Professional Drum Corps
Stu
as "drum and bugle corps" being more than a charity case?
Granted, it has all the independence and political pull of a college
marching band that won't use the stadium unless nobody is looking.
Granted, sucking up to music education has only taken the art form
back to the stone age and into the playlists of people with other
interests.
Granted, the public no longer has any idea what a drum and bugle corps
is (or means of learning), thanks to DCI.
But drumming, bugling, marching, and flag/rifle/sabre still have
cultural value and historic relevance.
How would a professional organization look and develop?
Stuart E. Rice
Jazzycat1
I'd like it if you would just go away and maybe just fuck off. Happy
Holidays Douchebag!
Shadow_7
> How would a professional organization look and develop?
>
>
> Stuart E. Rice
http://www.keepaustinloud.com/
Not sure if it's a for profit setup. But there's not much DCI / DCA
aspirations with that group. And they're thriving since there's no $3K
dues either. And they can re-invest all their income towards equipment,
versus evaluations, entrance fees, and other competitive woes.
Neon Vincent
821ce5...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> I'd like it if you would just go away and maybe just fuck off. Happy
> Holidays Douchebag!
Just for that, I'll encourage him to keep posting.
--
Neon Vincent's Massage Parlors
http://www.examiner.com/x-31561-Detroit-Science-News-Examiner
http://neon-vincent.dailykos.com
http://darksumomo.livejournal.com/
http://www.journalfen.net/users/darksumomo/
http://www.youtube.com/user/pinkusensei
Charlie Groh
wrote:
"...four legs good; two legs better."
cg
ns787980
No such thing.
It's an AMATEUR status thing ONLY.
But think of the BENEFITS?
Potentially anyway...
I hope that all of those that participate as amatuers... get SOMETHING
out of it.
Sharon
ns787980
Do yourSELF a favor.
Answer the man in a civil manner.
You know... CONTRIBUTE to the conversation.
ASSWIPE.
Sharon
ns787980
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:07:23 -0800 (PST), Stu <choreoma...@juno.com>
That makes TOTAL sense.
Sharon
Shadow_7
Let me guess, you're the new DCA PR guy? Or are you just auditioning for
the role?
Big Rich Soprano
>the role?
It just might be your personal agenda - did ya ever think of that?.. i
didn't think so...
Jim Blansett
How does his "personal agenda" have anything to do with Jazzycat's
response to what Stuart wrote? Of course, no one can tell for
certain, since you removed the greatest part of the message.
Dave Adams
Well there are a few examples out there, one being the the US Marine
Corps drum & bugle corps, the other being Blast!.
For that matter you could throw in The Old Guard.
I'm not saying "this is the way to do it"; more "this is the way it's
been done".
-Dave Adams-
Big Rich Soprano
>>didn't think so...
>How does his "personal agenda" have anything to do with Jazzycat's
>response to what Stuart wrote? Of course, no one can tell for
>certain, since you removed the greatest part of the message.
No, not Jaz's...
Big Rich Soprano
>Corps drum & bugle corps, the other being Blast!.
>For that matter you could throw in The Old Guard.
Doesn't blast use multikey and would that rule them out?
Jazzycat1
>
> - Show quoted text -
I want you Sharon
Charlie Groh
...if you label it "Drum and Bugle Corps" it does But that hasn't
*really* been the case since...well, pick your poison, where do you
draw the line? Adding a piston, then screwing it down for half the
hornline? Unscrewing the piston? Adding a rotary valve? Going to
upright two-valve...three valve "G"...multi key? I think it is, or
very soon will be, a derivation issue: from where is this performing
group rooted. So I think Blast is a prime example of "Pro" drum
corps...there is no doubt it sprang from Star and was initially
composed of those kids...
cg
Shadow_7
Which agenda would that be? To participate in a PAY to PLAY drumcorps.
And get a score for my efforts / funds? And maybe get some media
coverage that doesn't suck (yeah, they finally changed vendors (five
years too late)). And not get called an ASS by the DCA PR guy because a
group has more than 30, but less than 35 members. Thus ending our season
early since we spent all of it playing a numbers game, and were ill
prepared to PERFORM. While paying DCA hundreds of dollars just to get
them to MAYBE do the basics involved with a competitive drumcorps circuit.
Yes, I have an agenda. I want things to be a certain way. Just like
everyone else has an agenda. For some it's to win. For others it's to
just be allowed to play the game. Something which USED TO not be a
MAYBE. Unlike corporate america, DCA is NOT too big to fail. And is
thus not eligible for a bailout. (But don't tell them that, they might
call you names). Things could be so different (and better). But by all
means keep your agenda. And when your "championship" has 6 or less corps
competing for 14 finalists spots, I'll still be here to tell you I told
you so. I'll still be wanting to help, and you'll still be calling me
names. Gotta love evolution.
Meanwhile several years and several thousands of dollars TRYING to fit
your bill (agenda). And I'm more apt to find a different target than to
keep shooting for one out of range. Unfortunately there's no motivation
to ever shoot at that target again. It'll always be out of range.
Leaving said shooting gallery wondering where everyone went... Is it
really just a recession, or is something else going on?
Shadow_7
Multikey is legal in both major competitive circuits now. Along with 4
valvers and other things. Although from what I've seen of the video of
blast, they use trombones and traditional french horns (not bell front),
which would rule them out from current rules. Although still technically
a brass band with visual elements.
The Marine D&B is a special case. Most military bands have a secondary
non-band mission. They might be the exception. They also have a numbers
limit, which might fall short of either circuits minimum. Although from
what I've read of their rules, that number is determined by the head
cheese and not laid in stoned like almost all other military bands. Most
of which are set at 40, including commander, drum major, woodwinds,
piano, guitar, extra buglers for taps, yada yada yada. Which as a
drumcorps would leave almost ALL professional groups shy of most
competitive circuits criteria. Even if they had the proper
instrumentation.
