first person narrative
Kees
It may be an old discussion, but I wondered how you feel about using
first person narrative in interactive fiction. The standard is second
person, and when there's a first person it's usually the parser ("I
beg your pardon?").
I feel that in the IF project I am embarking on, first person
narrative seems to fit the general mood and situation better much
better than second person. Unfortunately it does come with rewriting a
lot of the standard parser messages.
Do you know any examples that use first person narrative?
How would you go about seperating between parser messages and story
messages?
Cheers, Kees
Adam Thornton
Kees <wig...@views-and-vision.org> wrote:
>Do you know any examples that use first person narrative?
>How would you go about seperating between parser messages and story
>messages?
All of the Scott Adams games, for starters.
One convention I've seen is to enclose parser messages in square
brackets.
Adam
Jim Aikin
> How would you go about seperating between parser messages and story
> messages?
That depends partly on the development system you're using. In TADS 3,
all of the parser messages are available to the author for customization
-- and I don't believe most of them use "I" in any case. In Inform 7 you
might have to jump through some different hoops.
If I were writing a first-person game, I would lean toward past tense:
"I walked down the hall to the dining room." That seems more natural to
me, somehow, than first-person present tense. It creates a sort of
dynamic separation between the player and the PC, in which the player is
like a puppet-master enacting the story rather than a participant in the
story. YMMV.
--JA
David Fisher
news:6a272031-134c-4da5...@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I feel that in the IF project I am embarking on, first person
> narrative seems to fit the general mood and situation better much
> better than second person. Unfortunately it does come with rewriting a
> lot of the standard parser messages.
The "Custom Library Messages" extension allows you to set the viewpoint to
first person, and takes care of all the parser messages automatically.
> How would you go about seperating between parser messages and story
> messages?
That extension also lets you do things like print all parser messages in
italics, if that's the kind of thing you are thinking. Though I think it
would be better to only treat "out of world" messages this way (such as
"That's not a verb I recognise") -- apart from these messages, the player
doesn't necessarily know which ones are custom and which are printed by the
library, and it might look weird to display them both differently.
David Fisher
Jim Aikin
>
> That extension also lets you do things like print all parser messages in
> italics, if that's the kind of thing you are thinking. Though I think it
> would be better to only treat "out of world" messages this way (such as
> "That's not a verb I recognise") -- apart from these messages, the player
> doesn't necessarily know which ones are custom and which are printed by the
> library, and it might look weird to display them both differently.
That's the sort of message that absolutely needs to be rewritten in a
first-person game -- something like, "The word 'xxxx' is not necessary
in this story," would do nicely. It's a simple customization in a
conceptual sense, but it has to be carried out for every parser message.
Really, though ... why is the parser _ever_ "I"? That makes no sense.
--JA
Eric Forgeot
> It may be an old discussion, but I wondered how you feel about using
> first person narrative in interactive fiction. The standard is second
> person, and when there's a first person it's usually the parser ("I beg
> your pardon?").
>
And how about third person?
I find it strange that for Interactive fictions, "interactive novels",
the most common form is second person, which is almost never used in
literature (even if it works well for a game)
In French I think the first author who used first person in a game was
JB, in Ekphrasis. We did it also in the Lovecraft project "Lieux
Communs". And in my last game, I've written all the narration using third
person. I find it more interesting because it's more like writting a real
novel. For the player, it can be like playing a 3rd person adventure game
(lucasart, sierra...)
I wish I could see more 3rd person IF in English.
Conrad
>
> That's the sort of message that absolutely needs to be rewritten in a
> first-person game -- something like, "The word 'xxxx' is not necessary
> in this story," would do nicely. It's a simple customization in a
> conceptual sense, but it has to be carried out for every parser message.
>
> Really, though ... why is the parser _ever_ "I"? That makes no sense.
Because the parser is the storyteller.
Conrad.
Kees
It's not that easy. For a storyteller it's awkward to tell a story in
first person, unless it happened to the storyteller him/herself. The
parser is (normally) not part of the story, and would have a hard time
telling a story from first person perspective.
Kees
Andrew Plotkin
> On 23 jan, 22:21, Conrad <conradc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jim Aikin <midigur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > > That's the sort of message that absolutely needs to be rewritten in a
> > > first-person game -- something like, "The word 'xxxx' is not necessary
> > > in this story," would do nicely. It's a simple customization in a
> > > conceptual sense, but it has to be carried out for every parser message.
> >
> > > Really, though ... why is the parser _ever_ "I"? That makes no sense.
> >
> > Because the parser is the storyteller.
>
Say, then, that the parser is the dungeon-master.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Making a saint out of Reagan is sad. Making an idol out of Nixon ("If the
President does it then it's legal") is contemptible.
tayr...@yahoo.com
first person perspective.
