WORLD FRIENDLY GAMES
Ashley Price
Can I make a plea to all those that are writing games at the moment (and in
the future)?
"NO, you can't!" game writing populous.
Oh, go on, I'll be your friend?
"Oh, all right, just make it quick."
Can everyone try to remember that their games are likely to be played by
others from all over the world. A couple of times I have found that I am
having trouble completing a game, because I don't know the 'local slang' for
an object or I forget that others write the date differently.
For example, here in England, rubbers are erasers, not (usually) condoms and
we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy. Pants to the English are
the garment you wear under your trousers (or pants in America, for instance)
and pantyhose to us are tights.
This may seem a small point but if someone cannot complete your adventure
because they don't know (rather than just not remembering) the word that has
been used, it can lead to frustration. If the date or object is necessary to
completing the game and you know that other countries use other terms, could
you just remind them in the introduction. It sure would save a lot of time
wasting.
Ashley
Iain Merrick
> Can everyone try to remember that their games are likely to be played by
> others from all over the world. A couple of times I have found that I am
> having trouble completing a game, because I don't know the 'local slang' for
> an object or I forget that others write the date differently.[...]
[...]
> For example, here in England, rubbers are erasers, not (usually) condoms and
> we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy. Pants to the English are
> the garment you wear under your trousers (or pants in America, for instance)
> and pantyhose to us are tights.
Seconded! My personal bugbear is having to use 'shoot gun' instead of
'fire gun'.
Adam Cadre's I-0 is a good example of the Right Way To Do Things. If you
haven't tried using UK names for the various parts of the car in the
opening scene, do so. Fun.
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
nickmo...@my-deja.com
> My personal bugbear is having to use 'shoot gun' instead of 'fire
> gun'.
Even in the United States, you do not really shoot a gun -- unless you
are aiming at it with another gun, which you then fire.
IF authors should certainly keep in mind that their audience is
international, particularly with respect to the input they expect. But
they also have to write in the language they know, and concentrate on
doing that well. I don't think Douglas Adams should have changed Ford
Prefect's name to Ford Mustang for the American edition, just so readers
would get the joke. Nor do I think that Hollywood Hijinks needs to
inculde the synonym "lift" to mean "elevator". For Sherlock: Riddle of
The Crown Jewels, which clearly seeks to build on of English literature,
the opposite should apply - it would be appropriate to excise
Americanisms.
It is a different matter, of course, when the interactor is expected to
spontaneouly type in some verb that is unknown (or is spelled
differetly) in certain dialect of English. That more substantially
limits the audience for a work.
-Nick M.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Kathleen M. Fischer
> Can everyone try to remember that their games are likely to be played by
> others from all over the world.
> For example, here in England, rubbers are erasers, not (usually) condoms and
> we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy. Pants to the English are
> the garment you wear under your trousers (or pants in America, for instance)
> and pantyhose to us are tights.
An excellent point, but, uh... well... unless there is a list of such
terms, how would the author know to include them? (Is there such a
list?)
I guess the best way would be to make sure you have international
panel of beta-testers! And while that might work for synonyms, what
about the actual text of the game? I imagine the effect desired with
a description of a school room desk containing 3 rubbers is quite
different depending on if the author was british or american!
Kathleen
--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov (nospam = l l n l) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **
Adam J. Thornton
Kathleen M. Fischer <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
>I guess the best way would be to make sure you have international
>panel of beta-testers! And while that might work for synonyms, what
>about the actual text of the game? I imagine the effect desired with
>a description of a school room desk containing 3 rubbers is quite
>different depending on if the author was british or american!
Not to mention
>SLIDE FANNY ONTO BARSTOOL
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits
okbl...@my-deja.com
"Ashley Price" <ash...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Can everyone try to remember that their games are likely to be played
> I am having trouble completing a game, because I don't know the 'local
> slang' for an object or I forget that others write the date
> differently.
>
> condoms and we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy. Pants
> to the English are the garment you wear under your trousers (or pants
> in America, for instance) and pantyhose to us are tights.
>
"local slang". (Pants, rubbers, pantyhose and so on are not considered
slang words in American English and I imagine their parallels aren't in
the Queen's English, either).
You know who's especially bad at this sort of thing, though? Dickens.
The man just dripped with slang that was not only localized but
temporalized. (Shakespeare, too.)
Not to be glib about it but good dictionaries and, yes, even slang
dictionaries are probably more important here than authors changing
their word usage. If the American author uses "tights" instead of
"pantyhose" for example, he's going to create a different image in his
American readers' minds.
As for synonyms, well, there's an element of role-playing inherent in
IF, just pretend you're an American. (Just as Americans should adapt to
English culture when appropriate.) It can be part of the fun.
--
[ok]
Stephen Granade
> Can everyone try to remember that their games are likely to be played by
> others from all over the world. A couple of times I have found that I am
> having trouble completing a game, because I don't know the 'local slang' for
> an object or I forget that others write the date differently.