Big Rich Soprano
>...if you label it "Drum and Bugle Corps" it does But that hasn't
>*really* been the case since...well, pick your poison, where do you
>draw the line? Adding a piston, then screwing it down for half the
>hornline? Unscrewing the piston? Adding a rotary valve? Going to
>upright two-valve...three valve "G"...multi key? I think it is, or
>very soon will be, a derivation issue: from where is this performing
>group rooted. So I think Blast is a prime example of "Pro" drum
>corps...there is no doubt it sprang from Star and was initially
>composed of those kids...
I know Charlie, i'm not too sure what to think as it is. I like the 3
valved G horns though but i really love the 2 valved ones...
Big Rich Soprano
>Multikey is legal in both major competitive circuits now.
Yah now... but what bout earlier?..
>..........................................................................Along with 4
>valvers and other things. Although from what I've seen of the video of
>blast, they use trombones and traditional french horns (not bell front),
>which would rule them out from current rules. Although still technically
>a brass band with visual elements.
>The Marine D&B is a special case.
In many ways!
>...............................................Most military bands have a secondary
>non-band mission. They might be the exception. They also have a numbers
>limit, which might fall short of either circuits minimum. Although from
>what I've read of their rules, that number is determined by the head
>cheese and not laid in stoned like almost all other military bands. Most
>of which are set at 40, including commander, drum major, woodwinds,
>piano, guitar, extra buglers for taps, yada yada yada. Which as a
>drumcorps would leave almost ALL professional groups shy of most
>competitive circuits criteria. Even if they had the proper
>instrumentation.
Well i didn't know about the limit. That's interesting. Although i do
remember seeing larger groups in the military...
Big Rich Soprano
>your bill (agenda). And I'm more apt to find a different target than to
>keep shooting for one out of range. Unfortunately there's no motivation
>to ever shoot at that target again. It'll always be out of range.
>Leaving said shooting gallery wondering where everyone went... Is it
>really just a recession, or is something else going on?
Have you ever thought maybe it's you that is keeping your group back?
Like Robbie Robinson Sr kept Crossmen back by being himself -
something to think about...
flu...@msn.com
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:55:48 -0500, Big Rich Soprano wrote:
> >>Let me guess, you're the new DCA PR guy? Or are you just auditioning
> >>for the role?
>
> > It just might be your personal agenda - did ya ever think of that?.. i
> > didn't think so...
>
> Which agenda would that be? To participate in a PAY to PLAY drumcorps.
> And get a score for my efforts / funds? And maybe get some media
> coverage that doesn't suck (yeah, they finally changed vendors (five
> years too late)). And not get called an ASS by the DCA PR guy because a
> group has more than 30, but less than 35 members. Thus ending our season
> early since we spent all of it playing a numbers game, and were ill
> prepared to PERFORM. While paying DCA hundreds of dollars just to get
> them to MAYBE do the basics involved with a competitive drumcorps circuit.
>
> Yes, I have an agenda. I want things to be a certain way. Just like
> everyone else has an agenda. For some it's to win. For others it's to
> just be allowed to play the game. Something which USED TO not be a
> MAYBE. Unlike corporate america, DCA is NOT too big to fail. And is
> thus not eligible for a bailout. (But don't tell them that, they might
> call you names). Things could be so different (and better). But by all
> means keep your agenda. And when your "championship" has 6 or less corps
> competing for 14 finalists spots, I'll still be here to tell you I told
> you so. I'll still be wanting to help, and you'll still be calling me
> names. Gotta love evolution.
Well I won't call you names...but i will question your math skills.
DCA is growing faster than ever...with the Alumni show case, the mini
corps show, Open and class A there had to be 60 or more Drum Corps at
nationals this season. So where is the drop off to 6 corps you're
talking about? Your math skills suck and you're relentless hope for
the failure of D&BC in general makes you sound like just another
disgruntled EX member of DC, come to whine on ramd....ho hum...;]
How ordinary...
George
dbriggs
> Multikey is legal in both major competitive circuits now. Along with 4
> valvers and other things. Although from what I've seen of the video of
> blast, they use trombones and traditional french horns (not bell front),
> which would rule them out from current rules. Although still technically
> a brass band with visual elements.
think you may be referring to Blast II, the short lived, jazzier
version. I saw Blast 3 or 4 times (Blast II once), and altho' my video
copy has disappeared, and I can't remember who I lent it to, I don't
recall the non-dc brass in the original
cya
Shadow_7
Considering that I was just doing the media coverage up until the point
that key members started quiting. Not likely.
Considering that the corps was using my horns (50% of the corps) that
first year. Not likely.
Given that I pay my dues. Show up to rehearsal and stuff. Not likely.
Have you ever considered that making the point of entry so high that new
corps are more likely to fail than succeed. Sure we can't directly blame
DCA for that now. But it would have been nice to show some 30+ people
what DCA is (was). Who have never been themselves. And may likely never
go under current rules.
flu...@msn.com
I remember a unicycle/trombone solo in "Officer Krupke" ...also
vaguely remember a french horn interlude. The rest were bell front
instruments I think.
George
Shadow_7
> Well I won't call you names...but i will question your math skills. DCA
> is growing faster than ever...with the Alumni show case, the mini corps
> show, Open and class A there had to be 60 or more Drum Corps at
> nationals this season. So where is the drop off to 6 corps you're
> talking about? Your math skills suck and you're relentless hope for the
> failure of D&BC in general makes you sound like just another disgruntled
> EX member of DC, come to whine on ramd....ho hum...;] How ordinary...
> George
Minicorps is an MCA event, not DCA. They don't even get scores at
regional DCA shows. And it's also capped at the first 20 postmarks, so 5
more corps and it'll never grow again.
