Comparing Japanese and American "comic/manga" art
Martin Bennett
Just a little query here...
What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
to their american counterparts?
IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
in America...
Any thoughts?
--
P-word (ZERO)
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Kenji (in exile)
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Just a little query here...
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
>IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
>lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
>
>Any thoughts?
The Americans tend to specialize, while the Japanese do everything
themselves. Also, the Japanese tend to have weekly/biweekly deadlines,
compared to a monthly/bimonthly one. There are some Japanese manga
put out by partners who split the drawing and story, while I can't
really think of any Americans who do everything (maybe Ben Dunn?).
I hope to start reading American manga again when they stop drawing 100%
of the females with DD/EE/FF busts... Moo!
--
Tenjo Tenge Yuiga Dokuson - Black Brain
Ranma ½ - Dr. Slump - Tennen Shoujo Man
Sanobabicchi Powered - Crayon Shin-chan
Urusei Yatsura - Papa to Odorou - Ramen
E-mail: Yot...@oasis.novia.net (Kenji)
John Hollins
Hagbard Celine wrote:
>
> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> >Just a little query here...
> >
> >What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
> >to their american counterparts?
> >
> >IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
> >their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
> >that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
> far and few between. Manga, everything looks different, much
> different. Granted, its B&W, but its better nonetheless.
> >
> >While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
> >lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
> >never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
> >Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
> >
> >Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
> >methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
> >can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
> >
> >I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
> >does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
> >in America...
> Here its rather commercialized.
> >
> >Any thoughts?
> The manga that Viz, Dark Horse, and other US companies translates is
> o1nly a very small subset of the market. To get a real feeling you
> have to look at the rest.
> ---
> HC/LDD
I should also mention the passion for telling the story. Naoko
Takeuchi (Sailor Moon's artist), from the what I read from the
numerous translations of the end notes she puts in her books
LOVES her work. She likes her fans and they like her. Now Todd
McFarlane (I'm 80% sure of) is only in this for the money. The
man has toy companies and movie deals up the wazoo. Takeuchi-san
also has toy and anime deals but she doesn't come off like a jerk
or a hypocrite. Alot of american artists and companies come off as
being mean and selfish. Marvel doesn't care. Dark Horse doesn't
care (ie Its' many movie deals and leading people on as if they like
them). Frank Miller, I assume doesn't give a crap about the black
people he writes about in Martha Washington. I assume there are
jerk manga artists but the good ones, in artistic ability and kindness
stand out.
John Hollins
Shawn Hagen
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
I gave up on North American work when I realized that most of the
strories just were not all that amzing. In the superhero genre they
were often repetative, unending and ultimately boring. A lot of the
art was nice but in the end that just wasn't enough.
>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
Don't know, can't remember what McFarlane did, but I think there
is a lot of nice art out there. Sometimes I feel that the Japanese
artists don't need all the extra stuff, that they produce beauty with
a mimalist approach. Black line, white paper. Ever seen some of the, I
think it is called, "Iron line" drawings, bhuddist stuff. These
artists could do so much with just a simple line.
And I feel that one of the best visual artistis I have ever come
across is Narumi Kakinouchi who uses her art to expand character at
the same time she uses it to illistrate the strory and know that what
you don't draw can show as much if not more than what you draw.
>Any thoughts?
There are very few of my North American comics I would really care
to hold onto, other than perhaps for monentary reasons. When I return
from Japan I think my Manga collection will be a prized possession for
me.
I think that sizes it up.
"We're here in the Engineering section of the USS Enterprise.
We have replaced the fine Dilithium crystals they usally use
with folgers crystals. Let's see what happens."
Shawn Hagen <ha...@gol.com> Author of a lot of BGC stuff.
Robert Bain
Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
: methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
: can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
You say this as if it was a bad thing?
BTW: Kosuke Fujishima is the Anti-Rob Liefeld. It's true.
--
-- "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
-- are filled with a passionate intensity." --> W. B. Yeats, on Usenet.
--- ObCriminal Speech: FUCK THE CDA!
---Arb...@soho.ios.com
Gene Fornario
In article <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
>Just a little query here...
>
>to their american counterparts?
I don't want to touch that one :)
>I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
In Japan, the artist usually does the scripting, pencils, and will ink the
characters. The backgrounds, inking, and other details are taken care of by
assistants on the artist's payroll. Hayao Miyazaki is an exception. He
worked on all the details of "Nausicaa" for the monthly magazine "Animage."
Enrique Conty
In article <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
>
>I really can't think of a japanese artist who can be mentioned
>in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
?!
>Any thoughts?
Yes. You're very good at sticking both feet in your mouth, son.
(Todd Mc Farlane, indeed. Kids today...)
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Come to Anime Central, the Midwest's First Anime Convention!
April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Rosemont, IL. (A suburb of Chicago)
Visit our website at http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
Momonari Junta, the MegaPlayboy
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Just a little query here...
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
>IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
>lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
>Any thoughts?
I believe that the Japanese (still!) has a better grasp of cinematic
storytelling than do the Americans. For example, the Japanese use
more moment-to-moment and aspect-to-aspect transitions* than the
Merkens, allowing for more plot development and mood setting.
Also, the Japanese aren't pushed to write a lot of plot in one
installment (as the Merkens do), so "dozens of panels can be devoted
to portraying slow cinematic movement or to set a mood."**
The Japanese are also masters of "comic time", or the way the panels
are setup to allow the reader to perceive time. Techniques such as
bleeds (a panel that spills out into the gutter and to the end of the
page), borderless panels, collage, and subjective motion helps the
reader to percieve time in a more effecient way than the Merkens do.
For example, if a Merken artist wanted to portray a scene with a
"timeless quality" to it, he would probably do it with a two page
spread with a standard rectangular panel (any big Image battle scene).
The Japanese, on the other hand, would either use a bleed or a
borderless panel (Masakasu Katsura is a master at this; see any Video
Girl Ai tankoubon).***
Bibliography (geez, I feel like I'm writing a term paper...)
*,**,***: "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" by Scott McCloud,
Kitchen Sink Press, copyright 1992
>P-word (ZERO)
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Junta: Sorry... Been playing too much SFA2... <teehee>
Sakura-chan dai suki!! =)
----
Junta-kun
-----------------------------------------------------
"Chinese food that you get from the mall is more
authentic than Dim Sum!? That's like saying
Yoshinoya is authentic Japanese food!
-Yours truly
-----------------------------------------------------
MegaPlayboy: az...@lafn.org
David Boeren
Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
: that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
: While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
: lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
: never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
: Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
: Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
: methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
: can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
: Any thoughts?
Yeah, nice troll.
Hagbard Celine
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Just a little query here...
>
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
>
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
far and few between. Manga, everything looks different, much
different. Granted, its B&W, but its better nonetheless.
>
>lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
Martin Bennett
arb...@soho.ios.com (Robert Bain) wrote:
>Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>
>: Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>: can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>
Not really... I'm just saying that it's interesting how the japanese
style is more story driven than the american style which tends to be
art driven.
>
>BTW: Kosuke Fujishima is the Anti-Rob Liefeld. It's true.
I supose it is...
>
>--
>-- "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
>-- are filled with a passionate intensity." --> W. B. Yeats, on Usenet.
>--- ObCriminal Speech: FUCK THE CDA!
>---Arb...@soho.ios.com
>
L'Enfant Prodigue
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
>lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
This is a long one.
I don't know how you define "as refine as", but if you're talking
about fastidiousness, exactness, and as you say "detail and impact", I
still have trouble agreeing with you. More realistic, not necessary;
perhaps more "slick" considering the proliferation of computer
coloring in American comics; however, certain not in terms or refine,
detail, or impact.
First, let me say that until the computer came around, most American
comics look pretty bad; I was first attracted back to the manga scene
"because" of the better art in the early 80's.
There are many many Japanese manga artists who are equal to Todd
MacFarlane in that sense. The first that comes to mind is Kano
Seisuke (I think that's how you pronounce his first name, Seisuke).
He goes way back, and his recent stuff is as detailed as it comes,
especially his women. His backgrounds are very realistic, as many
manga are, but his go the extra step. Like Ikegami, he has many
collaborations with Koike, probably one of the greatest manga
"writers" ever. He is well known for his "Test-Dummy Oscar", a
powerful piece of work written by Koike.
Another one is Nagasawa Katsuhiro (I think it's Katsuhiro). While not
as famous as Kano, he is another meticulous artist. I've only read
his "The Edge" and one other thing which I can't remember right now.
In terms of cross-hatching, try Hojo Tsukasa (City Hunter) and
Terasawa Buichi (Cobra). Both of them are masters of cross-hatching,
especially Terasawa. In fact, try Inoue Takehiko, famous for his
immensely popular "Slam Dunk".
Contrast and mastery of the pen? Try Tanaka Masasi of "Gon", one of
my recent favorites (a while back actually since it comes out so
slow). He uses no tones; everything is shaded by pen. The man's a
god.
Another example is Hoshino Yukinobu (2001 Nights); meticulous,
attention to details, effective, dramatic, intense, powerful.
To be sure, there are more muscles, more veins, more shadows in
American comics, and on the whole I'll even say pound for pound and
measure for measure there are more "work" put into a panel than any
Japanese comics; that cannot be argued. More, everything looks much
more "slick", grossy, and rounded, due to the advance and wide spread
use of computer graphic/coloring programs and printing technology;
agains, Japanese manga doesn't even come close in that department;
afterall, they are printed on papers no better than most toilet
tissues. In fact, I've heard that (rumor alert ^_^) many Japanese
manga artists openly admit that American comics "look" better.
However, that is not to say they are any better drawn. Excessiveness
in a drawn panel does not always equate to better art, or even more
"detailed" art. On the contrary, it might even work to clutter the
panel and distract the eye.
Advance in coloring helps, but it doesn't mean the art is better.
First, let me say that computer enhanced coloring is a big step in the
right direction; instead of having the work ruin by bad coloring
process, it is now nearly flawless. More, it can even draw away from
otherwise mediocre art. Teats seem more round, lips glossy red like
rubies, muscles glistening as if oiled, all necessary shades of dark
and blast of brilliance come flying out of each and every character.
Computer color can work wonders, sometimes.
However, I'm begining to see the same pitfall in this new wave of
slick coloring: all that slick coloring looks pretty much the same.
Look at most of the Image titles (excluding Bone of course), is there
any particular noticable difference from each other, or even Marvel
and DC titles? Where's the innovation, the creativity? When does
the coloring itself come into its own as a part of the creative
process of art? The computer dig us out of some fairer bad art versus
the past (just check out some of the ole 70's and 80's Marvel and DC,
and some of the old comics when they used the 4 color processing
system; now talk about bad art!), so when is this new coloring process
is going to take its place as a part of creativity's arsenals?
In manga, in place of coloring, the Japanese uses a huge amount of
tones (Letraset or Zipatone, but I'm sure they got their own brands),
but they're always playing around with it, coming up with new ways and
new effects. Terasawa (his assistants most likely) is one of the best
in the business. Hagiwara Kazushi (of "Bastard" fame) is another
perfect example; not only is he (and his team) is always coming out
with new ways of using tones, he's also combining computer effects in
the b/w art, as are Terasawa and Kishiro Yukito (Gunnm, better known
as Alita here). In that sense, the Japaneses are a lot more creative
with their tones than Americans are with computer coloring.
Well drawn art still requires "originality" and "creativity" computers
or not; fresh ideas and fresh ways of doing things go a long way.
Excessive shadow, cross-hatching, or slick computer coloring does not
necessary make better or even "eye-appealing" art.
If we limited ourselves to the more "realistic" works, that is,
excluding "Dr. Slump", "Doraemon", or "Sailormoon" and concentrate on
the more "hard" manga, meaning exactitude in lines and details such as
buildings, backgrounds, lines in the face, cracks in the teeth,
flaring nostrils and wrinkling skins on the bridge of the nose of a
very angry super-villain or hero, the American stuff is still not any
better; just more work, that's all. More lines representing the hair
does not necessary convey realism, nor number of bulging muscles and
popping veins for that matter.
Take Mark Schultz of "Xenozoic Tales" for example. Of all the
American artists, he is in my opinion the best all around craftsman of
them all. All his pen and ink are practically frame-able. And yet,
he is not nearly as "detailed" as Todd McFarland or Jim Lee and the
other Image crowd, and yet his characters are more powerful, intense,
feminine, or insidious just by the virtue of way he shades--and he
shades mostly in plain black and white (versus a lot of
cross-hatching); very reminiscent of Williamson. The man is a total
master of his craft; now only if he would get off his lazy ass and get
back to it.
In terms of realism, you cannot ignore the background/setting and just
look at the characters. Even when the Japaneses don't put on as much
detail into the characters as Americans, they often put an enormous
amount of effort into the background. They tend to be most fastidious
and detailed, especially when the backgound itself take center-stage
over the characters, which is downright uncommon in American comics.
Adachi Mitsura (Touch, H2, Rough, etc.) is just case in point. His
characters are extremely simplistic in comparison, "cartoony" ifyou
will, but he spends an inordinate amount of pages and panels just on
buildings, temples, trees, clouds, the streets, cars, weather, etc.
just to build the atmosphere, and they are as meticulous and realistic
as they come. Check out Scott McCloud's milestone work,
"Understanding Comics" if you haven't already; he discusses in detail
of this effect and practise.
Oddly, manga does leave a lot of blank space in the panel, especially
druing a close up or quick-time sequence with the characters, which
tends to irritate many American comic readers. We demand a sense of
space for within the panel, a sense of distance and 3-dimensionality,
but the Japanese often neglect that in favor emotion, or motion for
that matter. That's an artistic choice and not a discrepency;.
However, when they do concentrate on the background, look out cause
the scene literally come alive. Remember seeing the background of
Akira the first time? (not the colored shit) I remembered picking it
up back in 85 and I was totally blown away by the backgrounds. There
was nothing like it in America at the time--may be ever...no, "The Big
Guy and His Toy Robot" has all that--but not in page count!
(Actually, Akira is one manga that leaves very little empty space
between the characters and the panel square)
The thing is, we have to take everything into consideration, the
background as well as the characters, the layout as well as individual
panels. The comic book, or manga, should (in most cases) be judged in
its whole, and "details" and craftsmanship count for background as
well as the amount of lines used to illustrate the bicep or the
masseter.
To be sure, the Japanese are NOT any better artists, but they are
certainly on par. There're lots of great American artists doing comic
books today that have great control of the pen, but they too are not
any better than their Japanese counterparts. The thing is, the manga
industry is so impossibly huge that it caters to every possible taste
and age and interest you can imagine, and you can most certainly find
high-detailed art oriented manga if you want..
However, in terms or creativity in the illustrative aspect (not story
now), everything from panel layouts to effects to coming up with new
techniques of representing physical situations or inner emotions, the
Japaneses win hands-down. There is simply no comparison from Marvel
or DC or Image. The only ones who are on that creative level with the
Japaneses are not Todd McFarlene and other artists pumping out your
regular superhero comics featuring bulging biceps and grunting teeth
with never-a-smile mono-expression complete with the latest trend in
bitch-o-rama-bad-girl all carrying ludicrous unimaginative guns the
size of a Buick, but our underground artists such as Crumb,
Spielgelman, and other comic geniuses who're generally ignored by all
the snot-nosed frickled face MTV 2-second attention span 13 year old
brats and clots looking for a bit of teats and ass in their latest
glossy Image titles.
But in the end, that's a lot of Japanese manga trash too (way way way
too much). The only difference between American and Japanese stuff in
the final tally is the Japanese market is much much bigger, and you
can find a lot more good works than here in America (or even Europe,
and they have a lot more appreciation in the medium than over here),
but only in terms of numbers, not percentages.
>I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
Well, actually, the artist rarely does the whole job in Japan, but
they have total creative reign. Manga artists use huge assembly-line
like teams, and if the manga artist's real famous he or she might even
be out of the illustrative process except for the most preliminary
penciling. However, his/her style remains, and the story and creative
aspect are still his/her's.
The thing is, comics and manga both use divisible labor process, but
in Japan usually only one person takes all the credit, unlike here in
the US. In a way there's nothing wrong with that; for the assistants
it's apprenticeship, learning the trade so-to-speak, and in that sense
they stand a better chance of eventually breaking out on their own
than someone's who's not, versus over here you're pretty much
condemned to doing just inking, lettering, or coloring.
Comic art is not fine-art to be hanged for an exhibition; it's
pop-art; individuality and creativity count a lot, not the process
need not be confined to one person. The end result is all that
matter, even if the inking, word-balloning, tone-cutting, speed line,
backgrounds, and computer coloring are done by someone else. It's
like a research project at a research lab: the lab director gets the
credit for the project and the published paper, even though it's the
lab assistants who made the discovery and did most of the work.
(Wheee!)
Whee!
Martin Bennett
co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>In article <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
>>
>[...]
>>in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>
>
>>Any thoughts?
>
>Yes. You're very good at sticking both feet in your mouth, son.
I didn't.
>
>(Todd Mc Farlane, indeed. Kids today...)
What?! Name one artist of ANY sort who is more technically skillful
than McFarlane. As far as I know, there aren't any!
My point was that there is a difference in emphasis in the japanese
and american products. The japanese style is story based, wheras the
american style is relient on fancy art.
