jay is games best of...
jeremy...@gmail.com
http://jayisgames.com/best-of/2009/interactive-fiction-results/
and 60% of the "your" votes were for a couple games that I'm confident
would not place in the top 5 of the IFComp, and suspect might be south
of the Top 10. Any implications for IF from this?
--Jeremy
Erik Temple
Interface, interface, interface, I think. Take a look at the screenshots
for the top three games...
Jimmy Maher
wrote:
Well, I think the Jay Is Games community and the IF community are
looking for very different things. We scrutinize the writing closely
and advocate a "serious" approach to the form. We dream of compelling
stories set in fully-realized virtual worlds, and wonder if the day
will come when IF can qualify as a new form of literature. And the Jay
Is Games people... well, they're looking for something colorful,
amusing, and not too taxing to poke at for a few minutes on their
lunch breaks.
Jimmy
namekuseijin
I've said in the past and I'll say it again: casual gamers will never
get into IF at all. Some may laugh a bit on the "novelty" or enjoy the
humor, never to look back again.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Poster
<18eda417-1995-42ec...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
"jeremy...@gmail.com" <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:
"My" votes? "Our" votes? Who are you talking to?
Regardless of that, there are quality games in there, so I fail to see
what the problem is. You can't account for taste.
Seriously, you're blowing a gasket because Slouching Towards Bedlam,
Alabaster, and Make it Good are in the list? Or are you hyperventilating
because Broken Legs made it at all? Really, what's the deal?
Placement in the IFComp means NOTHING. The IFComp is no predictor nor
guarantee of quality or value -- all it reflects is a FREAKING
popularity contest. That's it. So you're unhappy that the JIG popularity
contest isn't a replica of the IFComp popularity contest?
Please.
--
Poster
www.intaligo.com I6 libraries, doom metal, Building
sturmdrangif.wordpress.com Game development blog / IF commentary
Seasons: Q4 '10 -- One-man projects are prone to delays.
Jeremy Freese
gasket", or even "unhappy", about anything. I said "the 'your' votes"
because this is the phrasing used on the JIG site.
I thought the degree of discrepancy was curious and wondered if other
people had thoughts, especially given the degree of interest that had
been expressed by several people for attempting to write something for
the forthcoming JIG contest.
--Jeremy
On Jan 21, 6:43 pm, Poster <pos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article
> <18eda417-1995-42ec-82ee-e3184343d...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Conrad
Adventure, most conspicuously, I've never heard of.) Games that were
in the Comp we can rate, comp-wise, against each other; those that
weren't we can't.
Of the ones that were in Comp 09, the relative ranking in Jay Is
Games' list is:
Rover's Day Out
Byzantine Perspective
Broken Legs
The data for those games, listing Comp v. JIG:
Rover's Day Out (7.96 v. 3.39%)
Byzantine Perspective (5.76 v. 2.88%)
Broken Legs (7.39 v. 2.36%)
Within the set of games common to both Comp '09 and JIG, the only
difference is that the two games with lower scores swapped places.
But the JIG numbers are in such a narrow band (within less than 1%
difference) that surely we have to consider these a statistical tie.
(Really, if we look at the standards of deviation, we should often
consider the IF Comp first and second places to be tied.)
Now, if we figure that IF Comp scores are identical between 2003 and
2009, then we have another data point:
Slouching Toward Bedlam (8.39 v. 8.26%)
So these data from JIG are not surprising. They only look weird
because they include non-Comp games.
Conrad.
jeremy...@gmail.com
> So these data from JIG are not surprising. They only look weird
> because they include non-Comp games.
Yes, one hypothesis would be that the JIG voters and IFComp voters
assessments are actually fairly similar and that Llama Adventure would
have completely crushed Slouching Toward Bedlam had they been
simultaneous entrants in the IFComp. That's even the most
parsimonious explanation, I suppose. It doesn't accord with my own
experience of the two games, but others may have a different view.
