Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Graham Nelson
----------------------------------------------------------------
The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
to receive "Advent" (a.k.a. "Colossal Cave") and "Zork" (a.k.a. "Dungeon")
in the late 1970s. Two graduate students, Jon Thackray and David Seal,
began a game called "Acheton" in 1978-9: with the aid of Jonathan
Partington it expanded for another two years. Possibly the first game
written outside America, by 1981 it seems likely that it was also the
largest in the world (it has 403 locations). "Acheton" was written
with a game assembler contemporary with Infocom's proprietory "ZIL":
unlike ZIL, Seal and Thackray's game assembler was available for public
use, the public in question being all users of Phoenix c. 1980-95.
"Acheton" and a number of other titles migrated to commercial releases:
some by Acornsoft for the BBC Micro, the local Cambridge-built
microcomputer; some later by Topologika for a wide range of systems,
so that these games are often called "the Topologika games". However,
not all the Phoenix games had a Topologika release, nor vice versa.
Under the long shadow of "Acheton", the Phoenix games tend to be
large cave exploration games with treasures in the traditional style,
with well over 100 rooms each ("Sangraal" has 170 and "Fyleet" is
not far behind). As was normal in games of the period, they have
a two-word parser, but it is a good one, supporting "take all" and
"drop all".
The three restored here make a loose trilogy of cave games by
Jonathan R. Partington, now Professor of Mathematical Analysis at
Leeds University. (Jonathan has been unfailingly generous with his
time but we would ask players to get in touch with us rather than
emailing him directly: see below.) These games can be played in any
order and do not refer to each other, but belong together in style
and atmosphere, which is why we began with them.
Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then
compiled by Inform into story files. They do not include the Inform
library, and so don't have the Inform world model or parser --
instead they have the original, two-word parser and include their
own implementations of standard actions. If our restorations work
properly, all responses and messages are identical to the originals
(with only tiny exceptions, e.g., the arrangements for saving and
restoring games are more modern and not specific to Phoenix).
The translator is still new. We have tested these three games, and
think they're at least mostly correct, but wouldn't be too surprised
to receive the odd bug report. Please send all feedback to
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk).
"Fyleet" (1985):
You are in the ruins of the ancient fortress of Fyleet.
Around you lies a thick pine forest, which appears to have been
cleared a bit to your west; there are also paths to the east
and north, while to the south some steps lead down into the ground.
> down
You proceed down the steps, which twist and turn as they
descend several hundred feet into the ground. Eventually
you come out into a small room.
You are in a small square room. Light streams in from an archway to
the south. There are steps leading up to the north, and a closed door
to the east.
There is a bullseye lantern here, which is off.
There is a piano-accordion here.
There is an empty bottle here.
"Crobe" (1986): Beneath the cliffs of the seaport of Crobe are caves
presided over by the cordial, if not directly helpful, Warden of
Crobe, and home also to Karg, king of a band of trolls. But it's
far from easy even to find your way in.
"The Quest for the Sangraal" (1987): A cheering crowd urges you to
go out to certain death on a quest for the Sangraal (the Holy
Grail), as have many knights before you. A game making much
greater use of landscape, memorable for its wry puzzles on
goodness versus sin.
These three games are available as Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5 and Sangraal.z5
at "ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive/", and -- like all Z-code story
files -- can be played using Frotz, MaxZip and many other interpreters.
We intend next to release "Nidus", "Xenophobia", "BrandX" (later
better known as "Philosopher's Quest") and "Parc", four rather
different games by four different authors.
22 August 1999
Graham Nelson (writing translator program)
Adam Atkinson (testing and restoring source code)
Gunther Schmidl (seeking and clearing rights to source code)
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
Matthew Garrett
>The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
>usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
<ObPedant>
Ex-central computer - I have an MPEG of it being shut down around here
somewhere...
</ObPedant>
But other than that, all I have to say is "Cool" - I'm even more in favour
of 80's nostalgia when it's bits of the 80s that I missed out on...
--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk
Michael Baum
(Matthew Garrett) wrote:
><ObPedant>
>Ex-central computer - I have an MPEG of it being shut down around here
>somewhere...
></ObPedant>
Truly? I have seen some stupefyingly boring MPEGs, but one of an IBM
mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
Cool!
-maab
Matthew Garrett
>mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
>exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
>Cool!
People get very sentimental about old mainframes around here. This
probably goes to show something or other, but I'm sure I don't know what.
--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk
Alan Trewartha
Matthew Garrett <URL:mailto:jcn-mart...@jesus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>, Graham Nelson wrote:
>
> >The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
> >usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
>
> of 80's nostalgia when it's bits of the 80s that I missed out on...
I missed out despite having bloody lectures in the building that housed
it, despite having CompSci friends and despite being forced to do some
physical modelling project for part Ib physics. Do I feel stupid.
This is really great. I read Stephen G's miningco article that mentioned
Acheton... I guess that's not going to be coming our way too quickly :-(,
but fantastic work on these games. I am, as they say, there.
Philosopher's Quest will be welcome too, as the emulated BBC version I've
got seems a little dodgy.
Now, back to my Vectrex disassembly...
--
Mail to alant instead of no.spam
Magnus Olsson
Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Now, this is absolutely smashing news, both from a player's and from
an antiquarian's point of view.
>Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
>a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
>directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
>language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then
>compiled by Inform into story files.
And this is most interesting from a hacker's point of view ("hacker"
in the original sense, of course).
Which immediately leads me to ask:
Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
as well? And what about a specification for the source language,
together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
interesting objects of study.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------
Graham Nelson
I was actually logged on during its last minute of public service,
as (I noticed) were quite a number of others, purely for auld
lang syne. It was like the Saturday night backup shutdown to
end all Saturday night backup shutdowns... and the system logged
us off forcibly exactly as it always did. By then, there were
relatively few services available anyway, and it all felt like
a great big mansion from which all the furniture had been cleared.
Crispin Boylan
Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?
I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?
Great job with the others though!
Cheers
Cris
Graham Nelson wrote:
> Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
> usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
> Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
> a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
> directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
> language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then
Gunther Schmidl
> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
> as well? And what about a specification for the source language,
> together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
> interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
> interesting objects of study.
You haven't been paying very close attention to r.a.i-f OR visiting ifMUD a
lot lately, have you? :-)
All the sources (except PARC), plus compiler specification, are already at
GMD.
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/topologika/
I'd wait with downloading the sources, though, since cleaned-up versions
will be uploaded soon.
+-----------------+---------------+------------------------------+
| Gunther Schmidl | ICQ: 22447430 | IF: http://sgu.home.dhs.org/ |
|-----------------+----------+----+------------------------------|
| gschmidl (at) gmx (dot) at | please remove the "xxx." to reply |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------+
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
> as well?
They already are: they've been at ftp.gmd.de for about three weeks.
They are filed under "topologika" in "games/source" as I remember:
though this is not really correct, since none of the games there
has ever had a Topologika release. I would prefer them to be
called "Cambridge University" or "Phoenix" games, I suppose.
> And what about a specification for the source language,
Likewise! (Which came as a relief to me: my old printout of the
manual, made in 1990, is now altogether illegible.)
> together with the Phoenix program?
Yes, I intend to publish this when it's a little bit cleaner.
Even so, it will be a pretty vile Perl script, and I don't propose
to spend any time porting it to different platforms, maintaining
it, etc. -- I see it strictly as a means to an end.
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
>
> an antiquarian's point of view.
One more thing, if I may -- they really are of more than
antiquarian interest: they're rather good games, far superior
to the run of early 1980s microcomputer games. I enjoyed them
enormously while testing.
Magnus Olsson
Gunther Schmidl <gsch...@xxx.gmx.at> wrote:
>>
>> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
>> together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
>> interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
>> interesting objects of study.
>
>You haven't been paying very close attention to r.a.i-f OR visiting ifMUD a
>lot lately, have you? :-)
Well, I recall seeing an announcement of the topologika games being
uploaded, but I didn't connect this with Graham's post. Sorry.
And as for the ifMUD - I've only visited the place once, during the
1997 XYZZY awards ceremony. I pay for internet access by the minute,
and connecting to a MUD from work would be too flagrant a breach of
the traditional Swedish Lutheran work ethics. :-)
Which is a pity, because I gather that most of the goings-on on
today's IF scene go on at the MUD, rather than in the newsgroups.
