Textfyre Games
ChicagoDave
We now have two games out and sales to the hobbyist community have
been fairly dismal. I'm sure the bulk of this is that we created games
that are more accessible to non-IF players, specifically middle school
kids. This is not to say that the games are simple or dumbed down.
They are, from our perspective, very entertaining.
So far, we have been unable to market to the middle school market. I
fund Textfyre out of my own pocket and unfortunately, the economy has
been a drag on my personal finances, as is likely true for many of us.
The company is fine, but we need to get the word out as widely as
possible. Textfyre needs you to invest as a customer, blogger, social
networker, or in anyway that helps bring people to our website and
products. You're our cheerleading team. We need your help to spread
the word.
So I'm growing more sympathetic to the ideals of the hobbyist
community and would rather bend in order to have a wider distribution
of the products and hopefully, more feedback and interest. For a
limited time, I'm considering releasing the raw glulx file associated
with both games at the same price as the Standard Edition, which is
$9.95. Before I do this, I'd like to find out how many people would
purchase either Secret Letter or Shadow in the Cathedral in this form.
Please send an e-mail to sales at textfyre dot com if you're
interested in one or both games in Glulx format.
Thanks,
David C.
Ron Newcomb
Though I wouldn't use my blog for pure advocacy, I think I can do
something here and still make a point about the industry as a whole.
Gimme a week or so.
Alex Rosslyn
I've been busy lately, but I might be able to make a simple banner or
something in GIMP like the 'Spread Firefox!' buttons.
For future reference, said buttons:
Poster
<10bb4ac8-e0dc-4d22...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Alex Rosslyn <black....@gmail.com> wrote:
This is the way to go if you ask me. Set up a special page that people
who click on the buttons end up and offer them a few bucks off a package
deal or something. I too can contribute banners or buttons, of the
static variety.
I know other businesses issue PR releases which then become picked up by
search bots and thus add to your overall online presence.
You could also sponsor events -- like contributing a few games to the
Spring Thing entry, or gift cards or something, just to be able to say
"Contributed by Textfyre, Inc." You might even consider sponsoring
real-life events, especially ones that allow you to get your name on
banners or T-shirts. For instance, I know churches that sponsor
marathons. Being a good "corporate citizen" wherever you are works
wonders.
Oh one more thing -- if you put your URL in your sig, after a few months
or even just a year you'd be surprised how high you rank in the search
engines.
--
Poster
www.intaligo.com I6 libraries, doom metal, Building
sturmdrangif.wordpress.com Game development blog / IF commentary
Seasons: fall '09 -- One-man projects are prone to delays.
George Oliver
mainstream or indie games markets? I understand the focus is YA and
education, but why not build a little buzz?
From a little searching it seems like Textfyre was reviewed/
highlighted favorably at numerous sites (GameSetWatch, TIGSource,
Grand Text Auto, etcetera), but I don't really see any mention of this
on the Textfyre website, or any attempt to build this buzz
really...anyone have thoughts on this?
ChicagoDave
The only reviews I know of are from a couple of hobbyists and
AdventureClassicGaming. We've been mentioned on other sites, but those
are very old.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
ChicagoDave
> In article
> <10bb4ac8-e0dc-4d22-8e32-592146730...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Interesting idea. I think I like it. So if you'd like to get the glulx
files for Shadow (available now) or Secret Letter 2.0 (available in a
few days), write a blog entry about Textfyre, put up a button, or
promise a review. Show me proof of said cheerleading by sending me an
e-mail to the aforementioned address and I will send you a link to
purchase the glulx files at $9.95 per.
If you're an existing customer, you still need to do some cheerleading
to get the glulx game. If you already have (you know who you are),
send me an e-mail and I'll send the package directly to you.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
George Oliver
> The only reviews I know of are from a couple of hobbyists and
> AdventureClassicGaming. We've been mentioned on other sites, but those
> are very old.
Has Textfyre decided not to pursue coverage on these sites then, or
participation on those sites in general? Did Textfyre decide not to
submit to the IGF for example?
Notwithstanding that there's only so much time that a small company
has to market itself, what I'm interested in is what efforts are being
made in this direction.
Ben Cressey
> e-mail to the aforementioned address and I will send you a link to
> purchase the glulx files at $9.95 per.
That strikes me as quite a lot of effort to go through just to
purchase a copy of Textfyre's games in a certain format. I like the
price point and I'm intrigued by the Shadow game, but I'd honestly
prefer a more straightforward way to buy it.
Sympodius
I'd quite like to buy the games again in glulx format, but I don't
want to feel pressured to write a review or press blurb because I'd
worry about being honest. I'd really rather just give you more money.
Peter Pears
bit of a pain in the behind (I recall I was the first person to bring
up the question of the pricetag, which took awhile to be settled), but
honestly, I feel perfectly entitled to do so, because I'm a paying
costumer and fully intend to keep on buying your games. So I'll keep
on speaking my mind.
I'm glad to finally see you think about releasing a more standard
format. But that cheerleading thing? You want people to promote the
game for you - to play and then promote it, probably, since you aren't
asking people to promote what they know nothing about, as that would
be rather dishonest and you ain't dishonest ;) - so they can then get
the game thet have presumably already played in a format which is
standard and which everyone feels they should have had access to in
the first place.
Furthermore, you put us in a difficult position. You'll either get
people swamping other places with cheerleading, to the point where you
might be regarded as a second Sherman - overhype, overhype, overhype -
through no fault of your own... or you'll put people off, who'll
rightly say "He has, or should have, people to deal with marketing. If
I want to write a good review, I'll do so. In my own time. Because I
want to. Not because someone's waving a carrot over my head."
Take me, for instance. I like to review - when I have something to
say. I have e-mailed my early thoughts about Toresal to you, if you
recall, but I wouldn't write a review - so much has already been said,
I can add nothing more. Is this "wrong" of me? Wrong enough that I
won't have access to a format I should have had access from the
beginning, at least?
Again - I feel perfectly entitled to speak my mind at these times,
because I fully intend to keep buying your games. I want your company
to succeed.
Also, while I'm at it - I can't register at your site, a bunch of
errors come up, and I forgot the password for your forum - and can't
reset it, I never get the e-mail I'm supposed to get.
ChicagoDave
This isn't a permanent plan. I'm trying to get help with marketing and
in exchange I'm offering the community a lower price point and the raw
glulx file. I don't expect a huge marketing effort by anyone...really
anything would do. Five minutes of your time writing a blog entry
about Textfyre with links is hardly a huge effort. You don't even have
to say anything nice, just the facts.
And in a few weeks the offer will be withdrawn. I'm working on a
native Mac OS X Standard terp along with an iPhone app. Those will be
available in a few months.
If you feel manipulated, trust me, I feel the same way when I see an
add for Oreo Cookies. But I still buy them.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
ChicagoDave
> I'm glad to finally see you think about releasing a more standard
> format. But that cheerleading thing? You want people to promote the
> game for you - to play and then promote it, probably, since you aren't
> asking people to promote what they know nothing about, as that would
> be rather dishonest and you ain't dishonest ;) - so they can then get
> the game thet have presumably already played in a format which is
> standard and which everyone feels they should have had access to in
> the first place.
Trust me, there are very few people that want a Textfyre game here. My
guestimate percentages are 95% don't care at all, 2% want a raw Glulx
file for free, 1% might pay $5, 1% will waffle, and 1% will just buy
the damn thing. So your argument about "everyone" is way off. A
_couple of people_ want the raw glulx file, not _everyone_.
In any case Peter, you have done plenty to help out, so I'll send the
Shadow package. Send an e-mail!
Thanks,
David C.
www.textfyre.com
James Jolley
> I know I keep saying these things, and some times I worry I may be a
> bit of a pain in the behind (I recall I was the first person to bring
> up the question of the pricetag, which took awhile to be settled), but
> honestly, I feel perfectly entitled to do so, because I'm a paying
> costumer and fully intend to keep on buying your games. So I'll keep
> on speaking my mind.
As someone who isn't a customer myself, I just want to tadd that I
agree with much that's been written here by Peter, even as an
interested outsider. More below:
>
> I'm glad to finally see you think about releasing a more standard
> format. But that cheerleading thing? You want people to promote the
> game for you - to play and then promote it, probably, since you aren't
> asking people to promote what they know nothing about, as that would
> be rather dishonest and you ain't dishonest ;) - so they can then get
> the game thet have presumably already played in a format which is
> standard and which everyone feels they should have had access to in
> the first place.
Seems rather cheeky to me also. Perhaps the Glulx versions should be
under a different teer when purchasing. say Delux, Glulx, standard.
>
> Furthermore, you put us in a difficult position. You'll either get
> people swamping other places with cheerleading, to the point where you
> might be regarded as a second Sherman - overhype, overhype, overhype -
> through no fault of your own... or you'll put people off, who'll
> rightly say "He has, or should have, people to deal with marketing.
I agree here. It seems that Howard's issues only got worse when he
started spamming this and other places.
> If
> I want to write a good review, I'll do so. In my own time. Because I
> want to. Not because someone's waving a carrot over my head."
True enough, it's not worth trying to alienate your audience.
>
> Take me, for instance. I like to review - when I have something to
> say. I have e-mailed my early thoughts about Toresal to you, if you
> recall, but I wouldn't write a review - so much has already been said,
> I can add nothing more. Is this "wrong" of me? Wrong enough that I
> won't have access to a format I should have had access from the
> beginning, at least?
I see what you mean. See the first comment for my own suggestion. Seems
to me that this is beginning to come over a money racket but perhaps
i'll keep further thoughts to myself.
>
> Again - I feel perfectly entitled to speak my mind at these times,
> because I fully intend to keep buying your games. I want your company
> to succeed.
As do I, but I don't want Textfire becoming the next spambot either.
>
> Also, while I'm at it - I can't register at your site, a bunch of
> errors come up, and I forgot the password for your forum - and can't
> reset it, I never get the e-mail I'm supposed to get.
