=========================================================================== = === First of all, please apologize for the cross-posting, but i wanted to contact all of the online Interactive Fiction Comunity =========================================================================== = ===
Dear All
As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this newsgroups seems to be the only common place to find them (apart from 1 or 2 major reviewers own webpages) and as such I decided today to create a special place to have them all together.
This place will be called www.ifreviews.org (i already have the domain), and it will be based on PHP/MySQL, to enable speed searchs/access, but specially online reviews editing :)
For what i could understand, there are already some, more or less, review based websites, and also that reviewers might want to keep their own reviews webpage anyway, so I decided to enable the reviewers (in each review at ifreviews.org) to be able to show a link their own webpage's review. So that there's a link exchange between ifreviews.org and the reviewers own webpage. Im sure that even with the duplication of reviews, this is the best solution for reviewers.
Later on (only after next tuesday im affraid) i will give you all more precise details, in the meantime, should you have any ideas about this subject, please feel free to contact me via email rootsh...@netcabo.pt.
There are some things that were already thought about (by friends of mine), but nothing was decided yet, things like:
- Fields you think are mandatory to be included in a review - Search facilities that users might want - Kind of ranking (0 to x, should x be 10 or 100, integer or not) - Review size limit (words/kb)
Things that are already covered:
- Webmaster decision/power to cancel any reviewer's account (due to unproper use) and even ban from site. - Reviewer login/accounts - Online creation/editing/delete of reviews - Reviewers ranking (votes from other reviewers, so that reviewers take special care on how they review the games, making it more important to have quality rather than quantity) - Games ranking/category/system/language/author/Authoring_System/Links_to_game_file s (external) - Author rankings/information/website - Search by: game/author/word/category/rank/date/event
To prevent anyone from feeling that his/hers work was used/copied/stealed without his/hers concent, a "terms of use" document will be implemented, which *must* be agreeded prior to concluding the registration process by means of a email confirmation. This email will serve as prove of authorization to publish online any review that the reviewer decides to publish.
I know that this should have been ready sooner so that this years IfComp.org reviews could be entered, but i really only decided today to give it a go, and let me tell you that it's a joy to be able to finally do something for this world of IF that i so much love :)
Please forgive me if I sound to confusing, but it's late now (02:45), and i just wanted to let the IF Comunity know about this new project, which *has* to be ready before the end of the Spring Comp (according to my plans) :)
Im counting on you to go ahead with this project, where the newcomers can find useful information about what games to try first :).
Any sugestion is welcome, since this site will be made for you but particulary by you... The Intereactive Fiction Comunity!
"RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> wrote in message <news:419c0e90$0$3217$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>... > As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this newsgroups > seems to be the only common place to find them (apart from 1 or 2 major > reviewers own webpages) and as such I decided today to create a special > place to have them all together.
SOunds like a great idea. I remember spending ages last year scouring the internet for reviews of my game and something like this would have saved ages.
> SOunds like a great idea. I remember spending ages last year scouring > the internet for reviews of my game and something like this would have > saved ages.
I will have to build it from scratch, but i will do it...
Lots of ideas are already arriving by email, so I will try to listen to every possible contribution/feature and then layout a format here to see what people can improve on.
"RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> wrote in message <news:419c0e90$0$3217$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>... > =========================================================================== = > === > First of all, please apologize for the cross-posting, but i wanted to > contact all of the online Interactive Fiction Comunity > =========================================================================== = > ===
> Dear All
> As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this newsgroups > seems to be the only common place to find them (apart from 1 or 2 major > reviewers own webpages) and as such I decided today to create a special > place to have them all together.
> This place will be called www.ifreviews.org (i already have the domain), and > it will be based on PHP/MySQL, to enable speed searchs/access, but specially > online reviews editing :)
> For what i could understand, there are already some, more or less, review > based websites, and also that reviewers might want to keep their own reviews > webpage anyway, so I decided to enable the reviewers (in each review at > ifreviews.org) to be able to show a link their own webpage's review. So that > there's a link exchange between ifreviews.org and the reviewers own webpage. > Im sure that even with the duplication of reviews, this is the best solution > for reviewers.
