Help the AIF community!
TheCycoONE
AIF comp, simular to the IF comp which you've been running for the past
(5??) years. People like myself say that it will be a huge motivater for
people sitting on the fence to get down and start writing, as well as to
draw a larger audience to our humble community. Those on the con side say
that it's just too much work. So guess who's doing that work. :-) I
suppose it's my own fault... anyway.
I've been working on a web page, and one of the major features of the site
must be the ability for people to vote for what they feel is the best game.
Unfortunatly I have no idea how to use forms for anything but sending email.
What I want to do is create a database (or CGI, I'm open to suggestion) and
store all the results in it for easy management and counting... Ya. How
would I go about doing something like that?
(note: the server I'm using supports MySQL, POP (up to v4), CGI, SSI, and
lots of other nifty stuff)
M. D. Krauss
just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate "adult" IF from the
rest? Literature has a strong tradition of treatingall topics equally.
Books are not rated like movies or video games, and that is as it should
be. The same should apply to IF. Is this really an issue? Are there really
to seperate communities? Can't "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF
Comp?
This is bad.
In answer to your question, yeah, you want a form that posts to a CGI vote
counter. I'm sure there's plenty out there easily available... just do a
web search. No need to roll your own. Since database servers are a bear to
get working and you're needs are simple, I'd suggest avoiding that sort of
thing.
Ross Presser
> Okay, so, I had no idea what AIF was, so I did a web search, and
> now I'm just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate "adult"
> IF from the rest?
"Adult" IF traditionally is sexually explicit. Such works are
frequently treated separately than non-explicit works, in all media (at
least in the English language).
> Literature has a strong tradition of treatingall
> topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or video games, and
> that is as it should be.
Oh really? Then why is Playboy shelved separately from Scientific
American? Why does Henry Miller not appear in a high school library?
Ever hear of the Comstock Act?
> The same should apply to IF. Is this
> really an issue? Are there really to seperate communities? Can't
> "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF Comp?
They could be, but they would be very likely to do poorly. Many judges
wouldn't even play such works out of discomfort or scruples. Others
might find vast sections of prose pointless. In the classic AIF game
Moist, you can spend hours doing actions that are ultimately pointless,
game-wise, because they don't advance your score or help solve the
puzzles; nevertheless, most AIFficionados find the game quite
enjoyable.
--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
"Back stabbing is a sport best played by those that can't stand face
to face with their opponent." - Danny Taddei
Aris Katsaris
Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns90EF69731...@209.155.56.91...
> Others
> might find vast sections of prose pointless. In the classic AIF game
> Moist, you can spend hours doing actions that are ultimately pointless,
> game-wise, because they don't advance your score or help solve the
> puzzles; nevertheless, most AIFficionados find the game quite
> enjoyable.
That's because Moist... sucked (no pun intended)... Admittedly I've
only ever seen two or three works of AIF that *haven't* sucked, but
this only seems to indicate that it's the quality of the game (or lack
thereof) that's important, not whether it's "adult" or not...
Aris Katsaris
Jonathan Penton
> > might find vast sections of prose pointless. In the classic AIF game
> > Moist, you can spend hours doing actions that are ultimately pointless,
> > game-wise, because they don't advance your score or help solve the
> > puzzles; nevertheless, most AIFficionados find the game quite
> > enjoyable.
>
> That's because Moist... sucked (no pun intended)... Admittedly I've
> only ever seen two or three works of AIF that *haven't* sucked, but
> this only seems to indicate that it's the quality of the game (or lack
> thereof) that's important, not whether it's "adult" or not...
But your dislike of Moist (which I share) only emphasizes the point that
there is a natural division between the AIF and mainstream IF community.
Most AIF couldn't make it in the Compitition, but still appeals to AIF
aficionados. It's only natural that AIF should have its own compitition.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
Jonathan Penton
to choose their favorite game, and not rate second-favorite, third-favorite,
ect., I'm sure you can find a shareware form that allows for a simple
vote-and-tally. If you want to have players rank each piece, and you are
completely unfamiliar with forms, you might want to just handle everything
through e-mail. After all, I don't imagine you're talking about thousands of
contestants?
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
"TheCycoONE" <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tmc2mll...@corp.supernews.com...
TheCycoONE
"M. D. Krauss" <MDKr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:20010731063554.4...@home.com...
> Okay, so, I had no idea what AIF was, so I did a web search, and now I'm
> just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate "adult" IF from the
> rest? Literature has a strong tradition of treatingall topics equally.
> Books are not rated like movies or video games, and that is as it should
> be. The same should apply to IF. Is this really an issue? Are there really
> to seperate communities? Can't "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF
> Comp?
Yep, two seperate communities... the other alt.games.xtrek. Instead of the
IF Archive which we occasionally glance at we've been drifting away to
something called the AIF Portal (http://aif.emsai.net) which is a collection
of sites all linked together. I suppose that means there are several games
you haven't been able to play as only a limited number of AIF ever gets on
the board (GNA, Deanna, Moist etc.)
>
> This is bad.
>
Not really, I like it. The AIF community is a small collection of
webmasters, authors, and gamers. It only takes about a months time to learn
the names and some of the personality of all the key contributers, and
everyone supports each other out of necessity to keep the community alive,
everyone plays everyone's game and most people give constructive feedback.
In this community... not to critize it, esp. for those who like anominimnity
is far too large for someone like myself to be comfortable in. And who here
has played every IF game? Many get lost in the background only to be
resurfaced years later if at all. I hear much talk even in here of further
devision. First authors were seperated from gamers, people now want CYOA IF
seperated from regular IF, and graphic games seperated from text games, and
on and on.
Almost every member of the AGX have been to this group, all of them who
remain on the AGX like it better that way. I see some tragedy in that most
of you haven't heard of AIF, and in the descriminating gendre names some web
pages give our games. (Pornography in particular is very much debilitating,
sugesting that are games are nothing but some filth to get perverts with no
better alternative turned on.)
Well that's enough for now. If you'd like to further discuse why AIF is
seperate from IF, perhaps it would be best if you spent some time in our
community, and asked us there.
> In answer to your question, yeah, you want a form that posts to a CGI vote
> counter. I'm sure there's plenty out there easily available... just do a
> web search. No need to roll your own. Since database servers are a bear to
> get working and you're needs are simple, I'd suggest avoiding that sort of
> thing.
I was just e-mailed by a person willing to help me set up a database...
Perhaps I'll do both and see which I like better. :-)
<snip>
TheCycoONE
TheCycoONE
"Jonathan Penton" <unli...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:PFC97.2160$jj1.67...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Moist is actually not that popular as an AIF game. Certainly we talk about
it... it was revolutionary as far as NPC systems were concerned. Actually
if your looking for a good AIF game as far as playing is concerned you'd be
much more happy with games like Peril, GNA, Ideal Hi etc. I feel that your
opinions of the AIF community though the opinion as we are well aware of the
general population, do not accuratly reflect the core group of the AIF
community. (Perhaps not the majority of the players, our sites receive
~1500 unique IP hits a week, but our community size is closer to 20, so
obviously there are a lot of perverts etc. playing our games with no
appeciation for the puzzle aspect at all, hence all the walkthru's lying
around.)
I just thought I'd defend us well I am able to from the condesending views
of the outside world. Again, I invite you to spend some time around the
community. alt.games.xtrek
TheCycoONE
http://cvtg.emsai.net (TheCycoONE's voRTex of TADS Games)
TheCycoONE
to be somewhat of an expert on web databases, so I'm fine now. Thanx.
Still any competition ideas, or if you just want to keep this alive as a
descussion on AIF, feel free to so... I'll be back occasionally to check
things out here.
papillon
>> That's because Moist... sucked (no pun intended)... Admittedly I've
>> only ever seen two or three works of AIF that *haven't* sucked, but
>> this only seems to indicate that it's the quality of the game (or lack
>> thereof) that's important, not whether it's "adult" or not...
>
>But your dislike of Moist (which I share) only emphasizes the point that
>there is a natural division between the AIF and mainstream IF community.
>Most AIF couldn't make it in the Compitition, but still appeals to AIF
>aficionados. It's only natural that AIF should have its own compitition.
Well, there has been at least *somewhat* adult IF entered in the major
competition....
Jonathan Penton
I'm sorry if you feel that you're being patronized. That certainly wasn't my
intent, and I don't think it was anyone else's either.
Charles R.
it is:
How many people under 21 write IF? Is the IF writing community
essentially an "adult" community?
I'm just curious.
- C.
ArKane
> "M. D. Krauss" <MDKr...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:20010731063554.4...@home.com...
>
>> Okay, so, I had no idea what AIF was, so I did a web search, and
>> now I'm just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate
>> "adult" IF from the rest? Literature has a strong tradition of
>> treatingall topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or
>> video games, and that is as it should be. The same should apply
>> to IF. Is this really an issue? Are there really to seperate
>> communities? Can't "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF Comp?