2005 16 open class corps at prelims
2009 13 open class corps at prelims
And some corps, given a choice other than minicorps, would. And not have
to cut the corps in half, leave the guard at home, yada yada yada. Not a
condition that favors a strong core corps with a competitive field show
as a goal.
Alumni corps has grown, but no scores, not much of anything. And
probably the worst scheduling of the entire weekend. i.e. the only
MORNING show(on the schedule). Or at least that's how it was four years
ago.
According to the rules of DCA, PRELIMS is THE show. Votes, finals, and
everything is determined by PRELIMS. Neither minicorps, nor alumni corps
perform at PRELIMS. So I'm not sure where your math deficiency lays.
The numbers are there as archived on corpsreps.com . All I know is that
there's more corps than ever in the state of Texas and the fewest number
of DCA shows EVER in the state of Texas. Making the nearest DCA
sanctioned show 700 miles out, and 500 miles further than it USED TO BE.
Thanks in part to that one lamest of all lame rules.
Sis
Yeah, I remember being highly disappointed because it wasn't drum corps.
Didn't buy the CD.
Jackie
Big Rich Soprano
>> vaguely remember a french horn interlude. The rest were bell front
>> instruments I think.
>Yeah, I remember being highly disappointed because it wasn't drum corps.
> Didn't buy the CD.
They came out with concert instruments and played with that brass
quintet who's name escapes me for the moment...
Sis
Remember, Bill Cook never said it was drum corps, in fact he said it was
not. Drum corps inspired, yes. Drum corps, no.
Jackie
rlrr
>
> They came out with concert instruments and played with that brass
> quintet who's name escapes me for the moment...
>
Canadian Brass
"When belief in a god dies, the god dies."
-- Harlan Ellison, "Deathbird Stories"
Charlie Groh
...what I said...heh...
cg
Charlie Groh
<wwwSh...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:37:52 -0800, flu...@msn.com wrote:
>
>> Well I won't call you names...but i will question your math skills. DCA
>> is growing faster than ever...with the Alumni show case, the mini corps
>> show, Open and class A there had to be 60 or more Drum Corps at
>> nationals this season. So where is the drop off to 6 corps you're
>> talking about? Your math skills suck and you're relentless hope for the
>> failure of D&BC in general makes you sound like just another disgruntled
>> EX member of DC, come to whine on ramd....ho hum...;] How ordinary...
>> George
>
>Minicorps is an MCA event, not DCA. They don't even get scores at
>regional DCA shows. And it's also capped at the first 20 postmarks, so 5
>more corps and it'll never grow again.
...betcha if more want to participate DCA will make it happen...that
is one hellacious evening of blood and gutz competition and is
becoming more and more popular...don't know the attendance stats, but
there were ALOT of people in that venue this year.
>
>2005 16 open class corps at prelims
Gold, Sunrisers and Kingston were open class in '05 and went "A" this
year...the only '05 Open Class group no longer fielding (as of right
now, anyhow) is Sky.
>2009 13 open class corps at prelims
...two new entrants in Open Class (as opposed to '05) were Music City
Legend and Alliance; both of which were "A" in '05. "A" class had 12
entrants this year (as opposed to 10 in '05), with 3 newer groups
(Fusion,Sun Devils,and Vigilantes)...the level of competition in "A"
class is, for want of a better word, badass. Missing from '05 were
Frontier,Dream (which fielded a mini corps), Chops Inc. and Heat
Wave...out of those, Vigilantes was a result of a schism in Frontier
(or so I was told).
Numbers: 26 competing corps in '05...25 in '09...gone or inactive from
'05: Heat Wave,Mon Valley Express,Skyliners,Chops,Frontier. New
since: Vigilantes,Fusion Core,Sun Devils and Excelsior.
>
>And some corps, given a choice other than minicorps, would. And not have
>to cut the corps in half, leave the guard at home, yada yada yada. Not a
>condition that favors a strong core corps with a competitive field show
>as a goal.
...Dream last year did minicorps and had a full season marching out
here...some of the guard came to compete in I&E, too. You make of it
what you can... if you truly want to participate, that is.
>
>Alumni corps has grown, but no scores, not much of anything.
...well, you're full of it here. You ever gone to the Alumni
Spectacular? You are nuts...they blow the house down, had at least 4
doing drill...the "competition" is self-imposed and, speaking as
someone who hasn't missed in 7 years...every year they, collectively,
get better. So what if it's in the AM?...it's a drum corps
WEEKEND...keep your head on straight and you can experience a melange
of DC, competitive,individual and historic, that you can savor 'til
the next year come's round...or maybe not if you're nursing that bad
hangover...heh...
> And probably the worst scheduling of the entire weekend. i.e. the only
>MORNING show(on the schedule). Or at least that's how it was four years
>ago.
>
>According to the rules of DCA, PRELIMS is THE show. Votes, finals, and
>everything is determined by PRELIMS. Neither minicorps, nor alumni corps
>perform at PRELIMS. So I'm not sure where your math deficiency lays.
>The numbers are there as archived on corpsreps.com . All I know is that
>there's more corps than ever in the state of Texas and the fewest number
>of DCA shows EVER in the state of Texas. Making the nearest DCA
>sanctioned show 700 miles out, and 500 miles further than it USED TO BE.
>Thanks in part to that one lamest of all lame rules.
...here you go again. Pussy-talk (sorry gurlz, but you know that
really isn't a gender reference...).
cg
Dave Adams
My point mentioning them wasn't that they were a drum & bugle corps,
Stuart was asking for examples of what it could look like, which I
took to mean "how might it be organized and operated?"