> Later on (only after next tuesday im affraid) i will give you all more > precise details, in the meantime, should you have any ideas about this > subject, please feel free to contact me via email rootsh...@netcabo.pt.
> There are some things that were already thought about (by friends of mine), > but nothing was decided yet, things like:
> - Fields you think are mandatory to be included in a review > - Search facilities that users might want
Maybe accompanied by an alphanumeric index of the games?
> - Kind of ranking (0 to x, should x be 10 or 100, integer or not)
IMHO I recommend x = 10. 100 seems to high; just allow people to use decimals like 9.5 or 6.25.
> - Review size limit (words/kb)
If bandwidth/size for site becomes a problem, sure. If it isn't I recommend separating them into categories by size so visitors can decide how indepth they want (spoilers, no spoilers, spoilers-detailed etc...)
> Things that are already covered:
> - Webmaster decision/power to cancel any reviewer's account (due to > unproper use) and even ban from site.
That should be a rule on every site of that type as the webmaster is responsible for the site's rep.
> - Reviewer login/accounts > - Online creation/editing/delete of reviews
Only by webmaster,admin(s), and authors.
> - Reviewers ranking (votes from other reviewers, so that reviewers take > special care on how they review the games, making it more important to have > quality rather than quantity)
> - Games > ranking/category/system/language/author/Authoring_System/Links_to_game_file s > (external) > - Author rankings/information/website > - Search by: game/author/word/category/rank/date/event
> To prevent anyone from feeling that his/hers work was used/copied/stealed > without his/hers concent, a "terms of use" document will be implemented, > which *must* be agreeded prior to concluding the registration process by > means of a email confirmation. This email will serve as prove of > authorization to publish online any review that the reviewer decides to > publish.
> I know that this should have been ready sooner so that this years IfComp.org > reviews could be entered, but i really only decided today to give it a go, > and let me tell you that it's a joy to be able to finally do something for > this world of IF that i so much love :)
> Please forgive me if I sound to confusing, but it's late now (02:45), and i > just wanted to let the IF Comunity know about this new project, which *has* > to be ready before the end of the Spring Comp (according to my plans) :)
> Im counting on you to go ahead with this project, where the newcomers can > find useful information about what games to try first :).
> Any sugestion is welcome, since this site will be made for you but > particulary by you... The Intereactive Fiction Comunity!
As far as rankings go, I highly recommend a 1-10 scale, with no decimals.
Every succesful ranking system I've ever seen is very simple. IMDB.com uses a 1-10 scale. The IF ratings site at carouselchain uses a 1-10 to much success. Movie critics use a 4 star system which essentially has eight or nine different rankings.
The more possible rankings you allow, the more muddled the rankings become. After all, how can a person really distinguish the difference between 68/100 and 66/100? Or if you use a 1-10 scale with decimals, you have the same problem. What's the difference between 7.2 and 7.1?
SPAG used to have a rating system similar, with the scale being from 0.0 to 2.0, and the ratings seemed inconsistent and hard to evaluate.
I would also avoid rating different parts of the game like story, writing, plot, etc. as it allows the rater to think way too hard about their ratings, and they will often underrate the game because of it. Games that purposely don't have a plot, but are still excellent nevertheless, would be hurt by such a rating system. All that really matters is if a person liked the game overall, unless you're handing out awards for specific aspects like the Oscars (or, in our case, the Erins) does.
>For what i could understand, there are already some, more or less, review >based websites, and also that reviewers might want to keep their own reviews >webpage anyway, so I decided to enable the reviewers (in each review at >ifreviews.org) to be able to show a link their own webpage's review. So that >there's a link exchange between ifreviews.org and the reviewers own webpage. >Im sure that even with the duplication of reviews, this is the best solution >for reviewers.