I have it currently playable online here: http://tayruh.no-ip.org:8080/if/zmpp.php?game=terra.z8
Or downloadable from here: http://tayruh.no-ip.org:8080/if/terra.z8
Please forgive the fact that the game is extremely unpolished and
isn't very fleshed out. It was mostly just a tech demo for a first
person perspective, a proof of concept battle system, and the ability
to affect the moods of characters through interactions. But anyway, I
digress. The main reason I'm mentioning it is because it *does* have a
fully working first person perspective which wasn't hard to implement
at all. I don't seem to have the original source anymore (I lost it in
an hard drive crash :( ), but I was able to accomplish about 90% of
the text changes needed by editing english.h, if I remember correctly.
It was very easy. The other minor changes were by locating some of the
stuff inside the parser sections (for listing inventory items, for
instance.. I think).
IMO, a second person perspective works very well for text adventures
(as one the kinds that are more concentrated on exploration and puzzle
solving), since the still is more reminiscent of playing D&D with a
dungeon master.. but interactive fictions would be much more suited to
using a third or first person perspective. In my case, I really wanted
the story to be about Ayren and her life, making her an important well-
defined character. If you were to play the role of Ayren in second
person, I feel like you would be one of those personality-less mute
characters in console RPGs like Chrono Trigger, Shin Megami Tensei,
Dragon Quest, etc. Not very well suited for a story that's supposed to
be focused on the main character and their interaction with others,
IMO.
Also, I had fun breaking the fourth wall. Rather than having the
parser errors be "[You can't do that.]" or "I can't do that.", I had
Ayren talking to the player as if she understands that you're the one
controlling her. Like "Why the hell would I do that? What are you
thinking?!"
Smoov...@gmail.com
I think the post above mine hits the nail on the head. First-person
might work better in one instance, not so well for another. It has to
do with the style and the depth/type of characterization you're going
for.
I'd say that if you feel drawn to first person for your project, use
first person.
Chris
Urbatain
> That's the sort of message that absolutely needs to be rewritten in a
> first-person game -- something like, "The word 'xxxx' is not necessary
> in this story," would do nicely. It's a simple customization in a
> conceptual sense, but it has to be carried out for every parser message.
>
> Really, though ... why is the parser _ever_ "I"? That makes no sense.
>
Remember about puppets. Puppets could be the narrator, main character
and parser at the same time, and they're quite funny in humor games or
cave crawlings games. As someone said before, look at Scott Adams
games.
Urbatain.
Eriorg
wrote:
> And how about third person?
>
> I find it strange that for Interactive fictions, "interactive novels",
> the most common form is second person, which is almost never used in
> literature (even if it works well for a game)
>
> In French I think the first author who used first person in a game was
> JB, in Ekphrasis. We did it also in the Lovecraft project "Lieux
> Communs". And in my last game, I've written all the narration using third
> person. I find it more interesting because it's more like writting a real
> novel. For the player, it can be like playing a 3rd person adventure game
> (lucasart, sierra...)
>
> I wish I could see more 3rd person IF in English.
About third person narrative: I think that it's a good idea, but also
that it's more difficult to do in IF than in novels.
In a novel, the author always knows exactly what's the context of a
sentence -- in particular, the sentences which come just before it.
In IF, we're not so lucky: if we answer "He did something." when the
player tells the player character to do something, we can't be sure if
the player will understand that "he" refers to the PC and not to
another man who was mentioned more recently in the text. (Well, he'll
probably guess it, but it won't be very clear.) But if we answer every
single time with the name of the character, even when "he" would do in
context, it may become tiresome: imagine "Nebuchadrezzar did this.",
"Nebuchadrezzar did that.", etc. in every answer from the game...
I'm not saying this is unsolvable -- after all, parsers do understand
pronouns such as it, them or him, and it's a similar case -- but it's
a problem which seems difficult and doesn't exist in first and second
person narrative IF.
Another idea: in IF, third person narrative might be especially useful
when the player controls several player characters at the same time.
For instance, there could be two PCs, John and Mary, and if you gave
John orders, the game would reply that John did something and describe
Mary's reactions -- and vice versa, when you gave Mary orders. With
first or second person, we'd have to choose the point of view from
either John or Mary, not from both simultaneously.
Eric Forgeot
> guess it, but it won't be very clear.) But if we answer every single
> time with the name of the character, even when "he" would do in context,
> it may become tiresome: imagine "Nebuchadrezzar did this.",
> "Nebuchadrezzar did that.", etc. in every answer from the game...
not necessary. The author can mix sentences using the player's name and
he or she. For the automatic answers, most of them are not related to the
player : "it's fixed in place" etc
> I'm not saying this is unsolvable -- after all, parsers do understand
> pronouns such as it, them or him, and it's a similar case -- but it's a
> problem which seems difficult and doesn't exist in first and second
> person narrative IF.
