Music City Mystique
SILVERDOTS@aol.com by kickme.cisco.com with ESMTP id KAA11193 for
all kinds of wittle aminals. How cute. Nice to see WGI and its assinine
*percussion* caption educating all about percussion. Didnt the MCM caption
head say he was a tube player? How much of the sheet is *visual design* this
year? This is hilarious. Its also a total percussion competitive fake. A
student rip-off. Do the wittle WGI aminals dance and wear make-up too? LOL
Thats right. Pansy wittle drum line that thinks dressing up in wittle
costumes is a percussion achievement. Here is education. Here is
competition. Here is total fake.
Ken Mazur
Frank Schoenbach
critters.
Frank
Waiting for this one to show up on America's and/or World's Funniest
Videos
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JSHawk2001
First of all...dont insult the THREE TIME WGI WORLD CHAMPIONS. OK????? They
just happen to be an inspiration to my line and I know some guys from Mystique.
When you insult them, you insult ME.
They are awesome. They have the guts to march 9 snares, 6 tenors and 6 basses
and they are CRYSTAL CLEAN. As for the show....Its the coolest I've ever seen.
It may not be the same as their last years show, but its PHAT. They whole
African Sahara thing is cool. The acting and even singing add something to the
show that NO OTHER LINE HAS.
Different is good, ok?
Now, you little terd, if you have a problem with Mystique, fine, they cant
please everybody. BUT if you bad-mouth them and their efforts,you stand alone
in your ideals. Drum line just isnt about "layin down beats", its a theatrical
show too. Whether you like it or not, it is.
Let me quote you here:
>Thats right. Pansy wittle drum line that thinks dressing up in wittle
>costumes is a percussion achievement. Here is education. Here is
>competition. Here is total fake.
WOW, Ken..you are an idiot.....Mystique has won the WGI World
Championships...what is it...THREE TIMES???? They are sponsored by Pearl and
God knows who else?
YOU are stupid.
Please do RAMD, my drum line, and myself a favor and pull your bottom lip over
your head and swallow. Lay off Mystique, okay?
On my piss-of-o-meter, this is a 3....if you keep this crap up...you may
recieve a 10. They lasy guy that did is currently re-learning how to walk in a
rehab center......
and besides....who the hell do YOU march for?.......you probably got cutt from
a junior corps.
HawK
Houston High School
9th Place WGI Finals 1998
Southeastern WGI Regional Champs 1999
Snare Line for eva'
Capital Regiment 99-?
Nikk Pilato
> Ken,....you are an asshole.
Whatever point you were trying to make was lost along with your
credibility when you opened up this post the way you did.
> First of all...dont insult the THREE TIME WGI WORLD CHAMPIONS. OK????? They
> just happen to be an inspiration to my line and I know some guys from Mystique.
> When you insult them, you insult ME.
Get over yourself. Ken has the right to post his opinion, just
like you posted your opinion, just like Xxxxx, annoying as he is, has a
right to his opinion.
> They are awesome. They have the guts to march 9 snares, 6 tenors and 6 basses
> and they are CRYSTAL CLEAN. As for the show....Its the coolest I've ever seen.
Just because *you* think it is COOL and PHAT *does not* mean
everyone on RAMD or anywhere else has to agree with you. It's called an
opinion, and everyone has a right to one, from the guy saying that Santa
Clara Vanguard is the best corps to the guy that insults Cadets every step
of the way. You can't come into a newsgroup, tell someone their opinion
is wrong, and then expect people to listen to your opinion.
> Different is good, ok?
Not always...look at New Coke vs Classic Coke. Maybe you are too
young to remember that.
> Now, you little terd, if you have a problem with Mystique, fine, they cant
> please everybody. BUT if you bad-mouth them and their efforts,you stand alone
> in your ideals. Drum line just isnt about "layin down beats", its a theatrical
> show too. Whether you like it or not, it is.
Your flame might have been better had you not misspelled "turd."
After that, it just lost whatever effect it may have had.
> WOW, Ken..you are an idiot.....Mystique has won the WGI World
> Championships...what is it...THREE TIMES???? They are sponsored by Pearl and
> God knows who else?
What does the # of championships have to do with anything? Notre
Dame has won more national titles than anyone else in college football,
does that mean that they are the best football team every year?
> YOU are stupid.
Doctor, heal thyself...
> Please do RAMD, my drum line, and myself a favor and pull your bottom lip over
> your head and swallow. Lay off Mystique, okay?
Why should he? It's his opinion. We have a right to them, you
know...I know that the silly American constitution can be a hassle
sometimes, but it's that same right that allows him his opinions that
allows you to make a spectacle of yourself.
> On my piss-of-o-meter, this is a 3....if you keep this crap up...you may
> recieve a 10. They lasy guy that did is currently re-learning how to walk in a
> rehab center......
Oh please...if you are going to threaten someone, try to come up
with a more original line. You should never make a threat of this sort
unless you know who you are dealing with. And I will sugegst to you that
you do *not* know who you are dealing with.
> and besides....who the hell do YOU march for?.......you probably got cutt from
> a junior corps.
Shows how little you know. Perhaps in the future you should do
some research into whom you are arguing with before you decide to tell us
how bad-ass you are. You might learn a thing or two. I won't post Ken's
resume, I'm sure someone else will, but I would suggest to you that Ken
was kicking ass on percussion when you were a little wiggly in your
father's sack. Sorry...you lose.
+++++++++++
Nikk Pilato
Phantom Regiment 1991-1994
Conductor 1994
http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~pilato_n/corps.html
"It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the
heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you."
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
-Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)
Eric Mills
Mystique. But if you analyze it you will see that it goes beyond that.
He is in all actuality slamming all WGI lines. Now Ken, I am aware of
your resume or at least some of it, but that gives you no right to slam
what over 20,000 kids hold dear. The practice hours, the sweat, the
tears. You have been involved in something that takes total control of
you and your time, correct? There is validity in what they do. Maybe it
is not for you...........fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But
slamming an entire community.........that is going a little too far. I
personally dig the WGI thing more than the PAS thing. I would rather see
kids get to explore their emotions on several different levels, not just
ramming notes. Several WGI lines can ram notes. Thunder, Mystique,
Dartmouth, Northglenn, BearCreek, West Carteret, and countless others, I
would put up against PAS caliber lines. But this is the avenue their
instructors decided to showcase their talents, so let it be. Tic for
some, Tac for others. It is called diversity, my god you are old enough
to be a little more mature than you are being. Have a good day!
Eric Mills
Director of Percussion- West Carteret High School
Carolina Thunder Staff
Former Carolina Crown Staff---yes, I have done the drum corps thing too!
>
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JSHawk2001
FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Secondly, he was not just saying he disliked their
show.....he was racking them over the coals. Dont insult the drummers, maybe
the directors and designers, just lay off the performers. They are out there
doin what they love the best, not caring whether or not they look like Zebras,
or whatever.
So, if RAMD would please move on to the next subject.....
HawK
CabanaTree
phenomenal. so was last year's! but everyone has their own opinion. I know a
guy in mystique so i'm partial but still people ARE allowed to post their
opinions but i think that that post was a little out of hand.
=) NO MORE FLAMING!!!
JSHawk2001
HawK
news.iland.net
Tabb, (your captionhead) I know for a fact that he wouldn't approve of you
going off on a newsgroup, whether you were right or not, and then putting
your corps name at the bottom. Chill, man.
Although I agree it's not cool for someone to go off on MCM on the
newsgroup, two wrongs don't make a right. And there is a point
there...just because your drumline may take a lot of inspiration from MCM,
doesn't mean by ANY STRETCH of the imagination that they are inherently an
icon of good drumming. I just don't want to see KT rip your head off,
that's all. He doesn't hype that kind of dogging.
Sagebrush
Colts tomline 96, 97, 98, 99
Jim Thompson
You Rock Dude!
-JIM-Colts Bass Line 95,96
Colts Bass Tech 97
ChiuMee
continuing decline. I see the usual suspects demagoguing away. Even the few
times I've visited, there always seems to be Ken Mazur being EXTRAORDINARILY,
unneccessarily, childish and rude. Guess that's in keeping with Internet
culture. Then somone always points out that Ken is a tremendous percussion
talent. As if that excuses really bad behavior. Yes, you have the right to
say anything, but not the taste or common sense to rely on the power of your
arguments (rather than your lack of tact).
Nikk Pilato
> The endlessly self-congratulatory, Narcissistic Nick Pilato wrote:
> >>Perhaps in the future you should do
> some research into whom you are arguing with before you decide to tell us
> how bad-ass you are. You might learn a thing or two. I won't post Ken's
> resume, I'm sure someone else will, but I would suggest to you that Ken
> was kicking ass on percussion when you were a little wiggly in your
> father's sack. Sorry...you lose. <
If you had more than a few brain cells left in that empty trash
bin you call a head you anonymous and cowardly little pule, you would
realize that I was not talking about myself in the quoted material below,
but about Ken.
Then again, you are a prototypical AOL dweeb, why should I expect
any better? Your cowardly kind knows nothing about honor and the like...
Why don't I just refer you to the following:
==================================================================
STANDARDIZED BONEHEAD REPLY FORM, Version 1.2
copyright whenever, by someone else.
(check all boxes that apply)
Dear:
[X] Clueless Newbie [X] Lamer [ ] Flamer
[X] Loser [ ] Spammer [ ] Troller
[ ] "Me too" er [ ] Pervert [X] Geek
[X] Freak [X] Nerd [ ] Elvis
[ ] Racist [ ] Fed [ ] WaReZ D00D
[ ] Fundamentalist [ ] Satanist [ ] Homeopath
[X] Stereotypical AOLer [ ] "Expert"
[ ] Unbearably self-righteous person
[ ] IBM/Mac Bigot [ ] Apologist [ ] Revisionist
[ ] Scientologist [X] Evolutionary Dead End
I took exception to your recent:
[ ] Email [X] Post to _rec.arts.marching.drumcorps__________________.
[ ] "News" article at _____________.
It was (check all that apply):
[X] Lame [X] Stupid [ ] Abusive
[X] Clueless [X] Idiotic [X] Brain-damaged
[X] Imbecilic [ ] Arrogant [ ] Malevolent
[ ] Contemptible [ ] Libelous [X] Ignorant
[ ] Moronic [ ] Boorish [ ] Fundamentalist
[X] Boring [X] Dim [X] Cowardly
[ ] Deceitful [ ] Demented [ ] Self-righteous
[ ] Crazy [ ] Weird [ ] Hypocritical
[ ] Loathsome [ ] Satanic [ ] Despicable
[ ] Belligerent [ ] Mind-numbing [ ] Maladroit
[X] Asinine [X] Pointless [ ] Annoying
[X] Much longer than any worthwhile thought of which you may be capable.
Your attention is drawn to the fact that:
[ ] You spammed
[ ] You defended a spammer
[ ] You doubtlessly violated the Terms of Service of your ISP
[ ] You posted what should have been emailed
[ ] You obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line
[X] You obviously know nothing about the topic at hand
[ ] You obviously know nothing about the culture of the newsgroup(s) in
which you posted
[ ] You obviously know nothing about E-mail
[ ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup
[ ] You place money above ethics
[ ] You self-righteously impose your religious beliefs on others
[ ] You self-righteously impose your racial beliefs on others
[ ] You made a blanket statement without backing it up
[ ] You made unwarranted assumptions
[X] You posted a "news article" without bothering to do basic research *1
[ ] You posted a binary in a non-binaries group
[ ] You don't know which group to post in
[ ] You made a post and didn't say anything
[X] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You crossposted to *way* too many newsgroups
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You are the reason some groups are moderated
[ ] You are the reason router firewalls were invented
[X] You posted in HTML
[ ] You cannot recognize sarcasm
[ ] You made an error and blamed someone else
[ ] You flamed someone for a spelling error.
[ ] And you misspelled something in the process
[ ] What you posted has been done before.
[ ] Not only that, it was also done better the last time.
[ ] You quoted an *entire* post in your reply
[ ] You quoted nothing, so nobody knows what you refer to
[ ] You started a long, stupid thread
[ ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread
[ ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it
[ ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam
[ ] You posted a URL that had nothing to do with the subject header
[ ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[ ] You posted low-IQ flamebait
[ ] You posted a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You said "me too" to something
[ ] You posted a "FAQ" that contains deliberately misleading information
[ ] You make no sense
[ ] Your sig/alias is dreadful
[ ] Your sig is longer than the body of your message
[ ] You posted a phone-sex ad
[ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme
[ ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal
[ ] You claimed that spamming was legal, even though nobody claimed it wasn't
[ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable. Each line just goes on and on, not stopping at 75 characters, making it hard to read.
[ ] You posted in ELitE CaPitALs to look k0OwL
[ ] You posted a message in ALL CAPS, and you don't even own a TRS-80
[ ] Your post was FULL of RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON
[ ] You referred to the Usenet Cabal (There is no Cabal)
[ ] You attempted a deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law
[ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of this newsgroup.
[ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of the Internet.
[ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of E-mail.