Duplication of reviews is a feature, not a bug. We could do with redundancy. If one site goes down, whether temporarily or permanently, the review is still available.
[snip]
>There are some things that were already thought about (by friends of mine), >but nothing was decided yet, things like:
> - Fields you think are mandatory to be included in a review
Not neceesarily mandatory, but these should be sought:
Item title, subtitle (details on series), author (as released), author (real name), reviewer, review text, natural language, game language, where to download, ***where to download game system run-time***, year of creation, part of (for contest entries), commercial or not.
Aside from the reviews:
Contact information for the authors and reviewers. These could be used to validate some field entries. The contact information could simply be "DND" (Do not disturb.) if the person does not want correspondence.
Lists of contests (used to validate "part of" anyway).
> - Search facilities that users might want
By any field and by keyword. Keyword should be by field or by all fields. Sort by any combination of short fields. (By "short fields", I mean anything but the review text itself.)
> - Kind of ranking (0 to x, should x be 10 or 100, integer or not)
IFComp uses 1 to 10, but why limit it? I tend to think of letter grades as better.
> - Review size limit (words/kb)
No. This is the sort of thing that will sort itself out automaticaly.
>Things that are already covered:
> - Webmaster decision/power to cancel any reviewer's account (due to >unproper use) and even ban from site.
A must-have.
> - Reviewer login/accounts > - Online creation/editing/delete of reviews
Yes to both.
> - Reviewers ranking (votes from other reviewers, so that reviewers take >special care on how they review the games, making it more important to have >quality rather than quantity)
Not really needed.
> - Games >ranking/category/system/language/author/Authoring_System/Links_to_game_fil es >(external) > - Author rankings/information/website > - Search by: game/author/word/category/rank/date/event
Yes.
>To prevent anyone from feeling that his/hers work was used/copied/stealed >without his/hers concent, a "terms of use" document will be implemented, >which *must* be agreeded prior to concluding the registration process by >means of a email confirmation. This email will serve as prove of >authorization to publish online any review that the reviewer decides to >publish.
Fine.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.
On or about 11/29/2004 5:30 PM, Gene Wirchenko did proclaim:
> [snip]
> Contact information for the authors and reviewers. These could > be used to validate some field entries. The contact information could > simply be "DND" (Do not disturb.) if the person does not want > correspondence.
Have a check-box to obfuscate email addresses in the contact info. For example, Slashdot allows three choices:
Email Display [ ] Do not display an e-mail address. [X] Show your email address with random SPAM-armoring applied. [ ] Show your real email address without obfuscation.
That middle choice (which I use) allows people to permit correspondence without getting harvested by spam-bots.
> "RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> wrote: > IFComp uses 1 to 10, but why limit it? I tend to think of letter > grades as better.
Do you mean like in American schools? I think it is hard to understand how good a grade is with that system. I suspect many non-americans think the same.
>> IFComp uses 1 to 10, but why limit it? I tend to think of letter >> grades as better.
>Do you mean like in American schools? I think it is hard to understand how >good a grade is with that system. I suspect many non-americans think the >same.
Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point with the letters? -- Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se) PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:51:31 -0000, "RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> (replies to <"RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt>>) wrote:
> As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this newsgroups > seems to be the only common place to find them
What's so bad about that?
I certainly applaud the effort to get more feedback to authors. But is it worth asking why there's this big push lately to get reviews put on websites instead of posted to the group? Won't there be more feedback generated if reviews are posted *here,* since they can then be used as a jumping-off point for discussion?
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:48:53 -0500, Jason Melancon
<jason.melan...@verizon.net> wrote: >I certainly applaud the effort to get more feedback to authors. But is >it worth asking why there's this big push lately to get reviews put on >websites instead of posted to the group? Won't there be more feedback >generated if reviews are posted *here,* since they can then be used as >a jumping-off point for discussion?
You mean the entire review posted here? That could mean some high phone bills for folks still on slow dial-up modems!