>
>--
>Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
>Come to Anime Central, the Midwest's First Anime Convention!
>April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Rosemont, IL. (A suburb of Chicago)
>Visit our website at http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
--
Robert Bain
Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
: >In article <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
: >>
: >[...]
: >>I really can't think of a japanese artist who can be mentioned
: >>in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
: >Yes. You're very good at sticking both feet in your mouth, son.
: What?! Name one artist of ANY sort who is more technically skillful
: than McFarlane. As far as I know, there aren't any!
Then you need to get out more.
Paul Chadwick, John Byrne, Masamune Shirow, John Totleben(? Used to do
Swamp Thing), The guy who does Cry For Dawn (Can't think of his name),
and possibly Scott McCloud.
I like their artwork better than McFarlane's. I'd elaborate, but that
would just be enumerating my personal artistic biases.
BTW, what do you mean by 'Technically skillful'? Lots o' lil' lines? :)
Gwydion
Martin Bennett wrote:
>
> co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
> >In article <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
> >>
> >[...]
> >>I really can't think of a japanese artist who can be mentioned
> >>in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
> >
> >
> >>Any thoughts?
> >
> >Yes. You're very good at sticking both feet in your mouth, son.
>
Yes, yes you did. Todd is hardly regarded by anyone (other than the
stereotypical 14-year old "fanboy") as the "King" of comicdom... the only one
who can truely wear that title these days is the late and lamented Jack
Kirby.
> >
> >(Todd Mc Farlane, indeed. Kids today...)
>
> What?! Name one artist of ANY sort who is more technically skillful
> than McFarlane. As far as I know, there aren't any!
Just off the top of my head: Neal Adams, Arthur Adams, Adam Warren, Joe
Kubert, J. Scott Campbell, Colleen Doran, Wendy Pini, Adam Warren, Masamune
Shirow, CLAMP as a whole, Ryouchi Ikegami, Jim Lee, Alex Ross, John Byrne...
need I go on?
--
Gwydion
Come Visit Harry's Homepage-O-Rama:
http://don.skidmore.edu/~domalley
MegaPlayboy
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> The Americans tend to specialize, while the Japanese do everything
> themselves. Also, the Japanese tend to have weekly/biweekly deadlines,
> compared to a monthly/bimonthly one. There are some Japanese manga
> put out by partners who split the drawing and story, while I can't
> really think of any Americans who do everything (maybe Ben Dunn?).
Well, there's Scott McCloud, creator of ZOT!... Will Eisner (Bone)...
Art Speigelman (Maus)...
> I hope to start reading American manga again when they stop drawing 100%
> of the females with DD/EE/FF busts... Moo!
I'm still waiting for Shirow Masamune to stop drawing females with D-F cup
breasts... =)
---
Junta-kun
David Gabriel White
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
> arb...@soho.ios.com (Robert Bain) wrote:
> >Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
> >
> >: methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
> >
>
> Not really... I'm just saying that it's interesting how the japanese
> style is more story driven than the american style which tends to be
> art driven.
Depends on the comic. The current trend in the market, if WIZARD and
FAN can be believed, is towards hot writers instead of hot artists.
Which is almost a 180-degree turn from five years ago.
DAVE WHITE, dw...@andrew.cmu.edu, http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/dw4e
"Those who induce these stressors on you, were individually not your friends
in the first place, for they wish through these stressors to either brainwash
you, transvalue your sex, or even kill you with alphabet soup."
--Owen W. Gustafson
so...@fred.net
: I should also mention the passion for telling the story. Naoko
: Takeuchi (Sailor Moon's artist), from the what I read from the
: numerous translations of the end notes she puts in her books
: LOVES her work. She likes her fans and they like her. Now Todd
: McFarlane (I'm 80% sure of) is only in this for the money. The
: man has toy companies and movie deals up the wazoo. Takeuchi-san
: also has toy and anime deals but she doesn't come off like a jerk
: or a hypocrite. Alot of american artists and companies come off as
: being mean and selfish. Marvel doesn't care. Dark Horse doesn't
: care (ie Its' many movie deals and leading people on as if they like
: them). Frank Miller, I assume doesn't give a crap about the black
: people he writes about in Martha Washington. I assume there are
: jerk manga artists but the good ones, in artistic ability and kindness
: stand out.
:
: John Hollins
Right. I can quickly give another name: Takahashi Rumiko, loves her
characters, and she doesn't want to hurt its fans by writing something
stupid.
And posting to the original person, I think that what differentiates
American comics form manga is simply style. And I could write a book,
because this word says it all.
Briefly: Manga artists are not lazy, and don't use stinky guest pencillers
every 2 issues. They write their own stories, which many American artists
don't.
Another thing that made me like Anime/Manga, is the realistic development
of the story. Sometimes, the author/director puts moral aspects in
he/she's work to try to make out certain points. (EX. Ghost in the Shell,
Wings of Honneamise, Patlabor 2)etc. Even Sailor Moon delivers a certain
message.
I also read, from an interview with Mrs. Takahashi, that what she wants
people to see from her works, is that is not nice to be mean to others. I
admire her for that.
Other things in Manga/Anime, are the cool drawn faces and bodies. I don't
mean cute faces, I mean faces that are more realistic. Japanese artists
spend time drawing the faces well, so they look nice. Didn't you all see
in cartoons like X-Men, how the faces appear to sometimes be ugly, because
the nose, or mouth has been drawn differently.
And most of all, anime/manga is animation/comics for older persons. I
enjoy animated characters more than live actors, and anime is a great way
to go into.
In closing I'd like to ask a question too, ^_^.
I was always wondering, how, from all the different nations, Japan was the
one to develop this style, with people with different eye/hair colors.
What amazes me the most, is that the Japanese have only a tipe of eye/hair
color, but they enjoy drawing characters of 'different nationalities'
(ohh, this doesn't sound right).
Cheers.
Jesse Kindwall
In article <4t9ga4$i...@qualcomm.com>,
Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu> writes:
>American art all looks the same. Almost all. The exceptions are
>far and few between. Manga, everything looks different, much
>different. Granted, its B&W, but its better nonetheless.
Interesting. Many people would say the exact same thing the other way
aruond. I, personally, collect both american comics and manga, and I see
a lot variety in the art of both. I happen to prefer the manga style, but
that's just MHO.
>The manga that Viz, Dark Horse, and other US companies translates is
>o1nly a very small subset of the market. To get a real feeling you
>have to look at the rest.
Very true. However, it seems to me that generalizations like the above
only show ignorance. I've heard many people that have had little exposure
to anime and manga say that the art all looks the same, yet most of us
know that's not true even looking at the very limited amount of translated
material available in the US. The same can be said about some forms of
music. On the surface, punk bands like Bad Religion and the Ramones sound
pretty much the same in all of their songs. However, if you listen to
them enough, it doesn't seem that way at all.
>---
>HC/LDD
>
So, Hagbard, how's Howard doing these days? :)
I'm in the middle of the book, so when I saw your name, I had to say
something.
Hail Eris!
--
-------------------=THE JESSTER: MASTER SMART ASS-TER=--------------------
-= Have a quote, or five: =-
-="I could never be a woman. I'd just sit at home and play with my =-
-= breasts all day." -Steve Martin =-
-="I'm an instant spring and ramen with no fish cake, the bluish-green =-
-= thunder, a twelve-year-old teacher, martial arts babysitting. =-
-= I am Incomplete." -Bad Religion 1/2 =-
-="Commander, have you been discharging ammunition again without my =-
-= approval?" -Battia Bureitin Rou =-
-="I'd never be a member of any organization who's symbol is a man =-
-= nailed to two pieces of wood... especially if it's me." =-
-= -George Carlin (Interview With Jesus) =-
-="The glass is not half empty or half full. It's too big." -me =-
-----------------------------=Surely I jest=------------------------------
Hagbard Celine
>Hardly.
Context. This is a manga group. People here read this group (mostly)
b'cos they like manga. What kind of responses do you think he was
expecting?
>
>Saying that American artists are indistinguishable from each other is
>completely wrong. Certainly, there are American superhero artists who
>work in virtually indistinguishable styles, but the superhero market
>is hardly the entire industry. The style of, say, Humberto Ramos on
>IMPULSE feels completely different from the artwork of Paul Ryan on
>FANTASTIC FOUR. Furthermore, compare the artwork on such titles as
>BIZARRE HEROES, WOLFF & BYRD, CEREBUS, TALES FROM THE BOG, HELLBOY,
>and TUG & BUSTER. You're severly underestimating the diversity of
>American comics and severly overestimating the diversity of Japanese
>comics. In terms of diversity, they're just about equal.
Okay, I was basing it on my own experience. I walk into a typical US
comic store. I go to the section labelled "new releases". I start
picking books (at random), glancing through them. All colour. All
rather dry language (I'm yet to see a US book where they get the slang,
explicatives, and cussing right. The punks just don't sound like real
punks, I find it real annoying.) Almost all approved by some kind of
"Comics Code". A lot of the lettering, art, panel layout, etc. looks
the same. Never do I see comments in the margins, things drawn around
the frames, etc. All the women wear very little, and they all have
rather exagerated, err... features. I've seen very few realistic portay-
als. The guy who owns the shop eventually bugs me, tells me its bad
manners to look through stuff w/o having an intention to buy. If I
look hard enough I can find some graphic novel that looks good,
"Sandman" or something, but its quite expensive. We'll, I have to get a
Pinky and the Brain book (only current US comic I do read) so I get that
and bail.
In a Kinokuniya I walk in, go to the new section, and the variety of
stuff they have is just amazing. Sadly, some stores bag their books,
but others don't. The language seems real. The art is much differnent,
many different genres, from "Ultra-cute" (anything by Neboke Neko) to
"realistic" (Sanctuary). Some manga are supposedly totally realistic,
like the shoujo schoolgirl growing-up stories, Seito Shokun or something,
others are totally fantasy, CLAMP's RG Veda. There's no real "comics
code", and comics don't have to be approved before being offered to the
general public. Often times, the authors use the sides of the frames
to write personal comments, or to tell about themselves and how their
lives are going. Much more personal. And much less a strain on one's
pocketbook, manga is 370Y ($5.50 or so at the exchange rate these shops
have) for a book having 5-8 chapters, each chapter 20-30 pgs (mostly)
long. US comics are more like $1.75 to $3.75+ for a single 30 pgs. or
so.
And that's why I insist its no contest.
>Says you. Crosshatching may be the best way to express certain moods
>where zip-tone is too slick. It's certainly a lot easier to convey a
>nervous, edgy feel with crosshatching than zip-tone. If MAUS had used
>tone instead of crosshatching, it would have been a completely
>different read.
MAUS is really an outpoint of the US comics style. If I go into a
comic store, ask the dealer "do you know about this?", he gives me a
strange look, and asks "what?" And I think Yuzo Takada and a few authors
do use cross-hatching (he used it in 3x3 eyes a little), but overall
its rather rare, they tend to just use different "gray" tones if at all.
>
>I can never be sure how much of this is sarcasm or not... He draws
>SPAWN. Or, he ostensibly draws SPAWN. He hasn't put a pencil to paper
>in a loong time...
Honest, not sarcasm. I've glanced at US comics recently and tend to
remember things that stand out or that I liked, that wasn't one of them.
I always at least try to have an open mind and thumb through a few
things, there's always a chance something good might come out once in a
while.
>
>It's just as commercialized in Japan, really. Most American comics
>don't get TV shows, toy tie-ins, etc. In fact, I'd have to say more
>Japanese comics get commercialized than American comics.
I was refering to the process of designing a book. Here its just up
to the author. You don't think up a story, then hire someone to draw
it for you, hire someone else to think up dialogue, hire someone else
as a graphics designer, etc. Author does the whole thing, then sends
it in. Authors who do have assistants or work in groups are an
exception. Bad thing is there is a lot of pressure, lots of authors
can't take the pressure, deadlines, and such, instead go into doujinshi,
which I believe are mostly self-marketted.
Yes, though, overall when 30% of all books sales are manga, of course
its going to be commercialized.
>
>The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
>it out.
I keep trying...
You mentioned MAUS, I have that from long ago (my mother saw it in an
actual bookstore and got it), any other suggestions? I'm more intrested
in interaction, down-to-earth stuff, rather than shoot-em-ups or combat.
---
Hagbard Celine / LDD
David Boeren
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much yet is the release style
and intended reading style.
American comics come out once a month, and you are expected to look at
each frame for a long time. So, they have a ton of time to draw each frame
due to the slow release schedule, and so they color them and do all this
extra stuff.
Manga come out often once a week, and you are expected to only spend a few
seconds looking at each frame.
One frame in an american comic will often correspond to 4-5 frames in a
manga. This is one problem with companies like Viz insisting on releasing
their translated titles in the same format as an american comic, you end
up only getting a teeny tiny slice of story in each volume. Then you have
to wait a month to get another teeny tiny slice. Also, 2 comics (64 pages)
costs almost as much as a whole volume of manga (200 pages or so), even AFTER
the price hikes caused by importing. If you could buy manga at the real
price, then it would be even more severe a comparison.
David Gabriel White
Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
> What?! Name one artist of ANY sort who is more technically skillful
> than McFarlane. As far as I know, there aren't any!
Gil Kane. Gene Colan. Jerry Ordoway. Charles Vess. Mike Mignola. Alex
Toth. Dozens of others...
McFarlane may be many things, but technically skillful isn't one of
them. From an anatomy point of view, his artwork is actually downright
wretched
That's not to say that perfect anatomy is desirable. Certainly it
makes for much duller artwork.
David Gabriel White
ha...@gol.com (Shawn Hagen) writes:
> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
> >to their american counterparts?
> strories just were not all that amzing. In the superhero genre they
> were often repetative, unending and ultimately boring. A lot of the
> art was nice but in the end that just wasn't enough.
Again, superhero comics aren't the entire industry.
> >Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
> >methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
> >can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
> Don't know, can't remember what McFarlane did, but I think there
> is a lot of nice art out there. Sometimes I feel that the Japanese
> artists don't need all the extra stuff, that they produce beauty with
> a mimalist approach. Black line, white paper. Ever seen some of the, I
> think it is called, "Iron line" drawings, bhuddist stuff. These
> artists could do so much with just a simple line.
Comparing various techniques is actually pretty pointless in certain
cases. There have been Americans with exquisite pencil techniques, ink
techniques, and even color techniques. But working in color is quite a
different experience from working in black & white, and the experience
is quite different depending on what sort of coloring you're using
(try computer-coloring a Kirby comic -- it'd probably look like crap).
> And I feel that one of the best visual artistis I have ever come
> across is Narumi Kakinouchi who uses her art to expand character at
> the same time she uses it to illistrate the strory and know that what
> you don't draw can show as much if not more than what you draw.
A similar case could be made for Mike Mignola and HELLBOY.
David Gabriel White
MegaPlayboy <az...@lafn.org> writes:
> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> > The Americans tend to specialize, while the Japanese do everything
> > themselves. Also, the Japanese tend to have weekly/biweekly deadlines,
> > compared to a monthly/bimonthly one. There are some Japanese manga
> > put out by partners who split the drawing and story, while I can't
> > really think of any Americans who do everything (maybe Ben Dunn?).
> Well, there's Scott McCloud, creator of ZOT!... Will Eisner (Bone)...
> Art Speigelman (Maus)...
Don Simpson, Jeff Smith, Fred Perry, Jay Stephens, Matt Howarth, Evan
Dorkin, Rick Veitch, Mark Hempel... The list goes on and on.
Besides, it's not like the Japanese creators are really working alone.
Many of them have hordes of assistants. Though there's nothing
intrinsically wrong about two people working together. In fact, I'd
say most of the truly interesting comics have developed from
partnerships rather than a singular vision.
so...@fred.net
: I'm still waiting for Shirow Masamune to stop drawing females with D-F cup
: breasts... =)
: Junta-kun
This is what bugs me in manga/anime. I don't know why Shirow always _has_
to draw cute females. And does anybody know why he is such a recluse?
David Gabriel White
Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu> writes:
> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> >What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
> >to their american counterparts?
>
Hardly.
> American art all looks the same. Almost all. The exceptions are
> far and few between. Manga, everything looks different, much
> different. Granted, its B&W, but its better nonetheless.
Saying that American artists are indistinguishable from each other is
completely wrong. Certainly, there are American superhero artists who
work in virtually indistinguishable styles, but the superhero market
is hardly the entire industry. The style of, say, Humberto Ramos on
IMPULSE feels completely different from the artwork of Paul Ryan on
FANTASTIC FOUR. Furthermore, compare the artwork on such titles as
BIZARRE HEROES, WOLFF & BYRD, CEREBUS, TALES FROM THE BOG, HELLBOY,
and TUG & BUSTER. You're severly underestimating the diversity of
American comics and severly overestimating the diversity of Japanese
comics. In terms of diversity, they're just about equal.
> >While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
> >lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
> >never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
> >Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
> Cross hatch shading is ugly.
Says you. Crosshatching may be the best way to express certain moods
where zip-tone is too slick. It's certainly a lot easier to convey a
nervous, edgy feel with crosshatching than zip-tone. If MAUS had used
tone instead of crosshatching, it would have been a completely
different read.
> >Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
> >methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
> >can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
> Who's Todd McFarlane? Wasn't he an insurance salesman or something?
