Japanese Comics? No, surely NOT comics...
Francis A Uy
>Anyone loves Japanese comics? I mean comics from Japan, not just with
I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
Yes, I'm still bitter about the rec.arts.manga vote after
all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
Ah well. I love Ranma 1/2, Battle Angel, and several others.
-F
.
Hiroyuki Hironaga
Manga means comics. go learn some Japanese.
Japanese comic books are VERY diffrent from US comic book style,
and yes, many consider it to superior (wether it is or not isn't
an argument here). however it's STUPID do declare it anything
other than comic books.
You have biased definition on "comic books". Don't think US
comic books are what a "comic books" are. There are all forms
in the media.
Sorry, but you have no right to write a faq.. it'll all be
distored.
Hiro^2
--
Hiroyuki Hironaga (広永博之) of University of Texas at Austin
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~susanooh/home.html (anime/manga homepage)
susa...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu / Okonomi Studio's Translator
Arslan in IRC / Mustard Boy / "hen, hen, miiinnna hen!" /
Enrique Conty
Hiroyuki Hironaga <susa...@dewey.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) wrote:
>: Mr Wan San Tam <ws...@hk.super.net> wrote:
>: >Anyone loves Japanese comics? I mean comics from Japan, not just with
>
>: I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
>: established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
>
Actually, Francis is referring to the infamous r.a.m. split argument, in
which a group of people tried to convince the news.groups newsgroup that
manga are not comics, thus a newsgroup for manga should not be under the
rec.arts.comics hierarchy. Iain Sinclair was in the "manga are not comics"
camp, and Francis (and myself) were in the "manga are comics" camp. To this
day, Sinclair views me as some sort of evil being who's trying to destroy the
rec.arts.manga newsgroup. To this day, I haven't seen a convincing argument
that manga are not comics.
There is more to it, but I don't want to open old wounds any more than I
have to.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty/
Looking for Heavy Metal July 1983 issue. Top dollar offered.
bb3...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
: established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
: Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
: lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
*================================================*
What is with the needless flames? The original post obviously shows the
guy likes manga- maybe he just doesn't know the English translation of
the Asian word. It should be the group's responsibility to welcome
newbies to the flock, not burn them and chase them out.
Save the flames for those who make unsubstanciated claims that comics are
better than manga.
-Mike L.
Francis A Uy
>Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) on 8 May 1995 wrote:
>: established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
>: Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
>: lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
>Manga means "comics" in Japanese. And there are plenty of great
Not according to the official charter of rec.arts.manga
Short apology: I was being exceedingly sarcastic in my first
post. Many people who weren't here way back didn't get it.
If "manga" is a term for Japanese comics (hence a subset of
the worldwide medium referred to on Usenet as comics), then
the proper group name would be rec.arts.comics.manga
>: Yes, I'm still bitter about the rec.arts.manga vote after
>: all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
>About what?
About this very thing. About the cold hard fact that according
to Usenet, manga are not comics, and comics are crap.
Manga Is Superior to Comics FAQ
v0.1 May 9, 1995
by Francis Uy (fu...@umbc.edu)
Several years ago, an RFD was posted for a Manga group.
[note: if you don't know what an RFD is, please ask me
for a copy of the Usenet Group Creation Guidelines.]
At least two of the proponents were named Iain. One of them,
Iain G Main, I remember with great fondness. NOT. I'll
refer to the manga group proponents collectively as "Iain".
The Manga RFD asked for a group called rec.arts.manga, with
the proposed topic of "Japanese Comics". It was quickly
pointed out that a group about comics should go in the
pre-existing rec.arts.comics.* hierarchy.
At this point, Iain became extremely agressive, attacking the
concept of "comics". Iain said:
comics refers ONLY to USA-style comics.
comics are ALL total crap compared to manga.
rec.arts.comics.manga "clearly" would be ONLY for English
(or other inferior language) translations of "real" manga.
and so on.
We quickly rebutted Iain's points with examples from
Europe, South America, and even a few good ones from
North America. And several heaps of clue and logic.
Iain responded by re-writing the charter for rec.arts.manga,
so it would make NO reference to the word "comics", except
possibly that manga aren't comics, and comics are crap.
This revised charter was so all-inclusive that anime, San Rio
toys pens & supplies, cutesy characters on billboards or
cigarette packages, etc, anything with a Japanese art style,
it is all just a part of the huge medium that is "manga".
We noted that this definition was nonsense. Iain ignored us.
rec.arts.manga, with the revised charter, went to a CFV.
[note: again, if you don't know about CFVs, mail to me.]
The CFV was posted to all the usual rec.arts.* groups,
plus most of the soc.culture.* groups in east Asia, plus
any group with a pro-Japanese slant.
Iain campaigned vigorously. I can scarcely imagine the
amount of bandwidth Iain used on the trans-Pacific links.
In the end, Iain prevailed, and manga was thus defined
according to his charter.
So now you know. The next time someone wants to talk about
"Japanese Comics", you be sure to tell them how foolish
they are. Manga are not comics, and comics are crap.
-F
.
Mark Bruyneel
>
> I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
> Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
> lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
>
> all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
>
>
> ..
Excuse me? What's in a name; Japanese comics and manga are to me the
same thing and have nothing to do with comics or comic books from
other countries.
Mark.
mo...@mit.edu
American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Ken Arromdee
> the proposed topic of "Japanese Comics". It was quickly
> pointed out that a group about comics should go in the
> pre-existing rec.arts.comics.* hierarchy.
It so happens that manga doesn't _necessarily_ mean comics. It _can_ refer
to anime and such, although that definition is not a common one.
Note that:
-- Claiming that a manga group should be a subset of rec.arts.comics because
of a definition of manga as comics implies that the literal definition of
manga should be used for group naming, even though in practice manga
is discussed separately from comics. Literal definitions take precedence
over usage in practice.
-- Claiming that the broader definition of 'manga' should not be used, because
in practice people don't want to discuss anime, gum wrappers, woodcuts, or
video games together with Shonen Jump, says that usage in practice takes
precedence over literal definitions.
It is not surprising that people who tried to assert both of these at the
same time were not believed.
Incidentally, did you know that 'sf' in the sf groups does not mean science
fiction? And that rec.arts.comics.xbooks is not a subgroup of the Marvel
Universe group, even though "X-books _are_ in the Marvel Universe"?
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
"This isn't some Deep Space franchise." --Ivanova
zombie
susa...@dewey.cc.utexas.edu (Hiroyuki Hironaga) wrote:
> Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) wrote:
> : Mr Wan San Tam <ws...@hk.super.net> wrote:
>
> : >Anyone loves Japanese comics? I mean comics from Japan, not just with
>
> : I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
> : established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
> : Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
> : lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
>
> : Yes, I'm still bitter about the rec.arts.manga vote after
> : all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
> : Ah well. I love Ranma 1/2, Battle Angel, and several others.
>
> Manga means comics. go learn some Japanese.
That's what he said, sarcasticly.
> Japanese comic books are VERY diffrent from US comic book style,
> and yes, many consider it to superior (wether it is or not isn't
> an argument here). however it's STUPID do declare it anything
> other than comic books.
Yes, that is what was implied.
> You have biased definition on "comic books". Don't think US
> comic books are what a "comic books" are. There are all forms
> in the media.
Yes, and therefore belong in the "comic books" heirarchy, r.a.comics.*
> Sorry, but you have no right to write a faq.. it'll all be
> distored.
Say what? This is usenet. You don't need a "right" as long as it is on topic.
zombie
--
# Lois & Clark -----: http://www.creacon.com/LNC/index.html ------ #
# The Mutant Page --: http://www.santarosa.edu/~sthoemke/x.html -- #
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Eric T. Cheng
>Anyone loves Japanese comics? I mean comics from Japan, not just with
Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) on 8 May 1995 wrote in response:
: I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
: established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
: Japan makes "manga", which have nothing to do with such
: lowbrow inferior garbage as comics.
Manga means "comics" in Japanese. And there are plenty of great
non-manga/comics titles out there in N.America and Europe (and no,
they're not the superhero crap...).
I prefer the term, as coined by my prof, Dr.Philip Fry, "graphic
narrative". Art Eisner coined the term "sequential art". Comics/manga/
graphic narrative/sequential art is an art form...and it can either be a
masterpiece or a piece of shit.
: Yes, I'm still bitter about the rec.arts.manga vote after
: all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
About what?
: Ah well. I love Ranma 1/2, Battle Angel, and several others.
_Battle Angel_? You mean _Gunnm_.
--
Eric "graphic narrative" Cheng
UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
e...@capitalnet.com
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
Eric T. Cheng
>Anyone loves Japanese comics? I mean comics from Japan, not just with
Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) wrote in response:
: I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It was
: established years ago that Japan doesn't make "comics".
Enrique Conty (co...@MCS.COM) on 8 May 1995 wrote:
: Actually, Francis is referring to the infamous r.a.m. split argument, in
: which a group of people tried to convince the news.groups newsgroup that
: manga are not comics, thus a newsgroup for manga should not be under the
: rec.arts.comics hierarchy. Iain Sinclair was in the "manga are not comics"
: camp, and Francis (and myself) were in the "manga are comics" camp. To this
Well, from what was posted by Francis it didn't seem like it appeared
that he's still in the "manga are comics" camp.
: day, Sinclair views me as some sort of evil being who's trying to destroy the
: rec.arts.manga newsgroup. To this day, I haven't seen a convincing argument
: that manga are not comics.
Hmm...smells like comics, tastes like comics, feels like comics, reads
like comics... Just because the N.American superhero genre :P give
N.American comics a bad name it doesn't mean ALL N.American comics are
crap (most but not all!). Please do some research on the history of
N.American comics and all the censorship (state and self imposed) the
industry indured (and the alternative comics which was born from the
witch hunts).
: There is more to it, but I don't want to open old wounds any more than I
: have to.
Just throw some salt. ;)
--
Eric "pus" Cheng
Eric T. Cheng
: Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Generalization.
: American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
Generalization. Any title by Rob Liefeld and his lackeys is not great
artwork... have you ever seen the artwork in _Akira_, _Appleseed_,
_Orion_, _Crying Freeman_, just to name a few of the great artwork mangas?
But N.American and Japanese comics have 90% crap (writing and artwork),
don't start generalizing an entire medium 'cause of the crap that's out
there...
: don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Although manga is Japanese comics, it is different from N.American
comics, as much as N.American comics are different from European comics.
It's the cultural influence on the narrative/story telling aspect --
N.American comics tend to be more action oriented and more wordier than
their Japanese counterparts. Please pick up _Understanding Comics_ by
Scott McCloud for a more detailed difference in the two different types
of comics.
--
Eric "Bach. of Fine Arts" Cheng
Eric T. Cheng
: Not according to the official charter of rec.arts.manga
Well, the official charter of r.a.m is not the be all and end all to the
definition of comics. It's only a guide for the Net and not the real
world.
: Short apology: I was being exceedingly sarcastic in my first
: post. Many people who weren't here way back didn't get it.
Accepted.
: If "manga" is a term for Japanese comics (hence a subset of
: the worldwide medium referred to on Usenet as comics), then
: the proper group name would be rec.arts.comics.manga
As would anime would be under rec.arts.animation.anime then...
: About this very thing. About the cold hard fact that according
: to Usenet, manga are not comics, and comics are crap.
But we're not talking about the Usenet defintion but the real world
defintion of manga...manga is comics. N.American comics is different
from Japanese comics as both are different from European comics. All of
them are "graphic narratives" (Dr.Philip Fry) and "sequential art" (Walt
"The Spirit" Eisner). All of them use frames to give the allusion of the
passage of time and space in a narrative. The method to the end may be
different -- American comics tend to be more action oriented while
Japanese comics are more "mellow" -- but they are still comics. If you
haven't already, please read Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_,
which goes into great depth the differences in American and Japanese
comics.
BTW, why are you clumping ALL N.American comics into one area? Not all
N.American comics are of the superhero genre -- there are actually titles
which deal with other genres. Check out _Cerebus_, _The Rocketeer_,
_Sandman_, _Bone_, _Elfquest_, _Give Me Liberty_ to name a few of better
N.American titles out there. There are also the alternative/underground
titles which often deals with taboo topics/issues (ie. sex, drugs,
homosexuality). N.American comics is more than superheroes (albeit the
superhero genre glut about 80% of the market...:().