But all reviews could have pointers posted here so that people who want to read them are aware of where they are.
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:51:31 -0000, "RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> > (replies to <"RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt>>) wrote: >> As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this >> newsgroups >> seems to be the only common place to find them
> What's so bad about that?
It's often a pain searching through the groups for reviews of a game you might want to play (or for reviews written about one of your own games). If they were all together in one place, it would be a lot easier.
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:11:09 +0000, RootShell wrote: > I will have to build it from scratch, but i will do it...
Are you sure that's true? I bet there is an existing package that would meet immediate needs.
In any event, I suggest you get the bare minimum working, see if they come once you build it and add features based on what your visitors think is important.
Magnus Olsson wrote: > Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, > add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic > operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation > scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point > with the letters?
Traditionally, A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0.
I think the letters have stuck because it's easier to remember "A is best" than to remember "4 is best". But any reasonably bright high-school student knows what a "4.0 average" means.
>>> IFComp uses 1 to 10, but why limit it? I tend to think of letter >>> grades as better.
>>Do you mean like in American schools? I think it is hard to understand how >>good a grade is with that system. I suspect many non-americans think the >>same.
Do you really need antything more than A = Excellent B = Very Good C = Adequate D = Marginal F = Fail
YMWV anyway.
>Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, >add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic >operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation
...and otherwise pretend that one is performing valid operations on data.
>scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point >with the letters?
But the statistics are rather meaningless. Is a seven for one game the same as a seven for another?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.
>>In article <41ac598...@news.broadpark.no>, >>Jan Thorsby <no_jthorsby_s...@broadpark.no> wrote: >>>Do you mean like in American schools? I think it is hard to understand how >>>good a grade is with that system. I suspect many non-americans think the >>>same.
> Do you really need antything more than > A = Excellent > B = Very Good > C = Adequate > D = Marginal > F = Fail
> YMWV anyway.
Well, you still have to know that the scale comprises those letters - unlike, for example, the pre-1960's Swedish system which used the grades A, a, Ab, BA, B and C or something like that (I'm too young ever to have experienced it).
>>Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, >>add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic >>operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation
> ...and otherwise pretend that one is performing valid operations >on data.
Yes. :-) Whether they're valid or not, people will be interested in things like average scores, standard deviations and such. If nothing else, they can pretend that these numbers mean anything.
(And I submit that they do, but in a rather fuzzy way, given that enough people grade enough games. If one gazillion people give my game a low grade, it probably means something.)
>>scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point >>with the letters?
> But the statistics are rather meaningless. Is a seven for one >game the same as a seven for another?
Aye, that's the rub.
But people will do statistics, if nothing else then just for the sheer joy of data manipulation. Using letter grades won't stop them, it will just add a meaningless level of complication.
> Magnus Olsson wrote: > > Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, > > add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic > > operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation > > scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point > > with the letters?
"RootShell" <rootsh...@netcabo.pt> wrote in message <news:419c0e90$0$3217$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>... > As we all know IF reviews are scatered all over the web, and this newsgroups > seems to be the only common place to find them (apart from 1 or 2 major > reviewers own webpages) and as such I decided today to create a special > place to have them all together.
> This place will be called www.ifreviews.org (i already have the domain), and > it will be based on PHP/MySQL, to enable speed searchs/access, but specially > online reviews editing :)
I think the idea is great, and I think it will be worth the effort you put into it. However, have you considered trying to make it a part of the IF Ratings site? These are the advantages that I can see:
* IFRS already has a connection to Baf's guide built, ensuring that new games in the archive make it into IFRS too. * IFRS already has the necessary handling of database, accounts, scores, statistics, searching etc. * A large number of the people who write reviews already have an account at IFRS. Less fuss for them. * Baf's guide is rather tightly integrated with if-archive. IFRS is rather tightly integrated with Baf's guide. Both of these integrations are Good Things, but they would be even more powerful if the integration was complete - if-archive linking to Baf's for each file where it's applicable, Baf's linking to IF Ratings for each game etc. I think the very best idea would be to have all three merged into one single, seamless site. Assuming that won't happen for a while, adding a review site that doesn't integrate with any of these is still a pretty good idea. Making it integrate with one or more of them is even better. Making it part of one of them is the best idea - that would make the reviews site more useful, which would make people use it even more.
