Why should the player care?
Roger Ostrander
I got into IF a year or so, and then lost my newsfeed, and just
recently came back. Up until now, I'd only done one bit of IF, and
that for a minicomp (Annoyed Undead, for the inventory comp :). I
have, however, had an idea rolling around in the back of my head for a
while and figured now would be a good time to start on it as I plan
to enter Comp01. (The idea being, of course, to thoroughly beta-test)
The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
this from happening via various devices.
My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
with the Hero?
Thanks,
--
-- Roger Ostrander
Kathleen M. Fischer
> The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> this from happening via various devices.
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
> Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
> player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
> with the Hero?
Depends on what the Hero is doing, and why (not how) he dies.
If your game starts with me (the PC) walking across the street thinking
about the weather and I promptly get run over by a bus... I'm not sure I
*would* care (not that I wouldn't want to WIN the game, and thus pursue
your goal anyway)
If you have me racing across the street to pluck a toddler out of the
way of said bus, then I would probably care... a lot. :)
But that's just me,
Kathleen
--
-- Masquerade - http://baf.wurb.com/if/competition00/inform/mask/
-- The Cove - Best of Landscape, Interactive Fiction Art Show 2000
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Cove.z5
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dennis G. Jerz
"Roger Ostrander" <de...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
> Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
> player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
> with the Hero?
You might try creating a relationship between the "hero" and the PC -- that
is, the "hero" is really an NPC who you can control for some time, and who
is, within the framework of the narrative, the PC's significant other, or
partner, or apprentice. SF or fantasy would provide you with ample ways to
make that connection (time travel, premonitions, etc.).
You might also be more postmodern about it, and just take it as a given that
you, the person who sits down at the keyboard, have the opporunity to change
events. I'm sure I'm not the only one who replayed Adam Cadre's "Photopia"
simply for the purpose of trying to influence the ending; it was the power
of the writing that got me to care about Alley, even though I was never able
to control her actions.
-- Dennis G. Jerz
Philipp Lenssen
8s2efp$128c$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
>..
> For some period of time, likely short,
> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> this from happening via various devices.
> the Hero dies?
Who will act as protagonist after the hero dies?
Is it a ghost of the hero who travels back in time? Then a reasonable
motivation would be to save your own soul.
If it's a shift in time by means of story-telling ("somewhere else, several
months earlier...") I think it would be motivational to prevent the hero's
death from happening if he: didn't quite die in the first place, and: is
related to the main character of the second part in some way or other.
Maybe if the second character dies too, trying to save the first one, and
the player would take over with a third one to save the second, and so on,
then it would be motivational to see you pull off the inverted domino effect
at the end of the story.
John D Evans
Hi, Dr. Nick!
(sorry)
[...]
> The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> this from happening via various devices.
Straightforward enough. Definitely play through Photopia if you
haven't.
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
That's a very good question.
> Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
> player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
> with the Hero?
There are a couple of things that immediately occur to me.
First, you could create some sort of larger issue. Like, unless the
Hero defuses the nuclear reactor, a major city will be wiped out.
That's probably over the top, but the idea is that the Hero's death
might mean something more than just his/her death.
Of course, this could easily become silly. Silly in a bad way, or
silly in a good way. Like "Mr. Hero has to save the city and win the
football game so the kids can keep the orphanage and declare his love
for his ex-girlfriend so they can produce a child who will save the
world from aliens 30 years in the future"...See, that could be
rather entertaining, as I see it, but you have to make a very
conscious choice to do it. ^_^;
Another thing you could do is have some supernatural entity step in
and say "This person Must Not Die, and it is Your Task to Prevent
It". Heavy-handed, maybe, deus ex machina, certainly, but it could
work. ...possibly.
I realize those suggestions are probably unsubtle, so here's my
final one which I think is a little better. What you could do is
have the Hero's death be a mystery...And the player, not knowing
what happened, wants to discover why this person was killed. Why
were they gunned down? What effect did their life have on things?
And as they go through this 'resurrection' process or whatever, it
becomes clear. This might work if the player character was the
hero's spirit. And they were trying to get back to life to get
vengeance or something. Or just figure out what happened and make
their life normal again.
This brings up the one important issue you need to address; who or
what is the player? The player is the Hero, and then the Hero
dies, and the player is...what? The Hero's spirit? Some other
entity? Some nameless force? Think about it...
