Will Viz's Flower comics fly or flo
Stuart Gale
his presentation paper on shojo manga that he's previously mentioned. I've
amended the 'ReplyTo' and 'FollowUp' lines appropriately (I hope), so
anyone can also comment to him by e-mail at mt...@columbia.edu. I hope people
find this of interest.
***********************Begin text*******************************************
UNLIKELY EXPLORERS: ALTERNATIVE NARRATIVES OF LOVE, SEX, GENDER, AND
FRIENDSHIP IN JAPANESE "GIRLS'" COMICS
MATTHEW THORN--Department of Anthropology, Columbia University
This is a working draft, presented at the New York Conference on Asian
Studies, New Paltz, New York, October 16, 1993. Please do not quote from or
reproduce it without my permission. The bracketed numbers refer to the
transparencies shown during the presentation.
The foreign visitor's contact with teenage Japanese girls is often limited to
sightings on train station platforms and in shopping districts. They can be
seen giggling in groups of three or four; school uniforms of black, navy or
gray neatly ironed; handbags decorated with cute characters dangling from one
arm; hair plainly styled to meet school appearance codes. They present an
image of untainted innocence and childlike naivete. Often as not, Japanese
themselves are likely to share this image, and it sometimes seems that many of
the girls see themselves this way, too--that they even try to cultivate this
image. [1]
These same girls can also be seen sitting alone on the train,
hunched over this month's five-hundred page issue of Bessatsu Maagaretto
(Special Edition Margaret) or Gekkan Rara (Monthly LaLa), two popular shojo
manga, or "girls' comic," magazines. Peeking over the shoulder of one of
these girls, you, the outsider (whether foreign or native), are not likely to
revise your initial impression on the basis of what you see: fashionably
dressed characters gazing into each other's sparkling, saucer-like eyes as
flowers float inexplicably in the background. But if you don't have anything
to read yourself and keep glancing over long enough, you might come to a
curious realization: you can't always tell which characters are male and which
are female. You have just touched the surface of an extraordinary phenomenon
so taken for granted by shojo manga readers that most seem entirely oblivious
to it, and so contrary to the expectations of non-readers that they would
never imagine such a thing. But intellectual fans of Japanese shojo manga are
very much aware of what I call "sexual ambiguity" in this graphic-textual
medium created by and for girls and women. Androgynous characters are only
the most immediately visible expression of this phenomenon. Reading through
any month's issues of the top shojo manga magazines, you are certain also to
encounter generous amounts of cross-dressing and homosexuality, and perhaps
some transsexuality or hermaphroditism, as well. This sexual ambiguity is
by no means the central theme of shojo manga (which is undeniably heterosexual
romance, and interpersonal relations in the broadest sense), but it even
appears, for no compelling reason, as a secondary or tertiary theme or subplot
in many stories whose primary theme is entirely different. It is easy to see
why most readers take it for granted.
BACKGROUND
In order to make some sense of shojo manga, it is necessary to first frame
them within the larger context of manga in general and Japanese society as a
whole; in the U.S. there is no counterpart whatsoever to this medium, so it
may seem to an American listener that I'm making much ado about a phenomenon
of little consequence. In the U.S., comic books are stories of the
super-powered brawling of muscular men in tights, and are read mostly by young
boys and a small but dedicated following of adult men. Only a handful of
women and girls read comic books, and a cursory examination of a representa-
tive sample of comic books reveals why this is the case: American comics are
decidedly masculinist, despite the efforts of some artists and publishers to
bring "women's lib" into the world of the X-Men (who are not all men), Batman,
and all the other Something-Or-Another-Men. The fundamental premise of the
American comic book--superheroes foiling the evil plans of supervillains by
means of physical force--is hardly conducive to feminist revision, or even
feminine revision.
Contrast this with Japan, where one-third of all publications are some form of
manga; where the best selling manga magazine--which is far and away the best
selling magazine of any kind in Japan--claims a circulation of over six
million; where about a third of Japanese in their thirties, half of those in
their twenties, and nearly seventy percent of those between sixteen and
nineteen years of age say they like manga; where about forty percent of all
Japanese sixteen or older read manga regularly; and where subject matter runs
the gamut from history and science fiction to gourmet cooking and golf.
A Japanese manga story is the creation of one, occasionally two artists, and
first appears in serial form in a manga magazine, alongside the stories of a
dozen or so other artists. Episodes of an individual story are periodically
collected and printed in paperback, with a single title running anywhere from
a dozen pages to dozens of volumes. Unlike American comic book titles, such
as Batman, most manga stories have a preplanned plot and foreseeable
conclusion.
What distinguishes shojo manga from the popular shonen, or "boys'," genre of
manga, is an emphasis on relationships over action. Even shojo manga that
take the form of science fiction, fantasy or historical pieces are primarily
concerned with the complexities of interpersonal relations, romantic and
otherwise.
[2]Until the late 1960's, shojo manga were written almost exclusively by men,
for a market of pre-teen girls. At the dawn of the 1970's, however, a gender
revolution swept through the industry. A new generation of young women
artists moved in and took over, creating stories and characters far more
appealing to girls than the sappy, simple-minded romances men had been writing.