I can never be sure how much of this is sarcasm or not... He draws
SPAWN. Or, he ostensibly draws SPAWN. He hasn't put a pencil to paper
in a loong time...
> >I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
> >does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
> >in America...
> Yeah, mostly single artists, very few groups like CLAMP and such.
> Here its rather commercialized.
It's just as commercialized in Japan, really. Most American comics
don't get TV shows, toy tie-ins, etc. In fact, I'd have to say more
Japanese comics get commercialized than American comics.
> >Any thoughts?
> The manga that Viz, Dark Horse, and other US companies translates is
> o1nly a very small subset of the market. To get a real feeling you
> have to look at the rest.
The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
it out.
DAVE WHITE, dw...@andrew.cmu.edu, http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/dw4e
A Raja
Subject: Re: Comparing Japanese and American "comic/manga" art
Newsgroups: rec.arts.manga
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Martin Bennett (plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: Just a little query here...
:
: What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
: to their american counterparts?
:
: IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
: their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
: that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
:
: While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
: lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
: never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
: Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
:
: Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
: methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
: can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
:
: I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
: does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
: in America...
:
: Any thoughts?
I believe the primary reason for this is because, in most Japanese manga,
it is done in Black&White, whereas most American comix are done in full
color. And a lot of the american art styles do use things like cross
hatching and stuff a lot more than Japanese, but in B&W, cross hatching,
etc.. tends to be more distracting than beneficial. This isn't
necessarily focussed on Japanese artists, pretty much all B&W artists use
simple line drawings..
Personally, I've found that Japanese line art is a lot better quality than
most (but not all) American line art, because where the Americans have the
color to back their pictures up, the Japanese usually depend on the line
art alone..
Johnathan Walde
Just putting in my 2c worth.
s20...@cratos.keyanoc.ab.ca
Lee Randall
In <4tbikv$f...@qualcomm.com> Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu>
writes:
>You mentioned MAUS, I have that from long ago (my mother saw it in an
>actual bookstore and got it), any other suggestions? I'm more
intrested
>in interaction, down-to-earth stuff, rather than shoot-em-ups or
combat.
Short list:
Stuck Rubber Baby by Howard Cruse
Jar of Fools by Jason Lutes
Why I Hate Saturn by Kyle Baker
Our Cancer Year by Joyce Brabner and Harvey Pekar
To the Heart of the Storm or anything else by Will Eisner
Bone by Jeff Smith
Hepcats by Martin Wagner
Sandman by Neil Gaiman et al.
Violent Cases, Signal to Noise, and Mr. Punch by Gaiman/McKean
Watchmen by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons
Cerebus by Dave Sim and Gerhard (skip volume 1)
Fax from Sarajevo by Joe Kubert (forthcoming)
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud (must-read for any manga or
American comics fan
All these titles are available in handy trade paperbacks and give a
quick spectrum of *good* American comics (though some are by
Brits). Here's just a few montlies/bimonthlies/quarterlies:
Astro City
Akiko
Berlin
Book of Ballads and Sagas by Charles Vess
JIM (as far from Image-- or anything else-- as it gets IMO)
Thieves and Kings
Wandering Star
It sounds like you've experienced a crappy comics store that stocks
mostly poorly executed mainstream superhero comics and doesn't treat
its customers nicely. I'd try a different one with wider selection to
find some of these books.
Please do try some of them out. Manga and American comics both have
tons of crap and some really, really good stuff. It's just a matter of
knowing where to look.
Bill
Borgman Eiji
On Jul 25, 1996 10:44:44 in article <Comparing Japanese and American
"comic/manga" art>, 'Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>' wrote:
>Just a little query here...
>
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
Japanese manga is simple, expressionate, an have good stories.
>IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>
>While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
>lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
First of all, there is no such thing as the refined style. If there was,
everyone would be a Van Goh, da Vince, or Raphael. All artist have
their OWN refined style. One style always differ in another.
>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
I can't think that Todd McFarlane can be mentioned in the same
breath as Leonardo da Vince.
>I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
I agree, but is doesn't hurt that American comicbook artists learn
other art mediums. Be like Mikimoto. Now there's a man who works
in multiple mediums. Also I'll probably bet that half of American
comicbook artists do not have any formal art education, if the case
may be.
All in all, manga...good art...good story
Comicbooks...tired of them...repetitous stories.
That's probably why many American comicbook artists try to copy
the manga style. Some succeed, but the story sucks!
Martin Bennett
My oroginal post seems to have mislead everyone... It's my
fault. What I was on about was the difference in style and
emphasis between american and japanese styles of comic art.
I was not for one second suggesting that american arts was
BETTER as I do not think that is the case.
While american characters look cool with all their huge
muscles and disproportionatly large breasts (Why don't they
fall over more?), a manga style face can express moer emotion
than an american could in a entire issue. (or more).
My point was that american comics are (in general), more art
driven than the japanese, which are story driven. Having read
comics (of various kinds) for about eight years, and having
gone through the Marvel, DC, Image (fancy art) phase and
graduated to manga (let's have a story) phase, I was merely
trying to provoke a discussion on the differences and compar-
itive merits of the two styles and what they mean for their
respective cultures.
As for those who do like McFarlane... Well... Let's agree to
disagree. While I have *ENORMOUS* respect for Jack Kirby and
his achievements, I don't think his art was ever anywhere
near as pleasing to the eye as McFarlane is. And while there
are a lot of great artist out there (Frank Miller et al), I
don't think any of them have garnered attention wuite like
McFarlane (even if he can't write a story to save himself).
For proof, take a look at Amazing Spiderman 298-321 and
Spiderman 1-17. And whoever said that body proportin in comics
matters is a fool! Just look at Jim Lee! Cool art...but the
body shapes are rediculous!
Enrique Conty
In article <4tb5k8$f...@news.fred.net> so...@fred.net () writes:
>
>I don't know why Shirow always _has_ to draw cute females.
Because he likes them and because they sell.
>And does anybody know why he is such a recluse?
Drawing manga is not his dayjob. I guess the last thing
he wants is otaku pestering him at work... ^_^;
Peter Choi
In <4tb5k8$f...@news.fred.net> so...@fred.net () writes:
>
>: I'm still waiting for Shirow Masamune to stop drawing females with
D-F cup
>: breasts... =)
>
>: Junta-kun
>
_has_
>to draw cute females. And does anybody know why he is such a recluse?
>
How large is D-F cup?(in innocent child's voice...)
Hmm, I draw triple-E.
Peter Choi
>In a Kinokuniya I walk in, go to the new section, and the variety of
>stuff they have is just amazing. Sadly, some stores bag their books,
>but others don't. The language seems real. The art is much
differnent,
Kinokuniya? In where? I go to a branch in Yahoan store. And where can
I find another Japanese bookstore in San Jose? (I live in Cupertino.)
>many different genres, from "Ultra-cute" (anything by Neboke Neko) to
>"realistic" (Sanctuary). Some manga are supposedly totally realistic,
>like the shoujo schoolgirl growing-up stories, Seito Shokun or
something,
>others are totally fantasy, CLAMP's RG Veda. There's no real "comics
>code", and comics don't have to be approved before being offered to
the
>general public.
Many of mangas are crossover of reality and fantasy or ultra-cute.
Lots of cute scenes are used in funny scenes which I never have seen in
American steriod comics. ^_^
Yeah, mangas are more effective in expressing characters' emotions.
But why can't steroids express those feeling effectively?
My another thought is about atmosphere. Mangas are mostly pleasant.
But steroids are always dark, gaudy and something. Steroid heroes are
always making wry faces maybe because they want to be looked as tough
as they can be. I heard that American teenagers like those TOUGH
things. Well, now I understand why they are so rude and tough.
Well, I wanna add this. American comics are evil-looking I think.
Especially those steroid thing that you will know (like X-men or
Spawn). Mangas are more neat and trimmed. I love it. (Ugh, Gunmn is one
of those exceptions. But I love it because it is dramatic.)
Someone says (In the book "How to draw in Marvel ways") super steroid
beefcakes are dramatic themselves. Do you agree this?! Ewwwww~! I can't
understand those American taste!
> Often times, the authors use the sides of the frames
>to write personal comments, or to tell about themselves and how their
>lives are going. Much more personal. And much less a strain on one's
>pocketbook, manga is 370Y ($5.50 or so at the exchange rate these
shops
>have) for a book having 5-8 chapters, each chapter 20-30 pgs (mostly)
>long. US comics are more like $1.75 to $3.75+ for a single 30 pgs. or
>so.
>
>And that's why I insist its no contest.
>MAUS is really an outpoint of the US comics style. If I go into a
>comic store, ask the dealer "do you know about this?", he gives me a
>strange look, and asks "what?" And I think Yuzo Takada and a few
authors
>do use cross-hatching (he used it in 3x3 eyes a little), but overall
>its rather rare, they tend to just use different "gray" tones if at
all.
>Honest, not sarcasm. I've glanced at US comics recently and tend to
>remember things that stand out or that I liked, that wasn't one of
them.
>
>I always at least try to have an open mind and thumb through a few
>things, there's always a chance something good might come out once in
a
>while.
>I was refering to the process of designing a book. Here its just up
>to the author. You don't think up a story, then hire someone to draw
>it for you, hire someone else to think up dialogue, hire someone else
>as a graphics designer, etc. Author does the whole thing, then sends
>it in. Authors who do have assistants or work in groups are an
>exception. Bad thing is there is a lot of pressure, lots of authors
>can't take the pressure, deadlines, and such, instead go into
doujinshi,
>which I believe are mostly self-marketted.
>
>Yes, though, overall when 30% of all books sales are manga, of course
>its going to be commercialized.
>I keep trying...
>
>You mentioned MAUS, I have that from long ago (my mother saw it in an
>actual bookstore and got it), any other suggestions? I'm more
intrested
>in interaction, down-to-earth stuff, rather than shoot-em-ups or
combat.
>---
>Hagbard Celine / LDD
>
Maus? It's an art comic. Can't be compared with many mundane thing I
like or dislike. I'm not interested in those artistic comics, but I
admit that those are very good.
I suggest we should discuss about just mangas and newsstand comics,
not art comics. Real art comics that not so profit driven are hardly
compared with other counterparts. Let's not say those works.
And I have a question. Don't American comic book artist feel jealous
to Japanese artists?! Japanese manga art is more superior I think.
And...finally if I draw mangas, not comics can I survive in America?!
I draw in manga style. And I wanna be. Sadly I came here just 4 months
ago and I cannot find the information how to be a comic artist even in
libraries!
Peter Choi
In <4tdjuc$5...@trotsky.cig.mot.com> co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty)
writes:
>In article <4tb5k8$f...@news.fred.net> so...@fred.net () writes:
>>
>>I don't know why Shirow always _has_ to draw cute females.
>
>
>
>he wants is otaku pestering him at work... ^_^;
>--
Peter Choi
In <0lyCGH200...@andrew.cmu.edu> David Gabriel White
<dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu> writes:
>> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>> >to their american counterparts?
>>
>
>Hardly.
Manga wins!
>
>> American art all looks the same. Almost all. The exceptions are
>> far and few between. Manga, everything looks different, much
>> different. Granted, its B&W, but its better nonetheless.
>
>Saying that American artists are indistinguishable from each other is
>completely wrong. Certainly, there are American superhero artists who
>work in virtually indistinguishable styles, but the superhero market
>is hardly the entire industry. The style of, say, Humberto Ramos on
>IMPULSE feels completely different from the artwork of Paul Ryan on
>FANTASTIC FOUR. Furthermore, compare the artwork on such titles as
>BIZARRE HEROES, WOLFF & BYRD, CEREBUS, TALES FROM THE BOG, HELLBOY,
>and TUG & BUSTER. You're severly underestimating the diversity of
>American comics and severly overestimating the diversity of Japanese
>comics. In terms of diversity, they're just about equal.
>
>> >While the japanese style is simple and effective, I feel that it
>> >lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
>> >never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>> >Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>> Cross hatch shading is ugly.
>
>Says you. Crosshatching may be the best way to express certain moods
>where zip-tone is too slick. It's certainly a lot easier to convey a
>nervous, edgy feel with crosshatching than zip-tone. If MAUS had used
>tone instead of crosshatching, it would have been a completely
>different read.
>
>> >Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>> >methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>> >can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>> Who's Todd McFarlane? Wasn't he an insurance salesman or something?
>
>I can never be sure how much of this is sarcasm or not... He draws
>SPAWN. Or, he ostensibly draws SPAWN. He hasn't put a pencil to paper
>in a loong time...
>
>> >I guess the difference is in the creative process where the artist
>> >does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>> >in America...
>> Yeah, mostly single artists, very few groups like CLAMP and such.
>> Here its rather commercialized.
>
>It's just as commercialized in Japan, really. Most American comics
>don't get TV shows, toy tie-ins, etc. In fact, I'd have to say more
>Japanese comics get commercialized than American comics.
>
>> >Any thoughts?
>> The manga that Viz, Dark Horse, and other US companies translates is
>> o1nly a very small subset of the market. To get a real feeling you
>> have to look at the rest.
>
>The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
>it out.
>
I darely say Japanese arts are beautifulllll!
Peter Choi
In <4tb5bt$f...@news.fred.net> so...@fred.net () writes:
>
>: I should also mention the passion for telling the story. Naoko
>: Takeuchi (Sailor Moon's artist), from the what I read from the
>: numerous translations of the end notes she puts in her books
>: LOVES her work. She likes her fans and they like her. Now Todd
>: McFarlane (I'm 80% sure of)
Ehh, who is he?!
is only in this for the money. The
>: man has toy companies and movie deals up the wazoo. Takeuchi-san
>: also has toy and anime deals but she doesn't come off like a jerk
>: or a hypocrite. Alot of american artists and companies come off as
>: being mean and selfish. Marvel doesn't care. Dark Horse doesn't
>: care (ie Its' many movie deals and leading people on as if they like
>: them). Frank Miller, I assume doesn't give a crap about the black
>: people he writes about in Martha Washington. I assume there are
>: jerk manga artists but the good ones, in artistic ability and
kindness
>: stand out.
>:
>: John Hollins
>
Ahh, I wish manga rules American comicbook industry!
>Right. I can quickly give another name: Takahashi Rumiko, loves her
>characters, and she doesn't want to hurt its fans by writing something
>stupid.
Hmm, I heard that she doesn't like Ranma 1/2 and the characters very
much. In my knowledge, she prefers Maison Ikkoku and mermaid seriese.
>And posting to the original person, I think that what differentiates
>American comics form manga is simply style. And I could write a book,
>because this word says it all.
>Briefly: Manga artists are not lazy, and don't use stinky guest
pencillers
>every 2 issues. They write their own stories, which many American
artists
>don't.
>Another thing that made me like Anime/Manga, is the realistic
development
>of the story. Sometimes, the author/director puts moral aspects in
>he/she's work to try to make out certain points. (EX. Ghost in the
Shell,
>Wings of Honneamise, Patlabor 2)etc. Even Sailor Moon delivers a
certain
>message.
I'm afraid the taste of many comicbook readers are those of rednecks.
I don't think many American can understand those dead serious anime.
They may prefer GIJOE damnit.
>I also read, from an interview with Mrs. Takahashi, that what she
wants
>people to see from her works, is that is not nice to be mean to
others. I
>admire her for that.
>Other things in Manga/Anime, are the cool drawn faces and bodies. I
don't
>mean cute faces, I mean faces that are more realistic. Japanese
artists
>spend time drawing the faces well, so they look nice. Didn't you all
see
>in cartoons like X-Men, how the faces appear to sometimes be ugly,
because
>the nose, or mouth has been drawn differently.
>And most of all, anime/manga is animation/comics for older persons. I
>enjoy animated characters more than live actors, and anime is a great
way
>to go into.
>
>In closing I'd like to ask a question too, ^_^.
>
>I was always wondering, how, from all the different nations, Japan was
the
>one to develop this style, with people with different eye/hair colors.
Ahh! You forgot or doesn't know about Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong!
Korean styles are very similar to those of Japan, but still goofy.
Taiwan comics are very similar to japan manga! I read Lizard Man which
is very sukebe.
And Hong-Kong version of Street Fighter II. Do you know this? I like
the art of Dragon Man by KU FOOK LUNG(sp and pronounciation?)
>What amazes me the most, is that the Japanese have only a tipe of
eye/hair
>color, but they enjoy drawing characters of 'different nationalities'
>(ohh, this doesn't sound right).
>
>Cheers.
>
Nope, nope. Try to look for those Korean, Taiwan, and Hong Kong
comics.
Peter Choi
>
>
>Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much yet is the release style
>and intended reading style.
>
>American comics come out once a month, and you are expected to look at
>each frame for a long time. So, they have a ton of time to draw each
frame
>due to the slow release schedule, and so they color them and do all
this
>extra stuff.
Can't I draw a weekly comics?!
Peter Choi
In <0lyCKO200...@andrew.cmu.edu> David Gabriel White
<dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>MegaPlayboy <az...@lafn.org> writes:
>> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>> > The Americans tend to specialize, while the Japanese do everything
>> > themselves. Also, the Japanese tend to have weekly/biweekly
deadlines,
>> > compared to a monthly/bimonthly one. There are some Japanese manga
>> > put out by partners who split the drawing and story, while I can't
>> > really think of any Americans who do everything (maybe Ben Dunn?).
