The ponderings of a new author...
I.B.
Recently (a few months ago) I tried to write my first completed IF
work… It is a really small game, but I’ve discovered a problem while
I’m writing it…
As I immerse myself deeper and deeper in the game (and the world) I
find that the possible commands and all the things that the player can
try are nearly endless…
And I try to cover as many of them as I can… until authoring has
started becoming boring...
I remember the words of Jimmy Maher in the editorial of SPAG #55:
“I just wonder what we might get if authors could spend less time on
crazy verb-noun combinations and more on the important aspects of
their storyworlds. For more story-focused, literary IF in particular,
would we prefer our authors spend their time making it possible to
look behind every object in their storyworld or would we rather they
use that time and energy into making, say, their NPC's even more
lifelike and responsive?”
How should I deal with this problem? How are more experienced authors
dealing with it?
I’m really thinking about turning to “point and click” IF. Then the
possible input from the player can really be controlled…
Thanks!
I.B.
Conrad
Hi, I.B.
First, I'd point you at the IF Wiki: http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Category:Basics
Basically, I'd say you're proceeding in the wrong direction. Instead
think of what you want to happen. Then ask what the player needs to
do to make that happen. Finally, figure out how to use the obvious
text (and behavior) to lead the player, layer by layer, into non-
obvious behavior and text.
When something isn't relevant to your story, don't implement it. Or,
implement it so that it re-directs the player toward your story's
script.
Conrad.
I.B.
I hadn't thought about proceeding in layers, like you said. It's a
very interesting point of view and I think I'll try it.
Your link leads to a very general list. Is it correct?
Thanks!
I.B.
Andrew Plotkin
>
> As I immerse myself deeper and deeper in the game (and the world) I
> find that the possible commands and all the things that the player can
> And I try to cover as many of them as I can? until authoring has
> started becoming boring...
> [...]
>
> How should I deal with this problem? How are more experienced authors
> dealing with it?
Actually I'll disagree with Conrad. The answer is: it's hard work, and
you have to do it. If you were making a movie, you'd have to set up
the lights for every shot, or find someone to do it. It's boring, and
it's part of the job. Same thing here.
We have tools to make it easier.
The first realization is: there aren't *that* many verbs, and there
aren't *that* many objects. And you're covering the possibilities in
clumps, not one at a time. A good "That makes no sense" default
message will take care of most of the cases for any given verb.
Looking behind most objects *doesn't* make sense. Listening to most
objects produces silence. The library already handles these defaults
pretty well (although not perfectly).
Similarly, for many game objects, you can wipe away a lot of the cases
with a single rule. Far-away scenery? Knock out everything but
"examine". Air, smoke, gas, light, noise? You can take care of all the
tactile actions (push/pull/touch/etc) with one declaration.
So while you have to *think* about a lot of combinations, you don't
have to write code for most of them.
Of course, you have to keep control of your game mechanics. There's a
reason games shy away from fire. If you want the player to pour water
on something, you've signed up for a tedious afternoon of futzing with
the "pour", "empty", and "fill" verbs, not to mention customizing
"take" and "put in" for the relevant cases. It's not impossible, it's
just work. Decide how many such interactions your game needs, work the
hell out of the ones you put in, and stay away from the rest.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Andrew Plotkin
agreeing with him. :)
Here, Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Basically, I'd say you're proceeding in the wrong direction. Instead
> think of what you want to happen. Then ask what the player needs to
> do to make that happen.
Exactly. Focus on those. Everything else needs to be considered, but
can be simple messages to move the player in the right direction.
Adam Thornton
I.B. <littlemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>How should I deal with this problem? How are more experienced authors
>dealing with it?
>I’m really thinking about turning to “point and click” IF. Then the
>possible input from the player can really be controlled…
Well, if you're wedded to text, then you want to use one of the CYOA
systems, or just linked hypertext.
If you're not, you may want to look at AGS, which is designed to let you
build Scumm-like graphical adventures.