This group of artists came to be known collectively as the nijuyon-nen gumi,
or "49-ers," because so many were born in 1949, or the 24th year of the Showa
Era. It was the nijuyon-nen gumi that developed sexual ambiguity as one of the
primary concerns of shojo manga, [3] although the subject had been first
suggested by the great founding father of Japan's manga, Tezuka Osamu, in a
shojo manga titled Ribon no kishi, or "Knight of the Ribbon." (That's
"knight" as in "shining armor.") The work that set off the shojo manga boom in
1972, [4] Ikeda Riyoko's Berusaiyu no bara ("The Rose of Versailles") set the
tone by taking as its main character a woman who was raised to behave and
dress as a man. This character, a captain in the French army, draws the
romantic interest both of a man who is a subordinate in the unit she commands
and Marie Antoinette, whose personal bodyguard she has been made.
[5] In 1974, Hagio Moto wrote Toma no shinzo, "The Heart of Toma," a story of
love between two boys in a vaguely European, vaguely early 20th century boys
boarding school. The story begins with the suicide of fourteen year-old Toma,
whose love for an older boy, Yuri, has gone unrequited. In his final love
letter to Yuri, Toma writes:
To Yuri, one last time,
This is my love.
This is the sound of my heart.
Surely you must understand.
On the same day that the news of Toma's death reaches the boys' school, a new
student appears, Eric, who is almost identical to Toma. Eric becomes the
vehicle through which Yuri overcomes his guilt and grief. In the end we
discover that Yuri had in fact been in love with Toma, but felt that he was
unworthy of Toma's love because Yuri had apparently been gang-raped by a group
of older boys when he was an underclassman. Yuri resolves this problem, which
would seem to have been made unresolvable by Toma's suicide, by entering the
priesthood. In the Japanese cosmology, all individuals become a part of the
Buddha or kami (the Japanese word for a deity) when they die. By "marrying
God," then, Yuri is in fact consummating his love for the departed Toma.
In 1976, Takemiya Keiko shocked Japan and raised a storm of controversy by
dealing explicitly with what Hagio had only implied: sexual relations between
boys. Wasting no time, she went straight to the heart of the matter with this
now famous first scene to Kaze to ki no uta, "The Song of the Wind and the
Trees." [6] This story, too, is set in a European boys school, in Provence,
France, in 1880, and deals with a torrid romance between the pure-hearted
Serge and the cold-blooded Gilbert. Gilbert is the school prostitute, who
lets the decadent older boys have their way with him for a price. The
important theme in this story, which is typical of stories written in the late
seventies, is that, while pure love between boys (whether or not it is
expressed physically) is a beautiful thing, sex for the sake of lust is
something dirty, usually initiated by "older boys." The difference, then,
between same-sex love and "sodomy," then, is a mental, emotional one. Serge's
challenge is to make Gilbert realize this.
The successors of the nijuyon-nen gumi have continued to deal with themes of
sexual ambiguity, though the scale of the stories has become less mythic and
more grounded in everyday reality. [7] Works such as Akisato Wakuni's Nemureru
mori no binan ("The Sleeping Male Beauty,") portray gay life as it is actually
practiced and even take on the issue of A.I.D.S.
The most fascinating manifestation of sexual ambiguity in contemporary shojo
manga, however, is found not in the commercial magazines but in dojinshi,
manga created and published by amateur artists at their own expense and sold
at komikku maaketto ("comic markets"). The genre of dojinshi I speaking of
is generally known as Captain Tsubasa. [8] Captain Tsubasa is the name of a
long-running commercial boys' manga about high school soccer. The genre of
the same name originated when female fans of Captain Tsubasa took the two main
characters, both boys, and created their own stories, but with a twist: [9] the
two boys are lovers. The characters have become unrecognizable, as you can
see, and the genre has grown to include spinoffs of other commercial manga as
well as original stories, but always with two boys or young men portrayed as
lovers. The largest of these comic markets draw as many as two-hundred
thousand fans and thousands of artists, the vast majority of whom are girls
and young women in their teens and twenties. This summer I attended a comic
market in Osaka which drew several tens of thousands of participants from all
over the Kansai area and even from the Tokyo area. At this market, as at
others, the Captain Tsubasa genre was by far the largest represented.
WHAT'S IT ALL ABOUT?
I don't want to give the impression that male homosexuality is the primary
manifestation of the kind of sexual ambiguity I am discussing, which would be
androgyny in the broadest sense. It is remarkable, though, how comparatively
rare lesbianism is in these manga. In the few instances I have encountered,
it is never a main character who is a lesbian but rather a minor character.
The lesbian is usually portrayed as a tragic and in some ways dangerous
character. She is often wily and scheming, trying to seduce some innocent
young girl. As with male homosexuality, it is perfectly acceptable for a
young girl to develop a "crush" on an older girl in shojo manga stories, but
the portrayal of romantic love between women is far less sympathetic than that
of love between men.
This is one of the fascinating problems these manga pose. Why would young
girls be so interested in reading about male/male love, but not female/female
love? But of course the larger question is simply, What is this sexual
ambiguity all about? Why does it appeal so strongly to women and girls of the
postwar generations? Why this phenomenon and not another? Why in Japan but
not elsewhere?