Andrew Plotkin
> And as for the ifMUD - I've only visited the place once, during the
> 1997 XYZZY awards ceremony. I pay for internet access by the minute,
> and connecting to a MUD from work would be too flagrant a breach of
> the traditional Swedish Lutheran work ethics. :-)
>
> Which is a pity, because I gather that most of the goings-on on
> today's IF scene go on at the MUD, rather than in the newsgroups.
Eh, not really. The MUD is a gossip center and font of random
conversation, among a group of people who are a *subset* of the RAIF
regulars. Most of the time we're not talking about IF at all.
(I'd recommend the Implementor's Lunches as an exception, but I've missed
every single one since the first. Sigh.)
If anything, I'd say that most of the goings-on in modern IF have moved to
our individual apartments, studies, and offices. The trend I see is that
people are implementing their ideas, instead of bringing them up on the
newsgroup for discussion.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Adam Atkinson
>Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?
The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.
>I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?
We would need Topologika's blessing to produce zcode versions of
Hamil, Murdac, Quondam, Acheton or Avon. Or indeed the Doom games.
I'm not sure if we need a blessing to release BrandX ... it could be
argued that it's not Philosopher's Quest in the same way that Dungeon
isn't Zork I/II/III.
Such a blessing is being sought - all the authors have said if it's ok
by Topologika, it's ok by them. Graham and I have the matter in hand -
please don't anybody else contact Topologika about this.
The Doom games and other non-Phoenix titles aren't likely to be
z-coded terribly soon, as they were written in a different language.
Indeed, the Phoenix games with Topologika releases were ported into
this other language. I'm told the Topologika releases were usually a
little different from the Phoenix originals - I've not seen the
Topologika versions. I did playtest "Last Days of Doom", though.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
BRITISH PUSH BOTTLES UP ENEMY
Matthew Garrett
>The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
>those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
>and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
>binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
>then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
>of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.
Has anyone tried shouting for help on the ucam.* groups? There's rather a
lot of people left who were around during the Phoenix days.
--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk
Adam Atkinson
>Has anyone tried shouting for help on the ucam.* groups? There's rather a
>lot of people left who were around during the Phoenix days.
Well... we've mostly been talking to the people who wrote the games.
CJ10 has a tape backup of Phoenix, but Hezarin and Quondam sources
probably aren't on it. RU10 (or was he RU10something?) doesn't have
electronic copies of the sources to Quondam but thinks he might have a
printout somewhere.
JRP1 had electronic copies of almost everything, but Hezarin's sources
had already vanished by the mid 80s, IIRC. I think JGT1 told me at the
time that if bugs were found in it, nothing could be done.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
XYZZY
Adam Atkinson
A general note: we already know about two cosmetic oopses in Sangraal.
(i) Klingsor seems to score one of his challenges incorrectly but actually
only the message is wrong - the game keeps track of the correct score.
(ii) You get a message full of "?" signs in the Temple of Numbers.
This doesn't actually matter.
Both of these will be fixed.
Graham: message "bingomess" needs x34, x35, x36 and x37 instead of ?,
?, ?, ?
And my best guess for the klingsor first challenge is:
gamescore:
x35, x36
gameno:
x34
If that's what I said the first time, then I'm very confused about
what to try next.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Eschew obfuscation!
Andrew Plukss
but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
Andrew Plukss
Adam Atkinson
>I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
>but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode".
Ooer.
>Is there
>something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
>from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
I didn't think so. Graham has a RiscOS machine and I have an Amiga, so
we hadn't tried them with WinFrotz. Still, they worked on both of
ours just like any other game. Hmmm... and JRP1 has played them
successfully on his Macintosh using MaxZip.
Anyone else have the same problem?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Steve Evans
wrote:
I'm using Winfrotz 2.32 R5.3 and they all seem to work fine.
I suspect that a download problem may have been the culprit.
Steve Evans
Andrew Plukss
encountered the illegal opcode errors. However, as Steve Evans has had
no problems I'll accept the download gremlin as being responsible for
the problem and have another attempt. Thankyou all for your quick
responses.
Andrew Plukss
Mark J Musante
> I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
> something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
> from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
Make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you've downloaded the files in binary mode,
if you're using direct ftp.
.z* files get completely munged if ASCII ftp is used.
-=- Mark -=-
J.D. Berry
"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> So, has anyone played any of these games yet? I've not had any mail.
>
While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
Going from Anchorhead to Crobe in one day, I may have suffered some
sort of gaming system shock. If anyone has a good "apples to oranges"
cliche, let me know. ;-)
Jim
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Adam Atkinson
> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
ancient key under the bed".
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
You got a light, mac?
No, but I've got a dark brown overcoat.
Adam Atkinson
>The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>ancient key under the bed".
Thinking about it, even when I play games which do allow me to say the
most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
"turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
infocom games.
Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
advanced parsers?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
VOLCANO MISSING FEARED DEAD
Dylan O'Donnell
> On 27-Aug-99 21:32:03, Adam Atkinson said:
>
> >The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> >shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> >ancient key under the bed".
>
> Thinking about it, even when I play games which do allow me to say the
> most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
> like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
> "turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
> infocom games.
>
> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> advanced parsers?
Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell : "It is pitch black. You are likely :
: Forgotten Office, Demon : to be eaten by a grue." :
: http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : -- Dave Lebling and Marc Blank, "Zork" :
Andrew Plotkin
> On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
>
>> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
>
> shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> ancient key under the bed".
But it's uncomfortable to be faced with a Crobe-master who says "You can
give things to me", and know that "give object to crobe" isn't the right
answer. I have to think about what to type, which isn't ideal. It's not
just a matter of ignoring all the four-word commands.
And I do get frustrated when no version of "examine" works. Even if it
would produce a "nothing interesting" message every time, it's still part
of my navigation instincts, and I feel a bit blinded when it's not there.
(Not to mention "l" and "i".)
I realize that this is an exercise in historical restoration, not a new
game project. Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
these games.
R. Alan Monroe
>I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
>but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
>something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
>from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
You probably used netscape, and it downloaded with a mime type that
netscape mistakenly thought was ascii. In other words, redownload with
a different program, or maybe from a mirror site.
Have fun
Alan
Jason Compton
: Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
: advanced parsers?
Sure. Take, for example, the ability to "look under" rather than simply
"look at" which we generally take to be the standard "look." Or "look
in."
Better parsers also solve the
>THROW ROCK
At what?
>WALL
problem. I think it's a lot more reasonable to just say what I want to
do--throw the rock at the wall.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Adam Atkinson
>> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>> advanced parsers?
>Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
>but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
>ON PEDESTAL;
Yes, after sending my message I realised that I would probably say
things like that from time to time too. Rare-ish, though.
>I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
>expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
>what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
>in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
I'll check the docs. We _may_ have a reason to recompile here...
I thought the specs for the Phoenix system said that all words after
the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
"put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
What's yellow and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice? Zorn's lemon.
Adam Atkinson
>: Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>: advanced parsers?
>Sure. Take, for example, the ability to "look under" rather than simply
>"look at" which we generally take to be the standard "look." Or "look
>in."
Wasn't "search" the way out of this way back when? I know the Phoenix
mob generally didn't like "search" and "examine" - their attitude was
that having to "search" or "examine" every object in sight every time
you went into a new room was tedious.
>Better parsers also solve the
>>THROW ROCK
>At what?
>>WALL
>problem. I think it's a lot more reasonable to just say what I want to
>do--throw the rock at the wall.
Well, sure. But in these games, you can't do this. Perhaps we should
change the "inform" message to warn people about such things. Since
the game has a two-word parser, puzzles will almost never rely on this
kind of thing.
Dylan O'Donnell
> On 28-Aug-99 00:03:22, Dylan O'Donnell said:
>
> >> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> >> advanced parsers?
>
> >but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> >expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> >what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> >in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
>
> I'll check the docs. We _may_ have a reason to recompile here...
> I thought the specs for the Phoenix system said that all words after
> the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
> "put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...
Well, they may in certain cases. But certainly SIT ON THRONE in
Crobe, for example, gets "I don't understand that!" when SIT is
understood. It really just demands a habit of thinking which I've
fallen out of in the past, pampered years :-)
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> advanced parsers?
