Textfyre - Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter Go On Sale This Month
David C.
You are an intrepid fourteen year old orphan, known simply as "Jack", and
you're quietly moving through the crowds of Grubber's Market in the town of
Toresal in the northern parts of the island continent of Miradania.
You think about meeting up with your best friend Bobby, about hanging around
Teisha's silk tent, or harassing the local merchants in whatever way suits
you. But you're hungry at the moment and although Baron Fossville has taken
a dim view of most thieving, it isn't going to stop you from eating.
You "lift" an apple from a fruit stand, saunter to your favorite corner in a
nearby alley and are about to take a bite when suddenly there are a group of
mercenaries chatting nearby.
The leader is talking about finding an orphan and goes on to describe
someone that looks frighteningly exactly like the person staring back at you
in the puddle on the ground. You scramble up onto the market rooftop to
listen in on their plans...
***************************************************
This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
purchase and download Secret Letter from our website at
http://www.textfyre.com. We're accepting PayPal and Google Checkout as
payment.
Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter was initially conceived by David
Cornelson, then designed and written by Michael Gentry of Anchorhead fame.
The game engine, FyreVM, was developed by Jesse McGrew and based on the
Glulx virtual machine specification developed by Andrew Plotkin. The game
was written in Inform 7, a tool lovingly developed by Graham Nelson and
Emily Short, with the help and support of many others. Graeme Jefferis gets
the credit for writing the I7 code and doing a wonderful job. The game was
faithfully tested by Jacqueline Ashwell, Eric Eve, Peter Berman, Paul O'Brian,
and Jim Aikin. We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
copyrighting contributions. The user interface was developed by Thomas
Lynge, a friend of the IF community. The map was hand drawn by Jennifer
Montes. Of course the IF Community has played a large part in Textfyre's
creation and we're grateful for their support.
We hope you enjoy our games and tell your friends about them.
Sincerely,
David A. Cornelson, President
Textfyre, Inc.
peter...@hotmail.com
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> You are an intrepid fourteen year old orphan, known simply as "Jack", and
> you're quietly moving through the crowds of Grubber's Market in the town of
> Toresal in the northern parts of the island continent of Miradania.
>
> You think about meeting up with your best friend Bobby, about hanging around
> Teisha's silk tent, or harassing the local merchants in whatever way suits
> you. But you're hungry at the moment and although Baron Fossville has taken
> a dim view of most thieving, it isn't going to stop you from eating.
>
> You "lift" an apple from a fruit stand, saunter to your favorite corner in a
> nearby alley and are about to take a bite when suddenly there are a group of
> mercenaries chatting nearby.
>
> The leader is talking about finding an orphan and goes on to describe
> someone that looks frighteningly exactly like the person staring back at you
> in the puddle on the ground. You scramble up onto the market rooftop to
> listen in on their plans...
>
> ***************************************************
>
> This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> payment.
>
> Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter was initially conceived by David
> Cornelson, then designed and written by Michael Gentry of Anchorhead fame.
> The game engine, FyreVM, was developed by Jesse McGrew and based on the
> Glulx virtual machine specification developed by Andrew Plotkin. The game
> was written in Inform 7, a tool lovingly developed by Graham Nelson and
> Emily Short, with the help and support of many others. Graeme Jefferis gets
> the credit for writing the I7 code and doing a wonderful job. The game was
> faithfully tested by Jacqueline Ashwell, Eric Eve, Peter Berman, Paul O'Brian,
> and Jim Aikin. We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> copyrighting contributions. The user interface was developed by Thomas
> Lynge, a friend of the IF community. The map was hand drawn by Jennifer
> Montes. Of course the IF Community has played a large part in Textfyre's
> creation and we're grateful for their support.
>
> We hope you enjoy our games and tell your friends about them.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
I wanted to buy it as soon as it came along... but I was hoping for a
price about 8 dollars cheaper, so I'll put it off for a month or two.
Still, I'll be sure to. If it's a download, I assume it doesn't
include feelies, the only thing which saddens me. Now release the
thing so we can play it! :D
Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
for you, your team and your company!
peter...@hotmail.com
In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
you have animations)...
...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
price-tag, right?
James Jolley
Agreed. It's overly expensive. Waits for Howard Sherman to come along.
The battle of the implementors!
Best
-James-
S. John Ross
> include feelies, the only thing which saddens me.
Hopefully some digital home-printable feelies, though (surely?).
If it gets reviews that excite me, I'll probably buy a copy pretty
quickly (I don't mind pricey if it delivers in terms of feelies, hours
of awesome gameplay, feelies, good writing and feelies - and by this I
mean digital feelies that I can print first, feel later).
I just fancy the idea of having a new text adventure that I feel
obligated to finish because I paid for it. Maybe that sounds strange,
but that's the main appeal to me right now, along with the digi-
feelies (it's got em, right?)
markm
> We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> copyrighting contributions.
I'm guessing Rob didn't copywrite this message :-)
S. John Ross
> > We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> > copyrighting contributions.
>
> I'm guessing Rob didn't copywrite this message :-)
Maybe he was consulted as an IP lawyer :)
S. John Ross
* The website specifies that "Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter" is
the first of the "Miradania Series." Does that mean this is the first
chapter of an epic story, a self-contained story set in the same world
(Miradania, I presume) in which other, also self-contained stories
will be presented, or a mostly-self-contained story which sets up
sequels following the later adventures of Jack Toresal?