The player doesn't have to type commands in the 3rd person : the
infinitive is enough.
Jim Aikin
> Le Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:08:55 -0800, Eriorg a écrit :
>
>> guess it, but it won't be very clear.) But if we answer every single
>> time with the name of the character, even when "he" would do in context,
>> it may become tiresome: imagine "Nebuchadrezzar did this.",
>> "Nebuchadrezzar did that.", etc. in every answer from the game...
>
> not necessary. The author can mix sentences using the player's name and
> he or she. For the automatic answers, most of them are not related to the
> player : "it's fixed in place" etc
You're ignoring the problem of pronoun antecedents. This is not trivial.
If the player character is "he" and is, at a particular point in the
game, talking to or even in the same room as an NPC who is also a "he",
the sentence "He picks up the sword" becomes utterly ambiguous. So the
parser would have (somehow) to figure out whether there was another "he"
in the vicinity and then swap in the name of the PC -- but only when it
was necessary to do so in order to eliminate the ambiguity.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that attention to this
kind of detail is essential if you're going to attempt a 3rd-person game
with NPCs.
--JA
Conrad
> On 23 jan, 22:21, Conrad <conradc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jim Aikin <midigur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > That's the sort of message that absolutely needs to be rewritten in a
> > > first-person game -- something like, "The word 'xxxx' is not necessary
> > > in this story," would do nicely. It's a simple customization in a
> > > conceptual sense, but it has to be carried out for every parser message.
>
> > > Really, though ... why is the parser _ever_ "I"? That makes no sense.
>
> > Because the parser is the storyteller.
>
> It's not that easy. For a storyteller it's awkward to tell a story in
> first person, unless it happened to the storyteller him/herself. The
> parser is (normally) not part of the story, and would have a hard time
> telling a story from first person perspective.
Yesterday, Frank went to the store. He bought eggs, milk, asparagus,
and a pack of Winstons for his grandfather, who isn't supposed to
smoke. I tell you this to make a point.
Conrad.
Ron Newcomb
> If the player character is "he" and is, at a particular point in the
> game, talking to or even in the same room as an NPC who is also a "he",
> the sentence "He picks up the sword" becomes utterly ambiguous. So the
I had the exact [opposite] problem reading a recent second-person
novel. It had three viewpoint characters, so I frequently couldn't
tell (or remember) who "you said" referred to.
I guess the lesson learned is, "second person doesn't mix well with
multiple viewpoints, regardless of media."
-R
Eriorg
> Eric Forgeot wrote:
> > Le Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:08:55 -0800, Eriorg a écrit :
>
> >> guess it, but it won't be very clear.) But if we answer every single
> >> time with the name of the character, even when "he" would do in context,
> >> it may become tiresome: imagine "Nebuchadrezzar did this.",
> >> "Nebuchadrezzar did that.", etc. in every answer from the game...
>
> > not necessary. The author can mix sentences using the player's name and
> > he or she. For the automatic answers, most of them are not related to the
> > player : "it's fixed in place" etc
>
> game, talking to or even in the same room as an NPC who is also a "he",
> the sentence "He picks up the sword" becomes utterly ambiguous. So the
> in the vicinity and then swap in the name of the PC -- but only when it
> was necessary to do so in order to eliminate the ambiguity.
>
> I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that attention to this
> kind of detail is essential if you're going to attempt a 3rd-person game
> with NPCs.
>
> --JA
Jim Aikin understood very well what I meant, here.
I wrote my previous message because I had that problem with your [Eric
Forgeot's] game: most of the time it worked fine, but sometimes I
wondered, "He? Who, he?" when there was another man -- or even when
the text had mentioned neither "he" nor the name of the main character
for a long time.
I'm not saying it was a big problem! It never took me long to
understand, and anyway, I got used to it. But it did happen.
On 24 jan, 19:47, Eric Forgeot <contact_is_on_websi...@anamnese.fr.st>
wrote:
I wasn't talking about that; there are indeed no problems with the
third person and the parser, you're right. I only mentioned parsers
because the problem they have to solve about pronoun antecedents is a
bit similar.
Andrew Plotkin
I assume you mean _Halting State_, and I thought the author did a
tolerable job of giving each character a distinct voice.
We know that a story with multiple "I" viewpoints is tricky to handle;
again, the author has to take care to make the sections distinct. This
looks like the same situation to me.
I will advance the theory that first-person and second-person prose
have similar challenges and similar solutions. (From a purely
writing-technique point of view.) What you can do with one you can do
with the other.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't thrown you in military prison without trial,
it's for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're an American.
Michael Lodge
>> I guess the lesson learned is, "second person doesn't mix well with
>> multiple viewpoints, regardless of media."
>
>
> I will advance the theory that first-person and second-person prose
> have similar challenges and similar solutions. (From a purely
> writing-technique point of view.) What you can do with one you can do
> with the other.