[X] You are a loser.
[X] This has been pointed out to you before.
[ ] You believe O.J. Simpson is innocent
[X] You have a direct genetic link to:
[ ] Sanford Wallace
[ ] John Grubor
[ ] Phil Lawlor
[ ] Stephen Boursy
[ ] Walt Rines
[ ] Zach Everett
[ ] All of the above
[X] ___Micheal Scmidt___
[ ] You are one of the scuzzwipes from the Woodside Literary Agency
[ ] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally
worthless that you are being flamed on general principles.
It is recommended that you:
[X] Get a clue
[X] Get a life
[ ] Go away
[ ] Grow up
[ ] Never post again
[ ] Consider how low the tolerance on the Internet is for Spam
[ ] Become Sanford Wallace's love slave
[ ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week
[ ] stop reading Usenet news and get a life
[ ] stop sending Email and get a life
[ ] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
[ ] Have your medication adjusted
[ ] Go to the top of a building and attempt to defy gravity
[X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] find a volcano and throw yourself in
[ ] get a gun and shoot yourself
[ ] poke your eye out with a stick
[X] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the FAQ
[X] stick to FidoNet and come back when you've grown up
[ ] Apologize to everybody in this newsgroup
[ ] Attempt to win this year's Darwin Award
[ ] Do not pass along your genes
[ ] consume excrement
[ ] consume excrement and thus expire
[ ] Perform solitary sexual congress
[ ] Post your tests to alt.test/misc.test
[ ] Put your home phone number in your ads from now on
[ ] Don't bother getting a new account when this one is pulled
[X] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what you're doing
[ ] Refrain from sending E-mail until you have a vague idea what you're doing
In Closing, I'd Like to Say:
[ ] You need to seek psychiatric help
[ ] Take your gibberish somewhere else
[X] *plonk*
[X] Learn how to post or stop reading Usenet
[ ] Learn what E-mail is for
[X] Go back to school and actually learn something
[ ] Stop using Bill Gates' software, and learn UNIX
[ ] Your mother wears army boots
[ ] You are possibly the most annoying person currently alive
[ ] _____you're very entertaining______
[ ] Most of the above
[ ] All of the above
[X] Some of the above, not including All of the above
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have a nice day.
ChiuMee
your prose shows that you've been taking lessons from your hero, Ken.
I quote my earlier post:
"Then somone always points out that Ken is a tremendous percussion
talent. As if that excuses really bad behavior. "
You, Nikk, are the antecedent for "someone." Now do you understand the
original post?
You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you....
Nikk Pilato
> your prose shows that you've been taking lessons from your hero, Ken.
Can you try to make sense from time to time? We'd all appreciate
it. BTW, I don't know Ken personally, nor to my knowledge have I ever
even corresponded with him...however, he does have the right to post (even
in a brusque manner) whatever the hell he wants, just like you have the
right to take offense to it.
> I quote my earlier post:
> "Then somone always points out that Ken is a tremendous percussion
> talent. As if that excuses really bad behavior. "
> You, Nikk, are the antecedent for "someone." Now do you understand the
> original post?
I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your "reply"
line, although I certainly do like the "endlessly self-congratulatory"
bit. It is the only thing in your post that resembled creativity.
> You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you....
Yeah, how silly of me to think that after you mention my name
twice. Love that Carly Simon, but I ain't Warren Beaty...
Jeff21378
>
> Whatever point you were trying to make was lost along with your
>credibility when you opened up this post the way you did.
>
Although calling MCM a "pansy wittle drumline" is acceptable ? BOTH were said
in poor taste but you chose to defend one, and attack the other...not making
sense here.
>> When you insult them, you insult ME.
>
> Get over yourself. Ken has the right to post his opinion, just
>like you posted your opinion, just like Xxxxx, annoying as he is, has a
>right to his opinion.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction right? Ken chose to
attack the performers themselves and thus received a reaction by a fan/friend
of the victim of said attack.
>Just because *you* think it is COOL and PHAT *does not* mean
>everyone on RAMD or anywhere else has to agree with you.
No, but there is a difference between expressing one's opinion and talking
trash.
>Your flame might have been better had you not misspelled "turd."
>After that, it just lost whatever effect it may have had...
If we're in Spelling 101...
>...And I will sugegst to you that
>you do *not* know who you are dealing with.
... in your own words...
>Doctor, heal thyself...
Petty...moving on...
>What does the # of championships have to do with anything?
Doesn't it mean that MCM knows how to coordinate shows that will attract the
judges attention and give them the winning score? Granted, I'm not their
biggest fan (because I competed against them), but you can't just get 3
consecutive championships on accident.
> I won't post Ken's
>resume, I'm sure someone else will, but I would suggest to you that Ken
>was kicking ass on percussion when you were a little wiggly in your
>father's sack. Sorry...you lose.
It doesn't matter who was kicking ass first, the fact of the matter is that Mr.
Mazur chose to attack MCM, and it obviously offended some people. I'm not
saying that this response is any better, because ( IMO ) it's not, but why
defend such obvious flame-bait ? Sure, Ken is probably a great player, but his
post is just lacking in class, and of poor taste. Come on Nikk, you can't
praise one, and denounce another and expect to make a whole lot of sense. -Zeke
Jeff Sanders
'97 Phantom Regiment Winter Drumline
'98 Blue Knights Perc. Ensemble
'97-'98 Pioneer
James Christian
> Frank
> Waiting for this one to show up on America's and/or World's Funniest
> Videos
or When Stuffed Animals Attack...
James
James Christian
> Please do RAMD, my drum line, and myself a favor and pull your bottom lip over
> your head and swallow. Lay off Mystique, okay?
> On my piss-of-o-meter, this is a 3....if you keep this crap up...you may
> recieve a 10. They lasy guy that did is currently re-learning how to walk in a
> rehab center......
> and besides....who the hell do YOU march for?.......you probably got cutt from
> a junior corps.
*SIGH!* I get so tired of doing this everytime someone makes uninformed threats.
Here's Ken Mazur's resume (as of November 1997):
********************************
Biography
Ken Mazur Marching, teaching and judging history.
PERFORMANCE :
Brass-A-Tears Jr. Centerline, Mi. 1962 1963 1964 1965 (Maczuga)
Vanguard Sr. St. Clair Shores, Mi. 1966 1967 1968 (Tuomey)
Diplomats Jr. Roseville, Mi. 1968 1969 1970 (Leis, Tuomey, Malcolm)
Vanguard Jr. St. Clair Shores, Mi. 1971 1972 1973 (Tuomey)
Glassmen Jr. Toledo,Oh. 1974 (folded Aug 1) (Petty)
Saginaires Jr. Saginaw, Mi. 1974
Glassmen Toledo, Oh. 1975 (Petty)
Phantom Regiment Jr. Rockford, IL. 1976 (Hurley)
Royal Lancers Sr. Wyandotte, Mi. 1988 1989
Drum Set : 1962 - 1997 (Genoa, Wallace) Performed with numerous music
ensembles mainly jazz, big band, fusion and rock. Most recently with
"Atlantis" (Top 40) and "Headin South" (Country and Western).
Inventor and perfector of the Multiple Pitched Quad Bass Drum Set 1972-1997;
an experiment testing the musical limits of the human mind and body with
coordination and rudimental drumming. Perfected many advanced Olympic style
training techniques for speed, coordination, endurance and execution thought
processes.
INDIVIDUAL COMPETITION :
1968-1976 Winner of 35 local, regional and state snare drum and drum set
contests.
1972 2nd place American Guild of Music National Drum Set Championship.
Indianapolis, Indiana
1973 4th place All-American National Snare Drum Championship
Sarnia Ontario, Canada
1974 3rd place DCI World Snare Drum Championship Ithaca, New York
1975 3rd place DCI World Snare Drum Championship Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
1976 lst place DCI World Champion Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
INSTRUCTION :
1975 1976 Leamington Townsmen, Windsor Guardsmen Ontario Canada
Caption Head Arranger/Instructor
1977 Windsor Guardsmen Caption Head Arranger/Instructor
1978 1979 Phantom Regiment Execution Instructor
1982 Golden Garrison, Ypsilanti Mi. Caption Head
Arranger/Instructor
Most Improved Drum Corp, Great Lakes Drum Corp Association
DCI Class A Finalists
1984 Phantom Regiment Execution Instructor (1st tour only)
1991 1992 Southgate High School Caption Head Arranger/Instructor
Undefeated MCBDA Percussion Champions
1993-1997 Consulting, clinics and RAMD trouble maker.
JUDGING :
1976-1997 Drum Corp and Marching Band. Experienced in all percussion
adjudication areas including the tick sheet. Indoor
percussion and individual contests. Known as a tough judge
to please.
1987-1992 Percussion Caption Head, Great Lakes Judging Association
Responsible for sheet interpretation, judges tolerances,
training of new prospectives, rewriting of percussion score
sheets to reflect a more performance oriented approach to
judging high school students.
1989 President - Great Lakes Judges Association
Liason to band directors and judging circuit. Oversee
caption heads and judging concerns. Serve as scratching
post for nervous band directors.
Handle complaints and watch over contractual situations.
AUTHOR: The Technique and Mechanics of Competitive Rudimental Snare
Drumming. 380pgs 1978
The Basic Technique of Rudimental Drumming 105pgs. 1980
ART AND DESIGN EXPERIENCE :
President - Silverdot Illustration. 1984 to present. Provide commercial and
residential delineation services to architectural, interior design, and
engineering firms. Design and illustrate presentations for developers,
municipalities and advertising agencies. Specialize in casein tempera - an
egg-based fast drying media - marker, water color, pencil broadside, oils and
ink renderings. Excellent freehand sketching and perspective layout.
Construction documents and design available on request.
Harold Weeks - Freehand sketching and composition. ( U of Detroit)
Morris Jackson - Architectural perspective and delineation. Rapid brush
techniques.
Artist for Smith, Hintchmen and Grylls for 25 years, Detroit, Mi.
Howard Etter - Design and delineation. Marker technique. Human figure
sketching. (Arch. delineator)
Richard Rush - Basic design and proportion. (Architect)
Dale Ferriby - Basic design and proportion (Architect)
Harvey Ferraro - Architectural delineation and quick freehand sketching.
(Architect)
Shirley Hathaway - Oil painting, water colors and composition. Scarab Club,
Detroit
Dan Keller - Oil painting and composition. Scarab Club, Detroit.
Lewis King - Watercolorist. Technique and execution. Armada, Mi.
Lawrence Technological University - Bachelor of Architecture
Since so many corps run around the field these days and claim demand, here is
my competitive running resume with best finishes :
Marathons: 1996 Los Angeles (4204 / 16239) , 1994 1995 1996 Detroit,
1994 Columbus, 1996 1997 Walt Disney, 1996 Pittsburg
Half Marathons: 1996 Las Vegas (978 / 2400)
10 milers: The Crim, Flint Mi. (1896 / 5112), 1995 The Race From Hell, Hell,
Mi.
1995 1996 Michigan Big 10 Run, Ann Arbor Mi.
1997 First of America Classic, St. Petersburg, Fl.
10K and 5 milers : Cooper River Bridge Run, Charleston SC. (2482 / 12207)
1993 1994 1995 1996 Oak Apple Run, Royal Oak, Mi.
(403/1334)
1993 1994 1995 1996 Allen Park Street Fair, Mi. (227 / 631)
Medalist : 1994 1995 1996 Michigan Firecracker Mile - Open Division Clawson,
Mi.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> *SIGH!* I get so tired of doing this everytime someone makes uninformed
threats.
>
> Here's Ken Mazur's resume (as of November 1997):
>
James,
While Mr Hawk's tirade was silly and obviously uninformed, Ken's was just as
bad, and i fact was the trigger for the response. When you (the royal you, not
the you-you <G>) attack in a childlike fashion as Ken did, expect a childlike
reaction back.
Mike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Nikk Pilato
matter who was kicking ass first, the fact of the matter is that Mr. >
Mazur chose to attack MCM, and it obviously offended some people. I'm not
> saying that this response is any better, because ( IMO ) it's not, but
why > defend such obvious flame-bait ? Sure, Ken is probably a great
player, but his > post is just lacking in class, and of poor taste. Come
on Nikk, you can't > praise one, and denounce another and expect to make a
whole lot of sense. -Zeke
I wasn't defending Ken's OPINION, simply his right to express it.
I do not agree with his style, but it is his right. If someone responded
to Hawk the way he responded to Ken, I would be defending Hawk's right to
post.
Just because I defend someone's right to post whatever is in their
mind, whether it be ignorance or hate (like a certain someone we all
know), DOES NOT mean I approve of the message, or agree with it.
+++++++++++
Nikk Pilato
Center for Music Research
The Florida State University
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http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~pilato_n/rsfc.htm
Help us help you. Read the FAQ!
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"I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
-T.S. Eliot
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."
-T.S. Eliot
Eric Mills
young people egos and aspirations. You just helped him become an even bigger jerk in
my eyes.