: comics refers ONLY to USA-style comics.
: comics are ALL total crap compared to manga.
Read above to clear your ignorance. Generalization leads to fear which
leads to hatred which leads to destruction. I've been personally
discriminated 'cause people generalize about orientals or artists...
: rec.arts.comics.manga "clearly" would be ONLY for English
: (or other inferior language) translations of "real" manga.
: and so on.
But we're not dealing with the Usenet news defintion of manga, but rather
the real world definition.
: So now you know. The next time someone wants to talk about
: "Japanese Comics", you be sure to tell them how foolish
: they are. Manga are not comics, and comics are crap.
You have a right to say what you want. But you're ignorant for being so
closed-minded for not seeing all of the N.American comics.
I rather call all "comics" graphic narratives... as an artist I've
tried for the past few years to justify the graphic narrative as a valid
visual arts art medium. I have done in the past a "comic" which bares no
resemblance to the N.American superhero genre but is considered fine art.
It was produced not for entertainment but as art.
--
Eric "ignorance is the fool's wisdom" Cheng
Stephen Lin
> Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
How many mangas have you seen?
>
>
> American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
If you think X-Men has quite great plot.... Consider Five Star
Stories(you may never have chance to read it in your life time...
*sigh*), which contained thousands years of history of 4 solar system,
with the details of all kingdoms on each planets. Of course, no chaotic
time travel or replay of history.
>
> don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
>
>
>
Manga are comics. That's right. But for some reasons, in U.S. manga
referred to the Japanese comics, or rather comics which are drawn under a
certain style of storytelling and drawing developed from Japan. I
believed the usage of the term "manga" is for clear the confusion since
U.S. people only knew Superhero comics. Unfortunately, most of the best
mangas had no chance to be in U.S., as somebody said, "Manga in U.S. are
all about girls with big guns because U.S. audience DEMANDED them."
Michael Liu
>
> Sinclair views me as some sort of evil being who's trying to destroy the
> rec.arts.manga newsgroup. To this day, I haven't seen a convincing argument
> that manga are not comics.
Let me help. ^_^
Manga does not mean comics, but the two words are used to refer to the same
thing. Similarly, anime and cartoon refer to the same thing.
Please direct all flame to Conty.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Ken Iwasa
>Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Well, you're entitled to your opinions...
>
>
>American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
>
>don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
>
But I think what you said right here is the reason I'm glad the manga
group is outside the RAC group framework. Organizationally, it may make
more sense to have called this group R.A.C.manga, but (at least I imagine)
there would be so much meaningless drivel about how manga are and aren't
comics, how much American comics do/don't suck, how much manga suck/don't
suck, etc... As well as (again maybe only in my imagination) an overwhelming
amount of messages that go something like "I read X-men, but who is Manga?"
Oh well, I might be wrong about the bit about manga are/aren't comics and
comics sucking/not sucking filling up space needlessly :).
Ken
Charles M Seaton
: Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
: American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
: don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Actually, I think the run-of-the-mill Japanese comic tends to be
loads better than it's American counterpart; mediocre manga tends to
have a level of drawing and storytelling ability that Iron Man or
Hagar the Horrible (to name two very typical American mediocrities)
lack.
And you only think all Manga look alike because you're an American -
meaning both that you don't have the backround to see the
differences between two manga artists (just as a Japanese reader
unfamiliar with Superhero comics might quite reasonably think that
Neal Adams and Art Adams draw more-or-less the same), and that
(most likely) you see only the incredibly narrow range of manga that
manages to be printed on this continent (i.e., Big Robots with guns,
Girls, and Girls with Big Robot Guns).
Yours,
--Ennead
Paul Siu
That explain the puzzling statement Iain made to me several years
ago that "comic people try to destroy rec.arts.manga".
No doubt, there are still netters out there forever scarred
by this war of taxonomy. But that event was a long time ago,
rec.arts.manga is here now, and is not likely to become
rec.comic.manga or rec.manga.cereal any time soon. Please
bury the hatchet, in your own head, or your opponent's.
I really don't want to see another 50 post about how
comic/manga is God, and comic/manga is garbage.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| / \ Little is known about Isaac Newton's older brother, |
| / 1000 kg \ who stumbled upon the concept of gravity long before |
| ___________ Isaac. |
| Aaaaah! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul Siu up...@mcs.drexel.edu |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Hiroyuki Hironaga
: In article <3om43j$8...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
: susa...@dewey.cc.utexas.edu (Hiroyuki Hironaga) wrote:
: > Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) wrote:
: > : Mr Wan San Tam <ws...@hk.super.net> wrote:
: > : Yes, I'm still bitter about the rec.arts.manga vote after
: > : all these years! Maybe I should write an FAQ...
: > : Ah well. I love Ranma 1/2, Battle Angel, and several others.
: >
: > Manga means comics. go learn some Japanese.
: That's what he said, sarcasticly.
Sorry, I didn't see the sarcasm he was making. I thought
he was serious (but after reading Conty's follow, I got it.)
: > Sorry, but you have no right to write a faq.. it'll all be
: > distored.
: Say what? This is usenet. You don't need a "right" as long as it is on topic.
I shouldn't have said "rights". I should have said "_please_ don't
write a faq, since you don't know what you're talking about". that
way, it won't infringe in usenet netiquett ;)
zombie
Arromdee) wrote:
> -- Claiming that a manga group should be a subset of rec.arts.comics because
> of a definition of manga as comics implies that the literal definition of
> manga should be used for group naming, even though in practice manga
> is discussed separately from comics.
It is discussed separately because it was made a separate group.
> Incidentally, did you know that 'sf' in the sf groups does not mean science
> fiction? And that rec.arts.comics.xbooks is not a subgroup of the Marvel
> Universe group, even though "X-books _are_ in the Marvel Universe"?
Stop it. You know full well that the reorg is going to be done in two
waves. First was to make r.a.c.marvel.universe, second is to move
r.a.c.xbooks into r.a.c.m.xbooks. Now, my opposition to the r.a.c split
notwithstanding, you are acting as if we are OK twith his "hypocrisy" when
this was Part 2 in the reorg from the get go. First get r.a.c.m.u, then
move xbooks there.
Charles M Seaton
[Manga sucks, heh heh heh, from some idiot at MIT snipped.]
: But I think what you said right here is the reason I'm glad the
: manga group is outside the RAC group framework. Organizationally,
: it may make more sense to have called this group R.A.C.manga, but
: (at least I imagine) there would be so much meaningless drivel about
: how manga are and aren't comics, how much American comics do/don't
: suck, how much manga suck/don't suck, etc... As well as (again
: maybe only in my imagination) an overwhelming amount of messages
: that go something like "I read X-men, but who is Manga?"
Very much only in your imagination. But this does go to show that
it's not only rac* readers who can cast silly insults. =)
I've read ram, and I think it has no greater or smaller proportion of
idiots posting that rac.alternative or rac.strips.
: Oh well, I might be wrong about the bit about manga are/aren't comics
: and comics sucking/not sucking filling up space needlessly :).
I don't think it would have been a problem; rac.manga, if it
existed, would probably not get a lot of manga-ignorant readers
"crossing over" from racm, for the same reason rac.strips doesn't
get many readers who are ignorant of comic strips.
Rac* really isn't as bad as all that, honest. =)
In any case, done is done - ra.manga, for better or worse exists,
and until and unless RAM's readership decides they want to join the
rac* heirarchy (when hell freezes over, say) we should be polite
neighbors.
Want to borrow the lawn mower?
Yours,
--Ennead
Johanna Draper
Iain Sinclair <axo...@socs.uts.edu.au> wrote:
> Ah - treating the audience like idiots. Surely, idiots are the only
> people who will believe Uy's hilarious piece of nonsense.
Does sarcasm just not work on the net? I can't believe anyone took that
"FAQ" seriously.
Johanna
Markmeister
> mo...@mit.edu wrote:
> : Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
> : American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
: don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Hmmmmm.....sounds like this dude hasn't done much reading.....since when is Rob
Liefield or Todd McFarlane better than Katsuhiro Otomo or Yukinobu Hoshino?
> Actually, I think the run-of-the-mill Japanese comic tends to be
> loads better than it's American counterpart; mediocre manga tends to
> have a level of drawing and storytelling ability that Iron Man or
> Hagar the Horrible (to name two very typical American mediocrities)
> lack.
Indeed. Even a manga like FIST OF THE NORTH STAR is better than the usual
X-Men or Image book. And some of the better manga, like 2001 NIGHTS, stand
head and shoulders above even the best that the US has to offer. There is a
certain realism in manga that goes above the typical steroid-heroes/Image
special guns seen in some of the "hot" comics of today.
> And you only think all Manga look alike because you're an American -
> meaning both that you don't have the backround to see the
> (most likely) you see only the incredibly narrow range of manga that
> manages to be printed on this continent (i.e., Big Robots with guns,
> Girls, and Girls with Big Robot Guns).
True. However, there have been a diverse range of manga translated for the
States, namely AREA 88, MAISON IKKUKO, SANCTUARY, and GUNSMITH CATS. These
comics are not superhero comics, but are better than many superhero comics out
there. Even some "girls with big guns" manga like Shirow's APPLESEED or GHOST
IN THE SHELL are excellent. Manga are often fresh, original, and full of the
variety that used to exist in US comics (and the variety that is only starting
to appear again). That's why I buy 'em. Of course, some folks won't like
them, but, then again, that's their choice.
M. Mckenzie
St. Peter's College
Stephen Lin
In fact, the gun is not really as BIG as many very big comics gun which
can only shoot a pity small laser from its incredible size. IMO, I think
Appleseed characters fight more with skill than only use their ordinary
strength like most Marvel men do.
Otherwise, Appleseed's big gun is belonged to Brios(Cyber) or Dona's suit.
I strongly agreee to other points.
Stephen Lin
Todd VerBeek, GWM
>Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
>
>
>American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
>
>don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
...comics which you, evidently, know next to nothing about. <smile>
Cheers, Todd
Yin and Yang. Chaos and Order. Emotion and Logic. Smooth and Crunchy.
Alexander Wong
It's a redundant name, but some creatures need to know who they are.
: > Manga means comics. go learn some Japanese.
: That's what he said, sarcasticly.
Well, they mean the same "type" of material in two completely different
languages, and? You are implying that the English term is superior then
the Japanese term, that's why the "narrative arts" from Japan should be
called using the English term "comics"? And the newsgroup of the Japanese
arts should be called under the English term? How racist, they taught
those to you in school?
: Yes, and therefore belong in the "comic books" heirarchy, r.a.comics.*
Did your haka got hakaishimashita? That's why you are wandering around
vomiting junk? I guess shitai can get pretty racist too. Maybe you should
go back to your haka and rest in peace?
: Say what? This is usenet. You don't need a "right" as long as it is on
: topic.
Usenet is a place for beings like you who doesn't know anything to make
completely irrevelent comments on irrevelent newsgroups.
: zombie
"Kusattashitai ittai ga arawaremashita!"
--Alekusiel, "Hakai Tenshi"
http://www.tufts.edu/~awong
Alexander Wong
Did the Yasukuni Shrine of Usenet got destoryed or something? So many
shitai walking around in board daylight these days.
: Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
How interesting, maybe you can give some examples rather then making
comments out from nowhere? Maybe you can show us that you can write
something with supportive argument, after all those lab reports that you
have wrote in school?
I see, you must be one of those work at N.E.Comics down in Stratton? Or
you are one of those course six people who doesn't do anything besides
sitting in front of Athena 24 hours a day, posting to every single
newsgroup in the Usenet.
: American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
Which specific titles have you read? Which specific titles are you
comparing with? Please be more clear. ( That is, if you can, because
obviously you haven't read any. )
: don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Two words that means the same "type" of material in two different
languages doesn't give a equal sign between them, what you are saying is
being racist that the English word description is superior then the
Japanese word description. But hey, this is something expected from some
specific population of ignorant Americans.
Ron Asbestos Dippold
comics, or vice versa, and given the examples of excellent work and total
drek in both, and wide range of subjects, any such argument is going to drag
on forever without accomplishing anything. Try arguing that they're not the
same without bringing in some sort of qualty snobbery.
--
Bit: A word used to describe computers, as in "Our son's computer
cost quite a bit."
David Tonhofer
>Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
>American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
You forgot to put a certain word in the "keywords" line. Hope this helps.