In the majority of the commands, no way. For crying out loud,
the majority of the commands I give are a single letter.
But in the majority of the games I play, I do make use of the
more advanced features of the parser at one time or another,
and if the game doesn't understand I get frustrated. Fast.
It's usually because the solution I've thought up for
the puzzle I was stuck can't be communicated with simpler
syntax, and the fact that one line after another the game
doesn't understand my commands indicates that the author
didn't anticipate the action I'm trying to do. Some actions
can't be stated in two words. But by the time I realise that
my problem isn't guess-the-syntax but having the wrong solution,
I'm already quite frustrated. I usually don't finish those
games.
'Right! Now the first person to discover twelfth base
gets a ghost point and one free "Get Out of Jail"...'
-- Calvin
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
> but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
> expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon. You
hit something with it. (Swing might have worked, but I didn't
think of that.) I eventually got frustrated and typed "throw
axe" meaning throw it across the room in dispair -- and wow,
that was what I was supposed to do all along. But that's the
wrong way to have to get there.
Daniel Giaimo
news:37c7aecc...@news.bright.net...
> dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>
> > Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
> > but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> > ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
> > expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> > what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> > in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
>
> Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
> to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
> not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.
I guess the dwarvish axe is more like a tomahawk than a battleaxe.
Also, I would think that you would get the idea since the dwarf throws the
axe at you.
--
--Daniel Giaimo
Remove nospam. from my address to e-mail me. |
dgiaimo@(nospam.)ix.netcom.com
^^^^^^^^^<-(Remove)
|--------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK--------| Ros: I don't believe in it anyway.
|Version: 3.1 |
|GM d-() s+:+++ a--- C++ UIA P+>++++ | Guil: What?
|L E--- W+ N++ o? K w>--- !O M-- V-- |
|PS? PE? Y PGP- t+(*) 5 X+ R- tv+(-) | Ros: England.
|b+@ DI++++ D--- G e(*)>++++ h->++ !r |
|!y->+++ | Guil: Just a conspiracy of
|---------END GEEK CODE BLOCK---------| cartographers, you mean?
Magnus Olsson
Matthew Garrett <mj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Truly? I have seen some stupefyingly boring MPEGs, but one of an IBM
>>mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
>>exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
>>Cool!
>
>People get very sentimental about old mainframes around here. This
>probably goes to show something or other, but I'm sure I don't know what.
I think the text you get when you type "inform" in one of the games
goes a long way towards explaining just why people would be nostalgic
about their old mainframe.
Steve Young
Adam Atkinson wrote in message
<714.908T1006T...@mistral.co.uk>...
>On 27-Aug-99 21:32:03, Adam Atkinson said:
>
>>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>>ancient key under the bed".
>
>most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
>like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
>"turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
>infocom games.
>
>advanced parsers?
I don't believe people ever have, though I could be wrong. I know I
always use as simple as commands as I can get away with.
This thing with advanced parsers that could do all elaborate things
started taking place in the mid 80's, with the authors and companies
believing that was what the public wanted, whereas in truth most of the
adventurers hated them and only wanted something that could understand
what they were trying to say or do. Instead of correcting the problems
of guess the verb, they ignored that and made the parser as elaborate as
possible.
> Give map to Thorin and ask Gandalf to open dungeon window and pick you
up, then kill Elrond with sword.
The Hobbit has a lot to answer for.
Steve
Adam Atkinson
>> the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
>> "put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...
>Well, they may in certain cases. But certainly SIT ON THRONE in
>Crobe, for example, gets "I don't understand that!" when SIT is
>understood.
Sure. "sit on" makes no sense. "sit down" works, though.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Quicksand or no, Carstairs, I've half a mind to struggle.
Adam Atkinson
>Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
>to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
>not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.
There are such things as small throwing axes. The dwarf throws the
thing at you the first time you see it.
>I eventually got frustrated and typed "throw
>axe" meaning throw it across the room in dispair -- and wow,
>that was what I was supposed to do all along. But that's the
>wrong way to have to get there.
I don't agree. It is clearly a throwing axe.
Trevor Barrie
wrote:
>>Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>>advanced parsers?
No, but I expect they often use more than two words. I certainly do.
>I don't believe people ever have, though I could be wrong. I know I
>always use as simple as commands as I can get away with.
>
>This thing with advanced parsers that could do all elaborate things
>started taking place in the mid 80's, with the authors and companies
>believing that was what the public wanted, whereas in truth most of the
>adventurers hated them
Basis for this claim? I have difficulty picturing anybody throwing a
copy of Zork across the room upon learning that it lets you use
articles.
>and only wanted something that could understand what they were trying to
>say or do. Instead of correcting the problems of guess the verb, they
>ignored that and made the parser as elaborate as possible.
Of course, you really _can't_ eliminate the problem of guess-the-verb
while using a two-word parser, as the most intuitive wording is often
going to be more than two words.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
> >but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
> >something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
> >from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
>
> You probably used netscape, and it downloaded with a mime type that
> netscape mistakenly thought was ascii. In other words, redownload with
> a different program, or maybe from a mirror site.
My experience has been that Navigator can download z-code correctly
but will only do so if you right-click on the link and choose "save
link as". If you just hit the link and watch it display jibberish
and then "save as" my experience has been that it mangles the file
somewhere along the line.
But a real ftp app is so much nicer for that sort of thing anyway.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
> > to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
> > not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.
>
> I guess the dwarvish axe is more like a tomahawk than a battleaxe.
I suppose, but when I think "dwarvish" I think Tolkeinien-dwarvish,
and I think massive double-edged battleaxe at least half the size of
the guy wielding it, probably made millenia ago two miles beneath the
surface of the ground, forged out of some incredibly dense alloy
or another, the kind of thing that cuts right through standard-issue
iron chain mail, rendering it asunder, like a chainsaw through balsa
wood. If you throw it, your enemy can potentially pick it up and
use it against you (unless of course you're a good enough shot to
render him assunder with one fell blow). But if you hit him with
it, he's not going to give you any more trouble.
> Also, I would think that you would get the idea since the dwarf throws the
> axe at you.
And I think of a very sturdy dwarf who is capable of throwing
something as tall as he is and half his girth and twice his weight,
something a puny weakling man like me would never be able to throw to
any effect.
Andrew Plukss
being able to play these games because of illegal op code errors, I
guess I should end it as well. For the record, two attempts at
downloading the games via Netscape produced files that would not run. I
have in the past successfully downloaded other Inform games by using the
shift key in combination with the mouse button which apparently forces
the save into a binary mode. I have no idea why it didn't work these
times. Common sense then intervened and I switched to an FTP program and
had no problems in downloading the games.
I have only played Fyleet and thought that I was making some progress as
I had amassed 10 points out of a possible 600, that is until I used
"score" right at the very beginning to find that I had 10 points
already! I have explored some 35 rooms and must admit that I need a
little help to get me to the next plateau of achievement (11+ points).
I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.
Andrew Plukss
Adam Atkinson
>I have only played Fyleet and thought that I was making some progress as
>I had amassed 10 points out of a possible 600, that is until I used
>"score" right at the very beginning to find that I had 10 points
>already! I have explored some 35 rooms and must admit that I need a
>little help to get me to the next plateau of achievement (11+ points).
Hmm. I didn't think it was that hard to score points in Fyleet! I'll
check my copy. (I got told I'd scored 600/600 at the end, but that's a
static message, not something with a variable in it.)
>I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
>produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
>produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
>crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.
Excellent! This is the sort of thing we need to know. ("Sit" in
Sangraal used to crash the game...) I'll tell Graham.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Please, call me Robert. It sounds so much more substantial.
(AVPP)
Adam Atkinson
>Hmm. I didn't think it was that hard to score points in Fyleet! I'll
>check my copy.
Right. Started Fyleet, did a few things that I thought would probably
be worth points, and found that my score had increased from 10 to 35.
So scoring is ok here, I think.
What have you done that you think should have earned points? Just
walking around won't have done it, though 35 rooms sounds like enough
that you must have done something points-worthy to get to some of
them. spoiler space or private mail, as you prefer.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Volemo er verde!
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:plu...@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
> produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
> produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
> crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.
That would be my fault, yes. We did say the translator was new!