Why separation? For one, it's really hard to get help when one pops
in here to ask for help with coding when you mention adult
interaction of any sort.
Secondly, you get about the same sort of response in RGIF when asking
for help on an AIF game, although I gotta say that most times you'll
get a polite response mentioning AGX as a possible location to get
answers.
Third, playing games isn't on topic here, nor from the average answer
is sex. We've kinda taken the best of RAIF and RGIF and rolled it
into our community where one group serves for both parts.
As to the point about books not being rated like movies, perhaps not
by the industry, but by the consumer they most definately are. Think
about the "racy" or "trashy" romance novels that most people disdain
just because of what they are. All I can say is read Jackie Collins.
Interesting, developed novels that also happen to involve intimate
relations.
Ask someone who has a clue about AIF in this group and you'll most
likely hear a response similar to "amateurish and/or jeuvenile". I
won't debate that, many of the offerings fit that description. There
are better examples, just like mainstream IF. We're developing just
like this community many years ago. Labelled by previous offerings by
some, which is pretty much the same as being rated don't you think?
Enough on that, the reaction is a pet peeve of mine.
> Not really, I like it. The AIF community is a small collection
> of webmasters, authors, and gamers. It only takes about a months
> time to learn the names and some of the personality of all the
> key contributers
Hmmm, this might change what you thought about this contributor up to
this point ;)
and everyone supports each other out of
> necessity to keep the community alive, everyone plays everyone's
Funny, keeping the community alive. AIF has been around since before
AGT. It's almost as old as personal computers, just not quite as
venerable as Adventure ;)
[snip]
> Almost every member of the AGX have been to this group, all
> of them who remain on the AGX like it better that way. I see
Actually, I read both. I pick up what I can from the experts from
this community to help answer questions in another community :)
[snip]
ArKane (packing his pet peeve back into his soapbox)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ArKane http://www.geocities.com/aetus_kane/
ICQ: 78983892
"The mark of Kane is upon me,
and the mark of Kane brings fear."
ArKane
> I have a question that might or might not be relevant here, but
> here it is:
>
> How many people under 21 write IF? Is the IF writing community
> essentially an "adult" community?
>
There's a broad spectrum from 13 or so to 60 odd.
ArKane
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ArKane http://www.geocities.com/aetus_kane/
ICQ: 78983892
"Knowledge of the ArKane is not as relevant
as the application of what you know."
M. D. Krauss
why not just have a "mostly-sucks" comp for second-rate authors and not
exclude non-erotic IF, nor exclude IF erotica from the main comp? Then
maybe people would be encouraged to actually write /Good/ erotic IF.
Personally, I like erotic literature if it's well done, just as I enjoy
any class of literature if it's well done.
M. D. Krauss
Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
> M. D. Krauss <MDKr...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Okay, so, I had no idea what AIF was, so I did a web search, and
> > now I'm just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate "adult"
> > IF from the rest?
>
> "Adult" IF traditionally is sexually explicit. Such works are
> frequently treated separately than non-explicit works, in all media (at
> least in the English language).
Um, no. Occasionally in literature (unfortunately) and usually in other media, which does not equal frequently in all media.
>
> > Literature has a strong tradition of treatingall
> > topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or video games, and
> > that is as it should be.
>
> Oh really? Then why is Playboy shelved separately from Scientific
> American? Why does Henry Miller not appear in a high school library?
> Ever hear of the Comstock Act?
Playboy is a magazine. When I say literature, I mean books. Maybe that's a little picky of me, sorry, but the point remains.
> > The same should apply to IF. Is this
> > really an issue? Are there really to seperate communities? Can't
> > "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF Comp?
>
> They could be, but they would be very likely to do poorly. Many judges
> wouldn't even play such works out of discomfort or scruples. Others
> might find vast sections of prose pointless. In the classic AIF game
> Moist, you can spend hours doing actions that are ultimately pointless,
> game-wise, because they don't advance your score or help solve the
> puzzles; nevertheless, most AIFficionados find the game quite
> enjoyable.
Um, quick poll: anyone here unlikely to play a serious work of IF just because it has intentionally erotic content?
If the erotic prose IS pointless, that would be another matter... but if the piece is well done, aiming to arouse sexually won't spoil it. If you've followed "mainstream" IF (whatever that is) you know that some of the most powerfull and exciting "games" put out, and winners of past comps, could fit your above description. One could say that from a gaming perspective, almost the entirety of Photopia was pointless prose and/or dialogue.
M. D. Krauss
M. D. Krauss <MDKr...@home.com> wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2001 14:22:08 GMT
> Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Literature has a strong tradition of treatingall
> > > topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or video games, and
> > > that is as it should be.
> >
> > Oh really? Then why is Playboy shelved separately from Scientific
> > American? Why does Henry Miller not appear in a high school library?
> > Ever hear of the Comstock Act?
>
> Playboy is a magazine. When I say literature, I mean books. Maybe that's
a little picky of me, sorry, but the point remains.
Oops, sorry almost missed something important here. The Comstock Act was
repealed, and Henry Miller appeared in my High School library. If he
wasn't in yours, well, I'm very sorry about that.
-Matthew
M. D. Krauss
now... :)
On Wed, 01 Aug 2001 07:04:41 GMT
ArKane <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
> TheCycoONE was overheard typing about:
>
> > "M. D. Krauss" <MDKr...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010731063554.4...@home.com...
> >
> >> Okay, so, I had no idea what AIF was, so I did a web search, and
> >> now I'm just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate
> >> "adult" IF from the rest? Literature has a strong tradition of
> >> treatingall topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or
> >> video games, and that is as it should be. The same should apply
> >> to IF. Is this really an issue? Are there really to seperate
> >> communities? Can't "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF Comp?
>
> Why separation? For one, it's really hard to get help when one pops
> in here to ask for help with coding when you mention adult
> interaction of any sort.
I've never seen such a request... But I find this statement hard to
swallow. This has always seemed a very open group of people to me. I
certainly wouldn't hesitate to help out if I could. I haven't seen any
discouraging replys to the question about CGI that started this thread.
> Secondly, you get about the same sort of response in RGIF when asking
> for help on an AIF game, although I gotta say that most times you'll
> get a polite response mentioning AGX as a possible location to get
> answers.
This sounds more like a result of seperation then a reason for it. If
people interested in IF-based erotica are all off in a seperate community
with their games squirreled away where we don't know about them, then we
won't have a chance to play them, and therefor won't know enough to offer
usefull assistance. Therefor, and unfortunately, a polite pointer toward
AGX is the best that can be offered.
> Third, playing games isn't on topic here, nor from the average answer
> is sex. We've kinda taken the best of RAIF and RGIF and rolled it
> into our community where one group serves for both parts.
The division between game playing and creating is a natural structural
division. Lumping them together is confusing and silly. What's more,
splitting the groups doesn't prevent people from reading and writing in
both -- it just provides a clean sorting of topics.
> As to the point about books not being rated like movies, perhaps not
> by the industry, but by the consumer they most definately are. Think
> about the "racy" or "trashy" romance novels that most people disdain
> just because of what they are. All I can say is read Jackie Collins.
> Interesting, developed novels that also happen to involve intimate
> relations.
Those novels you speak of actually /are/ trashy. I've read Jackie Collins.
She can't write and her stories are tedious. I can't speak for everyone,
but I think in the literary world, those novels are disdained because they
are second or third rate writing with nothing of value to offer. I
remember seeing a news bit once where the whole news room staff
collaborated on writing just such a novel. The one rule was, "write as
badly as you can". They had it published, and it went straight to the best
seller list.
> Ask someone who has a clue about AIF in this group and you'll most
> likely hear a response similar to "amateurish and/or jeuvenile". I
> won't debate that, many of the offerings fit that description. There
> are better examples, just like mainstream IF. We're developing just
> like this community many years ago. Labelled by previous offerings by
> some, which is pretty much the same as being rated don't you think?
If you were a part of this community, we could all develop faster, feeding
off each others ideas. There are countless genres, and it makes no since
at all to split one off and seperate it. I get a serious vibe of dejection
from everything you and others from RGX have posted in this thread, yet
nobody has said anything even remotely rude or dismissive of your work. I
suspect this sense of dejection comes from being walled off. Okay, I can't
speak for everyone here, but I for one would like to invite you all in and
merge these communities. Anybody second that?
> Enough on that, the reaction is a pet peeve of mine.
What reaction? You mean the "you are our equals and should be treated as
such" reaction?
> > Not really, I like it. The AIF community is a small collection
> > of webmasters, authors, and gamers. It only takes about a months
> > time to learn the names and some of the personality of all the
> > key contributers
Sounds a lot like this community here...