>don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
agreed. so what.
-- David
Charles M Seaton
: > Actually, I think the run-of-the-mill Japanese comic tends to be
: > loads better than it's American counterpart; mediocre manga tends to
: > have a level of drawing and storytelling ability that Iron Man or
: > Hagar the Horrible (to name two very typical American mediocrities)
: > lack.
: Indeed. Even a manga like FIST OF THE NORTH STAR is better than
: the usual X-Men or Image book. And some of the better manga, like
: 2001 NIGHTS, stand head and shoulders above even the best that the
: US has to offer. [...]
Well... I wouldn't go that far. Does Pheonix really stand head and
shoulders above (for instance) Maus, Acme Novelty Library, Krazy Kat
or Jim? I'd have a hard time saying which is better...
The truth is, saying that any one countries 'best' is better than
another's is probably not something that any of us are qualified to
do, even if it was worth doing (which it's not). I certainly don't
know enough about Japanese comics to make such a comparison, and I
suspect that you don't know much about what I'd consider 'the best'
North American comics. (No flame intended.)
(Actually, this is what bothered me about _Manga, Manga_ - FS often
pointed out how wonderful manga was compared to how juvenile
American comics are; but, at least in _Manga, Manga_, his awareness
of American comics usually seemed limited to Marvel and DCs. "Manga
is much better than standard superhero fare" - talk about damning
with faint praise. =)
Yours,
--Ennead
Stainless Steel Rat
Alexander> I see, you must be one of those work at N.E.Comics down in
Alexander> Stratton?
Hey! That's not NEC, that's Newburry CDd^H^H^HComics. Don't confuse the
two.
Actually, Newburry in MIT's Student Center used to be a cool shop, then
the guy who pretty much ran it graduated a few years ago, and it sucks
now.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | head.
Krister Joas
Arromdee) writes:
> fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) wrote:
>> The Manga RFD asked for a group called rec.arts.manga, with the
>> proposed topic of "Japanese Comics". It was quickly pointed out
>> that a group about comics should go in the pre-existing
>> rec.arts.comics.* hierarchy.
> It so happens that manga doesn't _necessarily_ mean comics. It
> _can_ refer to anime and such, although that definition is not a
> common one.
Only in the UK. :-) People tend to get very upset because a certain
Brittish company calls anime manga (or even "masoka", when they don't
get the katakana right).
I think the problem with calling manga comics is in the word "comics"
itself. I don't think it covers the medium very well. I hesitate to
call "Maus" a "comic" and there are a lot of other American as well as
European comics for which the word "comic" is unsuitable, IMHO. The
same goes for many manga. Maybe the newsgroups should be grouped
under "rec.arts.sequential"? :-) The main reason I'm interested in
manga is *because* they are comics.
> -- Claiming that a manga group should be a subset of rec.arts.comics
> because of a definition of manga as comics implies that the literal
> definition of manga should be used for group naming, even though in
> practice manga is discussed separately from comics. Literal
> definitions take precedence over usage in practice.
This is perhaps pointless since the newsgroups already exists and
won't change easily but why does the practice of discussing manga
separately warrant its own hierarchy, separate from r.a.c? How much
discussion is there in r.a.m. that isn't related to manga being
defined as "comics"? There is the odd posting on anime that is
promptly pointed to r.a.a.
I wonder what they usually discuss in fj.rec.comics, American comics
perhaps?
--
Krister Joas <jo...@inf.ethz.ch>
zombie
> Manga sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
>
> American comics have better artwork (more diverse as well), and Plot.
>
> don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
Anyone else get the sneaking suspicion that this was a troll by a
pro-r.a.m. person? A great way to get the pro-r.a.m. to rally, and stir
up anti-r.a.c. sentiment...
zombie (only *half* serious)
Manfred Vogel
ENN...@deimos.oit.umass.edu (Charles M Seaton) writes:
>Very much only in your imagination. But this does go to show that
>and until and unless RAM's readership decides they want to join the
>rac* heirarchy (when hell freezes over, say) we should be polite
>neighbors.
>
>Want to borrow the lawn mower?
rec.arts.bildchenstreifengeschichten :-)
- Manfred Vogel
milkbaby
> Shitai mo...@mit.edu wrote:
> : don't go off saying crazy things against manga vs comics. manga are comics.
>
> Two words that means the same "type" of material in two different
> languages doesn't give a equal sign between them, what you are saying is
> being racist that the English word description is superior then the
> Japanese word description.
Uh... I don't think he said comics are superior to
manga -- that'd be indirect opposition to his point
that manga ARE comics. Maybe I'm missing the relevant
messages in the thread, but is there actually somebody
arguing *right now* that manga are not comics? Comics
is a very broad term that encompasses stuff from the
daily comic strips found in newspapers to the latest
comic books found on the shelf of your favorite bookstore.
I've seen the stuff folks read in Japan, Hong Kong,
and Taiwan in person, and those things look like comics
to me...
--m.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Send hate mail, love letters, and e-mail to: milk...@grove.ufl.edu
Michael Swiderek
: Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) on 9 May 1995 11:15:58 -0400 wrote:
: I rather call all "comics" graphic narratives... as an artist I've
: visual arts art medium. I have done in the past a "comic" which bares no
: resemblance to the N.American superhero genre but is considered fine art.
: It was produced not for entertainment but as art.
: --
: Eric "ignorance is the fool's wisdom" Cheng
: UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
: s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
: e...@capitalnet.com
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
This is just as ignorant as any that you've pointed out. I am depressed with
anyone who calls themselves a fine artist and contrasts that with anyone
else. It's simple pretention, and I admit I've partaken in it myself. At
one point, I declared myself above all comics, and went almost entirely into
"fine art", spending weeks or months on drawings -- this is not because I am
slow as an artist, either. These drawings simply meritted that amount of
time to portray all the intricacies. Suddenly, after a half a year of
stagnancy, I realized it was all bullshit (not the artwork; it is still the
work I am most proud of. Even at that pace, because I worked on several
at once, I have hundreds of my best drawings from that period). It's
useless to say that you have a grasp on the human experience and someone
else doesn't. I turned back to comics, because I needed to lighten up. I
actually made the mistake of taking myself seriously -- you, and many
others I fear have made the same mistake. Any artistic expression, let me
repeat and emphasize _ANY_ARTISTIC_EXPRESSION_ is a valid fine art form.
Even Image comics (my favorites). Even superhero Anime, like Bubblegum
Crisis. I end this by pointing out that you really only see alternative
fans putting down other comics. Funny, you seem to be so anti-establishment
(for lack of a better term), but some of you are awful damn elitist.
Disclaimer: If you read this letter and it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't.
MSG
"All lies and jest, still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards
the rest." - Simon and Garfunkel, "The Boxer"
ANTA...@news.delphi.com
While Francis' "FAQ" was undoubtedly biased, it *is* largely correct.
In any case, I've come to the conclusion that the years-old "rac.manga
vs. ra.manga war" is never going to end, and nothing is ever going
to be solved. It's best to quit arguing and just post informative
messages, and try to keep the noise part of the S/N ratio as low as
possible.
Best,
- mlh, who conducted the "rac.manga or ra.manga" straw poll ages ago.
Alexander Wong
: Uh... I don't think he said comics are superior to
: manga -- that'd be indirect opposition to his point
: that manga ARE comics. Maybe I'm missing the relevant
: messages in the thread, but is there actually somebody
: arguing *right now* that manga are not comics? Comics
: is a very broad term that encompasses stuff from the
: daily comic strips found in newspapers to the latest
: comic books found on the shelf of your favorite bookstore.
As I said in the last message, "manga" and "comics" are words for
"similar" things in Japanese and English. "Manga" and "comics" may be
"similar" to each other in a lot of ways, but they are different things.
Just like "cartoon" and "anime".
I guess in order to stop this endless thread, which had been rotten down
to name callings and completely pointless followups, is to have everyone
stop posting more followups. Discussion is absolutely useless here since
there is no way anyone can persuade each other here. ( But that is
something impossible, there are always "people" who wants to start more
flames. )
: I've seen the stuff folks read in Japan, Hong Kong,
: and Taiwan in person, and those things look like comics
: to me...
Those are "man wa". The reading of those two Chinese character in
Japanese is "manga".
Francis A Uy
>Well, they mean the same "type" of material in two completely different
>languages, and? You are implying that the English term is superior then
No, I'm NOT implying that. My reasoning is as follows:
1) Usenet (i.e. big 8 rec/soc/comp/etc) is predominantly
an English language forum. Group names, charters, et al,
are written in English. This is NOT intended to slight
other languages -- it just makes communication easier.
Not superior, just more widely recognized.
2) The English term for "sequential printed illustrations to
tell a story" is comics. The English term for "sequential
printed illustrations to tell a story, made in Japan, or
similar" is manga. manga also happens to be the Japanese
term for "sequential printed illustrations to tell a story".
3) If Japan had won WW2, and Usenet were a Kanji-based forum,
I would be advocating [rec].[arts].manga.misc (for manga) and
[rec].[arts].manga.gaijin (for other comics). The point is
that they are two parts of the same larger medium, and belong
in the same hierarchy.
-F
.
Eric T. Cheng
--
Eric "" Cheng
UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
e...@capitalnet.com
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/nene.html (Nene-chan Shrine homepage)
W2/JH1CUV
Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) wrote:
: I would be advocating [rec].[arts].manga.misc (for manga) and
: [rec].[arts].manga.gaijin (for other comics). The point is
rec.arts.manga.amecomi?
oh well...
^_^;
Mujo Tateno
: Good grief, respective quality has nothing to do with whether manga are
: comics, or vice versa, and given the examples of excellent work and total
: drek in both, and wide range of subjects, any such argument is going to drag
: on forever without accomplishing anything. Try arguing that they're not the
: same without bringing in some sort of qualty snobbery.
Ok... Manga has been around for almost a millenium, and comic about half
a century.
"Manga" was originally written by a budha priest in the 11th century. It was
a simple picture (though very large) with a cynical drawing of the human
society of that era. Budha's were draw as frogs, priests as chimpanzese. etc.
From there on, not many "historic" or significant manga appeared. Manga
rebirthed itself in the late 20th centuries of Japan and greatly inspired the
young readers. Manga in this day is read by all age groups, and the
category of the story, subject, case, etc the manga addresses is very
wide ranging. One can say manga is like a common book turned into pictures.
Comic... on the other hand seems souly to depend on "adventure". It
targets only the children and the mania's. It is a "specific" type of
book, and no more.
This is some of the facts and opinions I drew up.
If not enuff, just gimme a mail.
Regards,
Johnny.
Eric T. Cheng
: Eric T. Cheng (s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca) wrote:
: : Eric T. Cheng (s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca) wrote:
: : : Francis A Uy (fu...@umbc.edu) on 9 May 1995 11:15:58 -0400 wrote:
: : : I rather call all "comics" graphic narratives... as an artist I've
: : : tried for the past few years to justify the graphic narrative as a valid
: : : visual arts art medium. I have done in the past a "comic" which bares no
: : : resemblance to the N.American superhero genre but is considered fine art.
: Maybe I misunderstood you. I just got the impression that you were insulting
: superhero comics/ contrasting them with "fine art". I retract my arguement, if
: this is not what you mean.
: :
: > repeat and emphasize _ANY_ARTISTIC_EXPRESSION_ is a valid fine art form.
: : No this is not totally true. Not all films are fine art. The mainstream
: : movies we watch are entertainment, ie. _Jurassic Park_ is entertainment
: : while _Citizen Kane_ is "artsy". The same goes with other art mediums,
: : such as literature (I don't call romance novels great literature) and the
: : visual medium (I don't thing medical illustrations as fine art...).
: : The thing that makes any art a work of fine art is the intent of the
: : artist. Is this artwork created for the purpose of entertainment/pure
: : commercialism (ie. such as ad designs) or is the artwork created for art
: : itself? If you know your art history you'll know that Duchamp's
: : _Fountain_ helped questioned and redefine the definition of art (the
: : _Fountain_ was a found-object, a urinal_ hung upside-down (you can view a
: : replica of it at the National Gallery of Canada in Ottawa).