-Dave
Stu
I thought Charlie hit the nail on the head: "... where do you
draw the line? ... I think it is, or very soon will be, a derivation
issue"
... and then drove the nail in at an angle: "I think Blast is a prime
example of "Pro" drum
corps..." (unbeknownst to himself, Charlie is an unabashed bando).
This is, again, the musician's angle - "drum corps is a musical
organization, developed with a repertoire, performed on the finest
instruments built for *indoor* acoustics and *indoor* performance
settings." In other words, "drum corps is marching band." Confusing
the two is like watching tv and saying, "I need to get out and take a
walk. Where's 'The Walking Channel'?"
DCI and Blast have been led too far down the road by too many people
(who don't know the medium) to turn back now. They are marching
bands, and we must recognize that if we are ever to rediscover drum
corps. That is the road DCI and Blast chose. As I understand, Blast
plays on band instruments designed for indoor acoustics. They do not
play bugles. Their interest in drill is minimal. Their interest in
percussion is omnivorous. Their interest in visual is outside the
drum and bugle corps convention (of which we have no reliable example
to point out). AS IS THE CASE WITH DCI, to one degree or another.
The problem that confronts us is "what is the medium of drum and bugle
corps." There are two ways to answer this - (1) what does it come
from, what personifies it," and "who are its audience?"
In identifying/serving the audience, can I suggest we stop allowing
them to tell us what drum corps is? Can we stop allowing their
divergent musical tastes steer its construction? Can we stop
empowering every two-bit Harold Hill who wants to sell us band
uniforms and band instruments? Can we get our heads out of the music
long enough to design a future for this medium that respects its
primary media - drill, guard, and signaling?
It would be imperative to set up an infrastructure (pro or otherwise)
that is impervious to merchandising, self-promotion, and the
ideologies of music education that have been co-opting this activity
for as long as the oldest of us can remember. This would require an
impossible standard of integrity and continuous self-examination with
the current lot of self-promoting enthusiasts and kool-aid drinkers
(Charlie being a good example), however articulate.
The best intentions among us are thoroughly corrupted by music
education and marketing mindsets. We are all band-aholics, and the
first step toward recovery is recognizing the fact. How did we get
this way? To put a finer point on it, DCI (now a division of the
MENC) has turned us into creative prostitutes ... and prostitution is
a tough lifestyle to leave behind.
Stuart E. Rice
Shadow_7
Factor in that there's more all-age corps now than in '05 and DCA means
less to more. Factor into that what you will.
25? You're including the minicorps champs at the finals show in that
number. Or did you not realize 11 "A" class competitors. 11+13 == 24.
Or is the posted history inaccurate? Still fewer corps in total, in the
presence of MORE corps that COULD HAVE...
Charlie Groh
<wwwSh...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
...you're right, I counted Dream in but that year they went back as a
mini corps...point here is that they somehow make that work when
membership is an issue...still, in my opinion DCA is healthy and
getting healthier...since you are saving your dough, James, why not go
to Rochester this year and see if it's how you think it is or
what...plus you'd get a opportunity to schmooze and maybe get some
political work done. Just a thought...
cg
Charlie Groh
wrote:
>Some great comments.
>
>I thought Charlie hit the nail on the head: "... where do you
>draw the line? ... I think it is, or very soon will be, a derivation
>issue"
>
>... and then drove the nail in at an angle: "I think Blast is a prime
>example of "Pro" drum
>corps..." (unbeknownst to himself, Charlie is an unabashed bando).
...even for you, Stuart...jeeze man, I was marching *real* drumcorps
14 years before you did your cup of coffee with BD. The fact that I
accept the present situation doesn't make me a "bando" (I will refrain
from name calling here...tempting, tho)...honor this; your "bando" is
post '82, mine is born of the 60's and is/was truly an insult. And I
know myself quite well, been workin' on that for awhile (thanks for
your assumption, however)...
>
>This is, again, the musician's angle - "drum corps is a musical
>organization, developed with a repertoire, performed on the finest
>instruments built for *indoor* acoustics and *indoor* performance
>settings." In other words, "drum corps is marching band." Confusing
>the two is like watching tv and saying, "I need to get out and take a
>walk. Where's 'The Walking Channel'?"
...you mince words to suit your needs...no real harm to a discerning
reader, tho, but tedious...
>
>DCI and Blast have been led too far down the road by too many people
>(who don't know the medium) to turn back now. They are marching
>bands, and we must recognize that if we are ever to rediscover drum
>corps. That is the road DCI and Blast chose. As I understand, Blast
>plays on band instruments designed for indoor acoustics. They do not
>play bugles. Their interest in drill is minimal. Their interest in
>percussion is omnivorous. Their interest in visual is outside the
>drum and bugle corps convention (of which we have no reliable example
>to point out). AS IS THE CASE WITH DCI, to one degree or another.
...when is the last time you attended a Blast performance, Stuart?
I've been to a couple...and walked out impressed with their attention
to the details of marching/movement...the "guard" work was modern, but
very, very clean...the percussion was just that, with a noticable
homage to their roots. No, straight bell front isn't the norm, but,
again, the origin is corps, no doubt.
>
>The problem that confronts us is "what is the medium of drum and bugle
>corps." There are two ways to answer this - (1) what does it come
>from, what personifies it," and "who are its audience?"
...that's not a problem, it's a definition...go to the Alumni
Spectacular at DCA's and you have your answer. I agree, it is not the
DCI product...and, getting to the thrust of what I wrote, it is
disappearing, literally dying off. What's left of the olde "real"
fife and drum corps other than reenactments, true pageantry history
lessons...the same will happen to the true Drum and Bugle Corps.
>
>In identifying/serving the audience, can I suggest we stop allowing
>them to tell us what drum corps is? Can we stop allowing their
>divergent musical tastes steer its construction? Can we stop
>empowering every two-bit Harold Hill who wants to sell us band
>uniforms and band instruments? Can we get our heads out of the music
>long enough to design a future for this medium that respects its
>primary media - drill, guard, and signaling?