--Jeremy
Conrad
wrote:
>
> Yes, one hypothesis would be that the JIG voters and IFComp voters
> assessments are actually fairly similar and that Llama Adventure would
> have completely crushed Slouching Toward Bedlam had they been
> simultaneous entrants in the IFComp.
Not having played Llama Adventure, and having not yet finished
Slouching on account of its extreme difficulty and not being able to
figure out what on Earth is going on, I don't know and won't say.
Feel free to make bold assertions with no data if that's your thing.
Conrad.
jeremy...@gmail.com
>
> Feel free to make bold assertions with no data if that's your thing.
>
Aw, Conrad, I thought you only got mean with Jenni and the Eruption
guy. Anyway, I do appreciate your effort to bring quantitative data
into the discussion, but I suspect we disagree on the value of having
actually looked at Llama Adventure for assessing whether or not the
Llama Adventure llandslide on JIG is a puzzle.
--Jeremy
Conrad
wrote:
You're cracking out of turn there. The controversy over whether we
ought to expect civilized behavior from members of the IF community is
now scheduled to fester, until Richard Bos or one of his hangers-on
see a chance to retaliate. Currently they have no chance, so you're
wasting your ammo.
Llama Adventure might be a lot of fun for a lot of people.
(Presumably it is.) It might be more fun for the JIG crowd than for
die-hard IF players. It might not meet the expectations of die-hard
IF players. It might have a better interface than classical IF, which
is a possibility someone brought up already. It might not qualify as
IF in most of our minds. The people on JIG might be easily amused.
They might have a Llama fetish. It might be programmed by a super-
genius who is more in touch with what the kids these days want. And
so on.
There are, in short, a profuse variety of possible reasons that Llama
Adventure beat out Slouching Toward Bedlam on JIG. But we *don't*
know that it *wouldn't* also beat out Slouching if the two were in a
Comp together. Your hunch is not data.
Speculations based on data are faulty enough. Speculations based on
hunches might be an amusing way to pass the time. But they're very
unlikely to be true.
We have no information here.
Conrad.
jeremy...@gmail.com
> ought to expect civilized behavior from members of the IF community is
> now scheduled to fester, until Richard Bos or one of his hangers-on
> see a chance to retaliate. Currently they have no chance, so you're
> wasting your ammo.
Hee. Fair point. (Note: I don't know Richard Bos and don't know who
his hangers-on are.)
> Llama Adventure might be a lot of fun for a lot of people.
> (Presumably it is.) It might be more fun for the JIG crowd than for
> die-hard IF players. It might not meet the expectations of die-hard
> IF players. It might have a better interface than classical IF, which
> is a possibility someone brought up already. It might not qualify as
> IF in most of our minds. The people on JIG might be easily amused.
> They might have a Llama fetish. It might be programmed by a super-
> genius who is more in touch with what the kids these days want. And
> so on.
>
> There are, in short, a profuse variety of possible reasons that Llama
> Adventure beat out Slouching Toward Bedlam on JIG. But we *don't*
> know that it *wouldn't* also beat out Slouching if the two were in a
> Comp together. Your hunch is not data.
>
> Speculations based on data are faulty enough. Speculations based on
> hunches might be an amusing way to pass the time. But they're very
> unlikely to be true.
>
> We have no information here.
We are perhaps not so bereft. We could look to IFDB, for instance, if
we imagine that ratings there probably correspond more with the IF
community assessments of games than with the JIG community assessments
(when the two diverge). Granted, only 5 people have rated Llama
Adventure, but they include some familiar community names; those
people see LA as a 1-3 star game. You can compare their ratings to
the 74 ratings of Slouching Toward Bedlam, the vast majority of which
are 4-5 stars.
In any case, I don't know when you are returning to Boston, but you
should come to PAX-East if you can. It would be great to see you
there.