#!/usr/bin/perl # John Evans jo...@mit.edu http://www.mit.edu/~johne/
while(<STDIN>){if(/^\d+$/){$a=$b=$c=1;$_++;until($_==$b){if($_<$b){$_+=$a+=
2;}else{$b+=$c+=2;}}$b=($c-$a++)/2;print $b," ",$a+$b,"\n";}else{die"\n";}}
Aris Katsaris
>
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
Make the hero likeable. A skilled introduction can do as much. Have him
have a child. Start him in an emotional scene. Have him feel human
emotions. Something. Anything. I don't think it'll be that hard.
Aris Katsaris
Roger Ostrander
> (miniscule spoiler for "Photopia" follows)
> "Roger Ostrander" <de...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
[snip stuff I wrote]
> You might try creating a relationship between the "hero" and the PC -- that
> is, the "hero" is really an NPC who you can control for some time, and who
> is, within the framework of the narrative, the PC's significant other, or
> partner, or apprentice. SF or fantasy would provide you with ample ways to
> make that connection (time travel, premonitions, etc.).
It's not a bad idea, establishing a relationship and building from
there, but I think it runs into the same length problem as before -
how do I establish a relationship for the Hero, and not have it so
overly long as to make the rest of the game tacked on?
It's also difficult because the hero's not going to be interacting
with anyone he knows, at least not for most of the game. The pregame
can have elements of a relationship, but after the Hero dies, all bets
are likely of.
> You might also be more postmodern about it, and just take it as a given that
> you, the person who sits down at the keyboard, have the opportunity to change
> events. I'm sure I'm not the only one who replayed Adam Cadre's "Photopia"
> simply for the purpose of trying to influence the ending; it was the power
> of the writing that got me to care about Alley, even though I was never able
> to control her actions.
That's one of the motivations I'd hoped for, as a matter of fact. I
played Photopia for the same reason :) I plan to put a lot of depth
and ability to change things in the game, but only on a small scale -
i.e., some of the characters' behavior may change, but the Hero still dies.
--
-- Roger Ostrander
Roger Ostrander
[...]
> Who will act as protagonist after the hero dies?
> Is it a ghost of the hero who travels back in time? Then a reasonable
> motivation would be to save your own soul.
Essentially, yes - the hero's spirit is given a chance to prevent
his own death by becoming the people that witnessed it. It's limited
to just the day immediately before, and the hero doesn't even walk in
until /after/ the sun sets (so you can't directly influence his actions)
[..]
> Maybe if the second character dies too, trying to save the first one, and
> the player would take over with a third one to save the second, and so on,
> then it would be motivational to see you pull off the inverted domino effect
> at the end of the story.
I love this idea :) I don't think I could pull it off, though.
Still, it's something to keep in mind.
--
-- Roger Ostrander
Roger Ostrander
[...]
> Straightforward enough. Definitely play through Photopia if you
> haven't.
I have :) A good source of inspiration!
(No, I'm not trying to remake Photopia here, though :)
[...]
> There are a couple of things that immediately occur to me.
> First, you could create some sort of larger issue. Like, unless the
> Hero defuses the nuclear reactor, a major city will be wiped out.
> That's probably over the top, but the idea is that the Hero's death
> might mean something more than just his/her death.
Essentially, that's what I had in mind... (more on this below)
> Another thing you could do is have some supernatural entity step in
> and say "This person Must Not Die, and it is Your Task to Prevent
> It". Heavy-handed, maybe, deus ex machina, certainly, but it could
> work. ...possibly.
> I realize those suggestions are probably unsubtle, so here's my
> final one which I think is a little better. What you could do is
> have the Hero's death be a mystery...And the player, not knowing
> what happened, wants to discover why this person was killed. Why
> were they gunned down? What effect did their life have on things?
> And as they go through this 'resurrection' process or whatever, it
> becomes clear. This might work if the player character was the
> hero's spirit. And they were trying to get back to life to get
> vengeance or something. Or just figure out what happened and make
> their life normal again.
This is the idea. All you know after you've died is that
'something' (a voice explains the rules to you, you have no clue what
it is) has given you another chance. Why? The thing which kills you is
essentially screwing up The Way Things Should Be. A major point of
the game is that you're not supposed to really do anything else other
than save your own hide, because the forces involved in what's going
on are way out of your league :)
Needless to say, saving his own hide goes against the Hero's grain,
which is where I plan to put a lot of the challenge.
I intend to put a lot of mystery into it -- if the hero's so puny
compared to the villain, why did the villain even bother to deal with
him? Along those lines, why are you being given the chance to set
things right? You're insignificant compared to the things that are
happening -- unless you're not, in which case you might be able to set
things more right than just getting yourself saved :)
> This brings up the one important issue you need to address; who or
> what is the player? The player is the Hero, and then the Hero
> dies, and the player is...what? The Hero's spirit? Some other
> entity? Some nameless force? Think about it...