There are two popular explanations of the sexual ambiguity that appears in
shojo manga. The first is the notion that cross-dressing in shojo manga
allows the reader to experience vicariously male privileges that are denied
them as women. This explanation is essentially political, but it is also
superficial. It may have made sense to some readers in the early seventies,
when so many stories seemed to involve a main female character who is raised,
for whatever reason, as a male, wearing male clothes and engaging in male
activities. But how, then, are we to account for the fact that, in general,
all characters, male and female, tend to be feminized in shojo manga? And, of
course, this answer does not even address the homosexuality that is so common.
Another popular interpretation of these stories is that androgynous characters
are not really bisexual (in the sense of having two sexualities) but rather
are asexual. Young girls, this theory suggests, are afraid of sex and want to
distance themselves from it, so the heroes in their manga must be distanced
from it, too. But whether or not young girls fear sexuality, it cannot be
denied that it is rampant in the manga they read. In order to conclude that
shojo manga characters are asexual, you must turn a blind eye to the profound
sexuality that is undeniably there. I would suggest, on the contrary, that
young girls do fear sexuality, but are at the same time fascinated by it and
want to confront it.
I've been studying shojo manga since 1988, and over time developed something
of a tentative theory of the theme of sexual ambiguity, which goes as follows:
As I said at the beginning of my paper, Japanese girls seem on the surface to
be "immature" in comparison to American girls of the same age. It comes as a
surprise, therefore, to discover that Japanese adolescent girls are very
sexually active--more so, in fact, than are boys . (Apparently, they must be
having sex with older boys and men.) But girls to do not flaunt this fact.
They seem to be very ambivalent about it.
Perhaps, then, shojo manga provide a safe, female-dominated world in which to
explore a broad range of possible human sexuality. Same-sex love between
male characters is in a sense ideal for three reasons. First, it allows
readers to project unvoiced feelings onto the male Other. Interestingly
enough, when Toma no shinzo was made into a live-action movie, all the parts
of the boys were played by girls. This made explicit what I had felt all
along: that Toma and Yuri and Eric and all their friends are actually girls in
drag, exploring same-sex feelings without striking to close to home.
Homosexuality in shojo manga also exposes girls to a non-threatening male
sexuality. As Japanese critic and novelist Hashimoto Osamu (who incidentally
is gay) has pointed out in a book of shojo manga criticism, a gay male, unlike
a heterosexual male or a lesbian, poses no threat to a girl who is not yet
comfortable with her own sexuality. A third purpose of same-sex love between
male characters is to help girls try to make of sense of the mysterious male
animal by casting him in terms that she can understand, by feminizing him and
making him more interested in relationships than in, say, soccer.
Perhaps what we are seeing in shojo manga, then, is an ongoing effort on the
part of readers (and perhaps artists, too) to come to grips with a blossoming
sexuality that has profound implications for their lives beyond the narrow
arena of reproduction. That these manga continue to be popular with adult
women readers, and even attract a number of male readers, speaks to the fact
that the questions they pose about human sexuality and gender continue to
puzzle us even as adults.
This was my basic formulation, but I was never quite satisfied with it. I
always felt there must be some perfect answer, some key that would unlock all
the mysteries of shojo manga, a key that had eluded me but that I would
uncover in time. This summer, however, when I was doing preliminary
dissertation research in Kobe, Japan, I had an experience that might be
described as an anti-epiphany. It started innocently enough when I began a
conversation with an employee at a manga shop where I was doing research. I
knew she was a fan of gay male manga of the Captain Tsubasa variety, and I
showed her an essay by shojo manga artist Takemiya Keiko which suggested that
the Japanese woman's fascination with gay male love was a first step towards
true feminism.
The manga shop employee, Satoh-san, began commenting on the theory voicing
both agreement and reservation. Another young woman who worked in the shop,
Kawachi-san, joined the conversation. The conversation began to move in
directions I hadn't anticipated, and I brought out my notebook and began
scribbling. Both agreed with Takemiya that many women sometimes fantasized
about being men. Satoh-san also suggested that it was precisely because a
woman could never become a man that she was fascinated by the prospect. One
suggested that girls would prefer to see a boy they loved from a distance with
another boy than taken by another girl. It was an expression of a wish to
avoid adult reality. Soon the two women were discussing almost every
conceivable issue related to gender and sexuality, from menstruation to rape.
Both said they are turned off by manifestations of physical maturity in men,
such as body and facial hair. It's unfair that men don't have to endure the
biological burdens that women do. Women take pleasure in seeing men suffer
by being in a relationship that society refuses to accept. But both Satoh-san
and Kawachi-san expressed distaste at the idea of actual homosexuality,
particularly between women. I finally recalled that I had my tape recorder
in my bag and quickly turned it on, but it was too late. The conversation
died out, the women returned to work. I was left with a great deal to think
about. I was overwhelmed.