A good suggestion. As a game author, I'd also ask you to remember that
sometimes we write slang because it fits the mood of the piece.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About.com's IF Page
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com
Ashley Price
I realise that you haven't necessarily understood me - which is my fault not
yours.
By all means have the terms you are used to in your game, but just give
players a few pointers at the beginning that there may be differences
between what they would naturally type and what they should type.
(Un)Fortunately because I have watched a lot of American programmes and
films (and being in chat rooms) I get to know these differences, but not
everyone will.
Ashley
Charles Gerlach
[snip relatively on-topic stuff to get to this irrelevant bit]
> I don't think Douglas Adams should have changed Ford
> Prefect's name to Ford Mustang for the American edition, just so readers
> would get the joke.
You have just blown my tiny little mind. I've (apparently)
only read the British editions which I purchased in American
bookstores. I have never seen the character referred to as
Ford Mustang. I had no idea that Prefect was a car model, much
less made by Ford for a European market.
That's it. Time to go home.
--
Charles Gerlach doesn't speak for Northwestern. Surprise, surprise.
Erik Max Francis
> I've (apparently)
> only read the British editions which I purchased in American
> bookstores. I have never seen the character referred to as
> Ford Mustang. I had no idea that Prefect was a car model, much
> less made by Ford for a European market.
Same exact thing here, as a fellow American. Never heard anything but
Prefect. But then, I've never been too crazy about Douglas Adams
anyway.
--
Erik Max Francis | icq 16063900 | whois mf303 | email m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems | irc maxxon (efnet) | web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA | languages en, eo | icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
USA | Wed 1999 Aug 18 (21%/948) | &tSftDotIotE
__
/ \ Light ... more light!
\__/ (the last words of Goethe)
David Given
"Ashley Price" <ash...@pavilion.co.uk> writes:
[...]
> For example, here in England, rubbers are erasers, not (usually) condoms and
> we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy.
Look out, my pet peeve's escaped.
The One True Way of writing dates is, of course, yyyy/mm/dd (otherwise
known as Japanese style). Not only is it completely unambiguous, an
alphabetical sort of a list of dates will result in a list sorted by date.
(Try that on American or British format dates.)
You Know it Makes Sense.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | Disclaimer: We have no wish to offend you
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | unless you're a twit.
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
Jake Wildstrom
>As for synonyms, well, there's an element of role-playing inherent in
>IF, just pretend you're an American. (Just as Americans should adapt to
>English culture when appropriate.) It can be part of the fun.
Heh. When I read this, it reminds me of the not-particularly subtle hint from
Adam Cadre's I-0 that you're supposed to be American:
>x boot
[British, eh? Well, Tracy's from the American Southwest, and for now, you're
Tracy. So get into character! What you call the "boot" is the "trunk", and what
you call the "bonnet" is the "hood". Oh, and those rubber things on the wheels
are "tires" -- nary a "y" in sight. Just be glad this game doesn't have an
elevator in it.]
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Stuart Barrow
> nickmo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> [snip relatively on-topic stuff to get to this irrelevant bit]
>
> > I don't think Douglas Adams should have changed Ford
> > Prefect's name to Ford Mustang for the American edition, just so readers
> > would get the joke.
>
> You have just blown my tiny little mind. I've (apparently)
> only read the British editions which I purchased in American
> bookstores. I have never seen the character referred to as
> Ford Mustang. I had no idea that Prefect was a car model, much
> less made by Ford for a European market.
Actually, this one is news to me too. I'm currently reading the American
version of "Life, the Universe and Everything", and sure enough, he's
still Ford Prefect. I presume nickmontfort was speculating - he's right,
that change shouldn't have been made. Then again, I was stunned that the
perfectly innocuous "asshole" from the original has been replaced by the
vicious and nasty "kneebiter" in the American edition - a sure sign that
they Americans are ****ed up to Belgium.
> That's it. Time to go home.
Wish it were. :)
Stu.
Jurgen Lerch)
Jake Wildstrom <wil...@mit.edu> wrote:
[...]
> Heh. When I read this, it reminds me of the not-particularly subtle hint from
> Adam Cadre's I-0 that you're supposed to be American:
>>x boot
> [British, eh? Well, Tracy's from the American Southwest, and for now, you're
> Tracy. So get into character! What you call the "boot" is the "trunk", and what
> you call the "bonnet" is the "hood". Oh, and those rubber things on the wheels
> are "tires" -- nary a "y" in sight. Just be glad this game doesn't have an
> elevator in it.]
Boot means a part of a car where you store things in? (At
least I hope you mean _that_ meaning of trunk ...) I always
thought you'd wear them on your feet ... There are obviously
even more pitfalls for players that are neither American nor
British ...
Ad Astra!
JuL
--
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de / Realität ist eine Krücke für diejenigen,
Jürgen ,,JuL'' Lerch / die mit der Fantasie nicht zurechtkommen
http://www-public.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/
Philip W. Darnowsky
: Charles Gerlach wrote:
: > I've (apparently)
: > only read the British editions which I purchased in American
: > bookstores. I have never seen the character referred to as
: > Ford Mustang. I had no idea that Prefect was a car model, much
: > less made by Ford for a European market.