It won't in any way impact on play.
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
har...@math.princeton.edu
I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
endgame. What am I missing? Is this a bug?
Harald
har...@math.princeton.edu
P.S. I'm enjoying Sangraal immensely.
Adam Atkinson
>I've solved all puzzles I've noticed, I've got 610 points,
>I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
>endgame. What am I missing? Is this a bug?
It's probably not a bug... I've finished all three of Fyleet, Sangraal
and Crobe during testing so they can all be done.
Hmm... what could it be... something a little obscure, probably.
spoiler space.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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.
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.
.
Have you rescued Eurydice?
Found the golden calf?
Have the two witches departed?
Did you get all three rewards from nastil-xarn?
Did you get both the ruby and the emerald?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
British Go Association: http://www.britgo.demon.co.uk/
Adam Atkinson
>I've solved all puzzles I've noticed, I've got 610 points,
>I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
>endgame. What am I missing?
It doesn't seem likely, but I suppose you COULD have missed one of the
treasures in the rotating maze.
I'll see what score I have just before entering the endgame.
>P.S. I'm enjoying Sangraal immensely.
Super. :-)
Adam Atkinson
>I'll see what score I have just before entering the endgame.
620
So I guess there's just one thing you haven't done.
Have you freed Lot's wife?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Ordinary decent people in this country are sick and tired of being told
that ordinary decent people in this country are fed up with being sick
and tired. I am certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that
I am. (M. Python)
Lucian Paul Smith
: I've sharpened Wren,
<snip>
Hey, did you have to >SCRAPE PARROT to do so?
-Lucian
[Sorry about not helping, but I haven't played the game yet.]
har...@math.princeton.edu
I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
importuned him, and the strongest possible injunction to all others
to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.
Harald
har...@math.princeton.edu
Adam Atkinson
>Ooops. I had forgotten to bring E. to the M.P.
Aha! Yes, that seemed one of the more likely ones. That's about the
only puzzle that stops Sangraal being non-ruinable.
>I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
>importuned him
s'ok. Looking at the source, I think you ought to be able to get into
the endgame with 610 points, actually. I'll ask Graham if there's a
possible problem here.
>, and the strongest possible injunction to all others
>to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.
It is quite fun, isn't it? :-)
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
I am never forget the day I first meet great Lobachevsky. In one
word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarise.
J R Partington
>
>I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
>to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.
>
Congratulations. Sorry we can't add you the blackboard in Nastil-Xarn,
but you know how it is...
Jonathan Partington
---
In "Kingdom of the Leather Pharaoh of Bradford," you escape the old
lady by climbing a tree but don't forget to throw the amulet.
David Thornley
Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
>
>> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
>
>The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>ancient key under the bed".
>
I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
"l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.
(Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
these, but I rather doubt it.)
Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Adam Atkinson
>I have no problems with two-word parsers, provided I know that's what
>I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
>"l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.
"examine" won't do you any good in any of these games anyway. it works
in Sangraal, but produces the same message every time.
>(Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
>It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
>these, but I rather doubt it.)
>Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?
I don't know what Graham will say ("no" seems likely). One problem
with this sort of thing is that it might introduce problems of some
odd kind - e.g. "l" already has a meaning in Sangraal, though I don't
think "x" does.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
If I were a fuzzy wuzzy bear
3 would be a perfect square
Peter Killworth
re-releases which are being discussed, can I just make a loud
noise.
I HATE EXAMINE!
There, I feel better...
Far too many games involve "puzzles" whose solution is
"Oh, you didn't notice you could 'x minefield' or
'search countryside' because these were built into room
descriptions". I was brought up to believe that the computer
was your eyes and hands. Thus if the dial is set to 8, you
get told this, without having to say 'x dial' every time.
(Clearly 'read book' and the like are legitimate; just looking
at the book isn't going to tell you all about its contents.)
Even dear Anchorhead required, after the player has set dials
properly on the safe and it opens, that the player has to 'look
in safe'. I mean, he/she is standing there by the safe,
watching it open... surely (s)he notices the contents?? What is
wrong with "the safe slowly opens, revealing an x, a y and a z"?
I might also point out that the old games (which basically
didn't like statements such as 'insert a in b', etc.) had puzzles
which didn't depend on getting the right form of words. Thus the
subtlety was *solving* the puzzle, not figuring out the vocab.
(OK, there were some exceptions, at least one of which I
was responsible for, and I apologise...)
Peter Killworth
-----
David Thornley wrote:
>
> In article <634.908T164T...@mistral.co.uk>,
> Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
> >
> >> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
> >>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
> >>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
> >>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
> >
> >The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> >shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> >ancient key under the bed".
> >
> I have no problems with two-word parsers, provided I know that's what
> I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
> "l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.
> (Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
> It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
> these, but I rather doubt it.)
>
> Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?
>
> --
> David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
> da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
> http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
--
Dr. Peter D. Killworth, James Rennell Division for Ocean Circulation
and Climate, Southampton Oceanography Centre, Empress Dock, Southampton
SO14 3ZH, England.
Tel: +44 (0)23-80596202
Fax: +44 (0)23-80596204
Email: P.Kil...@soc.soton.ac.uk
Web: http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/JRD/PROC/people/pki/pki.html
Ocean Modelling Newsletter: http://www.elsevier.nl/locate/omodol/
J R Partington
>As one of the authors potentially involved in some of the
>re-releases which are being discussed, can I just make a loud
>noise.
>I HATE EXAMINE!
>There, I feel better...
I can only agree:
N
You are in a room.
EXAMINE ROOM
This is the slab room. [2 screenfuls of purple but irrelevant prose
omitted here]. There is a mat on the floor.
EXAMINE MAT
On careful examination you observe that there is a creature on the mat.
EXAMINE CREATURE
The creature is a dragon.
EXAMINE DRAGON
This is a black, sentient, 32-foot dragon, breathing out a deadly
vapour that smells of a mixture of sulphur dioxide, beefburgers,
sour milk, aniseed and potted shrimps. "Who do you think you're
staring at?" it asks, but does not wait for a reply...
JRP
---
In "Revenge of the Golden Vampires of Luton," you escape the three
witches by using the sword Roseblade but don't forget to read the
runes on the mushroom.
Iain Merrick
> Peter Killworth writes:
>
> > As one of the authors potentially involved in some of the
> > re-releases which are being discussed, can I just make a loud
> > noise.
> > I HATE EXAMINE!
> > There, I feel better...
>
> I can only agree:
>
> N
> You are in a room.
>
> EXAMINE ROOM
> This is the slab room. [2 screenfuls of purple but irrelevant prose
> omitted here]. There is a mat on the floor.
>
> EXAMINE MAT
> On careful examination you observe that there is a creature on the mat.
>
> EXAMINE CREATURE
> The creature is a dragon.
>
> EXAMINE DRAGON
> This is a black, sentient, 32-foot dragon, breathing out a deadly
> vapour that smells of a mixture of sulphur dioxide, beefburgers,
> sour milk, aniseed and potted shrimps. "Who do you think you're
> staring at?" it asks, but does not wait for a reply...
I can only disagree. Very strongly.
That's a horribly contrived example. Obviously that would make for a bad
game, but _nobody_ writes games like that. And without this silly
exaggeration, I don't think your argument holds.
Okay, I do agree with you to a point. Inform games tend not to tell you
about objects inside containers unless you explicitly look inside them.
This can be really annoying; but you can change this behaviour, you
know: just change a few lines in the standard library. If I was
beta-testing such a game, I'd report particularly annoying containers as
bugs.
But if you get rid of _all_ object descriptions, what does that leave
you with? Something like Fyleet, Crobe or Sangraal?
I'm afraid I found all three of these games unplayable. First I tried
Sangraal, having been told that that was probably the easiest of the
three; and at first, I found it rather enjoyable, in a minimalist kind
of way. But it's full of bizarre puzzles which can kill you or close off
sections of the game without warning, and pointless mazes, and -- well,
and there are no descriptions!
This doesn't help. With a two-word decription, you can often get the
wrong idea about what an object actually _is_. A proper response to
EXAMINE can stop you going on a wild-goose chase. It can also provide
subtle hints. It can even be fun to read. What's wrong with that?