The anti-epiphany I experienced that day made me realize that search-for-the-
golden-key approach had been all wrong; that the phenomenon I was looking at
was one of enormous complexity that resisted easy formulations. There are
different reasons that different Japanese are attracted to sexual ambiguity
in shojo manga, yet there is at the same time undeniably some thing there.
Something in Tezuka's Ribon no kishi must have struck a chord in those girls
who would later become the nijuyon-nen gumi, something they took up in their
own work and developed in different directions, Hagio in hers, Takemiya in
hers, and other artists, such as Oshima Yumiko and Yamagishi Ryoko, in yet
different directions. The themes they developed have been taken up and
reinterpreted by a new generation of artists. And Japanese girls and
women--and a handful of men, as well--continue to respond.
At this point I feel that even if a hypothetical golden key were offered to
me, I might refuse it. I might refuse it for fear of dispelling whatever
magic there is that makes this medium so powerful and compelling to so many
shojo manga readers--myself amongst them.
*******************************End*******************************************
Steven E Barnes
A very interesting article. However, it skated around an issue
that's been bugging me for a while. Namely, the belief that
Shoujo manga are somehow unique, because they feature homosexual
relationships.
Now I'm just a manga fan; I haven't researched the area like Mr.
Thorn has...
Take a look at pornography in the US, which is oriented towards
men. Every porno movie I've seen has at least one lesbian scene
in it; none of them have had gay-male scenes. Conclusion: many
males are interested in lesbianism, but are disgusted / afraid
of male homosexuality (arm chair Freudians can analyze this at
their lesiure). This pattern seems to hold true for what Japanese
porn I've seen.
I believe that shoujo manga are just the flip side of this: many
women are interested in male homosexuality, but are repulsed by
lesbianism. In the US however, female oriented sexual material
doesn't seem to be very visible, so it is easy to conclude that
Japanese women are unique in this regard. However, I have two
data points here: In the SF world, I've read a few novels by
women, featuring main characters that are gay men (such authors,
being generally "feminist" are usually sympathetic towards
lesbians too). Another interesting phenomenon is in the area of
SF fan fiction. I've heard tales of infamous Kirk-Spock love
stories written by female fans, which is completely analgous to the
"Captain Tsubasa" genre described by Mr. Thorn.
In the area of "effiminate males", again, the same pattern holds
true in the US. Women seem to have great fascination for various
male pop stars who have an androgenous image (Prince, Michael
Jackson come to mind), whereas most men I know dismiss them as
being "gay." (this isn't to imply that these artists have no
male fans...)
So there you have my arm-chair analysis. I agree that Japanese
society is more open about sexuality, but I don't really consider
the traits of shoujo to be especially unique.
-steve
E. Kontei
>
> A very interesting article. However, it skated around an issue
> that's been bugging me for a while. Namely, the belief that
> Shoujo manga are somehow unique, because they feature homosexual
> relationships.
That's only part of the picture. The unique thing is that, just like the
idea of using animation as a general tool for storytelling, it's something
which has only succeeded in Japan, nowhere else.
Your point of it being the reverse of "hot two-girl action" which appeals
to some males is quite valid, IMO. Of course, it has more emphasis on
romance and relationships, and less on "mechanics". That could be attributed
to the different views on the subject by men and women, but I'm not
qualified to start theorizing on that...
Another data point. About a year ago, I remember a discussion of Japanese
animation in rec.arts.animation, where one of the points brought up was
said homosexual romances. Several females (at least, people with female
names in their .signatures) sent me e-mail asking me for more information.
So, as you said, the phenomenon may very well be universal, but only has
come to the surface in Japanese popular fiction.
> In the area of "effeminate males", again, the same pattern holds
> true in the US. Women seem to have great fascination for various
> male pop stars who have an androgenous image (Prince, Michael
> Jackson come to mind), whereas most men I know dismiss them as
> being "gay." (this isn't to imply that these artists have no
> male fans...)
Caereful! You and I call them "androgynous", women call them *sexy*.
(Especially true in the case of Prince, wherever he may be nowadays.)
No, I don't claim to understand why. Probably the same reason some
men think biker chicks are sexy. ^_^;;
The "manga shop" conversation. It reminds me of a semi-famous
one-liner: "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body!"
P.S.: Matt, if you're going to try and explain WHY this phenomenon is
happening, I can only wish you luck. You have your work cut out for
you...
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
"There is what's legal, there is what's right, and there is what we do."
co...@cbnewsl.att.com jes...@ihlpm.att.com
Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Iain Sinclair
>That's only part of the picture. The unique thing is that, just like the
>idea of using animation as a general tool for storytelling, it's something
>which has only succeeded in Japan, nowhere else.
I think it's the idea of using animation as a general means to make
money which has succeeded, or have you seen any anime for 50-year-olds
recently?
>Your point of it being the reverse of "hot two-girl action" which appeals
>to some males is quite valid, IMO. Of course, it has more emphasis on
>romance and relationships, and less on "mechanics".
Before this thread goes any further, it should be immediately pointed out
that shoujo manga is NOT synonymous with homosexual romance. The way
people are talking here, you'd think that it was. Such themes are
really not that prevalent, at least in what I've read, and manga for
male audiences is not without them, either. I believe the name
for the sub-genre of shoujo manga dealing with homosexual romance is
"yaoi". Could someone confirm this, and how is it spelled?