>
>> Well, there's Scott McCloud, creator of ZOT!... Will Eisner
(Bone)...
>> Art Speigelman (Maus)...
>
>Don Simpson, Jeff Smith, Fred Perry, Jay Stephens, Matt Howarth, Evan
>Dorkin, Rick Veitch, Mark Hempel... The list goes on and on.
>
>Besides, it's not like the Japanese creators are really working alone.
>Many of them have hordes of assistants. Though there's nothing
>intrinsically wrong about two people working together. In fact, I'd
>say most of the truly interesting comics have developed from
>partnerships rather than a singular vision.
>
Koreans too.
And why the hell don't Americans try Japanese style and design?! Hmm,
chapstick polishes finger skills, so Japanese can draw better than
American. Hey, wanna draw comics? Use chapstics instead fork and knife.
Shawn Hagen
David Gabriel White <dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Saying that American artists are indistinguishable from each other is
>completely wrong. Certainly, there are American superhero artists who
>work in virtually indistinguishable styles, but the superhero market
>is hardly the entire industry.
True, but if you went up to the average North American and said,
name five comic books, what do you think they would say?
Since I have not tried this experiement I can't say with a hundred
percent certainty, or any certainty, but will hypothesize that they
will mention super hero type comics, and probably stuff like the
Archies.
So, if we are talking about the North American comic industry it
is understandable, if unfair, to group everything under the Superhero
comic genre.
> In terms of diversity, they're just about equal.
Not sure if I would agree with that. There is simply a lot more
manga out there and it is much more diverse. Of course this comes from
all the sports manga and cooking manga, etc.
> Most American comics
>don't get TV shows, toy tie-ins, etc.
Most don't deserve them. And the few that do get them of course are
the super hero stuff. And the TV shows created from them tend to be on
the bad side.
> In fact, I'd have to say more
>Japanese comics get commercialized than American comics.
Yep, but are we talking about what commercialization or
differences in style?
>The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
>it out.
Yea, that is true, but the superhero stuff dominates the market
for the most part and I think that keeps it from, I don't know,
reaching a maturity level, that one can find in a lot more Japanese
work than in NA work, IMHO.
There is good work on both sides but I think there is more of it
in Japan, if only becasue there is a lot more mang released. Of course
I wonder what would happen if we compared percentages?
"We're here in the Engineering section of the USS Enterprise.
We have replaced the fine Dilithium crystals they usally use
with folgers crystals. Let's see what happens."
Shawn Hagen <ha...@gol.com> Author of a lot of BGC stuff.
Martin Bennett
az...@lafn.org (Momonari Junta, the MegaPlayboy) wrote:
>Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>
<SNIPENTIREPOST>
>
>>P-word (ZERO)
>
>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
> Ching! ZZZZ
> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ Ching!
> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ Ching!
> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
>
>Junta: Sorry... Been playing too much SFA2... <teehee>
> Sakura-chan dai suki!! =)
You can NEVER play SFZ2 too much! ;}
>
>
>----
>Junta-kun
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>"Chinese food that you get from the mall is more
>authentic than Dim Sum!? That's like saying
>Yoshinoya is authentic Japanese food!
>-Yours truly
>-----------------------------------------------------
>MegaPlayboy: az...@lafn.org
>
P-word.
Ming Yau So
In article <4taak5$h...@wiley.napanet.net> yhwh...@napanet.net (L'Enfant Prodigue) writes:
>Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>Granted, this has a lot to do with stylisation and different
>>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
> There are many many Japanese manga artists who are equal to Todd
>MacFarlane in that sense. The first that comes to mind is Kano
>Seisuke (I think that's how you pronounce his first name, Seisuke).
[ examples deleted ]
Actually, if you are looking for detailness, I would suggest try looking
at Kishiro Yukito's Gunnm (i.e. Viz published "Battle Angle Alita (sic)").
His drawing are really detail, especially on those combat scenes.
--
==============================================================================
Ming Yau So Internet: min...@netcom.com
AOL: Ming So
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ming Yau So
In article <0lyCGH200...@andrew.cmu.edu> David Gabriel White <dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu> writes:
...
>> Yeah, mostly single artists, very few groups like CLAMP and such.
>> Here its rather commercialized.
>
>don't get TV shows, toy tie-ins, etc. In fact, I'd have to say more
>Japanese comics get commercialized than American comics.
However, the American publishers put much more stricter controls/interferences
on the creativity process, and the Japanese publishers give more freedom
for the studios in creating the stories.
Ming Yau So
In article <4td1pq$m...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
...
>My point was that american comics are (in general), more art
>driven than the japanese, which are story driven. Having read
Well, I would re-phrase that to "American comics are more market driven than
Japanese comics". Generally speaking (for those top-sellers), it seems that,
for American comics, the publisher first decides which kind of genere/story/
plot would make the most money, then tailors a story to fit the template and
finds the artists to just fillin the pages, thus, majority of the comic books
become a manufacturing product. Whereas, in Japan, it seems that generally
it's the mangaka first comes up with some ideas to create a new story, then
writes and draws up some part of it, sends it to the publisher to see if they
are willing to publish it, if yes, the mangaka will go on and make up their
own stories (w/ modifications suggested by the readers and the publishers).
If you want an analogy, most of the US comics are like those "How-to" books,
which are created towards a well-defined market, where most of Japanese mangas
are like fictions (well, not those pulp fictions), which try to seek for the
readerships AFTER they have been published.
David Gabriel White
>>Saying that American artists are indistinguishable from each other is
>>completely wrong. Certainly, there are American superhero artists who
>>work in virtually indistinguishable styles, but the superhero market
>>is hardly the entire industry.
> True, but if you went up to the average North American and said,
> name five comic books, what do you think they would say?
>
> Since I have not tried this experiement I can't say with a hundred
> percent certainty, or any certainty, but will hypothesize that they
> will mention super hero type comics, and probably stuff like the
> Archies.
> So, if we are talking about the North American comic industry it
> is understandable, if unfair, to group everything under the Superhero
> comic genre.
Such a survey method is practically useless for gathering realistic
data. If a similar survey were conducted in Japan, would we have to
discard all genres other than martial arts slugfests and giant robot
battles?
Truly innovative work is rarely done in the mainstream in both America and
Japan. And the American alternative market is, I'd argue, equivalently
sized to the Japanese alternative market. Which either makes the
Japanese alternative market either disproportionately small or the
American alternative market huge.
> Not sure if I would agree with that. There is simply a lot more
> manga out there and it is much more diverse. Of course this comes from
> all the sports manga and cooking manga, etc.
Genres which no American would really be interested in. At the same
time, I don't recall ever seeing the true crime genre hit the big time
in Japan. The audiences have completely different tastes.
Basically, many of the Japanese genres aren't prevalent in America
because they are adequately covered by other sources (i.e., who needs
shojo manga when you've got an issue of "True Romance" magazine?).
>>The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
>>it out.
> Yea, that is true, but the superhero stuff dominates the market
> for the most part and I think that keeps it from, I don't know,
> reaching a maturity level, that one can find in a lot more Japanese
> work than in NA work, IMHO.
Actually, I'd say I find the maturity levels to be slightly higher in
American comics than in Japanese comics. On the other hand, neither
can hold a candle to European comics when it comes to overall maturity
level. Many Japanese comics substitute clubbing you over the head with
painfully obvious philosophy for actual maturity. When you come right
down to it, Japanese comics are every bit as infantile and pandering
as mainstream American comics.
Besides, sometimes maturity is the last thing you want in a comic.
Sometimes a good old-fashioned slugfest is what you're looking for,
other times you might be looking for some less-than-mature humor.
> There is good work on both sides but I think there is more of it
> in Japan, if only becasue there is a lot more mang released. Of course
> I wonder what would happen if we compared percentages?
Percentages come out thusly: more Japanese read comics, the Japanese
print more comics. You can't produce percentages for "good comics"
because you really can't objectively measure something that's
completely subjective. But remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything
is crap. So while this means that if the Japanese are producing more
quality comics, they're producing way more crap.
Furthermore, a large chunk of Japanese comics are simply not
exportable at all. Those who bemoan the inability of Japanese comics
to penetrate the American market or the inability of American comics
to invade the Japanese market must remember that American comics are
read throughout much of the Americas and Europe, while absolutely
no-one outside of Japan would never pick up a pachinko manga.
The average Japanese comics reader reads an entire issue of Shonen
Jump in about three or four minutes. I spend more time than that
reading a single 22-page story. Remember that reader expectations also
play a large part in determining quality. If I could read a 300 page
book in 3 minutes, I think I've just wasted my money. I like to linger
on things, and consequently I find most American comics more rewarding
than their Japanese counterparts.
To be honest, many of these issues have been covered quite elegantly
by Frederick Shodt in "Manga! Manga!" and the recent "Dreamland
Japan". Shodt, BTW, takes the balanced opinion that neither manga nor
American comics is inherently superior to the others. If you don't
have copies already, the books are well worth tracking down.
David Gabriel White
ph...@email.unc.edu (Phil Lee) writes:
[a lot snipped, but all great stuff anyway]
> The Japanese comic industry has a lot of advantages over the American
> industry. As mentioned above, there are a whole lot of comics to choose
> from. As far as I know, the Japanese have never had to deal with the
> equivilant of the American Comics Code, which basically crippled the
> growth and wide-spread populariity of the American comics market.
> Fortunatly, the American comics market has both matured and diversified
> quite a bit in recent years, and increased interest in self-publishing
> allows almost anyone who wants to put out a comic badly enough to do so
> and have a good chance to reach a fairly wide audience. Finally,
> remember that the widespread popularity of manga in Japan is due largely
> in part to Osamu Tezuka, a man who was greatly influenced by American
> animation, expecially Disney. Which shows that both the Japanese and the
> Americans stand to learn a lot from each other when it comes to comics.
This entire post is easily the most cogent, calm and rational one I've
seen in this thread since it's started. And, I'd argue, 100% accurate.
Ross TenEyck
SAIN-ZEE UENG <sain...@cory.eecs.berkeley.edu> writes:
>Martin Bennett wrote:
>>
>> Just a little query here...
>>
>> What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>> to their american counterparts?
>I think the reason you feal that the Japanese manga have a lower level
>of art is because they are mostly drawn in black and white, therefore
>having little shading to play with. Most of the color drawings are
So, how about if we compare Japanese manga, not to the four-color
monthly comics, but to the black-and-white daily strips? The dailies,
of course, have much less space to work with; however, they do cover a
much wider range of genres than the four-color comics (something that's
often cited as a virtue of manga over American comics.) Any thoughts?
--
============== http://weber.u.washington.edu/~teneyck/home.html ==============
Ross TenEyck MS Mech Eng | A crow pecks at the wind-tossed scrap of paper,
ten...@u.washington.edu | scavenging between the lines of an old letter;
Tsuki ni kawatte oshioki yo! | he hoards stories like flecks of quartz.
Hagbard Celine
shi...@ix.netcom.com(Peter Choi) wrote:
>>In a Kinokuniya I walk in, go to the new section, and the variety of
>>stuff they have is just amazing. Sadly, some stores bag their books,
>>but others don't. The language seems real. The art is much
>differnent,
>
> Kinokuniya? In where? I go to a branch in Yahoan store. And where can
>I find another Japanese bookstore in San Jose? (I live in Cupertino.)
They're almost always in branches of Yaohan. There's also a place called
"Nikaku Animart" on 6th street, but they are more focussed on Anime.
>
> My another thought is about atmosphere. Mangas are mostly pleasant.
Shinohara have very serious, dark styles, but its not at all like the
typical US notion of "horror" that people are used to.
>But steroids are always dark, gaudy and something. Steroid heroes are
>always making wry faces maybe because they want to be looked as tough
>as they can be. I heard that American teenagers like those TOUGH
>things. Well, now I understand why they are so rude and tough.
>
> Well, I wanna add this. American comics are evil-looking I think.
>Especially those steroid thing that you will know (like X-men or
>Spawn). Mangas are more neat and trimmed. I love it. (Ugh, Gunmn is one
>of those exceptions. But I love it because it is dramatic.)
We'll, this is one of those self-perpetuating things. If 75% of US
comics are drawn that way, then 75%+ of the so-called "good" or "popular"
comics will be that way, and then artists think that's good art and
that's how they have to draw (obviously) since 75%+ of the good comics
are like that. Every industry has some inertia, like compare art in a
typical manga 20 years ago to one current and you'll notice a much
different art style.
>
> Someone says (In the book "How to draw in Marvel ways") super steroid
>beefcakes are dramatic themselves. Do you agree this?! Ewwwww~! I can't
>understand those American taste!
My problem is that US comics seem like "a step back" from reality rather
than trying to be realistic, esp. when it comes to character
relationships and such.
>
> Maus? It's an art comic. Can't be compared with many mundane thing I
>like or dislike. I'm not interested in those artistic comics, but I
>admit that those are very good.
Isn't art art? Even the popular comics I still consider art, granted
there's a lot of bad art around but I think that's always been the case.
>
> I suggest we should discuss about just mangas and newsstand comics,
>not art comics. Real art comics that not so profit driven are hardly
>compared with other counterparts. Let's not say those works.
We'll, I remember what happened with super-man, that was a big story,
super-man dies, then if you kept up with super-man, now you have to buy
4 comics a week instead of 1, b'cos 4 "super-man"'s show up, each
supposedly the "real one" and so on... Manga (ie. Ranma) sometimes
does get dragged on way past the point its a non-repetitive story, but
I don't think the industry would go this low. They make enough money
off anime, dolls, calendars, posters, lunch boxes, cards, etc.
>
> And I have a question. Don't American comic book artist feel jealous
>to Japanese artists?! Japanese manga art is more superior I think.
Arguable. People believe what they want to, if I were an artist of
course I would think my own art was "quite good".
>
> And...finally if I draw mangas, not comics can I survive in America?!
>I draw in manga style. And I wanna be. Sadly I came here just 4 months
>ago and I cannot find the information how to be a comic artist even in
>libraries!
Most of the american-drawn manga-like comics I see seem either rather
pathetic (compared to real manga) or Hentai, but maybe there's a market
for well-drawn ones, I don't know. I can't draw very well, but I would
sometimes make comic strips out of my teachers and such on my HW. One
teacher got so offended at my portrayal of him he made me stop.
---
HC/LDD
Phil Lee
Gah. So far, a lot of the over-generalizations in this thread have been
painful to read. A few points:
Last I checked, "manga" meant "comic". Neither American or Japanese
comics are inherently better or worse. There are a lot of bad American
comics - likewise, there are a lot of bad Japanese comics. (Take Shonen
Jump for example - it may be the most popular comic in Japan, but it's
still mostly shit. In my humble opinion, of course.) And, vice versa -
There are many wonderful American comics being produced in all catagories
- color/b&w, self-published/work-for-hire, one artist/many, etc. Not all
US comics are about super-heroes. For that matter, a lot of the
super-hero comics are pretty damn good. So, please - no more arguments
over the superiority of one over the other.
Japan does not have a monopoly on comics written in a drawn-out narrative
style. (One of the best Western examples is Dave Sim's Cerebus.) Todd
McFarlane is not (thank god) the defining force in American comics.
(Influental, certainly - but by no means defining.) Not all American
comics are a) color and b) drawn by teams. (Look at a lot of the
independent/self-published comics for examples. Teri Wood's Wandering
Star, Terry Moore's Strangers in Paradise, and Dave Campbell's Bacchus
are all excellent examples.) Likewise not all Japanese artists work
independently - CLAMP comes to mind immediatly, and I'm sure there are
others. While both America and Japan have their own dominant styles and
techniques, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule. Hell, there
isn't a rule as far as I know.
Finally, keep Sturgeon's Law in mind at all times: 90% of everything is
shit. There are a lot of really horrible American comics. There are a
lot of really horrible Japanese comics. Since the Japanese publish a
helluva lot more comics than we do - last I heard, roughly 40% of all
printed publications in Japan were manga - the remaining 10% is a lot
larger in comparison to the American 10%. So, while we are privilaged
enough to see a lot of good manga, we're also lucky enough to avoid
having to put up with a lot of shit.
The Japanese comic industry has a lot of advantages over the American
industry. As mentioned above, there are a whole lot of comics to choose
from. As far as I know, the Japanese have never had to deal with the
equivilant of the American Comics Code, which basically crippled the
growth and wide-spread populariity of the American comics market.
Fortunatly, the American comics market has both matured and diversified
quite a bit in recent years, and increased interest in self-publishing
allows almost anyone who wants to put out a comic badly enough to do so
and have a good chance to reach a fairly wide audience. Finally,
remember that the widespread popularity of manga in Japan is due largely
in part to Osamu Tezuka, a man who was greatly influenced by American
animation, expecially Disney. Which shows that both the Japanese and the
Americans stand to learn a lot from each other when it comes to comics.
Phil
--
Phil Lee - ph...@email.unc.edu - http://sunsite.unc.edu/phil - FnordChan
"I do have a cause though. It's obscenity. I'm for it." - Tom Lehrer
SAIN-ZEE UENG
Martin Bennett wrote:
>
> Just a little query here...