: Yes, but how do you know what the intent of the artist is? I don't know how
: Duchamp's readimades support your point, but they do support mine. He was
: questioned as being not an artist, because he took simple everyday objects
: rather than doing traditional "fine art". How can you say that someone
: did something with the intent of art? Whereas I don't care for Crichton,
: it is obvious that he intended to critique development in Jurrasic Park
: (did I get his name right? I don't tend to follow movies, but I have seen
: it.) Are superhero comics created for entertainment? Or is it a form
: of expressionism? Matisse, the shittiest artist that ever lived, but
: nevertheless considered a fine artist, painted for entertainment.
: : > Even Image comics (my favorites). Even superhero Anime, like Bubblegum
: : Image is hypocritical 'cause they were formed to go against the policies
: : of Marvel (such as more independance of the comic artist but only in turn
: : to hire "lackeys" who draw similiar/exactly like the founders).
: : Personally my favourite anime series is _Bubblegum Crisis_ (*plug* and
: : I'm presently working on a BGC dojinshi ;))
: a
: That's bullshit -- utter bullshit. The people who want to work at Image like
: Image's art, that's why they apply there. Also, they intend to teach so that
: these newbies can start their own titles. I myself am planning on applying
: to Image over the summer, yet I definately have my own style. Also, the
: nuances in Image are their. I can identify any of the good artists right off:
: Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri, J. Scott Campbell, Dale Keown, Sam Kieth (you can't
: tell me he draws like anyone else), etc. As to Bubblegum Crisis, well, at
: least we agree on _something_! :)
: : > Crisis. I end this by pointing out that you really only see alternative
: : > fans putting down other comics. Funny, you seem to be so anti-establishment
: : I don't read alternative/underground comics. I collect, read and enjoy
: : mainstream superhero titles -- and I have about 20 comic book boxes of
: : comics to prove it...@_@ I personally don't like Marvel nor Image comics
: : anymore and have dropped all their titles 'cause of their policies and
: : comics greats such as John Byrne and Petere David disagree with these
: : companies policies as well.
: :a
: You don't read them because of their policies? That's bullshit. That's like
: saying "I can't appreciate H.R.Giger, the best artist on the face of the earth,
: because he is an atheist." That's an excuse -- you must have something else
: against them. Yes, Byrne was a great, but he's had his day -- I far prefer
: his Captain America stuff to his new stuff. As to PAD, all I know about this
: guy is he's on the 'net. I've been into comics for probably over 10 years, and
: I read back issues, too (hey, this is a feat considering I'm only about
: 19), and I have no idea who he is. Then again, I don't pay attention to
: writers.
: I don't know about you but I also enjoy non-superhero comics as well,
: : such as _ElfQuest_, _Madman_, _Give Me Liberty_, _Sandman_, _Bone_,
: : _Heavy Metal_, and of course Japanese manga.
: Sorry, as I said, I got the wrong opinion about what you said. I think I
: still disagree with you, though. :)
: : > (for lack of a better term), but some of you are awful damn elitist.
: : I am not elitist, just educated. :P I can't stand elitists...I avoid showing
: : my works in a gallery space 'cause I find the gallery space elitist --
: : thus I try to do public works which are readily and easily available to
: : the public (this is why I argue to my profs that the graphic narrative is
: : a valid art medium).
: :
: Hey, I have nothing against galleries; when I get the chance to be exhibitted,
: I do take it, but I've primarily done posters. My point about elitism is
: that you are differentiating between fine art and "that stuff". That's
: elitist.
: I use the term "graphic narrative" not 'cause I'm PC (I don't like PC
: : either 'cause it forces a single thinking upon you) but it avoids the
: : stereotypical N.American definition of 'comics'. The N.American general
: : populace consider comics to be essentially consist of only the superhero
: : genre, thus a child/teenager's form of entertainment. How many people
: : have heard or read _Maus_?
: :
: Oooh! Ooh! I have! :) It was okay, but everyone seems to think anything
: to do with the holocaust is the balls! Schindler's List, Maus, etc. In fact,
: I probably would like it more if the holocaust wasn't puked into my ear
: every five seconds. I am not anti-semitic or anything like that. I think
: we need to be educated about what happened. I'm just sick of everyone
: restating it. I guess, I reject "alternative" comics for the same reason
: you seem to discredit mainstream comics. :) Which is kind of odd, come to
: think about it.a
: If you know your N.American comic history it was from the 1950s
: : government and self-imposed censorship of comics (mostly 'cause of the
: : popular horror genre) that the alternative/underground "comix" was created.
: : The early alternative/underground artist used the term "comix" the avoid
: : the association of the mainstream comics (dominated at the time by the
: : Western, horror and UFO comics (and yes superhereo comics were next to nil)).
: : I rather use the terms "graphic narrative" (as coined by my prof, Dr.
: : Philip Fry) and "sequential art" (as coined by Wil "The Spirit" Eisner)
: : 'cause they too avoid the stereotypical N.American definition of comics.
: : (I dislike it when people refer them as "cartoons" or call me a "cartoonist"
: : (I'm not an editorial cartoonist nor do cartoon strips)).
: I have no problem with your terminology. I am sick of the term "comics", too.
: They're not generally funny.. However, anything else doesn't roll of the
: tongue... yet.
: : > Disclaimer: If you read this letter and it doesn't apply to you, it
: : > doesn't.
: : I've read this and apparently it doesn't apply to me. :P
: Maybe it doesn't. Totally.
: : --
: : Eric "education is the cure for ignorance" Cheng
: : UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
: : s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
: : e...@capitalnet.com
: : http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
: : http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
: : http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
: : http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/nene.html (Nene-chan Shrine homepage)
: MSG
Eric T. Cheng
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc,rec.arts.manga
References: <3pat61$r...@hawk.anselm.edu>
Distribution: world
Michael Swiderek (mswi...@hawk.anselm.edu) on 16 May 1995 15:07:45 -0400 wrote:
: Maybe I misunderstood you. I just got the impression that you were insulting
: superhero comics/ contrasting them with "fine art". I retract my arguement, if
: this is not what you mean.
Yes because I like to do comics which aren't part of the superhero genre,
which dominates most of the N.American comic industry -- and only
recently has there been a trend away from the superhero genre. :)
: Yes, but how do you know what the intent of the artist is? I don't know how
Sometimes it's difficult and other time it's not. As I said, I don't
consider commericial art, such as ad design, "fine art" since the artist
creates the work for commercial purposes and not for the sake of art.
However, there are so-called fine artists (too many regrettably) that
make "fine art" just for the money...
: Duchamp's readimades support your point, but they do support mine. He was
: questioned as being not an artist, because he took simple everyday objects
: rather than doing traditional "fine art". How can you say that someone
Um...that was my point...he more or less had questioned the definition of
art (please reread my previous post), as did the Impressionists with
their "nontraditional: works.
: did something with the intent of art? Whereas I don't care for Crichton,
: it is obvious that he intended to critique development in Jurrasic Park
: (did I get his name right? I don't tend to follow movies, but I have seen
Nonetheless the movie is pure entertainment (it has lots of scientific
flaws of course).
: it.) Are superhero comics created for entertainment? Or is it a form
Yes. I enjoy going to my local comic stores and relaxing at home reading
the latest adventures of Batman. It is a form of escapism (albeit the
plots tend to repeat itself in most comics...).
: of expressionism? Matisse, the shittiest artist that ever lived, but
A matter of your personal opinion and not necessarily everyones...:P
Regardless of personal opinions he was part of the Impressionist movement
which helped define modern Western art. There are plenty of "fine
artists" whose works should be categorized as "shitty" (as you bluntly
put it) but they do have a great historical importance in Western art
history.
: nevertheless considered a fine artist, painted for entertainment.
Yes, and Duchamp also did the typical portaits for nobles and the
wealthy. I personally would include editorial cartoonists as "fine
artists" 'cause they do make personally statements with their art (and
often than not come under public fire for them).
: That's bullshit -- utter bullshit. The people who want to work at Image
: Image's art, that's why they apply there. Also, they intend to teach so that
Yes, there are good artists at Image but there are bad ones as well. But
look at all the titles created by the founders of Image and you will see
that the newbie artists are similiar to the founder's style (there are
exceptions of course, ie. Gen13's artist).
: these newbies can start their own titles. I myself am planning on applying
: to Image over the summer, yet I definately have my own style. Also, the
Well, good luck! :)
: nuances in Image are their. I can identify any of the good artists right off:
: Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri, J. Scott Campbell, Dale Keown, Sam Kieth (you can't
But these are the founders of Image, or at least the senior artists.
Again I pointed out that the founders, especially Rob "massive ego"
Liefeld tend to hire newbie artists who draw close to their own styles.
I just find that there are way too many young comic artists out there,
working for Marvel, Imaga and DC, who are practically Jim Lee, Rob
Liefeld, Marc Silvestri and Todd McFarlane clones.
When I did my own comic, _Heroes Unltd., during my stint as the
Graphics Editor at the university student newspaper, Jim Lee was my
biggest influence. I do enjoy his work and I do admit to copy his
style. However, I learned and developed my own style, especially after
everyone else was copying Jim Lee as wel...:/
: tell me he draws like anyone else), etc. As to Bubblegum Crisis, well, at
: least we agree on _something_! :)
I rather have us having separate opinions and argue as civilized persons
than always agreeing on the same thing, otherwise it becomes rather
boring on the Net... ;)
: You don't read them because of their policies? That's bullshit. That's like
Um do you mind cutting down on the profanity just because you don't agree
with my personal opinions? I don't like Marvel nor Image anymore 'cause
I don't agree with their policies. If you haven't noticed Marvel has
practical driven away all of the good talents (that's why Image was
formed), Marvel churns out books with limited-edition-glow-in-the-dark-
hologram-multicover books. If you haven't read the articles by John
Byrne and Peter David (again I referred this point before in my previous
post) have noted that the Image founders have done exactly what they set
out not to do like Marvel.
: saying "I can't appreciate H.R.Giger, the best artist on the face of the earth,
: because he is an atheist." That's an excuse -- you must have something else
Please don't put word in my mouth. I don't like Marvel nor Image, these
are COMPANIES, which sole purpose is to make money (this is the reason
why I don't Disney but that's another matter...). Otherwise they'll be
charities or fanartists... Personal beliefs and ideologies of artists
(be it writers, visual artists, musicians, etc) should have no bearing on
the enjoyment of the art itself.
: against them. Yes, Byrne was a great, but he's had his day -- I far prefer
But how many of the Image founders can both write and draw WELL? John
Byrne took years to develop his drawing skills and his writing skills.
: his Captain America stuff to his new stuff. As to PAD, all I know about this
: guy is he's on the 'net. I've been into comics for probably over 10 years, and
Well at least he's on the Net, go ask him what his opinions on Image is.
Remember it's his opinions, if you don't like it don't flame him 'cause
he (just like you and me) have the right to voice it. I'm not flaming
you just 'cause you're flaming me 'cause you don't agree with my own
opinions. I'm try to argue my point with evidence and logic, and avoid
such profanity that you have been using in your reply to my previous post.
: I read back issues, too (hey, this is a feat considering I'm only about
: 19), and I have no idea who he is. Then again, I don't pay attention to
: writers.
*shrug*
: Sorry, as I said, I got the wrong opinion about what you said. I think I
: still disagree with you, though. :)
Good. Just because I don't like Marvel or Image anymore doesn't mean I'm
out here on the Net flaming people how read them. I still love the
artwork of many of the Marvel and Image artists but it's the companies I
don't like so I protest with my money. Simple as that. :)
: Hey, I have nothing against galleries; when I get the chance to be exhibitted,
: I do take it, but I've primarily done posters. My point about elitism is
: that you are differentiating between fine art and "that stuff". That's
: elitist.
That stuff? What is that stuff? I'm just using the modern defintion of
"fine art", although I personally don't agree with it, it's the accepted
definition. As I said in my previous post I'm personnaly trying to get
comics and animation to be accepted as valid forms of visual narrative
art forms. But remember not all films, paintings, sculptures, videos,
etc. are "fine art", sometimes they are simply created for entertainment
purposes.
: Oooh! Ooh! I have! :) It was okay, but everyone seems to think anything
: to do with the holocaust is the balls! Schindler's List, Maus, etc. In fact,
: I probably would like it more if the holocaust wasn't puked into my ear
: every five seconds. I am not anti-semitic or anything like that. I think
Please list all of these holocause related comics, movies, films, etc.
that have come out so much that disgusts you...