James Christian wrote:
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
James Christian
> So, he above many people, should understand how detrimental it is not to tear down
> young people egos and aspirations. You just helped him become an even bigger jerk in
> my eyes.
He also has the experience to see how certain people have corrupted the system, and it
makes him mad. It makes me mad too. Marching activities are supposed to be for the
performers, not the adult designers.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
Jeff21378
>system, and it
>makes him mad.
Sure he does, and he should also have the experience and knowledge enough to
use good taste. I personally don't know how you can defend his statements, they
were totally uncalled for and lacked any dignity. They may be his opinion, and
you may agree with him, but I don't see how slamming on the members gets him
anywhere but under people's skin (which may be his objective but is just dumb).
>Marching activities are supposed to be for the
>performers, not the adult designers.
Really? If designers and instructors got nothing out of the activity, WHY WOULD
THEY DO IT? Probably for the money...right. Actually, doesn't it go both ways?
Performers strive to be the tops in their field, designers and instructors do
the same. Granted, what's hip to some isn't always hip to someone else, but
bagging a group (performers AND staff) that has worked very hard to achieve 3
world championships in a row is ignorant. I've said it before and I'll say it
again, I've competed against them and I'm not their biggest fan, but THEY MUST
BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT TO WIN 3 IN A ROW. Accidents like that just don't
happen. Actually, I really think that his beef may be with the judges who have
"corrupted the system" or whatever. Don't bag on the performers and staffs who
are working hard to put out a product that they feel the judging community
would like to see and that they feel is a product that is worthwhile to the
students learning. Don't get me wrong, it's not all for the judges, and if it
is to MCM that's their business, but it IS a competition and if the competition
isn't good enough for Mr. Mazur then may he put his line where his typing is
and prove it. Not a threat/challange/bag , just prove a reason to talk
trash...whoop-up on these lines...until you do that comments like those are
just ignorant statements. -Zeke
Jeff Sanders
'99 Cheerin' for my Bash Bro. Hammer in MCM and my homies from BKPE in Dayton.
RBrown4431
system belongs to the members(groups) and rules and parameters are determined
by them.
Sorry, the system is not corrupt, it is working very well, growing and
thriving, and drawing more and more young people to performing each year.
Further, the activities are for the participants, none more important than the
other, but for all participants. Spectators are welcome to cheer.
Don't tell me a bunch of hogwash about perfume & costumes. Its only important
in your eyes. It is not important to anyone else.
Don't give me crap about credentials. Thats a one sided discussion.
James & Ken...I invite you to come to any indoor contest I am at, and sit and
talk with me. I think you need to see the activity first hand lately. Its not
what you think. Until you have witnessed the current state of the art, please
simmer down the despicable dialog.
Rick Brown
James Christian
> First off, this post was sounding as if it were directed towards
> Mystique. But if you analyze it you will see that it goes beyond that.
> He is in all actuality slamming all WGI lines.
He's not slamming the lines. He's slamming the judging system and the ridiculous
designers who come up with all of these stupid visual gimmicks. THEY are the ones
hurting the kids, NOT Ken Mazur.
> Now Ken, I am aware of
> your resume or at least some of it, but that gives you no right to slam
> what over 20,000 kids hold dear. The practice hours, the sweat, the
> tears. You have been involved in something that takes total control of
> you and your time, correct? There is validity in what they do. Maybe it
> is not for you...........fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But
> slamming an entire community.........that is going a little too far.
I applaud their efforts (and I'm sure Ken Mazur does too), but it's a shame that their
time is wasted by changing into costumes, painting sets, and putting on makeup when
they COULD be actually learning how to play.
> I personally dig the WGI thing more than the PAS thing.
There was no difference at PAS this year. Both have completely sold out.
> I would rather see
> kids get to explore their emotions on several different levels, not just
> ramming notes.
Come on! Emotions aren't competitive. This is a competition! You would judge based
on how many emotions the kids experience? What's the point of even playing then?
There's no reward for actual playing achievement? Obviously not.
> Tic for some, Tac for others.
'Tics' for me, thanks. :-)
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> They may be his opinion, and
> you may agree with him, but I don't see how slamming on the members gets him
> anywhere but under people's skin (which may be his objective but is just dumb).
The objective is creating awareness of the fraud of the whole marching field. It
claims to be "for the kids" and "educational", but they're not really teaching much
of anything, other than how to manipulate the system. Btw, he didn't slam the
members, just the ridiculous concept.
> >Marching activities are supposed to be for the
> >performers, not the adult designers.
>
> Really? If designers and instructors got nothing out of the activity, WHY WOULD
> THEY DO IT? Probably for the money...right. Actually, doesn't it go both ways?
People can enjoy teaching and designing for the activity, that's fine. But the
designers shouldn't be on the score sheets!
> Actually, I really think that his beef may be with the judges who have
> "corrupted the system" or whatever. Don't bag on the performers and staffs who
> are working hard to put out a product that they feel the judging community
> would like to see and that they feel is a product that is worthwhile to the
> students learning.
The staffs are "playing the game". They're just as guilty.
> Don't get me wrong, it's not all for the judges, and if it
> is to MCM that's their business, but it IS a competition and if the competition
> isn't good enough for Mr. Mazur then may he put his line where his typing is
> and prove it.
Under the current system, he has nothing to gain and everything to lose. He's
already proven his abilities many times. Winning wouldn't add much to his already
enormous resume, but losing could hurt him quite a lot on RAMD and other places.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> While Ken may be able to see how "individuals" have "corrupted the system, the
> system belongs to the members(groups) and rules and parameters are determined
> by them.
Well, the kids aren't being taught how to play very well, and that's a shame.
There are hardly any competitive rudimental players left, and those that are get
dumped by visual judges and/or anti-rudimentalists.
> Further, the activities are for the participants, none more important than the
> other, but for all participants. Spectators are welcome to cheer.
No it's not. They're NOT learning how to play well. Dressing up and putting on
makeup isn't teaching them any drum skills.
> Don't tell me a bunch of hogwash about perfume & costumes. Its only important
> in your eyes. It is not important to anyone else.
Then why do they do it? They could spend all of that time learning how to play
instead of painting sets and sewing costumes.
> Don't give me crap about credentials. Thats a one sided discussion.
The same applies for MCM then.
> James & Ken...I invite you to come to any indoor contest I am at, and sit and
> talk with me. I think you need to see the activity first hand lately. Its not
> what you think. Until you have witnessed the current state of the art, please
> simmer down the despicable dialog.
Where will you be at? I'm planning to go to the shows near me.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
BDogg09
Blue Knight Bass line? you know, 3 of the 4 are from Phantom don't you?
bDogg
98' Blue Knights PE Bass Line
98' Blue Knights Cymbal Line
99' Blue Knights PE Bass Line
99' Phantom Regiment Bass Line
James Christian
> how abou that group from Denver. the uh...uh...Blu Knights, and how about that
> Blue Knight Bass line? you know, 3 of the 4 are from Phantom don't you?
Who are you responding to?
Michael Cahill
RBrown4431 wrote to Ken Mazur
> Don't tell me a bunch of hogwash about perfume & costumes. Its only important
> in your eyes. It is not important to anyone else.
----------------
. . . . we interrupt this flame to bring you late breaking hypocrisy . .
. .
======================================================
Subject: Re: Please help us...we are desperate.....please..have a heart
Date: 11 Mar 1999 13:33:00 GMT
From: rbrow...@aol.com (RBrown4431)
Organization:AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.percussion
Welcome back Ken, we've missed you.
While you flame violently, you are not off target. ITS ABOUT DRUMMING.
If its not, get out.
Rick Brown
=======================================================
. . . we now return you to your regularly scheduled flame, already in
progress . .
--------------------
> Don't give me crap about credentials. Thats a one sided discussion.
>
> James & Ken...I invite you to come to any indoor contest I am at, and sit and
> talk with me. I think you need to see the activity first hand lately. Its not
> what you think. Until you have witnessed the current state of the art, please
> simmer down the despicable dialog.
>
> Rick Brown
Reel Feel
>FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Eveyone EXCEPT Ken, right? That's what you would have us believe.
Matt
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> He's not slamming the lines. He's slamming the judging system and the
ridiculous
> designers who come up with all of these stupid visual gimmicks. THEY are the
ones
> hurting the kids, NOT Ken Mazur.
>
Here is a direct quote: "Pansy wittle drum line that thinks dressing up in
wittle costumes is a percussion achievement." Ken didn't mention the designers
or judges at all; it was totally about the lines themselves.
>
> I applaud their efforts (and I'm sure Ken Mazur does too), but it's a shame
that their
> time is wasted by changing into costumes, painting sets, and putting on makeup
when
> they COULD be actually learning how to play.
>
In the grand scheme of things, "changing into costumes, painting sets, and
putting on makeup " aren't all that time-consuming.
>
> Come on! Emotions aren't competitive. This is a competition! You would
judge based
> on how many emotions the kids experience?
The emotions are expressed through their music. Ups and downs and every
emotion in between.
> What's the point of even playing then?
> There's no reward for actual playing achievement? Obviously not.
>
Sure, the reward for performance is the emotions generated by the kids, and
the experience they have performing their show. The judges opinions are
secondary, yet also a part of the experience, to be sure.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, the kids aren't being taught how to play very well, and that's a shame.
The kids aren't being taught very well? Tell that to the Dartmouth line, and
the others who are out there every week 'percussioning' up a storm.
> There are hardly any competitive rudimental players left, and those that are
get dumped by visual judges and/or anti-rudimentalists.
>
How so? If you compare the marching lines to the stand-still percussion
ensembles, you see a VAST difference in style, between mostly rudimental
marching lines and 'orchestral' percussion ensembles.
>
> No it's not. They're NOT learning how to play well. Dressing up and putting
on
> makeup isn't teaching them any drum skills.
>
You make them sound like cross dressers! :-)
Seriously, those 'icings on the cake' of costumes and such have never taken
the place of good solid performance. they can add to the enjoyment of the
show, but without the performance, it's an empty shell.
>
> Then why do they do it?
Ever hear of 'fun'? Maybe they LIKE the idea of putting on a great 'total
show', with good solid playing as well as interesting visual components.
JSHawk2001
THANK YOU!! Its about time someone shut them up!
Sincerely,
John Hawkins
Houston High School
9th Place WGI Finals 1998
Michael Cahill
mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The kids aren't being taught very well? Tell that to the Dartmouth line, and
> the others who are out there every week 'percussioning' up a storm.
I was at WGI semis and finals last year Mike, were you? Doubt it. Yet
again you're making big statements about the entire indoor activity just
like you do with DCI. My guess, you judged or attended a couple shows in
New Jersey and that is the extent of your knowledge about indoor lines.
Dartmouth is the exception, not the rule. For every Dartmouth and King
Phillip and Northglenn there were ten or twelve lines that weren't
playing nearly as well. But they all had costumes and props. The point?
If you can't teach the kids to drum, don't bother with the Theater. You
end up doing BOTH poorly. It's not the member's fault that they aren't
being taught how to play, so spare me any "trashing the kids" arguments.
My point is that these members deserve to be taught how to play.
> How so? If you compare the marching lines to the stand-still percussion
> ensembles, you see a VAST difference in style, between mostly rudimental
> marching lines and 'orchestral' percussion ensembles.
Again I'll have to ask you to list all these rudimental lines. Don't
just list Dartmouth or King Phillip. Name the lines and the notes Mike.
> Seriously, those 'icings on the cake' of costumes and such have never taken
> the place of good solid performance.
I suggest you head to Dayton so you'll have the beginnings of an
informed view. Too many of the high school lines were having trouble
with basic technique and cleanliness, yet they were all doing "theater"
shows. Most don't have anywhere near enough cash to keep up in the
costume department with lines like Dartmouth and King Phillip. The kid
who is cheering you on right now - John - he had to go onto
rec.arts.marching.percussion to ask for donations so his line could make
it to Dayton. Why? Here are his own words?
=========================================================
Subject: Please help us...we are desperate.....please..have a heart
Date: 9 Mar 1999 00:36:33 GMT
From: jshaw...@aol.com (JSHawk2001)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.percussion
> Competeing on the Scholastic World Class with Dartmouth High School and company is
> expensive. We are already in debt and are in desperate need of money OR equipment.
> We will take ANYTHING. We would be greatfull for anything we recieve and we will not
> let it go to waste, nor will we let you down.
=====================================================
How's that for a fair "competition"? The more this becomes "theater",
the more it will cost, and fewer and fewer lines will be able to truly
compete. If it was just about playing and marching you have a fair
starting point, but keep adding props and costumes and you tip the
balance to favor lines who have cash to begin with.
> > Then why do they do it?
>
> Ever hear of 'fun'? Maybe they LIKE the idea of putting on a great 'total
> show', with good solid playing as well as interesting visual components.
Or maybe it's much more about the designers than it is about the
members.
MC
Martin McIsaac
Guard/Percussion show I was at. With the exception of Dartmouth H.S. (a
well funded, highly organized, drum corps staff led organization), I
stood there open mouthed.