>
> What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
> to their american counterparts?
>
> their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
> that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>
> lacks a lot of the detail and impact of the american style. I have
> never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
> Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
I think the reason you feal that the Japanese manga have a lower level
of art is because they are mostly drawn in black and white, therefore
having little shading to play with. Most of the color drawings are
either for anime, or posters, and are probably not as impressive as the
American ones. Recently, expecially the Kenshin posters, I feel the
posters are getting better. One big plus, in my opinion, is how action
is dealt with in the Japanese comics. Japanese manga tend to emphasize
continous motion, whereas American comics are like single shots, with
little continuity. Another complain I have w/ American comics are the
tremendous amounts of cross-overs. Story continuity gets jumbled beyond
recognition, and you have to read 4-5 strips just to understand what in
the world's going on. Finally, I think the fact that japanese manga
actually ends, sometimes, make the story lines much more enjoyable.
Sain-Zee Ueng
Hagbard Celine
ph...@email.unc.edu (Phil Lee) wrote:
>Gah. So far, a lot of the over-generalizations in this thread have been
>painful to read. A few points:
Eris! All Hail Eris!
>
>Last I checked, "manga" meant "comic". Neither American or Japanese
>comics are inherently better or worse. There are a lot of bad American
Since when was any viable choice "inherently better" and "inherently
worse" than any other viable choice? Everything has its benefits, yes,
but also at a cost. I'm sure many people can find fulfilment in US
comics. Just as some Religious Rightists find fulfilment in worshiping
the dark god.
>comics - likewise, there are a lot of bad Japanese comics. (Take Shonen
>Jump for example - it may be the most popular comic in Japan, but it's
>still mostly shit. In my humble opinion, of course.) And, vice versa -
No argument here. I never liked a single comic printed in that mag.
>There are many wonderful American comics being produced in all catagories
>- color/b&w, self-published/work-for-hire, one artist/many, etc. Not all
>US comics are about super-heroes. For that matter, a lot of the
>super-hero comics are pretty damn good. So, please - no more arguments
>over the superiority of one over the other.
Maybe there are. I was refering to the comics that were readily
avaliable in a typical comic shop. I tried a few. One dealer even had
the nerve to put Urusei Yatsura (Return of Lum) in the Adult section.
"It's got romance, and aliens. Yah, that's adult." So was Vampire Miyu
by Antarctic press. "It didn't have that 'comics code' stamp of approval."
>
>Japan does not have a monopoly on comics written in a drawn-out narrative
>style. (One of the best Western examples is Dave Sim's Cerebus.) Todd
Of course not. There's a minor language barrier, how could they have
a monopoly?! Most people can't even consider buying them, b'cos they
can't even read them.
>McFarlane is not (thank god) the defining force in American comics.
>(Influental, certainly - but by no means defining.) Not all American
>comics are a) color and b) drawn by teams. (Look at a lot of the
>independent/self-published comics for examples. Teri Wood's Wandering
Visibility? Where?
>independently - CLAMP comes to mind immediatly, and I'm sure there are
>others. While both America and Japan have their own dominant styles and
>techniques, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule. Hell, there
>isn't a rule as far as I know.
No, of course, there's always pleanty of exceptions.
Its just that with US comics, I feel its way past the critical point,
the 50% rule. Once more than 50% of something becomes the same genre,
its likely to stay that way. US comics started out as superheroes, and
they've always been superheroes. At least with manga you have a few
more genres, and no one alone accounts for 50% of sales, visibility,
display, money-making, etc. I can't stand mecha stuff, sure, but they're
not 50% of the visibilty/market. I can't stand superheroes either.
These "good" or "alternative" or "non-superhero" comics, most if I do
find them they're next to the manga section, in the adult section, or
so on. And of the dealers that don't carry them -- either
"We don't carry third-party stuff, its against store policy..."
"We had those once, but they didn't sell..."
etc. is the reason they don't have it, if they admit it at all.
Only reason I see Sandman and some others is b'cos they're done by the
DC Vertigo(?) line.
>Finally, keep Sturgeon's Law in mind at all times: 90% of everything is
>shit. There are a lot of really horrible American comics. There are a
Wait! I beg to differ! It's 95%+ Some industries its 99%! Look at modern
cults/religious groups for instance. They're even worse than 99%. Wanta join
the Bavarian Illuminati? Sure, go ahead...
>lot of really horrible Japanese comics. Since the Japanese publish a
>helluva lot more comics than we do - last I heard, roughly 40% of all
>printed publications in Japan were manga - the remaining 10% is a lot
>larger in comparison to the American 10%. So, while we are privilaged
Also consider how manga is sold in japan. That 30% doesn't include mags
that just sit on shelves. In Japan, you send back your unsold mags to
the company that made them and don't pay for them. In US, if you order
too many of an unpopular book, too bad. So dealers are very hesitant to
get all this stuff only a few people buy, the industry itself has a lot
of inertia.
>The Japanese comic industry has a lot of advantages over the American
>industry. As mentioned above, there are a whole lot of comics to choose
>from. As far as I know, the Japanese have never had to deal with the
>equivilant of the American Comics Code, which basically crippled the
What was this? I see this stamp on certain books.
Does this have anything to do with the language your characters can use?
I'm yet to see a US comic book like the street gangs talk like real
street gangs, where the soldiers talk like real soldiers, where the
thugs and punks talk like real thugs and punks, and where the
superheroes talk like me, I mean, like real superheroes.
>growth and wide-spread populariity of the American comics market.
>Fortunatly, the American comics market has both matured and diversified
>quite a bit in recent years, and increased interest in self-publishing
Yah, I noticed it went from 90%+ superheroes to about 75%-. It improve-
ing no doubt. A few years, I got sick of US comics, now I'll at least
glance through them. In a few more years I might be able to read them
again. Only US comic I read now is Dilbert.
>Americans stand to learn a lot from each other when it comes to comics.
Prob'ly.
---
Hagbard Celine / LDD
If you are offended by this message, then you have been blessed.
Congratulations! You can have the honor of feeding the "perpetual flame
machine" and help solve our energy crisis! Your bits. Our energy.
Hagbard Celine
>So, how about if we compare Japanese manga, not to the four-color
>monthly comics, but to the black-and-white daily strips? The dailies,
>of course, have much less space to work with; however, they do cover a
>much wider range of genres than the four-color comics (something that's
>often cited as a virtue of manga over American comics.) Any thoughts?
I like Dilbert. And almost all are color on Sunday anyway, not really
B&W.
---
HC/LDD
Hagbard Celine
>Japanese comics". Generally speaking (for those top-sellers), it seems that,
>for American comics, the publisher first decides which kind of genere/story/
>plot would make the most money, then tailors a story to fit the template and
>finds the artists to just fillin the pages, thus, majority of the comic books
>become a manufacturing product. Whereas, in Japan, it seems that generally
>it's the mangaka first comes up with some ideas to create a new story, then
>writes and draws up some part of it, sends it to the publisher to see if they
>are willing to publish it, if yes, the mangaka will go on and make up their
>own stories (w/ modifications suggested by the readers and the publishers).
Not all good. Some publishers drag on things much longer than they're meant to be,
like Ranma.
This is a good point. It's more like the US book market, the initiative is done
at the personal level. I feel this system puts out a lot more creative mangas,
esp. b'cos there's just so many publishers and stuff. On the popular american
market, like Marvel, DC, etc., I get the idea its mostly like you said. I haven't
experienced the "independent" market here that much so I can't comment on it, too
limited visibility.
---
HC/LDD
Peter Choi
>> Kinokuniya? In where? I go to a branch in Yahoan store. And where
can
>>I find another Japanese bookstore in San Jose? (I live in Cupertino.)
>If its in SJ right on Saratoga and a freeway then that's a Kinokuniya.
>They're almost always in branches of Yaohan. There's also a place
called
>"Nikaku Animart" on 6th street, but they are more focussed on Anime.
Hey! Today I went to find there but all I gained is just a headache!
Where the hell is there? I tried to find with my AAA map but there's no
use! Please let me know about the adress and exact location of "Nikaku
Animart", please!
L'Enfant Prodigue
shi...@ix.netcom.com(Peter Choi) wrote:
>>> Kinokuniya? In where? I go to a branch in Yahoan store. And where
>can
>>>I find another Japanese bookstore in San Jose? (I live in Cupertino.)
>>If its in SJ right on Saratoga and a freeway then that's a Kinokuniya.
>>They're almost always in branches of Yaohan. There's also a place
>called
>>"Nikaku Animart" on 6th street, but they are more focussed on Anime.
> Hey! Today I went to find there but all I gained is just a headache!
>Where the hell is there? I tried to find with my AAA map but there's no
>use! Please let me know about the adress and exact location of "Nikaku
>Animart", please!
Kinokuniya: stay on 280 till you hit Saratoga in SJ, go west for
about 2 blocks and you'll see a plaza. Kinokuniya is in there. Look
out for a Shell station right before you come to the plaza.
Nikaku is on 615 N. 6th St. in SJ. It is closed on Monday's.
Phil Lee
>: I should also mention the passion for telling the story. Naoko
>: Takeuchi (Sailor Moon's artist), from the what I read from the
>: numerous translations of the end notes she puts in her books
>: LOVES her work. She likes her fans and they like her. Now Todd
>: man has toy companies and movie deals up the wazoo. Takeuchi-san
>: also has toy and anime deals but she doesn't come off like a jerk
>: or a hypocrite. Alot of american artists and companies come off as
>: being mean and selfish. Marvel doesn't care. Dark Horse doesn't
>: care (ie Its' many movie deals and leading people on as if they like
>: them). Frank Miller, I assume doesn't give a crap about the black
>: people he writes about in Martha Washington. I assume there are
>: jerk manga artists but the good ones, in artistic ability and kindness
>: stand out.
Just to offer the flip side of things, you'll find a lot of American
artists working their ass off for something they love with little to no
compensation aside from the satisfaction of having people read their
creations. While a lot of the big companies could care less, there are a
growing number of self publishers making comics for the sheer love of it
- god knows they aren't getting anything else. While I'm sure many of
the Japanese creators are creating comics out of love, many American
creators are also. ^_^
Phil
>: John Hollins
L'Enfant Prodigue
> With your help, I could find there today. But I was too shocked that
>the shop is located in very creepy and spooky area. Do I need a
>bulletproof jacket and to arm with M60, M249, or AKMS to go there? :)
Spooky? I don't know what you're talking about. I couldn't score
half an ounce of crack or pick up a 50 year old oozing whore if I
were waving a hundred bucks on the corner. Now if you want to get a
hit there are places in SF I can show you...ahhh, nevermind that. On
the other hand, it's always nice to have couple of fully automatic
assaut rifles or proximity denotation device around, especially which
visiting relatives or going to the post office or the McDonald's down
on the corner of Jefferson and Lincoln. Bring a few extra clip to
finish off the crawling's, or a bat whichever.
> And... today, I bought a volume 1 of 17ANS, a somewhat H manga in
>Kinokuniya Yahoan store. Do you know about this and if you know about
>this what do you think about this? When I bought this manga, clerks(all
>young Japa
>nese females) giggiled.
Yo, did you hit on them? You never know you might score. By the way,
what's ANS; it ain't no some anus homo gay manga is it? haha.
> And, yes. I wanna ask another question. except for in Yahoan and
>creepy Nikaku, where can I find another manga/anime(or just Japanese)
>bookstore?
Kinokuniya in SF's Japantown. You can also find chinese edition of
Japanese manga in SF Chinatown.
Peter Choi
> Spooky? I don't know what you're talking about. I couldn't
score
>half an ounce of crack or pick up a 50 year old oozing whore if I
>were waving a hundred bucks on the corner. Now if you want to get a
>hit there are places in SF I can show you...ahhh, nevermind that. On
>the other hand, it's always nice to have couple of fully automatic
>assaut rifles or proximity denotation device around, especially which
>visiting relatives or going to the post office or the McDonald's down
>on the corner of Jefferson and Lincoln. Bring a few extra clip to
>finish off the crawling's, or a bat whichever.
>
Hey, I mean it! It was too old palce and I was too shocked! (Ugh, I
never left Cupertino for 5 months.)
>> And... today, I bought a volume 1 of 17ANS, a somewhat H manga in
>>Kinokuniya Yahoan store. Do you know about this and if you know
about
>>this what do you think about this? When I bought this manga,
clerks(all
>>young Japa
>>nese females) giggiled.
> Yo, did you hit on them? You never know you might score. By the
way,
>what's ANS; it ain't no some anus homo gay manga is it? haha.
>
Nope. Just another pretty ecchi manga with somewhat authentic looking
cute girls. Do you know about those mangas? Let me know, please. (Ah,
God will strike me with his thunderstrike....)
>> And, yes. I wanna ask another question. except for in Yahoan and
>>creepy Nikaku, where can I find another manga/anime(or just Japanese)
>>bookstore?
> Kinokuniya in SF's Japantown. You can also find chinese edition
of
>Japanese manga in SF Chinatown.
Ooops, I live in Cupertino and have freewayphobia.
Peter Choi
>
> Kinokuniya: stay on 280 till you hit Saratoga in SJ, go west for
>about 2 blocks and you'll see a plaza. Kinokuniya is in there. Look
>out for a Shell station right before you come to the plaza.
> Nikaku is on 615 N. 6th St. in SJ. It is closed on Monday's.
With your help, I could find there today. But I was too shocked that
the shop is located in very creepy and spooky area. Do I need a
bulletproof jacket and to arm with M60, M249, or AKMS to go there? :)
And... today, I bought a volume 1 of 17ANS, a somewhat H manga in
Kinokuniya Yahoan store. Do you know about this and if you know about
this what do you think about this? When I bought this manga, clerks(all
young Japa
nese females) giggiled.
And, yes. I wanna ask another question. except for in Yahoan and
creepy Nikaku, where can I find another manga/anime(or just Japanese)
bookstore?
Lee Randall
>Just to offer the flip side of things, you'll find a lot of American
>artists working their ass off for something they love with little to
no
>compensation aside from the satisfaction of having people read their
>creations. While a lot of the big companies could care less, there
are a
>growing number of self publishers making comics for the sheer love of
it
>- god knows they aren't getting anything else. While I'm sure many of
And when you consider that they're a niche within a niche within a tiny
niche of American comics readers, which means at best only a very, very
tiny number of people ever even hear of their comic, much less read it,
their love for the medium is very big indeed. Compare to the affluent
manga industry.
Bill
so...@fred.net
: Kinokuniya: stay on 280 till you hit Saratoga in SJ, go west for
: about 2 blocks and you'll see a plaza. Kinokuniya is in there. Look
: out for a Shell station right before you come to the plaza.
: Nikaku is on 615 N. 6th St. in SJ. It is closed on Monday's.
Are there any Kinokuniya stores located in Baltimore or Washington DC?
Shawn Hagen
David Gabriel White <dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Such a survey method is practically useless for gathering realistic
>data. If a similar survey were conducted in Japan, would we have to
>discard all genres other than martial arts slugfests and giant robot
>battles?
Nope, as long as you asked a proper population sample, made sure
no age groups was over represented, you would cover all the genres. I
mean, go into a manga store in Tokyo. actaully, sit outside of it.
Manga no Mori in Shijuku is nice, and watch the people who go in.
You'll see most age groups represented. Then go in and watch what they
buy. All genres will be piked up.
Having also done similar in Canada comic shops, well, age groups
tends to be a lot more narrower and what they buy mostly seems to be
superhero stuff. Maybe I was at the wrong comic stores but they seemed
pretty representative.
Oh, and after you have spent a day watching Manga no Mori go take
a walk through Kabuki Cho, but don't go into any of the bars.
>Genres which no American would really be interested in. At the same
>time, I don't recall ever seeing the true crime genre hit the big time
>in Japan. The audiences have completely different tastes.
Right now in Afternoon I am reading a nice bit of work called
Jiraishin. Cop story, dark, slick, and not people running around in
silly tights. Will it hit it big? Who knows. Does it matter?
>Actually, I'd say I find the maturity levels to be slightly higher in
>American comics than in Japanese comics.
Don't know. I've found some very mature work in Japan, extremely
well done. I have also found similar work in NA but it was stuff like
graphic novellezations of novles and independents.
Found imature stuff in both countries as well. All in all the
immature tuff in NA tended to insult my intelligence. The stuff in
Japan, more often than not, is fun.
Probably a matter of personal taste.
>The average Japanese comics reader reads an entire issue of Shonen
>Jump in about three or four minutes. I spend more time than that
>reading a single 22-page story.
I flip through the phone books pretty quickly too. Then I buy the
takuboun, or whatever they are called, because I can finally see the
art as it is supposed to be,and spend a lot more time on it. I use the
phone books to hunt down the stories I want and usually just flip
through them to see how the story is progressing without giving it a
very detailed reading.
> Shodt, BTW, takes the balanced opinion that neither manga nor
>American comics is inherently superior to the others.
I'd agree with that, but I still like the Japanese stuff better.
Personal opinions are such a wonderful thing.
Rubix
Martin Bennett wrote:
>
> My oroginal post seems to have mislead everyone... It's my
> fault. What I was on about was the difference in style and
> emphasis between american and japanese styles of comic art.
> I was not for one second suggesting that american arts was
> BETTER as I do not think that is the case.