Adam
Jim Aikin
and haven't downloaded my Handbook (www.musicwords.net/if/i7hb.htm) you
might want to do so. the section called "The Detail Trap" describes what
it sounds like what you're experiencing.
One good way to proceed, I've found, is to lay out the basics for the
entire game first -- all of the rooms (with descriptions), all of the
objects, all of the characters, and so forth -- before you start dealing
with the specifics of which actions will affect which objects.
I typically leave NPC conversations for a later stage in the writing
process.
When dealing with specific coding issues (for instance, picking a flower
or filling a bucket), I try to look at it as a puzzle that I'm trying to
solve. That makes the writing process fun, or at least more fun than it
would be otherwise.
--JA
I.B.
You're very helpful, as always!
JA, your link gave back a 404, but I've already downloaded your
handbook. Could you please tell me which chapter is this section on?
Thanks!
I.B.
Jim Aikin
It's on p. 25. It's not a long section -- my previous post covered the
essence.
The link shouldn't give a 404. It's working fine here. Possibly you
mis-typed it.
--JA
strask
> The link shouldn't give a 404. It's working fine here. Possibly you
> mis-typed it.
The lack of http:// at the front causes it to behave as a relative
link, depending on the newsreader. So if someone is using google
groups, it translates to http://www.google.com/www.musicwords.net/if/i7hb.htm
which is of course not reachable. :)
Andy Kosela
> In article <abbadd26-dd20-4e99...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> I.B. <littlemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>How should I deal with this problem? How are more experienced authors
>>dealing with it?
>>possible input from the player can really be controlled?
>
> Well, if you're wedded to text, then you want to use one of the CYOA
> systems, or just linked hypertext.
>
> If you're not, you may want to look at AGS, which is designed to let you
> build Scumm-like graphical adventures.
I don't think that one person can do full-blown graphical adventure. It
involves much more than just pure text. The hardest part would be the
graphical part I guess -- you can take a look at AGD Interactive team
who done remakes of some of the old Sierra games.
Like Aaron Reed written in his book, IF remains still the only game
design system for a lone author; all other graphical games are done by
whole teams of people.
--Andy
Rikard Peterson
Andy Kosela <ako...@andykosela.com> wrote:
> I don't think that one person can do full-blown graphical adventure.
I disagree, and offer my own game* as evidence A. (I can produce much
more evidence if needed.)
/ Rikard
Leandro Ribeiro
> I’m really thinking about turning to “point and click” IF. Then the
> possible input from the player can really be controlled…
>
> Thanks!
> I.B.
I'm also a new author, since only in May came the first thought of trying to
write something, so I'm not here to give you advice (specially since I
strongly agree with what Plotkin and Aikin said), but I wanted to comfort
you: that feeling of yours - it will past.
At first it overwhelms you and scatters your creativity, but as you write
more and more you get more focused. Or not, and you'll quit. Or you'll die.
Or you’ll get married.
Anyway, it happened to me - getting past that "it's too much" feeling, I
mean; although marriage also happened, but that's not your fault.
Don't stop writing, and if you ever write a CYOA story, do it because a CYOA
system gives you something you need to that project, not because IF scared
the feces out of you.
Leandro
Chuck
There is an extension for I7 (Adventure Book by Edward Griffiths) that
I am now using to create my CYOA type of story. The use of flags that
can be turned off and on during the course of the story has a
tremendous effect on how the story evolves, much greater than what's
possible in a paper-based CYOA. My audience has no experience with
playing true IF so allowing for a choice of options is much less
frustrating for them than facing a blank prompt. I have wrestled with
more intricate I7 code and love the complexity of it. I just bought
Aaron Reed's book and look forward to becoming a better I7 coder. But
for now, and for my audience, I am loving the story that I am creating
and what Adventure Book makes possible. I can focus more on telling
the story than investing considerable time in coding.