Ridiculous props, costumes and "instrument abuse," was the order of the
day. Wild, match-gripped clubbing of kevlar from shoulder height, is not
drumming.
At least now I know what pretentious Community Theatre Director's do in
off season.
Marty McIsaac
mik...@my-dejanews.com
mca...@mindspring-vikingskit.com wrote:
>
> I was at WGI semis and finals last year Mike, were you? Doubt it. Yet
> again you're making big statements about the entire indoor activity just
> like you do with DCI. My guess, you judged or attended a couple shows in
> New Jersey and that is the extent of your knowledge about indoor lines.
>
I also saw a video of a bunch of WGI lines, from EVERY class, from percussion
ensemble thru World.
> Dartmouth is the exception, not the rule. For every Dartmouth and King
> Phillip and Northglenn there were ten or twelve lines that weren't
> playing nearly as well.
Those are the best; of course the rest aren't up to that level. That's why
they ARE the best.
> But they all had costumes and props. The point?
> If you can't teach the kids to drum, don't bother with the Theater. You
> end up doing BOTH poorly.
No reason a developing line can't develop doing both. They aren't mutually
exclusive. You can be learning drumming basics while learning the basics of
theatrical/visual presentation.
> It's not the member's fault that they aren't
> being taught how to play, so spare me any "trashing the kids" arguments.
> My point is that these members deserve to be taught how to play.
>
They are; it's not an 'overnight' thing. It takes time to develop.
>
> Again I'll have to ask you to list all these rudimental lines. Don't
> just list Dartmouth or King Phillip. Name the lines and the notes Mike.
>
Look at every line that competed at WGI, in every marching class.
>
> Too many of the high school lines were having trouble
> with basic technique and cleanliness, yet they were all doing "theater"
> shows.
So? They are developing skills over time. It's not an all or nothing thing;
it's a development process that takes time.
> Most don't have anywhere near enough cash to keep up in the
> costume department with lines like Dartmouth and King Phillip.
Those are not cash-rich towns, BTW. They make most of their costumes and
props themseleves, at least Dartmouth does. We're talking Mass. here, where
prop 2 1/2 or whatever it was called nearly destroyed the arts in public
schools. Dartmouth does LOTS of fundraising for financing and uses lots of
student/parental skills to create their props and costumes. I assume King
Philip does the same, but I don't know for sure about them.
> The kid
> who is cheering you on right now - John - he had to go onto
> rec.arts.marching.percussion to ask for donations so his line could make
> it to Dayton. Why? Here are his own words?
>
> =========================================================
> Subject: Please help us...we are desperate.....please..have a heart
> Date: 9 Mar 1999 00:36:33 GMT
> From: jshaw...@aol.com (JSHawk2001)
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.percussion
>
> > Competeing on the Scholastic World Class with Dartmouth High School and
company is
> > expensive. We are already in debt and are in desperate need of money OR
equipment.
> > We will take ANYTHING. We would be greatfull for anything we recieve and we
will not
> > let it go to waste, nor will we let you down.
> =====================================================
>
> How's that for a fair "competition"? The more this becomes "theater",
> the more it will cost, and fewer and fewer lines will be able to truly
> compete. If it was just about playing and marching you have a fair
> starting point, but keep adding props and costumes and you tip the
> balance to favor lines who have cash to begin with.
>
The cost of the props isn't the primary factor in going or not going; it's the
travel and living costs while there that cost the bucks. Sure, it does cost to
build props and sew costumes for materials, but those costs can be managed and
controlled by the staff and parents, using in-house skills to do the manual
labor.
The total cost of going to events like Dayton is expensive, props or not.
> > > Then why do they do it?
> >
> > Ever hear of 'fun'? Maybe they LIKE the idea of putting on a great 'total
> > show', with good solid playing as well as interesting visual components.
>
> Or maybe it's much more about the designers than it is about the
> members.
>
It always comes back to that; putting down the designers as some sort or
Svengali-like people who con the groups (band/corps/pecussion/guard) into
doing things they shouldn't. It's just plain fun.
Another question. Why do you even GO to these events, if you like one or two
groups for every 10 or 12 you don't like?
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
>
> No reason a developing line can't develop doing both. They aren't mutually
> exclusive. You can be learning drumming basics while learning the basics of
> theatrical/visual presentation.
>
Every minute spent learning how to "act" is a minute wasted not learning
how to drum. Sorry, it does degrade the activity.
James Christian
> > Well, the kids aren't being taught how to play very well, and that's a shame.
>
> The kids aren't being taught very well? Tell that to the Dartmouth line, and
> the others who are out there every week 'percussioning' up a storm.
I haven't seen any of the WGI Champion lines, but I've seen PAS's best. I can
personally attest that individual technique is not being taught to any high level.
It is the factory produced "let's crank out a drum line" technique that is
prevalent in all of the marching idioms today. And if you actually control your
sticks, judges will tell you that you're archaic, and they'll dump you.
> > There are hardly any competitive rudimental players left, and those that are
> > get dumped by visual judges and/or anti-rudimentalists.
>
> How so? If you compare the marching lines to the stand-still percussion
> ensembles, you see a VAST difference in style, between mostly rudimental
> marching lines and 'orchestral' percussion ensembles.
Not really. There's usually the opener--a bunch of pit stuff with a bit of
tippy-tap accompaniment parts from the battery, which hint that something might be
coming. Then there's usually a lengthy slow pit solo. Both of these are not
really that much different from the orchestral stuff. The main difference is
usually the closer. The first half of it is often still 'tippy-tap' stuff, but
then the solo sections and the big finale end it off--the only real display of
rudimental drumming. Of course, this isn't true for everyone, but this seems to be
the basic formula for most shows I've seen.
> > No it's not. They're NOT learning how to play well. Dressing up and putting
> > on makeup isn't teaching them any drum skills.
>
> You make them sound like cross dressers! :-)
>
> Seriously, those 'icings on the cake' of costumes and such have never taken
> the place of good solid performance. they can add to the enjoyment of the
> show, but without the performance, it's an empty shell.
Yes, many drum lines across the country are proving just that.
> > Then why do they do it?
>
> Ever hear of 'fun'? Maybe they LIKE the idea of putting on a great 'total
> show', with good solid playing as well as interesting visual components.
I always thought it was more fun to have the audience applaud for my actual
talents, not the props I brought. (I've experienced both.) Maybe that's just me
though.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
"Impress 'em with what you can do--not with what you bring."
Nadstheman
>
u ass.
props to bk ensemble bass.
check out the unison singles in their break
nad
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I haven't seen any of the WGI Champion lines, but I've seen PAS's best. I can
> personally attest that individual technique is not being taught to any high
level.
Well, I have seen Dartmouth and some others live and on video, and they DO
have very good technique.
> It is the factory produced "let's crank out a drum line" technique that is
> prevalent in all of the marching idioms today.
That is NEVER the way any instructor I've ever seen approaches his/her job.
You may not like what comes out of the lines today, but all of the ones I've
seen care a LOT for the folks they teach and do what they consider to be the
best possible job. Granted, most of the folks I come into contact with are
through the HS lines, but many of them are also DC instructors as well.
>
> > How so? If you compare the marching lines to the stand-still percussion
> > ensembles, you see a VAST difference in style, between mostly rudimental
> > marching lines and 'orchestral' percussion ensembles.
>
> Not really. There's usually the opener--a bunch of pit stuff with a bit of
> tippy-tap accompaniment parts from the battery, which hint that something
might be
> coming. Then there's usually a lengthy slow pit solo. Both of these are not
> really that much different from the orchestral stuff. The main difference is
> usually the closer. The first half of it is often still 'tippy-tap' stuff,
but
> then the solo sections and the big finale end it off--the only real display of
> rudimental drumming. Of course, this isn't true for everyone, but this seems
to be
> the basic formula for most shows I've seen.
>
The percussion ensembles I've seen choose pieces that are each in-and-of
themselves full works of music. The variety comes in the various pieces and
instrumentation they require.
> > Ever hear of 'fun'? Maybe they LIKE the idea of putting on a great 'total
> > show', with good solid playing as well as interesting visual components.
>
> I always thought it was more fun to have the audience applaud for my actual
> talents, not the props I brought.
What's wrong with applauding for everything?
Frank Schoenbach
How can bass drums, each tuned differently, play in unison?
RBrown4431
>I haven't seen any of the WGI Champion lines<
How do you like this. Finally a truthful statement from the trio of WGI-hate
team.
>I can
>personally attest that individual technique is not being taught to any high
>level.
>It is the factory produced "let's crank out a drum line" technique that is
>prevalent in all of the marching idioms today.
This is from the one guy who believes Kenny Mazur has all the answers and
follows him blindly.
>And if you actually control your
>sticks, judges will tell you that you're archaic, and they'll dump you
PROVE THIS.
>I always thought it was more fun to have the audience applaud for my actual
>talents, not the props I brought. (I've experienced both.) Maybe that's
>just me
>though.
I have been to lots and lots of PAS and WGI shows. Never has a prop gotten any
applause. Had you seen the activity, which you previously admitted you have not
seen, you would have heard applause for the ensembles' performance, which
includes designs, intentions and performance.
This has been a constant thread of "I elevate myself by diminishing those I
don't." Please stop being the hypocritcal liar you have now shown yourself to
be. Continue to practice in your little room and don't perform.
Rick Brown
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> What's wrong with applauding for everything?
Creates false self-esteem.
Gpsyqueen7
> high
>school bands, orchestra, and percussion ensemble.
>strictly with high school percussion.
Ok, I'm still on the "rec. arts marching. drumcorps" newsgroup, and yet I keep
seeing things about band here? I thought this was a Drum corps newsgroup, no?
Am I wrong?
CentrSnare
>
> Creates false self-esteem.
So let's just not clap at all and have kids who spent countless hours on what
they love to do, feel like they have wasted ALL their time and all that what
they do is unappreciated!
That is truly one of the stupidest statments I have heard on this thread! Well
everything that comes from you, James, and Ken is, so that isn't saying much.
You guys never cease to amaze us with your supierior intellect!
Aaron
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> >> What's wrong with applauding for everything?
> >
> > Creates false self-esteem.
>
> So let's just not clap at all and have kids who spent countless hours on what
> they love to do, feel like they have wasted ALL their time and all that what
> they do is unappreciated!
>
James Carville had it wrong. "IT'S A COMPETITION, STUPID!"
By your way of thinking, pass everyone in public schools. Wouldn't
want to hurt someones feelings by failing anyone.
>
> That is truly one of the stupidest statments I have heard on this thread! Well
> everything that comes from you, James, and Ken is, so that isn't saying much.
>
So, why don't you light my dark empty head with something brilliant?
I'm waiting.
>
> You guys never cease to amaze us with your supierior intellect!
Is this not a forum for ideas? Oh, it's a forum for "Best Fuck on a Drum
Corps Bus With a Rookie Member" threads. Sorry. My mistake.
>
>
> Aaron
Martin McIsaac
Snip.........
> I have been to lots and lots of PAS and WGI shows. Never has a prop gotten any
> applause. Had you seen the activity, which you previously admitted you have not
> seen, you would have heard applause for the ensembles' performance, which
> includes designs, intentions and performance.
Designs?? Intentions?? New terminolgy?? what ever happened to
"execution, dicipline, technique, difficulty."
> This has been a constant thread of "I elevate myself by diminishing those I
> don't."
I've met two of the three individuals you mention in this thread. I've
yet to run into Ken. (I look forward to it too) Neither of these people
are jerkoffs who get off trashing others for their own "elavation." You
might want to consider that maybe these two are not speaking of the
performers but of the watering down of the entire activity by those
teaching it.
Why is it, that anyone who questions the design and horseshit direction
the marching activity is taking, is automatically "dumping on the
performers?"
I've gone to shows, I perform now and began drumming over thirty years
ago. My last close observation of this "indoor whatever" was just a few
days ago.
The bando parents and artsy crowd may swoon over the theatre-drumming
nonsense being presented, but they don't know any better. They can't be
expected to know what difficult well executed drumming is. They've never
seen it!!!
I'm mystified as to why anyone would want to watch kids run around in
Zorro costumes while they pound the hell out of a set of Pearls.
Regardless, this is not drumming!!!If drum corps continues to drift
towards this theatre nonsense while continuing to give up it's unique
elements, IT DESERVES TO DIE!!!
Sell this educational, emotion packed, peak percussion experience
someplace else. There are wayyyy too many people in this newsgroup who
know what real competition/drumming is all about.
Please stop being the hypocritcal liar you have now shown yourself to
> be. Continue to practice in your little room and don't perform.
I've seen James play. He's LIGHT YEARS better than anything I've seen
this winter. He's also painfully earnest and sincere, with an obvious
passion for druming and the marching activity. I have some hope for the
future knowing that there are a few young people like him out there.
Because long after the opportunists have made their reps and moved onto
to a newer and better heeled group of suckers, it'll be the few
passionate individuals like James, who will make sure this activity
doesn't die.
Just maybe Rick, when it comes to marching percussion, drum corps
etc...James and many others clearly see that, "The King has no clothes
on."