You can't beat proper, tested design. People may think that if the
site's not tested, are the games?
Best
-James-
James Jolley
>
> Trust me, there are very few people that want a Textfyre game here. My
> guestimate percentages are 95% don't care at all, 2% want a raw Glulx
> file for free, 1% might pay $5, 1% will waffle, and 1% will just buy
> the damn thing. So your argument about "everyone" is way off. A
> _couple of people_ want the raw glulx file, not _everyone_.
open standards. It's not our fault you've decided not to go with the
common IF system formats. Either way, to suggest that we're not
interested in buying the games after all of the discussions that have
gone on is rather unfair.
>
> In any case Peter, you have done plenty to help out, so I'll send the
> Shadow package. Send an e-mail!
>
> Thanks,
>
> David C.
> www.textfyre.com
It seems then if you do enough, you get back? That's not how things go.
Perhaps then you should be giving those who paid for the game the free
glulxe packages.
Best
-James-
ChicagoDave
I'm hardly spamming Usenet. I'm monkeying with my business model,
that's all. Textfyre is a work in progress in many ways, including the
delivery mechanisms, the marketing, and the business model. I could go
the Howard Sherman route, ignore the community, and spend money on
Google Ads, but that's not the direction I want to go. I'm just trying
to find a way to have the community work with me in a win-win manner.
I'm not done tweaking and poking either. I know some people don't like
this, but this is the nature of a start-up.
> Also, while I'm at it - I can't register at your site, a bunch of
> errors come up, and I forgot the password for your forum - and can't
> reset it, I never get the e-mail I'm supposed to get.
Yeah, I'm aware of the registration issue. I've been working on the
Classroom Edition and a Customer Downloads page and, well, it's just
not ready yet. I'll probably remove the login in the short term until
these things are completed.
> Current Customers
If a current customer wants a glulx copy, they still need to ask for
it. If they don't ask, then I assume they don't need it. I'm only
offering this to the community and to those that truly are interested
in the games.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Ben Cressey
> it. If they don't ask, then I assume they don't need it. I'm only
> offering this to the community and to those that truly are interested
> in the games.
So current customers get the Glulx file for asking, and new ones only
get it after pounding the Textfyre drum? If your goal is to get new
customers, I fail to see how creating an artificial divide like this
makes sense.
For my part, I am somewhat interested in playing the game and somewhat
interested in making sure it runs under Gargoyle on Windows and
Linux. I'm aware that such activities don't align with your business
plan, in that I'm not a middle school and I'm not using Silverlight,
but I really don't see the financial downside. Surely my $10 is as
good as anyone else's.
I may be somewhat unorthodox but I actually like paying money for
decent games, for the same reason I like to buy books from my favorite
authors. Cash keeps the content flowing. I bought Treasures of a
Slaver's Kingdom, another game which wasn't meant for the IF
community, and which is unadulterated, unadultery-free awesome. In
exchange for my money, I received a story file that runs on
everything, and which will almost certainly run on my son's computer,
when he is old enough to play such a depraved, morally repugnant game.
Maybe you could set up a TextfyreCharity.org page with a giant donate
button? Contributors would get the Glulx file and the satisfaction of
knowing their money was going to support something or other. You
could link up with Child's Play and perhaps get some positive, kid-
friendly publicity in the process.
Alex Rosslyn
> In article
> <10bb4ac8-e0dc-4d22-8e32-592146730...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Something like this:
http://i36.tinypic.com/110hr9w.jpg
Gravel
recently, and am only vaguely familiar with the history here.
I'm not adverse to purchasing games, especially from small companies.
Nor am I adverse to offering reviewers perks, although I don't quite
understand why the glulx version wouldn't be available to anyone.
I've gotta say, though, the typos on the website put me off pretty
fast. I expect even my free games to have basic grammar down, and
certainly my paid ones - if your website has repeated spelling/grammar
issues, why would I expect the game to be of higher caliber?
I suspect that such things seem negligibly small when you're running a
small business, but there's a *lot* of games out there, and one of the
ways I winnow down what I play is looking for a nominal level of
craftsmanship - which on a text game site includes taking care with
the text.
I'm involved in work with ESL students, and on that basis, too, I'd be
concerned about making sure the grammar was correct.
That, and the weird little Oreo reference, aside, I like the Child's
Play idea very much. Other events, too, might be worth checking in on
- perhaps vidcasting or a blog, or sponsoring Local Geek connections
(groups that refurbish computers, often for schools and not-for-
profits), or anything else you can think of. Also, maybe considering
offering up review copies to some people. Maybe you have, but I
haven't seen any. Jayisgames is a site I watch, and they review both
commercial and text games. Emily Short's reviews are very strong, and
I'd be very likely to pick up a game on her recommendation. There's
others, of course, but those are the ones that leap out at me.
ChicagoDave
> I've gotta say, though, the typos on the website put me off pretty
> fast.
What! Where? I wrote the text myself and thought the text was clean.
In any case, you wouldn't want to compare the website (my prose) to
the games (Mike Gentry and Jon Ingold's prose). There's no doubt I
could use a good copy writer, but no one is really in that spot at the
moment.
> Also, maybe considering
> offering up review copies to some people. Maybe you have, but I
> haven't seen any. Jayisgames is a site I watch, and they review both
> commercial and text games. Emily Short's reviews are very strong, and
> I'd be very likely to pick up a game on her recommendation. There's
> others, of course, but those are the ones that leap out at me.
I have offered and am offering any popular blogger or website free
review copies. See http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Jim Aikin
> I've gotta say, though, the typos on the website put me off pretty
> fast. I expect even my free games to have basic grammar down, and
> certainly my paid ones - if your website has repeated spelling/grammar
> issues, why would I expect the game to be of higher caliber?
You got me curious, so I went over to Textfyre and had a look. Are you
sure you're not Jacek Pudlo wearing a different hat and a fake mustache?
Other than a couple of inadvisable semicolons and a tendency toward
using long words where short ones would communicate more clearly, I
didn't spot anything I'd class as objectionable. I would not be
embarrassed to steer a middle-school teacher to this site.
No, wait -- there's a comma-splice. The opener about Jack Toresal on the
home page has two sentences that ought to be separate but are joined by
a comma.
This is wordy: "a user experience that immerses the game player right
inside the story." Better would be "...the game player in the story."
This is an error: "We can offer a version of each game that requires
each student to login." A verb particle ("in") can't be tacked onto the
verb ("log") that way. Correct would be "to log in."
Also, "fourteen year old" ought to be hyphenated. That's clearly an error.
But that's about it for grammar issues, and I saw no typos or misspelled
words whatever. I didn't read _all_ the copy, but I had a look at the
home page and several other paragraphs. I don't see anything there that
I would worry might lead students astray.
Care to share some specifics? What did my tired old eyes miss, that you
found so deeply offensive?
--JA
Gravel
> found so deeply offensive?
>
> --JA
I'm not offended - I save that for special occasions. The ones I
noticed on my first pass through:
"Abbott" should be "abbot." Granted, that's not a huge spelling
issue, except that it's presumably a plot point, and something I'd
expect to be double-checked before release. (You don't accidentally
want to misprint the Pope as Poope, say.)
"Jack, he just wants to sit down and eat an apple." might be
acceptable if the rest of the blurb was written in a folksy manner,
but it's not, so I'm counting it as an error.
The semi-colon thing is something I find irritating ("From Grubber's
Market through Commerce Street, and onto Lord's Keep; Jack is faced
with numerous challenges." and "The first episode in the Klockwerk
Series; Shadow begins an adventure in a world of clocks, gears and
ornithopters." are the ones that leap out at me).
"We write stories that teach kids about honesty and bravery, as well
as just making them think outside of the box."
So yeah, not the worst collection of mistakes ever, but I was skimming
a relatively short quantity of text, and each of the sections I looked
at seemed to have some issues. I'd be lying if I said that I don't
respond negatively to such stuff, and I judge websites by the editing
job they've done, especially when they're trying to sell me something
written. I'm not saying I'd never buy a product from Textfyre because
OMG run-on sentence, but it's not a positive first mark, and I suspect
I'm not alone in noticing this sort of thing.
Jim Aikin
> "Abbott" should be "abbot." Granted, that's not a huge spelling
> issue, except that it's presumably a plot point, and something I'd
> expect to be double-checked before release.
Yep -- I missed that one. Good catch.
> "Jack, he just wants to sit down and eat an apple." might be
> acceptable if the rest of the blurb was written in a folksy manner,
> but it's not, so I'm counting it as an error.
I noticed that, but counted it as folksy. The reason being, the
grammatical form emphasizes the content of the sentence. I think it's a
case of good writing bending the rules a bit.
> I'd be lying if I said that I don't
> respond negatively to such stuff, and I judge websites by the editing
> job they've done, especially when they're trying to sell me something
> written. I'm not saying I'd never buy a product from Textfyre because
> OMG run-on sentence, but it's not a positive first mark, and I suspect
> I'm not alone in noticing this sort of thing.
Fair enough. I personally draw the line at "it's" for "its," but each of
us has his or her pet peeves. I'm cheerfully willing to accept "their"
as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender, for instance ("Each
student should get out their book"), but that totally freaks some people
out.
--JA
Dannii
version couldn't be the same file... even the publicly release FyreVM
I7 extension can do that! So many versions will surely just confuse
people, and that can't be good for marketing purposes!
On Nov 14, 9:29 am, Jim Aikin <midigur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Fair enough. I personally draw the line at "it's" for "its," but each of
> us has his or her pet peeves. I'm cheerfully willing to accept "their"
> as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender, for instance ("Each
> student should get out their book"), but that totally freaks some people
> out.
>
> --JA
Yeah, people stuck with pre-Shakespearean English!