(Check comiket 42 catalog, p.323, 52-53 for a rather interesting
example..)
>P.S.: Matt, if you're going to try and explain WHY this phenomenon is
>happening, I can only wish you luck. You have your work cut out for
>you...
It's called "giving the audience what it wants", a principle that
drives the manga industry.
--
Iain S.
Peter Evans
>>
>> A very interesting article. However, it skated around an issue
>> that's been bugging me for a while. Namely, the belief that
>> Shoujo manga are somehow unique, because they feature homosexual
>> relationships.
>
Hey, I happen to like Shojo manga. While I wouldn't go so far as to
condemn sexuality in comics, I find it rather peculiar that one
very seldom sees and MALE GENITALIA in the manga. Or, for that matter,
in the pornography magazines.
( Try Jungle no Oja, Ta-Chan or Southern Country Ice Hockey if you
want to even stand a chance of seeing a penis.)
Why not? (I expect I'll disappear in a pillar of flame for this! Sigh)
There's nothing wrong with the male anatomy. Not that I know of anyway,
In such philosophical greats as Urotsukidoji + La Blue Girl, you see
plenty of tentacles up to suspicious things, why not a perfectly
ordinary male member? It's nowhere near as grotesque. Demons have at
least one for every orifice, so why should the hero of "Bastard!!"
have to go without? (No wonder he's _so_ angry!)
Peter
----*
Incidentally, I _do_ find the mindless sex/tentacles/porn manga
tasteless and boring. _I_am_not_ trying to promote such, I'm just
wondering why, when the story calls for nudity, do the men appear
to be without that which should be without!
Iain Sinclair
>There's nothing wrong with the male anatomy. Not that I know of anyway,
>In such philosophical greats as Urotsukidoji + La Blue Girl, you see
>plenty of tentacles up to suspicious things, why not a perfectly
>ordinary male member? It's nowhere near as grotesque. Demons have at
>least one for every orifice, so why should the hero of "Bastard!!"
>have to go without? (No wonder he's _so_ angry!)
D.S. is supposed to have slept with several hundred women, so he
must have something down there..
Contrary to popular belief, the restricted depiction of genitalia/pubic hair
in Japan stems from a mistranslation of a post-WWII American order that
"you shouldn't be able to see an adult's genitals", or words to that effect.
(sigh.. another thing desperately needing FAQ treatment.) There is also
not-inconsiderable pressure on the manga industry to be self-regulating,
in this respect.
>Incidentally, I _do_ find the mindless sex/tentacles/porn manga
>tasteless and boring.
Blame Hokusai's ukiyo-e. That's where it all started, sex/tentacles/porn
and all. (And it IS available outside Japan! Rush down to your local
art library today.)
--
Iain S.
E. Kontei
> In article <CI1ot...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> co...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei) writes:
> >That's only part of the picture. The unique thing is that, just like the
> >idea of using animation as a general tool for storytelling, it's something
> >which has only succeeded in Japan, nowhere else.
>
> I think it's the idea of using animation as a general means to make
> money which has succeeded, or have you seen any anime for 50-year-olds
> recently?
Roujin Z? ^_^;; But seriously, I think Japan is the only country today
where an animated feature aimed at 30-somethings could be a financial
success (I'm thinking of OMOHIDE POROPORO). But enough about anime...
> Before this thread goes any further, it should be immediately pointed
> out that shoujo manga is NOT synonymous with homosexual romance.
Of course, of course.
> >P.S.: Matt, if you're going to try and explain WHY this phenomenon is
> >happening, I can only wish you luck. You have your work cut out for
> >you...
>
> It's called "giving the audience what it wants", a principle that
> drives the manga industry.
It drives ALL entertainment industries. But why does the audience
seem to "want" this particular thing? That's the question.
Steven E Barnes
Well, I do recall a number of woodblocks featuring enormous
genetalia, but I must have missed the tentacles...
-steve
Michael Liu
In a previous article, co...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei) says:
>Roujin Z? ^_^;; But seriously, I think Japan is the only country today
>where an animated feature aimed at 30-somethings could be a financial
>success (I'm thinking of OMOHIDE POROPORO). But enough about anime...
I'm not sure if Omohide Poroporo is aimed at 30-somethings. I read a small
portion of the manga (which I suppose was based on the movie) that dealt
with elementary school kids' lunchtime, and it brought back memories for
me, who's barely 20-something. Then again, people go through more growing
up in developing countries. (I remembering laughing when I read
environmental advice in the papers about using newspaper to clean windoes.
In Taiwan, people would laugh if you didn't know that)
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Joseph Antolick
SEB> So there you have my arm-chair analysis. I agree that Japanese
SEB> society is more open about sexuality, but I don't really consider
SEB> the traits of shoujo to be especially unique.
...Well, every culture has some amount of similarity to another, in
some way, but the question in degree. From what I've seen in Japanese
culture, females are not so much attracted to it, as treating it as sort
of an anamoly <They sort of "Study" it>. Actually, this can be seen with
many facets of the culture <As opposed to Americans, Japanese don't visibly
"Get into" comics or stories: They get into it mentally, as if they're in
sync with the action.>.