Marty McIsaac
RBrown4431
important, more than design on the PA sheet. Discipline, technique excellence
and difficulty are all clearly addressed on all sheets. Add more things to
heighten the experience. Sorry if you don't like it. Many many do and many many
more percussionist students are participating than ever. This is a valid form
of performance. Students are enriched, audiences are entertained. My guess is
there are a lot of students who are drumming, practicing and learning than if
this activity didn't exist.
Sorry you don't like it. There are many activities I don't like, some related
to percussion. But because so many are enjoying it, learning from it and
growing because of it, its place in time is special to them...IT DOESN'T
DESERVE TO DIE.
I am glad you support James. Is he playing now? Is he performing? Why is your
opinion, James' opinion and any others who may want to take this tack any more
valid than any others? Why is it that any opinion and belief that isn't inline
with these are considered invalid and fake?
I might be willing to admit there are some elements of rudimental percussion
performance on a horizontal surface that may not make an appearance in the WGI
activity. Possibly that it isn't what you think it ought to be. But that
doesn't diminish its validity and its quality. I don't like golf, but its a
real sport, with real fans and real participants who believe in it
passionately. Because I don't believe in it....should I stand up and say...
>IT DESERVES TO DIE!!!
You can have your opinions, I have mine. We will argue till next March. But the
activity is real, and many students are performing who aren't otherwise given
the opportunity. What's your real problem?
Rick Brown
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with applauding for everything?
>
> Creates false self-esteem.
>
Applaud the efforts of every individual on the floor, from top to bottom.
They all work hard, and they deserve the respect and admiration of the
audience. The absolute achievement will vary by the experience level, but
that is totally unimportant. The fact that they are participating is all that
REALLY counts.
It's NOT creating 'false self-esteem' to applaud the efforts. It's a just
reward for the time and effort the kids have put in doing something they
love.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> By your way of thinking, pass everyone in public schools. Wouldn't
> want to hurt someones feelings by failing anyone.
>
Do you REALLY think that only the top lines deserves your respect and
applause? That those not there yet, but who are somewhere along the way, are
insignificant failures?
Michael Cahill
mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I also saw a video of a bunch of WGI lines, from EVERY class, from percussion
> ensemble thru World.
So the clarity of videotape is as good as being at the show?
> Those are the best; of course the rest aren't up to that level. That's why
> they ARE the best.
But the point here is your original statement - that they all were
"percussioning up a storm" weekly. I.E. they are all good and all being
taught to play well.
> > But they all had costumes and props. The point?
> > If you can't teach the kids to drum, don't bother with the Theater. You
> > end up doing BOTH poorly.
>
> No reason a developing line can't develop doing both. They aren't mutually
> exclusive. You can be learning drumming basics while learning the basics of
> theatrical/visual presentation.
Not from what I've seen at Dayton Mike. The occasional line can do it,
but many were suffering on the performance end. IMO that comes from
spending half their time on the theater end.
How many lines dance, but have no instructors with actual real world
dancing skills? But they have to dance, or they'll place poorly.
They have props, but no stage or lighting. Anyone who works in theater
can tell you lighting and staging are basic elements in theater
presentations. Mercury halide gym lights don't cut it, a basketball
court can't replace a stage - too big - the props have to be much larger
to create effect without being dwarfed.
I could go on, but the question is this - Are they really teaching
theater to the students?
> > My point is that these members deserve to be taught how to play.
>
> They are; it's not an 'overnight' thing. It takes time to develop.
So they should first focus on teaching members to play well, then throw
in the theater.
> > Again I'll have to ask you to list all these rudimental lines. Don't
> > just list Dartmouth or King Phillip. Name the lines and the notes Mike.
>
> Look at every line that competed at WGI, in every marching class.
No, let's hear the names of lines, and the rudiments they played Mike.
You're doing the same thing here you do with corps- making a gross
unfounded overstatement. "Everyone" is playing. Sorry, that won't cut it
for me. I'd like a list from you. It should be simple if there's that
much drumming going on in EVERY line that competed at WGI in EVERY
marching class.
BTW, I hope that tape had EVERY line on it.
> > Too many of the high school lines were having trouble
> > with basic technique and cleanliness, yet they were all doing "theater" shows.
>
> So?
So at what point are you doing BOTH a disservice? My opinion, when you
aren't doing either particularly well. That's not helping the students
in any way. Telling them they're doing a great job when they aren't
doesn't help either. You want to really help them? Teach them how to do
something well, and don't blow sunshine up their asses when it isn't
good. When EVERYONE is "great" the word becomes worthless.
> They are developing skills over time. It's not an all or nothing thing;
> it's a development process that takes time.
How long? One year? Two years? Four? How long are the members in the
H.S. lines? Hope they "develop" before they graduate.
> > Most don't have anywhere near enough cash to keep up in the
> > costume department with lines like Dartmouth and King Phillip.
>
> Dartmouth does LOTS of fundraising for financing and uses lots of
> student/parental skills to create their props and costumes. I assume King
> Philip does the same, but I don't know for sure about them.
Student/parental or really parental skills for costuming? Are the kids
designing the props and outfits?
When does visual become more of a contest between parents/staff and
cashflow instead of a competition between members?
> The cost of the props isn't the primary factor in going or not going; it's the
> travel and living costs while there that cost the bucks.
I'd love to see a breakdown. I'm sure travel is the largest cost, but
how is it helping the matter to add the cost of costuming, sets and
props to the mix?
> Sure, it does cost to build props and sew costumes for materials,
> but those costs can be managed and controlled by the staff and parents,
> using in-house skills to do the manual labor.
And in the end, the lines with more cash and better props will have the
advantage. That's not a level playing field. If it were just about
getting busses and hotels, and playing the instruments you have a much
more equitable starting point. It would be a contest between the members
and their skills, not so much of a contest between who's staff has
better "design" skills and who's parents can sew a better looking
costume or afford to have it made.
> The total cost of going to events like Dayton is expensive, props or not.
Well, the props aren't helping. Some lines need an extra vehicle instead
of just putting the instruments under the bus.
> It always comes back to that; putting down the designers as some sort or
> Svengali-like people who con the groups (band/corps/pecussion/guard) into
> doing things they shouldn't. It's just plain fun.
Yes Mike, it invariably comes down to that. They aren't all
"Svengali-like people". Some of them just need to be reminded that this,
along with drum corps, is for the members first, not for the staff to
"express" themselves. The more this becomes about
"emotion" and "expression" vs. the member's playing skills, the more
impossible it will become to judge, and the more frustrated the members
will become with the placement system. What do you tell them? The judge
felt that you didn't feel this as well as those guys felt that? How can
you standardize emotion or theatric expression on a sheet?
The members are the ones giving up their time and money, it should be
about them.
> Another question. Why do you even GO to these events, if you like one or two
> groups for every 10 or 12 you don't like?
Because some of my friends teach lines. Even though I disagree with
their approach at times, they are still my friends and I support them.
Because I see tons of old friends I marched with or knew from drum
corps, so it becomes a nice reunion.
Because outside of drum corps and marching band, this is the only other
place I can hope to hear rudimental drumming - even though it's not
around as much as I'd like to hear it.
And now a question for you.
Why do you insist on making sweeping statements about activities you
don't attend regularly or have much first hand knowledge about?
Cheers
Michael Cahill
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F29C26...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> > > What's wrong with applauding for everything?
> >
> > Creates false self-esteem.
> >
>
> Applaud the efforts of every individual on the floor, from top to bottom.
> They all work hard, and they deserve the respect and admiration of the
> audience. The absolute achievement will vary by the experience level, but
> that is totally unimportant. The fact that they are participating is all that
> REALLY counts.
I won't applaud for something I don't like. Period. If I did it would
be a lie. When I marched I could tell the polite golf claps for my
efforts vs the "THAT WAS GREAT" clapping ovation that
let me know we did an excellent job. I didn't like the pity claps.
I greatly appreciated the Job Well Done claps.
>
>
> It's NOT creating 'false self-esteem' to applaud the efforts. It's a just
> reward for the time and effort the kids have put in doing something they
> love.
>
How is it reward? You think of the kids as Pavlovian dogs, salivating
for a pat on the head? Please give them more credit than that, they are
smarter than the adults leading this charade.
>
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F2CD7C...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> > By your way of thinking, pass everyone in public schools. Wouldn't
> > want to hurt someones feelings by failing anyone.
> >
>
> Do you REALLY think that only the top lines deserves your respect and
> applause? That those not there yet, but who are somewhere along the way, are
> insignificant failures?
>
That's not what I said, and I'm refraining from adding "dipshit" here. I
applaud
excellence. Not prop carrying, tacet laden, tippy-tapping playing. So please,
don't start misconstruing my words like you've misconstrued Mr. Cahill's.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
mca...@mindspring-vikingskit.com wrote:
>
>
> mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > I also saw a video of a bunch of WGI lines, from EVERY class, from
percussion
> > ensemble thru World.
>
> So the clarity of videotape is as good as being at the show?
>
Of course not. It DOES give me a flavor of the show types, at every level of
line. Plus, I've seen indoor lines before, from beginners to Dartmouth level.
> > Those are the best; of course the rest aren't up to that level. That's why
> > they ARE the best.
>
> But the point here is your original statement - that they all were
> "percussioning up a storm" weekly. I.E. they are all good and all being
> taught to play well.
>
"Percussioning up a storm" at the level they were participating in. You can
be a raw beginning line and still "percussion up a storm", at that level.
> > No reason a developing line can't develop doing both. They aren't mutually
> > exclusive. You can be learning drumming basics while learning the basics of
> > theatrical/visual presentation.
>
> Not from what I've seen at Dayton Mike. The occasional line can do it,
> but many were suffering on the performance end. IMO that comes from
> spending half their time on the theater end.
>
So any marching group starting out shouldn't march at all until they can play
first? Usually they do both at the same time; teach the fundamentals of
marching as well as playing.
> How many lines dance, but have no instructors with actual real world
> dancing skills? But they have to dance, or they'll place poorly.
>
If they dance but have no instructors trained in dance, they'll probably end
up poorly anyway.
> They have props, but no stage or lighting. Anyone who works in theater
> can tell you lighting and staging are basic elements in theater
> presentations.
OK. No quibble there, for sure.
> Mercury halide gym lights don't cut it, a basketball
> court can't replace a stage - too big - the props have to be much larger
> to create effect without being dwarfed.
>
Badly put together props are certainly a possibility.
> I could go on, but the question is this - Are they really teaching
> theater to the students?
>
Sure, in selling of the show through movement and even facial expression as
well as playing. The props are the LEAST of it.
> > They are; it's not an 'overnight' thing. It takes time to develop.
>
> So they should first focus on teaching members to play well, then throw
> in the theater.
>
I prefer the playing to be the primary focus, but they can still learn the
theater at the smae time.
>
> So at what point are you doing BOTH a disservice? My opinion, when you
> aren't doing either particularly well.
As I said, it's a continuum. All the lines fit in someplace along it. Some
play better than others, and some do the theatrical effects better. Some do
both well, and some do both poorly. That's why there are various classes
within the activity.
> That's not helping the students
> in any way. Telling them they're doing a great job when they aren't
> doesn't help either.
What is a great job? A beginning level group can do a great job that can't
compare to even a lower-level World class group. It's all relative, and it's
up to the staff to place the kids in the proper division.
> You want to really help them? Teach them how to do
> something well, and don't blow sunshine up their asses when it isn't
> good. When EVERYONE is "great" the word becomes worthless.
>
No, not when it's applied properly, according to where the group is.
>
> How long? One year? Two years? Four? How long are the members in the
> H.S. lines? Hope they "develop" before they graduate.
>
That's why there are separate divisions. Some groups just don't have the time
to put into it, but can achieve a good level in the A class, while others may
go World class and practice all the time. Every group has it's own potential
level of achievement based on the effort they can put into the activity, the
skills they have going in, and the skills that their instructors have and are
able to impart to the students.
> >
> > Dartmouth does LOTS of fundraising for financing and uses lots of
> > student/parental skills to create their props and costumes. I assume King
> > Philip does the same, but I don't know for sure about them.
>
> Student/parental or really parental skills for costuming? Are the kids
> designing the props and outfits?
>
It's a group effort, from what I've been told. I'll ask them this weekend if I
get the chance; I'm judging a show they'll be at this Saturday.
>
> I'd love to see a breakdown. I'm sure travel is the largest cost, but
> how is it helping the matter to add the cost of costuming, sets and
> props to the mix?
>
If they rent a truck for their equipment, which I would guess most do, given
the amount of equipment they have to move (the ubiquitous Ryder trucks),
moving up in size adds only a couple of bucks to the rental price. I was
surprised how little difference there was between truck sizes.
>
> And in the end, the lines with more cash and better props will have the
> advantage. That's not a level playing field. If it were just about
> getting busses and hotels, and playing the instruments you have a much
> more equitable starting point.
In comparison to the travel and living costs, the building costs aren't that
high, esp using in-house talent.