>
>It would be imperative to set up an infrastructure (pro or otherwise)
>that is impervious to merchandising, self-promotion, and the
>ideologies of music education that have been co-opting this activity
>for as long as the oldest of us can remember. This would require an
>impossible standard of integrity and continuous self-examination with
>the current lot of self-promoting enthusiasts and kool-aid drinkers
>(Charlie being a good example), however articulate.
Heh, four legs good, two legs better my man...my kool-aid is reality,
Stuart, my bottom line is the participants. If I were emperor things
would be different, I'm sure...but I choose to work with the kids of
today nonetheless.
>
>The best intentions among us are thoroughly corrupted by music
>education and marketing mindsets. We are all band-aholics, and the
>first step toward recovery is recognizing the fact. How did we get
>this way? To put a finer point on it, DCI (now a division of the
>MENC) has turned us into creative prostitutes ... and prostitution is
>a tough lifestyle to leave behind.
I see the same phenomenon you do, Stu. Much less of it in the DCA
side of the activity, which is why I'm hangin' there. But you never
know, if it marches around and needs my help (read "wants") I might
still function within the beast...
Your heart is OK, Stuart...
cg
>
>
>Stuart E. Rice
Charlie Groh
<chas...@dslextremerage.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:50:23 -0800 (PST), Stu <chore...@juno.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Some great comments.
>>
>>I thought Charlie hit the nail on the head: "... where do you
>>draw the line? ... I think it is, or very soon will be, a derivation
>>issue"
>>
>>... and then drove the nail in at an angle: "I think Blast is a prime
>>example of "Pro" drum
>>corps..." (unbeknownst to himself, Charlie is an unabashed bando).
>
>...even for you, Stuart...jeeze man, I was marching *real* drumcorps
>14 years before you did your cup of coffee with BD. The fact that I
>accept the present situation doesn't make me a "bando" (I will refrain
>from name calling here...tempting, tho)...honor this; your "bando" is
>post '82, mine is born of the 60's and is/was truly an insult. And I
>know myself quite well, been workin' on that for awhile (thanks for
>your assumption, however)...
OOPS! Make that 24 years...YIKES!
flu...@msn.com
Well the math is still better than yours 24 is no where near 6.
ns787980
> On Dec 18, 1:07�pm, Stu <choreoma...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Anyone else here have aspirations of the activity formerly respected
> > as "drum and bugle corps" being more than a charity case?
>
> > Granted, it has all the independence and political pull of a college
> > marching band that won't use the stadium unless nobody is looking.
>
> > Granted, sucking up to music education has only taken the art form
> > back to the stone age and into the playlists of people with other
> > interests.
>
> > Granted, the public no longer has any idea what a drum and bugle corps
> > is (or means of learning), thanks to DCI.
>
> > But drumming, bugling, marching, and flag/rifle/sabre still have
> > cultural value and historic relevance.
>
> > How would a professional organization look and develop?
>
> > Stuart E. Rice
>
> Corps drum & bugle corps, the other being Blast!.
> For that matter you could throw in The Old Guard.
>
> been done".
>
> -Dave Adams-- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wait.... aren't you a DCP defector?
Coming out of the woodworks!
Dave Adams????
Ok.. Mike Davis... Dave Adams...
WHO IS NEXT???
I want GEORGE DIXON to write on RAMD next.
Sharon
ns787980
Wait a minute...
When DCA is called for what it's become... a shell of DCI? WHO is
going to make it's alumni?
Ordinary? That's what DCA has become.
All of it's ALUMNI were ordinary to begin with.
Just check what they've been doing the last FIFTEEN years.
Sharon
Dave Adams
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now I want you to tell me Sharon, and I'm serious about this, just how
could I be a "DCP defector" when I've never been a "DCP member"?
Care to answer that?
Maybe apologize?
-Dave Adams-
RAMD poster 1996-present
DCP Member- never
Big Rich Soprano
>>> Didn't buy the CD.
>> They came out with concert instruments and played with that brass
>> quintet who's name escapes me for the moment...
>Remember, Bill Cook never said it was drum corps, in fact he said it was
>not. Drum corps inspired, yes. Drum corps, no.
Yesss iii doooo...
Big Rich Soprano
>> quintet who's name escapes me for the moment...
>Canadian Brass
Thank you very much! Sheesh how could i forget them - and a drummer
had to remind me yet - score a great big Triple Radamaque for the
drummer!!!
Big Rich Soprano
>Maybe apologize?
How much time ya got hehehe...
flu...@msn.com
says you...the no ones better than me and my corps queen...big
surprise
...;]
>
> All of it's ALUMNI were ordinary to begin with.
How dare you group ALL the people together...your starting sound like
your girl friend CB again.
>
> Just check what they've been doing the last FIFTEEN years.
It's called Drum Corps and I like it a lot. Sorry it's passed you by.
George
>
> Sharon
flu...@msn.com
Never going to happen for two reasons. One: she's never wrong and two:
she won't read and/or remember what she wrote.
George
Stu
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:50:23 -0800 (PST), Stu <choreoma...@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Some great comments.
>
> >I thought Charlie hit the nail on the head: "... where do you
> >draw the line? ... I think it is, or very soon will be, a derivation
> >issue"
>
> >... and then drove the nail in at an angle: "I think Blast is a prime
> >example of "Pro" drum
> >corps..." (unbeknownst to himself, Charlie is an unabashed bando).
>
> ...even for you, Stuart...jeeze man, I was marching *real* drumcorps
> 14 years before you did your cup of coffee with BD.
Which is what makes you such a great example of the slow-boiled frog.