: we need to be educated about what happened. I'm just sick of everyone
Umm...isn't that what both _Maus_ and _Schindler's List_ tried to do? WWII
ended 50 years ago and most young people don't know the true horrors of
the war. _Maus_ was a more-or-less a bibliography of Art Spiegelman's
father's ordeal as a Jew during the Nazi's reign of terror during WWII.
Steven Spielburg made _Schindler's List_ 'cause it was personal to him,
himself of Jewish descent, and wanted to show to the mainstream audience
the horrors of WWII as well and not some glorified war movies of the '50s
and '60s.
: restating it. I guess, I reject "alternative" comics for the same reason
I really pity you. Are you so closed minded that you won't accept
anything else except what you like? I've read Marvels and Images and
based upon MY own opinions stopped reading them. I'm willing to try new
things which to me seem that you are unwilling to do.
: you seem to discredit mainstream comics. :) Which is kind of odd, come to
: think about it.a
I have nothing against mainstream comics, I enjoy reading them. I just
wish you would read my entire previous post. I stated that I personally
don't read (at least not a lot) of alternative/underground comics.
Again just because you don't agree with my opinions they are my
opinions. You have little chance of swaying them if you continue to use
profanity and insulting me. You have brought up interesting points but
they are overshadowed by your ignorance and intolerance of other genres
and mediums which you personally don't like. I don't like Western
abstract art but I do accept them as art nonetheless.
--
Eric "tolerance is a rare commodity today" Cheng
David R. Henry
>The thing that makes any art a work of fine art is the intent of the
>artist.
In that case, "Plan Nine from Outer Space" is fine art, considering
the considerable artistic aspirations of Ed Wood. While an immensely
enjoyable film, and for more than just its moronic points, I'm not
exactly sure that "Plan Nine" belongs in the fine art section.
In short, your definition removes the cultural definition of art work
and places it all in the mind of the artist. Perhaps a serial killer
leaves her victims in what is, to her, a deeply significant artistic
heap that represents various things about the culture she's protesting.
Unfortunately, our society does not view serial killing as an acceptable
artform. Is it our fault for not knowing the intent of the artist?
>Is this artwork created for the purpose of entertainment/pure
>commercialism (ie. such as ad designs) or is the artwork created for art
>itself?
What about commissions? Michelangelo did most of his art on commission
for various church officials and nobles. Are you saying that doing
something for money removes the artistic intent behind it? If an
artist needs money to survive in the world, isn't surviving to produce
more art part of the artistic process?
--
David R. Henry-Rogue Fan Club / My plan shall involve everyone with garlic
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS / What was the question? -- Kate Bush
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Evolution: Give it some time, it'll grow on ya.
Eric T. Cheng
: Ok... Manga has been around for almost a millenium, and comic about half
: a century.
The modern Western comic has is over 100 years old. One panel political/
editorial cartoons have been around for over 150 years. The first regular
comic strip was Ricard Outcault's _Down Hogan's Alley_, which featured
The Yellow Kid (who was the "prototype" of MAD Magazine's mascot, I can't
remember his name at the moment...).
: "Manga" was originally written by a budha priest in the 11th century. It was
: a simple picture (though very large) with a cynical drawing of the human
: society of that era. Budha's were draw as frogs, priests as chimpanzese. etc.
If one wants to go back, Western comics can be traced back to a tapestry,
the _Bayeux Tapestry_ (c.1073-83), which is considered one of the
earliest form of the visual narrative -- it depicts William the
Conqueror's invasion of England.
: From there on, not many "historic" or significant manga appeared. Manga
: rebirthed itself in the late 20th centuries of Japan and greatly inspired the
: young readers. Manga in this day is read by all age groups, and the
: category of the story, subject, case, etc the manga addresses is very
: wide ranging. One can say manga is like a common book turned into pictures.
Agreed. The great thing about manga is that it has anything and
everything you can think of (yes, there are mangas on mah jon...@_@).
: Comic... on the other hand seems souly to depend on "adventure". It
: targets only the children and the mania's. It is a "specific" type of
: book, and no more.
This is a generalization. The N.American comic market is dominated by
the superhero genre and comics for kids (ie. Disney comcis). However,
there are other genres in N.American comics -- the alternative/underground
comix that arose from the crackdown on horror/adventure comics during the
1950s. From the censorship of the horror/adventure comics of the '50s
also came the rebirth of the superhero genre (it died soon after WWII).
There are many non-superhero genre N.American comics out there, pick them
up and read them! :) But please don't generalize that ALL of N.American
comics are only one or two genres.
Also, take into consideration European comics, the superhero genre is
nearly nonexistant. If anything, the European and Japanese comic writers-
artists have progressed the art of the comic farther than the founders of
the modern comic, the Americans.
--
Eric "did a research paper on comics" Cheng
Michael Swiderek
: Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc,rec.arts.manga
: References: <3pat61$r...@hawk.anselm.edu>
: Distribution: world
: Michael Swiderek (mswi...@hawk.anselm.edu) on 16 May 1995 15:07:45 -0400 wrote:
: : Yes, but how do you know what the intent of the artist is? I don't know how
: Sometimes it's difficult and other time it's not. As I said, I don't
: consider commericial art, such as ad design, "fine art" since the artist
: creates the work for commercial purposes and not for the sake of art.
: However, there are so-called fine artists (too many regrettably) that
: make "fine art" just for the money...
I can agree to an extent. Most commercial art is not fine art -- it doesn't
even try to be.
: : Duchamp's readimades support your point, but they do support mine. He was
: : questioned as being not an artist, because he took simple everyday objects
: : rather than doing traditional "fine art". How can you say that someone
: Um...that was my point...he more or less had questioned the definition of
: art (please reread my previous post), as did the Impressionists with
: their "nontraditional: works.
a
Um. Sorry, I still don't see how this supports your point. Duchamp shows
that we cannot always define what fine art is by traditional standards.
Therefore, to differentiate between fine and not is impossible or virtually
impossible.sl
: : did something with the intent of art? Whereas I don't care for Crichton,
: : it is obvious that he intended to critique development in Jurrasic Park
: : (did I get his name right? I don't tend to follow movies, but I have seen
: Nonetheless the movie is pure entertainment (it has lots of scientific
: flaws of course).
In your eye. As I say, however, he probably did intend it to be art. And,
again, why can't fine art entertain? I marvel at Van Gogh, etc. It is
entertainment for me.
: : it.) Are superhero comics created for entertainment? Or is it a form
: Yes. I enjoy going to my local comic stores and relaxing at home reading
: the latest adventures of Batman. It is a form of escapism (albeit the
: plots tend to repeat itself in most comics...).
So you go against your point again -- you said fine art is defined by the
intent of the artist, yet now you define it by what _you_ get out of it.
Take for example Sam Kieth's the Maxx -- he's definitely got something going,
even though I am entertained by it. You have no idea, no matter how
educated you are, of what runs through the minds of creators. Noone but
they do.
: : of expressionism? Matisse, the shittiest artist that ever lived, but
: A matter of your personal opinion and not necessarily everyones...:P
: Regardless of personal opinions he was part of the Impressionist movement
: which helped define modern Western art. There are plenty of "fine
: artists" whose works should be categorized as "shitty" (as you bluntly
: put it) but they do have a great historical importance in Western art
: history.
You miss my point, I was simply putting an aside for humor into the text.
My point is in the next part.
: : nevertheless considered a fine artist, painted for entertainment.
: Yes, and Duchamp also did the typical portaits for nobles and the
: wealthy. I personally would include editorial cartoonists as "fine
: artists" 'cause they do make personally statements with their art (and
: often than not come under public fire for them).
Matisse did not make points in his art. If you've read his essays, and I
have, he says he painted _PURELY_ for entertainment. So hah. :) You can't
deny as well that Jim Lee has changed drastically the way in which peopl are
renderred; why can't he be considered a fine artist as well?
: : That's bullshit -- utter bullshit. The people who want to work at Image
: : Image's art, that's why they apply there. Also, they intend to teach so that
: Yes, there are good artists at Image but there are bad ones as well. But
: look at all the titles created by the founders of Image and you will see
: that the newbie artists are similiar to the founder's style (there are
: exceptions of course, ie. Gen13's artist).
So? They are not the ones I buy for -- still, because Post Impressionists
partially copied Impressionists, does this devalue what the Impressionists
did?
: : these newbies can start their own titles. I myself am planning on applying
Sorry -- I didn't mean to be offensive. That's just how I talk. Especially
on the 'net. I don't mean to be rude. really.
: : saying "I can't appreciate H.R.Giger, the best artist on the face of the earth,
It's not so much just artworks as it is my entire schooling career. :)
: : we need to be educated about what happened. I'm just sick of everyone
: Umm...isn't that what both _Maus_ and _Schindler's List_ tried to do? WWII
: ended 50 years ago and most young people don't know the true horrors of
: the war. _Maus_ was a more-or-less a bibliography of Art Spiegelman's
: father's ordeal as a Jew during the Nazi's reign of terror during WWII.
: Steven Spielburg made _Schindler's List_ 'cause it was personal to him,
: himself of Jewish descent, and wanted to show to the mainstream audience
: the horrors of WWII as well and not some glorified war movies of the '50s
: and '60s.
: : restating it. I guess, I reject "alternative" comics for the same reason
: I really pity you. Are you so closed minded that you won't accept
: anything else except what you like? I've read Marvels and Images and
: based upon MY own opinions stopped reading them. I'm willing to try new
: things which to me seem that you are unwilling to do.
No, it's mostly I see the art and am left empty. But that's why I don't
buy them. I _reject_ them because I hate the image they put off, of "we
are better than adolescent superhero books. We don't need to be good
(proficient) artists."
: : you seem to discredit mainstream comics. :) Which is kind of odd, come to
: : think about it.a
: I have nothing against mainstream comics, I enjoy reading them. I just
: wish you would read my entire previous post. I stated that I personally
: don't read (at least not a lot) of alternative/underground comics.
: Again just because you don't agree with my opinions they are my
: opinions. You have little chance of swaying them if you continue to use
: profanity and insulting me. You have brought up interesting points but
: they are overshadowed by your ignorance and intolerance of other genres
: and mediums which you personally don't like. I don't like Western
: abstract art but I do accept them as art nonetheless.
Sorry, again. I don't mean to insult you or be profane. I just come across
like that on the net. I could say the same thing in person, and it would be
clearer by my iintonation. Maybe I just aought to be more careful.
: --
: Eric "tolerance is a rare commodity today" Cheng
: UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
: s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
: e...@capitalnet.com
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/nene.html (Nene-chan Shrine homepage)
MSG
"I am the red thread between nothingness and eternity" -SRI CHINMOY.
Eric T. Cheng
: Eric T. Cheng writes:
--
Eric "" Cheng
Eric T. Cheng
with my post on it (except for the quotes..).
: Eric T. Cheng writes:
: >The thing that makes any art a work of fine art is the intent of the
: >artist.
David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) on Wed, 17 May 1995 wrote:
: In that case, "Plan Nine from Outer Space" is fine art, considering
: the considerable artistic aspirations of Ed Wood. While an immensely
: enjoyable film, and for more than just its moronic points, I'm not
: exactly sure that "Plan Nine" belongs in the fine art section.
It could be...I didn't see _Ed Wood_ so I can't make a comment on it.
Not all fine art is good art -- it's just if it's successful in doing
what the artist wants the art to become (this is what happens during
critques :().
: In short, your definition removes the cultural definition of art work
: and places it all in the mind of the artist. Perhaps a serial killer
: leaves her victims in what is, to her, a deeply significant artistic
: heap that represents various things about the culture she's protesting.
: Unfortunately, our society does not view serial killing as an acceptable
: artform. Is it our fault for not knowing the intent of the artist?
This is part of the contemporary art definition of art. There are some
performance artists who actually do a bit outrageous things and call it
"art". One famous example years ago in Vancouver (I believe) was a
performance artist who wanted to smash live rats under blocks of cement
(he didn't do it under lots of protest). There were performance artists
during the late '60s and 70's who multilated themselves for the sake of
their "art". This is a form of shock art and you won't find much of this
today.