> It would be a contest between the members
> and their skills, not so much of a contest between who's staff has
> better "design" skills and who's parents can sew a better looking
> costume or afford to have it made.
>
It still IS a skills contest; the rest is just icing on the cake.
>
> Yes Mike, it invariably comes down to that. They aren't all
> "Svengali-like people". Some of them just need to be reminded that this,
> along with drum corps, is for the members first, not for the staff to
> "express" themselves.
Any staff member who the director determines is in it for his/her personal
expression over the good of the kids should be fired.
> The more this becomes about
> "emotion" and "expression" vs. the member's playing skills,
Nope. PLUS the playing skills, not VERSUS.
> the more
> impossible it will become to judge, and the more frustrated the members
> will become with the placement system.
It's only impossible to judge if you look at it the way you do. Those
participating, teaching, and judging don't feel it's 'impossible' to judge.
Otherwise, why would the do it?
> What do you tell them? The judge
> felt that you didn't feel this as well as those guys felt that? How can
> you standardize emotion or theatric expression on a sheet?
>
GE in all of the idioms has talked about communication of emotion for decades,
be it DC, MB, guard, and now indoor percussion.
> The members are the ones giving up their time and money, it should be
> about them.
>
It is.
>
> Why do you insist on making sweeping statements about activities you
> don't attend regularly or have much first hand knowledge about?
>
Sweeping? No. I absorb what I see live and on tape and make comments based on
that, along with the comments others I respect make. You certainly don't have
to agree.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
> be a lie. When I marched I could tell the polite golf claps for my
> efforts vs the "THAT WAS GREAT" clapping ovation that
> let me know we did an excellent job. I didn't like the pity claps.
> I greatly appreciated the Job Well Done claps.
>
So you only respond to those who 'win'? Pretty elitist attitude. What about
the group doing their first show EVER who comes in last, but who has put in
the time and effort to make it to the floor/field? They don't deserve your
applause because their absolute skill level isn't up to your 'standards'?
>
> How is it reward? You think of the kids as Pavlovian dogs, salivating
> for a pat on the head?
No, I think of them as people who have put in some amount of time and effort
to perform in a group doing something they love to do. Would you applaud a
scholastic-level Broadway musical? It's not NYC Broadway, after all; it's
just a bunch of young people putting on a show at whatever their level of
excellence happens to be. Would you applaud the six-year-old dancers at
dance recital going on stage in their first performance? They aren't the
Alvin Ailey dancers, but they are having a great time and doing something for
the sheer fun of it.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
> > applause? That those not there yet, but who are somewhere along the way, are
> > insignificant failures?
> >
>
> That's not what I said, and I'm refraining from adding "dipshit" here. I
> applaud
> excellence.
So you applaud excellence. Where do I misconstrue your meaning?
>
> don't start misconstruing my words like you've misconstrued Mr. Cahill's.
>
>
Mike
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F65EAE...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> >
> > I won't applaud for something I don't like. Period. If I did it would
> > be a lie. When I marched I could tell the polite golf claps for my
> > efforts vs the "THAT WAS GREAT" clapping ovation that
> > let me know we did an excellent job. I didn't like the pity claps.
> > I greatly appreciated the Job Well Done claps.
> >
>
> So you only respond to those who 'win'? Pretty elitist attitude.
Again you twist words. I remember standing in awe at watching
Bridgemen's drum solo during pre-season in 80 and 81. They
were dirty as hell, but man watching them perform was a treat.
A few years ago I clapped heavily for the drum parts played by
Lone Star. I thought they had much better parts than the top
12. Besides, as a customer paying for entertainment I can
choose to clap when I want.
> What about
> the group doing their first show EVER who comes in last, but who has put in
> the time and effort to make it to the floor/field? They don't deserve your
> applause because their absolute skill level isn't up to your 'standards'?
I told you in the previous message, I don't applaud tippy tappy parts.
That speaks against the arranger, not the players.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F65F32...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > Do you REALLY think that only the top lines deserves your respect and
> > > applause? That those not there yet, but who are somewhere along the way, are
> > > insignificant failures?
> > >
> >
> > That's not what I said, and I'm refraining from adding "dipshit" here. I
> > applaud
> > excellence.
>
> So you applaud excellence. Where do I misconstrue your meaning?
Your flaw is assuming I applaud only the top lines. Hell, the last few years
I find myself applauding more div 2 and div 3 drumlines than opne class.
James Christian
> So any marching group starting out shouldn't march at all until they can play
> first? Usually they do both at the same time; teach the fundamentals of
> marching as well as playing.
That's what many Senior & Alumni corps do. Look at their success.
> > How many lines dance, but have no instructors with actual real world
> > dancing skills? But they have to dance, or they'll place poorly.
>
> If they dance but have no instructors trained in dance, they'll probably end
> up poorly anyway.
Tell that to this year's PAS winners. Their whole show was based on latin dances
(they danced on tables, etc.). They may have hired someone to teach dance to their
kids, but that just goes to prove that it's all about who spends the most, not
about the playing ability of the members.
> > I could go on, but the question is this - Are they really teaching
> > theater to the students?
>
> Sure, in selling of the show through movement and even facial expression as
> well as playing. The props are the LEAST of it.
If you go out their with a "stone face" and blow the audience away, you'll sell the
show. That's the whole point: Sell the players' playing abilities, not the
staff's design "skills".
> It still IS a skills contest; the rest is just icing on the cake.
Too bad its not the MEMBERS' skills though.
> > the more
> > impossible it will become to judge, and the more frustrated the members
> > will become with the placement system.
>
> It's only impossible to judge if you look at it the way you do. Those
> participating, teaching, and judging don't feel it's 'impossible' to judge.
> Otherwise, why would the do it?
I've wondered the same thing. Many DO feel that it's impossible to judge. I've
heard from countless directors & instructors that it's all subjective, and you
can't really judge music, yadda, yadda, yadda.
It IS becoming impossible to judge with any amount of objectivity. When everyone
is doing interpretive dance, how do you judge that? When there isn't uniformity,
you can't judge execution. It reduces the Exposure to Error down to practically
nothing, and it does little for me G.E.-wise.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> >I haven't seen any of the WGI Champion lines<
>
> How do you like this. Finally a truthful statement from the trio of WGI-hate
> team.
I left this quote so everyone can refer back to it as they read further.
> >I can
> >personally attest that individual technique is not being taught to any high
> >level.
> >It is the factory produced "let's crank out a drum line" technique that is
> >prevalent in all of the marching idioms today.
>
> This is from the one guy who believes Kenny Mazur has all the answers and
> follows him blindly.
I've seen it first hand with lines that I've played with.
> >And if you actually control your
> >sticks, judges will tell you that you're archaic, and they'll dump you
>
> PROVE THIS.
Those are the exact comments I've gotten from PAS Individuals the past two years.
I can dig up the sheets if you want.
> >I always thought it was more fun to have the audience applaud for my actual
> >talents, not the props I brought. (I've experienced both.) Maybe that's
> >just me though.
>
> I have been to lots and lots of PAS and WGI shows. Never has a prop gotten any
> applause.
Yeah, they're not very interesting. Actually, I *have* seen some applause for
props. How about SCV '89? The Phantom of the Opera show. With the disappearing
act.
> Had you seen the activity, which you previously admitted you have not
> seen,
Please don't manipulate my words. I didn't say I haven't seen it. I said I
haven't seen any of the WGI Championship lines. I've seen plenty of local drum
line shows, and I've seen the past 3 years of PAS High School and College
Championship lines. I even co-founded an indoor drum line.
> you would have heard applause for the ensembles' performance, which
> includes designs, intentions and performance.
>
> This has been a constant thread of "I elevate myself by diminishing those I
> don't." Please stop being the hypocritcal liar you have now shown yourself to
> be. Continue to practice in your little room and don't perform.
That seems to be the only thing left to do.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> I am glad you support James. Is he playing now? Is he performing?
Yes.
> I don't like golf, but its a
> real sport, with real fans and real participants who believe in it
> passionately. Because I don't believe in it....should I stand up and say...
>
> >IT DESERVES TO DIE!!!
If golf abandoned its fans like field music has over the past 15+ years, it WOULD
deserve to die. Just like any other activity. The marching bands' and indoor drum
lines' audiences are primarily parents, friends, and relatives, so it's not going
to have a problem with a fan base no matter what it decides to do. Just imagine
how many other fans there would be if it hadn't followed DCI's self-destructive
path.
> You can have your opinions, I have mine. We will argue till next March. But the
> activity is real, and many students are performing who aren't otherwise given
> the opportunity. What's your real problem?
It's fraud. The members aren't being taught to play well. They aren't being
judged by rudimental standards. They are being taught a theatre/drumming hybrid,
which results in the bastardization of both idioms. They are given false
self-esteem which will give them a rude awakening if they ever decide to go into a
truly competitive activity. That's just a few reasons. I can name more.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Again you twist words. I remember standing in awe at watching
> Bridgemen's drum solo during pre-season in 80 and 81. They
> were dirty as hell, but man watching them perform was a treat.
Applauding the performance of the music, dirty or not, is great. You saw
'something' burning inside them that brought out that response, regardless of
how 'clean' it was, esp pre-season.
> A few years ago I clapped heavily for the drum parts played by
> Lone Star. I thought they had much better parts than the top
> 12.
I still choose to applaud the kids, not the book or lack of it, but that's
just me. As you intimate below, feel free to applaud whatever you want.
> Besides, as a customer paying for entertainment I can
> choose to clap when I want.
>
> > What about
> > the group doing their first show EVER who comes in last, but who has put in
> > the time and effort to make it to the floor/field? They don't deserve your
> > applause because their absolute skill level isn't up to your 'standards'?
>
> I told you in the previous message, I don't applaud tippy tappy parts.
> That speaks against the arranger, not the players.
>
>
Well, sitting there not applauding, for whatever reason, reflects on the
titality of the performance. No one knows it's the parts you are choosing to
not applaud. Of course, it's your choice, as you say.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> > So you applaud excellence. Where do I misconstrue your meaning?
>
> Your flaw is assuming I applaud only the top lines. Hell, the last few years
> I find myself applauding more div 2 and div 3 drumlines than opne class.
>
Ah, I stand corrected. As you said, you're free to applaud whatever you want,
and it's CERTAINLY great to reward the div II and III corps for their hard
work with a positive reaction. Personally, I think all of the participants
deserve the respect and applause of the crowd, but that's just MHO.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Tell that to this year's PAS winners. Their whole show was based on latin
dances
> (they danced on tables, etc.). They may have hired someone to teach dance to
their
> kids, but that just goes to prove that it's all about who spends the most, not
> about the playing ability of the members.
>
Didn't see them, but I would guess that as they won the show they played some
great stuff too.
>
> If you go out their with a "stone face" and blow the audience away, you'll
sell the
> show. That's the whole point: Sell the players' playing abilities, not the
> staff's design "skills".
>
It's not selling the staffs' design skills for the most part; it's selling
the performance, both visual and musical, of the participants. Yes, a good
design is important, from the writing of the charts to the drill to whatever
props the group chooses to use (or not to use). It's that way in DC, MB,
guard, and indoor drumming. The bottom line is, though, that it's up to the
kids doing the show to make it sell. The best design will fail if the kids
don't perform it well.
> > It still IS a skills contest; the rest is just icing on the cake.
>
> Too bad its not the MEMBERS' skills though.
>
That's where you are wrong. It IS about the kids performance for the most
part, not primarily the designers.
> > It's only impossible to judge if you look at it the way you do. Those
> > participating, teaching, and judging don't feel it's 'impossible' to judge.
> > Otherwise, why would the do it?
>
> I've wondered the same thing.
Maybe they LIKE performing, including the visual stuff.
> Many DO feel that it's impossible to judge. I've
> heard from countless directors & instructors that it's all subjective,
Yes, as always in judging, it's subjective. If the directors and instructors
feel the activity has no value, then they're fools for spending the time and
$$$ they obviously do. Indoor drumline competition hasn't risen to the level
at our school, for example, where the staff people feel it's somethng we want
to spend $$$ and time preparing. We have a thriving percussion ensemble
program that gives the kids LOTS of great opportunities playing wonderful
ensemble literature. Others go the marching percussion route; that's their
choice.
> and you
> can't really judge music, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
Then there should be no DC, MB, or drumline competitions, ever. If you place
all of your emotional eggs in the judges basket, you are doing your kids a
disservice. It's the performance that counts the most. The competition is
just a few peoples opinions.
> It IS becoming impossible to judge with any amount of objectivity.
Judging always has been a subjective thing.
> When there isn't uniformity, you can't judge execution. It reduces the
> Exposure to Error down to practically nothing
You can still judge the technical performance of the show without merely
judging 'execution' and uniformity.
>it does little for me G.E.-wise.
>
Gee, why doesn't THAT surprise me. :-)
Any marching decisions yet? The click is ticking. ..........
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have been to lots and lots of PAS and WGI shows. Never has a prop gotten
any
> > applause.
>
> Yeah, they're not very interesting. Actually, I *have* seen some applause for
> props. How about SCV '89? The Phantom of the Opera show. With the
disappearing
> act.