Chuck
Conrad
FYI: Other CYOA solutions include:
--Each has its particular strengths and weaknesses. I'll say, the
most elaborate and impressive CYOA I've played is a chooseyourstory
game called _Mommy, Can I Go Out and Kill Tonight?_
It's really quite good. This is computer-assisted CYOA, and allows
you to keep an inventory. So it shades over into very simple IF. But
that's true for almost anything more elaborate than hypertext.
_Mommy, Can I Go Out and Kill Tonight?_ does a lot of things right.
It makes the goal of the game immediately clear. It explains the
choices it offers you clearly enough that you can make an informed
decision. Your character is at cause for somewhat over half the
story. These are all things that good parser IF generally must do.
And the game engine _Mommy_ is programmed in is very limited, lacking
string variables, for example.
It's worth study. The title conveys the tone of the game: it's
basically a comedy that would like to get an R rating.
Conrad.
ps - I'm not discouraging anyone from using a parser IF engine to make
CYOA. This is just information for those who want to see what's out
there.
dott.Piergiorgio
> FYI: Other CYOA solutions include:
>
> http://chooseyourstory.com/
>
> http://www.choiceofgames.com/
>
> http://www.renpy.org/
I consider Ren'py (and the sharp increase in VN production...) as a sort
of godchild of mine, because in early days of Ren'py I pointed to the IF
scene and that a centralized archive and forum/NG was a key ingredient
in keeping IF alive and (very) well, and the bounds and leaps in western
VN production still surprises me... And, of course, my WIP in VN are
still on workbench[1] and unannounced ;)
[1 - this should not be construed as utilizing an Amiga as dev platform ;) ]
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Jim Aikin
>
> FYI: Other CYOA solutions include:
>
> http://chooseyourstory.com/
>
> http://www.choiceofgames.com/
>
> http://www.renpy.org/
Also Undum (http://undum.com/). I took a quick look at it, and it seems
quite slick, if CYOA is your cuppa.
--JA
Conrad
>
> Also Undum (http://undum.com/). I took a quick look at it, and it seems
> quite slick, if CYOA is your cuppa.
Pretty! -- But I can't make the demo game do anything, in either of my
browsers. Anyone--?
C.
Poster
<abbadd26-dd20-4e99...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
"I.B." <littlemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello to all!
>
> Recently (a few months ago) I tried to write my first completed IF
> workŠ It is a really small game, but Iąve discovered a problem while
> Iąm writing itŠ
> As I immerse myself deeper and deeper in the game (and the world) I
> find that the possible commands and all the things that the player can
> try are nearly endlessŠ
> And I try to cover as many of them as I canŠ until authoring has
> started becoming boring...
>
> I remember the words of Jimmy Maher in the editorial of SPAG #55:
> łI just wonder what we might get if authors could spend less time on
> crazy verb-noun combinations and more on the important aspects of
> their storyworlds. For more story-focused, literary IF in particular,
> would we prefer our authors spend their time making it possible to
> look behind every object in their storyworld or would we rather they
> use that time and energy into making, say, their NPC's even more
> lifelike and responsive?˛
>
> How should I deal with this problem? How are more experienced authors
> dealing with it?
> Iąm really thinking about turning to łpoint and click˛ IF. Then the
> possible input from the player can really be controlledŠ
>
> Thanks!
> I.B.
The possible input from the player can be controlled quite easily in IF
by defining the mindset of the PC. Say that your PC is an anxious,
coffee-drinking, chain-smoking editor. You can use his current obsession
to get the slush pile drained to head off many actions. The problem in
many IF works is that the protagonist is generic, and thus there is no
reason to forbid any sort of action except for the physical world that
you're modeling. Define the PC well and these problems become
manageable.
--
Poster
www.intaligo.com I6 libraries, doom metal, Building, Zegrothenus
sturmdrangif.wordpress.com Game development blog / IF commentary
Seasons: Q4 '11 -- One-man projects are prone to delays.