--Jeremy
Conrad
wrote:
> We are perhaps not so bereft. We could look to IFDB, for instance, if
> we imagine that ratings there probably correspond more with the IF
> community assessments of games than with the JIG community assessments
> (when the two diverge). Granted, only 5 people have rated Llama
> Adventure, but they include some familiar community names; those
> people see LA as a 1-3 star game. You can compare their ratings to
> the 74 ratings of Slouching Toward Bedlam, the vast majority of which
> are 4-5 stars.
Ah, an interesting point. Yes, we could use the IFDB rating to rank
games against each other; I don't know why I didn't think of that.
That will be a useful trick for me; thanks!
> In any case, I don't know when you are returning to Boston, but you
> should come to PAX-East if you can. It would be great to see you
> there.
I'd like to meet you too, Jeremy; but it's regrettably out of the
question for me to make it to PAX-East, as I don't have air fare
home. When I return to the States I'll probably go to California,
anyway.
But let me know the next time you're in Cambodia.
Conrad.
Ron Newcomb
> I thought the degree of discrepancy was curious and wondered if other
> people had thoughts, especially given the degree of interest that had
> been expressed by several people for attempting to write something for
> the forthcoming JIG contest.
If Llama Adventure seems incongruous at the top, may I remind you of a
game involving an orc that talked in third person and set his own
pants on fire? That game stomped all others in its IF Comp.
The picture to Llama Adventure alone tells me the author sincerely
spent time on his entry. Sincerity and humor go a long way.
-R
jeremy...@gmail.com
> If Llama Adventure seems incongruous at the top, may I remind you of a
> game involving an orc that talked in third person and set his own
> pants on fire? That game stomped all others in its IF Comp.
>
> The picture to Llama Adventure alone tells me the author sincerely
> spent time on his entry. Sincerity and humor go a long way.
I didn't mean to say that Llama Adventure was sloppily done; it does
some cool things with layout and colors. But it's very different from
Lost Pig. Lost Pig was widely praised for the responsiveness of its
parser, for instance. Llama Adventure doesn't know the word
"examine" (only "look at") and doesn't allow any way of getting a room
description other than retyping "look around" every time.
In any case, it's clear some people are put off by my speculating on
how it would have done in the IFComp. And, of course, it's true that
I don't know.
--Jeremy
namekuseijin
> There are, in short, a profuse variety of possible reasons that Llama
> Adventure beat out Slouching Toward Bedlam on JIG. But we *don't*
> know that it *wouldn't* also beat out Slouching if the two were in a
> Comp together. Your hunch is not data.
IFComp is only for die-hard if-specialists who've been into it for the
past 3 decades. JIG is for the modern, casual, attention-deficit
players who want to give a laugh over some silly flash games in-
between lunch. So, they have a problem reading a dense 4-line
paragraph in the introduction? They just drop it and go play some
game written in some oh-so-funny ooga-booga cheek'n'tongue language.
it's like trying to sell dostoievki to naruto readers. You can't win.
Ron Newcomb
wrote:
> I didn't mean to say that Llama Adventure was sloppily done; it does
> some cool things with layout and colors. But it's very different from
> Lost Pig. Lost Pig was widely praised for the responsiveness of its
> parser, for instance.
And LA is praised for its lampooning of 16-bit RPG layout & colors. I
don't seem them as different at all; I file 'em both into my "old
school slapstick involving farm animals" bin. If the only criticism
you have against LA is that it doesn't support your preferred set of
synonyms, then I accuse you of being a big fan of the Pig, or, you're
just anti-llama.
....
You're a damn dirty llamaist, are you?
-R, with absurdity
Andrew Plotkin
>
> IFComp is only for die-hard if-specialists who've been into it for the
> past 3 decades. JIG is for the modern, casual, attention-deficit
> players who want to give a laugh over some silly flash games in-
> between lunch.
We'll find out when the JIG EscapeComp games are released, won't we?