Hold still - I'm stereotyping you (smile - its a worthy cause).
> The fact that I
> accept the present situation doesn't make me a "bando"
I'm not prepared to pay you the compliment that you know any better.
> (I will refrain
> from name calling here...tempting, tho)...honor this; your "bando" is
> post '82, mine is born of the 60's and is/was truly an insult.
Charlie, this whole activity, decades in the making, is now bando.
What makes you so special that you can escape its influence
(particularly as one who 'accepts the situation'?). You're a product
of the environment precisely because you accept it.
> And I
> know myself quite well, been workin' on that for awhile (thanks for
> your assumption, however)...
If we can only get you to recognize what a bando DCI made of you,
there might be hope for you.
> >This is, again, the musician's angle - "drum corps is a musical
> >organization, developed with a repertoire, performed on the finest
> >instruments built for *indoor* acoustics and *indoor* performance
> >settings." In other words, "drum corps is marching band." Confusing
> >the two is like watching tv and saying, "I need to get out and take a
> >walk. Where's 'The Walking Channel'?"
>
> ...you mince words to suit your needs...no real harm to a discerning
> reader, tho, but tedious...
No sign of an argument here. What else ya got.
> >DCI and Blast have been led too far down the road by too many people
> >(who don't know the medium) to turn back now. They are marching
> >bands, and we must recognize that if we are ever to rediscover drum
> >corps. That is the road DCI and Blast chose. As I understand, Blast
> >plays on band instruments designed for indoor acoustics. They do not
> >play bugles. Their interest in drill is minimal. Their interest in
> >percussion is omnivorous. Their interest in visual is outside the
> >drum and bugle corps convention (of which we have no reliable example
> >to point out). AS IS THE CASE WITH DCI, to one degree or another.
>
> ...when is the last time you attended a Blast performance, Stuart?
Around 2003. And one was plenty.
> I've been to a couple...and walked out impressed with their attention
> to the details of marching/movement...the "guard" work was modern, but
> very, very clean...
Their cleanliness is entirely beside the point of their content.
> the percussion was just that, with a noticable
> homage to their roots.
"Homage to their roots" was actually just homage to their audience.
They'd probably play sitting down the whole time if they thought it
would win them more acclaim and ticket sales.
>No, straight bell front isn't the norm, but,
> again, the origin is corps, no doubt.
Their origin is DCI via corporate America. Enough said.
> >The problem that confronts us is "what is the medium of drum and bugle
> >corps." There are two ways to answer this - (1) "what does it come
> >from/what personifies it," and (2) "who are its audience?"
>
> ...that's not a problem, it's a definition...
Only for people who don't know what to do with a question mark.
> go to the Alumni
> Spectacular at DCA's and you have your answer.
"You have to *experience* it to get it." I wonder how many tickets
were sold by this former drum corps activity with that line.
> >In identifying/serving the audience, can I suggest we stop allowing
> >them to tell us what drum corps is? Can we stop allowing their
> >divergent musical tastes steer its construction? Can we stop
> >empowering every two-bit Harold Hill who wants to sell us band
> >uniforms and band instruments? Can we get our heads out of the music
> >long enough to design a future for this medium that respects its
> >primary media - drill, guard, and signaling?
>
> >It would be imperative to set up an infrastructure (pro or otherwise)
> >that is impervious to merchandising, self-promotion, and the
> >ideologies of music education that have been co-opting this activity
> >for as long as the oldest of us can remember. This would require an
> >impossible standard of integrity and continuous self-examination with
> >the current lot of self-promoting enthusiasts and kool-aid drinkers
> >(Charlie being a good example), however articulate.
>
> Heh, four legs good, two legs better my man...my kool-aid is reality,
That kool-aid flavored "reality" killed a few hundred drum corps,
depriving us of 90% of the activity DCI inherited. What I say to DCI,
I say to you: sponging off music education isn't going to save you.
> Stuart, my bottom line is the participants. If I were emperor things
> would be different, I'm sure...but I choose to work with the kids of
> today nonetheless.
You can't care for who you teach without caring for what you teach.
> >The best intentions among us are thoroughly corrupted by music
> >education and marketing mindsets. We are all band-aholics, and the
> >first step toward recovery is recognizing the fact. How did we get
> >this way? To put a finer point on it, DCI (now a division of the
> >MENC) has turned us into creative prostitutes ... and prostitution is
> >a tough lifestyle to leave behind.
>
> I see the same phenomenon you do, Stu. Much less of it in the DCA
> side of the activity, which is why I'm hangin' there. But you never
> know, if it marches around and needs my help (read "wants") I might
> still function within the beast...
Charlie, why do you want to lay down and die? I can understand "you
can't teach an old dog new tricks," but you don't want to learn old
tricks either. You don't want to go back and solve the problems your
generation left us with. You don't want to confront the dilemma of
outdoor acoustics. You don't want to establish uniform standards.
You don't want to teach choreographed marching. You just want
everyone to wear a groove in the turf while they play the latest music
education head-trip. What does that accomplish, apart from just
another season of musical visibility?
Stuart E. Rice
Shadow_7
> Well the math is still better than yours 24 is no where near 6.
You don't get to 6 beers on the second verse of 99 bottles of beer on the
wall. But you do get there.
Shadow_7
You know what's funny. When DCA announced that they changed media
vendors. My first thought was, Hmmm $1,000 ain't that much. But it's
still hard to justify on a MAYBE. Don't kid yourself, everyone is a
MAYBE as long as that 35 minimum is in place. It does more harm than
good IMO. Or at least things are a lot more costly with it than it was
ever without it.
flu...@msn.com
Not if you're not redundant or much to intelligent to sing that silly
song.
Good luck with then other 93 bottles...;}
George
flu...@msn.com
STFU you has-been - wanna-be...hows that for labels or names. You
marched for a month and know-it-all...too funny for words.