> well, whatever you intention may have been, you seem to have started
something... 47 <or so> current posts that I can count right now, and
stil this has <as mentioned in one of the posts> remained to be a
record-breakingly civil, clearminded, and intelectual<sp?> discution<sp
again?> congratulations, I think. =)
> While american characters look cool with all their huge
> muscles and disproportionatly large breasts (Why don't they
> fall over more?), a manga style face can express moer emotion
> than an american could in a entire issue. (or more).
>
> My point was that american comics are (in general), more art
> driven than the japanese, which are story driven. Having read
> comics (of various kinds) for about eight years, and having
> gone through the Marvel, DC, Image (fancy art) phase and
> graduated to manga (let's have a story) phase, I was merely
> trying to provoke a discussion on the differences and compar-
> itive merits of the two styles and what they mean for their
> respective cultures.
> well, my 2-cents on the whole matter is as follows:I used to be an
incredible fan of the american superhero comics, ect. ect. for a
while... then along came the age of apocolipse <x-men> and I started to
really notice a trend, and looked arround at some other titles... the
american market, more and more lately, seems to have one big ploy:kill
of the hero and bring him/her back in as many unrealistic ways as
possible as often as possible. I mean, how many times can you kill a
superhero before it REALLY gets old.... as one of my friends put
it-"reed richards has died more times than 'last action hero' in it's
first weekend at the box-office" I dont know if it's just me, but I
really get annoyed when on top of "so-so" stories, they repeatedly pull
this apocoliptic theme and then un-do it all, just for the sake of
making another hologram-covered 64-page 4.50$ a peice 6-month
mini-seiries. and then the mini-series, like in the x-men... you
couldn't keep up with that title(s) without buying 20 or more comics a
month, and then each one is filled with little *'s in the dialog, notes
about a subject mentioned saying "see issue #???", which is one you
usually dont have but have to get to fill in the blank... which seems to
be an ingenious story-rigged marketing ploy to keep sales up....
hmmm....
but also, before anyone jumps me for all of that, that's sorta
just the big-name companys.. <but it seems image is doing that more and
more lately with their main titles> alot of the indie work seems to be
ok, and follows my favorite format:one book, produced regularly, without
the marketing-dramatics. unfortunatnly, I dont tend to like many of the
indie titles ether... I dont know. they just aren't my cup of tea
anymore. it's all a matter of _personal_ taste...
well, that was the story-line half of it... then you have the
art, which seems to be one of the main things in this discution. IMHO,
manga and NA-comics are just two different schools of art, linked only
here and there by similarities... I could be wrong, and i'm not saying
i've seen or know everything.. <on the contrary, i'm semi-new to
everything, so all i'm saying is just shooting off my current
opinions..> it's like new-age art and michalangelo <sp?>. they're
different styles, and it's the old "apples and oranges" cliche` <sp
again? gah I need a spellcheker for this> and I can appreciate both
schools of art, although I do tend to like manga better. once again,
just opinion.
> As for those who do like McFarlane... Well... Let's agree to
> disagree. While I have *ENORMOUS* respect for Jack Kirby and
> his achievements, I don't think his art was ever anywhere
> near as pleasing to the eye as McFarlane is. And while there
> are a lot of great artist out there (Frank Miller et al), I
> don't think any of them have garnered attention wuite like
> McFarlane (even if he can't write a story to save himself).
> For proof, take a look at Amazing Spiderman 298-321 and
> Spiderman 1-17. And whoever said that body proportin in comics
> matters is a fool! Just look at Jim Lee! Cool art...but the
> body shapes are rediculous!
well this is more a discution about diff. american artists.... personal
taste, once again..
Over opinionated,
and still clueless on the survival skill of shutting up,
Rubix
"if everyone tries to be unique, then uniqueness dies... perhaps the
next diverse thing is mainstream?"
ps.if i've made anyone mad, sorry! remember, we're setting a record here
for longest running CIVIL discution, and you wouldn't want to screw that
up, would you? so please, if nothing else listen to Smokey bear, don't
play with lighters(flames)! =)
Robert McNamara
In <4t7j6s$3...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Martin Bennett
<plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
>
>Just a little query here...
>
>What do people think of the japanese artists in comparison
>to their american counterparts?
>
>IMHO, while the japanese artists do a good job (esp. considering
>their deadlines) and WRITE great stories, I can't help but think
>that their art is not nearly as refined as the american style.
>
>never seen a japanese artist use cross hatch shading in the way
>Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee do...
>
>methodologies. But, I really can't think of a japanese artist who
>can be mentioned in the same breath as Todd McFarlane.
>
>does the whole job in Japan, and the artist only does the pencils
>in America...
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>--
>P-word (ZERO)
>
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> ZZZZ
> ZZZZ
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>
Yes, I do. In my opinion, American comics can only live up to Manga
standards when the plots steer away from strictly superhero. Not that I
don't love X-men, GenX, Gen13, Spawn, etc. They are all great. But none
of them can match up to something like Ranma 1/2. The plots in American
comics don't reach the depth that Japanese Manga does. I think Manga is
MORE than an art style, so other personal views will vary. Granted, Lee
and McFarlane do great jobs, as do Madueira and Buchello <sp?>. But
they are all working for an industry that demands "more skin, but no
nudity! Larger gender-specific areas! MORE SPANDEX! For the love of
God, more Spandex! ! !" See what I mean? People love Lady Death, but
freak out at a topless girl in Ranma 1/2 or Akira. It's sad, really.
'Nuff said.
Robert
Nari Igawa
so...@fred.net () wrote:
>Briefly: Manga artists are not lazy, and don't use stinky guest pencillers
>every 2 issues. They write their own stories, which many American artists
>don't.
(snip)
ur, well... if you don't include the manga artists having their own
full time apprentices which do a lot of the artwork with them. Plus,
their stories are often put under pressure by their publishing house
which demands story lines to be extended in order to provide more pulp
in the publications. Good example is the forced length of
Dragonball... a creation that was s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d to its fullest
possible reach.
Second, the stories are the creation and work of an individual; and
rarely will you see a comic title being adopted by another artist.
i.e. the dozens of artists who have drawn the X-Men title as compared
to something like "Kochira katsushikaku kameari koenmae hashatsujo" by
Akimoto Osamu which has had an incredibly long run in Shonen Jump.
You're not likely to see someone, for example, start new story lines
for Tetsuwon Atom on a regular serial...
Third, premier artists rarely will jump to another publishing house
and will generally stick to their parent company. You're not likely
to see Adachi, Mitsuru run over to Shounen Jump for example... unlike
the mass exodus from Marvel a few years back, or artists like the
aforementioned Frank Miller.
Just some thoughts...
-- nari
Nari Igawa (na...@gol.com)is a Wesleyan University graduate ('95 -
Philosophy/East Asian Studies) living in Kagoshima-Ken,
_|_|_ Japan teaching kids English by day and playing pachinko
_|_|_ and pool at night...
| | -- -- -- --
| | | "They couldn't score in an empty gym by
| | | themselves half the time"
/ | | -- Charles Barkley on the N.Y.Knicks
Takehisa Ikeda
>My oroginal post seems to have mislead everyone... It's my
>fault. What I was on about was the difference in style and
>emphasis between american and japanese styles of comic art.
>I was not for one second suggesting that american arts was
>BETTER as I do not think that is the case.
>While american characters look cool with all their huge
>muscles and disproportionatly large breasts (Why don't they
>fall over more?), a manga style face can express moer emotion
>than an american could in a entire issue. (or more).
>My point was that american comics are (in general), more art
>driven than the japanese, which are story driven. Having read
>comics (of various kinds) for about eight years, and having
>gone through the Marvel, DC, Image (fancy art) phase and
>graduated to manga (let's have a story) phase, I was merely
>trying to provoke a discussion on the differences and compar-
>itive merits of the two styles and what they mean for their
>respective cultures.
I'm certainly no expert on American comics, but here's my impression when
comparing comics to manga. Comics just seem too. . .stagnant. The
pictures just SIT there. No movement or depth. I've seen a lot of posts
describing the beauty of the art in comics, and yeah, I do agree--the
pictures really are beautifully drawn and very colorful. But. . .I think the
ultimate goal of comic book artists should be to create the illusion of
movement and motion with pictures that don't actually move that are drawn on a
medium that's meant to be held still in the readers' hands. I look at manga,
and I see lots of movement. This might be an advantage of using B&W instead
of color.
I'll use some really simple examples. Dragonball, for example. When
Toriyama's characters fly through the air, you can actually SEE them
flying--it's as if the characters are actually moving on the page. Then, I
look at a picture of Superman flying through the air, and it just looks like.
. .he's using a rope to hang in the air. There's no movement. Using
the same picture, you could put pajamas on him and draw a bed under him and it
would look fine as a frame in which he's taking a nap with his arms spread out.
Another thing that gives manga an advantage over comics is something that
really can't be helped--it comes from a difference between the English and
Japanese languages. Japanese onomatopoeia (eh. . .is that how you spell it?)
is very diverse. . .there are sounds that can be expressed on paper with
Japanese that you just can't express with English. In Japanese, there's a
sound for rain--there are even different sounds for HOW HARD it's raining.
There's a sound for whispering. There's a sound for tiptoe-ing. There's a
sound for someone getting stuck with a knife. There's a sound for licking
ice cream. There's a sound for scratching your hair. There's a sound
for when someone's surprised, sad, or happy. There's even a sound for
SILENCE, for pete's sake. These sounds go way beyond the
crash-whoosh-crack-pop-bang sounds that you see in comics. I can think of
a Maison Ikkoku manga frame in which the characters
are sitting around a table, and no one is saying anything because they're so
nervous--and this came across fine because there are sounds that express
silence and nervousness in Japanese--buuut, when this was translated into
English by Viz, they simply had to take out these sounds and leave blank
spaces, and you were left with a picture of the characters just sitting there,
looking at each other. It's as if the Japanese language was MADE for telling
stories with pictures on paper.
Anyway. . .I think I've strayed from the original topic of this thread, but. .
.that's my 2/100 of a dollar.
Peter Choi
Just like the title of this posting. Please let me know.
Thank you. :)
jbu...@capricorn.kent.edu
|>
|> Maus? It's an art comic. Can't be compared with many mundane thing I
|> like or dislike. I'm not interested in those artistic comics, but I
|> admit that those are very good.
|>
|> I suggest we should discuss about just mangas and newsstand comics,
|> not art comics. Real art comics that not so profit driven are hardly
|> compared with other counterparts. Let's not say those works.
|>
Most comics are distributed through the direct market (comic stores), not
newsstands. Why is it whenever a comic book gets critical acclaim, people say
it's not a real comic (an "art comic"). The people who created it got paid for
it, just like most creators.
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
jbu...@capricorn.kent.edu
|> We'll, I remember what happened with super-man, that was a big story,
|> super-man dies, then if you kept up with super-man, now you have to buy
|> 4 comics a week instead of 1, b'cos 4 "super-man"'s show up, each
|> supposedly the "real one" and so on... Manga (ie. Ranma) sometimes
There were already 4 superman titles.
Dean Hsieh
In article <0lzA3O200...@andrew.cmu.edu>, David Gabriel White
<dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Such a survey method is practically useless for gathering realistic
> data. If a similar survey were conducted in Japan, would we have to
> discard all genres other than martial arts slugfests and giant robot
> battles?
>
Not really. If you look at the top ten manga in Japan each month, it
represents a entirely diverse selection, in many different genres.
> Truly innovative work is rarely done in the mainstream in both America and
> Japan. And the American alternative market is, I'd argue, equivalently
> sized to the Japanese alternative market. Which either makes the
> Japanese alternative market either disproportionately small or the
> American alternative market huge.
Well, this is all relative and largely depending on what one defines as
"alternative". Garo, a truly avant garde comic anthology in Japan, sells
10,000-20,000. In America, it is near impossible for any alternative
comics except for the most popular ones to sell in that range. Also, many
comics are only considered "alternative" in America because it is crushed
under the bloating fat of superhero comics. In a recent panel, many
indie/alternative creators agreed that their works are actually more
mainstream and accessible than superhero comics, but are considered weird
and alternative simply by comparison to the standard of superheroes.
That's why you can sell more Love and Rockets or Hate to the average
person than, say, Gen13. On the other hand, many comics that are top ten
hits in Japan would be considered so "alternative" in America that it
would blow most alternative comics away: Inachuu Ping-Pong Club,
Dragonhead, Bronze, and many other examples come to mind.
> > Not sure if I would agree with that. There is simply a lot more
> > manga out there and it is much more diverse. Of course this comes from
> > all the sports manga and cooking manga, etc.
>
> Genres which no American would really be interested in. At the same
> time, I don't recall ever seeing the true crime genre hit the big time
> in Japan. The audiences have completely different tastes.
>
The bottom line is that manga is FAR bigger and more diverse than the
American market. I don't know what you might consider true crime, but the
whole wave of "gekiga" comics back in the day were largely crime fiction,
often centered around the yakuza. Comics like Golgo 13 and Sanctuary are
pretty hard-boiled stuff, barring a few cultural differences.
> Basically, many of the Japanese genres aren't prevalent in America
> because they are adequately covered by other sources (i.e., who needs
> shojo manga when you've got an issue of "True Romance" magazine?).
>
That is very true. Many genres which are covered in manga have its
counterpart in America, but not in comic form. In many ways, TV and movies
provide the diversity and range of entertainment that people want in
America, and comics have been driven into deeper and deeper ghettos by the
short-sightedness of publishers and the industry as a whole. But oh well,
what can you do? I've resigned to the fact that the situation is so
deep-rooted that it's almost impossible to change.
> >>The same applies to American comics. It's not all superheroes. Check
> >>it out.
>
> > Yea, that is true, but the superhero stuff dominates the market
> > for the most part and I think that keeps it from, I don't know,
> > reaching a maturity level, that one can find in a lot more Japanese
> > work than in NA work, IMHO.
>
> Actually, I'd say I find the maturity levels to be slightly higher in
> American comics than in Japanese comics. On the other hand, neither
> can hold a candle to European comics when it comes to overall maturity
> level. Many Japanese comics substitute clubbing you over the head with
> painfully obvious philosophy for actual maturity. When you come right
> down to it, Japanese comics are every bit as infantile and pandering
> as mainstream American comics.
>
Well, that depends on how one defines "mature". If seriousness is a gauge
for maturity, then European comics and definitely American comics can be
considered more mature than manga (an opinion I've heard often). However,
humor and clarity (which can, granted, sometimes be obvious) are assets in
comics and works with these elements should not be considered any less
mature. This is strictly my opinion, but I think a work like Eightball is
much less mature than Osamu Tezuka's Phoenix or Adolf. Of course, that's
just my personal taste and viewpoint.
>
> Percentages come out thusly: more Japanese read comics, the Japanese
> print more comics. You can't produce percentages for "good comics"
> because you really can't objectively measure something that's
> completely subjective. But remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything
> is crap. So while this means that if the Japanese are producing more
> quality comics, they're producing way more crap.
>
That is also very true. Manga has a lot more crap, but it also has more
good stuff because of the crap. Think of the movie industry: if it isn't
such a huge industry, would many good independent films be made? Manga is
a lot more like the U.S. film industry than the U.S. comics industry.
> Furthermore, a large chunk of Japanese comics are simply not
> exportable at all. Those who bemoan the inability of Japanese comics
> to penetrate the American market or the inability of American comics
> to invade the Japanese market must remember that American comics are
> read throughout much of the Americas and Europe, while absolutely
> no-one outside of Japan would never pick up a pachinko manga.
>
Umm, I'm not sure if I entirely agree with this statement. Japanese comics
have a near strangle-hold on comics in most Asian countries, even with
cultural differences (Yes, there is a cultural difference between Japan
and, say, Taiwan or Korea. Less than the U.S., of course.). Manga is huge
in Europe, and Dragonball and Ranma 1/2 is far more popular than any
superhero comic. At conventions in France and Italy, manga creators such
as Otomo and Ikegami are far more popular and respected than, say, Jim Lee
or Todd McFarlane. On the other hand, American comics have very little
popularity in Asia, other than the recent little X-Men fad in Japan.
Compare that with the U.S., where there's a near-fanatical following of
manga/anime, even with the crap that's being put out here. I believe that
is because manga does a far better job of communication and people respond
to it. Manga is the most global comic form, and will most likely remain
so.
> The average Japanese comics reader reads an entire issue of Shonen
> Jump in about three or four minutes. I spend more time than that
> reading a single 22-page story. Remember that reader expectations also
> play a large part in determining quality. If I could read a 300 page
> book in 3 minutes, I think I've just wasted my money. I like to linger
> on things, and consequently I find most American comics more rewarding
> than their Japanese counterparts.