* Will there be some sort of trial version available?
Parham Doustdar
used to it by going to mallinch.net every day and checking to see if they
are giving it to anyone for free. :-)
--
---
Contact info:
Skype: parham-d
MSN: fire_lizard16 at hotmail dot com
email: parham90 at GMail dot com
<peter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:58ac025b-fbaf-44f8...@e20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
David C.
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
I'll put together an FAQ page on the website to answer questions.
Thanks for the feedback.
David C.
Al
>
> This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> purchase and download Secret Letter from our website athttp://www.textfyre.com.
We're accepting PayPal and Google Checkout as payment.
What about those of us with no debt and NO credit cards. Is there a
way to
purchase by snail mail?
Jesse McGrew
I can't speak for whether Dave has something else in mind, but in
general you always have other options to buy something online:
If you have a checking account, it probably came with a Visa/MC debit
card, which you can use anywhere that accepts Visa/MC. PayPal can also
accept payments directly from your bank account.
Or you can go to a retail location (grocery store, credit union) and
pick up a Visa gift card. Some of them are even reloadable, so you can
go back and keep adding value to them with cash.
vw
John Smith
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Jobs
Angel Investor
We are seeking one or more accredited investors to help us launch the
company later this year. Your funds will be used to hire content creators,
management, marketing consultants, and pay for advertising including a new
professional website. Your business expertise and advice will also be very
welcome.
So investor is an actual job position in your company? I can see why you
need a new website.
James Jolley
<parham90...@gmail.com> said:
> Aw, another IF I can't play because of payment issues. Oh well. I've got
> used to it by going to mallinch.net every day and checking to see if they
> are giving it to anyone for free. :-)
Interesting that, wonder why you're like this? Typical blind twat then
wanting things for free?
James Jolley
Although it seems expensive, not knowing what's included we can't say
how valuable the program is. I'm guessing the interface took a lot of
work. It'd be good to try the product first.
Ron Newcomb
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Congratulations to you and all the team, Dave!
ou...@gmx.de
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
> Textfyre, Inc.
Great news! Congratulations, Mr Cornelson! I lurked your blog for over
a year and almost gave up hope.
Will you bring out a boxed version soon? It will be great to see IF
games on the market again. Complete with feelies, box, feelies,
manual, and some feelies. Errr, apart from that Malinche stuff. I hope
you will accept orders from Europe.
Best wishes,
Oliver U.
Heiko Nock
peter...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
>> for you, your team and your company!
> In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> you have animations)...
That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
> ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> price-tag, right?
You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
first place.
What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
--
"Die 'ordentlichen Gerichte' (gibt's auch Unordentliche?) reden sich
prinzipiell mit der Gesetzeslage heraus. 'Geltendes Recht', das ist der
bequemste Vorwand zum Verstecken der eigenen Entscheidungsschw�che."
-- Lars Gebauer kl�rt de.soc.recht.datennetze auf
peter...@hotmail.com
rec.games. Please forgive the doubled posts, people who're following
it on both sides.
***
> peter_pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
> >> for you, your team and your company!
> > In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> > Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> > Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> > stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> > game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> > you have animations)...
> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that Wadjet Eye
Games, which I took because it's a random indie house which I *know*
to put out quality titles, has a price-tag of about 10-15 bucks. I'm
saying that, on a first glance, Wadjet Eye charges that for games
which have good quality graphics and animations, very good writing,
high quality voice acting, great soundtracks, maybe lacking sometimes
on gameplay in detriment to story but overall well worth the money and
more. Whereas Textfyre's first game is around 25 bucks for a text game
which I'm sure doesn't have voice acting, has very nice still
pictures, I doubt has animation, and I don't know whether it has a
soundtrack, but I'm guessing it doesn't.
And here's when you put words in my mouth: when you say that's like
saying a movie is always better than a book. I'm not talking about
quality. I'm talking about price. There's certainly many more people
involved in making a film than writing a book. And then hardbacks are
costier than paperbacks. Then again, just the other day I bought a
complete collection of Sherlock Holmes' stories and novels by 10
euros. And today I passed up on a collection of Tintin in original
language because, you know, I just don't have those 96 euros. The
difference in prices, among other factors, is because Tintin is full
of images - it's a comic, whereas Holmes is all text. On a similar
vein, I can understand Wadjet Eye charging more than Textfyre, for
instance. But not the reverse. Not when it comes to open up my wallet.
> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> > price-tag, right?
> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
> first place.
Wow. So people who care about IF have money growing out of their ears.
Such a corolary.
Not to mention the subtext: "There's no point in drawing new people to
IF".
> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
And Textfyre isn't? There are commercial graphic adventure games, you
know. Text adventures, now... only Malinche, who has a dreadful
reputation. This 25-bucks-game is competing with the free games
Anchorhead, Babel, Photopia, the whole Infocom and Magnetic Scrolls
and Level 9 games not for sale but available for those who care enough
to look, Blue Lacuna, Make it Good... no point in listing them all,
huh?