The player is the hero and then (after the Hero's death) the spirit
of the hero. The thing that rescued you gives you the opportunity to
become anyone the hero encountered in the town where he died (one
person, at first). After that person's day is up (you have from sunup
to sundown to try to change things), you can become anyone that person
had contact with, or the person you were once more.
As the townspeople are integral to the plot, you'll likely spend a
lot more time as them than you will as the Hero, which leads me back
to my original problem -- I'd like to be able to remind the player
that they're supposed to be rescuing the hero, not seeing how many
different states I managed to code into the game. :)
--
-- Roger Ostrander
Chris Piuma, etc.
<de...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> this from happening via various devices.
Others have mentioned Photopia -- but have you tried playing Rematch
yet?
--
Chris Piuma, etc.
http://www.flim.com
Joe Pfeiffer
writing -- why should the audience care? Why should the reader care
about the Hero of a story? Why should the viewer care about the Hero
of a movie? And in any genre, the author really only has a very short
time to make it happen -- if I don't care about the Hero of a book I'm
reading within a very few pages, I'm not likely to end up finishing
it. You've made your deadline more apparent by killing the Hero off
quickly, but you haven't really made it any earlier, or any more
real.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
VL 2000 Homepage: http://www.cs.orst.edu/~burnett/vl2000/
Josh Westbury
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
> Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
> player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
> with the Hero?
Trying to think of things that would make me, a player of IF, care about
how long the Hero lives (apart from scoring points/advancing the plot).
Supposing that, while possessing the Hero, you are aware of intrusive
thoughts from them - e.g. I don't want to die, I am suffering, or I must
do this (whatever this is) before I die. You might then sympathise or
pity the character you were possessing instead of using them as a
puppet.
Or, what if the Hero was a particularly charming or witty character, or
there was some other benefit to being him/her (e.g. the bad guys are
scared of him, he's a faster runner, better eyesight, a talent for
balloon animals or something the player can't do at other times). You
might then want to spend more time as the Hero, discovering what they
think, or what you can do as them.
Good luck, hope your game doesn't descend to the eternal WIP like all
mine seem to :(
Josh
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foobler
"Roger Ostrander" <de...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8s4t6f$596
<snip>
> This is the idea. All you know after you've died is that
> 'something' (a voice explains the rules to you, you have no clue what
> it is) has given you another chance. Why? The thing which kills you is
> essentially screwing up The Way Things Should Be. A major point of
> the game is that you're not supposed to really do anything else other
> than save your own hide, because the forces involved in what's going
> on are way out of your league :)
You should read the SF classic, Night of Delusions.
-- No one in particulate matters....
Chad Schultz
> > The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
> > the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> > Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job,
and
> > the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> > this from happening via various devices.
>
> haven't.
>
if
> > the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> > time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> > Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> > game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
[cuts out good ideas]
Ideas of my own: for one, there's the simple, "to win the game, you
must keep the player alive"... but that doesn't make for good games,
only a mildly interesting puzzle.
First, decide the "tone" of your game. Silly or serious? There are ways
to accomplish your goals with either tone. If serious, you can simply
try writing, perhaps something like this:
"A cramp strikes your belly and you double over. Fleeting images of
your life fill your mind. Your family, friends, growing up... and your
own mortality. You realize you could very quickly depart this
existence, and the thought, the closeness of the possibility, strikes
like a bullet through you, making you shudder.
You don't want to die..."
Just an idea, of course.
--
Chad Schultz (chads...@hotmail.com)
If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port,
and the bus is interrupted as a very last resort,
and the address of the memory makes your floppy
disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an
error to report.
foobler
R. Alan Monroe
>> The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
>> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
>> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
>> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
>> this from happening via various devices.
>
>Straightforward enough. Definitely play through Photopia if you
>haven't.
As well as Rematch...
Have fun
Alan
Peter Ciccolo
Roger Ostrander wrote:
> The basic premise is this: For some period of time, likely short,
> the player controls the main character (who I will refer to as The
> Hero). At the end of this time, the hero dies. The player's job, and
> the core concept of the rest of the game, is to attempt to prevent
> this from happening via various devices.
> My problem is related to the subject - why should the player care if
> the Hero dies? If the player is the Hero for only a short period of
> time, it's hard to get attached. Conversely, if the player is the
> Hero for much longer than a short time, then the main portion of the
> game will feel as though it's been tacked on.
> Would the desire to win the game be the only motivation for the
> player here? Or is there a better way to get the player to sympathize
> with the Hero?
You could have the hero die relatively quickly, and then have the player
see, while in other persona, just what a great person he/she was.