> Hmmm, this might change what you thought about this contributor up to
> this point ;)
>
> and everyone supports each other out of
> > necessity to keep the community alive, everyone plays everyone's
That too.
<snip>
Okay, getting off /my/ soap box now.
Best regards,
-Matthew
Alexander Deubelbeiss
Charles R. schrieb in Nachricht ...
>I have a question that might or might not be relevant here, but here
>it is:
>
>How many people under 21 write IF? Is the IF writing community
>essentially an "adult" community?
>
Jonathan Penton
None. You're probably familiar with America's bizarre alcohol laws, but
despite those, an eighteen-year-old American is legally an adult, end of
story. Frequently, adult sites, movies, and magazines in the US will declare
"You must be 21 to enter/purchase/read." As far as I can tell, this is only
done to increase interest among 18-20 year olds.
Jonathan Penton
but obviously AIF aficionados do not. Because of their different interests
and standards, it is natural for them to have their own compitition.
I've played AIF, and my general thought was, "this is clever, but not to my
tastes." OK, so why should AIF games be rated according to my tastes? They
should be rated by people who enjoy AIF. I do not imply that AIF players
have lower standards than the average IF player. They have different
interests than the average IF player.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
> So, um, AIF should have it's own comp because it mostly just sucks? Then
> why not just have a "mostly-sucks" comp for second-rate authors and not
> exclude non-erotic IF, nor exclude IF erotica from the main comp? Then
> maybe people would be encouraged to actually write /Good/ erotic IF.
> Personally, I like erotic literature if it's well done, just as I enjoy
> any class of literature if it's well done.
>
Jonathan Penton
> > >> now I'm just irked. Why on earth would you need to seperate
> > >> "adult" IF from the rest? Literature has a strong tradition of
> > >> treatingall topics equally. Books are not rated like movies or
> > >> video games, and that is as it should be. The same should apply
> > >> to IF. Is this really an issue? Are there really to seperate
> > >> communities? Can't "AIF" works be entered in the normal IF Comp?
> >
> > Why separation? For one, it's really hard to get help when one pops
> > in here to ask for help with coding when you mention adult
> > interaction of any sort.
>
> I've never seen such a request... But I find this statement hard to
> swallow. This has always seemed a very open group of people to me. I
> certainly wouldn't hesitate to help out if I could. I haven't seen any
> discouraging replys to the question about CGI that started this thread.
I've only been reading this group for a short while, but I very much agree.
The answers to the CGI question were a little vague, but so was the
question.
Jackie Collins is a special case. Perhaps a better example of ArKane's point
is V. C. Andrews (the real one, not her "ghost"writers). Her novels were
insanely trashy, but very well-written. They were not of interest to the
literary community, and were universally panned by reviewers. Yet their
structure was original, their dialogue was crisp, and their symbols were
wild and profound.
Or, take the Star Trek novels. No one's going to review them. But some Star
Trek novel writers, Diane Duane for example, could easily hold thier own
against the literary community. But they aren't interested. Their interests
are unusual, they write for unusual interests. As the AIF community.
> > Ask someone who has a clue about AIF in this group and you'll most
> > likely hear a response similar to "amateurish and/or jeuvenile". I
> > won't debate that, many of the offerings fit that description. There
> > are better examples, just like mainstream IF. We're developing just
> > like this community many years ago. Labelled by previous offerings by
> > some, which is pretty much the same as being rated don't you think?
>
> If you were a part of this community, we could all develop faster, feeding
> off each others ideas. There are countless genres, and it makes no since
> at all to split one off and seperate it. I get a serious vibe of dejection
> from everything you and others from RGX have posted in this thread, yet
> nobody has said anything even remotely rude or dismissive of your work. I
> suspect this sense of dejection comes from being walled off. Okay, I can't
> speak for everyone here, but I for one would like to invite you all in and
> merge these communities. Anybody second that?
While I agree that AIF needs its own compitition, I would be thrilled to see
AIF programmers share their expertise with the larger IF community, and
vice-versa.
> > Enough on that, the reaction is a pet peeve of mine.
>
> What reaction? You mean the "you are our equals and should be treated as
> such" reaction?
>
> > > Not really, I like it. The AIF community is a small collection
> > > of webmasters, authors, and gamers. It only takes about a months
> > > time to learn the names and some of the personality of all the
> > > key contributers
>
> Sounds a lot like this community here...
>
> > Hmmm, this might change what you thought about this contributor up to
> > this point ;)
> >
> > and everyone supports each other out of
> > > necessity to keep the community alive, everyone plays everyone's
>
> That too.
>
> <snip>
>
> Okay, getting off /my/ soap box now.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -Matthew
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
TheCycoONE
as I mentioned is no longer relevant as I've received the help I need from
another sorce. (well actually I'm doing a database.) In the AIF community
we are much more conserned with Player/NPC interaction, something which is
considered of much less importance in the IF community, well in the IF
community there is much more attention payed to creating challenging and
unique puzles, well AIF gamers are often running for a walkthru at the least
sign of a challenge. Of coarse in either gendre there are exceptions,
NewKid for example seems an alround good programmer who would score good in
any competition, but they are the exceptions.
M. D. Krauss
subjective term, but it was not *my* term. If you read the quoted text, it
was someone else who introduced that word, and in fact an AIF aficionado
who essentially agreed with it, saying "Most AIF couldn't make it in the
Compitition."
I for one have never tried any AIF, and am not entitled to an opinion as
to it's quality. What I was saying here is that if the AIF community feels
that their work isn't good enough to compete in the regular comp, there is
a serious problem there. They are being excluded. They should be welcomed
in the comp and I feel that if their work is under par, it will probably
quickly catch up.
Best regards,
-Matthew
M. D. Krauss
"Jonathan Penton" <unli...@flash.net> wrote:
[Most of a very good message from Jonathan Penton, as well as huge amounts of quoted text from myself and others, snipped ruthelessly]
> Jackie Collins is a special case. Perhaps a better example of ArKane's point
> is V. C. Andrews (the real one, not her "ghost"writers). Her novels were
> insanely trashy, but very well-written. They were not of interest to the
> literary community, and were universally panned by reviewers. Yet their
> structure was original, their dialogue was crisp, and their symbols were
> wild and profound.
>
> Or, take the Star Trek novels. No one's going to review them. But some Star
> Trek novel writers, Diane Duane for example, could easily hold thier own
> against the literary community. But they aren't interested. Their interests
> are unusual, they write for unusual interests. As the AIF community.
I never tried V. C. Andrews. My older sister was in to her, and that's all it took to turn me off :)
But, you make a good general point. Still, this is not the normal literary society, and we can afford to be better then them. In fact, we can't afford not to. IF in general is far too small a field to be picky over genres and sub-genres. I for one welcome any contribution!
> While I agree that AIF needs its own compitition, I would be thrilled to see
> AIF programmers share their expertise with the larger IF community, and
> vice-versa.
Best,
-Matthew
Jonathan Penton
Matthew Russotto
Jonathan Penton <unli...@flash.net> wrote:
>> Charles R. schrieb in Nachricht ...
>> >I have a question that might or might not be relevant here, but here
>> >it is:
>> >
>> >How many people under 21 write IF? Is the IF writing community
>> >essentially an "adult" community?
>> >
>> For which country is the magic number 21 relevant?
>
>None. You're probably familiar with America's bizarre alcohol laws, but
>despite those, an eighteen-year-old American is legally an adult, end of
>story.
But if you kill someone, you get to be an adult earlier.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
=====
Get Caught Reading, Go To Jail!
A message from the Association of American Publishers
Free Dmitry Sklyarov! DMCA delanda est!
http://www.freedmitry.org
Jonathan Penton
> >> >it is:
> >> >
> >> >How many people under 21 write IF? Is the IF writing community
> >> >essentially an "adult" community?
> >> >
> >> For which country is the magic number 21 relevant?
> >
> >None. You're probably familiar with America's bizarre alcohol laws, but
> >despite those, an eighteen-year-old American is legally an adult, end of
> >story.
>
> But if you kill someone, you get to be an adult earlier.
Sometimes. The odds of adulthood are better if you're black.
Michael Laurino
wrote:
>are second or third rate writing with nothing of value to offer. I
>remember seeing a news bit once where the whole news room staff
>collaborated on writing just such a novel. The one rule was, "write as
>badly as you can". They had it published, and it went straight to the best
>seller list.
>
Naked Came The Stranger by "Penelope Ashe"
Aris Katsaris
> In the AIF community
> we are much more conserned with Player/NPC interaction, something which is
> considered of much less importance in the IF community,
<g> May I guess you haven't played Galatea?
> well in the IF
> community there is much more attention payed to creating challenging and
> unique puzles,
<g> And may I also guess that you've not been following recent IF trends?