George
flu...@msn.com
Not true....as a director of a winterguard program...the more kids we
have the cheaper it is for everyone...recruitment is the key.
George
Shadow_7
>> You know what's funny. When DCA announced that they changed media
>> vendors. My first thought was, Hmmm $1,000 ain't that much. But it's
>> still hard to justify on a MAYBE. Don't kid yourself, everyone is a
>> MAYBE as long as that 35 minimum is in place. It does more harm than
>> good IMO. Or at least things are a lot more costly with it than it was
>> ever without it.
>
> Not true....as a director of a winterguard program...the more kids we
> have the cheaper it is for everyone...recruitment is the key. George
???
It might work for Winter Guard, but you have what? 1 out of state show.
In DCA, all DCA shows are OUT OF STATE (for this region) (and it's 300+
miles to leave this state). About all that more members would do is
allow us to take a bus, instead of 3+ vans. But the bus still costs more
than vans. So not really a savings. aka Not cheaper. Maybe with 100+
members. But not with 50-.
And it seems that those corps with competitive status doubled their dues
since they now have a (regional)monopoly.
Shadow_7
Hi, I'm your doctor and I know how to fix you, but I really can't be
bothered with that. Your bedside manner must be all the rage. Past a
certain education and intelligence, EVERYTHING is redundant and silly.
Said the guy to the other guy who marched drumcorps and played a single
ten minute show for an ENTIRE YEAR. Sorry drum major, I'm sitting this
show out, I did the last three, so it's my day off.
The max was 26 corps. And we're already down 2. For those of us that
can count. And can be bothered to count. Which leaves only 18 till 6.
They'll cancel the prelims show long before then though, since everyone
will automatically be a finalist.
ns787980
Didn't you? LEAVE? This newsgroup. Wasn't it possible for YOU
elsewhere? Be HONEST.
I believe that people like YOU made it impossible for people to write
what they thought about drum and bugle corps.
And then YOU left. RAMD.
Be honest Mr Adams. You discarded this newsgroup.
FOR DCP. Right??
Sharon
ns787980
Better than me? I've seen better than me going back to the 60's.
>
>
>
> > All of it's ALUMNI were ordinary to begin with.
>
> How dare you group ALL the people together...your starting sound like
> your girl friend CB again.
I dare. And it looks like YOU are discouraging EVERYONE else!
>
>
>
> > Just check what they've been doing the last FIFTEEN years.
>
> It's called Drum Corps and I like it a lot. Sorry it's passed you by.
Oh good... Ya think it's drum corps?
For christ sakes... there is A DANCE TROUPE!
For christ sakes... The drum line IS NO more!
For christ sakes...CONCERT INSTRUMENTS... OUTDOORS!
For christ sakes...
Too bad. YOU like IT.
Sharon
Dave Adams
Nope. Sharon, you are completely wrong,, I have never, ever been a
member of DCP. And I am not planning on joining DCP. Do I need to make
that any more plain than that?
Now, its true I haven't posted here much lately. However, I didn't
leave. There isn't much for me to say about drum & bugle corps these
days because there isn't much drum & bugle corps going on- mostly
marching band. The one thing you could say is that there is now a
group on Facebook for the junior corps I marched for 10 years- the
Scarlet Knights of Gurnee IL, and I've spent some of my time there
lately. Even that doesn't occupy a huge block of time though.
And if you look at the number of posts (Ithink its about 1200 or so)
I've written since I started on this newsgroup, it averages to about 2
per week.Other than a few brief periods, I've never been a major
poster here.
I also have to ask how I made it impossible for you or anyone else to
write about what they thought about drum & bugle corps. Especially
given my 2 posts per week run rate. Just what is is that I did anyway?
In what way did I stop you for example? Just what was it that you were
going to write that you stopped yourself and said "Dave Adams isn't
going to like this"? Don't understand your comment at all.
By my count that's two things you've said about me that are flat-out
untrue, and one that I very much doubt. Merry Christmas.
-Dave Adams-
flu...@msn.com
>
> For Christ sakes... The drum line IS NO more!
>
> For Christ sakes...CONCERT INSTRUMENTS... OUTDOORS!
>
> For Christ sakes...
>
> Too bad. YOU like IT.
>
> Sharon
YES I DO...;} For Christ's sake...God Bless DC...;}
George
Stu
> > > On Dec 22, 9:35 pm, ns787980 <sharca...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > Wait.... aren't you a DCP defector?
> > > Now I want you to tell me Sharon, and I'm serious about this, just how
> > > could I be a "DCP defector" when I've never been a "DCP member"?
Please, please. As far as I'm concerned, we're ALL neo-con trad RAMD
nutjobs. :)
Stuart E. Rice
Jim Blansett
wrote:
>> > On Dec 23, 2:43 am, Dave Adams <dvad...@aol.com> wrote:
Hardly!
ns787980
Well certainly not. But don't your "sympathies" lie in a certain
direction?
>
> Now, its true I haven't posted here much lately. However, I didn't
> leave. There isn't much for me to say about drum & bugle corps these
> days because there isn't much drum & bugle corps going on- mostly
> marching band. The one thing you could say is that there is now a
> group on Facebook for the junior corps I marched for 10 years- the
> Scarlet Knights of Gurnee IL, and I've spent some of my time there
> lately. Even that doesn't occupy a huge block of time though.
I've had the pleasure too. Facebook is a cool thing. There is no
judgement is there?
>
> And if you look at the number of posts (Ithink its about 1200 or so)
> I've written since I started on this newsgroup, it averages to about 2
> per week.Other than a few brief periods, I've never been a major
> poster here.
Sure you've made a major impact HERE. IMHO you have. In fact, I
believe I've had a discussion (err... arguement..) or two with you.