At any rate, I'll keep this discussion going if you want to, but David
C. didn't answer my point. Either he has thought about these issues
and doesn0t want to discuss them right now, or he'll talk about it in
his blog or in his FAQ, or he'll disregard it completely. Whichever's
the case, he knows my opinion, which was my point - *not* to start a
possibly flamey discussion and hijack the thread, but to let him know
I thought it was a bit overpriced, especially without feelies. My
overall opinion is still "Great to see good IF sold again, I'll buy it
when I can!".
S. John Ross
> And Textfyre isn't? There are commercial graphic adventure games, you
> know. Text adventures, now... only Malinche, who has a dreadful
> reputation.
Hey now! I also have a dreadful reputation!
peter...@hotmail.com
You don't count, on account of you releasing your game as freeware in
a couple years time. :) Plus, you're the exact opposite of Malinche.
Malinche overhypes his crappy games, and you hugely underrate your
game but fail to mention all the glowing reviews it's had.
I like it. Reverse psychology to the max.
Mind you, I've been wondering - you mentioned you were planning to add
graphics to your game at the time of its freeware release, so as to
commemorate. Isn't that discouraging for potential buyers? I used to
want to buy it, but I'm certainly not going to if I learn I'll get an
illustrated version for free in a couple years' time.
S. John Ross
> a couple years time. :)
Well, that's fair :)
> Plus, you're the exact opposite of Malinche.
> Malinche overhypes his crappy games, and you hugely underrate your
> game but fail to mention all the glowing reviews it's had.
Not at all; the website quotes all the reviews I'm aware of, with the
exception of a blog entry on Gunwar (which isn't really a review, per
se) and that time Emily used it as an example of encouraging eager
complicity in "non-winning" behavior (which wasn't a review either,
though she said nice things).
> I like it. Reverse psychology to the max.
When the game goes freeware, the reverse will be reversed. I hope that
won't ruin it for you :)
> Mind you, I've been wondering - you mentioned you were planning to add
> graphics to your game at the time of its freeware release, so as to
> commemorate.
That is at least my vague if-things-work-out intention, yes. It'd be
overstating it to call it "planning," though :) It is my hope, but it
will depend on (A) how interested the E.C. fans are in pitching in
with sufficiently crappy ballpoint ink drawings and (B) the state of
I7, Glulx/e, and my comfort level relative thereto, or better grammar
to that effect.
> Isn't that discouraging for potential buyers?
I like to think that, as far as IF enthusiasts go, *absolutely
everything about it* is discouraging to buyers, but beyond that hope I
don't really keep track. Looking back, if i could change anything
about it, I'd add a dragon, living in my apartment, just to make it
two degrees less appealing to IF enthusiasts.
> I used to
> want to buy it, but I'm certainly not going to if I learn I'll get an
> illustrated version for free in a couple years' time.
Free in a couple of years, guaranteed. Illustrated ... hopefully!
Maybe. Eventually, probably. Though we should bear in mind that it's
an E.C. tie-in, and look at E.C. itself to see what "illustrated"
means ;)
Also, when the game goes freeware, a new commercial item will be made
available as well (non-essential, but groovy) so that people can still
choose to throw money at it if they happen to swing that way (I try
not to judge).
Conrad
>
> Congratulations to you and all the team, Dave!
Hear, hear!
C.
Adam Thornton
>everything about it* is discouraging to buyers, but beyond that hope I
>don't really keep track. Looking back, if i could change anything
>about it, I'd add a dragon, living in my apartment, just to make it
>two degrees less appealing to IF enthusiasts.
Well, I *did* buy it, and if it had had a dragon, I might have had to
pirate it just on general principles.
Adam
rpgs rock dvds
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> payment.
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Say after a period of 12 months, if you created a pie chart of your
customers, what would it look like? For instance, on a sales chart,
what would the pie slice size be for customers who have seen your
messages on r.a.i.f? Would the largest pie slice be from the
education sector?
How will you handle tech support? Will you include a 'community
forum' on your website for this?
Good luck, hope it goes well.
Ice Cream Jonsey
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> Mona
I have a knock-off IBM PCjr that was recently rescued out of a trailer
park eviction, where it lived with 300 cats, the Wonder Twin that can
only turn into water and a giant electromagnet. I also think it's got
bad ROM. Will the game work with this??? I'm going to be furious until
told otherwise, but afterwards I will only be able to communicate in
spittle. nnnnghhhhhhh!
Hans Friar
> Jobs
>
> Angel Investor
> We are seeking one or more accredited investors to help us launch the
> company later this year. Your funds will be used to hire content
> creators, management, marketing consultants, and pay for advertising
> including a new professional website. Your business expertise and
> advice will also be very welcome.
>
> So investor is an actual job position in your company? I can see why
> you need a new website.
You must not read the Textfyre blog religiously. If you did you would see
the pattern. The pathos is the pretension that this is a Professional
Business run by a Professional Business Man. Analyzing and researching the
business realities with open eyes and a clear mind. Look at the posts from
two or three years ago about the Team Process that would create an IF
assembly line to stamp out games like so many widgets. An amazing Process
indeed that allows ten professionals (is unpaid professional an oxymoron?)
to produce two games in just three years. The poor amateur working alone
might create only two games in this time. Perhaps ISO 9001 certification
will help. It is small consolation that the games do look like something a
corporation would create, blatant Harry Potter ripoffs with all the
inspiration of fanfic by committee.