;-)
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
> "Suck" is a subjective term. You consider most AIF sucky and/or pointless,
> but obviously AIF aficionados do not. Because of their different interests
> and standards, it is natural for them to have their own compitition.
>
> I've played AIF, and my general thought was, "this is clever, but not to
my
> tastes." OK, so why should AIF games be rated according to my tastes? They
> should be rated by people who enjoy AIF. I do not imply that AIF players
> have lower standards than the average IF player.
Hmm... To some extent this may be true, but I'd say that all AIF games which
*I* have enjoyed (such as Ideal High), seems to have been pretty much
universally enjoyed by the AIF community as well. The opposite does not
apply....
This tells me that it (in great part atleast) *does* have to do with
lower/higher
standards, and not simply 'different' ones...
Different tastes do exist ofcourse, but it seems to me that they also
already
exist in the rest of the IF community - some of us like puzzles, some of us
don't - some of us like SF, others fantasy, others neither or both. I don't
see
why the AIF/non-AIF division must be treated differently than any other.
Aris Katsaris
Jaap van der Velde
wrote:
> Um, quick poll: anyone here unlikely to play a serious work of
> IF just because it has intentionally erotic content?
No, but most works of IF that just center around erotic content,
without offering much more, bore (me) easily unless you started
reading them for that content in the first place. So I can
understand the argument that AIF isn't for everyone and I'm not
just talking age here.
But I do think the IF community has a lot offer for AIF readers
and writers, on the possibilities of the medium as well as general
discussion about story devices, plot, etc. Unless AIF wants to go
down the same road as erotic film (senseless porn with no story,
just hardcore sex) these points deserve serious attention and
might actually pull in some extra readers who don't mind the
erotic content, but want something more... 9 1/2 weeks still
sucked as a movie in my opinion but the story and more true to
nature characters sure did get it a bigger audience. (sure,
having Kim Basinger in there helped, but i digress...)
Now, I am not saying that AIF writers, by seperating their
community from IF writers, are doomed to produce pulp, as if the
advice of 'clean' IF writers would be any better than their own
ideas on IF. But a broader basis for discussion seems like a
good idea, especially in a community as small as this one already
is...
Greetings,
JAAP.
TheCycoONE
available on my web page (http://cvtg.emsai.net)
TheCycoONE
Daryl McCullough
says...
>> But if you kill someone, you get to be an adult earlier.
>
>Sometimes. The odds of adulthood are better if you're black.
In the cartoon "Tom the Dancing Bug" from a few years back
(paraphrased)
...12 year old Billy Smith will be tried as an adult.
In a related story, the district attorney has chosen
to try 90 year old Agnus Howard as a 20 year old
black man.
--
Daryl McCullough
CoGenTex, Inc.
Ithaca, NY
Greg Ewing
>
> Player/NPC interaction, something which is
> considered of much less importance in the IF community
On the contrary, it's considered very important by
many of us, and is frequently discussed here!
The reason you tend to see more puzzles and less
NPC interaction in many games is that programming
puzzles is relatively easy whereas programming
good NPCs is extremely hard. We're always on
the lookout for techniques to make our NPCs
better...
--
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand
To get my email address, please visit my web page:
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg
Kathy I. Morgan
That depends on whether you're the victim or the accused.
--
Kathy
Magnus Olsson
Jonathan Penton <unli...@flash.net> wrote:
>But your dislike of Moist (which I share) only emphasizes the point that
>there is a natural division between the AIF and mainstream IF community.
>Most AIF couldn't make it in the Compitition, but still appeals to AIF
>aficionados. It's only natural that AIF should have its own compitition.
My $0.02 worth:
I'm not sure the division between AIF and "normal" IF is "natural",
nor am I sure that it's "natural" to divide non-interactive books - or
any kind of art - into two classes porn/non-porn depending on sexual
explicitness.
But in the case of AIF vs. IF that's the way things *are*, by
historical accident if you like - there *are* two distinct communities
and you can't just join them like that. You can try to encourage
increased interaction between the communities; at least when it comes
to technical matters (rpogramming, design techniques, writing
techniques) this would definitely be a good thing.
However, I think that today the two communities are so far apart due
to their separate histories (I'm not very familiar at all with the AIF
scene so this may be very well be wrong, though) that you can't just
join them.
As for holding a special contest for AIF, I can't see why that would
be any worse than all the specialized mini-comps held in this community.
Oh, and of course there are legal aspects of sexually explicit
material: censorship laws and laws about distribution, sales and
marketing. I'm not sure how much these laws apply to freeware,
text-only IF, though.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, m...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~mol ------
Adam Thornton
>But in the case of AIF vs. IF that's the way things *are*, by
>historical accident if you like - there *are* two distinct communities
>and you can't just join them like that. You can try to encourage
>increased interaction between the communities; at least when it comes
>to technical matters (rpogramming, design techniques, writing
>techniques) this would definitely be a good thing.
And it's going to be very rough.
A couple years ago I went through an AIF phase. I mean, hey, I like
porn, being a red-blooded American male and all, and I type pretty fast
with my left hand, so...
Er.
Anyway.
I hung out for a while on alt.games.xtrek. I finally left after I was
met with downright hostile responses when I tried to suggest--I thought
gently--that if you were producing a text-only game, and your text was
the only medium that would have an impact on the player, that it might
be well worth your while to get your spelling and grammar correct, and
maybe to make the game's default messages slightly more clever and less
canned than the stock design system responses.
In retrospect, I realize the flaw in my assumption: text *isn't* the
only medium you have in a traditional xtrek game. In fact, the *more*
important piece of conveying the experience is already in the player's
head: the player, if an xtrek aficionado, already has a very good idea
of what Deanna Troi looks like naked.
Therefore:
"Troi is here! She is naked!!" works nearly as well as a finely-crafted
paragraph of erotica detailing Troi's charms, which I will spare you.
Maybe better, because if I write a detailed paragraph it's only going to
get in the way of the fantasy in your head.
But anyway, it got me in a snit, and I left. More power to anyone who
tries to bridge the gap.
Adam
M. D. Krauss
ad...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) wrote:
[Adam's Libido Snipped] :)
> I hung out for a while on alt.games.xtrek. I finally left after I was
> met with downright hostile responses when I tried to suggest--I thought
> gently--that if you were producing a text-only game, and your text was
> the only medium that would have an impact on the player, that it might
> be well worth your while to get your spelling and grammar correct, and
> maybe to make the game's default messages slightly more clever and less
> canned than the stock design system responses.
>
> In retrospect, I realize the flaw in my assumption: text *isn't* the
> only medium you have in a traditional xtrek game. In fact, the *more*
> important piece of conveying the experience is already in the player's
> head: the player, if an xtrek aficionado, already has a very good idea
> of what Deanna Troi looks like naked.
>
> Therefore:
>
> "Troi is here! She is naked!!" works nearly as well as a finely-crafted
> paragraph of erotica detailing Troi's charms, which I will spare you.
> Maybe better, because if I write a detailed paragraph it's only going to
> get in the way of the fantasy in your head.
I strongly disagree! I have an excellent mental image of Deanna Troi naked
(actually, I prefer Beverly Crusher...) but nonetheless, a nice juicy
descriptive paragraph would be highly arousing, while the words "Troi is
here! She is naked!!" just kinda make me chuckle...
Regards,
-Matthew
(Is there really IF about naked Star Trek characters?!?! Holy Cow! And I
wasted my adolescent years in alt.sex.stories...)
TheCycoONE
"M. D. Krauss" <MDKr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:20010803144028.0...@home.com...
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC)
> ad...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) wrote:
>
> [Adam's Libido Snipped] :)
>
> > I hung out for a while on alt.games.xtrek. I finally left after I was
> > met with downright hostile responses when I tried to suggest--I thought
> > gently--that if you were producing a text-only game, and your text was
> > the only medium that would have an impact on the player, that it might
> > be well worth your while to get your spelling and grammar correct, and
> > maybe to make the game's default messages slightly more clever and less
> > canned than the stock design system responses.
> >
to AIF. I find writting "adult" sceens a terrible chore and leave them to
the last minute. When writting in this newsgroup I made a suggestion that
perhaps people should be able to interact with players more then just "Ask
man about rock" and got slamed for a supposibly sarcastic and ignorant
complaint... I made the mistake of critizing grammer in the AIF group too,
but by that time I was already a large part of the community, so after I
appologised other key members drove the author who retaliated against me to
appologise. Perhaps if I stayed here longer I wouldn't have felt so bad,
but I just wanted to leave.
> > In retrospect, I realize the flaw in my assumption: text *isn't* the
> > only medium you have in a traditional xtrek game. In fact, the *more*
> > important piece of conveying the experience is already in the player's
> > head: the player, if an xtrek aficionado, already has a very good idea
> > of what Deanna Troi looks like naked.