I played both Sangraal and Anchorhead over the weekend, and there's
absolutely no contest between them. Anchorhead has pages and pages of
lovely prose and well-described, highly interactive objects. Sangraal,
um, doesn't. Anchorhead certainly has some annoying features, but I
can't see how anyone could deny that it's by far the better game.
Fyleet, Crobe and Sangraal remind me of some of the early Acornsoft
games, which were my first experience of 'IF' -- like Castle of Riddles
and Sphinx Adventure. I didn't really get into IF much at that point
simply because those games were so amateurish and badly-implemented. I
had no idea that at around the same time, Infocom were producing much
better games with much better parsers; I just wish I'd had the chance to
play them back then. Many years later I played Curses, and it blew me
away.
I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
isn't. And -- in my opinion, at least -- the Phoenix games aren't very
good either.
YMMV, of course.
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
Iain Merrick
> On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
>
> > While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
> >just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
> >fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
> >work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
>
> The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> ancient key under the bed".
UNDO would be nice, though.
I'd even say essential, given the different standards of cruelty in
those days.
J R Partington
>Fyleet, Crobe and Sangraal remind me of some of the early Acornsoft
>games, which were my first experience of 'IF' -- like Castle of Riddles
>and Sphinx Adventure. I didn't really get into IF much at that point
>simply because those games were so amateurish and badly-implemented. I
>had no idea that at around the same time, Infocom were producing much
>better games with much better parsers; I just wish I'd had the chance to
>play them back then. Many years later I played Curses, and it blew me
>away.
>
>I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
>Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
>by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
>isn't. And -- in my opinion, at least -- the Phoenix games aren't very
>good either.
>
Ouch! Well, that's put us in our place, hasn't it.
I think we just have to accept that some people like the simple syntax
and the emphasis on puzzles, whereas others don't. I think if they
were being written now, rather than 12-15 years ago, we'd have gone
for a better parser---like the Topologika one, say---and provided
'undo' (for people who are not in the habit of saving games
regularly). Not much else.
JRP
---
In "Countdown to the Egyptian Goddesses of Fyleet," you escape the
cleaning lady by looking into the palantir but don't forget to burn
the amulet.
Adam Atkinson
>UNDO would be nice, though.
Hmm
>I'd even say essential, given the different standards of cruelty in
>those days.
But there are areas where it would need to be disallowed. e.g. those
where saving isn't possible, or where saving is possible but the saves
are deliberately ruined. Not being able to undo would be rather too
visible, though.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
#include <disclaimer.h>
Adam Atkinson
>I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
>Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
>by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
>isn't.
I've never seen Sphinx, but lots of people seem to agree with you.
>And -- in my opinion, at least -- the Phoenix games aren't very
>good either.
The Phoenix games are part of a whole separate tradition. Yes, they
tend to be cruel, terse, and somewhat chocka with puzzles. But as long
as you know that's what you're getting, I don't see the problem with
this.
I know that Loom and Monkey Island are non-ruinable, so I approach
them in a certain way. I know that Fyleet (to take an extreme example)
is full of instadeaths, sequencing problems, and so on, and so I
approach it a different way.
I don't think Sangraal and Crobe are so out of line with the way
things are done today - the attempts to include mazes with some kind
of twist to them is perhaps not likely to go down well these days, but
this is a Phoenix-ism.
JRP may wish to correct me on this one, but I think Sangraal was
supposed to be aimed at beginners at the time. As an introduction to
the Phoenix game tradition, I think it works pretty well.
Fyleet is, admittedly, pretty cruel by modern standards. It's pretty
cruel even by Phoenix standards.
But if you haven't played Quondam or Xeno, you shouldn't imagine you
know what cruelty is. Actually, you might find Xeno worth a try - I
think the style is quite unlike the other Phoenix games. It's not any
kind of a treasure hunt.
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:pmt...@gps.leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> >I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
> >Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
> >by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
> >isn't.
Does anybody here know who wrote "Sphinx", by the way?
(I rather liked it, myself.)
> I think we just have to accept that some people like the simple syntax
> and the emphasis on puzzles, whereas others don't. I think if they
> were being written now, rather than 12-15 years ago, we'd have gone
> for a better parser---like the Topologika one, say---and provided
> 'undo' (for people who are not in the habit of saving games
> regularly). Not much else.
Curiously, at one point my draft of "Fyleet" et al. did include
"undo", but Adam (Atkinson) and I decided to be faithful to the
original and kick it out again. Maybe we were wrong about this;
there are a fair number of "insta-deaths", as Adam puts it, in
the old Phoenix games.
As for the parser, I can't honestly see how improving the parser
would much change, say, "Crobe". Yes, there are a very few cases
where, oh, "sit on throne" would be nice. But given that the
player knows that commands are minimal, "sit" isn't going to take
too long to think of, is it?
Gene Wirchenko
>As one of the authors potentially involved in some of the
>re-releases which are being discussed, can I just make a loud
>noise.
>I HATE EXAMINE!
>There, I feel better...
>Far too many games involve "puzzles" whose solution is
>"Oh, you didn't notice you could 'x minefield' or
>'search countryside' because these were built into room
>descriptions". I was brought up to believe that the computer
>was your eyes and hands. Thus if the dial is set to 8, you
>get told this, without having to say 'x dial' every time.
>
>(Clearly 'read book' and the like are legitimate; just looking
>at the book isn't going to tell you all about its contents.)
>Even dear Anchorhead required, after the player has set dials
>properly on the safe and it opens, that the player has to 'look
>in safe'. I mean, he/she is standing there by the safe,
>watching it open... surely (s)he notices the contents?? What is
>wrong with "the safe slowly opens, revealing an x, a y and a z"?
I've run into the same problem with poor Gamemasters in AD&D,
etc.. They VERY vaguely mention the room. When you ask for
clarification, the monsters (previously unmentioned) attack.
As if you wouldn't have noticed them! It may take much longer to
describe a room than it does to look at it and gain the same
information.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Gene Wirchenko
>On 06-Sep-99 15:56:29, Iain Merrick said:
>
>>UNDO would be nice, though.
>
>Hmm
>
>>I'd even say essential, given the different standards of cruelty in
>>those days.
>
>But there are areas where it would need to be disallowed. e.g. those
>where saving isn't possible, or where saving is possible but the saves
>are deliberately ruined. Not being able to undo would be rather too
>visible, though.
The first version of one game mentioned in the 3DO group would
erase the entire memory card. Yes, that means your saved games for
other games, too. It was noted that a patch was issued.
Adam Atkinson
>>But there are areas where it would need to be disallowed. e.g. those
>>where saving isn't possible, or where saving is possible but the saves
>>are deliberately ruined. Not being able to undo would be rather too
>>visible, though.
> The first version of one game mentioned in the 3DO group would
>erase the entire memory card. Yes, that means your saved games for
>other games, too. It was noted that a patch was issued.
Um. What I mean is that there are a few areas in some Phoenix games
where you aren't allowed to save. This is so that you can't do some of
the puzzles by brute force. "undo" should probably not be allowed in
these areas either.
I _believe_ that in Avon there are certain circumstances where saving
makes the game unwinnable, but you are told that you have a bad
feeling or something. (Again, it's to stop you from using brute force
on something)
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Anvedi oh che roba!
Iain Merrick
> Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> writes:
[...]
> > the Phoenix games aren't very good
>
> Ouch! Well, that's put us in our place, hasn't it.
Er, that came out rather nastier than I intended. Sorry.
I should stress again that that was all just IMHO. And I wouldn't want
to take these kinds of games away from people who enjoy them.
> I think we just have to accept that some people like the simple syntax
> and the emphasis on puzzles, whereas others don't. I think if they
> were being written now, rather than 12-15 years ago, we'd have gone
> for a better parser---like the Topologika one, say---and provided
> 'undo' (for people who are not in the habit of saving games
> regularly). Not much else.
Okay, but you would at least want to add those. I was just rather
surprised to read in the documentation to the Z-code ports that as few
additions as possible had been made. The porters seemed to be trumpeting
genuine flaws -- or what I see as flaws -- as essential elements of
classic games. And some of the posts in this thread seemed to back up
that up.
Oops. Must stop here to play Go. :)
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
Iain Merrick
> Iain Merrick wrote:
>
> >I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
> >Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
> >by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
> >isn't.
>
> I've never seen Sphinx, but lots of people seem to agree with you.