Conrad
>
> As someone who isn't a customer myself, I just want to tadd that I
> agree with much that's been written here by Peter, even as an
> interested outsider. More below:
I'm assuming that Dave would disclose the entangled nature of the
cheerleading review, somehow, when he presents it. In marketing,
these things are called "testimonials" -- "I lost 30 pounds in 7
days!" -- and the FCC has recently altered its policy about them. The
new stricter rules have to do with the presumption of whether the
testimonial reflects what results the average customer can expect.
How you would map such "results" onto game-play is an open question;
giving customers breaks on prices for writing them is not, and I
believe must be disclosed by the advertising company.
> > Furthermore, you put us in a difficult position. You'll either get
> > people swamping other places with cheerleading, to the point where you
> > might be regarded as a second Sherman - overhype, overhype, overhype -
> > through no fault of your own... or you'll put people off, who'll
> > rightly say "He has, or should have, people to deal with marketing.
>
> I agree here. It seems that Howard's issues only got worse when he
> started spamming this and other places.
Who is this Howard / Sherman guy?
Conrad.
Jim Aikin
>
> Who is this Howard / Sherman guy?
google "howard sherman interactive fiction". That will take you to his
website, malinche.net.
Howard has written several text games, which he sells. He uses I6, I
believe. Howard is ... well, let's just say he's a character. He styles
himself the _only_ publisher of IF in the world, utterly ignoring folks
like Peter Nepstad, Dave Cornelson, and S. John Ross.
Since I've never purchased any of his games, I'm not in a position to
say whether they're any good or not. Out of curiosity, though, I
downloaded the demo version of "Greystone" and encountered this near the
beginning of the game. Note the misspelling and the run-on sentence in
the room description. Also the enterprising depth of the implementation.
(The reference to "patients" is because the action takes place in an
asylum.)
Your Bathroom
Just big enough to accomodate you while you're about your business,
doing any business in here would be difficult considering how small this
bathroom is. Count yourself extremely fortunate; most patients don't
have a private bathroom at all.
>x toilet
You do not see anything like that.
>x sink
You do not see anything like that.
>x tub
You do not see anything like that.
>x shower
You do not see anything like that.
>take towel
You cannot see any such thing.
>x mirror
You do not see anything like that.
It's not a demo that would inspire me to shell out $30 bucks. Maybe the
game gets better, though. Who knows?
--JA
Benjamin Caplan
> Yeah, people stuck with pre-Shakespearean English!
Not even. The singular "they" is traditional; the "rule" that it's
invalid was invented in the 18th century by Latin fans who thought the
existing rules of English were "incorrect" because they behaved like the
rules of English rather than like the rules of Latin.
Jim Aikin
I wasn't aware of the English tradition, but I remember vaguely from
college that in German, "sie" (literal translation: "they") is the
polite form of "du" ("you"). So when the waiter says, in German, "What
would you like to order?", if he's being polite, which of course he
would always be, what he's literally going to say is, "What would _they_
like to order?"
What this says to me is that there is a tradition of using the plural
form of pronouns to get around awkward social problems. And in the
modern world, third-person singular gendered pronouns have become
awkward, for obvious reasons.
Likewise, in English, "ye/you" was originally plural and also the polite
form of the second-person singular. The familiar form was, of course,
"thou/thee". The plural was used when politeness was required.
BTW, English is now acquiring a new polite form of the second-person
singular pronoun -- "yourself". Go to a restaurant and watch the
waitress go around the table, taking orders. She will come to you and
say, "And for yourself?" She's doing it for a precise psycho-social
reason, namely that "And for you?" would feel too familiar. This is how
language evolves in response to social needs.
So "they" for "he or she" would not be weird at all, even if it were a
neologism.
--JA
Poster
<d4ae4071-a8a6-4d24...@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
George Oliver <georgeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with the content that George wrote, but let me put a different
spin on it. I encourage Textfyre to do these things. I think there's a
few of us here that wouldn't mind being part of the Textfrye "street
team" (to borrow a term from the music industry) and as such we could do
those things and other marketing-ish stuff within reason (banner
designs, and so forth).
Poster
<d78e8961-adb8-4b1a...@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Gravel <kat....@gmail.com> wrote:
> So I'm coming in from the outside here - I just started writing IF
> recently, and am only vaguely familiar with the history here.
> I'm not adverse to purchasing games, especially from small companies.
> Nor am I adverse to offering reviewers perks, although I don't quite
> understand why the glulx version wouldn't be available to anyone.
> I've gotta say, though, the typos on the website put me off pretty
> fast. I expect even my free games to have basic grammar down, and
> certainly my paid ones - if your website has repeated spelling/grammar
> issues, why would I expect the game to be of higher caliber?
> I suspect that such things seem negligibly small when you're running a
> small business, but there's a *lot* of games out there, and one of the
> ways I winnow down what I play is looking for a nominal level of
> craftsmanship - which on a text game site includes taking care with
> the text.
Ouch. Unfortunately, this is true. It's like finding dings on the new
Corvette you drive off the lot.
[snip]
>
> That, and the weird little Oreo reference, aside, I like the Child's
> Play idea very much. Other events, too, might be worth checking in on
> - perhaps vidcasting or a blog, or sponsoring Local Geek connections
> (groups that refurbish computers, often for schools and not-for-
> profits), or anything else you can think of. Also, maybe considering
> offering up review copies to some people. Maybe you have, but I
> haven't seen any. Jayisgames is a site I watch, and they review both
> commercial and text games. Emily Short's reviews are very strong, and
> I'd be very likely to pick up a game on her recommendation. There's
> others, of course, but those are the ones that leap out at me.
Excellent ideas. I wish I'd thought of some of 'em myself!
Poster
<cf0da849-de3f-4679...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>,
Gravel <kat....@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming at this from a technical writing perspective, I've fought many
battles in making the case for flawless grammar. What I've concluded is
this: most people don't consciously notice it, but it still informs
their judgment about a product or a site. Unless you're in a situation
where people have to use your product, you can't get away with any
distractions and grammar/typos are one of them.
Urbatain
game to playthisthing and jayisgames. Send them a deluxe version, that
places likes in a while a good IF, but if they a have a beatiful
package to review, the better for you. Send another to Classic
Adventure Games. Try to put your games on direct2drive and steam, no
matter there are harcore games publishers, just try it!!! try and
negotiate with them, maybe it could be a conveniente relationship
although their "market target" it is not the same as yours. Remember
that in that places people buy and play things like The Path, so
gamers that like to play indie are already glad to play non-hardcore
stuff.
You should just send material for this sites, so they could cover your
game.
Read this article:
http://offworld.com/2009/03/indie-games-summit-2d-boypolyt.html
And check this:
http://www.gaminghorror.net/indie-game-developer-resources/
And don't forget to make contact with this two sites:
http://www.indiegames.com/blog/
And, this is from the indie side of reality, have you dig in the
literary side? I'm looking for URLs, I'll come later.
Maybe I could try to ask some indie sites if they want an interview or
material or something... I will see...
PD: If we are going to help you to promote, maybe it could be a good
idea to make a section in the textfyre official forum for spread the
word, just so people could organize and see what kind of places and
marketing things have been already done, and what not. Please keep us
informed of what places you have already send advertisment and
material for promote the games.
PD2: sorry my bad english. It is too late here.
Urbatain.
Ruber Eaglenest
Ok, why not to contact this?
http://hyperex.co.uk/index.php
A place about hyperliterature, and they spend their time reviewing The
Path, a graphic game. Why there are no any lines about Jack or
Cathedral?
Dave, just go and email them, please.
You should try to market your product in these fronts:
-indie gamers.
-younger readers.
-adult readers.
-electronic literature readers.
Start filling that with URLs and contacts and don't return here until
you have exhausted all those paths.
Ruber aka Urbatain.
Ruber Eaglenest
"Purpose
The purpose of The Hyperliterature Exchange is to encourage the sale
of hyperliterature - electronic literature, cyberliterature,
hypertext, new media literature, nonlinear literature, digital poetry,
Flash poetry, etc. etc. - particularly work self-published by its
authors or brought out by small independent publishers, writers'
cooperatives etc.
As a working definition, hyperliterature is literature which makes use
of the computerised/digital medium in such a way that it cannot be
reproduced in print - for example it employs animations, sound-
effects, nonlinear structure, interactivity, or a combination of
these. However, I am also prepared to list print-based works of
criticism about the genre, and any other material which seems closely-
related or relevant.
All works on the list must be for sale.
Top
Listings Policy
As proprietor of The Hyperliterature Exchange, I reserve the right to
refuse to list any work without giving a reason. My general policy,
however, will be to list all work submitted to me provided that:
* it is not pornographic
* it is not an incitement to violence
* it is not racist, sexist or otherwise gratuitously offensive to
any subsection of the human race
* it is not libellous
* it is not unsaleably amateurish in my opinion (my standards are
not deterringly strict in this respect)"
Ey! I think your products fit quite well that clasification.
Ruber-Urba.
Ruber Eaglenest
Press people are kind people. They are dying to hear about your games.
Indeed, they need to know about your games so they could make their
work! So... feed them!!!
Ruber Eaglenest.
Jeff Nyman
they're worth. (Fair warning: This is all probably only of peripheral
interest to anyone here.)
I can't tell you how to "market" so much but I have done a lot with
schools in terms of textual IF. Some ventures have been successful,
some not. In my case, of course, I'm not trying to sell a particular
game or set of games, but just to get the ideas accepted and have
people interested enough to consider allowing children of various ages
to participate in a different kind of story-telling experience. (That,
of course, could translate into sales if such games existed.)
What I can speak to, though, is the approach I took. This approach was
predicated upon two things: (1) The current community would be little
help to me. (2) Textual IF is not very well known or understood among
the modern audiences that need to be convinced.