> >
> > Therefore:
> >
> > "Troi is here! She is naked!!" works nearly as well as a finely-crafted
> > paragraph of erotica detailing Troi's charms, which I will spare you.
> > Maybe better, because if I write a detailed paragraph it's only going to
>
> > get in the way of the fantasy in your head.
>
> I strongly disagree! I have an excellent mental image of Deanna Troi naked
> (actually, I prefer Beverly Crusher...) but nonetheless, a nice juicy
> descriptive paragraph would be highly arousing, while the words "Troi is
> here! She is naked!!" just kinda make me chuckle...
>
> Regards,
>
> -Matthew
>
> (Is there really IF about naked Star Trek characters?!?! Holy Cow! And I
> wasted my adolescent years in alt.sex.stories...)
Yep, the first popular AIF were all Star Trek (or XTrek)... that's why
people got confused and stole the XTrek newsgroup from the nonadult game of
the same name... ha! kind of amuzing in retrospect. They're all lousy games
though. I wouldn't recommend playing any of the old XTrek games. Not "A
night with troi" or "A night with Beaverly Crusher" about the best is SGX
and even it's an old AGT game I couldn't be bothered to complete (not that I
have anything against AGT, I've already made that mistake, just every game
ever made using it.)
mattF
news:<9kee6r$qml$1...@news.fsf.net>...
> But anyway, it got me in a snit, and I left. More power to anyone who
> tries to bridge the gap.
Not to cast myself as the messiah of AIF-IF relations or anything, but
I've been working hard on "Stiffy Makane 2 (electric boogaloo)"; a
powerful and thought-provoking work which i'm hoping will unite our
two communities with its sensitivity and charm... I'm following a plot
thread that struck me as the logical choice, following on, as it does,
from the first game...
You're in jail! Holy sh*t!
Your uniform is on the bunk so you must be... IN DEEP SH*T!!
You're cellmate Bubba is here!
Check out those pecs! Uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh!
His (spoiler) is (spoiler) and (spoiler)!
Your (spoiler) looks like a good place for him to put something!
etc, etc...
Adam Thornton
mattF <lust_fo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[Stiffy Makane II: Electric Boogaloo]
>You're in jail! Holy sh*t!
>Your uniform is on the bunk so you must be... IN DEEP SH*T!!
>You're cellmate Bubba is here!
>Check out those pecs! Uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh!
>His (spoiler) is (spoiler) and (spoiler)!
>Your (spoiler) looks like a good place for him to put something!
I quiver with anticipation.
Even though the "Stiffy-explores-the-other-facets-of-his-sexuality"
aspect is something I plan to cover in my forthcoming opus, "Stiffy
Makane: The Undiscovered Country," which will simultaneously combine a
traditional X-Trek setting with Stiffy's acceptance of--and joy in--his
own homosexuality[0].
It will, of course, have the depth of character and narrative quality we
have all come to expect from Stiffy Makane and his productions.
And, Mark Ryan, if you're reading this, dude, I'm sorry. But you
created one of the iconic figures of our time.
Adam
[0] I guess I really mean "bisexuality." Although if my energy holds
up, I mean "omnisexuality."
TheCycoONE
TheCycoONE
Branko Collin
wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC)
>ad...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) wrote:
>
>> "Troi is here! She is naked!!" works nearly as well as a finely-crafted
>> paragraph of erotica detailing Troi's charms, which I will spare you.
>> Maybe better, because if I write a detailed paragraph it's only going to
>> get in the way of the fantasy in your head.
>
>I strongly disagree! I have an excellent mental image of Deanna Troi naked
>(actually, I prefer Beverly Crusher...) but nonetheless, a nice juicy
>descriptive paragraph would be highly arousing, while the words "Troi is
>here! She is naked!!" just kinda make me chuckle...
But a highly descriptive paragraph might just as easily turn you off
(or make you chuckle).
If we wanted all the blanks filled in, we would watch tv.
I guess author and player have to meet each other somewhere halfway,
but that is another discussion.
--
branko collin
"mooi woord, verorberen, help me eraen herinneren
da'k het vaeker gebruik"
izak van langevelde in n.e.s.
TheCycoONE
"M. D. Krauss" <MDKr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:20010801204722.0...@home.com...
Yep, I've been trying. For my current project, an Adrift game, I've come in
contact with wrtters from both AIF and IF Adrift games. I've looked at
sorce code from both sides and have not been descrimnitory as to whom I've
aided... Then Adrift is kind of creating a community of itself too isn't it.
TheCycoONE
Joe Mason
>I've been working hard on "Stiffy Makane 2 (electric boogaloo)"; a
>powerful and thought-provoking work which i'm hoping will unite our
>two communities with its sensitivity and charm... I'm following a plot
So is "Stiffy Makane: The Undiscovered Country" a prequel, then?
Joe
Joe Mason
John Colagioia
But not in the way you mean it...
TheCycoONE
"John Colagioia" <JCola...@csi.com> wrote in message
news:3B6EB0F0...@csi.com...
way I ment it? Get out of my head! Oh, and then explain how it was ment to
be taken.
John Colagioia
just got it on my newsserver...)
TheCycoONE wrote:
> "John Colagioia" <JCola...@csi.com
> > wrote in message news:3B6EB0F0...@csi.com...
> See it's sentences like that that make me confused. How do you know what
> way I ment it?
Heh...I'm THAT good...
> Get out of my head!
Nah. No magic involved. "Reading tone" in text medium isn't nearly as hard
some people will tell you...
> Oh, and then explain how it was ment to
> be taken.
First rule of writing: Show, don't tell:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/agt/stiffy2.zip
and:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/stiffmst.z5
Source for the latter at:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/source/inform/stiffmst.inf
Don't say you weren't warned. You probably weren't, in all likelihood, but
just don't tell anyone you weren't...or consider this the aforementioned
warning, I suppose.
Admittedly, that's not what they MEAN when they tell you "show, don't tell,"
but that interpretation should suffice for the purposes of this example...
Adam Hendine
pun? Not intended I assure you):
I started work on learning TADS after playing Moist which was to be
fair a pretty average kinda game, but my motivation for playing it was
-uh- organic rather than cereberal if you get my drift.
Being an absolute pornfiend at the time I thought the ability to write
down some fantasies in interactive format was a splendid innovation
and learned a bit of TADS as a result.
I released a short sex-based game a few months ago, and was encouraged
enough by the responses (over generous in my estimation!) to write a
full fledged game: during the writing of which the initial
testosterone fuelled rush wore off and I actually tried to instil a
bit of plot etc into it. Feedback to that has been pretty good, which
gets me to the point of this rambling missive:
The divide between AIF and IF is largely an artificial one in my
opinion. The divide is really between IF and badly written AIF, in
the same way that there is a divide between mainstream films and
hardcore pornography- the latter being fun in its own way but good for
one purpose only.
Surely an ideal compromise position would be genuinely "adult" IF -
not just in the sense of porn. A lot of IF seems to be aimed at
mature players so - in the same way that some mainstream films/books
can include sexual situations as part of the plot- why can't IF
include such things *if* the plot demands it / would be enhanced by
it?
What AIF seems to have that IF (often) lacks is the development of
non-player-characters beyond simply being keys/clues to puzzles. Good
AIF relies upon developed characters to make the sex part worthwhile
(admittedly bad AIF doesn't do this so much!).
Combining the best features of AIF and IF would surely only enhance
both, no? IF fans who object to the shoddiness of some AIF would have
less to complain about and those with moral objections simply need not
play games that contain sexual content.
Just some thoughts- I'd appreciate any feedback either via this group
or email. At present I'm veering more toward the IF than the AIF in
my own writing but the IF world seems a bit bigger and scarier than
the AIF world for a newbie writer to get noticed in.
Adam Hendine
(Sticking his head out into the real world for once)
Branko Collin
wrote:
>Surely an ideal compromise position would be genuinely "adult" IF -
>not just in the sense of porn. A lot of IF seems to be aimed at
>mature players so - in the same way that some mainstream films/books
>can include sexual situations as part of the plot- why can't IF
>include such things *if* the plot demands it / would be enhanced by
>it?
I see no reasons why it cannot.
John Colagioia
[...]
> What AIF seems to have that IF (often) lacks is the development of
> non-player-characters beyond simply being keys/clues to puzzles. Good
> AIF relies upon developed characters to make the sex part worthwhile
> (admittedly bad AIF doesn't do this so much!).
I, in fact, shudder to ask my question, as I can imagine the fallout.
Understand, first, that I mean no offense to you, the AIF community, or
anyone in it. However, this talk of lifelike NPCs caused me to download a
random sampling of games, in order to see what features could be
sto--err...borrowed. What I found, instead, was that the "development"
wasn't significantly different than the "signpost puzzle NPC" problem you
speak of. That is, the vast majority of NPCs are there so you, the
player, can figure out how to stimulate them.
Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not the
case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
[...]
Adam Thornton
John Colagioia <JCola...@csi.com> wrote:
>Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not the
>case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
>intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
I could point to _Blow Job Drifter_, with its wry commentary on the
emptiness at the core of postmodern life, about the futility of cynicism
itself. But no one would believe me, and everyone would insist that it
was just a game about solving puzzles to get blown.
Adam
Jonathan Penton
news:751e13f5.01081...@posting.google.com...
I would *love* to see a sex scene rendered in mainstream IF, centered around
character development and plot enhancement. Sex is an incredibly powerful
symbol, of course, and there are so many ways to use it -- did anyone
besides me consider the kiss at the end of Shades of Grey a bit
anticlimatic? I suspect few people ever saw _Safe_ with Julianne Moore, but
in the beginning of that movie, sex is used to show the distance between a
married couple, rather than emotional attachment. One could easily imagine a
work of IF in which one develops the player character by choosing whom to
fuck.
> What AIF seems to have that IF (often) lacks is the development of
> non-player-characters beyond simply being keys/clues to puzzles. Good
> AIF relies upon developed characters to make the sex part worthwhile
> (admittedly bad AIF doesn't do this so much!).
>
> Combining the best features of AIF and IF would surely only enhance
> both, no? IF fans who object to the shoddiness of some AIF would have
> less to complain about and those with moral objections simply need not
> play games that contain sexual content.
>
> Just some thoughts- I'd appreciate any feedback either via this group
> or email. At present I'm veering more toward the IF than the AIF in
> my own writing but the IF world seems a bit bigger and scarier than
> the AIF world for a newbie writer to get noticed in.
I guess. I mean, I haven't finished learning TADS yet, so I'm in no position
to say. But I'm betting it's a lot easier to be recognized as an IF writer
than as a novelist.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
Adam Hendine
>
> I, in fact, shudder to ask my question, as I can imagine the fallout.
> Understand, first, that I mean no offense to you, the AIF community, or
> anyone in it.
:) I feel like Don Corleone. It's a sad reflection on the state of
newsgroup postings that people (myself included! You should see the
disclaimers I attached to a post I made disrespecting Star Trek as an
artform) need to be so cautious about expressing potentially
controversial opinions. No offense taken I assure you (I'm very hard
to offend).
> However, this talk of lifelike NPCs caused me to download a
> random sampling of games, in order to see what features could be
> sto--err...borrowed. What I found, instead, was that the "development"
> wasn't significantly different than the "signpost puzzle NPC" problem you
> speak of. That is, the vast majority of NPCs are there so you, the
> player, can figure out how to stimulate them.
>
> Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not the
> case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
> intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
GNA by NewKid is pretty good- the character are of course there to
"enjoy" but at least show diversity of personality & motive. I'd also
blushingly ask you to try out my own "Peril in the Skies" where I hope
the characters come across as believable individuals (within the
genre) rather than simply obstacles to overcome.
If I am wrong, I retire shamefaced...
Adam Hendine
> I could point to _Blow Job Drifter_, with its wry commentary on the
> emptiness at the core of postmodern life, about the futility of cynicism
> itself. But no one would believe me, and everyone would insist that it
> was just a game about solving puzzles to get blown.
ROTFL (as you computer people say)
Adam (not that Adam, another Adam)
Aris Katsaris
> > random sampling of games, in order to see what features could be
> > sto--err...borrowed. What I found, instead, was that the "development"
> > wasn't significantly different than the "signpost puzzle NPC" problem
you
> > speak of. That is, the vast majority of NPCs are there so you, the
> > player, can figure out how to stimulate them.
> >
> > Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not
the
> > case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
> > intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
>
> GNA by NewKid is pretty good- the character are of course there to
> "enjoy" but at least show diversity of personality & motive. I'd also
> blushingly ask you to try out my own "Peril in the Skies" where I hope
> the characters come across as believable individuals (within the
> genre) rather than simply obstacles to overcome.
Have you ever tried to play Galatea, Muse, Photopia, Being Andrew Plotkin,
Ramesses, Heroine's Mantle, Jigsaw, or any other game which is well-regarded
in these newsgroups?
Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
"Peril in
the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You have
*no
idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of "Peril
in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive fiction...
Aris Katsaris
Branko Collin
wrote:
>The divide between AIF and IF is largely an artificial one in my
>opinion. The divide is really between IF and badly written AIF, in
>the same way that there is a divide between mainstream films and
>hardcore pornography- the latter being fun in its own way but good for
>one purpose only.
>
>Surely an ideal compromise position would be genuinely "adult" IF -
>not just in the sense of porn. A lot of IF seems to be aimed at
>mature players so - in the same way that some mainstream films/books
>can include sexual situations as part of the plot- why can't IF
>include such things *if* the plot demands it / would be enhanced by
>it?
Jonathan Penton gave an example of sex for plot advancement that made
me think, and I came up with this: sex for plot advancement is made
for plot advancement, not to arouse people. This distinction may have
been blurred by movie makers and book writers who realised that sex
sells and who have since been walking a fine line between sex for plot
advancement and porn.
Are you talking about all forms of sex, or only the pleasant ones,
that make you feel better _and_ carry the plot along? If you are not,
the type of games you would like to see would probably do little to
advance the cause of mature AIF.
Good AIF to me seems to be AIF that reaches its goal. And to me it
would seem that that goal is not one of intellectual enjoyment.
Adam Hendine
> Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
> "Peril in
> the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You have
> *no
> idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of "Peril
> in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive fiction...
>
> Aris Katsaris
Sorry. Bye.
Adam Hendine
> Have you ever tried to play Galatea, Muse, Photopia, Being Andrew Plotkin,
> Ramesses, Heroine's Mantle, Jigsaw, or any other game which is well-regarded
> in these newsgroups?
>
> Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
> "Peril in
> the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You have
> *no
> idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of "Peril
> in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive fiction...
>
> Aris Katsaris
Sorry for my ignorance *genuinely*- it has been a long while since I
played IF and my comments were based on my experiences then rather
than now which is a pretty poor basis to make judgements from. I
guess I really should pepper my posts with apologetic disclaimers
after all.
The last games I played used actors merely as "You can't leave without
paying for the <<blank>>" sort of roles, with one or two
conversational topics and maybe an item to get from them. It seems I
have some research to do before I foolishly open my mouth again :(
The games you mention- I have heard them mentioned around & would love
to see them in action in order to learn from them how to improve my
own writing. Where is the best place to download them?
"Knock ya silly" eh?
Adam
Aris Katsaris
>
> > Have you ever tried to play Galatea, Muse, Photopia, Being Andrew
Plotkin,
> > Ramesses, Heroine's Mantle, Jigsaw, or any other game which is
well-regarded
> > in these newsgroups?
> >
> > Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
> > "Peril in
> > the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You
have
> > *no
> > idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of
"Peril
> > in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive
fiction...
> >
> > Aris Katsaris
>
> Sorry for my ignorance *genuinely*- it has been a long while since I
> played IF and my comments were based on my experiences then rather
> than now which is a pretty poor basis to make judgements from. I
> guess I really should pepper my posts with apologetic disclaimers
> after all.
Actually *I* am sorry for my harsh tone...
> The games you mention- I have heard them mentioned around & would love
> to see them in action in order to learn from them how to improve my
> own writing. Where is the best place to download them?
Well I usually use ifarchive.org so:
Galatea:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/Galatea.z8
Muse:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/muse.z5
Photopia:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/photopia.z5
Being Andrew Plotkin:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/competition2000/inform/bap/bap.z5
Rameses:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/rameses.z5
Heroine's Mantle:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/Heroine.z8
Jigsaw:
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/Jigsaw.z8
Mind you, those were just off the top of my head. They are not any sort
of top list, not even for me... <g> One of them I didn't even like that
much...
Aris Katsaris
David Given
adamh...@hotmail.com (Adam Hendine) writes:
[...]
> The games you mention- I have heard them mentioned around & would love
> to see them in action in order to learn from them how to improve my
> own writing. Where is the best place to download them?
The IF-Archive, your source for all things IF.
Have fun!
--
+- David Given --------McQ-+ "[One shot of the Death Star's superlaser has
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | enough power] to send Marty McFly to the Big Bang
| Play: d...@cowlark.com | and back 1.4x10^29 times." --- William Clifford
+- http://www.cowlark.com -+
TheCycoONE
>
> Jonathan Penton gave an example of sex for plot advancement that made
> me think, and I came up with this: sex for plot advancement is made
> for plot advancement, not to arouse people. This distinction may have
> been blurred by movie makers and book writers who realised that sex
> sells and who have since been walking a fine line between sex for plot
> advancement and porn.