Read also about the extensive Market Research and Investor Networking. The
sad pattern repeats itself. A Professional Business Man with open eyes and
a clear mind would not miss the most glaring recommendation of any market
study, Be in any business other than Text Adventures, any business at all.
Over and over we see reports of promising investor meetings, but always in
the future. The delusion is most obvious in the post about the television
executive who mentioned his nostalgia for Zork in an interview. Have your
people call my people, Dave.
Conrad
Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
the profile of interactive fiction. Which most people currently have
never heard of. And some of those people would make dedicated players
and writers.
C.
James Jolley
IF is IF. I don't see what raising the profile will actually achieve.
It'd be nice obviously, but a text game is a text game. Many people
just want games with graphics and that's how it is really. We can't
expect the world to love IF as much as we like it.
Andrew Plotkin
> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
> Textfyre starting up
We have? From who?
...Let's take it for granted that Jacek is not jealous of anybody,
merely happy to have a new topic.
> I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested in Chicago Dave
> being commercially successful, since it would raise the profile of
> interactive fiction.
Well, I am. I thought that was obvious.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
James Jolley
> In rec.arts.int-fiction, Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
>> Textfyre starting up
>
> We have? From who?
>
> ...Let's take it for granted that Jacek is not jealous of anybody,
> merely happy to have a new topic.
>
>> I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested in Chicago Dave
>> being commercially successful, since it would raise the profile of
>> interactive fiction.
>
> Well, I am. I thought that was obvious.
>
> --Z
I think he wants us to jump up and down or do the splits perhaps. Not
sure really. I'm happy for dave, just not prepared to pay the price
he's asking. As has been pointed out by others, he's aiming his works
at a different market and mine's not it. Tough.
Conrad
>
> I think he wants us to jump up and down or do the splits perhaps. Not
> sure really. I'm happy for dave, just not prepared to pay the price
> he's asking. As has been pointed out by others, he's aiming his works
> at a different market and mine's not it. Tough.
That post wasn't meant as a criticism of you, James.
Maybe I'm misreading the general vibe. It's been known to happen. It
does seem that at least some of the posts have been hoping for the
worst for Dave's enterprise. But my larger point is that, by
promoting his own text games, Dave will inevitably be promoting
interactive fiction. People will hear about it through him.
Conrad
Jim Aikin
> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
> Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
> in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
> the profile of interactive fiction.
I'm _very_ interested in that. I hope he's enormously successful,
becomes filthy rich, and offers me a contract to write a new game for
commercial distribution.
I've been avoiding this thread, but I suspect most of the carping is
coming from Jacek Pudlo (posting under one name or another).
There may also be a faction that feels IF should be free-free-free.
Don't get me wrong; I'm all in favor of free stuff! I just downloaded
GIMP and Ren'Py, so you won't catch me complaining about free. But the
existence of GIMP does _not_ mean that Adobe is a bunch of slime-sucking
cretins because they want money for Photoshop. They pay their
programmers, and the money has to come from somewhere!
There's room for both distribution models in the world, and it's
entirely up to you whether to choose to support freeware or
commercialware, or both.
--JA
Adam Thornton
>Conrad wrote:
>> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
>> Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
>> in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
>> the profile of interactive fiction.
>
>I'm _very_ interested in that. I hope he's enormously successful,
>becomes filthy rich, and offers me a contract to write a new game for
>commercial distribution.
Me too.
I have never felt that Textfyre was a *good* bet from a commercial
standpoint, but I would dearly love to be wrong. Although I don't
really want a contract for a game--I have too much work in my day job to
try to write anything towards a deadline, and I'm SURE he can't pay
quit-my-day-job enough. But I do hope that he strikes it rich.
Adam
Conrad
>
> IF is IF. I don't see what raising the profile will actually achieve.
> It'd be nice obviously, but a text game is a text game. Many people
> just want games with graphics and that's how it is really. We can't
> expect the world to love IF as much as we like it.
Well, I was on-and-off wishing there were text games, and wishing I
had the programming smarts to write one myself, for a good ten or
fifteen years. And I'd talk about it with people.
Finally, I mentioned it to someone who mentioned it to someone who had
heard about Inform 7.
But that's ten years I lost out on. And I have no doubt there are
others like me, who'd like to get into text games, but have no idea
they're still around; and still others who have had no exposure to
them, but would enjoy them once they tried them.
How'd you guys first find out about r*if and the text game community?
Word of mouth? I expect there's more IF enthusiasts who don't know
about us than that know about us.
I say, better than nay-saying Dave, better than the sad head-shaking,
we'd do better to start telling people about his cool new game.
Conrad.
Peter Pears
> Word of mouth? I expect there's more IF enthusiasts who don't know
> about us than that know about us.
>
> I say, better than nay-saying Dave, better than the sad head-shaking,
> we'd do better to start telling people about his cool new game.
>
> Conrad.