>
> I also have to ask how I made it impossible for you or anyone else to
> write about what they thought about drum & bugle corps. Especially
> given my 2 posts per week run rate. Just what is is that I did anyway?
> In what way did I stop you for example? Just what was it that you were
> going to write that you stopped yourself and said "Dave Adams isn't
> going to like this"? Don't understand your comment at all.
Really? I would argue drum corps with you any day. It's sweet when
people are NOT like the OTHER people. And as far as I know they left
for DCP where they WON'T be "CHALLENGED". And I really thought that
YOU went there.
Sorry!
>
> By my count that's two things you've said about me that are flat-out
> untrue, and one that I very much doubt. Merry Christmas.
Ick! Sorry!
Sharon
ns787980
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's too bad. It makes drum and bugle corps look like less.
Sharon
ns787980
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:27:58 -0800 (PST), Stu <choreoma...@juno.com>
neo-con trad RAMD nutjobs????
Really?
Sharon
Dave Adams
Apology accepted, and thank you.
Not sure what you meant when you wrote:
> Well certainly not. But don't your "sympathies" lie in a certain
> direction?
I've been pretty clear and pretty consistent that I think DCI copies
marching bands too slaveishly. I think they should go back to horns
pitched in G, no amps, no "duts", no talking on the field,and get rid
of the props and the excessive "programming". Oh yeah, and bring back
the traditional retreat where corps play themselves off . That is
where my sympathies lie. Are you talking about that?
As far as DCP goes, I have no problem with people who prefer moderated
discussion groups. Its not my thing; I really have no problem staying
out of other people's fights when I don't care to participate, so I
have no need of a moderator protecting me from my own worst impulses.
I prefer RAMD. I'd rather not have someone looking over my shoulder
and editing my posts. I can't say I've talked about that a lot, but I
have been pretty consistent with that opinion as well.
Now yes, I do acknowleged that I do challenge people when I disagree
with them. I am, admittedly a very opinionated person. Possibly some
people I've challenged here might have left this newsgroup over that.
I can't say anyone's ever confronted me about it, but who knows? Maybe
they were too intimidated!
And yes, I have chased off a few trolls and a couple of forgers too,
but those people were hardly interested in talking about drum & bugle
corps. At least one of them has come back to this group to apologize,
so I count that as a plus.
The thing I like about Facebook is that it draws in a lot of people
who ordinarily would not post either here or on DCP. The Scarlet
Knights group for example has 40 plus members. Most of these people I
have not heard from for 25 years or more and I literally grew up with
them.
Hope I've answered your question.
-Dave Adams-
ns787980
Your welcome Mr Adams..
Now... don't you think that this newsgroup is validated?
>
> Not sure what you meant when you wrote:
>
> > Well certainly not. �But don't your "sympathies" lie in a certain
> > direction?
>
> I've been pretty clear and pretty consistent that I think DCI copies
> marching bands too slaveishly. I think they should go back to horns
> pitched in G, no amps, no "duts", no talking on the field,and get rid
> of the props and the excessive "programming". Oh yeah, and bring back
> the traditional retreat where corps play themselves off . That is
> where my sympathies lie. Are you talking about that?
THAT was brilliant!
NEVER MIND! :)
>
> As far as DCP goes, I have no problem with people who prefer moderated
> discussion groups. Its not my thing; I really have no problem staying
> out of other people's fights when I don't care to participate, so I
> have no need of a moderator protecting me from my own worst impulses.
> I prefer RAMD. I'd rather not have someone looking over my shoulder
> and editing my posts. I can't say I've talked about that a lot, but I
> have been pretty consistent with that opinion as well.
And there ya go... I've always been pretty consistent too. Too bad
that what one would write on RAMD gets you BANNED on DCP. I've been
writing THAT forever!
>
> Now yes, I do acknowleged that I do challenge people when I disagree
> with them. I am, admittedly a very opinionated person. Possibly some
> people I've challenged here might have left this newsgroup over that.
> I can't say anyone's ever confronted me about it, but who knows? Maybe
> they were too intimidated!
Who is to say?
Let's think about that...
Vince? Nikk?
How about Lee?
Those three men thought a LOT about RAMD and spent quite a bit of
time here... IMPOSING their WILL.
Who knew that Vince, Nikk and Lee would lose ground.
ALL OF THEM TO JUST ONE WOMAN. And they just LOST it.
>
> And yes, I have chased off a few trolls and a couple of forgers too,
> but those people were hardly interested in talking about drum & bugle
> corps. At least one of them has come back to this group to apologize,
> so I count that as a plus.
See?
>
> The thing I like about Facebook is that it draws in a lot of people
> who ordinarily would not post either here or on DCP. The Scarlet
> Knights group for example has 40 plus members. Most of these people I
> have not heard from for 25 years or more and I literally grew up with
> them.
Mr Adams... those that realise what they have been given... know about
Facebook....
>
> Hope I've answered your question.
>
> -Dave Adams--
Sharon
flu...@msn.com
Now who can argue with that...;}
ns787980
Anyone?
Sharon
flu...@msn.com
See "NO-ONE can argue WITH that"
Anyone?...Beuller?
Stu
> neo-con trad RAMD nutjobs????
I've never gotten over what I percieved as "RAMD's fall from grace" in
the late 90s.
Stuart E. Rice
ns787980
Stuart...
I will remind you that your fellow "RAMDers" contributed to "RAMD's
fall from grace".
The rest of US that started participating in the late 90's didn't
AGREE with much of what was being written by a few men that controlled
this newsgroup.
Ultimately... those men fled the group.
Man... if I think about it... the MEN that LEFT.
Think about it!
There is SEVERAL that abandoned this group. Because they couldn't
TAKE criticism of any kind.
Sharon