>
> Are you talking about all forms of sex, or only the pleasant ones,
> that make you feel better _and_ carry the plot along? If you are not,
> the type of games you would like to see would probably do little to
> advance the cause of mature AIF.
>
> Good AIF to me seems to be AIF that reaches its goal. And to me it
> would seem that that goal is not one of intellectual enjoyment.
>
sole purpose of pleasure is the light which much of the RAIF seems to have
put on us, but I think it's as naive as our opinons on the NPC's of non AIF
games. Though not very many yet there is a large and noticable trend
towards AIF which makes the player think. The puzzles are becoming harder,
the story is becoming deeper. Even if the games themselves are not intended
to people do think. When babysitter was released it seemed to promote rape
for pleasure promting many long theological and reality based arguments.
(It was decided that the game was actually quite lousy) Other programs
result in different but equally intellectually stimulating conversation,
because people think, because pleasure is not the opposite of intellect,
because we're all human.
Certainly sex is novel, but how long until we become jaded.
TheCycoONE
Al Biggone
> I could point to _Blow Job Drifter_, with its wry commentary on the
> emptiness at the core of postmodern life, about the futility of cynicism
> itself. But no one would believe me, and everyone would insist that it
> was just a game about solving puzzles to get blown.
>
> Adam
And solving puzzles to get blown is unrelated to life exactly how?
The chronicler of modernity,
Al
John Colagioia
<751e13f5.01081...@posting.google.com>...
>John Colagioia wrote
>> I, in fact, shudder to ask my question, as I can imagine the fallout.
>> Understand, first, that I mean no offense to you, the AIF community, or
>> anyone in it.
>:) I feel like Don Corleone. It's a sad reflection on the state of
>newsgroup postings that people (myself included! You should see the
>disclaimers I attached to a post I made disrespecting Star Trek as an
>artform) need to be so cautious about expressing potentially
>controversial opinions. No offense taken I assure you (I'm very hard
>to offend).
Well, I only bother "disclaiming" my comments when I can't think of a polite
way to phrase a comment or question. In this case, all variations are
easily read as, "you lie! I looked at your stuff and it's all garbage."
This, obviously, is not the way I intended it, so I figured I'd head off any
potential defensiveness. The fact that it was unnecessary is just an added
bonus to my effort.
>> However, this talk of lifelike NPCs caused me to download a
>> random sampling of games, in order to see what features could be
>> sto--err...borrowed. What I found, instead, was that the "development"
>> wasn't significantly different than the "signpost puzzle NPC" problem you
>> speak of. That is, the vast majority of NPCs are there so you, the
>> player, can figure out how to stimulate them.
>> Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not the
>> case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
>> intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
>GNA by NewKid is pretty good- the character are of course there to
>"enjoy" but at least show diversity of personality & motive. I'd also
>blushingly ask you to try out my own "Peril in the Skies" where I hope
>the characters come across as believable individuals (within the
>genre) rather than simply obstacles to overcome.
>If I am wrong, I retire shamefaced...
Well, here's the thing. I've checked both of those. And, yes, the
characters have personalities. However, in my opinion, those personalities
have little, if anything, to do with any of the game.
Let me explain that, since it's far from clear.
In "Generic New York Apartment," you have a bunch of characters who do,
indeed, have very well-fleshed-out personalities. The problem, however, is
the fact that the personalities barely affect the game, except to inform the
player as to what might...again, I'll euphemize it as "unlock the door." In
fact, the vast majority of the characterization is done in absentia. That
happens to be a great literary technique, and one used to pretty good
advantage, but is more of a writing technique than an IF issue (that is,
it's applicable to IF, but it's hardly innovative, since it's been done for
literal millenia).
In the case of "Peril Skies," I have to admit, it's a damn good game.
Congratulations on it. Nice pacing, and it captured the "feel" of the genre
about as well as Indiana Jones does. However, despite (or maybe because
of?) that, I found the characters to be...window-dressing. (Granted, this
is partly a genre convention, itself, though.) The vast majority of them
are stationary and those with whom there is an opportunity to converse have
very little information. Granted, most of the characters aren't there for
the scintillating discussion, but I still found it jarring that the chief,
for example, seems to know vaguely about his daughter, the idol, the
robot-guys, and the planes. Other than that, he exists solely to hand me a
pair of pants and smile a lot.
Basically, what I consider to be "state of the art" in terms of NPCs is
twofold. First, a character with a wide range of commentary, and a basic
knowledge of conversational flow (or any activity, really--in AIF, this
might mean an NPC who has varying "urges," based on what the player and
[apologies for being sexist, here] her have participated in). Emily Short
has written on this in far, far more depth than I could ever get to, and the
majority of what she's worked out can be found in her "Galatea" and "Pytho's
Mask."
The other major part of an NPC, in my opinion, is activity. The character
should not be a signpost or puzzle--at least not a "lock and key" or "get x,
use x" puzzle--but rather an animated figure with goals and projects of his
or her own that they will pursue regardless of what the player might be up
to at the moment. Mind you, they don't have to be active planners, but they
certainly shouldn't just sit idle until the PC pokes at them (sometimes
literally). "Planetfall" did a fairly nice job, in this respect, with
Floyd. "Zork I"'s thief, similarly, is fairly well-done. Alas, these are
about two decades old, and the state of the art has progressed only a very
short distance in this respect.
And, yes, before you say it, I agree. It's hard--very hard. That, of
course, is why I was trying to get a better look at the state of the art.
Interestingly, I did find one character, by the way, which fit my criteria.
The implementation is relatively primitive (compared to the examples I
mention above, at least), but Laura from "Ideal High School" is clearly
capable of changing state based on history, and does, indeed, have an agenda
apart from the player's goals. In contrast, [checking for the name...] Liz
(same game) works almost as well, actually, by using the idea of being
sedentary as part of the characterization.
Wetstone
Hendine's outragious suggestion that some AIF might ever hope to be on a
level with good IF. Hopefully, your comments will cause him to rethink his
planned move from AIF to IF, and retain his talents and energy for the AIF
community, whilst still being inspired by the quality and depth of some of
the IF mentioned in this thread.
Wetstone
"TheCycoONE" <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tnr9f48...@corp.supernews.com...
Dan Shiovitz
Aris Katsaris <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>Adam Hendine <adamh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:751e13f5.01081...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> GNA by NewKid is pretty good- the character are of course there to
>> "enjoy" but at least show diversity of personality & motive. I'd also
>> blushingly ask you to try out my own "Peril in the Skies" where I hope
>> the characters come across as believable individuals (within the
>> genre) rather than simply obstacles to overcome.
>
>Have you ever tried to play Galatea, Muse, Photopia, Being Andrew Plotkin,
>Ramesses, Heroine's Mantle, Jigsaw, or any other game which is well-regarded
>in these newsgroups?
>
>Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
>"Peril in
>the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You have
>*no
>idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of "Peril
>in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive fiction...
Actually, it's interesting that you pick these games as comparison
points. Rameses, for instance, has no real character development via
interaction, and Jigsaw's NPCs are certainly nothing special either
(except White, and of course there again it's generally
development-via-writing rather than development-via-interaction).
Then there's Heroine's Mantle. If Peril in the Skies wasn't so short,
they'd be really pretty similar. They're both pulp adventures (and,
for that matter, both with killer robots, airplanes, and beautiful-but-evil
female assistants), Heroine's Mantle borders on soft porn as it is,
and I imagine it wouldn't be much of a disruption to the story to
push it over the line. Or, conversely, you could strip the sex out of
Peril in the Skies and still have a rip-roaring cinematic adventure
game.
It's pretty clear that overall, AIF generally lags behind the
most cutting-edge IF in terms of technology, but the state of IF is
hardly so lofty that we can or should sneer at other people's attempts
to make better NPCs.
>Aris Katsaris
--
Dan Shiovitz :: d...@cs.wisc.edu :: http://www.drizzle.com/~dans
"He settled down to dictate a letter to the Consolidated Nailfile and
Eyebrow Tweezer Corporation of Scranton, Pa., which would make them
realize that life is stern and earnest and Nailfile and Eyebrow Tweezer
Corporations are not put in this world for pleasure alone." -PGW
Adam Hendine
> Thank you, all who reacted so heatedly and dismissively in reply to Adam
> Hendine's outragious suggestion that some AIF might ever hope to be on a
> level with good IF. Hopefully, your comments will cause him to rethink his
> planned move from AIF to IF, and retain his talents and energy for the AIF
> community, whilst still being inspired by the quality and depth of some of
> the IF mentioned in this thread.
>
> Wetstone
Actually I'm almost impossible to offend- especially when I realise
I'm actually in the wrong (doesn't happen often I must admit...).
Having now checked out some of the newer IF (well new to me anyway!) I
realise that my comments re: characterisation were ill judged to say
the least.