In which case, Textfyre's bet on children-aimed products might be the
best way to go. Teenagers are less likely to play IF - for many
reasons (not the least of them being "look cool around my friends"),
they are more likely to play FPSs, RPGs and MMO games. Sometimes
purely strategical games, maybe. The average teen doesn't even care
much for adventure games, though thankfully those are still being
churned out (varying degrees of success, yeah, but still). And adults
who do know about IF... well, there's a huge chance that, if they
still care about it at all, they'll have wondered into the ifarchive
*at least* by now.
So in this light, it does seem obvious that the way to go is to
present it to the younger market. Hey, I've seen a 4 year old chide
his 9 year old brother for being a bore at a piano recital. The
brothen kept going "This is a bore!", and the younger kid kept going
"You're the bore! Shut up!". And you could tell it wasn't just
brotherly automatic contradiction, he was seriously muffled at his
older brother's reaction. That reminded me of something I'd forgot -
teenagers, or pre-teenagers, have their tastes defined by social
interaction as much as their actual tastes. They may even learn to
dislike something just for the social interaction it may gain them.
But if you go earlier - just a bit earlier, or maybe even simultaneous
- then you can actually catch them while their interests are still
honest.
My point: the IF's community is getting old. This might bring in the
new players. The genre has done remarkably well, and the IF
development tools have helped it span a second generation of IFers -
but that's second generation is relatively small, and very divided,
which is good for development but not much so for newcomers wanting to
try out the genre and finding numerous games made with different
interpreters needing different VMs, or with different rules or design.
A newcomer playing Zork might well be turned off IF for life, if that
newcomer doesn't like the cruelty and assumes all IF will be like
that. If we don't start catering to the next generation, then IF might
well be unjustly condoned and left to rot as "that old boring stuff
our dads and grandpas used to play before they had 3D cards".
I hope I made sense, it's getting late and I really have to go to bed.
Just for the record, in case my posts about the price left any doubts
on the matter: I heartily approve this enterprise, and have myself
already purchased my (discounted) pre-order of both games. I just wish
it had feelies! :D
And PS - as regards true newcomers of a more mature age, I have found
indeed that many non-typical-gamers are very attracted to the idea,
whereas gamers don't much care for it. Hey, my girlfriend is barely a
gamer, being a Tomb Raider-Sims-Pharaoh-Caesar exclusive, but that was
enough experience with these alternate genres not to care much for IF.
Different mindsets, I suppose - and people with that mindset don't
play much, because they haven't found their genre yet. As for me, I've
tried to convert a few, but in my case the language barrier's an issue
- I'd need a Portuguese extension for I7, or something of the sort.
S. John Ross
> And adults
> who do know about IF... well, there's a huge chance that, if they
> still care about it at all, they'll have wondered into the ifarchive
> *at least* by now.
That might not have went well if it happened before the ifarchive went
and got speedy. These days the archive is kickass, but on at least
three occasions prior to me finally settling in to taking an interest
in the modern state of IF, I remember _attempting_ to wander into the
archive and being rebuffed by 150-second-per-page loading times :
( [well, maybe not 150 but it sure felt like it, so I bailed, forgot
it for a year or whatever, came back, same thing happened ...] I had
been inspired to try by various specific events (including buying one
of the Activision collections).
No longer an issue (and even less so with groovy stuff like IFDB to be
found), but I do wonder if there were other folks, more-or-less in my
situation, who _didn't_ bother coming back the fourth time.
Dan Sanderson
> ...
> But if you go earlier - just a bit earlier, or maybe even simultaneous
> - then you can actually catch them while their interests are still
> honest.
FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
drawing the map for Lost Pig). I'll write it myself if I have to. We
even started writing a game together in I7, but I'm still new at it and
she got bored waiting for me to read the docs.
My 3-year-old had lots of ideas for getting the piece of paper from the
crack, though not many that would work in the game.
-- Dan
Emily Boegheim
> FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
> Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
> IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
> drawing the map for Lost Pig).
Try The Sleeping Princess:
http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=bxio01ferbyxr4rk
It's a polished, enjoyable game, and it was written specifically for
kids, so the language and puzzles are simple.
You might also want to have a look at this IFDB poll, "Games suitable for
children":
http://ifdb.tads.org/poll?id=z9shyw6mdia3jdud
Emily
S. John Ross
> FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
> Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
> IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
> drawing the map for Lost Pig).
Stott's "Dragon Adventure" is a hoot and a half ... it's aimed at
slightly older kids (9+), but if yours is precocious she might be able
to handle it just fine on her own.
There's a long texty intro that I wish I could get my hands on to trim
it down, but apart from that it's super kid-friendly, and has some
great imagery and fun scenes (like the insane bicycle ride ...)
And yeah, like Emily Boegheim said ... IFDB poll, good :)
James Jolley
In theory, but I wonder how many people will play other works. It's
similar to how casual gamers work. They play the odd one and that's it.
IF is fine as it is anyway, we have a good community, brilliant
creation tools and new people are coming around all the time.
James Jolley
I first found IF when I was a kid in school. Zork was my first game and
I actually found it the most irritating waste of time even then. I
played about with a few infocom ones at that time, liked a few,
disliked many of them because of the lack of real plot. Then I left IF
for a bit, got into video gaming, still am into that but decided to
look around at the tools to write my own. Went to uni, got into IF
again there because I got my first windows computer at that time.