>
One of the greatest DC shows EVER; wish I had seen it live and not just on
TV, but even there it was great. However, he was talking PAS and WGI, and you
had to go outside of those groups to find an example. And even there, it was
the performance of the KIDS doing the act that got the applause, NOT the
hardware itself.
>
> >Continue to practice in your little room and don't perform.
>
> That seems to be the only thing left to do.
>
James, that is the scariest thing I've ever heard from you. A big part of
being a musician is PERFORMING, not just developing skills. "The best player
to never march" isn't the way I'd like to be remembered, that's for sure.
RBrown4431
Whom?
>Those are the exact comments I've gotten from PAS Individuals the past two
>years.
>I can dig up the sheets if you want.
PLEASE
>Yeah, they're not very interesting.
Your opinion, which you expect everyone else to cowtow to?
>I
>haven't seen any of the WGI Championship lines.
If you haven't seen them, couch your comments such. It appears you are speaking
of an activity you are not familiar with.
Rick Brown
mik...@my-dejanews.com
bosc...@erols.com wrote:
>
> Designs?? Intentions?? New terminolgy?? what ever happened to
> "execution, dicipline, technique, difficulty."
>
It's still there.
> You
> might want to consider that maybe these two are not speaking of the
> performers but of the watering down of the entire activity by those
> teaching it.
James has never played in a competitive junior corps, div I, II, or III. I
doubt he has enough background and experience to really judge for himself;
his development is being guided by Rick and Ken to a large degree. Rick
is/was his instructor; it's only natural.
> I've gone to shows, I perform now and began drumming over thirty years
> ago.
Right, you 'perform now', and you have for decades. James is missing out on
that experience by not marching in a good junior corps (in any division). He
is standing on the sidelines throwing rocks at the activity having NEVER
participated in it. I feel bad for him; he seem to be a great person and from
reports here is a great drummer.
> The bando parents and artsy crowd may swoon over the theatre-drumming
> nonsense being presented, but they don't know any better.
Maybe they like it because it's not only well performed, but fun to watch as
well.
>
> I've seen James play. He's LIGHT YEARS better than anything I've seen
> this winter. He's also painfully earnest and sincere, with an obvious
> passion for druming and the marching activity.
I agree about his passion for drumming, at least rudimental drumming, but not
about the marching activity in general.
> Because long after the opportunists have made their reps and moved onto
> to a newer and better heeled group of suckers, it'll be the few
> passionate individuals like James, who will make sure this activity
> doesn't die.
Not if he doesn't participate in the activity. If he stays in his room and
just practices and never actually performs competitively then he'll do
nothing to help the activity thrive.
RBrown4431
>lines' audiences are primarily parents, friends, and relatives, so it's not
>going
>to have a problem with a fan base no matter what it decides to do. Just
>imagine
>how many other fans there would be if it hadn't followed DCI's
>self-destructive
>path.
What are you talking about? Only moms & dads in the stands? What do you think
this is, Little League? You have previously admitted you have not seen the WGI
activity first hand. Your opinion is invalid here.
The fraud is that you are offering opinions that you expect to be taken as
fact, when they are just your suppostions. You don't know the standards by
which they are judged, you aren't a participant or a spectator, only a distant
observer.
Let me make you an offer. You get yourself to Dayton, I will sit with you
throughout WGI world championships, and we can argue this. You will see plenty
of hands, more than just great snare hands. You will see talent in
developmental stages, growth stages and maturation stages. All from high school
students who are all under the age of consent. Energy and anticipation are
high, and I guarantee you they are learning perfoming music and other things.
It may not be the things you think it is, but you darned well better come see
it first hand before making large sweeping summations without factual base,
unless you want be called out for it.
Rick Brown
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> RBrown4431 wrote:
>
> > I am glad you support James. Is he playing now? Is he performing?
>
> Yes.
>
That's good news! Where are you playing?
> > But the
> > activity is real, and many students are performing who aren't otherwise
given
> > the opportunity. What's your real problem?
>
> It's fraud. The members aren't being taught to play well.
Sure doesn't seem that way to me, from the admittedly limited number of lines
I've seen live and on tape, from World, Open, A, and concert classes.
> They aren't being judged by rudimental standards.
Even if true (and it's still primarily a rudimental activity), so what?
> They are being taught a theatre/drumming hybrid,
> which results in the bastardization of both idioms.
Why march at all?
> They are given false self-esteem which will give them a rude awakening if they
> ever decide to go into a truly competitive activity.
How is their self-esteem false? I'm not sure I understand this one at all.
Being rewarded for doing a banf-up job, at their given level of expertise, is
a false reward?
Exactly what is a "truly competitive activity" to you? Other than DC, MB, WGI,
and PAS?
RBrown4431
Thank you for pointing this out so very eloquently
>James has never played in a competitive junior corps, div I, II, or III. I
>doubt he has enough background and experience to really judge for himself;
>his development is being guided by Rick and Ken to a large degree. Rick
>is/was his instructor; it's only natural.
>
>He
>is standing on the sidelines throwing rocks at the activity having NEVER
>participated in it. I feel bad for him; he seem to be a great person and from
>reports here is a great drummer
>Not if he doesn't participate in the activity. If he stays in his room and
>just practices and never actually performs competitively then he'll do
>nothing to help the activity thrive.
>
Thanks Mike!
Rick Brown
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> The best design will fail if the kids
> don't perform it well.
Not according to Cesario. He stated in an interview, "the kids
can perform the heck out of a show but without substantive
design they can't win."
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
corps, div I, II, or III. I
>
> Right, you 'perform now', and you have for decades. James is missing out on
> that experience by not marching in a good junior corps (in any division).
Why dies it have to be a junior corps? James toured with Bayou City Blues
last summer and when he got back was absolutely thrilled about the senior
corps.
> He
> is standing on the sidelines throwing rocks at the activity having NEVER
> participated in it. I feel bad for him; he seem to be a great person and from
> reports here is a great drummer.
>
Don't feel bad for him, I'm sure whatever James decides will be right for
James.
> Not if he doesn't participate in the activity. If he stays in his room and
> just practices and never actually performs competitively then he'll do
> nothing to help the activity thrive.
"The best way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing." But in this
case when someone speaks out you try to hush them, so afraid that words
will bruise some poor child's fragile ego, damaging them for life. I think
the best thing that could happen to junior corps right now is competition
with the seniors for membership.
>
mik...@my-dejanews.com
rbrow...@aol.com (RBrown4431) wrote:
> YAAAAAAAAA!
>
> Thank you for pointing this out so very eloquently
Rick,
You are welcome.
The thing I feel worst about is the way James is missing out on the activity
by not marching in a junior competitive corps. He's obviously very talented
and bright, but he's focussing more on being an 'armchair warrior' than
actually participating.
If the people he respects most aren't prodding him to march, then they do him
a grave disservice, IMHO. There is a LOT more to the DC experience than just
the chops.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
I read that as you need both to win, which you do.
As I said, and your quote in no way contradicts me, a great design with lousy
performance won't win.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> Why dies it have to be a junior corps? James toured with Bayou City Blues
> last summer and when he got back was absolutely thrilled about the senior
> corps.
>
Senior corps is great; if he wants to march in a competitive DCA corps more
power to him. I don't know very much about Bayou City. Are they a competitive
senior corps? Were they at DCA's last year; it's pretty far away.
>
> Don't feel bad for him, I'm sure whatever James decides will be right for
> James.
>
As long as the information and advice he's being given from those he respects
most is accurate and has HIS best interests at heart.
> > Not if he doesn't participate in the activity. If he stays in his room and
> > just practices and never actually performs competitively then he'll do
> > nothing to help the activity thrive.
>
> "The best way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing." But in this
> case when someone speaks out you try to hush them, so afraid that words
> will bruise some poor child's fragile ego, damaging them for life.
Where am I trying to hush anybody?
> I think
> the best thing that could happen to junior corps right now is competition
> with the seniors for membership.
>
DCA corps are great. If that's what he wants to do, then more poweer to him.
Just do SOMETHING in the activity. He's too young to miss out on the
excitement and thrill of marching competitively, be it DCI or DCA.
RBrown4431
is the philosophical brainwashing that is going on....could have serious
repercussions in the future...
Rick
RBrown4431
RBrown4431
to be pointed out...its not the picture that some would paint of the current
state of the indoor activity; particularly the picture that has been painted by
a team of non-participants AND non-observers
Rick Brown
Martin McIsaac
trying to figure it out.
Mike, it's good to see you finally have an ally on this newsgroup. I have
admired your dogged and lonely defense of an indefensable reality.
>>
>> Designs?? Intentions?? New terminolgy?? what ever happened to
>> "execution, dicipline, technique, difficulty."
>>
>
>It's still there.
You missed something in my mini critique. None of the above were in any way
evident in the event I attended. This is not negativity, sour grapes or
otherwise. What I witnessed, with the obvious exception of Dartmouth H.S.
(superlative line), was a utter nonsense.
snip snip
>
>> The bando parents and artsy crowd may swoon over the theatre-drumming
>> nonsense being presented, but they don't know any better.
>
>Maybe they like it because it's not only well performed, but fun to watch
as
>well.
>
Again Mike, with the exception of Dartmouth H.S., what I witnessed would
have to significantly improve, to rise to the level of awful. This was third
rate dance, childish choreography and non existant drumming. All taught by
well meaning (I hope) but utterly clueless people.
When a line can't perform 8 on a hand at a ridiculously slow bpm, this ain't
a line. This is a group of kids abusing instruments. More galling was the
fact that these kids and their parents, think, this is "good stuff." I
actually had a proud mom and dad turn to me after one of these groups warmed
up and say, "pretty good, huh?"
What do you say to them, "you're being ripped off by that nitwit over there
teaching them! This isn't percussion/drumming, these kids have the technique
akin to monkeys with clubs. You think your kid prancing around in a peasant
costume is good?"
I just sadly nodded to them and agreed.........these poor bastards don't
even know what they don't know.
>> I've seen James play. He's LIGHT YEARS better than anything I've seen
>> this winter. He's also painfully earnest and sincere, with an obvious
>> passion for druming and the marching activity.
>
>I agree about his passion for drumming, at least rudimental drumming, but
not
>about the marching activity in general.
James's only problem is the fact that he has acquired, listened to and
watched performances of the past. He's seen and heard an activity (drumming)
performed at a level maybe never to be done so again.
Do you truly think Rick or Ken could sway anyone to such a degree if they
didn't speak the truth.
D.L.'s of the past, Cavs, Oakland Crusaders, Kingsmen, Muchachos etc. etc.,
reached the top of the mountain. What they accomplished may never be
duplicated in regards to shear excellence.
>
>> Because long after the opportunists have made their reps and moved onto
>> to a newer and better heeled group of suckers, it'll be the few
>> passionate individuals like James, who will make sure this activity
>> doesn't die.
>
>Not if he doesn't participate in the activity. If he stays in his room and
>just practices and never actually performs competitively then he'll do
>nothing to help the activity thrive.
I predict James will be seen on many a field before he becomes a bitter old
s.o.b. :)
Marty McIsaac
Jeff
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M) wrote:
> mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > The best design will fail if the kids
> > don't perform it well.
>
> Not according to Cesario. He stated in an interview, "the kids
> can perform the heck out of a show but without substantive
> design they can't win."
If one wants to talk about competitive outcomes, both of these
statements are true. You need both a well-designed program AND a great
performance to "win." This has always been a reality based on the
scoring of drum corps. At my first clinic in 1975, I was told, "You can
win playing Jesus Come To Me in whole notes, no matter how well it is
played." Baby John Chalmus said it was so.
--
Jeff
Hot can be cool
and cool can be hot
and each can be both.
But hot or cool man,
jazz is jazz.
Louis Armstrong
Visit my drum corps G Bugle webpage at;
http://pages.prodigy.net/jeffmitchell/bugle.html
Michael Cahill
I'm sorry, are you talking about James, or the kids in many WGI lines?
MC
Michael Cahill
mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> If the people he respects most aren't prodding him to march, then they do him
> a grave disservice, IMHO. There is a LOT more to the DC experience than just
> the chops.
You know Mike, you have a ton of gall to say that.
You don't prod ANY of your band students to march corps AT ALL.
In fact, when I asked you why not, you were very adamant about not
"forcing" things on the students.
So do me a favor and stop preaching what you don't practice.
MC
Michael Cahill
mik...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> As long as the information and advice he's being given from those he respects
> most is accurate and has HIS best interests at heart.
It's a lot better than listening to an assistant band director make
sweeping statements about drumlines and corps he doesn't have time to
see.
Man, you really amaze me sometimes Mike.
> DCA corps are great. If that's what he wants to do, then more poweer to him.
> Just do SOMETHING in the activity. He's too young to miss out on the
> excitement and thrill of marching competitively, be it DCI or DCA.
But he can be sure you won't be there to buy a ticket and support him.
Please, save the sermons. You don't have the actions to back them up.