The last thing I want is for any acrimony to arise over my comments
and/or responses made to them.
verDoHug(group)={} ?
Aris Katsaris
Dan Shiovitz <d...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:9lkvct$37s$1...@cascadia.drizzle.com...
> In article <9lir23$1n9$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>,
> Aris Katsaris <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >Have you ever tried to play Galatea, Muse, Photopia, Being Andrew
Plotkin,
> >Ramesses, Heroine's Mantle, Jigsaw, or any other game which is
well-regarded
> >in these newsgroups?
> >
> >Sorry to say this, but if you even *start* comparing the characters of
> >"Peril in
> >the Skies" to those of the above, I'm just gonna knock ya silly. You have
> >*no
> >idea* what you are talking about when you say that the characters of
"Peril
> >in the Skies" were more believable than in most non-A interactive
fiction...
>
> Actually, it's interesting that you pick these games as comparison
> points. Rameses, for instance, has no real character development via
> interaction, and Jigsaw's NPCs are certainly nothing special either
> (except White, and of course there again it's generally
> development-via-writing rather than development-via-interaction).
Not at all sure I understand the distinction "development-via-writing"
vs "development-via-interaction". I'm referring to characterisation
in general.
> Then there's Heroine's Mantle. If Peril in the Skies wasn't so short,
> they'd be really pretty similar. They're both pulp adventures (and,
> for that matter, both with killer robots, airplanes, and
beautiful-but-evil
> female assistants), Heroine's Mantle borders on soft porn as it is,
> and I imagine it wouldn't be much of a disruption to the story to
> push it over the line. Or, conversely, you could strip the sex out of
> Peril in the Skies and still have a rip-roaring cinematic adventure
> game.
I think it may be exactly this similarity in genres that made me mention
Heroine's Mantle.
Aris Katsaris
Ross Presser
Hendine)".wrote.posted.offered:
>Surely an ideal compromise position ...
... would be a very compromising position indeed.
Sorry, the pun generator just took over.
TheCycoONE
for my webpage. Since my page is mainly oriented for the AIF community, I
like to include IF to make sure we don't become to distant (This community
is much larger and advances far faster then AIF) Whats more important in
AIF then a good NPC? I hope that if the authors see what is possible (and
I'm kind of curious myself) that they will attempt at least to emulate this
greatness.
As mentioned before they must be TADS, my site is TheCycoONE's voRTex of
TADS Games, so it would make little sense otherwise.
TheCycoONE
http://cvtg.emsai.net
Al Biggone
where the best NPCs have been implemented. It'd certainly be worth
considering.
Also, maybe all of the questions on this thread could be answered by
downloading a few games and trying them out. Or searching back posts,
because the NPC issue is always a hot-button one.
Al
balancing the A with the IF
In article <tnu7mue...@corp.supernews.com>,
Aris Katsaris
> Well were on this topic, I'm looking for the TADS game with the best
NPC's,
> for my webpage.
Worlds Apart. A game with some truly amazing NPCs which I ought to have
mentioned already.
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/tads/worlds.zip
Aris Katsaris
ally.mon
try, say, "Worlds Apart", "Common Ground", "Exhibition", --"Kaged"
maybe--also, the "Frenetic Five" games... "Arrival"?--though I haven't
checked those out--and I'm not sure if that's the kind of NPC
implemention that AIF wants to benefit from. Then again, I found some
AIF (N)PCs to be a tad on the cheesy/clichéd side so far (programming
isn't all there is to NPCs, no?) and *that* put me off (rather than
the general "idea" of "A"IF; or the absence of this or that body part)
~ally.mon
Al Biggone <al_bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<al_biggone-B0436...@corp-news.newsfeeds.com>...
TheCycoONE
neglect others, rather I keep the latest version of Frotz and AGiliTy on my
computer and download the games on occasion, but neither of these has ever
seemed quite as capable to me. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games, or maybe
it's because I've become so use to TADS that anything else seems 'awkweird'.
Anyway my site focuses on TADS (all sites need a focus), and your post does
little to enhance the original question. Sorry.
"Al Biggone" <al_bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:al_biggone-B0436...@corp-news.newsfeeds.com...
TheCycoONE
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:9lnv6l$8ok$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
I'll be sure to include it. Thank you for the suggestion!
Al Biggone
have the source code to the game, I'd say all you're doing is playing
the games, eh? So why not play more of them? You can take what you've
learned and write an NPC in any language you like. Of course, don't
expect to learn much...I think it's already fairly well-established what
a good NPC should do, which is everything. It's just no one seems likely
to implement this.
Of course, Inform is a language equally capable to TADS. They have
different strengths. I find Inform a bit more sensible and focused.
Perhaps people like TADS because it is even more like C. Neither is
anything like AGT.
All the cutest, swellest IF authors work in Inform. But, then again,
your choice in phasers has been very much choosen, a phrase that
resonates in my brain.
Al
always there, always helpful
In article <tnvc6p6...@corp.supernews.com>,
Rap
general notes here.
John Colagioia <JCola...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<3B7BBFDA...@csi.com>...
> Adam Hendine wrote:
> [...]
>
> > What AIF seems to have that IF (often) lacks is the development of
> > non-player-characters beyond simply being keys/clues to puzzles. Good
> > AIF relies upon developed characters to make the sex part worthwhile
> > (admittedly bad AIF doesn't do this so much!).
>
> I, in fact, shudder to ask my question, as I can imagine the fallout.
> Understand, first, that I mean no offense to you, the AIF community, or
> anyone in it. However, this talk of lifelike NPCs caused me to download a
> random sampling of games, in order to see what features could be
> sto--err...borrowed. What I found, instead, was that the "development"
> wasn't significantly different than the "signpost puzzle NPC" problem you
> speak of. That is, the vast majority of NPCs are there so you, the
> player, can figure out how to stimulate them.
>
> Therefore, the question: Can you point me to games where this is not the
> case, and where the NPCs are more than--I swear no pun or hidden meaning
> intended--"key and lock" puzzles?
No. But we do talk about it. Check out <plug>my "Writing AIF" (I think
it's at www.geocities.com/aetus_kane for example)</plug> where I spend
some time talking about how NPCs should be more interesting.
No, AIF isn't close to the best IF. But I don't want it to be. I often
talk on alt.games.xtrek about how I want my games to be sort of like those
American Pie -- mindless fun. Well, not mindless, but immature. I want the
NPCs to be somewhat interesting. I happen to enjoy puzzles. But mostly I'm
playing these games cuz they have sex in them. And that's why I like
having a separate newsgroup. We are concerned about interesting NPCs and
puzzles and room descriptions and good coding (at least some of us -- and
I wish more of us cared about spelling) but at least one of the main game
goals is just to be sexy.
That said, at least some games are far better than the xtrek of two years
ago. But still no Photopia.
Btw, even if the readers of this thread were being very open, there have
definitely been quite negative responses to discussions of coding sex
here. That's fine, it's what we have agx for, but the fact that noone
responded that way in this thread isn't proof that everyone here is open
to it.
A few folks on agx talk about "literary AIF", by which they really mean
excellent IF with an adult component. None of that exists (at least in the
agx world) yet. And frankly, I don't think I'd enjoy it. I like regular IF
& AIF but literary AIF (like many movies that have explicit sex but with
morals and stuff) would probably be too dark for me.
Finally, I'm not so sure the communities are so separate. A number of us
have a separate logon to post on agx & raif.
-Rap
ps Perhaps the RAIF FAQ should mention AIF & link to aif.emsai.net?
ArKane
> OK. It's far too late to join this discussion, so I'll just write
> a few general notes here.
So long as you aren't brief ;)
> No. But we do talk about it. Check out <plug>my "Writing AIF" (I
> think it's at www.geocities.com/aetus_kane for example)</plug>
> where I spend some time talking about how NPCs should be more
> interesting.
You and a few others. Just to be technical, the various documents can
be found on this page:
<http://www.geocities.com/aetus_kane/reading.html>.
[snipped]
> That said, at least some games are far better than the xtrek of
> two years ago. But still no Photopia.
Come on, give NewKid a break will ya!?
> Finally, I'm not so sure the communities are so separate. A
> number of us have a separate logon to post on agx & raif.
> -Rap
Ok, so who are you really? *L*
> ps Perhaps the RAIF FAQ should mention AIF & link to
> aif.emsai.net?
That and a pointer to the UFAQ for alt.games.xtrek might be nice if
one thinks in a reciprocating manner. Actually, I should have thought
of suggesting this before. There is a brief mention of adult games in
there somewhere, it's about a paragraph.
ArKane
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ArKane http://www.geocities.com/aetus_kane/
ICQ: 78983892
"If thou wouldst program works of AIF,
thou wilst maketh BACKUPS!"