Sphinx adventure was yet another clone of the original Adventure. The
beginning was very similar, but it diverged after that. It didn't have a
very realistic map or well-described rooms, and the puzzles were fairly
random.
> >And -- in my opinion, at least -- the Phoenix games aren't very
> >good either.
>
> The Phoenix games are part of a whole separate tradition. Yes, they
> tend to be cruel, terse, and somewhat chocka with puzzles. But as long
> as you know that's what you're getting, I don't see the problem with
> this.
>
> I know that Loom and Monkey Island are non-ruinable, so I approach
> them in a certain way. I know that Fyleet (to take an extreme example)
> is full of instadeaths, sequencing problems, and so on, and so I
> approach it a different way.
Fyleet certainly has lots of instant death rooms. What _is_ the
attraction in this? I just don't see how it adds to the game at all.
With UNDO, it's irritating. Without UNDO, it's so annoying that it
spoils my enjoyment of the game entirely.
Perhaps I am just unused to this style of game. I tend to wander around
randomly until I get my bearings, rather than draw a map, but it's
rather difficult to get your bearings when you fall into a spiked pit or
get killed by orcs every tenth move.
[...]
> Fyleet is, admittedly, pretty cruel by modern standards. It's pretty
> cruel even by Phoenix standards.
>
> But if you haven't played Quondam or Xeno, you shouldn't imagine you
> know what cruelty is.
Heh. Now there's a challenge.
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
Iain Merrick
> On 06-Sep-99 15:56:29, Iain Merrick said:
>
> >UNDO would be nice, though.
>
> Hmm
>
> >I'd even say essential, given the different standards of cruelty in
> >those days.
>
> But there are areas where it would need to be disallowed. e.g. those
> where saving isn't possible, or where saving is possible but the saves
> are deliberately ruined.
!
> Not being able to undo would be rather too visible, though.
Ye gods.
You mean there are games which intentionally don't save properly at
critical points, and _don't tell you_?!?
If so, there's a huge cultural divide here. I can't imagine enjoying a
game like that. It sounds more like a cruel no-holds-barred struggle
between player and author, which isn't the sort of thing I look for in
IF.
Just look at all the complaints there were about that comp game which
changed the computer's clock. And that's trivial compared to silently
corrupted save files.
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
Andrew Plotkin
> As for the parser, I can't honestly see how improving the parser
> would much change, say, "Crobe". Yes, there are a very few cases
> where, oh, "sit on throne" would be nice. But given that the
> player knows that commands are minimal, "sit" isn't going to take
> too long to think of, is it?
Which brings us righht around to my original post, which said that -- as
far as I'm concerned -- it would be a big improvement. Really.
Again, this is not a request to change the games. I'm just saying that,
um, you're wrong:
Crobe is uncomfortable for me to play. Adding a modern parser and
"examine" verb would make me much less uncomfortable, *even if all the
added commands were redundant and all the examine messages were defaults.*
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Miron Schmidt
> J R Partington wrote:
> > EXAMINE MAT
> > On careful examination you observe that there is a creature on the mat.
> >
> > EXAMINE CREATURE
> > The creature is a dragon.
>
> game, but _nobody_ writes games like that. And without this silly
> exaggeration, I don't think your argument holds.
Heh. TUBMUD. Dragonland quest.
(I don't have any text handy, but the scene I have in mind involves a path
with a *bell tower* on it that you only notice if you EXAMINE PATH. You need
to ring the bell to get transport to the island where the main part of the
quest takes place.)
--
Miron Schmidt <mi...@comports.com> PGP key on request
WATCH TV... MARRY AND REPRODUCE... OBEY... PLAY INTERACTIVE FICTION...
Nat Lanza
> You mean there are games which intentionally don't save properly at
> critical points, and _don't tell you_?!?
>
> If so, there's a huge cultural divide here. I can't imagine enjoying a
> game like that. It sounds more like a cruel no-holds-barred struggle
> between player and author, which isn't the sort of thing I look for in
> IF.
Yep. And then there's the other objection to save limitations -- what
if I'm not saving so I can make a puzzle easier, but instead because
I'd like to stop playing the game? There are few things I hate more in
a game than being told that I can't save and quit now because the
author was afraid that it'd make his puzzle too easy.
If saving makes the puzzle too easy, then perhaps the puzzle wasn't
designed very well. Also, if the player wants to make the game easier
by playing save tricks, why should you stop them? The only experience
they're ruining is their own.
As far as I'm concerned, save restrictions are a game author's way of
saying "Hi, I'd like to make my game harder, but I didn't want to have
to think up better puzzles, so instead I'm going to saddle you with
annoying restrictions."
--nat
--
nat lanza --------------------- research programmer, parallel data lab, cmu scs
ma...@cs.cmu.edu -------------------------------- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~magus/
there are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths -- alfred north whitehead
Adam Atkinson
>I was just rather
>surprised to read in the documentation to the Z-code ports that as few
>additions as possible had been made.
This is because it's an exercise in restoration more than anything
else. The experience should be as authentic as possible.
> The porters seemed to be trumpeting
>genuine flaws -- or what I see as flaws -- as essential elements of
>classic games.
It's not so much trumpeting as a warning. These games have been
restored to life in something as close to their original state as
could be managed.
Please note that they weren't really "ported". Graham has written a
cross-compiler which turns Phoenix source into zcode. We have made as
few changed to the Phoenix source code as possible - this is partly
because the original games were known to work well enough to have
withstood several years' play by moderate numbers of people. Anything
that appeared to be a bug was thus probably the translator. Changing
the Phoenix source would interfere with this.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
A hollow voice says "PLUGH"
J R Partington
>As far as I'm concerned, save restrictions are a game author's way of
>saying "Hi, I'd like to make my game harder, but I didn't want to have
>to think up better puzzles, so instead I'm going to saddle you with
>annoying restrictions."
No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
cryptic messages).
Once you have the message you need to demonstrate that you know what
it means by rushing through the maze. If instead you save the game and
later find the correct route by trial and error, then you have not
solved the puzzle.
Many variations on this theme are possible, of course.
Saving and restoring is such an artificial thing to do anyway (when did
you last manage it in real life?) that maybe it should be banned in
all games 8-)
JRP
---
In "Curse of the Mystic Spy of Bradford," you escape the giant by
climbing a tree but don't forget to burn the mushroom.
Adam Atkinson
>Fyleet certainly has lots of instant death rooms. What _is_ the
>attraction in this? I just don't see how it adds to the game at all.
I don't know that it's an "attraction". But I don't find it that big a
problem. Once you know that Mnem, the spook and the nightmare (for
instance) are all lethal, you avoid them until you think you know how
to survive them.
>Perhaps I am just unused to this style of game. I tend to wander around
>randomly until I get my bearings, rather than draw a map, but it's
>rather difficult to get your bearings when you fall into a spiked pit or
>get killed by orcs every tenth move.
You're not likely to get your bearings in something like Acheton.
>> But if you haven't played Quondam or Xeno, you shouldn't imagine you
>> know what cruelty is.
>Heh. Now there's a challenge.
Well, Graham should be making Xeno available shortly. (prod! prod!).
Quondam may be lost for ever. I'm not sure which was harder...
Adam Atkinson
>You mean there are games which intentionally don't save properly at
>critical points, and _don't tell you_?!?
No. There are some which don't allow saves at all in certain areas.
There is at least one which in some cases will allow saves, but drop
strong hints that the save is useless.
Crispin Boylan
Graham Nelson wrote:
>
>
> Does anybody here know who wrote "Sphinx", by the way?
>
> (I rather liked it, myself.)
>
It was by Paul Fellows. I didnt like it that much - no save game feature sort
of annoyed me! :)
Cheers
Cris
Gareth Rees
> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
> cryptic messages).
It's often possible to arrange things so that the game can *tell*
whether or not the player has really solved the puzzle, or is just
guessing.
For example, suppose an adventure game had the "find one counterfeit
coin out of twelve in three weighings on a balance" puzzle [1]. The
writer of the game could use the following implementation:
* keep track of which possibilities the player has ruled out in the
weighings so far;
* when the player sets up a weighing, choose at random a result that
is consistent with the remaining possibilities;
* at the end when the player has revealed which coin they think is
counterfeit, let them win only if there is a single possibility
remaining and they named it correctly. If there are multiple
possibilities remaining, the game reveals one of the possibilities
the player didn't name and thus the player loses.