>
I think you might be confusing a 30-40 page episode of a serial in Shonen
Jump to the entire issue. It would be a difficult feat to read a 400-page
comic anthology in 3-4 minutes, even with the quick pacing of manga. Also,
many Japanese readers only browse through Jump, only to buy the series
that they especially like in tankouban form and read it then. Knit-picking
aside, your point is absolutely valid. Reader expectations are completely
different, and therefore manga will never be as popular in America and it
will definitely not be the savior of the comic industry as touted by
Wizard. Of course, if you were able to buy a 300-page manga at the same
price as a 22-page comic, and spend the same amount of time reading it,
what would you consider is a better bargain? That is the difference and
economy of scale we're dealing with. When I went back to Taiwan, I was
astonished to find that I can buy a tankouban equivalent of a graphic
novel for $3-$4 dollars (cheaper if used). If manga were sold in the
states the same way, there would be no question what would be more
rewarding. However, because it will never be popular enough in the states
to support such economy of scale, there's a vicious cycle that will never
be broken. American publishers restrict the format to a rigid 22-page
pamphlet, and therefore must pack in more story to make the readers feel
like they're getting their money's worth. Which, in my opinion, severely
disrupts the rhythm and clarity of storytelling in many cases. Many people
have raised the issue that Japanese creators are just as trapped and
hopeless in their rigid system of pumping out manga, but I feel that
American creators are even more trapped by our own, even more rigid
system. Oh well, that's enough ranting for now. Remember, everything are
just opinions of mine, so don't take anything personally ^_^.
P.S. I have also read Manga!Manga! and Dreamland Japan and they're great,
definitely the best source of manga information available in English. I
urge everyone else to read them as well!
--
Dean Hsieh
dea...@mail.utexas.edu
http://www.hyperweb.com/A.M.Works
Phil Lee
In article <4tk3lp$6...@qualcomm.com>,
Hagbard Celine <dha...@scudc.scu.edu> wrote:
>Eris! All Hail Eris!
Sure, why not. Hail Eris. Ra ra ra. Go team. Etc.
>>Last I checked, "manga" meant "comic". Neither American or Japanese
>>comics are inherently better or worse. There are a lot of bad American
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>Since when was any viable choice "inherently better" and "inherently
>worse" than any other viable choice? Everything has its benefits, yes,
Viable choices certainly have their pros and cons, even though they may
be rather subjective. My point was that comics as a medium are not
necessarily better depending on where they're from. Which, based on a
lot of what I've seen in this thread, some people seem to belive.
>>There are many wonderful American comics being produced in all catagories
>>- color/b&w, self-published/work-for-hire, one artist/many, etc. Not all
>Maybe there are. I was refering to the comics that were readily
>avaliable in a typical comic shop. I tried a few. One dealer even had
>the nerve to put Urusei Yatsura (Return of Lum) in the Adult section.
>"It's got romance, and aliens. Yah, that's adult." So was Vampire Miyu
>by Antarctic press. "It didn't have that 'comics code' stamp of approval."
I've seen similar cases of the adult rating for UY; a local blockbuster
had a 17+ sticker on that particular tape. As for the dealer, it sounds
like he doesn't bother to actually read much of what he sells; in his
defense, I can understand a dealer trying to avoid being thrown in jail
for selling obscene material, even if it means he's too lazy to check for
himself. Both of these cases are unfortunate, and somewhat ignorant, and
probably (again unfortunatly) represent a large portion of the market.
To find non-mainstream titles, you'll need to be forutnate enough to live
near a good comic specialty store. On the other hand, I expect that most
of the comics in Japan follow a similar trend; I rather doubt every
newsstand carries more than the most popular comic magazines. To find a
lot of manga, you're going to have to check a specialty store. While I
really can't say for certain what the manga market is like in Japan, I
rather doubt the marketing situation between mainstream and
non-mainstream comics is much different. (Can anyone who is familiar
with the Japanese comic market comment on this?)
>>Japan does not have a monopoly on comics written in a drawn-out narrative
>>style. (One of the best Western examples is Dave Sim's Cerebus.) Todd
>Of course not. There's a minor language barrier, how could they have
>a monopoly?! Most people can't even consider buying them, b'cos they
>can't even read them.
I'm afraid I didn't follow this sentence at all, unless it's a form of
Erisian non-sequeter. I meant monopoly in a figurative sense.
>>McFarlane is not (thank god) the defining force in American comics.
>>(Influental, certainly - but by no means defining.) Not all American
>>comics are a) color and b) drawn by teams. (Look at a lot of the
>>independent/self-published comics for examples. Teri Wood's Wandering
>Visibility? Where?
Like I said above - check a specialty shop. I realize that these comics
represent a small amount of the market, but the American comic market
isn't that big to begin with. ^_^ Hopefully, these sorts of
"independent" comics will continue to become a larger share of the market.
>Its just that with US comics, I feel its way past the critical point,
>the 50% rule. Once more than 50% of something becomes the same genre,
>its likely to stay that way. US comics started out as superheroes, and
>they've always been superheroes. At least with manga you have a few
>more genres, and no one alone accounts for 50% of sales, visibility,
>display, money-making, etc. I can't stand mecha stuff, sure, but they're
>not 50% of the visibilty/market. I can't stand superheroes either.
I think you're looking at this backwards. US comics did not start out
entirely as superhero titles. Before the Comics Code was introduced,
there were a slew of horror, true crime, romance, science fiction, and
other genre of comics available. What the Code did was force comics to
adhere to strict moralistic standards of good v/s bad; as a result, the
industry devolved into comics aimed at kids, instead of a broader
audience, and for the most part this meant superhero comics. If you take
your "50% rule" as a reliable estimate of the comics industry, I'd say
American comics have matured tremendously in the past 20 years. Be more
optamistic. ^_^
As for Japanese comics, I somehow doubt they began with a terribly wide
range of genres. Tezuka set the standard of comics with "New Treasure
Island", basically an adventure comic about a young boy, and I'm sure the
rest of the industry was very similiar for a while. (Of course, Tezuka
was quick to go beyond mere adventure stories, with novelizations of
_Faust_ and _Crime and Punishment_ early in his career, but this is
indicitive more of Tezuka's genius than the rest of the industry.)
The best metaphor I can think of for the American comics industry is
stunted growth. Americn comics have been allowed to mature for quite
some time now, and hopefully, in the future, will be as popular and
diverse as Japanese comics.
>These "good" or "alternative" or "non-superhero" comics, most if I do
>find them they're next to the manga section, in the adult section, or
>so on. And of the dealers that don't carry them -- either
> "We don't carry third-party stuff, its against store policy..."
> "We had those once, but they didn't sell..."
>etc. is the reason they don't have it, if they admit it at all.
>Only reason I see Sandman and some others is b'cos they're done by the
>DC Vertigo(?) line.
The fact that you see Sandman and other Vertigo titles at all is a good
sign, and represents the growing maturity of American comics. With luck,
this trend will continue.
>>Finally, keep Sturgeon's Law in mind at all times: 90% of everything is
>>shit. There are a lot of really horrible American comics. There are a
>Wait! I beg to differ! It's 95%+ Some industries its 99%! Look at modern
>cults/religious groups for instance. They're even worse than 99%. Wanta join
>the Bavarian Illuminati? Sure, go ahead...
90% is a conservative estimate. ^_^
>Also consider how manga is sold in japan. That 30% doesn't include mags
>that just sit on shelves. In Japan, you send back your unsold mags to
>the company that made them and don't pay for them. In US, if you order
>too many of an unpopular book, too bad. So dealers are very hesitant to
>get all this stuff only a few people buy, the industry itself has a lot
>of inertia.
The Japanese comic industry is large enough and prints manga in such
volume that they can afford to do this. Unfortunatly, the American comic
industry doesn't have this luxery yet. However, as more and more people
read a more diverse selection of comics, and turn their friends on to
comics, this trend will start to reverse itself. The industry does have
a lot of inertia - I like to think that this inertia is being overcome.
_Sandman_ is a perfect example of this.
>What was this? I see this stamp on certain books.
See my earlier definition. The Code was a 1950's reaction to fears of
the deterioration of youth morality (and morality in general for that
matter).
>Does this have anything to do with the language your characters can use?
>I'm yet to see a US comic book like the street gangs talk like real
>street gangs, where the soldiers talk like real soldiers, where the
>thugs and punks talk like real thugs and punks, and where the
>superheroes talk like me, I mean, like real superheroes.
Look harder. If 90% of everything is shit, that includes bad writting,
in both American and Japanese comics. In my experience, most Japanese
street gangs that appear in comics seem to be caricatures and
stereotypes. I couldn't really comment on how "real" soldiers talk, but
I'm sure at least some of the war comics of the 1940's were vaguely
realistic. Again, keep Sturgeon's Law in mind.
>Yah, I noticed it went from 90%+ superheroes to about 75%-. It improve-
>ing no doubt. A few years, I got sick of US comics, now I'll at least
>glance through them. In a few more years I might be able to read them
>again. Only US comic I read now is Dilbert.
A quick word about superhero comics. There are some absolutely, bang-up,
well written, beautifully drawn, fantastic superhero comics. DC's
_Impulse_ is one of the best comics currently on the stands in my opinion.
The Claremond/Byrne/Moore(?) run of _Uncanny X-Men_ was excellent, and a
major shot in the arm for the comic industry in the late 70's, early
80's. The Lee/Kirby comics of the early 60's were much the same at the
time. Comics of all genres are potentially good, or potentially bad, and
that includes the superhero comics. I can understand that many people
may be jaded towards superhero comics, but that doesn't necessarily mean
they aren't good.
I just can't repeat Sturgeon's Law enough. 90% of everything is shit. ^_^
>>Americans stand to learn a lot from each other when it comes to comics.
>Prob'ly.
Definatly.
Phil
>---
>Hagbard Celine / LDD
>
>If you are offended by this message, then you have been blessed.
>Congratulations! You can have the honor of feeding the "perpetual flame
>machine" and help solve our energy crisis! Your bits. Our energy.
>
Dean Hsieh
In article <4u0tk5$t...@newz.oit.unc.edu>, ph...@email.unc.edu (Phil Lee) wrote:
>
> To find non-mainstream titles, you'll need to be forutnate enough to live
> near a good comic specialty store. On the other hand, I expect that most
> of the comics in Japan follow a similar trend; I rather doubt every
> newsstand carries more than the most popular comic magazines. To find a
> lot of manga, you're going to have to check a specialty store. While I
> really can't say for certain what the manga market is like in Japan, I
> rather doubt the marketing situation between mainstream and
> non-mainstream comics is much different. (Can anyone who is familiar
> with the Japanese comic market comment on this?)
>
anthologized, lots of different material considered mainstream and
non-mainstream can often be sold together. Pick up any issue of Afternoon
and chances are it'll have some comics that are far more "alternative"
than alternative comics are here. Even a completely esoteric and
avant-garde anthology like Garo still gets carried in regular bookstores,
maybe not newsstands. You'd have to look into the otaku/doujinshi market
to find similar parallels to the American market (which is, arguably, only
a doujinshi market anyways, but that's another story....)
> >they've always been superheroes. At least with manga you have a few
> >more genres, and no one alone accounts for 50% of sales, visibility,
> >display, money-making, etc. I can't stand mecha stuff, sure, but they're
> >not 50% of the visibilty/market. I can't stand superheroes either.
>
> I think you're looking at this backwards. US comics did not start out
> entirely as superhero titles. Before the Comics Code was introduced,
> there were a slew of horror, true crime, romance, science fiction, and
> other genre of comics available. What the Code did was force comics to
> adhere to strict moralistic standards of good v/s bad; as a result, the
> industry devolved into comics aimed at kids, instead of a broader
> audience, and for the most part this meant superhero comics. If you take
> your "50% rule" as a reliable estimate of the comics industry, I'd say
> American comics have matured tremendously in the past 20 years. Be more
> optamistic. ^_^
>
Yes, the U.S. comics are incredibly stunted due to the comics code, as
many have pointed out. While it's true that comics have matured, I still
believe that the former statement of 50% visibility holds true. It's
really disheartening that although you have your Love and Rockets and your
THB, the fact remains that they have incredibly low sales, primarily due
to low visibility. Also, with the new industry shakedowns lately
(exclusives, Diamond buying Capital), the market is no longer able to
support self-publishing and Super-heroes are still more visible than ever.
Sorry, but I'm not feeling very optimistic.....^_^
> As for Japanese comics, I somehow doubt they began with a terribly wide
> range of genres. Tezuka set the standard of comics with "New Treasure
> Island", basically an adventure comic about a young boy, and I'm sure the
> rest of the industry was very similiar for a while. (Of course, Tezuka
> was quick to go beyond mere adventure stories, with novelizations of
> _Faust_ and _Crime and Punishment_ early in his career, but this is
> indicitive more of Tezuka's genius than the rest of the industry.)
>
Basically, the Japanese industry had Osamu Tezuka and creator rights
whereas the American industry had Jack Kirby and company slavery. Everyone
in the mainstream are still burning off of Jack Kirby's creativity, but no
one sees fit to actually reprint any of his comics....this is the kind of
hypocrisy the industry's built on.
> The best metaphor I can think of for the American comics industry is
> stunted growth. Americn comics have been allowed to mature for quite
> some time now, and hopefully, in the future, will be as popular and
> diverse as Japanese comics.
>
Actually, I have resigned myself to believe that comics will never be as
popular and diverse in the U.S. as Japan. Both industries started up at a
time when comics was a new, exciting medium which the people wanted. The
Japanese did it right, and now manga's so entrenched that it'll never go
away. The Americans really screwed up, and can no longer withstand
competition with other, more popular media today such as movies or video
games. Therefore we end up with the incredible shrinking market that we
have today. Okay, maybe things will get better eventually, but I don't see
it happening in my lifetime....
>
> The Japanese comic industry is large enough and prints manga in such
> volume that they can afford to do this. Unfortunatly, the American comic
> industry doesn't have this luxery yet. However, as more and more people
> read a more diverse selection of comics, and turn their friends on to
> comics, this trend will start to reverse itself. The industry does have
> a lot of inertia - I like to think that this inertia is being overcome.
> _Sandman_ is a perfect example of this.
>
Many of my friends will read Sandman and other comics I have, and really
like it, but they'll never be caught dead at a comic store. Also it's way
too expensive for anyone other than hardcore fans to buy comics ($14.95
for a graphic novel when you can watch a movie for $3-$6?) Once again I
can't help but be pessimistic....
>
> A quick word about superhero comics. There are some absolutely, bang-up,
> well written, beautifully drawn, fantastic superhero comics. DC's
> _Impulse_ is one of the best comics currently on the stands in my opinion.
> The Claremond/Byrne/Moore(?) run of _Uncanny X-Men_ was excellent, and a
> major shot in the arm for the comic industry in the late 70's, early
> 80's. The Lee/Kirby comics of the early 60's were much the same at the
> time. Comics of all genres are potentially good, or potentially bad, and
> that includes the superhero comics. I can understand that many people
> may be jaded towards superhero comics, but that doesn't necessarily mean
> they aren't good.
>
The basic problems with superheroes is that its basically artistic
indentured slavery. Impulse might be good now, but do you think that it'll
be good when Waid and Ramos leave the book? Nothing's keeping them there,
since they don't own the rights. Image says, "hey, want to draw the new
Gen13 spin-off?" and Ramos runs immediately to them. How many people can
you convince to read the Claremont/Byrne (Moore's not in it) X-Men by
saying, "well, you won't really get an ending, and the book pretty much
sucks now, but read this portion of it because it's really good!" The
genre of superheroes is not inherently bad, but with the approach of the
U.S. industry, it's never going to change for the better.
-Dean
Phil Lee
In article <deaner-0408...@slip-1-6.ots.utexas.edu>,
Dean Hsieh <dea...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
(Mainstream v/s non-mainstream in Japan)
>I think the Japanese situation is a little more diffused. Since stuff is
>anthologized, lots of different material considered mainstream and
>non-mainstream can often be sold together. Pick up any issue of Afternoon
>and chances are it'll have some comics that are far more "alternative"
>than alternative comics are here. Even a completely esoteric and
>avant-garde anthology like Garo still gets carried in regular bookstores,
>maybe not newsstands. You'd have to look into the otaku/doujinshi market
>to find similar parallels to the American market (which is, arguably, only
>a doujinshi market anyways, but that's another story....)
Thanks for the information about the market. As for the American market
being a doujinshi market, I'd like to take offense at that for a moment.
^_^ Despite the small size of the American market, there is a clear
distinction between amateur and professional comic makers. While there
is professional crossover by doujinshi artists (CLAMP for example), you
can't compare someone who draws comics as a hobby, probably to be sold
only a couple of times a year to someone who is trying to make a living
soley from comics. You may find content similarities, but I don't think
there is any equivilant in America to the doujinshi market.
While non-mainstream comics (alternative if you like) may not have nearly
the publishing volume in America that they do in Japan, they have the
potential to reach a wider audience within the comics field. That is,
it's easier to be a bigger fish in a small pond. ^_^ Take a comic like
Wandering Star for example. This is the work of one woman,
self-published, with a comparitively miniscule audience in relation to
the Japanese market. However, Wandering Star has the opportunity to
reach a much wider comic audience, especially in a specialty market.
With one trade paper back out already, Wandering Star has gathered quite
a bit of recognition in the comics field for being a damn good comic.
While far more "alternative" (which, based on content, is largely a
matter of opinion) may have wide ranging publishing in Japan, a single
person with limmited capital can obtain a nation-wide audience for his or
her work, and publish their comics outside the mainstream industry. I
rather doubt this is even remotely popular in the Japanese market,
especially considering the level that comics like Wandering Star are
publishing at.