MC
mik...@my-dejanews.com
Our kids aren't kids who have honed their rudimental skills to the level
James has. They aren't standing around dissing the activity as unworthy and
beneath their skills. James has prepared himself TO march, and then doesn't
out of some misguided concept that he won't have a great experience doing
so.
I support any student who expresses an interest in marching, but I'm not
going to force it on them. What I am against is imparting mis-information
that causes a person such as James to miss out on an activity they have an
interest in.
James has the skills, drive, and desire to march; he's been sadly misguided
against doing so, IMHO. That's the difference.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
mca...@mindspring-vikingskit.com wrote:
>
> It's a lot better than listening to an assistant band director make
> sweeping statements about drumlines and corps he doesn't have time to
> see.
>
Even seeing as few shows as I do get the chance to see, I am more of a
supporter of the activity than you or James. All I hear are negative comments
about what is played and how it's being played.
> Man, you really amaze me sometimes Mike.
Why thank you.
>
> But he can be sure you won't be there to buy a ticket and support him.
>
Just because I don't have 1) the time, and 2) the finances to go all over the
country doesn't mean I don't support him and others. I go when I can, which
is not as often as I'd like, to be sure. It's sure not supporting James when
the folks he most respects are not telling him to march. Passing on the
drivel about how bad the activity is does nothing to support him and see to
it that he has the best experience possible.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Martin McIsaac" <bosc...@erols.com> wrote:
> Please forgive my delayed response. I've switched browser and am still
> trying to figure it out.
> Mike, it's good to see you finally have an ally on this newsgroup. I have
> admired your dogged and lonely defense of an indefensable reality.
>
Why thank you. :-)
> >
> Again Mike, with the exception of Dartmouth H.S., what I witnessed would
> have to significantly improve, to rise to the level of awful.
First, are you talking about World, Open, or A class? Each level has it's own
set of criteria. Would you expect a beginner corps to be as good as the CBC?
That's why there ARE levels.
I haven't seen King Philip's indoor line, but having seen their field show
last fall at Giant's stadium, they are one heck of a great group of
percussionists. Were they at the show you saw?
> When a line can't perform 8 on a hand at a ridiculously slow bpm, this ain't
> a line. This is a group of kids abusing instruments.
Again, what classes do you refer to? An 'A' class line will not have developed
the skills of a Dartmouth; that's why they are in the 'A' class, for example.
> More galling was the
> fact that these kids and their parents, think, this is "good stuff." I
> actually had a proud mom and dad turn to me after one of these groups warmed
> up and say, "pretty good, huh?"
It's her kids; they don't look at things they way you do. I'd be proud of my
kids too just being on the floor performing and competing.
>
> >> I've seen James play. He's LIGHT YEARS better than anything I've seen
> >> this winter. He's also painfully earnest and sincere, with an obvious
> >> passion for druming and the marching activity.
> >
> >I agree about his passion for drumming, at least rudimental drumming, but
> not
> >about the marching activity in general.
>
> James's only problem is the fact that he has acquired, listened to and
> watched performances of the past.
It's great to watch and hear the corps of the past. All kids in corps should
do so.
> Do you truly think Rick or Ken could sway anyone to such a degree if they
> didn't speak the truth.
Sure, if they are his teachers. He obviously respects their opinions to an
enormous degree. Many of his answers are word-for-word the things they say.
Even if he agrees with their take on the state of the activity, doing nothing
competitively is the worst option to take, and they should be insisting he
march in a competitive corps, be it DCI or DCA.
> D.L.'s of the past, Cavs, Oakland Crusaders, Kingsmen, Muchachos etc. etc.,
> reached the top of the mountain. What they accomplished may never be
> duplicated in regards to shear excellence.
> >
In terms of excellence as it was defined then, yes. In terms of sheer
rudimental field drumming, yes. The thing is, the corps today don't even look
to that standard of performance and style as the way to go, so of course they
won't duplicate those great lines in those terms.
>
> I predict James will be seen on many a field before he becomes a bitter old
> s.o.b. :)
>
:-)
I sure hope that's true!
Is your corps having a table at the Norwalk show this Saturday?
mik...@my-dejanews.com
Jeff <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> If one wants to talk about competitive outcomes, both of these
> statements are true. You need both a well-designed program AND a great
> performance to "win." This has always been a reality based on the
> scoring of drum corps. At my first clinic in 1975, I was told, "You can
> win playing Jesus Come To Me in whole notes, no matter how well it is
> played." Baby John Chalmus said it was so.
> --
Jeff,
>"You can
> win playing Jesus Come To Me in whole notes, no matter how well it is
> played.">
Did you mean "can't"?
A exact same analogy was made to me by the great Jack Pratt, when he was my
tech in the 70's at a GSC corps I wrote for and taught, even using the same
song name. :-)
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F7ABFE...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> Senior corps is great; if he wants to march in a competitive DCA corps more
> power to him. I don't know very much about Bayou City. Are they a competitive
> senior corps? Were they at DCA's last year; it's pretty far away.
>
Why would it have to be competitive? I thought this whole thing was over whether
or not junior corps are competitive. Doesn't seem like they are anymore, at least
not for the kids. Believe me, James wants to compete.
>
> >
> > Don't feel bad for him, I'm sure whatever James decides will be right for
> > James.
> >
>
> As long as the information and advice he's being given from those he respects
> most is accurate and has HIS best interests at heart.
>
How would it be otherwise? That I'm somehow withholding him from a "great
opportunity" for my own selfish reasons? You make it sound as if I've brainwashed
him. James is a free thinking individual who can makes his own decisions, and if
he doesn't want to march a junior corps that's his business. It's his money and
time, not yours or mine.
>
>
> >
> > "The best way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing."
The point of the above quote is that if you don't like something
the absolute worse thing you can do is go along with it.
> But in this
> > case when someone speaks out you try to hush them, so afraid that words
> > will bruise some poor child's fragile ego, damaging them for life.
>
> Where am I trying to hush anybody?
Everytime someone has a criticism you put on your rose-tinted glasses
and admonish them for possibly bruising the tender egos of those hard
working kids, even when the criticism is directed at the staff-driven
elements.
>
>
>
>
> DCA corps are great. If that's what he wants to do, then more poweer to him.
> Just do SOMETHING in the activity. He's too young to miss out on the
> excitement and thrill of marching competitively, be it DCI or DCA.
I partially agree, but the reality is, the cost of junior corps is making
marching
in a corps financially prohibitive, added with taceting for almost half a show
it's not very appealing for people who want to play.
>
>
>
mik...@my-dejanews.com
>
That's why.
>
> How would it be otherwise? That I'm somehow withholding him from a "great
> opportunity" for my own selfish reasons? You make it sound as if I've
> brainwashed him. James is a free thinking individual who can makes his own
> decisions, and if he doesn't want to march a junior corps that's his business.
> It's his money and time, not yours or mine.
>
Some of the responses I've seen from him are pretty near quotes from yourself
and Ken. He obviously respects you a lot and listens to what you have said
over time, in addition to acquiring what seems to be a great set of skills.
While he can certainly make up his own mind, have you spoken to him about
marching competitively, even if it's not the activity you want it to be? He's
certainly absorbed the negatives you and Ken have about the activity. What
about the positives of the experience? Have you been just as vocal to him
about them? If not, he's only acquired 1/2 the picture from those he most
respects.
>
> > DCA corps are great. If that's what he wants to do, then more poweer to him.
> > Just do SOMETHING in the activity. He's too young to miss out on the
> > excitement and thrill of marching competitively, be it DCI or DCA.
>
> I partially agree, but the reality is, the cost of junior corps is making
> marchingin a corps financially prohibitive, added with taceting for almost
half a show it's not very appealing for people who want to play.
>
Well, right now he's taceting for the entire show.
If cost is the primary factor, then that's too bad, but if it's not, then IMHO
he should march someplace, as he's obviously a highly skilled, and very
competitive, person.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
>
>
> I support any student who expresses an interest in marching, but I'm not
> going to force it on them. What I am against is imparting mis-information
> that causes a person such as James to miss out on an activity they have an
> interest in.
Please prove that James has been guided with mis-information.
>
>
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> Well, who died and made Cesario the king?
The same brain washed drones who let the activity go
towards design over performance. Cesario was also
quoted in the same interview that there's not enough
points awarded to design.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> I agree completely. Wasted talent is just that...wasted. What concerns me more
> is the philosophical brainwashing that is going on....could have serious
> repercussions in the future...
>
> Rick
You're right. I see so much brain washing with today's junior corps.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
Does he march competitively? A person with the great skills he's developed. A
person who is as competition-oriented as he is.
You competed; Ken competed; others here marched and competed. As of now,
James has not (was Bayou City a competitive corps?). And to me, that's a
shame given his passion for performing in a competitive arena that DC still
is, despite the opinions to the contrary.
RBrown4431
That I will agree with completely.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F8FBDC...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Why would it have to be competitive? ...Believe me, James wants to compete.
> >
>
> That's why.
As previously explained James wants to play, if he wanted acting classes he
go take an acting class. If he wanted to "orchest" he pursue a concert
percussion career. If he wanted to carry props and dance and tacet he'd
do so elsewhere. He wants to drum. With emphasis on rudimental. Finding
what he wants for the cost he can afford, including travel, is not easy in
this day when very few corps exist.
>
>
> Some of the responses I've seen from him are pretty near quotes from yourself
> and Ken. He obviously respects you a lot and listens to what you have said
> over time, in addition to acquiring what seems to be a great set of skills.
> While he can certainly make up his own mind, have you spoken to him about
> marching competitively,
Yes I have. He would very much like to march in DCA finals, but if BCB
doesn't go it increases the difficulty, since the nearest senior corps to Dallas
that does go and compete at DCA would probably be Kilties, in Wisconsin.
> even if it's not the activity you want it to be? He's
> certainly absorbed the negatives you and Ken have about the activity.
Calling a spade a spade is IMO not a negative. Besides, James is intelligent
enough to make up his own mind. Yes, he has listened to me complain
about the lack of objectivity and batteries that no longer play. But he
doesn't take what I say as gospel. He has recordings from
previous years. He studies, more than I ever did, the arrangements of
various rudimental lines from different years. He transcibed every drum
solo from 1980.
> What
> about the positives of the experience? Have you been just as vocal to him
> about them? If not, he's only acquired 1/2 the picture from those he most
> respects.
>
Please list the 1/2 I've missed explaining to him.
>
>
>
> Well, right now he's taceting for the entire show.
And it's costing him nothing. There's a tradeoff for playing piddly parts
and paying 1,000 bucks.
JSHawk2001
>is the philosophical brainwashing that is going on....could have serious
>repercussions in the future...
>
Well, I march for a WGI Line, and I am NOT brainwashed.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
"Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> As previously explained James wants to play, if he wanted acting classes he
> go take an acting class. If he wanted to "orchest" he pursue a concert
> percussion career. If he wanted to carry props and dance and tacet he'd
> do so elsewhere. He wants to drum. With emphasis on rudimental. Finding
> what he wants for the cost he can afford, including travel, is not easy in
> this day when very few corps exist.
>
If $$$ are the problem, then that's another story. If he could afford to
march, but doesn't, that's a shame, IMHO.
>
> > What
> > about the positives of the experience? Have you been just as vocal to him
> > about them? If not, he's only acquired 1/2 the picture from those he most
> > respects.
> >
>
> Please list the 1/2 I've missed explaining to him.
>
If you can't see the positives of the DC experience, then anything I say won't
mean a darn thing to you.
You've taught him well.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F913D9...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Please prove that James has been guided with mis-information.
> >
>
> Does he march competitively? A person with the great skills he's developed. A
> person who is as competition-oriented as he is.
>
You didn't prove anything. I don't make James' decisions for him, he does.
Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)
> In article <36F9529C...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> "Beckham, Rick (EXCHANGE:RICH2:2L24-M)" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Please list the 1/2 I've missed explaining to him.
> >
>
I notice two things; you didn't try, and you think all I do is pump
poor little James' head with negatives about the activity. Nice spin,
where you imply if James is not marching it must be because of
all the brainwashing I've managed.
Where are all of your students? How many of those you teach
are marching? Give me a percentage, then we'll compare how
many I've taught in the past have marched vs how many you've taught.
I bet I have a higher percentage than you.
>
> If you can't see the positives of the DC experience, then anything I say won't
> mean a darn thing to you.
>
> You've taught him well.
>
He knows how to play. He also knows how to think for himself.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
>
> > In article <36F913D9...@americasm01.nt.com>,
> > >
> >
> > Does he march competitively? A person with the great skills he's developed.
A
> > person who is as competition-oriented as he is.
> >
>
> You didn't prove anything. I don't make James' decisions for him, he does.
>
>
Assuming James can afford to march (no easy assumption these days, to be
sure), a person with the skills, drive, and competitive desire he has should
be marching, IMHO. The fact that he is NOT leads me to believe he's getting
bum info from somewhere. You and Ken seem to be the people he most respects,
and your opinions are well-known in RAMD-land. The fact that you think it's
perfectly OK for him NOT to march says it all to me.