With this implementation, saving the game does the player no good.
Neither does guessing randomly. So the player must really solve the
puzzle.
This is obviously a bit more work for the author -- and not all puzzles
can easily be made to fit this kind of implementation strategy -- but I
think it gives a much better impression of fairness to the player than
just denying the player the opportunity to save the game.
[1] Don't do this! It's been done before.
--
Gareth Rees
Nat Lanza
> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
> cryptic messages).
I don't think I have missed the point. If you want to require the
player to find the cryptic message before solving the maze, make the
maze unsolvable until the player gets the message. With appropriate
"You seem to be getting completely lost"-style hinting, only the most
bloody-minded players will keep trying to brute-force solve the maze.
Restricting saves so you don't have to do this is a shortcut for the
author. It isn't necessary for this sort of puzzle, it just makes
writing them easier.
> Once you have the message you need to demonstrate that you know what
> it means by rushing through the maze. If instead you save the game and
> later find the correct route by trial and error, then you have not
> solved the puzzle.
So what stops a player from saving as close to the maze as possible
and then brute-forcing it? Unless you disable saving entirely, you
don't. And if you make a long game that doesn't have a save feature,
you've just managed to make an unplayable game.
Determined players will find a wrong way around and puzzle. You can't
stop that. So why inconvenience everybody to protect your puzzle from
a pathological few?
> Many variations on this theme are possible, of course.
>
> Saving and restoring is such an artificial thing to do anyway (when did
> you last manage it in real life?) that maybe it should be banned in
> all games 8-)
See, this ties into the realism issue. I don't play games to have a
totally realistic experience. I play them to have fun. Not being able
to save and quit when I want to is not fun. I don't like games that
aren't fun.
Gareth Rees
> Determined players will find a wrong way around any puzzle. You can't
> stop that. So why inconvenience everyone to protect your puzzle from
> a pathological few?
I think there's a bit of a culture clash here. The only people who had
*any* hope of solving the harder Phoenix games were the people who were
extremely determined and stubborn. These games were written for a very
specific audience -- exactly the kind of people who would think nothing
of brute-forcing a solution!
--
Gareth Rees
Andrew Plotkin
> pmt...@gps.leeds.ac.uk (J R Partington) writes:
>
>> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
>> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
>> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
>> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
>> cryptic messages).
>
> I don't think I have missed the point. If you want to require the
> player to find the cryptic message before solving the maze, make the
> maze unsolvable until the player gets the message. With appropriate
> "You seem to be getting completely lost"-style hinting, only the most
> bloody-minded players will keep trying to brute-force solve the maze.
Well, there are tradeoffs either way.
In most instances of that particular maze-case, I agree with you. But a
maze where the game tells you to not even try *is* a different experience.
At worst, it's a one-room area with a constant description, where trying
to move around has no effect (or is not permitted.) That's just dull. I
mean, the player won't even really feel like he's lost in a maze. It's
just a room with an indistinct description.
You could have a random-movement maze, where moving around has
non-deterministic results. That can work, but it can also break realism to
some extent, depending on the setting.
(You say that you don't play for realism, but this is a matter of degree
just like anything else. Everyone eventually hits the point where they say
"The author is putting words on the screen, but they don't make a damn bit
of sense.")
Another approach is to have a well-described maze, with lots of rooms that
you can distinguish (if only by their exits). But then one exit has to
mysteriously change when you learn the key information. This too is very
jarring. "I already *tried* that!" (One common dodge is making an exit
*appear*, where you didn't notice it before.)
> Restricting saves so you don't have to do this is a shortcut for the
> author. It isn't necessary for this sort of puzzle, it just makes
> writing them easier.
It's neither a shortcut nor a necessity; it's one solution to a well-known
design problem.
Of course, the favored solution for maze design these days (meaning the
past fifteen years) has been "leave it out". But there are lots of other
instances of the brute-force-approachable puzzle, and not all of them are
worn out. (And even mazes can inspire fresh approaches, of course.)
Miron Schmidt
James M. Power
time the game was installed, so you couldn't ask someone else for their
solution. It would be a logical extension to make a puzzle that changed
the code each time the game was started (or restarted) and then you
would have to decode, as opposed to brute force.
As a side note, I thought Spider and Web was a masterful exercise in the
different handling of save. It reminded me of classical musicians who
would pose a specific problem and then work it out in a beautiful piece
of music.
-Jim Power
J R Partington wrote:
>
> In article <uoczoyy...@evelake.pdl.cs.cmu.edu> Nat Lanza <ma...@cs.cmu.edu> writes:
>
> >As far as I'm concerned, save restrictions are a game author's way of
> >saying "Hi, I'd like to make my game harder, but I didn't want to have
> >to think up better puzzles, so instead I'm going to saddle you with
> >annoying restrictions."
>
> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
> cryptic messages).
>
> Once you have the message you need to demonstrate that you know what
> it means by rushing through the maze. If instead you save the game and
> later find the correct route by trial and error, then you have not
> solved the puzzle.
>
> Many variations on this theme are possible, of course.
>
> Saving and restoring is such an artificial thing to do anyway (when did
> you last manage it in real life?) that maybe it should be banned in
> all games 8-)
>
Adam Atkinson
>So what stops a player from saving as close to the maze as possible
>and then brute-forcing it?
Nothing. Saves are disabled as soon as you are given the information
necessary to solve the maze, and become possible again when you finish
it. This is not as much of an imposition as it may sound... all will
become clear when the game in question becomes available again.
>Determined players will find a wrong way around and puzzle. You can't
>stop that. So why inconvenience everybody to protect your puzzle from
>a pathological few?
It's not as much of an inconvenience as you seem to think. e.g. not
being able to save in the marsh in Crobe can't possibly represent much
of an inconvenience, can it?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
BRITISH PUSH BOTTLES UP ENEMY
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> Um. What I mean is that there are a few areas in some Phoenix games
> where you aren't allowed to save. This is so that you can't do some of
> the puzzles by brute force. "undo" should probably not be allowed in
> these areas either.
This is not restricted to Phoenix games. In "Spellbreaker", when
assaying the cubes in the vault an attempt to save results in a
message like "That spell will not work here.".
Ingeniously, it also rigs what seem to be random events so that
if you don't choose the right strategy, you can't win just by luck.
Adam Atkinson
>> Um. What I mean is that there are a few areas in some Phoenix games
>> where you aren't allowed to save. This is so that you can't do some of
>> the puzzles by brute force. "undo" should probably not be allowed in
>> these areas either.
>This is not restricted to Phoenix games. In "Spellbreaker", when
>assaying the cubes in the vault an attempt to save results in a
>message like "That spell will not work here.".
is "undo" also barred? I don't remember if Infocom games knew "undo"
>Ingeniously, it also rigs what seem to be random events so that
>if you don't choose the right strategy, you can't win just by luck.
That I remember. :-)
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
You've got to get a hat if you want to get ahead.
Steven Marsh
wrote:
<snip>
>It's often possible to arrange things so that the game can *tell*
>whether or not the player has really solved the puzzle, or is just
>guessing.
>
I think the game where this was done did it right this way, such that
saving, hard-wired undo's, whatever didn't allow it to work (at least,
that was my experience when using WinFROTZ).
Steven Marsh
ma...@nettally.com
Keeper of the Unofficial Legend Text Adventure Archive
www.waitingforgo.com/legend
BrenBarn
>you last manage it in real life?) that maybe it should be banned in
>all games 8-)
pick that up." :-)
From,
Brendan B. B. (Bren...@aol.com)
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
J R Partington
>
>So what stops a player from saving as close to the maze as possible
>don't. And if you make a long game that doesn't have a save feature,
>you've just managed to make an unplayable game.
>
>stop that. So why inconvenience everybody to protect your puzzle from
>a pathological few?
Again you are missing the point---my fault for not explaining well
enough. One last try:
It is hardly a big restriction on your saving rights if the following
happens (and only for the purposes of this particular puzzle):
An enchanted wobblefiend says "SUNBURN" to you in a meaningful
fashion, and warns you to act on the information at once. You are then
supposed to go to the Labyrinth of the Sacred Turnip and make the
following moves: SOUTH, UP, NORTH, BACK, UP, RIGHT, NORTH, before you
next save the game. If you haven't the stamina to play for 5 minutes
without saving, then perhaps you should take up something less
strenuous, like sitting in a deckchair.