>
I think it's worth noting that second person isn't peculiar to IF, but
seems to be the most common method of interacting with any genre of
computer game. Third person in an interactive medium seems foreign to me.
If I'm playing an FPS, I might say something like "I opened the door and
blasted the rat with big teeth, but the guy with big ears came and got
me from behind". Even in a game that provides a detailed identity for
the protagonist, I will still refer to the character as if it was me. So
if I am the character, the the game should refer to me in the second
person. It seems to be the most natural method of interacting with a game.
Even if the game is one with a plot more complex than 'Shoot all of the
enemies', I will still refer to the character as if it is me.
A standard novel is a different case. When reading a novel, I'm peering
into someone else's life, real or imagined. I can associate with the
character, I can see what they are thinking and sympathise with them (or
not, as the case may be). In IF, and in most computer games, I am
controlling someone else's life. The interactivity makes a big difference.
Talking about a character I am controlling in the third person seems to
force me to take a step back from the character, passively peering into
them rather than taking control. This doesn't seem like something to aim
for.
Even if you don't agree with Graham Nelson's "A narrative at war with a
crossword", I think that it's obvious that IF is generally a narrative
at war with something. Otherwise, we would simply be reading and writing
static fiction.
Now, after all that waffle, back to the topic:
First person gaming could be interesting, but I don't get how it would
work. Simply referring to the protagonist as 'I' seems to be to be
creating the impression that they are relating events that have already
happened. This creates a very different feel to the more common second
person, and I would want to know who I am talking to. You could cover
this in the introduction, of course, but then wouldn't that just be the
third person relating an event? I don't know it just doesn't feel right.
In summary, if you feel that you can make either the first or third
person work, then by all means implement it, but don't forget that there
generally is a reason why the common case is common. Break the rules
once you understand why they are there, but be warned that doing so may
alienate some of your audience.
Breaking the rules for the sake of doing so can be very interesting, and
can produce many unexpected results, but this suitable for a 'working
prototype'. Prototypes may be interesting, but I don't think have the
same depth of appeal as a carefully constructed product. Once you have
completed your trial, then you can take what you have learned and apply
the rules you have chosen with a better understanding of the possible
results.
Sorry if this has gone on a bit. I don't post very often, and when I do,
I seem to struggle with knowing when to just stop and hit 'Send'.
joha...@gmail.com
> In summary, if you feel that you can make either the first or third
> person work, then by all means implement it, but don't forget that there
> generally is a reason why the common case is common. Break the rules
> once you understand why they are there, but be warned that doing so may
> alienate some of your audience.
The normal reason for common case is just an history reason, not more.
Breaking the rules are the only way to improve, so if anyone feels
that need
to break the rule she/he should break the rules, in so many small
pieces as she/he
can.
I feel a basic principle of any kind of Art is: 'Take the rules, study
them as deeper
as you can, then throw the rules through the nearest window as further
as you can.'
[...]
I like to write interactive fiction in fist person seldom. I just
can't see a interactive fiction
like some kind of 'game' no more, so you don't need to be the main
character at all,
not even is needed to be explain who are you in respect of the main
character; in the
same way nobody explains to you the relation between readers and
history in a
traditional novel.
My last title 'Hierba tras el cristal' is a first person interactive
fiction in spanish, and
has won the III Spanish Minicomp. It liked to most of people in
spanish i-f groups
and nobody have been feeled 'strange' about the verbal person i used.
The story of
'Hierba tras el cristal' really NEED the first person, so i did it so.
Perhaps in
english that kind of change are different... more... strange, i don't
know. But i think
that the authors should have full freedom for their works.
Authors forget the rules! Or even better, destroy them in very little
and shiny pieces!
Finally, sorry my really awful english, that is the reason i dont even
think about do
some i-f in english or try to translate any of them.
Ron Newcomb
> I assume you mean _Halting State_
I did.
> I will advance the theory that first-person and second-person prose
> have similar challenges and similar solutions. (From a purely
> writing-technique point of view.)
This sounds sensible; I'm not familiar with any multiple-first-person
works. How do they mitigate confusion?
-Ron
Andrew Plotkin
Careful use of character voice. Also chapter headers, but that's not
sufficient (unless maybe all your chapters are one page long!)
Setting and environment can also help -- if one character is chopping
through a jungle and the other is steering a starship, you can give
lots of fast cues -- but unless you have a very odd story, the
characters are going to meet up eventually.
Now that you ask, I have trouble listing examples. Even though I must
have read dozens of them. _Godbody_ by Ted Sturgeon. Sarah Monette's
fantasy series (Melusine, The Virtu, The Mirador, fourth book
forthcoming.) Epistolary novels.
Googling around, I find a post by Carol Berg on the subject:
(I've read her books too.)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't subjected you to searches without a warrant,
it's for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're innocent.