But, I'm partial to Cyberpunk sort of things. I would hope,
normally,
that Viz does well with their comic line, but recent happenings <As you may
see in my other letter, in which I state why I personally dislike it from
what I've seen, and criticized Thorn for what I saw as a needless put-down
of
others beliefs.> have changed this.
... Outta my way, you fool!
E. Kontei
In article <CI3J0...@freenet.carleton.ca>, ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Liu) writes:
>
> I'm not sure if Omohide Poroporo is aimed at 30-somethings. I read a small
> portion of the manga (which I suppose was based on the movie)
The other way around. OPP (the manga) is a semiautobiographical story
by two female mangaka (names?), detailing the experiences of one Taeko
Okajima, Tokyo native and 5th grade student in 1966. I had the fortune
of mooching these off a friend who bought them. Pretty good reads...
OPP (the movie) takes some of the stories from the manga, and creates
a connecting story of a 27-year-old Taeko in 1982, as she remembers
those days. ALL the "young Taeko" stories are from the manga.
One of the strenghts of the OPP manga is that the "incidents" have an
appeal which is pretty much universal. But in the movie, there are
*many* cultural references which you'll only get if you were in Japan
in 1966 and/or 1982 (or have the Art Of Only Yesterday book describe said
references you ^_^;;). That's why I say the movie is geared towards
30-somethings.
> Get the script for the movie from venice.mps.ohio-state.edu, it's
> riddled with liner notes describing all sorts of stuff.
A teaser:
[1982 Taeko is talking to her older sister Nanako on the phone. Her
window is open, and some music drifts in from one of the neighboring
apartments.]
{The music that can be heard in the background here is
"Raideen" by Yellow Magic Orchestra from their hit
"Technopolice" single (notice both are anime show titles...).
[...]
(Yes, OMOHIDE POROPORO is my favorite anime.
You have a problem with that? ^_^)
Mayeen Alam
comic book, and wanted an illustrator. The story (as of yet anyway) does
not involve homosexuality in any way... And it's also of the type of shoujo
where I want cute animals, flowers, etc. but the males don't have to look
like females... Just very cute.
If you are an artist, and would like to find out more, contact me (auto
respond or send e-mail to: tige...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu).
I already am writing a comic book with another illustrator so I know how
to write comic books very well.
If you want to see a sample of my writing, check out the Cyberpulp story
in Rec.arts.anime.stories: It's not the shoujo genre, but at least you will
know if I'm worth drawing for.
I want to hear from you people!!
Anyway, what I was responding to:
In article <75600216...@animece.oau.org> Joseph.Antolick%f137.n...@animece.oau.org (Joseph Antolick) writes:
>
> SEB> So there you have my arm-chair analysis. I agree that Japanese
> SEB> society is more open about sexuality, but I don't really consider
> SEB> the traits of shoujo to be especially unique.
>
> ...Well, every culture has some amount of similarity to another, in
> some way, but the question in degree. From what I've seen in Japanese
> culture, females are not so much attracted to it, as treating it as sort
> of an anamoly <They sort of "Study" it>. Actually, this can be seen with
> many facets of the culture <As opposed to Americans, Japanese don't visibly
> "Get into" comics or stories: They get into it mentally, as if they're in
> sync with the action.>.
I'm not so sure that they don't get into it... It's just, as far as I've
seen, that they are more comfortable with getting into it. In America
individualism is highly valued, and fads are treated with disdain. In
Japan, even the trendiest (coolest) people seem to be into fads.
Sex in comics are sorta' just there. They are integral, like fads seem to
become to pop culture. The people aren't particularily demanding
for it (at least the Japanese students I talked to about it), and they are
downright embarrassed about it in America, but they still enjoy it and
won't buy stories that don't have some aspect of it. It's something that
makes a manga a manga.
Anyway... This is sorta' an arm chair analysis anyway... I'm only basing it
on the small sample of people I know...
> But, I'm partial to Cyberpunk sort of things. I would hope,
>normally,
> that Viz does well with their comic line, but recent happenings <As you may
> see in my other letter, in which I state why I personally dislike it from
> what I've seen, and criticized Thorn for what I saw as a needless put-down
>of
> others beliefs.> have changed this.
VIZ has what I see as too sensitive reactive armor... You could strip the
armor of their tanks by shooting feathers. They expect to be presenting
their line to an unappreciative audience and so they're gearing to knock
down the walls. The slightest opposition kinda' results in a blitzkreig
from them... A real turn off.
I just regard them as a tiny otaku organization now anyway... That's what
they behave like, so it's easier to forgive their trespasses when you see them
this way.
I'm into cyberpunk, but I'm really looking forward to a shoujo manga invasion
You can bet I'll be one of the first to line up to buy shoujo mangas!
-Shuvo
Steven E Barnes
> I just regard them [VIZ] as a tiny otaku organization now anyway... That's what
>they behave like, so it's easier to forgive their trespasses when you see them
>this way.