'Cause of the early Impressionist who helped redefine what is considered
"art" (in the Western sense), it has opened the doors for people create
art which may not be art to everyone... The mainstream viewer (the
average Joe) often have trouble reading Abstract art. About six years
ago the National Gallery of Canada (here in Ottawa) purchsed Barnett
Newman's _Voice of Fire_ (a blue field with a thick red stripe in the middle)
for $1.2 million Cdn. There was a lot of contraversy and fury over the
purchase, mostly because the general public didn't understand Minimalism
and the imporance of this work as part of the Minimalist movement (it's
not the greatest painting but it's important nonetheless).
: What about commissions? Michelangelo did most of his art on commission
: for various church officials and nobles. Are you saying that doing
: something for money removes the artistic intent behind it? If an
Ok, true enough. However, contemporary acceptance of what is or is not
considered "high art" is different from the Renaissance's. Yes, both
Michelango and the ad designer do create art on commission. However, the
intent is different. Michelango was told by the Church to create works to
inspire religious awe to those who entered the Sistine Chapel, but it was
his vision and genius (and help from assistants of course ;)) to create
the masterpiece...money was a sidenote consider he spent years on his
back working on the Sistine Chapel ceiling...it was out of dedication to
his art. I'm not bashing ad designers (I think some of them are amazing
with their designs) but their intent is different although they do create
art -- they create art 'cause they're paid to do it.
: artist needs money to survive in the world, isn't surviving to produce
: more art part of the artistic process?
That's a problem I believe with young studio artists like myself who
would like to continue to paint, sculpt, etc. but lack the necessary starting
funds to produce art (studio space rental, materials :(, etc.).
A prof of mine was offered $60,000 for a work of his on the condition
he shrink it down to size in order to fit into the potential buyer's
house. My prof said that it was between the $60K (which he needed at the
time) or his integrity as an artist... Most of the profs in my program
teach 'cause they need the money to fund their art process (after
teaching one or two terms they take a sabbatical to work on their primary
jobs as artists).
I myself am stuck in between since illustration is often than not
frowned upon by these "high" artists, and I love doing graphic narratives
(comics). I don't make these definition, I was just taught them. If
anything I'm trying to redefine art, to accept the graphic narrative as a
valid art form (like video, film and now computers are accepted today).
--
Eric "yin and yang" Cheng
Eric T. Cheng
: I can agree to an extent. Most commercial art is not fine art -- it doesn't
: even try to be.
Ditto.
: Um. Sorry, I still don't see how this supports your point. Duchamp shows
: that we cannot always define what fine art is by traditional standards.
: Therefore, to differentiate between fine and not is impossible or virtually
: impossible.sl
I'm trying to say that Duchamp and others helped redefine that that
so-called "high art" no longer has to be only Academy sponsored works.
What I'm trying to say is that it is now possible to use different
mediums to create art. I would really like people to recognize comics or
graphic narrative (the latter term I personally prefer) as a valid art
form. Regrettably, most of my peers and art profs don't agree :(.
: In your eye. As I say, however, he probably did intend it to be art. And,
: again, why can't fine art entertain? I marvel at Van Gogh, etc. It is
: entertainment for me.
Don't use the word entertain, use "engaging" as one of my profs, Tony
Brown put it. If you're entertained by something you're not thinking
about the work itself but simply enjoying for the sake of a diversion
from the real world (that's why I plan to go see _Die Hard 3_ this
Friday! :)). A successful art work engages its audience to think about
the work. Not all "fine art" engages, some simply were created to
"entertain", to please the eyes (especially portraits commissioned by
rich bastards! ;))
: So you go against your point again -- you said fine art is defined by the
: intent of the artist, yet now you define it by what _you_ get out of it.
: Take for example Sam Kieth's the Maxx -- he's definitely got something going,
I do like his style. It's different to say the least. I'm glad there are
no Sam Kieth clones out there otherwise it would lessen his appeal of his
works (I got bored with Jim Lee's stuff (yes it's a sacriledge ;)) since
there are so many new comic artists out there copying his style (yes I
did it for a while too :P).
: even though I am entertained by it. You have no idea, no matter how
: educated you are, of what runs through the minds of creators. Noone but
: they do.
Ditto.
: Matisse did not make points in his art. If you've read his essays, and I
: have, he says he painted _PURELY_ for entertainment. So hah. :) You can't
: deny as well that Jim Lee has changed drastically the way in which peopl are
: renderred; why can't he be considered a fine artist as well?
There are plenty of comic artists (Japanese, N.American, European) who
should be and actually are considered "fine artists". My prof, Dr.
Philip Fry wrote a book on Steve Steranko, one of, if not the, most
influential N.American comic artists (most of the narrative techniques
used by N.American comic artists today were developed by Steve
Steranko). The Art Gallery of Winnipeg (according to Dr. Fry's book) had
done an exhibit of Steve Steranko's works on _Captain America_, _The
Incredible Hulk_, _Nick Fury_. Again comics does have it's place in fine
arts, but comics does have it's share of crap as well (and regrettably
there's a lot out there on the shelves today :().
Some superhero genre books I consider great works of art are Frank
Miller's _The Dark Knight Returns_, Dave Gibson's _The Watchmen_, Wil
Eisner's _The Spirit_, and Dave Steven's _The Rocketeer_. Not only do
they have great art BUT a great writing as well. Good comics have to be
both and can't be just one.
: Sorry -- I didn't mean to be offensive. That's just how I talk. Especially
: on the 'net. I don't mean to be rude. really.
It's alright. :)
: No, it's mostly I see the art and am left empty. But that's why I don't
: buy them. I _reject_ them because I hate the image they put off, of "we
: are better than adolescent superhero books. We don't need to be good
: (proficient) artists."
I agree with you here. I don't like such attitudes, that's why I'm
having this lil' debate with you now. Yes there are more to N.American
comics than the superhero genre, but that genre is still a valid comic
genre -- just because there are a lot of crap in that genre doesn't mean
all of it is bad, some of them is much better than the alternative
stuff. However, people should give other things a try nonetheless. I
never bothered with _Love and Rockets_ before until a friend of mine
introduced to it. I don't like most underground comix 'cause I dont'
enjoy the artwork (but that's me as an artist speaking (and I'm
somethings anal about details;) )).
Well, I think we actually think similiar but we had a miscommunications.
I hope we have cleared things up and go back to reading comics (be it
Japanese manga, N.American comics, underground comix, or European graphic
novels...).
--
Eric "ate too much tonight..." Cheng
David Goldfarb
) A prof of mine was offered $60,000 for a work of his on the condition
)he shrink it down to size in order to fit into the potential buyer's
)house. My prof said that it was between the $60K (which he needed at the
)time) or his integrity as an artist...
Well, jeez. Don't keep us in suspense here -- which did
he choose?
David Goldfarb <*>|From the fortune cookie file:
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET |"Sell your ideas -- they are totally acceptable."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
Charles M Seaton
: Ok... Manga has been around for almost a millenium, and comic about
: half a century.
Say what? Even by the strictest definitions, American Comics have
been around about a century - since 1905 or so. I think it's fair
to say that western comics in their recognizable modern form -
a story told via sequential panels divided by borders on a printed
page - go back to at least the fifteenth century - "The Tortures of
Saint Francis," for instance.
: "Manga" was originally written by a budha priest in the 11th
: century. It was a simple picture (though very large) with a cynical
: drawing of the human society of that era. Budha's were draw as
: frogs, priests as chimpanzese. etc.
On the other hand, broadly defining comics (as you broadly define
manga, above), we could also say that comics go back to 1049 AD in
Mexico.
Or we could admit that Egypt (as usual) has everyone beat
in the "been there, done that" catagory, by producing comics around
1300 bc.
Or we could admit that this line of arguement is futile. =)
(I'd like to thank Scott McCloud for chapter one of Understanding
Comics...)
[Nice and correct description of Manga snipped.]
: Comic... on the other hand seems souly to depend on "adventure".
: It targets only the children and the mania's. It is a "specific"
: type of book, and no more.
Untrue. This doesn't describe Doonesbury, Love & Rockets, Maus, or
a hundred other good American comics, and it seems to be completely
ignorant of the existance of European comics.
Honestly, I appreciate all the good things you've been saying about
Manga - but you're genuinely ignorant of the history and variety of
western comics, and should probably not make such proclaimations on
the subject until you know more.
Yours,
--Ennead
Michael Swiderek
: There are plenty of comic artists (Japanese, N.American, European) who
: Philip Fry wrote a book on Steve Steranko, one of, if not the, most
: influential N.American comic artists (most of the narrative techniques
: used by N.American comic artists today were developed by Steve
: Steranko). The Art Gallery of Winnipeg (according to Dr. Fry's book) had
: done an exhibit of Steve Steranko's works on _Captain America_, _The
: Incredible Hulk_, _Nick Fury_. Again comics does have it's place in fine
: arts, but comics does have it's share of crap as well (and regrettably
: there's a lot out there on the shelves today :().
Since you like Sam Kieth, I believe he's been exhibited, too. That's how
some guy from MTV got interested enough to get the Maxx cartoon started.
: I agree with you here. I don't like such attitudes, that's why I'm
: having this lil' debate with you now. Yes there are more to N.American
: comics than the superhero genre, but that genre is still a valid comic
: genre -- just because there are a lot of crap in that genre doesn't mean
: all of it is bad, some of them is much better than the alternative
: stuff. However, people should give other things a try nonetheless. I
: never bothered with _Love and Rockets_ before until a friend of mine
: introduced to it. I don't like most underground comix 'cause I dont'
: enjoy the artwork (but that's me as an artist speaking (and I'm
: somethings anal about details;) )).
: Well, I think we actually think similiar but we had a miscommunications.
: I hope we have cleared things up and go back to reading comics (be it
: Japanese manga, N.American comics, underground comix, or European graphic
: novels...).
I think I can finally say I do agree with you for the most part. I probably
got the wrong impression from your initial post, but, hey, that's what
discussion is for. Been a pleasure arguing with you. :)
: --
: Eric "ate too much tonight..." Cheng
: UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
: s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
: e...@capitalnet.com
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
: http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/nene.html (Nene-chan Shrine homepage)
MSG
Francis A Uy
>Ok... Manga has been around for almost a millenium, and comic about half
>a century.
BZZT! Incorrect. Your current issues of Dragonball have as much
to do with 11th century Buddhist priests as my current issues of
Sandman have to do with 11th century Norman tapestries, and 13th
century BC Egyptian tomb paintings. If you count those early
works as manga, I count all of them as comics.
Also, examples of comics (editorial cartoons, et al) in Europe and
America are easily found from the 1600's on up.
>category of the story, subject, case, etc the manga addresses is very
>wide ranging. One can say manga is like a common book turned into pictures.
One could say the EXACT SAME things about comics. In fact, I have,
on several occasions.
Here is a short test case with four examples:
1) Doonesbury
2) Acme Novelty Library
3) Dark Knight Returns
4) Fist of the North Star
1,2,3 are considered comics. For some reason you claim 4 is not.
Yet 3,4 are the most similar in genre, style, plot, art, etc.
Perhaps there is a flaw in your definitions & logic?
If we were to chart the types of comics produced by various cultures,
the graph would look something like this:
non-fiction . . . abstract . . . adventure . . . romance . . . etc
Europe * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ?
USA * * * * * * * ********* * * *
Japan * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * *
In other words, the amount of variation WITHIN each culture
is much Much MUCH larger than the variation BETWEEN cultures.
Which leads me to believe that the similarities are more
important than the differences.
An analogy: the english word for "mostly-furless bipedal
intelligent mammal that relies on tools for its survival"
is "human". But you see, the Japanese tend to be a little
shorter, with certain facial features, etc, so they are NOT
humans, but are instead [insert japanese word here]. This
is EXACTLY what you are trying to say about comics & manga.
-F
.
Eric T. Cheng
: I think I can finally say I do agree with you for the most part. I probably
: got the wrong impression from your initial post, but, hey, that's what
: discussion is for. Been a pleasure arguing with you. :)
--
Eric "still wants to be a pro comic artist" Cheng
Eric T. Cheng
) A prof of mine was offered $60,000 for a work of his on the condition
) house. My prof said that it was between the $60K (which he needed at the
) time) or his integrity as an artist...
David Goldfarb (gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu) on 18 May 1995 08:34:01 GMT wrote:
: Well, jeez. Don't keep us in suspense here -- which did
: he choose?
Actually, I don't know myself...:/ He wouldn't tell us... (lil' bastard! ;))
But knowing him I think he would have chosen his artistic integrity over
the money, 'cause it's easier to get more money than your integrity.