Peter Pears
That's the thing about IF, though. In general (the exception being
some SpeedIF games), an IF game isn't a casual game, and it takes
getting into. That's why IF isn't much good in the "casual gamers"
department - unless it manages to evolve into a non-casual experience
after a casual acquaintance, it just won't work. It consumes too much
brainpower in the head of a person who just wants a quick distraction.
Hopefully, the possibilities of IF will bring a gamer back, just like
you can start browsing in a bookstore, find yourself turning pages at
a fast pace, buy the book, and them come back for more of the same
author.
But yeah, it's just theory. :)
James Jolley
Good post, agree with it entirely. Is it now time for flags to be
waved? Hey, perhaps if you called me James instead of Jolley now and
again we'd get on better. Seriously, good post. i'm interested now in
how others will view what you've said regarding getting people into IF.
From my view, we have a lot of good story-based IF and that's a start.
When Emily finally releases her conversation system, i'd like to do
something with that. Like you said, people will find they're own style
of IF that they like.
Best
-James
James Jolley
I see you're points. I'm guessing that much of the conversational IF
will be alright for casuals though. I know my partner doesn't like IF
at all, she'd rather muck about on playstation home and play the
bowling and pool on that. Each to there own i guess.
Otto Grimwald
> I have never felt that Textfyre was a *good* bet from a commercial
> standpoint, but I would dearly love to be wrong. Although I don't
/.../
> quit-my-day-job enough. But I do hope that he strikes it rich.
me too, so he could maybe hire someone to make it truely multiplateform,
including handhelds and such.
Richard Bos
Yeah, but how many people do _that_? Look at your neighbours: how many
of them have read more than one book by Joyce? Stross? Van Gulik? Good
literature, including good genre literature, simply _is not popular_,
and my theory is that the reason is the very same one you describe
above: it takes too much brainspace. Dan Brown and J.K. Rowling, yes,
they sell. The reason is obvious.
Richard
Conrad
Very often, famous writers were in their day immensely popular.
Dickens, for example, who I usually can't stand, really had the
English-speaking world hooked on his series. These days, we find him
too preachy, and too difficult to read; but in his time, people went
to church far more often, and apparently enjoyed the sermonizing,
because it affirmed what they knew was true. Also, he would be read
aloud to the family, usually by the father, and therefore the long
winding sentences that we have trouble plowing through silently were
part of the special effects by which he enraptured audiences.
And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
so on. So there is interpretive brain-work going on; it's just within
the fictive fantasy rather than about its mode of delivery.
For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
to the dictionary if you want to go.
(An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
Conrad.
ps - Although, if anyone asks, the reason _Lair of the CyberCow_
placed 28th out of 35 last year is because it was above you all.
Yeah.
Jerome West
> ps - Although, if anyone asks, the reason _Lair of the CyberCow_
> placed 28th out of 35 last year is because it was above you all.
> Yeah.
I must admit I have yet to try it. I could tell from the title it was
likely to be a little too high-brow for my simple tastes.
Peter Pears
Thankfully, in our case, we don't have to get them hooked to Short,
Plotkin, Reed, Aikin or Ingold - it's good enough that we spark the
interest of "reading". :)
Richard Bos
> On Jun 22, 8:11=A0am, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> > Yeah, but how many people do _that_? Look at your
> > neighbours: how many of them have read more than
> > one book by Joyce? Stross? Van Gulik? Good literature,
> > including good genre literature, simply _is not popular_,
> > and my theory is that the reason is the very same one
> > you describe above: it takes too much brainspace. Dan
> > Brown and J.K. Rowling, yes, they sell. The reason is
> > obvious.
>
> Very often, famous writers were in their day immensely popular.
> Dickens, for example, who I usually can't stand, really had the
> English-speaking world hooked on his series. These days, we find him
> too preachy, and too difficult to read; but in his time, people went
> to church far more often, and apparently enjoyed the sermonizing,
> because it affirmed what they knew was true.
I think the latter part is also important, at least in Dickens' case.
Yes, he was preachy; no, I can't stand him, either; but back then, what
he wrote _had_ to be written. We find him maudlin, for a good deal
because we can't imagine circumstances of small children being quite as
bad as he described them. But they were, and worse. In the factories, a
lot worse. And his book s got attention for their plight. That we
cannot, now, take his books seriously is for a not inconsiderable part
thanks to his own success.
> And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
> time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
> so on.
Do they? I've never seen much evidence of that.
> For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
> writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
> in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
> defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
> to the dictionary if you want to go.
True, but how many people, outside this newsgroup and any writing
classes you may have had, do you know who have read "Arthur Gordon Pym"?
(I haven't, but that's only because I've not found it in the bookshops
in this country.) Usually, it's The Raven, The Bells, Dr. Tarr and Prof.
Fether, one or two more of his macabrities, and that's it. I challenge
you to find a dozen among your ordinary neighbours and colleagues who
have even heard of Hans Pfaall.
> (An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
> she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
> Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
> was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
Good for her. But I bet you people like her are pretty rare.
Richard
Conrad
>
> I think the latter part is also important, at least in Dickens' case.