I think VIZ is just the opposite. They don't have enough otaku in
high places, hence the various decisions that have pissed off US fans
(coloring, "Adapting" the dialogue and story, dubbing videos...)
I think Studio Proteus and AnimEigo have a much higher otaku content...
-steve
E. Kontei
> high places, hence the various decisions that have pissed off US fans
> (coloring, "Adapting" the dialogue and story, dubbing videos...)
Well, that's because the fans in Viz had to enter from the ground up.
Trish, Matt, Toshi, and others.
The writers like Gerard Jones and Len Wein they hired from elsewhere.
Of course, the hired help didn't care about the material, and it shows.
W2/JH1CUV
> for the sub-genre of shoujo manga dealing with homosexual romance is
> "yaoi". Could someone confirm this, and how is it spelled?
It is said that yaoi (written in hiragana) stands for "yama-nashi,
ochi-nashi, imi-nashi" [no climax, no result, no meaning]. Although
this genre did already exist more than ten years ago, when such
magazines as June and Allan were started, it is thought that C-Tsuba
is the one that made the yaoi genre predominant in Comiket.
Yaoi style has already begun to be outdated in the doujinshi field,
according to the article by the chairman of Comiket. On the other
hand, several monthly or bimonthly anthologies have been in print
commercially since last year or so, by the publishers that can't sell
loli/H manga under the pressure.
It seems that the path of yaoi growth is exactly the same as that of
lolicom thing: from doujinshi to anthologies and magazines. I'd
predict that shotacom/yaoi genre will take over the lady's comic
market, which currently employs the sick gekiga style, within ten
years or so.
-----
W2/JH1CUV
Mayeen Alam
>In article <2f0gv4$b...@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> ti...@syzygy.cs.jhu.edu (Mayeen Alam) writes:
>> I just regard them [VIZ] as a tiny otaku organization now anyway... That's what
>>they behave like, so it's easier to forgive their trespasses when you see them
>>this way.
>
>I think VIZ is just the opposite. They don't have enough otaku in
>high places, hence the various decisions that have pissed off US fans
>(coloring, "Adapting" the dialogue and story, dubbing videos...)
hrmm.. actually, I shouldn't have siad otaku... I wanted to make it
sound like a small company puttering around.
They really aren't that bad... They make some mistakes... Okay, a lot
of mistakes, but they aren't evil (like Streamline).
I just can't imagine them as a big corporation, just a bunch of
enthusiasts running a business in something they like.
Real businessmen are cautious, etc., but they don't make thses kinds
of mistakes (I'm not kidding, they either have or don't move until they
get, enough resources to accurately judge the market).
Viz is just happy to bring an "alternative" list to the market, not
get immensly rich by breaking new ground ^_^
You can see all the ambitious businesses going crazy trying to please
everybody. Viz is more insistant that they are in the right... Something
you see a lot in otaku organizations. They are proud of their translations
where a business would be going: "Is it really okay? You like it? Maybe we
should be changing this...."
>I think Studio Proteus and AnimEigo have a much higher otaku content...
Well, Viz does have it's otaku content though... I don't think they
would be doing this unless they thought anime and manga is some kind
of hot stuff...
You are right, but I prefer to judge Viz this way...
I wish it had some good management, and a good research and public
relations component. Trish et. al. are really good. I think she has
really moved it forward from where it was, but I wish Viz had more
people like her...
-Shuvo
Matthew Allen Thorn
>Yaoi style has already begun to be outdated in the doujinshi field,
>according to the article by the chairman of Comiket. On the other
>hand, several monthly or bimonthly anthologies have been in print
>commercially since last year or so, by the publishers that can't sell
>loli/H manga under the pressure.
>
>It seems that the path of yaoi growth is exactly the same as that of
>lolicom thing: from doujinshi to anthologies and magazines. I'd
>predict that shotacom/yaoi genre will take over the lady's comic
>market, which currently employs the sick gekiga style, within ten
>years or so.
Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean. Gay-themed, *commercial* shojo manga
(e.g., Keiko TAKEMIYA's _Kaze to Ki no Uta_) existed long before the
amateur "yoai/Captain Tsubasa" phenomenon, I my guess is they will
continue to be a popular shojo manga genre for many years to come. What
are the "yaoi" anthologies you refer to? It's hard for me to imagine that
gay-themed manga will ever be popular in the "ladies' comic" genre, which
tends to be conservative in their portrayal of male/female relationships
(though they are more sexually explicit--sometimes pornographic--than
shojo manga). I would never have characterized the ladies's comic style
as "gekiga." It just looks like shojo manga looked fifteen years ago.
One shojo manga artist I interviewed said that ladies' comics was the
"graveyard of shojo manga artists." That is, once popular shojo manga
artists who failed to maintain their popularity in that genre (such as
Riyoko IKEDA) have ended up doing crap for ladies' comics.
Matt Thorn, mt...@columbia.edu
Matthew Allen Thorn
> ...Well, every culture has some amount of similarity to another, in
> some way, but the question in degree. From what I've seen in Japanese
> culture, females are not so much attracted to it, as treating it as sort
> of an anamoly <They sort of "Study" it>. Actually, this can be seen with
> many facets of the culture <As opposed to Americans, Japanese don't visibly
> "Get into" comics or stories: They get into it mentally, as if they're in
> sync with the action.>.