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Erik Temple
> And the Jay
> Is Games people... well, they're looking for something colorful,
> amusing, and not too taxing to poke at for a few minutes on their
> lunch breaks.
>
> Jimmy
There is definitely something to this, but at the same time I think it's
important to look at the kind of attention interactive fiction gets on
JIG. If you gauge interest by number of comments, then even the most
demanding works of IF on the list (Make It Good, Slouching Towards Bedlam)
get interest that's comparable to the interest expressed for games in
other categories (categories far more conducive to 15 minutes' play over
the lunch hour). There is definitely a substantial audience of Jay Is
Games people that is interested in the kind of IF that the "IF community"
is interested in. I assume that this is why JIG decided to host an IF
competition.
But there are a lot more folks who voted for Llama Adventure. Its
candy-color interface contributes greatly to this, especially when you
consider that for most of 2009, the Z-code games were hosted on JIG's
homebrew interface, which was pretty clunky; I believe they're using
Parchment now. LA also makes a real attempt to be newbie-friendly, with
in-game tutorial text to ease the player in. (I didn't get the multitude
of colors in the keyword interface, in fact they confused me, but I didn't
spend a whole lot of time trying.) All of these factors provide
familiarity to the casual games crowd, and ease the transition to a new
medium.
In short, Llama Adventure is a casual game that happens to have a textual
interface. Its "mainstream" success holds definite lessons for this
community, particularly in the ways we can catch and hold the attention of
a wider audience (largely by making the alien familiar). Indeed, the JIG
team's new one-room escape game comp seems to be an attempt to widen IF's
profile by associating it with a genre that casual gamers know well (but
not one of my favorites, unfortunately).
While Llama Adventure may be a plotless puzzlefest, but I think there are
many other types of games that could potentially reach a wider
audience--but they will need to grab folks early on, and pull them in. Not
all IF games will be casual favorites, of course, but there is potential
there for a wide swath of games, I would think.
On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:41:17 -0600, jeremy...@gmail.com
<jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't mean to say that Llama Adventure was sloppily done...[snip]
> In any case, it's clear some people are put off by my
> speculating on how it would have done in the IFComp.
> And, of course, it's true that I don't know.
Llama Adventure would not have done well in the IF comp.
--Erik
George Oliver
> Llama Adventure would not have done well in the IF comp.
Agreed.
Also, to say that JIG players are looking for amusing, not too taxing
games to poke at for a few minutes is a misunderstanding of how people
play 'casual' games.
Erik Temple
Agreed as well. JIG also does a lot to showcase more experimental games,
and their audience seems appreciative.
namekuseijin
> Here, namekuseijin <namekusei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > IFComp is only for die-hard if-specialists who've been into it for the
> > past 3 decades. JIG is for the modern, casual, attention-deficit
> > players who want to give a laugh over some silly flash games in-
> > between lunch.
>
> We'll find out when the JIG EscapeComp games are released, won't we?
hah, Jimmy Maher beat me to it. Should learn to read through before
replying... :P
Conrad
Right,but this is a feedforward loop. The reason that games like
Llama Adventure would do poorly in the IF Comp is that the kinds of
people who like those games don't follow the IF Comp. They don't
follow the IF Comp because Llama Adventure style games aren't
entered. And they aren't entered because they wouldn't do well...
Supposing the premises are correct there.
Conrad.
Ashen
Of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with having two separate
communities that look for different things in their IF. Llama
Adventure can validly be a good game but still validly do poorly in
the IF Comp due to a difference in taste. That's why having Jay Is
Games consist of a different kind of IF reader (or, more accurately in
the case of JIG, player) is a good thing. It means that one can pick
and choose which of the two communities one wishes to be a part of, or
to be a part of both.
namekuseijin
It's also good that the community who likes those sort of games don't
know what newsgroups is. :)
R. Alan Monroe
news:op.u6uy3...@libgl040.library.vanderbilt.edu:
Llama was a hit because it evoked nostalgia for _Portal_.
Alan