Besides, I know he hates MBAs, lawyers and bureaucrats (and these are
often the people who buy art or give grants to artists)...
Well, I'll bug him about this next time I see him though...(I think
he's back in Paris though for the summer).
--
Eric "watch out for those waiters!" Cheng
Franklin Wang
: In article <3oqqgp$3...@d2.tufts.edu>, aw...@diamond.tufts.edu (Alexander
: Wong) wrote:
: > Shitai zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
: >
: > It's a redundant name, but some creatures need to know who they are.
: ? Was I just insulted? Not sure. What does "Shitai" mean?
Man...Shitai means Zombie(Corpse) he said so above....
You didn't pick it up?
: > : > Manga means comics. go learn some Japanese.
: > : That's what he said, sarcastically.
: >
: > Well, they mean the same "type" of material in two completely different
: > languages, and? You are implying that the English term is superior then
: > the Japanese term,
: Stop it! I never implied any such thing. You inferred it. Or are trying
: to push "hot" buttons here. I could not care less in which language I
: read comics. IMO, the "which language" part is the irrelevant. The
: writing and art is far more important.
Usaually things that get translated into english lose their meaning.
Alot of translations must me modified to make sense
: > that's why the "narrative arts" from Japan should be
: > called using the English term "comics"? And the newsgroup of the Japanese
: > arts should be called under the English term? How racist, they taught
: > those to you in school?
: Eh? "Racist"? You *are* going to publicly apologize for that baseless
: insult, RIGHT? In any case, I am using a term for comics which I
: understand means comics in another language. A term I was supplied by,
: among others, YOU.
I don't think you'll see a apology...Wouldn't fit with the style/form of
Internet.. ^O^
: > : Yes, and therefore belong in the "comic books" heirarchy, r.a.comics.*
: >
: > Did your haka got hakaishimashita? That's why you are wandering around
: > vomiting junk? I guess shitai can get pretty racist too. Maybe you should
: > go back to your haka and rest in peace?
: (I don't understand most of this, but...) Well, the personal insults
: (again) aside, what part of this don't you understand? The r.a.comics(or
: WHAT-EVER-THE-HECK-YOU-WANT-TO-CALL-"COMICS").* heirarchy should include
: all "comics" from all cultures and/or countries/and or genres. That is
: all I am trying to say here. Oh yeah, that's racist... Don't you get it?
Something about a tomb sick? dunno...
: > : Say what? This is usenet. You don't need a "right" as long as it is on
: > : topic.
: >
: > Usenet is a place for beings like you who doesn't know anything to make
: > completely irrevelent comments on irrevelent newsgroups.
: Heh. "I know you are but what am I?"
This sounds so childish.
: > : zombie
: >
: > "Kusattashitai ittai ga arawaremashita!"
: "Blah Blah Blah!" to you too.
: zombie
: P.S. If you want me to respond to your insults (otherwise there is no
: point, right?), why don't you insult me in a language I understand?
Break out your japanese dictionary man....
: --
Crimson Elmo
> Usaually things that get translated into english lose their meaning.
It ain't just English, buddy. Anything that's translated into any other
language (or any other medium, for that matter) undergoes a translation
in content as well. This is unavoidable. There are two possible
solutions: 1. Never read/watch/listen to anything translated, so that
you never encounter "adulterated" material; 2. Accept that translators do
the best they can and are often very talented, and read/watch/listen to
translated material so as to increase one's enjoyment and expand one's
horizons.
I like 2. myself.
There are actually few kinds of works which don't translate well. Puns
are probably the most obvious example (although the Asterix books do an
astonishingly good job of finding equivalent puns when the books are
translated). Allusions are another--if a character quotes a lot of
Shakespeare, you're going to run into trouble translating him into
Spanish, but the best solution is to find an equivalent quote from, e.g.,
Cervantes.
--
"So Gunther and Plotnick are your Great Ones?" "We sort of refer to them as
the Adequate Ones."--time gone awry in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnal.fnal.gov)
zombie
Wang) wrote:
> zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : In article <3oqqgp$3...@d2.tufts.edu>, aw...@diamond.tufts.edu (Alexander
> : Wong) wrote:
> : > Shitai zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : > It's a redundant name, but some creatures need to know who they are.
> : ? Was I just insulted? Not sure. What does "Shitai" mean?
> Man...Shitai means Zombie(Corpse) he said so above....
He did? Where?
> You didn't pick it up?
Guess not.
> Usaually things that get translated into english lose their meaning.
> Alot of translations must me modified to make sense
Translations from/to any languages have this hurdle.
> I don't think you'll see a apology...Wouldn't fit with the style/form of
> Internet.. ^O^
I disagree. The style/form of Internet is neither here nor there.
Alexander Wong's integrity and honnor is. If he is okay with "insult,
run, and hide", it speaks about Alexander, not Usenet.
> : > Usenet is a place for beings like you who doesn't know anything to make
> : > completely irrevelent comments on irrevelent newsgroups.
>
> : Heh. "I know you are but what am I?"
>
> This sounds so childish.
I know. That is why I pointed it out. He is putting down people who
read/post to usenet, when he is one himself.
> : P.S. If you want me to respond to your insults (otherwise there is no
> : point, right?), why don't you insult me in a language I understand?
>
> Break out your japanese dictionary man....
Wish I had one, but that's not the point.
zombie
John Tateno
> Ooh, as soon as I have some free time, I'm really going to lay into
> your post.
>
> My dictionary defines "comics" as "a narrative series of drawings,
> often accompanied by captions". I fail to see where it mentions
> adventure stories for children. And manga fits the bill fine.
>
Be my guest. :)
But, BTW, how old is your dictionary. And how concise is it?
You may want to check that up.
No matter, even though the dictionary may seem to say one thing,
we all know it means another.
i.e. some dictionary still only see "faggot" as bundle of twings,
and "gay" as being merry.
Regards,
Johnny.
Paul O'Brien
>: comics are ALL total crap compared to manga.
Well, if you're going to make sweeping generalisations like that,
I doubt very much that you have anything of worth to tell us. Sorry.
Paul O'Brien
pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk, elf...@srv0.law.ed.ac.uk
What I want to know is where he stole the tank from.
Todd VerBeek, GWM
>zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: aw...@diamond.tufts.edu (Alexander Wong) wrote:
>: > Shitai zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: >
>: > It's a redundant name, but some creatures need to know who they are.
>: ? Was I just insulted? Not sure. What does "Shitai" mean?
>Man...Shitai means Zombie(Corpse) he said so above....
>You didn't pick it up?
I didn't. For all I could tell, Wong was implying that to call him a "shitai"
was redundant because Zombie (the person) was obviously one, not because zombie
(the common noun) meant the same thing. It's like saying (as a hypothetical
example) that "Todd" is defined as "an ugly moron" (linguistically it is not),
or saying that "snotty Alexander Wong" is redundant.
>: > Usenet is a place for beings like you who doesn't know anything to make
>: > completely irrevelent comments on irrevelent newsgroups.
>: Heh. "I know you are but what am I?"
>This sounds so childish.
I think that was his point. <smile>
>: > "Kusattashitai ittai ga arawaremashita!"
>: P.S. If you want me to respond to your insults (otherwise there is no
>: point, right?), why don't you insult me in a language I understand?
>Break out your japanese dictionary man....
Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
(*) Apologies for my rather rusty vocabulary, grammar, and use of idiom.
Cheers, Todd
"The cost of freedom of speech is that we must be willing to accept the
good AND the bad, no matter how we define these terms." - Daniel J. Pucca
Iain McCord
so the group would have to be translated as rec.arts.comics.comics .
Tony Chen
: : "Manga" was originally written by a budha priest in the 11th century. It was
: : a simple picture (though very large) with a cynical drawing of the human
: : society of that era. Budha's were draw as frogs, priests as chimpanzese. etc.
: If one wants to go back, Western comics can be traced back to a tapestry,
: the _Bayeux Tapestry_ (c.1073-83), which is considered one of the
: earliest form of the visual narrative -- it depicts William the
: Conqueror's invasion of England.
I've been wanting to say this for ages. But if you all so intent on who's
first, have you considered the Indians? Their stone relief might predates
Jesus Christ. I know for one thing that the Borobudur candi in Indonesia
was from the 6th century and the relief portrays scenes from Ramayana (for
one) and various other stuffs.
"ANIME-MANGA FOREVER!"
Tony.
Michael Swiderek
: zombie (zom...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : In article <3oqqgp$3...@d2.tufts.edu>, aw...@diamond.tufts.edu (Alexander
: : Wong) wrote:
: Usaually things that get translated into english lose their meaning.
: Alot of translations must me modified to make sense
Yeah, like that funny article that shows how things get translated into
another language and back into English and how the meaning changes
drastically. They're usually pretty funny. :) Let's try one now:
Comics (English) ---> Manga (Japanese) ---> Comics (English)
Oh! Shit that's funny!!!! I can't believe that when you translate "comics"
to English to Japanese and back it means that! Totally distorts the meaning!
I'm laughing my ass off -- It's like that "Ist bin ein berliner" thing
Kennedy said! I hope that Bill Clinton doesn't make the mistake of using
the word "Manga" in Japan! He'd look like an ass!
BTW, if this was Japan, I don't think anyone would be arguing that we should
call American manga "comics" .....a n' t
MSG,
amazed that you guys are still arguing...
Darin Johnson
> a century.
Um, only if you really really stretch the meanings of things. First
off, the newspaper comic has been around 100 years last month. Ah,
but you don't consider that "comics", yet you consider something drawn
by a priest in the 11th century a "manga", as if no one else on the
entire planet ever made a line drawing until then.
> Manga in this day is read by all age groups, and the
> category of the story, subject, case, etc the manga addresses is very
> wide ranging. One can say manga is like a common book turned into pictures.
This is the only real difference, manga have a wider audience. Big
deal. They're still comics. Sure, the term manga often includes many
non-comic sorts of things, such as etchings, woodcuts, etc, that means
nothing in this group, since they're never discussed.
The purpose of this group, in fact, if not in the wacky RFD
description, is for discussion of what is commonly called manga, best
described as Japanese comics and graphical stories. The term "comics"
may have evolved from "comic strips", but it includes much more than
that in the US. Any arguing that "manga" is somehow more pure or
artistic or holy than comics is just elistism and bullshit. It's
like saying "Ranma is so much better than X-Men that I feel that
they both shouldn't be called by the same name". You might as well
say "Yojimbo is so much better than The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly,
that I think they both shouldn't be called movies".
> Comic... on the other hand seems souly to depend on "adventure". It
> targets only the children and the mania's. It is a "specific" type of
> book, and no more.
And this is the strange thing. If you look at what's really there,
there is more than just this in the US. And if you look in Japan,
what's the most popular manga? Adventure. Hmm...
Whether or not manga should go under rec.arts.comics is irrelevant
here (maybe it shouldn't, since there's rarely any discussion of
non-manga here, except when explaining how manga are so much more
sacred).
> This is some of the facts and opinions I drew up.
Mostly just opinions.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Floyd here now!"
Damon B. Crumpler
[a] mcloud traces a lot of the history of comics
in understanding comics--- while he does make the disctinction
that a comic need more than one panel, he still finds examples
as early as ancient egypt.
[b] calling all american comics "adventure based" is ignoring the
american comics that aren't. nowadays, that does include
comics published by major companies, as well as some alternative
comics.
the percentage may be lower than in japan, but they're still here.
[c]i consider fine art a useless distinction--
if people Want to consider fine art as somehow different than
commerecial art, they are welcome to do so.
since art is merely subjective interpretation, someone interpreting
an object as "fine art" will make it "fine art" (to them)
certainly, i've seen things/themes/pictures in american comics
that i'd place among my alltime favorites in terms of
intellectual or emotional impact. and, since these are the only
valid measures of quality, i consider american comics
to be just as good as anything else.
i haven't seen that from the translations of japanese comics i've read,
but that may have something to do with what eventually makes
it over here.
certainly, lone wolf and cub came close.
--
Stupid lawsuit of the month- Victims of the oklahoma bombing are suing
the fertilizer company whose fertilizer was used to make the bomb on the g
grounds that not including a chemical tag in the fertilizer contitutes
some suable misconduct. Johhny Cochran's law firm is representing them.