I don't know what you base your impression on, but I would say it's just
plain wrong. Almost invariably, the female fans of gay-themed shojo manga
are passionately interested in and deeply moved by them. I have no idea
what you mean by Japanese not "visibly" getting into manga, or what you
mean by the getting into it "mentally, as if they're in synch with the
action." It's hard for me to fathom how manga could come to occupy a
nearly a third of all publications in Japan if the Japanese weren't pretty
"into' them.
>I would hope, normally, that Viz does well with their comic line, but recent
>happenings <As you may see in my other letter, in which I state why I
>personally dislike it from what I've seen, and criticized Thorn for what I
>saw as a needless put-down >of others beliefs.> have changed this.
I don't recall seeing the post you mention. I also don't recall ever
being responsible for "a needless put-down of others beliefs" in the pages
of _Animerica_. Could you refesh my memory?
Matt Thorn, mt...@columbia.edu
Matthew Allen Thorn
>Matt, if you're going to try and explain WHY this phenomenon is
>happening, I can only wish you luck. You have your work cut out for
>you...
As I tried to say at the end of my paper (though maybe I wasn'r explicit
enough) I have given up on the "why," which is probably unanswerable, and
am focusing on the "in what way" and "to what ends."
Thanks for your interest.
Matt Thorn, mt...@columbia.edu
Matthew Allen Thorn
Steven E Barnes, Dec 14:
"Unique" is one of those dangerous words you would think I would have
learned to avoid by now. Let me only say that I have never encountered
another phenomenon quite like this in terms of content and scale. There
are some interesting (and some obvious) parallels between "girl-on-girl"
porn for men and bishounen/yaoi/shounen ai manga for women/girls. But
there are also obvious and profound differences. As another respondent
pointed out, male-oriented porn strips women of individual identity and
emphasizes explicit sex, whereas female-oriented manga emphasize character
and relationships. I don think, though, that there is a voyeuristic
element in shojo manga, too: it provides a glimpse (based on fantasy
rather than reality) into situations in which boys/men are (supposedly)
being themselves. The amateur (doujinshi) manga are sometimes pretty hot
and heavy, but even these wouldn't even count as porno by male-oriented
porno standards.
The underground Star Trek fan-produced stories you mention are strikingly
similar to the shounen ai manga I'm interested in, and a handful of
scholars (i.e., Constance Penley, a cinema studies scholar) have written
on them. They differ, however, in one important respect: scale. The
fanzine community that produces and reads these "slash" stories (so named
because of the slash in the genre names: Kirk/Spock, Starsky/Hutch, etc.)
consists of no more than a few hundred women, maybe a thousand or so. In
Japan this is a mass culture phenomenon, affecting a huge percentage of
the female population, from Baby Boomers on down.
> In the area of "effiminate males", again, the same pattern holds
> true in the US. Women seem to have great fascination for various
> male pop stars who have an androgenous image (Prince, Michael
> Jackson come to mind), whereas most men I know dismiss them as
> being "gay." (this isn't to imply that these artists have no
> male fans...)
Here I disagree. Although some women (or many women in certain instances)
find effeminate men/boys attractive, most women seem to be more turned on
by beefcake types, like that guy--I think his name's Fabio--who models for
romance novel covers. Very few Japanese women (in my experience) are
attracted to big, macho men. But these are questions best answered by the
women (American and Japanese) who participate in this forum.
Matt Thorn, mt...@columbia.edu
Matthew Allen Thorn
>Before this thread goes any further, it should be immediately pointed out
>that shoujo manga is NOT synonymous with homosexual romance. The way
>people are talking here, you'd think that it was. Such themes are
>really not that prevalent, at least in what I've read, and manga for
>male audiences is not without them, either. I believe the name
>for the sub-genre of shoujo manga dealing with homosexual romance is
>"yaoi". Could someone confirm this, and how is it spelled?
You're right that shojo manga is not synonymous with homosexual romance,
which I pointed out in my paper. "Prevalent," however, is a relative
thing. I think it's pretty darn prevalent, considering that, at least
until AIDS, it has been all but absent from popular American media. It
also depends what level of the shojo manga market you're talking about.
Go to any major comic market (where amateur artists sell their manga) and
you'll find that this is far and away the largest single genre, not just
of shojo manga but shonen and other manga, too. As for homosexuality in
male-oriented manga, in my experience it has appeared almost exclusively
for comic effect, or to "gross out" the reader. I'm hard pressed to think
of an exception.... As for "yaoi," this is the name given to much of the
amateur manga commonly categorized as "Captain Tsubasa"--that i, spin-offs
of popular commercial manga in which leading males are portrayed as
lovers. The name is something of an acronym for "yama nashi (no peak/climax),
ochi nashi (no point/punchline), imi nashi (no meaning)." Homosexual
themes in shojo manga--including commercial shojo manga--predates "yaoi"
by more than a decade. It was originally known as either "shounen ai"
(boys' love) or "bishounen" (beautiful boys) manga.
Matt Thorn, mt...@columbia.edu