> Yes, he was preachy; no, I can't stand him, either; but back then, what
> he wrote _had_ to be written. We find him maudlin, for a good deal
> because we can't imagine circumstances of small children being quite as
> bad as he described them. But they were, and worse. In the factories, a
> lot worse. And his book s got attention for their plight. That we
> cannot, now, take his books seriously is for a not inconsiderable part
> thanks to his own success.
Could be. I know the cleanup of labor conditions during the
industrial revolution were attributed to the muckrakers; I don't know
how much Dickens is put in that category. (I thought he was
earlier.) But we also don't take him seriously because the villians
are ee-vil -- Snidely-Whiplash-evil -- and the good guys are sweet and
innocent and good, like the good that comes in lemon meringue pie.
Years of morally-ambiguous heros have trained us to make fine moral
distictions, and without fine moral distinctions to make that mental
equipment sits idling, getting bored.
> > And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
> > time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
> > so on.
>
> Do they? I've never seen much evidence of that.
Have you talked to them about it?
It's possible I just have smarter friends; but I think it's more
likely you refuse to talk to H.P. fans. But surely you remember the
detailed, nuanced conversations you had as a kid about the physics of
Star Trek, or Dr. Who time travel anti-paradoxes, or whatever you were
into. The nature of fandom doesn't change; a large part of what makes
these stories successful are their ability to capture and direct a
person's imagination. And a person's intelligence always works for
their imagination.
> > For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
> > writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
> > in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
> > defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
> > to the dictionary if you want to go.
>
> True, but how many people, outside this newsgroup and any writing
> classes you may have had, do you know who have read "Arthur Gordon Pym"?
> (I haven't, but that's only because I've not found it in the bookshops
> in this country.) Usually, it's The Raven, The Bells, Dr. Tarr and Prof.
> Fether, one or two more of his macabrities, and that's it. I challenge
> you to find a dozen among your ordinary neighbours and colleagues who
> have even heard of Hans Pfaall.
Now you're moving the goalpost. Certainly some of Poe's work will be
more popular than the rest; some of any writer's work is more popular
than the rest. Or any artist's work. That's statistics at work. It
doesn't mean people are unredeemably stupid, that the culture doesn't
value the artist or the medium, or that people no longer read.
And I haven't polled my friends about Pym, but I'd expect about half
or a third of them have read it. I have smart friends, almost
exclusively, and a proprotion of them are book-smart types. If you
want to read _Pym_, you can download it for free from Project
Gutenburg. The link is:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2149/2149-8.txt
...or you probably can get it from your local library.
> > (An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
> > she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
> > Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
> > was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
>
> Good for her. But I bet you people like her are pretty rare.
I'm inclined to agree, her being a dear friend of mine. But insofar
as she reads Wolfe and enjoys it -- well, there are enough such people
that he manages to stay in business.
In any case, I've been arguing on my blog that the success of bad pulp
writing should be seen as good news for IF, not bad. These writers
meet the minimal standards for writing and they feed the emotional
needs of their readers.
And those minimal standards, and that emotional logic, can be met by
formula. You can go beyond the formula if you want, but the formula
allows you to hit the minimal standards reliably. That's been true
for trashy romance novels and for science fiction; surely it can be
true for IF.
I agree with you, that IF with sparkly pictures and some sound effects
will have a better chance to hit bigger populations, because it raises
the apparent production value of the work. But the production value
has to overall meet the minimum standards; sparkly pictures will not
redeem a work with bad writing and poor grammar.
Conrad.
ps - for more about the "minimal standards" argument, go to --
http://onewetsneaker.wordpress.com/tag/pulp/
There's other stuff on there that's quasi-IF related, like an ebook
about writing murder mysteries that talks quite a bit about puzzley
writing that appeals to the intelligence. I may try to extract IF-
relevant techniques from that some time, but for now I just put the
ebook up.
C.
Conrad
> want to read _Pym_, you can download it for free from Project
> Gutenburg. The link is:
>
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2149/2149-8.txt
>
> ...or you probably can get it from your local library.
I guess the key word in your complain is "in this country," and I
don't know where you are. However, I Lulu-ized the Project Gutenburg
text, which means you can now buy a copy (if Lulu likes the country
you live in), for $8.78 + shipping. For me, shipping is 5.85, for a
$14.63 total, if I'm doing my math right.
(That's at cost. I don't make anything off this.)
http://www.lulu.com/content/7321256
If you can't get Lulu to ship it to you and you badly want a copy,
write me off-list and I'll set something up for you.
If you don't want a copy at all, and you just picked it as a
rhetorical example, that's cool too; I'm experimenting with Lulu
lately, and wanted to try making a public, orderable project, to see
how their system works.
Conrad.
S. John Ross
> ps - for more about the "minimal standards" argument, go to --
>
> http://onewetsneaker.wordpress.com/tag/pulp/
Hm. It's an interesting blog, but man, check out the snoot on that
snootiness.
Conrad
Too many lizards?
Andrew Plotkin
> I?m seriously angry with the company ?Textfyre? and companies that
> behave like them.
Sure you are.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Conrad
> people off from purchasing these type of games because they won't want
> to make the mistake of buying yet another "Jack Toresal and the secret
> letter."
Jacek, when was the last time you got laid or made money off trolling?
C.