My point (1) is not meant to be as combative as it probably sounds,
but I just think that for the most part the community that has grown
up around textual IF has become mired in its traditions, such that it
evolves wonderfully within its own venue -- but not in a way that
translates to audiences outside of that venue. Regarding point (2),
what did help me was simply getting an ear where and when I could and
first finding out what the modern audience for textual IF might look
like. What I ended up realizing was that to lay the foundations, I
needed to focus on the people who would write it first. Okay, so that
would be the current community, right? Well, not so much, no. What I
needed were people who looked at textual IF as being viable for a
broader audience by seeing how techniques of screenplay, short story
and novel writing could be translated into a different and challenging
venue.
I went to some fan-fic fora, for example, and I talked a little about
textual IF. ("Hey, what if you could control that vampire?") Since
zombies seem to be so big now in the self-publishing world, I posted
to a few places saying "Hey, what about an interactive fiction version
of zombie apocalypse?" On LinkedIn I joined some author groups and
brought up the idea of textual IF. I went to some teacher/teaching
groups and posted ideas there. ("Kids interested in Spider-Man, huh?
What if there was a story where they could control Spider-Man but
still get the benefit of a reading experience?") Essentially I talked
with people I knew or various people who knew people and saw where I
could get some traction.
One example was contacting the School Library Journal. Another was
using NaNoWriMo as a platform to get some people at least talking
about the ideas of textual IF. Yet another was looking at authors who
are willing to endorse fan-related elements. J.K. Rowling, whom you
can contact care of Scholastic Books, is very open to the idea of fan-
created material. Marvel Comics -- from my direct experience -- has
expressed little reluctance to allowing their characters to be used in
various works, although obviously if you have a product you get paid
for, they want a cut. (I should note DC is much more of a closed shop
than Marvel.) But the point is that you can start using established
brands or known figures and craft games around those to get people
interested. A known commodity can work wonders. As another example,
ever since the release of the prequels, Lucasfilm has greatly relaxed
its restrictions on how their universe can be used. (Again, if
royalites are part of the thing, they want their share. Also in most
cases you are restricted from using "main line" characters except in
peripheral ways, but you can still set a story in the "Star Wars"
universe.) Paramount is open to allowing "alternate reality" versions
of their "Star Trek" characters in certain venues. Chooseco is
currently re-releasing many of the old "Choose Your Own Adventure
Books." (Hint: R.A. Montgomery might be interested in some of these in
computer form.)
I guess the thing to note is that I did all this communicating and
promoting with little to no expenditure of money. (In fact, none
really save that which my ISP and my phone provider normally charge
me.)
I like what you have here: https://www.textfyre.com/Teachers.aspx
But all of that is predicated upon children playing games or stories;
whereas I've found the emphasis is better placed -- at least with
teachers -- on first showing them how children could *write* stories
in a different way. Then, when that idea started to take root,
teachers were more interested in learning what's out there and seeing
examples. Children just being offered a new type of game, even when
wrapped in the guise of a story, was not enough. There had to be a
focus on what textual IF is and why it can be an interesting medium
for creativity going in and coming out.
Same with what you have here: https://www.textfyre.com/Parents.aspx
I've found my best success when I could talk to parents about how it's
not just "playing a game" but it's telling a story as well. There's
definitely ways to sell this in various contexts. For example, I went
to a "Young Programmers" forum that was dedicated to getting children
thinking about programming and getting them introduced.
(Interestingly, the language chosen was often Python, which I suppose
is similar in many ways to Inform 7.) I found that this was a good
venue to "advertise" as well. ("Hey, not only can you learn to program
but you can have fun while doing it!")
I realize a lot of what I'm saying is peripheral to your interests in
that your primary goal is to sell your product. But, in a way, that's
what I was doing as well: I was selling people on the idea, getting
them interested enough in the concept to try it out. If I just had
people create blog posts for me, it wouldn't have done a thing. But
when showing people why these games might be interesting -- and why
the stories they tell might be engaging -- I had much better success.
I think if you had a community dedicated more to that proposition, you
would have better luck with a community promoting what you have to
sell.
I kind of meandered a bit here and there but I just wanted to throw
out some thoughts. The overall point was that I my personal
realization was that any putative "community" of textual IF has done
little to promote the concept effectively, both in complement to and
contrast to other storytelling and game-playing media. So before I
could see textual IF becoming some sort of viable market reality
again, a business model would only come after enough people saw the
potential to want to create it in the first place. (The "Hey, I wanna
be a writer, too!" thing -- but applied to textual IF.) If I could
capture some of the massive readership out there that likes games but
that also like to read currently popular fiction, such as about
vampires (which are really hot these days), I could start to broaden
the audience. Because if I could capture the authors that people were
reading, I could the capture the readers. As you can tell, this is not
a business plan that would solely market to middle school and I think
that would be a losing proposition until the concepts are more
established.
- Jeff
ChicagoDave
> Hi everyone,
Plans were meant to change.
Starting tomorrow, the Glulx version of Shadow in the Cathedral will
be available as a regular product purchase for $9.95. It will be
called the Hobbyist Edition and will contain only the game file, the
EULA, a hints web page, and the Intro doc. We will point you to all
the right places to find a Glulx interpreter, but we're obviously not
going to support any UI issues if you purchase this version.
The Deluxe and Standard Editions will eventually contain the raw Glulx
file as well. Anyone purchasing these versions are entitled to the raw
Glulx file.
I've also added a Silverlight demo version of Shadow at
https://www.textfyre.com/ShadowDemo.aspx. You can right-click on the
application and install it locally. This is a new feature of
Silverlight 3 and it's great.
Secret Letter 2.0 is still in production and will lag by a few days to
a week.
I'd also like to note, if you haven't seen them, reviews of Shadow at
ifdb and playthisthing.com by Emily Short. And I quote "Shadow in the
Cathedral is one of the best Interactive Fiction games of the year."
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Damien Neil
> Plans were meant to change.
May I suggest some changes to your website?
You've just released a new game. It's got a couple of great reviews.
And there's *almost no mention* of it on the front page. There's a tiny
note buried in the "Now Available" section.
Contrast: Telltale Games at http://www.telltalegames.com/ -- the first
thing you see is a gigantic announcement of their latest release.
Someone who is visiting your site is a potential customer. Hook them!
Grab them! Tell them what you've got to offer! Right now, your front
page is full of bland statements about the company. It makes me think
you're talking to investors, not customers.
Oh, and that "Try our interface in your browser online!" link at the
bottom? It's almost invisible. Also: "Try our interface" is possibly
the blandest hook I've ever heard. I want to try your *games*, not your
interface. The link does go to a demo of _Jack_, but you'd never know
that from the way it's worded.
On to the games page, which does at least contain _Cathedral_.
Unfortunately, it contains it at the *bottom* of the page. The
latest-and-greatest release is getting second place ranking, and isn't
even visible on my screen without scrolling down.
"Standard" and "Deluxe" versions are on offer. There is no mention of
what the difference is.
Personally, I'd sell just one version. Have different packaging schemes
if you must, but just have a single item to purchase with multiple
download options. Every time you give the customer an option to make a
choice, you're giving them an option to bail out of the transaction.
*Especially* in a case like this, where it isn't obvious which choice to
make. If I buy the Deluxe version, am I overpaying? If I buy the
Standard version, am I missing out? I don't know!
So, yes: If I were in your shoes, I'd be selling just one version, for
$19.95. $10 is definitely too cheap. Indeed, it makes you *look*
cheap. If I'm interested in what you've got, I'll pay $20 for it. And
if what you've got isn't worth $20...well, I've got a backlog of games
to get to.
Another problem with the games page: Just like the main page, there's a
lack of focus. The demo links are understated, and occupy less space
than the lengthy system requirements. Who cares about the system
requirements?
Actually, I do, now that I've read them. "On Windows, 32MB RAM is
required." You only run on XP and higher. Can you even *boot* XP with
32MB of RAM? (I just checked: Microsoft says XP requires 64MB RAM, and
recommends 128MB.) "Microsoft Silverlight 2 or 3 is required and is a
part of the installation process." Does anyone really care about this
stuff? Hide it off in some dusty corner of the site if you must but for
the love of all that's holy in marketing, don't distract customers with
it while they're deciding whether to hit that "buy" button or not.
Onward: There are "Parents" and "Teachers" pages. These pages say one
thing to me: "DON'T BUY GAMES HERE."
I realize that this may not be what you intended.
The problem is that you've got two whole top-level pages here dedicated
to selling your games to people *who aren't going to play them*. When I
see this much space devoted to talking to parents and teachers (and not
to me, the customer!), I get a definite sense that they're the market
and not I.
I'm pretty certain I felt the same way back when I was 10 and in your
target demographic, by the way.
Now, I realize that you've got limited resources. You aren't going to
have a slick, professionally-produced website like Telltale does. So
here's an example of another indie game developer's site:
To be blunt, Cryptic Comet's website hurts my eyes. It's pretty
horrible all around. And yet...
Their games are prominently mentioned on the front page. The front page
has direct links to demos, as well as "buy now" links. The pages for
the games try to explain what they are and why you want to buy them.
The developer's blog talks about how darned nifty his games are.
Cryptic Comet's site makes me think: This is some guy in his garage,
working away on a labor of love. His games probably aren't very
polished, but there might be something there.
One last comment: You want people to go out and talk about how awesome
Textfyre's games are? Make awesome games.
- Damien
Autymn D. C.
> On Nov 14, 9:29 am, Jim Aikin <midigur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Fair enough. I personally draw the line at "it's" for "its," but each of
> > us has his or her pet peeves. I'm cheerfully willing to accept "their"
> > as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender, for instance ("Each
> > student should get out their book"), but that totally freaks some people
> > out.
Did I not already say, "a person -> one; the person -> who"?
Therefore, "each should do whose" yet "every should do one's". No
more His or Her, His/Her, Hir, Xer, or Their giibberish from
wanEnglish illiterates.
> Yeah, people stuck with pre-Shakespearean English!
Yet "pre-" isn't English, and English was long dead:
http://google.com/groups?q=Einglish+Dohiwtsch.
On Nov 13, 10:28 pm, Jim Aikin <midigur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Benjamin Caplan wrote:
> > Dannii wrote:
> >> Yeah, people stuck with pre-Shakespearean English!