Of course, SUNBURN won't work until you have been told the
route (and next time you play the game it might be WELDERS).
JRP
---
In "Countdown to the Nymphomaniac Ninja of Hamil," you escape the
quicksand by climbing down the rope but don't forget to break the egg.
Lucian Paul Smith
: In article <1046.919T2871...@mistral.co.uk>, Adam Atkinson
: <URL:mailto:gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
: > Um. What I mean is that there are a few areas in some Phoenix games
: > where you aren't allowed to save. This is so that you can't do some of
: > the puzzles by brute force. "undo" should probably not be allowed in
: > these areas either.
: This is not restricted to Phoenix games. In "Spellbreaker", when
: assaying the cubes in the vault an attempt to save results in a
: message like "That spell will not work here.".
There's a modern example no-one's mentioned yet: Kissing the Buddha's
Feet. In it, if you saved or undid a turn, the identity of the chocolates
changed around.
A modern counter-example: 'Grip', with the clocks.
Both were appropriate design choices--*for that game*. IMHO, of
course. But talking about this too much in the abstract defeats the
purpose, I think.
-Lucian
Adam Atkinson
>Both were appropriate design choices--*for that game*.
I think the choice was equally appropriate in the Phoenix instances in
question.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
If I were a bumble bee
Z wouldn't be a U.F.D.
Nat Lanza
> Again you are missing the point---my fault for not explaining well
> enough. One last try:
No, I'm not misunderstanding you. I simply disagree with
you. Surprisingly enough, there is a difference.
Perhaps you're missing my point.
> It is hardly a big restriction on your saving rights if the following
> happens (and only for the purposes of this particular puzzle):
I'm not talking about any sort of "saving rights". I'm talking about
convenience. If I decide to stop playing a game, I'd like to be able
to stop and save at any point. It's annoying to have to fiddle around
for a while to get somewhere where the author has decided that it's
okay for me to save. Save restrictions won't make it impossible for me
to play, and I'm perfectly capable of playing games with them. I
simply don't like them.
> If you haven't the stamina to play for 5 minutes
> without saving, then perhaps you should take up something less
> strenuous, like sitting in a deckchair.
This has nothing to do with stamina, but thank you for being insulting
anyway. I appreciated the thought. Too many people these days simply
assume that those who disagree with them have differing
opinions. Nobody seems to have the courage to state that those who
disagree must have something wrong with them anymore. It's quite a
tragedy.
Look, I'll say it again. I am perfectly capable of playing games with
save restrictions. I have played and enjoyed such games. However, save
restrictions annoy me, and I would rather play games that do not have
them. You disagree; that's fine. Some have stated that these games
were designed for hardcore puzzle freaks. This is also fine. I'm not stating
that _no one_ should like save restrictions, as I really can't dictate
anyone else's opinion. All I can do is state my own.
J. Mancera
Partington) wrote:
>In "Countdown to the Nymphomaniac Ninja of Hamil," you escape the
>quicksand by climbing down the rope but don't forget to break the egg.
Your sigs. are intriguing. Are they referred to actual games or are
they simply jokes?
-J.M.
J R Partington
>
>> If you haven't the stamina to play for 5 minutes
>> without saving, then perhaps you should take up something less
>> strenuous, like sitting in a deckchair.
>
>This has nothing to do with stamina, but thank you for being insulting
>anyway. I appreciated the thought. Too many people these days simply
>assume that those who disagree with them have differing
>opinions. Nobody seems to have the courage to state that those who
>disagree must have something wrong with them anymore. It's quite a
>tragedy.
You're welcome---I'm afraid I was away the day they taught tolerance
at school, but I'm told that some people like the idea. Hey, I've just
had this amazing idea for a puzzle which involves putting up a
deckchair and sitting in it.
>Look, I'll say it again. I am perfectly capable of playing games with
>save restrictions. I have played and enjoyed such games. However, save
>restrictions annoy me, and I would rather play games that do not have
>them. You disagree; that's fine. Some have stated that these games
>were designed for hardcore puzzle freaks. This is also fine. I'm not stating
>that _no one_ should like save restrictions, as I really can't dictate
>anyone else's opinion. All I can do is state my own.
They were really designed for anyone who was interested, but, yes,
such people tended to like puzzles. Maybe it is annoying to have save
restrictions in games, but sometimes it is unavoidable if you want to
provide a particular puzzle and make sure that the player solves it.
JRP
--
In "Curse of the Leather Goddesses of Murdac," you escape the dragon
by disguising yourself but don't forget to interrogate the cheese.
J R Partington
>
>>In "Countdown to the Nymphomaniac Ninja of Hamil," you escape the
>>quicksand by climbing down the rope but don't forget to break the egg.
>
>Your sigs. are intriguing. Are they referred to actual games or are
>they simply jokes?
Generated by a program called GROAN; made of references to real games,
and events in them; purely frivolous.
JRP
---
In "Quest of the Colossal Goddesses of Cambridge," you escape the
spirits in the cornfield by saying "Zooge," but don't forget to drop
the sceptre.
Adam Atkinson
(re JRP1's sigs)
>>In "Countdown to the Nymphomaniac Ninja of Hamil," you escape the
>>quicksand by climbing down the rope but don't forget to break the egg.
>Your sigs. are intriguing. Are they referred to actual games or are
>they simply jokes?
They look like output from JRP1's "groan" program. The game names,
puzzles, solutions and objects are in many cases taken from real
games, but all mixed up.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
VOLCANO MISSING FEARED DEAD
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> They look like output from JRP1's "groan" program. The game names,
> puzzles, solutions and objects are in many cases taken from real
> games, but all mixed up.
Much as "Eliza" was a Rogerian psychotherapist, "Groan" provided
a sort of artificially intelligent Claude Levi-Strauss, offering
structuralist analyses of all literary forms. The classic
"groan with drwho" option, for instance, used a database of all
170 Dr Who plots arranged in a Vladimir Propp-like fashion in
order to explore the Derridean jouissance of a random story in
Dr Who-space, piecing together fragments such as "but the Master
escapes in a hovercraft" with an almost... an almost authorial
bricolage.
Graham Nelson
<URL:mailto:pmt...@gps.leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>In "Countdown to the Nymphomaniac Ninja of Hamil," you escape the
> >>quicksand by climbing down the rope but don't forget to break the egg.
> >
> >Your sigs. are intriguing. Are they referred to actual games or are
> >they simply jokes?
>
> and events in them; purely frivolous.
So... which game has the word "Nymphomaniac" in the title, uncle
Jonathan?
J R Partington
>
>Much as "Eliza" was a Rogerian psychotherapist, "Groan" provided
>a sort of artificially intelligent Claude Levi-Strauss, offering
>structuralist analyses of all literary forms. The classic
>"groan with drwho" option, for instance, used a database of all
>170 Dr Who plots arranged in a Vladimir Propp-like fashion in
>order to explore the Derridean jouissance of a random story in
>Dr Who-space, piecing together fragments such as "but the Master
>escapes in a hovercraft" with an almost... an almost authorial
>bricolage.
Actually, a web version of Groan exists, but the author (not me)
doesn't want the whole world thrashing her computer. To let Groan
speak for itself:
Recalling Ricoeur, the reader will enthrone the structurally proleptic
interconnectivities of intertextual rarefaction regarding the
pseudo-structuralization of this (!) sparsely transdiciplinary positivity.
In next week's Dr Who story a dream of Tegan's causes the Doctor to head
for the planet Peladon, where he encounters the hideous form of Count
Grendel, who travelled forward from 1638 by means of a strange potion.
Unfortunately the Castrovalvans are artificially aged and turn into a pile
of dead leaves and so the Doctor destroys the aliens with sulphuric acid.
Of course in 1946 there was a lunar eclipse which was mind-blowing it
signalled the end of the world as we know it and I got blurred shots using
time-lapse there'll be another one in 2057 which will be visible from
Kerguelen Island of course the Egyptians thought they were caused by a
goblin singing to the moon did you know that Halley conducted human
sacrifices when they came round...
JRP