Caldina
<ver...@hope.edu> wrote (and this sentence wasn't in English):
>Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
>con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
I can understand where Japanese pops out from -- after all, manga
originates in Japan and there are a lot of people in manga/anime-oriented
groups that speak Japanese. However, I don't understand where Spanish
(the above sentence IS Spanish, right? <confused look>) comes from. Were
you trying to say that people who say things in other languages do it so
that they can feel superior above those who can't speak that other
language? (I guessed that from "impresarios" which probably means
"impression" and "superioridad" which probably means "superior"... sorry
if I'm wrong, mais je parle francais (un peu) et japonais. Geez, my
French from my high school years are getting rusty. Time to take a French
class again...)
Anyway...
Hoka-no kotoba-de mono-wo kakutoki-wa sugu ato-ni onnaji koto-wo eigo-de
kake-ba yoi-no-dewa naideshou-ka?
(i.e., wouldn't it be okay to write in another language if we wrote it
in English right afterwards?)
...or does that defeat the purpose of writing in a different language?
...never mind.
--r
Robert Blazek
Well if you want another instance what about the Romans. Trajans
Column is a visual narrative.
However if you really want to go back I imagine that cave paintings
are the earliest example of visual narrative.
--
----
Kids dream they can fly. Adults dream they can fly first class.
Susannah Mandel
: In article <3pidjg$2...@hydra.cs.hope.edu>, Todd VerBeek, GWM
: <ver...@hope.edu> wrote (and this sentence wasn't in English):
:>Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
:>con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
What he says is, "Maybe he doesn't (have) it. To use a language which
others do not know in order to impress them with your superiority is a
game for kids."
So he's arguing _against_ this use of language on the Net, yes?
: I can understand where Japanese pops out from -- after all, manga
: originates in Japan and there are a lot of people in manga/anime-oriented
: groups that speak Japanese. However, I don't understand where Spanish
: (the above sentence IS Spanish, right? <confused look>) comes from. Were
: you trying to say that people who say things in other languages do it so
: that they can feel superior above those who can't speak that other
: language?
Yeah -- and also slamming them for so doing. Maybe to suggest that
neither Japanese nor Spanish not Cape Verdean Creole is really justified
in a forum like this, where, presumably, you're posting your opinions so
_everyone_ can understand and comment. I think you weren't supposed to
understand... like, maybe he's trying to make a point..... ? :)
: Anyway...
: Hoka-no kotoba-de mono-wo kakutoki-wa sugu ato-ni onnaji koto-wo eigo-de
: kake-ba yoi-no-dewa naideshou-ka?
: (i.e., wouldn't it be okay to write in another language if we wrote it
: in English right afterwards?)
Well, it's kinda silly. <g> I missed the original post, whatever that
may have been, but it looks like you two are arguing on the same side.
(See, miscommunication problems... tsk tsk... ;)
: ...or does that defeat the purpose of writing in a different language?
Which is -- what? -- to begin with?
cheers,
--;-;--@ susannah };&)
========================================================================
The Devil, having nothing else to do,
Went off to tempt My Lady Poltagrue.
My Lady, tempted by a private whim,
To his extreme annoyance, tempted him.
-- Hilaire Belloc: 'On Lady Poltagrue, a Public Peril.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Susannah R Mandel * sma...@fas.harvard.edu * (617) 493-3518
************************************************************************
"My God!" ejaculated Phelps.
David R. Henry
>I've been wanting to say this for ages. But if you all so intent on who's
>first, have you considered the Indians? Their stone relief might predates
>Jesus Christ. I know for one thing that the Borobudur candi in Indonesia
>was from the 6th century and the relief portrays scenes from Ramayana (for
>one) and various other stuffs.
And then there's the Mayans and the Olmecs over in Central America,
who told all their tales with vast sweeping tapestry-books. Playing
"who thought up it first" is silly.
--
David R. Henry-Rogue Fan Club /// Okay, who was Kate supposed to be again?
Eric T. Cheng
: If one wants to go back, Western comics can be traced back to a tapestry,
: the _Bayeux Tapestry_ (c.1073-83), which is considered one of the
: earliest form of the visual narrative -- it depicts William the
: Conqueror's invasion of England.
Tony Chen (toc...@mtu.edu) on 19 May 1995 14:05:30 -0400 wrote:
: I've been wanting to say this for ages. But if you all so intent on who's
: first, have you considered the Indians? Their stone relief might predates
: Jesus Christ. I know for one thing that the Borobudur candi in Indonesia
: was from the 6th century and the relief portrays scenes from Ramayana (for
: one) and various other stuffs.
The difference is that we're discussing not reliefs but visual naratives,
ie. comics. Comics are a visual narrative that tells a narrative
visually(a reduntant def'n here...), which gives an illusion of passing of
time and space... The _Bayeux Tapestry_ is a narrative of William the
Conqueror's victorious battle, and this narrative is 'read' from left to
right. This is the earliest Western (meaning: European-based) visual
narrative; it is not necessarily the FIRST visual narrative in human
history.
--
Eric "should become an art history teacher..." Cheng
luis toledo
>Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
-----> impresIONarlos or impresionarles
>con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
>(*) Apologies for my rather rusty vocabulary, grammar, and use of idiom.
Apologies accepted.
>Cheers, Todd
>"The cost of freedom of speech is that we must be willing to accept the
>good AND the bad, no matter how we define these terms." - Daniel J. Pucca
Alles Gute
Luis, der Stadtindianer
(Soll ich was auf Deutsch sagen ?)
Francis A Uy
>On Wed, 17 May 1995, Francis A Uy wrote:
>> My dictionary defines "comics" as "a narrative series of drawings,
>> often accompanied by captions". I fail to see where it mentions
>> adventure stories for children. And manga fits the bill fine.
>No matter, even though the dictionary may seem to say one thing,
>we all know it means We.
"We all know it means another" ... hmm ... who should I believe,
you or my own eyes? Does my nose detect -- a troll, perhaps?
On the off chance that I'm wrong about you, I did post a rebuttal
to you several days ago. If you didn't see it, I'll send a copy.
-F
.
Manfred Vogel
l...@flexaut.tuwien.ac.at (luis toledo) writes:
>Alles Gute
>Luis, der Stadtindianer
>(Soll ich was auf Deutsch sagen ?)
- Manfred Vogel
-------------------------------------------------
"Ich bin ein Wiener schnitzel." (Larry Hagman)
-------------------------------------------------
Darin Johnson
: 1) Doonesbury
: 2) Acme Novelty Library
: 3) Dark Knight Returns
: 4) Fist of the North Star
:
: 1,2,3 are considered comics. For some reason you claim 4 is not.
: Yet 3,4 are the most similar in genre, style, plot, art, etc.
: Perhaps there is a flaw in your definitions & logic?
Hmm, people don't explode in the first three. Maybe this is
what separates manga from comics?
Abhay Khosla
> : Here is a short test case with four examples:
> : 1) Doonesbury
> : 2) Acme Novelty Library
> : 3) Dark Knight Returns
> : 4) Fist of the North Star
> :
> : 1,2,3 are considered comics. For some reason you claim 4 is not.
> : Yet 3,4 are the most similar in genre, style, plot, art, etc.
> : Perhaps there is a flaw in your definitions & logic?
> Hmm, people don't explode in the first three. Maybe this is
> what separates manga from comics?
No, remember when those folks blew up at the apartment building when the
electromagnetic pulse hit in the Dark knight Returns? Or when that lady
blew up from the grenade thrown in her purse by the Mutants again in the
Dark Knight Returns?
Therefore, The Dark knight Returns is manga, and all the panels you've
seen are backwards due to translating from English. I hope they do an
anime of it...(wouldn't it be great if some of those anime folks did
stuff off of really good American comics? Noone's smart enough, they all
want Big Deals though instead of quality... )
-Abhay
akh...@umich.edu
Charles M Seaton
: On 23 May 1995, Darin Johnson wrote:
: > : Here is a short test case with four examples:
: > : 1) Doonesbury
: > : 2) Acme Novelty Library
: > : 3) Dark Knight Returns
: > : 4) Fist of the North Star
: > :
: > : 1,2,3 are considered comics. For some reason you claim 4 is not.
: > : Yet 3,4 are the most similar in genre, style, plot, art, etc.
: > : Perhaps there is a flaw in your definitions & logic?
: > Hmm, people don't explode in the first three. Maybe this is
: > what separates manga from comics?
: No, remember when those folks blew up at the apartment building when the
: electromagnetic pulse hit in the Dark knight Returns? Or when that lady
: blew up from the grenade thrown in her purse by the Mutants again in the
: Dark Knight Returns?
: Therefore, The Dark knight Returns is manga, and all the panels you've
: seen are backwards due to translating from English. [...]
But you've both forgotten... while covering one of the Democratic
Presidential elections (I think '84), Roland Hedley blew up. So
therefore Doonesbury is also Manga, and only Acme Novelty Library is
comics. =)
Yours,
--Ennead
Taro Sumitomo
>Hmm, people don't explode in the first three. Maybe this is
>what separates manga from comics?
>Darin Johnson
>djoh...@ucsd.edu
> "Floyd here now!"
You sure people don't explode in Doonesbury?
TS
Robert Fernandez (ENG)
: In article <3pidjg$2...@hydra.cs.hope.edu>, Todd VerBeek, GWM
: <ver...@hope.edu> wrote (and this sentence wasn't in English):
: >Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
: >con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
: However, I don't understand where Spanish
: (the above sentence IS Spanish, right? <confused look>) comes from.
From the Spanish Inquisition.
--
"And when the milkman comes | Robert Fernandez
leave him a note in the bottle | rfer...@chuma.cas.usf.edu
Penguin dust, bring me penguin dust, ------------------------------------
I want penguin dust!" | Do not fold, spindle, or mutilate.
Carlos Diaz (CS)
On 20 May 1995, Caldina wrote:
> In article <3pidjg$2...@hydra.cs.hope.edu>, Todd VerBeek, GWM
> <ver...@hope.edu> wrote (and this sentence wasn't in English):
>
> >Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
> >con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
>
Just so you know, the above line is Spanish with a type-o. It's literal
translation is: "Maybe he does not have it. Using another language that
others do not know to impress them with your superiority is a joke for
youths (teenagers)." Frankly, I got no clue what the writer of that
meant. I've seen posts in the Puerto Rican Newsgroups in full Spanish,
but other than that, I think is plain rude to type in stuff that other
people cannot understand. There's alsways that little voice in the back
of our heads that asks "Did he said hello, or is he insulting my family
honor?"
-Carlos Diaz
BTW the type-o was in the word "impresarlos" which should have been
"impresionarlos" (to impress).
> I can understand where Japanese pops out from -- after all, manga
> originates in Japan and there are a lot of people in manga/anime-oriented
> groups that speak Japanese. However, I don't understand where Spanish
> (the above sentence IS Spanish, right? <confused look>) comes from. Were
> you trying to say that people who say things in other languages do it so
> that they can feel superior above those who can't speak that other
> language? (I guessed that from "impresarios" which probably means
> "impression" and "superioridad" which probably means "superior"... sorry
> if I'm wrong, mais je parle francais (un peu) et japonais. Geez, my
> French from my high school years are getting rusty. Time to take a French
> class again...)
>
> Anyway...
> Hoka-no kotoba-de mono-wo kakutoki-wa sugu ato-ni onnaji koto-wo eigo-de
> kake-ba yoi-no-dewa naideshou-ka?
> (i.e., wouldn't it be okay to write in another language if we wrote it
> in English right afterwards?)
>
> ...or does that defeat the purpose of writing in a different language?
>
> ...never mind.
>
>
> --r
>
>
>
>
>
Todd VerBeek, GWM
>> In article <3pidjg$2...@hydra.cs.hope.edu>, Todd VerBeek, GWM
>> <ver...@hope.edu> wrote (and this sentence wasn't in English):
>>
>> >Quisas el no lo tiene. Usar una lengua que otros no conocen para impresarlos
>> >con su superioridad es un chiste para jovenes.(*)
> Just so you know, the above line is Spanish with a type-o. It's literal
>translation is: "Maybe he does not have it. Using another language that
>others do not know to impress them with your superiority is a joke for
>youths (teenagers)." Frankly, I got no clue what the writer of that
>meant.
One word, in English: IRONY.
To be more locquacious: I intended to emphasise my point by =demonstrating=
how foolish it is to use a language not familiar to most readers.
Cheers, Todd
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