>
> > Not even. The singular "they" is traditional; the "rule" that it's
> > invalid was invented in the 18th century by Latin fans who thought the
> > existing rules of English were "incorrect" because they behaved like the
> > rules of English rather than like the rules of Latin.
Miht makes not wriht. Traditions are bullshit liges and shams. If
"they" was singular, what was the plural? None, as it wasn't
singular, you cretin. E. They < N. Their, plural of Sa, our Se/The,
whose plural was Tha, in the early paradigm He/Se/Thes for this/that/
such: http://etymonline.com/index.php?search=the. Feminine and
obliqve cases switchd hands.
> I wasn't aware of the English tradition, but I remember vaguely from
> college that in German, "sie" (literal translation: "they") is the
> polite form of "du" ("you"). So when the waiter says, in German, "What
> would you like to order?", if he's being polite, which of course he
> would always be, what he's literally going to say is, "What would _they_
> like to order?"
Sie is literally the third-person whose plural and feminine/obliqve
endings seem to hav melded. One would expect sien, whennes ihnen.*
> What this says to me is that there is a tradition of using the plural
> form of pronouns to get around awkward social problems. And in the
> modern world, third-person singular gendered pronouns have become
> awkward, for obvious reasons.
No, it means third-person is kinder than next-person; instead of "you"
they call you a "that" (as obliqve, not neuter) or a "the". The ≠
They. I wouldn't mind The as a common-gender pronoun again instead of
One, where Who above is epicoin: http://google.com/search?q=%22five+persons+of+grammar%22.
About my old chart, switch -'s and -r, and hr- should be har-.
> Likewise, in English, "ye/you" was originally plural and also the polite
> form of the second-person singular. The familiar form was, of course,
> "thou/thee". The plural was used when politeness was required.
>
> BTW, English is now acquiring a new polite form of the second-person
> singular pronoun -- "yourself". Go to a restaurant and watch the
> waitress go around the table, taking orders. She will come to you and
> say, "And for yourself?" She's doing it for a precise psycho-social
> reason, namely that "And for you?" would feel too familiar. This is how
> language evolves in response to social needs.
third-person again, nothing new
> So "they" for "he or she" would not be weird at all, even if it were a
> neologism.
It would not be fateful? Good.
*What Would Google Say?
Translation:
I, me, to me, mine, my,: Ich, ich, mich, mein, meine,
we, us, to us, ours, our,: wir uns, um uns, unsere, unser,
thou, thee, to thee, thine, thy,: du, dich, um dich, deine, dein,
you, ye, to you or to ye, yours, your,: euch, ihr, an Sie oder ihr,
Ihr, Ihre,
he, him, to him, his, his,: er ihm, um ihn, seine, sein,
they, them, to them, theirs, their,: sie sie, um sie, ihre, ihre,
she, her, to her, hers, her,: ̌sie, ihr, zu ihr, ihr, sie,
any, any, to any, any's, any's,: alle, alle, alle, die bei jeder
anderen ist,
it, it, to it, its, its,: es, sie, es, sein, ihr,
some, some, to some, some's, some's: einige, manche bis zu einem
gewissen an, some, some's
one, one, to one, one's, one's,: ein, ein, um eins, eins ist, ist ein,
who, whom, to whom, whose, whose,: wer, wen, wem, dessen, deren,
I; me; to me; mine; my;: Ich, mich für mich, mein, meine;
we; us; to us; ours; our;: wir, uns, zu uns, uns, unser;
thou; thee; to thee; thine; thy;: du, dir, zu dir, dein, dein;
you; ye; to you or to ye; yours; your;: Sie, ihr, euch oder ihr;
verkaufen; Ihre;
he; him; to him; his; his;: er, ihn, um ihn, seine, sein;
they; them; to them; theirs; their;: sie, sie, zu ihnen, ihnen, ihr;
she; her; to her; hers; her;: sie, ihr, zu ihr, ihre, ihr;
any; any; to any; any's; any's;: jeder, jede, jede, jede ist, jede
ist;
it; it; to it; its; its;: er, sie, es, sein, ihr;
some; some; to some; some's; some's;: einige, manche, einige,
manche's, einige ist;
one; one; to one; one's; one's;: ein; ein, zu einem, man's, man's;
who; whom; to whom; whose; whose;: who; wem zu wem dessen, deren;
I. me. to me. mine. my.: I. mich. zu mir. mein. mein
we. us. to us. ours. our.: wir. uns. zu uns. unsrige. unser.
thou. thee. to thee. thine. thy.: Du. dir. zu dir. dein. thy.
you. ye. to you or to ye. yours. your.: Sie. ye. Sie oder ihr zu.
verkaufen. dein.
he. him. to him. his. his.: er. ihn. zu ihm. sein. sein.
they. them. to them. theirs. their.: sie. sie. zu ihnen. ihrigen. ihr.
she. her. to her. hers. her.: sie. ihr. zu ihr. ihrigen. ihr.
any. any. to any. any's. any's.: beliebig. beliebig. auf alle. jeder
ist. jeder ist.
it. it. to it. its. its.: es. es. zu. its. its.
some. some. to some. some's. some's.: einige. einige. zu einigen.
einigen Freunden. einigen Freunden.
one. one. to one. one's. one's.: eins. eins. zu eins. one's. one's.
who. whom. to whom. whose. whose.: wer. wem. an wen. deren. deren.
Dictionary:
I me to_me mine my: ich mich|mir|ich mir mein|meine meiner|meine|
meines|meins
we us to_us ours our: wir uns|mich|mir|wir uns unser|unsere unsere|
unserer|unseres
thou thee to_thee thine thy: du dich|euch dir der_deine|die_deine|
das_deine dein|deine|euer|eure
you ye to_you/to_ye yours your: du|dich|dir|ihr|euch|Sie|ihnen|einer|
eine|man Ihr|euch dir|ihnen|euch/zu_ihr deiner|deine|deins|deines|
euer|eure|eures|eurer|Ihrer|Ihres|Ihre dein|deine|euer|eure|ihr|ihre|
sein|das|die
he him to_him his his: er|der|derjenige|wer ihn|ihm|sich|er|den ihm|
dem sein|seine dessen|seiner|seines|seins
they them to_them theirs their: sie|man sie|ihnen denen|ihnen ihre|
ihrer|ihres ihr|ihre|deren
she her to_her hers her: sie|die ̌sie|die ihr ihre|ihrer|ihres ihre|
ihr
any any to_any any's any's: ein|etwas|irgendein|welche|irgendwelcher|
jeder|jeglicher|was " keine jeder_ist "
it it to_it its its: er|es|ihn|sie|ihm|das " es sein|seine|seiner
seines|seins|dessen
some some to_some some's some's: einige|manche|etwas|was|welche|
irgendwelcher|irgendein " bis_zu_einem_gewissen einige_der "
one one to_one one's one's: ̌man|eine|einer|eines|eins|
nach_dem_anderen|nach_der_anderen " zu_einem sein "
who whom to_whom whose whose: wer|wen|wem|der|die|das|welche wem
an_wen wes|wessen|dessen|deren "
-Aut
ChicagoDave
> One last comment: You want people to go out and talk about how awesome
> Textfyre's games are? Make awesome games.
I'm well aware of the website's issues. Working on it...and thanks for
the feedback.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Poster
Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org> wrote:
> ChicagoDave <david.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Plans were meant to change.
>
[snip]
> So, yes: If I were in your shoes, I'd be selling just one version, for
> $19.95. $10 is definitely too cheap. Indeed, it makes you *look*
> cheap. If I'm interested in what you've got, I'll pay $20 for it. And
> if what you've got isn't worth $20...well, I've got a backlog of games
> to get to.
I don't think this is backed up by market research. At $10, people have
nothing to lose and they're willing to take a shot on an unknown entity.
See the effect of EA's pricing with Left 4 Dead:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/57308
> Another problem with the games page: Just like the main page, there's a
> lack of focus. The demo links are understated, and occupy less space
> than the lengthy system requirements. Who cares about the system
> requirements?
I think people who want to buy a game DO care, especially if it's going
to install more Micro$oft stuff.
[snip]
> Now, I realize that you've got limited resources. You aren't going to
> have a slick, professionally-produced website like Telltale does. So
> here's an example of another indie game developer's site:
You would be surprised at how many web designers would be willing to
work for free (or for little) on something they care about.
>
> One last comment: You want people to go out and talk about how awesome
> Textfyre's games are? Make awesome games.
>
> - Damien
You know, being a jerk is a surefire way to have all your points
ignored. That's probably in the top ten laws of marketing somewhere.
You've got some good points, but your tone spends a lot of time in
mildly snarky to downright acidic territory -- or at least it reads that
way. Just FYI.
Gravel
for an unknown text game that I was very interested in, but unsure of
the quality. (I'm thinking of this in line with, say, Torchlight,
which is $20, but garnered rave reviews pretty much everywhere, or
Plants vs. Zombies, which was $6-10, I think, and garnered rave
reviews pretty much everywhere.) But that's me, and I understand if
you can get 70% of your customers to pay twice as much, you gross more
money. If I were feeling very flush, I'd pay $20 for a game from a
developer I have confidence in, whose games I have loved in the past
and who have released a game with an interesting concept. Otherwise,
I'll wait for the price to fall. (It almost always does,
eventually.) For parents, I think having a price in line with a book
is better. $25 is pretty steep for a children's book. But I'm not a
marketing guru, thank goodness.
I think Damien's points about the website are excellent, especially
the advice to look at other folks and see how it's set up. I'd also
look at authors and publishers - both for what's good and what isn't.
Ultimately, you can have a pretty basic flawed website (albeit with
perfect grammar :) and still do well if your products are known (and
hopefully awesome.) Case in point: J.K. Rowling's text-only website
is phenomenally awful - bright yellow text on a black background,
without any sort of shaping or style. She can get away with that,
both because she's famous and customers are much more likely to
encounter her work elsewhere. But if you're not known, I think the
little things are much more important.