Of course, this requires that the developer of the IF Ratings site to thinks this is a great idea. Also, this approach to the project can only happen if you want to develop this in the way that's the most useful to the community. If your motivation for this project is to exercise your PHP skills and work on a pet project of your own, without having to cooperate with someone else, this approach just won't be possible.
>> Do you really need antything more than >> A = Excellent >> B = Very Good >> C = Adequate >> D = Marginal >> F = Fail
>> YMWV anyway.
> Well, you still have to know that the scale comprises those > letters - unlike, for example, the pre-1960's Swedish system which > used the grades A, a, Ab, BA, B and C or something like that (I'm > too young ever to have experienced it).
For those as curious as me, here's the complete old Swedish scale (I'm also too young, but I consulted my mother):
A = Excellent, Laudatur = 3 a = Passed with great distinction, Cum insigniore laude approbatur=2˝ AB= Passed with distinction, Cum laude approbatur = 2 Ba= Passed with credit, Non sine laude approbatur = 1˝ B = Passed, Approbatur = 1 BC= Not fully passed (no latin phrase) = ˝ C = Failed, Non admittur = 0
In addition, there was a second scale, used for grading behaviour:
> Magnus Olsson wrote: >> Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, >> add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic >> operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation >> scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point >> with the letters?
> Magnus Olsson wrote: > > Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, > > add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic > > operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation > > scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point > > with the letters?
> Traditionally, A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0.
> I think the letters have stuck because it's easier to remember "A is > best" than to remember "4 is best". But any reasonably bright > high-school student knows what a "4.0 average" means.
Hope noone gets upset at this but the international/universal interger numeric rating was adopted (based on several email/opinions), meaning reviewers will be using a 0 to 10 integer scale (no decimals), with 0 being the worst and 10 the best.
This appears to be the best practice, and enables several reviewers worldwide to just paste their existing reviews at ifreviews, without the need to change their rate.
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, RootShell wrote: > Hope noone gets upset at this but the international/universal interger > numeric rating was adopted (based on several email/opinions), meaning > reviewers will be using a 0 to 10 integer scale (no decimals), with 0 > being the worst and 10 the best.
> This appears to be the best practice, and enables several reviewers > worldwide to just paste their existing reviews at ifreviews, without the > need to change their rate.
Except that most reviews I've seen tend to follow the IF Comp's practice, which is a scale that starts at 1, not 0. A minor difference.
/====================================================================\ || Quintin Stone O- > "You speak of necessary evil? One || || Code Monkey < of those necessities is that if || || Rebel Programmers Society > innocents must suffer, the guilty must || || st...@rps.net < suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun || || http://www.rps.net/QS/ > "Once Burned" by Peter David || \====================================================================/
>"John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@attglobal.net> skrev i melding >news:I98rd.3470$197.3127@fe12.lga... >> Magnus Olsson wrote: >>> Numeric scores have a big advantage: it's very easy to average them, >>> add them, comput estandard deviations, and other statistic >>> operations. With letter grades you have to have some translation >>> scheme to numbers before you can do that - and then what's the point >>> with the letters?
>> Traditionally, A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0.
>Oh so there is no E? That explains a lot!
Depends on the school. The 4-point system described here is really a college thing, often, but not invariably, and less in recent years than in the past, borrowed by high schools. The relative point assessment we used in my school district was:
A=90-100, B=80-89, C=70-79, D=60-69, E=0-59.
The F designation has traditionally replaced the E, but in many public schools, it was deemed excessively unkind to explicitly label such grades a 'Failure'
|