Of course, many American independent artists would probably much rather
have the recognition of their the "alternative" Japanese comics you
mention than the freedom of independent publishing. ^_^
>Yes, the U.S. comics are incredibly stunted due to the comics code, as
>many have pointed out. While it's true that comics have matured, I still
>believe that the former statement of 50% visibility holds true. It's
>really disheartening that although you have your Love and Rockets and your
>THB, the fact remains that they have incredibly low sales, primarily due
>to low visibility. Also, with the new industry shakedowns lately
>(exclusives, Diamond buying Capital), the market is no longer able to
>support self-publishing and Super-heroes are still more visible than ever.
>Sorry, but I'm not feeling very optimistic.....^_^
Ah, cheer up. ^_^ As I said earlier, while comics like Love and
Rockets, THB, etc, may have incredibly low sales, their visibility in the
market is potentially larger than numbers alone may represent. Take Bone
for example. Some guy puts out a few comics on his own, and in no time
flat, his characters are on the covers of Disney Adventures. Someone
with little money and no initial recognition recieved a large amount of
visibility, by virtue of making a good comic book. I know, it's a rare
occurance, but it does show what can happen.
In the American market, comics of low visibility don't have to achieving
the 50% visibility that was mentioned earlier to succeed. They just have
to be a good comic. Of course, these comics may have low print runs.
There may be an extremely limited market. They may sell utterly paltry
sums in comparison to the latest X-men crossover. But, these creators
can sustain themselves on such an audience, which will, one hopes, go out
and rabidly tell all their friends what a great comic this is. And
eventually, these comics can potentially play a larger role in
influencing the industry, surviving wave after wave of super-hero
comics. Look at Cerebus - no matter what you think of the comic, it is
probably the highest profile independent comic, and a comic that is going
to withstand whatever the market throws at it.
As for the recent lurches in the market, only time will tell. While
certainly not a good thing, I somehow doubt the self-publishing industry
is going to go under. At least, I hope not. ^_^
>Basically, the Japanese industry had Osamu Tezuka and creator rights
>whereas the American industry had Jack Kirby and company slavery. Everyone
>in the mainstream are still burning off of Jack Kirby's creativity, but no
>one sees fit to actually reprint any of his comics....this is the kind of
>hypocrisy the industry's built on.
I agree wholeheartedly, up to a point. Not all artists are corporate
slaves, and the entire industry isn't built on hypocricy. Most, perhaps,
but not all. ^_^;
>Actually, I have resigned myself to believe that comics will never be as
>popular and diverse in the U.S. as Japan. Both industries started up at a
>time when comics was a new, exciting medium which the people wanted. The
>Japanese did it right, and now manga's so entrenched that it'll never go
>away. The Americans really screwed up, and can no longer withstand
>competition with other, more popular media today such as movies or video
>games. Therefore we end up with the incredible shrinking market that we
>have today. Okay, maybe things will get better eventually, but I don't see
>it happening in my lifetime....
Again, cheer up. ^_^ It's already happening in your lifetime - just
don't expect a Japanese style market anytime soon. The US market isn't
in great shape, but it isn't quite ready to keel over. If comics have
the potential for such wide-spread appeal shown in the Japanese market,
the American market may one day suprise us all.
As for American comics never being as diverse as the Japanese market, I'd
like to think that the American industry shows a great potential for
diversity, and the Japanese market is potentially more restrictive.
With the possibility of self-publishing, almost anything that is well
done can recieve a steady audience in America. Japanese creators, on the
other hand, are somewhat more restrained by their publishers. Not
entirely, by any means, and I'm sure many publishers in Japan are happy
to let their artists run wild with their work. On the other hand, you
also see publishers dragging comics along for years until they've been
run into the ground, to maximize profit.
Also, having a large number of comics about, oh, fishing isn't
necessarily how I would judge diversity. ^_^
>Many of my friends will read Sandman and other comics I have, and really
>like it, but they'll never be caught dead at a comic store. Also it's way
>too expensive for anyone other than hardcore fans to buy comics ($14.95
>for a graphic novel when you can watch a movie for $3-$6?) Once again I
>can't help but be pessimistic....
And, once again, I tell you to cheer up. Damnit. ^_^ Let's say a lot
of your friends read Sandman and like it. Most of them probably won't be
caught dead in a comics store, but one of them might go out and start
getting Sandman for themselves, and telling their friends about how cool
it is. And, before long, Sandman takes over the world. ^_^ Not quite,
but word-of-mouth has a lot of potential; why do you think Sandman is so
popular? Friends kept telling friends about how cool it is.
Comic prices are unfortunate. Without publishing boatloads of comics,
it's difficult to keep prices down. On the other hand, if someone likes
someting enough, they'll break down and pay that much for a graphic
novel. If more and more of the people who find out how cool Sandman is
decide to start buying it, prices will go down. Eventually. ^_^
(Superhero comics)
>The basic problems with superheroes is that its basically artistic
>indentured slavery. Impulse might be good now, but do you think that it'll
>be good when Waid and Ramos leave the book? Nothing's keeping them there,
>since they don't own the rights. Image says, "hey, want to draw the new
>Gen13 spin-off?" and Ramos runs immediately to them. How many people can
>you convince to read the Claremont/Byrne (Moore's not in it) X-Men by
>saying, "well, you won't really get an ending, and the book pretty much
>sucks now, but read this portion of it because it's really good!" The
>genre of superheroes is not inherently bad, but with the approach of the
>U.S. industry, it's never going to change for the better.
You're right on this point. At least these writers tend to stay in the
industry; when Peter David stops working on a title, at least he's going
to go work on another one somewhere, making sure the shit is balanced out
by the good. ^_^
However, this isn't an inherent problem of superheroes - it's a problem
of the mainstream market, which is predominatly superheroes. He may be
at Dark Horse now, but Mike Aldred probably isn't going to give up Madman
to anyone else. ^_^
As far as the Moore thing goes, I was trying to remember the name of the
inker durring the Claremont/Byrne run. Terry someone...wish I could
remember his last name. *grumble*
Phil
>-Dean
>--
>Dean Hsieh
>dea...@mail.utexas.edu
>http://www.hyperweb.com/A.M.Works
Travis Butler
>ha...@gol.com (Shawn Hagen) writes:
>> David Gabriel White <dw...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>Such a survey method is practically useless for gathering realistic
>data. If a similar survey were conducted in Japan, would we have to
>discard all genres other than martial arts slugfests and giant robot
>battles?
I can't say for sure, never having been to Japan. :)
But in all seriousness... leaving aside the survey Shawn Hagen proposed, I
think it is completely justifiable (if not always fair) to judge by what
you can find on the shelves at your local comics store. And by that
criteria... the stores I've been to in my 'home territory', Kansas City and
Lawrence, are dominated by Marvel, DC, and Image, with Dark Horse coming in
somewhat behind them. The larger specialty stores I've been to in St.
Louis, Lansing MI, and Denver have had larger selections of alternative
titles, but the big names still hold well over half the shelf space.
And of the big names... I can't recall anything from Image but the steroid
superhero titles I despise. Marvel and DC have some variety, but I can't
say I care for even most of their alternate titles I've seen (like DC's
Babylon 5 title; some of the ideas weren't bad, but the plots were sadly
truncated and I didn't like the artwork at all. Or DC (IIRC)'s version of
the Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's series; I absolutely hated the artwork).
Dark Horse is the only 'major name' that I would say has a plurality of
diverse titles... and even some of their titles that I'm interested in
(such as The Mask) share some of the artwork style that I dislike.
I don't like a lot of the contemporary humor titles either; I'm not fond of
the 'Ren and Stimpy,' 'Simpsons,' or 'Beavis and Butthead' comic tie-ins...
and, quite honestly, none of the other mainstream humor titles were
memorable enough to come to mind right now. (I do like Groening's earlier
work, but I'm not sure I'd consider it 'mainstream'... and I'm not sure
it'd qualify as a 'comic book' title.)
In addition, many of the alternative titles have gone in a direction I
don't care for; I respect what Gaiman's done with Sandman, but I'm not fond
of the art... and titles like 'Cud' are a complete turn-off.
Therefore, I think it's fair to say that U.S. comic books are at least
dominated, if not quite overwhelmed, by the kind of titles I dislike.
(Just to give a quick idea of what I *do* like in U.S. comics... Phil
Foglio's one of my favorite 'alternative' artists. I like what I've seen of
Dave Sim's art, though I was confused enough by trying to read something in
the middle of Cerebus to wait until I can find and afford the first Cerebus
GN. I thought the 'Normalman' GN I found used was a lot of fun, though a
bit OTT at times. :) And leaving the category of 'comic books', I enjoy
Dilbert, Calvin and Hobbes, classic Bloom County, the Far Side, Doonesbury,
Thatch, and a few others. To be fair, I'm not against the superhero genre
either, per se; but all of my favorite examples are at least a decade or
two old -- Wally Wood's T.H.U.N.D.E.R Agents, many of the older DC titles
that were given tabloid-size reprints in the mid to late'70s, and some of
the original Marvel titles, for example.)
>Truly innovative work is rarely done in the mainstream in both America and
>Japan. And the American alternative market is, I'd argue, equivalently
>sized to the Japanese alternative market. Which either makes the
>Japanese alternative market either disproportionately small or the
>American alternative market huge.
I don't know enough about the Japanese market to judge this; but even
granting it, I like at least *some* part of the Japanese mainstream (such
as Takahashi, and (probable mainstream) Fujishima and some of Shirow) much
better than I like just about *any* of the U.S. mainstream titles. (Note
again that I'm just including 'comic books,' not daily comic strips.)
>> Not sure if I would agree with that. There is simply a lot more
>> manga out there and it is much more diverse. Of course this comes from
>> all the sports manga and cooking manga, etc.
>
>Genres which no American would really be interested in. At the same
>time, I don't recall ever seeing the true crime genre hit the big time
>in Japan. The audiences have completely different tastes.
>
>Basically, many of the Japanese genres aren't prevalent in America
>because they are adequately covered by other sources (i.e., who needs
>shojo manga when you've got an issue of "True Romance" magazine?).
Covered? Perhaps. Adequately? No. 'True Romance' might cover a *part* of
the audience for titles such as Maison Ikkoku; but I would guess the
audience for MI is potentially quite a bit larger, including those who
enjoy the 'screwball comedy' genre in movies and TV. I can certainly say
that in *my* case, at least, I enjoy the romantic comedy of MI (and the
'romantic' element in many regular SF/Fantasy books) without having the
slightest interest in any of the 'genre romance' titles.
>Furthermore, a large chunk of Japanese comics are simply not
>exportable at all. Those who bemoan the inability of Japanese comics
>to penetrate the American market or the inability of American comics
>to invade the Japanese market must remember that American comics are
>read throughout much of the Americas and Europe, while absolutely
>no-one outside of Japan would never pick up a pachinko manga.
Granted, the views of many U.S. fans (including myself) are probably
colored by the fact that all we see are the translated U.S. releases of
Japanese titles -- which are presumably a part of the cream of the crop,
since the less-popular titles wouldn't be worth the effort of translation
and release. But from the standpoint of 'what is available for me at the
local comics store,' that only makes manga an even more attractive genre.
If I go into a comic store and pick up a random translated manga and a
random U.S. title, the chances of finding something I like are much higher
with the translated manga than with the U.S. title.
>To be honest, many of these issues have been covered quite elegantly
>by Frederick Shodt in "Manga! Manga!" and the recent "Dreamland
>Japan". Shodt, BTW, takes the balanced opinion that neither manga nor
>American comics is inherently superior to the others. If you don't
>have copies already, the books are well worth tracking down.
I can see this when the best of each side are compared -- I like my
favorite U.S. titles at least as much as my favorite manga titles. However,
as I note above... when you judge by what's available in your local comics
store, manga has an advantage because the titles that arrive here are
already pre-selected to a degree. Come to think of it, pre-selection is
probably a significant factor in the Japanese-only titles as they are seen
by U.S. fans; I'd think that Japanese bookstores don't have the resources
to bring over *everything*, so they probably bring over just the best/most
popular items as well. And mail-order is at least partly driven by the fan
grapevine... which again would skew the results towards the better series.
Moreover, the Japanese mainstream manga titles cover genres -- such as
comedy/romantic comedy in the Takahashi vein -- that are covered (to my
satisfaction, anyway) only by relatively hard-to-find artists like Foglio.
Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
tbu...@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
<http://www.tfs.net/personal/tbutler/>;
Mac page <http://www.tfs.net/business/tbutler/>)
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
jhangart
In article <4td1pq$m...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>, Martin Bennett <plu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> says:
>My oroginal post seems to have mislead everyone... It's my
>fault. What I was on about was the difference in style and
>emphasis between american and japanese styles of comic art.
>I was not for one second suggesting that american arts was
>BETTER as I do not think that is the case.
Okay, I've just read a few of these followups, so someone's probably said
this already...But don't forget how much a manga artist has to do! Look at
Rumiko Takahashi! She does Lum, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, etc. ALL BY
HERSELF! If she were to spend the time that american artists do on the art,
you'd see a new issue out maybe once a YEAR. The american artists need only
draw the pencil sketch, so they can spend all they're time on that, rather
than layout, inking, the cover, story, lettering, etc. I, myself, prefer
the simpler japanese art over the detailed american art. Of course, I'm not
saying that japanese art is all fast sketched and undetailed...I mean, some
of the mechs and stuff...
- Jeff
Bernard J. Sheehan
jhangart <jhan...@oanet.com> wrote:
> Rumiko Takahashi! She does Lum, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, etc. ALL BY
> HERSELF!
And all her assistants just sit around all day wattching her;)
--
Barney
---new signature under construction---
-appearing on this site soon a new-
-=thirty eight story skyscrapper=-
John O'Reilly
jhan...@oanet.com (jhangart) wrote:
>Okay, I've just read a few of these followups, so someone's probably said
>this already...But don't forget how much a manga artist has to do! Look at
>Rumiko Takahashi! She does Lum, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, etc. ALL BY
>HERSELF! If she were to spend the time that american artists do on the art,
>you'd see a new issue out maybe once a YEAR.
>- Jeff
Well.... sorta. Takahashi has a number of assistants, as do a
good chunk of the "faster" manga artists. As far as I know, she'll
script, and pencil and ink the characters. Typesetting and
backgrounds and screen-tones will be done by the assistants.
Besides, UY and MI both finished up years ago. I think she
tries to keep to only a couple of series at a time. But she still
writes faster (and better) than I ever could. a marvelous
storyteller. :)
Beth J.
Forever Young >:]
j...@mail.i1.net (John O'Reilly) typed something like:
>jhan...@oanet.com (jhangart) wrote:
>>Okay, I've just read a few of these followups, so someone's probably said
>>this already...But don't forget how much a manga artist has to do! Look at
>>Rumiko Takahashi! She does Lum, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, etc. ALL BY
>>HERSELF! If she were to spend the time that american artists do on the art,
>>you'd see a new issue out maybe once a YEAR.
>>- Jeff
>Well.... sorta. Takahashi has a number of assistants, as do a
>good chunk of the "faster" manga artists. As far as I know, she'll
>script, and pencil and ink the characters. Typesetting and
>backgrounds and screen-tones will be done by the assistants.
Also they crank out at the pace of about 18 pages per WEEK, on the
weekly shonen's (Jump, Sunday) which comes to 180 pages in 2 months =
to one tankoubon...
>Besides, UY and MI both finished up years ago. I think she
>tries to keep to only a couple of series at a time. But she still
>writes faster (and better) than I ever could. a marvelous
>storyteller. :)
>Beth J.
Well, she doesn't "try", she and everybody else stick to one story
until the editors tell them that it's not making enough fanfare
(money) then they'll go make another story *grin*
PS: "Inu Yasha" the next Takahashi story tries to go more seriously
(with the crazy slapstick stuck in between) and so far (one episode
I've read) it looks like a mix between Fushigi Yuugi and Ranma :)
Bradley Kosowan
>But don't forget how much a manga artist has to do! Look at
> Rumiko Takahashi! She does Lum, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, etc. ALL BY
> HERSELF! If she were to spend the time that american artists do on the
art,
> you'd see a new issue out maybe once a YEAR.
> I, myself, prefer
> the simpler japanese art over the detailed american art. Of course, I'm
not
> saying that japanese art is all fast sketched and undetailed...I mean,
some
> of the mechs and stuff...
>
I guess it all comes down to "philosophies".
While certain companies (Marvel as the main example) have their "Bullpens"
ei artist group, pencil sketch, inking, etc ..... MOST of the Japanese
tend to take the "jack of all trades" or a more indepth "personal"
approach.
There are trade offs to both "viewpoints" ( Bullpen VS Solo artist) so
trying to compare them is like comparing cats to dogs while there may be
superficial similarities there are also major underlying diffirences also !
While I have nothing against some American artists I prefer the openess of
the Japanese style much more due to its elegence with simplicity ,not over
chisled/drawn characters like a certain US artist who needs not mentioning
,while the massive details of Shirrow art really is fantastic !!
Hopefully Comics or Manga in the US will move away from the "Bullpen"
mentality, nothing worse than finding an issue you really like story wise,
artwork is excellent, etc... only to have some other bullpen group show up
next issue and just trash the mood !!!
Ricky the Brick
- Hirioke Samurai cross hatches...