I'm pleased to see Emily's review up, and look forward to going over
it a little later.
Damien Neil
> I don't think this is backed up by market research. At $10, people have
> nothing to lose and they're willing to take a shot on an unknown entity.
> See the effect of EA's pricing with Left 4 Dead:
>
> http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/57308
Sales appear to have an entirely different dynamic. Offering something
at $40 and temporarily cutting the price to $20 produces different
effects from offering it at $20 in the first place.
Note that Valve didn't leave Left 4 Dead at half price; they put it on
sale for a weekend, reaped a huge increase in sales, and returned it to
the normal price. Why not leave it at the reduced price, and continue
to receive increased sales? Clearly they expect that the bump in sales
produced by a reduced price will not last.
Also, there is *no* price point other than "free" at which people have
"nothing to lose". See, for example, people claiming that $2 iPhone
games are "overpriced". No matter what price you set, you'll get people
saying that they'd buy if only it was cheaper.
Will you get more sales at $10 than at $20? Probably, yes. Two times
as many? I'm dubious.
For what it's worth, I'd pay $20 for _In the Shadow of the Cathedral_,
based on Emily's review. I probably wouldn't pay $1 for _Jack Toresal_,
because I haven't read any reviews that make me want to play it; I'd
rather play _The King of Shreds and Patches_, or get back to restarting
_Blue Lacuna_.
> > Another problem with the games page: Just like the main page, there's a
> > lack of focus. The demo links are understated, and occupy less space
> > than the lengthy system requirements. Who cares about the system
> > requirements?
>
> I think people who want to buy a game DO care, especially if it's going
> to install more Micro$oft stuff.
I would have to recommend against designing your marketing materials for
people who spell Microsoft with a "$".
> You know, being a jerk is a surefire way to have all your points
> ignored. That's probably in the top ten laws of marketing somewhere.
> You've got some good points, but your tone spends a lot of time in
> mildly snarky to downright acidic territory -- or at least it reads that
> way. Just FYI.
I'm certain you're right. To be honest, DavidC comes across as a bit of
a dick to me a lot of the time--he's constantly talked about how little
he cares about the existing IF fan community as customers, while
simultaneously griping about how little support he gets. I think that
affects my tone.
That said, I'd like to see Textfyre succeed.
- Damien
Damien Neil
> I'm certain you're right. To be honest, DavidC comes across as a bit of
> a dick to me a lot of the time--he's constantly talked about how little
> he cares about the existing IF fan community as customers, while
> simultaneously griping about how little support he gets. I think that
> affects my tone.
You know what? That was completely inappropriate of me, and far more
dickish than anything DavidC has ever posted. His posting style may rub
me the wrong way, but that doesn't justify my calling him names.
David, my apologies.
- Damien, learning once again to wait before hitting "Post".
George Oliver
> You know what? That was completely inappropriate of me
Hey, I for one forgive you :). I think yours and Urbatain's points
were spot on.
Also, I realize it's ad hoc in the first place, but the term 'hobbyist
edition' needs to go in my opinion. How about 'Classic'? :D
ChicagoDave
> I'm certain you're right. To be honest, DavidC comes across as a bit of
> a dick to me a lot of the time--he's constantly talked about how little
> he cares about the existing IF fan community as customers, while
> simultaneously griping about how little support he gets. I think that
> affects my tone.
You obviously weren't around for past discussions about making IF
commercially viable. I never said I didn't care. In fact, I think it's
fairly obvious (to me at least) that I care very deeply about my
beloved hobby. So much so that I've put a lot of effort and cash into
trying to make it work as a business.
I've tried to build the business plan to be founded on a targeted, but
broader market, as opposed to expecting the existing IF audience or
even indy or casual gamers to shoulder the load. The intention is to
figure out how to make the model work. Once we have a functioning
business model, we can expand into areas that are outside the business
plan, like working with independent authors to develop and market
their own material.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone who understands the
IF community would ever assume I was trying to disrespect the
community. If anything, I thought it was obvious that the community
_can't_ sustain any business model. What the community _can_ do is
help with initial sales, reviews, public relations, and the like.
Granted, I probably strayed too far away from the community in my
communications and plan. Developing games that the community wants to
buy is important to develop initial sales and business process
knowledge. I was probably over-confident in the support I would
receive from the community. Of course Secret Letter has been a
disappointment so far, but I still think it has an audience. Just not
likely in the IF community. I believe the sequel to Secret Letter as
well as the other games, will prove we're trying to balance a lower
barrier to entry with sophisticated and entertaining stories. I think
Shadow in the Cathedral is proof of where we are and where we want to
go.
Of course there are people that simply do not understand what a
"business plan" or "business model" is, or what a "target market" is,
or any of the other things associated with starting a business, but I
can't help that. I just have to learn, adapt, and move forward.
Textfyre is likely to go through many growing pains. You get to
witness all of them first hand. Sometimes it will be fun, like seeing
Emily's playthisthing.com review. Sometimes it will be bad, like
having you call me a dick. No matter what, it's all a part of the
process.
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Adam Thornton
but I've certainly seen worse. It was obvious where to click to buy the
Glulx version of _The Shadow in the Cathedral_.
My only complaint is a snark about the shopping cart provider:
"e-commerce powered by e-junkie(TM)"
I mean, seriously: whose brilliant idea was it to claim "Hey, nothing
says safe, dependable commerce like the word 'junkie!'" ? How did these
guys get their funding? How have they managed to stay in business?
Adam
ChicagoDave
Yeah - weird....but they're pretty big and well-respected. And
probably the best solution for what I use them for, which is to
consolidate downloads off my servers. They also consolidate the
payment data and send it to my server, which is convenient.
Thanks!
David C.
www.textfyre.com
Conrad
>
> Did I not already say, "a person -> one; the person -> who"?
> Therefore, "each should do whose" yet "every should do one's". No
> more His or Her, His/Her, Hir, Xer, or Their giibberish from
> wanEnglish illiterates.
Dunno if you did say it already, lady, but, "Each should do whose" and
"Every should do one's" sound like broken English to me.
I say, if you don't like using "they" then pick "he" or "she" and
stick with it. Then use the other one to disambig complex thoughts.
Personally, I address the reader as "you," and impersonality be
damned: I'm fine with writing with personality.
Conrad.
Thomas Insel
ChicagoDave <david.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Starting tomorrow, the Glulx version of Shadow in the Cathedral will
>be available as a regular product purchase for $9.95. It will be
>called the Hobbyist Edition and will contain only the game file, the
>EULA, a hints web page, and the Intro doc. We will point you to all
>the right places to find a Glulx interpreter, but we're obviously not
>going to support any UI issues if you purchase this version.
>
>The Deluxe and Standard Editions will eventually contain the raw Glulx
>file as well. Anyone purchasing these versions are entitled to the raw
>Glulx file.
That's a great decision.
I'm only one data point, but if you can keep providing new games as
good as Shadow, in a portable format and at that price point, I'll keep
buying them.
Tom
Autymn D. C.
> On Nov 16, 6:49 am, "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Did I not already say, "a person -> one; the person -> who"?
> > Therefore, "each should do whose" yet "every should do one's". No
> > more His or Her, His/Her, Hir, Xer, or Their giibberish from
> > wanEnglish illiterates.
>
> Dunno if you did say it already, lady, but, "Each should do whose" and
> "Every should do one's" sound like broken English to me.
English was broken 1000 years ago so I'm not startled by your
opinion. Broken English is Standard today, and the world is twisted
daft. (twisted daft = twistedly daft and twisted daftly) Never mined
your mind; Who is still a pronoun and we need to wit so.
> I say, if you don't like using "they" then pick "he" or "she" and
> stick with it. Then use the other one to disambig complex thoughts.
> Personally, I address the reader as "you," and impersonality be
> damned: I'm fine with writing with personality.
I'm not sexist, blind, or deaf. Each or every is often neither lone
pronoun. Would you call your mother a he, your brother a she?.
-Aut
James Jolley
No but we'd call you a fucking troll!
Gravel
> You obviously weren't around for past discussions about making IF
> commercially viable.
> I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone who understands the
> IF community would ever assume I was trying to disrespect the
> community.
> Of course there are people that simply do not understand what a
> "business plan" or "business model" is, or what a "target market" is,
> or any of the other things associated with starting a business, but I
> can't help that. I just have to learn, adapt, and move forward.
I'm not sure the most convincing response to "sometimes he comes off
like a jerk" is "well, you just don't understand the IF Community! Or
business! In fact, you must be a noob!"
I like the changes to the website - kudos.
Conrad
> English was broken 1000 years ago so I'm not startled by your
I wasn't notified. But as I dispute the brokenness of my mother
tongue, I resist your efforts to have the poor thing neutered -- err,
fixed.
> I'm not sexist, blind, or deaf. Each or every is often neither lone
> pronoun. Would you call your mother a he, your brother a she?.
Maybe you're not, Aut; but you are in equal parts colorful and cold.
C.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
[snip]
>Also, there is *no* price point other than "free" at which people have
>"nothing to lose". See, for example, people claiming that $2 iPhone
>games are "overpriced". No matter what price you set, you'll get people
>saying that they'd buy if only it was cheaper.
At free, people still have something to lose. If I have read
reports that a certain game is very buggy, can crash my system, has
spyware bundled with it, or any number of severe faults (and such
reports are credible), I am not going to download the game. You would
have to pay me to take the game, and that is not saying that I would
install it.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Benjamin Caplan
> May I suggest some changes to your website?
As long as we're kibbutzing:
On the "Games" page, the bolded titles refer to the standard and deluxe
"versions", but the individual line items refer to the standard or
deluxe "editions". You should probably pick one or the other and stick
with it; I recommend "edition".
The standard edition of _Secret Letter_ via Google Checkout says
"Purchase the Edition Version", which is certainly wrong.