S. John Ross
> [...] they won't want
> to make the mistake of buying yet another "Jack Toresal and the secret
> letter."
I really think the title's too long to become proverbial.
But shouldn't the bizarre fake rants against the game wait until
_after_ it's out?
S. John Ross
> Jacek, when was the last time you got laid or made money off trolling?
Whoever's responsible, they've also posted the same thing at IFDB
under a fresh sockpuppet account :(
S. John Ross
As long as you're reporting from the future, could you give us some
lotto results, or stock tips, or something useful?
> They are setting
> themselves up for a big fall. [...] they are shooting themselves in the foot.
If that turns out to be true, it'll be a self-correcting problem.
> [...] into the market without submitting it for review to give
> customers a chance to make an educated decision before parting with
> their money,
TextFyre guy has already said that there will be at least one demo
version, and maybe more.
Jesse McGrew
> lol, yes I have withdrawn my review and I am feeling sympathetic. Why?
Because it was an obvious fraud, and the comments on the review had
already pointed that out.
vw
S. John Ross
> > lol, yes I have withdrawn my review and I am feeling sympathetic. Why?
>
> Because it was an obvious fraud, and the comments on the review had
> already pointed that out.
If you taunt future man, you might NEVER get a rocket car! Dude.
S. John Ross
> I shan't let you drive MY rocket car until YOU make the game of your
> dreams.
Same thing I tell everyone: Fly From Evil will be done when it's done,
and the ONLY promise I'm making is that I won't hurry.
Richard Bos
> I=92m
...an anonymous troll.
You don't get a say until you get a spine.
Richard
Benjamin Caplan
> $25 can buy children a bookshelf of real books! Actual books that have
> real stories!
You either have a very small bookshelf or buy your children's books at
the public library's used-book sales.
Benjamin Caplan
>> They are setting
>> themselves up for a big fall. [...] they are shooting themselves in the foot.
>
> If that turns out to be true, it'll be a self-correcting problem.
Yes and no. The field of commercial IF is small enough that every
publication reflects on the whole field, for better or worse.
>> Furthermore, it is my opinion that when a company such as Textfyre,
>> sneaks a game into the market without submitting it for review to
>> give customers a chance to make an educated decision before parting
>> with their money,
>
> TextFyre guy has already said that there will be at least one demo
> version, and maybe more.
Which is more than most video game publishers do. Or did Anon ymous mean
"such as Textfyre" as an operative phrase, implying that, while most
companies need not submit to independent review before publication, a
company such as Textfyre does need to do so? If so, what is the
distinguishing feature of Textfyre? Just being new?
Anon ymous wrote:
> Drop the price to $5. $5
> isn't an amount that will sting the customer, and therefore will help
> the reputation of textfyre because customers purchasing a $5 expect to
> be buying a substandard game.
$5 is too low. It implies that the developers (or at least their sales
team) lack confidence in the quality of the product. I think $10 sounds
appropriate for an indy Internet-based software company -- but then, I
haven't played the games in question. Textfyre may be counting on the
demos to convince their customers that the full games are worth $25, and
they may be right.
S. John Ross
> >> themselves up for a big fall. [...] they are shooting themselves in the foot.
>
> > If that turns out to be true, it'll be a self-correcting problem.
>
> Yes and no. The field of commercial IF is small enough that every
> publication reflects on the whole field, for better or worse.
My alternate perspective: (A) There is no such field, so any
generalization about it is fanciful (B) The existing publishers of for-
sale each sell to _completely_ different audiences, so even if they
gelled into a field, one could practically nuke a small country
without any of the others feeling the slightest breeze.*
And, honestly, you pay the entire conversation an undue compliment by
actually _considering_ any part of it. There's nothing there other
than chuckles, I'm afraid (and fairly grim chuckles, at that). It was
just a troll being a troll, and myself and others trying to at least
glean entertainment from it.
----------
* Unless, of course, they lived in the small country.
> > TextFyre guy has already said that there will be at least one demo
> > version, and maybe more.
>
> Which is more than most video game publishers do.
It is nice, however, that all four IF sellers that I know of do offer
free demos of some sort (thank heaven, in the case of Malinche; I
might have bought one of his games had the freebie game not sent me
running for the hills with my eyes bleeding).
> Or did Anon ymous mean
> "such as Textfyre" as an operative phrase, implying that, while most
> companies need not submit to independent review before publication, a
> company such as Textfyre does need to do so? If so, what is the
> distinguishing feature of Textfyre? Just being new?
The troll had no point to consider, I think. I defer to your superior
grace :)
> Textfyre may be counting on the
> demos to convince their customers that the full games are worth $25, and
> they may be right.
Certainly, if the demo rocks my world, I'll be shelling out my $25
happily. And if it doesn't, I won't, and thus is the way of honest
business.
Peter Pears
...but is it just me, or is Silverlight
sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow? Especially when saving/loading.
Several times I wished you guyes had just used Glulx and be done with
it.
David C.
If you're using the Mac version, we're aware of a performance problem
and will address it as soon as possible. There shouldn't any such
issues on Windows, but let me know either way. Also, we should take
company and game issues off of r*if and onto the forums at
http://forums.textfyre.com.
If you're going to ask game spoilery questions, those can go either on
the forums or on rgif.
David C.