Incidentally, I'm really enjoying _Shadow in the Cathedral_.
Poster
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:14:07 -0800, Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Also, there is *no* price point other than "free" at which people have
> >"nothing to lose". See, for example, people claiming that $2 iPhone
> >games are "overpriced". No matter what price you set, you'll get people
> >saying that they'd buy if only it was cheaper.
It's clear from the table in the article that $10 was the magic price
point that lead to massive purchases. That's the point at which people
felt that they had "nothing to lose".
There's no need to argumentative parse my sentence to try to find some
price point that satisfies all buyers for all time. That wasn't the
point of what I was saying, because that's a futile and impossible
quest! Again, let's go back to the table.
$10 is the magic number at which people (not meaning "EVERY GAME BUYER")
but PEOPLE (game buyers in general -- I feel like I'm explaining English
to an alien or something) felt that it was worth $10 to buy the game,
and if it sucked, no big deal.
Again, for further reference, see the table.
*shaking head*
I'm still amazed by some of the discussions I read here. Still.
Ben Cressey
> but PEOPLE (game buyers in general -- I feel like I'm explaining English
> to an alien or something) felt that it was worth $10 to buy the game,
> and if it sucked, no big deal.
Well, to be fair, the table only gives the percentage of the
unspecified starting value, so it's not entirely clear that a 75% sale
represents a $10 purchase.
Also, the article shows no data points below $10. It is at least
conceivable that a $5 price point would have led to an even greater
sales volume. Clearly all the game buyers who paid $10 for a game
felt it was worth $10; this is very nearly a tautology. But that does
not rule out the existence of a potentially greater population of game
buyers who consider the game overpriced at $10 but would pay $5 for
it. And so on down to $0, as Damien suggests.
All the table really shows is that demand increases as cost goes to
zero, which follows logically from the fundamental elasticity of video
game purchases.
For an interesting approach to maximizing revenue to the seller, see
this recent article in the Economist:
http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/economicsfocus/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14699573
Essentially the ideal is to set the sale price individually for each
buyer, near the highest amount they are willing to pay. Outside of
Ebay this is not realistic, but sellers can come closer by bundling
products together, or by charging a subscription fee for access plus a
fixed fee per item. Done correctly, it leaves both buyers and sellers
better off.
Gene Wirchenko
>In article <pvg5g5l0l1hrt4s4k...@4ax.com>,
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:14:07 -0800, Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >Also, there is *no* price point other than "free" at which people have
>> >"nothing to lose". See, for example, people claiming that $2 iPhone
>> >games are "overpriced". No matter what price you set, you'll get people
>> >saying that they'd buy if only it was cheaper.
>
>It's clear from the table in the article that $10 was the magic price
>point that lead to massive purchases. That's the point at which people
>felt that they had "nothing to lose".
Most people perhaps, not all.
>There's no need to argumentative parse my sentence to try to find some
>price point that satisfies all buyers for all time. That wasn't the
>point of what I was saying, because that's a futile and impossible
>quest! Again, let's go back to the table.
It was not argumentative parsing. Some appear to think that free
is a totally magical point. It definitely is magical, but not
*totally*.
>$10 is the magic number at which people (not meaning "EVERY GAME BUYER")
>but PEOPLE (game buyers in general -- I feel like I'm explaining English
>to an alien or something) felt that it was worth $10 to buy the game,
>and if it sucked, no big deal.
When you gloss over distinctions (people vs. most people), it can
seem that way, yes. I make the distinction.
>Again, for further reference, see the table.
>
>*shaking head*
>
>I'm still amazed by some of the discussions I read here. Still.
Think of it as getting your perspective widened. If we all
thought the same as you, it would be boring. The same applies to me
and to those others reading.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Adam Thornton
Autymn D. C. <lysd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I'm not sexist, blind, or deaf. Each or every is often neither lone
>pronoun. Would you call your mother a he, your brother a she?.
*Your* mother and *your* brother, sure.
Adam
Urbatain
times" to comments, right now we must register to share our thoughts
with you before your articles; and we don't now if that registration
is the same of the forum, or the same of the textfyre web. The forum,
your website and the textfyre website seems to be not connected. You
have no link to textfyre times from textfyre, and right now I cannot
see the link to the forum, and I didn't remember it.
The soon you fix that, the better.
It's quite great to have Shadow in Playthisthing. I'm thinking to make
a Spanish review for Literactiva of the deluxe demos (right now I have
no money at all, maybe by Christmas), but I don't think we have very
much potential customers in Hispanic countries yet, we are starting to
try to open the medium to new audiences:
Best wishes,
Urbatain.
Martin Str|mberg
> Outside of
> Ebay this is not realistic, but sellers can come closer by bundling
> products together, or by charging a subscription fee for access plus a
> fixed fee per item. Done correctly, it leaves both buyers and sellers
> better off.
Hohum, perhaps ChicagoDave should put up a weekly action on ebay with
a starting bid at 8 or 9? Then when the bid goes above 10, he could give
the buyer the option of only paying 10.
--
MartinS
Peter T. Daniels
> In article <9468443b-0487-4091-a095-2001c6a5e...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Peter T. Daniels
Peter T. Daniels
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter T. Daniels
Aaron A. Reed
> Hi everyone,
>
> We now have two games out and sales to the hobbyist community have
> been fairly dismal. I'm sure the bulk of this is that we created games
> that are more accessible to non-IF players, specifically middle school
> kids. This is not to say that the games are simple or dumbed down.
> They are, from our perspective, very entertaining.
>
> So far, we have been unable to market to the middle school market. I
> fund Textfyre out of my own pocket and unfortunately, the economy has
> been a drag on my personal finances, as is likely true for many of us.
> The company is fine, but we need to get the word out as widely as
> possible. Textfyre needs you to invest as a customer, blogger, social
> networker, or in anyway that helps bring people to our website and
> products. You're our cheerleading team. We need your help to spread
> the word.
>
> So I'm growing more sympathetic to the ideals of the hobbyist
> community and would rather bend in order to have a wider distribution
> of the products and hopefully, more feedback and interest. For a
> limited time, I'm considering releasing the raw glulx file associated
> with both games at the same price as the Standard Edition, which is
> $9.95. Before I do this, I'd like to find out how many people would
> purchase either Secret Letter or Shadow in the Cathedral in this form.
>
> Please send an e-mail to sales at textfyre dot com if you're
> interested in one or both games in Glulx format.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David C.
I was about to pimp "Shadow" to some Facebook friends, but it looks
like textfyre.com is down??
--Aaron
Jim Aikin
>
> I was about to pimp "Shadow" to some Facebook friends, but it looks
> like textfyre.com is down??
Seems to be back up now, with a new homepage. The demo of Shadow has a
type zoom slider (great idea! wow!) and every turn -- sometimes in the
MIDDLE of game text -- it tells you "Remember, you can type 'help' if
you need assistance" (totally breaks any sense of immersion).
--JA
S. John Ross
> I'm sure the bulk of this is that we created games that are more accessible to non-IF players, specifically middle school kids.
Your games so far seem surgically targeted at the _parents and
educators_ rather than the kids, and that makes perfect sense since
they're the real (paying) market for your titles.
If you made games targeting the middle-schoolers themselves, I would
be salivating, pushing money at you, and cheering you from the highest
hills. But the parents and educators would be pursing their lips,
stiffly adjusting their purple hair, and sniffing the air in the
negative while waggling a disapproving finger.
Can't please everyone, and things only get MORE boring if you try.
ChicagoDave
The help reminder lasts for the first 4 turns.
The Silverlight interface is Chris Cavanagh's who has kindly allowed
us to use it.
David C.
Andrew Plotkin
> On Nov 19, 1:31�am, Jim Aikin <midigur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Aaron A. Reed wrote:
> >
> > > I was about to pimp "Shadow" to some Facebook friends, but it looks
> > > like textfyre.com is down??
> >
> > Seems to be back up now, with a new homepage. The demo of Shadow has a
> > type zoom slider (great idea! wow!) and every turn -- sometimes in the
> > MIDDLE of game text -- it tells you "Remember, you can type 'help' if
> > you need assistance" (totally breaks any sense of immersion).
>
Cut it off after the user has typed "help" once?
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Nathan
> Starting tomorrow, the Glulx version of Shadow in the Cathedral will
> be available as a regular product purchase for $9.95.
This is what I've been waiting for! Thank you.
I bought mine just now. Already impressed with the quality.
I know my $10 doesn't mean much, and I have little
influence, but I do want to see you succeed. I would
prefer it if you dumped Silverlight altogether (I still
tell everyone I know not to install it), but if it's your
best way to become the next Infocom and you
keep offering the Hobbyist Edition, then so be it.
Just don't develop a Silverlight database, okay?
Autymn D. C.
> > I'm not sexist, blind, or deaf. Each or every is often neither lone
> > pronoun. Would you call your mother a he, your brother a she?.
>
Ye would not; you would, and I'd call you a deluded liar who can't con
the dictionary.
Autymn D. C.
> On Nov 17, 5:39 am, "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > English was broken 1000 years ago so I'm not startled by your
>
> I wasn't notified. But as I dispute the brokenness of my mother
> tongue, I resist your efforts to have the poor thing neutered -- err,
> fixed.
You were here 1000 years ago? You would easily fail:
dispute
tongue
resist
effort
neuter
That's no way to talk English.
> > I'm not sexist, blind, or deaf. Each or every is often neither lone
> > pronoun. Would you call your mother a he, your brother a she?.
>
> Maybe you're not, Aut; but you are in equal parts colorful and cold.
and bleak and hot, thanks.
-Aut
Autymn D. C.
> In article <pvg5g5l0l1hrt4s4k...@4ax.com>,
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:14:07 -0800, Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org>
> > wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> > >Also, there is *no* price point other than "free" at which people have
> > >"nothing to lose". See, for example, people claiming that $2 iPhone
> > >games are "overpriced". No matter what price you set, you'll get people
> > >saying that they'd buy if only it was cheaper.
>
> It's clear from the table in the article that $10 was the magic price
> point that lead to massive purchases. That's the point at which people
> felt that they had "nothing to lose".
>
> There's no need to argumentative parse my sentence to try to find some
> price point that satisfies all buyers for all time. That wasn't the
And if the game is worth $10, then the trade was even. Besides there
are still whiners who say a bad game/site/post owes them minutes of
their life.
Christian Weisgerber
> You were here 1000 years ago? You would easily fail:
>
> dispute
> tongue
> resist
> effort
> neuter
>
> That's no way to talk English.
Tsk-tsk. "Tongue" is not a loan word.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Conrad
> Autymn D. C. <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > You were here 1000 years ago? You would easily fail:
>
> > dispute
> > tongue
> > resist
> > effort
> > neuter
>
> > That's no way to talk English.
>
> Tsk-tsk. "Tongue" is not a loan word.
I <3 loan words. And I'm against efforts to purify the language,
which originate in creepy racist sentiments.
Lately you don't hear much against the Latin and French influences,
but more against the confluence of Hispanic Spanish and English.
Language rules; rules don't language.
Conrad.
Peter Moylan
> I <3 loan words. And I'm against efforts to purify the language,
> which originate in creepy racist sentiments.
Just when we thought smileys had been eliminated from the newsgroup. I
struggled mightily to understand the above. Finally it made sense when I
realised that '<3' is a symbol meaning "I dropped my ice cream".
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Conrad
>
> Just when we thought smileys had been eliminated from the newsgroup. I
> struggled mightily to understand the above. Finally it made sense when I
> realised that '<3' is a symbol meaning "I dropped my ice cream".
!-)
Steve Hayes
>Lately you don't hear much against the Latin and French influences,
>but more against the confluence of Hispanic Spanish and English.
I wondered a bit about "Hispanic Spanish", but I suppose it's a bit like
"British English", and we could abbreviate it HiS, as opposed to say LAS
(Latin-American Spanish).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:01:57 -0800 (PST), Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lately you don't hear much against the Latin and French influences,
>> but more against the confluence of Hispanic Spanish and English.
>
> I wondered a bit about "Hispanic Spanish", but I suppose it's a bit like
> "British English",
No, it isn't, because whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
"Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
_not_ include people rom Spain (unless they are from "Hispanic"
origins). For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
Spanish". I think Conrad probably meant the opposite of what you're
assuming, but who knows?
> and we could abbreviate it HiS, as opposed to say LAS
> (Latin-American Spanish).
--
athel
Benjamin Caplan
> I <3 loan words. And I'm against efforts to purify the language,
> which originate in creepy racist sentiments.
Really? I assumed they originated in a desire to make the language rules
more consistent and the language therefore easier to learn as a second
language.
Steve Hayes
<acor...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2009-11-23 07:10:08 +0100, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:01:57 -0800 (PST), Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Lately you don't hear much against the Latin and French influences,
>>> but more against the confluence of Hispanic Spanish and English.
>>
>> I wondered a bit about "Hispanic Spanish", but I suppose it's a bit like
>> "British English",
>
>No, it isn't, because whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
>"Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
>_not_ include people rom Spain (unless they are from "Hispanic"
>origins). For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
>Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
>Spanish". I think Conrad probably meant the opposite of what you're
>assuming, but who knows?
Castellano?
vaporware
Someone put a cigarette out in your eye?
vw
Cora Fuchs
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Castellano?
That's what they claim to speak in Argentina. For some reason, they
don't seem to want the rest of the world to think they speak Latin
American Spanish.
(As if there could be only one Latin American Spanish, anyway.)
Ruud Harmsen
<acor...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>: in sci.lang:
>> I wondered a bit about "Hispanic Spanish", but I suppose it's a bit like
>> "British English",
>
>No, it isn't, because whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
>"Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
>_not_ include people rom Spain (unless they are from "Hispanic"
>origins). For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
>Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
>Spanish".
Iberic? European?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
Panu
> Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:19:34 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>
> >> I wondered a bit about "Hispanic Spanish", but I suppose it's a bit like
> >> "British English",
>
> >No, it isn't, because whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
> >"Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
> >_not_ include people rom Spain (unless they are from "Hispanic"
> >origins). For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
> >Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
> >Spanish".
>
> Iberic? European?
Peninsular Spanish is the usual technical term.
Steve Hayes
But that raises the question of east or west Iberia (well, I suppose in east
Iberia they never spoke Spanish).
Steve Hayes
Yes, about as likely as one English English, never mind one British English.
Conrad
No, they're generally based on the idea of status. People decided
that we weren't supposed to, intentionally or otherwise, split
infinitives because you can't split infinitives in Latin, which had
more cultural cache at the time than did English. Later, the pendulum
swung the other way and some argued for "good Anglo-Saxon words,"
sometimes digging up absurdities like "yclept" (for "named"). It
centered around racial pride. Certainly it had nothing to do with
making foreigners' lives easier -- although there *was* a movement
with that motive. See "Basic English." I believe the creator was
named Ogden.
Conrad.
ps - Vapor -- I'm sorry you are so blind.
the Omrud
You're including AUE, so I'm going to query "cache". I've never seen
this - it's "cachet" in BrE.
--
David
John Atkinson
> Conrad wrote:
[c&S]). Though I couldn't quite work out what the hell a cultural cache
could be, in the context.
J.
Mike Lyle
> the Omrud wrote:
>> Conrad wrote:
[...]
>>>
>>> No, they're generally based on the idea of status. People decided
>>> that we weren't supposed to, intentionally or otherwise, split
>>> infinitives because you can't split infinitives in Latin, which had
>>> more cultural cache at the time than did English. Later, the
>>> pendulum swung the other way and some argued for "good Anglo-Saxon
>>> words," sometimes digging up absurdities like "yclept" (for
>>> "named"). It centered around racial pride. Certainly it had
>>> nothing to do with making foreigners' lives easier -- although
>>> there *was* a movement with that motive. See "Basic English." I
>>> believe the creator was named Ogden.
>>
>> You're including AUE, so I'm going to query "cache". I've never seen
>> this - it's "cachet" in BrE.
>>
> Yeah. In AmE too I'm sure. I thought he meant <cache> (pronounced
> [c&S]). Though I couldn't quite work out what the hell a cultural
> cache could be, in the context.
>
It may be safe to summarily ignore the views of anybody who thinks both
that Latin periphrastic infinitives can't be "split"*, and that it's the
reason for a rigid disapproval of doing it in English. The reason (isn't
it?) is a misplaced sense of style; that, in turn, I suppose, arose from
an uncritical awareness that the position of an adverb may affect the
meaning of the sentence, and a reasonable fear of crowding too long a
phrase between the "to" and the infinitive proper.
*I've mentioned this before, but was unable to think of an example from
literature: I still can't, so help wanted, please.
--
Mike.
Roland Hutchinson
Stretching a point, it could be "cultural cash" -- an informal innovation
for "cultural currency" -- if that made any sense in context (there would
have had to have been a _lot_ of Latin speakers in England, but I suppose
among the educated classes there were, so what-the-hey).
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Richard Bos
> Damien Neil wrote:
> > May I suggest some changes to your website?
>
> As long as we're kibbutzing:
YM kibitzing. It has to do with lapwings, not with collective farming.
Richard
Nathan
wrote:
> whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
> "Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
> origins).
Never encountered either of these claims before; maybe it's
because I usually see/hear the term "Hispanic" in official
government use, which is based on self-identification.
I've never found a Brazilian who self-identifies as
Hispanic, nor a Spaniard who doesn't.
If the subject is "race", then the US government doesn't
recognize a separate racial category for such
identifications, but informally I mostly hear "Latino". That
one includes all of the above.
Jerry Friedman
> On Nov 23, 10:46 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.eu> wrote:
>
> > Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:19:34 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>: in sci.lang:
> > >For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
> > >Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
> > >Spanish".
>
> > Iberic? European?
>
> Peninsular Spanish is the usual technical term.
Giving Mexicans an opportunity to inquire, with feigned ignorance,
whether the Yucatan peninsula is meant. If I had opinions on Spanish
usage, I'd wish the usual technical term were "Spanish Spanish" or
"European Spanish".
--
Jerry Friedman
John W Kennedy
> On Nov 23, 4:25 am, Panu <craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 23, 10:46 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:19:34 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>: in sci.lang:
>
>>>> For the meaning you have in mind I usually say "Spanish
>>>> Spanish", but if you don't like that there's always "peninsular
>>>> Spanish".
>>> Iberic? European?
>> Peninsular Spanish is the usual technical term.
>
> Giving Mexicans an opportunity to inquire, with feigned ignorance,
> whether the Yucatan peninsula is meant. If I had opinions on Spanish
> usage, I'd wish the usual technical term were "Spanish Spanish" or
> "European Spanish".
In my experience, "Castilian", however technically inadequate, is the
usual expression.
--
John W. Kennedy
A proud member of the reality-based community.
Steve Hayes
>On Nov 22, 11:19 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>
>wrote:
>> whatever logic or etymology might suggest,
>> "Hispanic" as used in the US includes people from Brazil, it does
>> _not_ include people from Spain (unless they are from "Hispanic"
>> origins).
>
>Never encountered either of these claims before; maybe it's
>because I usually see/hear the term "Hispanic" in official
>government use, which is based on self-identification.
>I've never found a Brazilian who self-identifies as
>Hispanic, nor a Spaniard who doesn't.
My dictionary gives "Hispanic" as:
1.,Relating to, characteristic of or derived from Spain or the Spanish.
2. US. A US citizen of Spanish or Latin-American descent.
Thus when applied to language, "Hispanic Spanish" surely means Spanish as
spoken in Spain, as opposed to the kind of Spanish spoken in other
Spanish-speaking countries. A Language isn't really a citizen.
Of course my dictionary could have got it wrong.
R H Draney
How about "Old World Spanish"?...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?