: Same exact thing here, as a fellow American. Never heard anything but
: Prefect. But then, I've never been too crazy about Douglas Adams
: anyway.
You realize we'll have to burn you at the stake now.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Darnowsky pdar...@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net
Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply.
"You see officer, I was in a hurry to get to the brothel, so
when I made that turn the wrong way up the one-way street, I
dropped my crack pipe. Of course, I didn't want that to set
all those counterfeit $20 bills on fire, so I bent down to
grab it. Just my luck, my Glock fell off my lap, and wedged
itself onto the gas pedal. I tried to pull up the pedal with
a crowbar, but it was all slippery with blood and brains and
hair. Anyway, I think the pedal got stuck, what with all the
Krazy Glue I was huffing dripping onto it. So that's why my
car hit that Volkswagen full of nuns, but that's all right,
since I'm really too drunk to be driving anyway."
Dylan O'Donnell
> In article <7pefqk$b27$1...@grind.server.pavilion.net>,
> "Ashley Price" <ash...@pavilion.co.uk> writes:
> [...]
> > For example, here in England, rubbers are erasers, not (usually) condoms
> > and we write the date as dd/mm/yy rather than mm/dd/yy.
> [...]
>
> Look out, my pet peeve's escaped.
>
> The One True Way of writing dates is, of course, yyyy/mm/dd (otherwise
> known as Japanese style). Not only is it completely unambiguous, an
> alphabetical sort of a list of dates will result in a list sorted by date.
> (Try that on American or British format dates.)
Close. ISO 8601 mandates, however, that the separator should be a
hyphen; so, yyyy-mm-dd. The slash is used to denote periods of time
(eg, 1999-08-19/21).
(http://www.iso.ch/markete/8601.pdf)
--
Dylan O'Donnell : yip yip yip yap yap yip yip *BANG*
http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : NO TERRIER
TenthStone
<cage...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>nickmo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>[snip relatively on-topic stuff to get to this irrelevant bit]
>
>> I don't think Douglas Adams should have changed Ford
>> Prefect's name to Ford Mustang for the American edition, just so readers
>> would get the joke.
>
>You have just blown my tiny little mind. I've (apparently)
>only read the British editions which I purchased in American
>bookstores. I have never seen the character referred to as
>Ford Mustang. I had no idea that Prefect was a car model, much
>less made by Ford for a European market.
There's a bit of a misunderstanding here. Adams didn't change
Ford Prefect's name. Nick was just saying that he would not have
agreed with Adams doing so.
And you can figure out from context, with some difficulty, that
the Prefect was a type of car. Being young, I just figured it was
some Ford model that I'd never seen, instead of being one targeted
for a foreign market. So, there you go.
----------------
The Imperturbable TenthStone
mcc...@erols.com tenth...@hotmail.com mcc...@gsgis.k12.va.us
nickmo...@my-deja.com
> There's a bit of a misunderstanding here. Adams didn't change
> Ford Prefect's name. Nick was just saying that he would not have
> agreed with Adams doing so.
Exactly -- sorry I wasn't more clear. My point was, people can enjoy a
work even if they are excluded from some of the country-specific
in-jokes. So allowing for different sorts of input, in different
dialects, is fine -- but homogenizing every aspect of the writing and
parsing isn't particularly a good thing.
The way of dealing with this in Adam Cadre's I-0, as discussed elsewhere
on this thread, is a good example of being considerate to an interactor
while maintaining the particular language of the work.
-Nick M.
John W. Kennedy
> The One True Way of writing dates is, of course, yyyy/mm/dd (otherwise
> known as Japanese style). Not only is it completely unambiguous, an
> alphabetical sort of a list of dates will result in a list sorted by date.
> (Try that on American or British format dates.)
To be absolutely correct, it's yyyy-mm-dd.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
John W. Kennedy
> An excellent point, but, uh... well... unless there is a list of such
> terms, how would the author know to include them? (Is there such a
> list?)
Well, the British are usually more familiar with the US language than
the reverse, thanks to Hollywood. Petition your cable company to carry
BBC America....
We have a 1942 War Department pamphlet for instructing G.I.'s in the
fine art of not behaving like a jerk in Britain, which includes a
glossary with such notable entries as "chucker-out: bouncer", as well
as observations such as that London cabs may look queer to an American,
but they can make a U-turn in a medieval street.
> I guess the best way would be to make sure you have international
> panel of beta-testers! And while that might work for synonyms, what
> about the actual text of the game? I imagine the effect desired with
> a description of a school room desk containing 3 rubbers is quite
> different depending on if the author was british or american!
Right now I am working on a game from the P.O.V. of an American tourist
in England. It's enough to drive one mad, since one has to be careful
to use both dialects, depending on the speaker.
John W. Kennedy
> What I like about this message is the idea that American English is
> "local slang". (Pants, rubbers, pantyhose and so on are not considered
> slang words in American English and I imagine their parallels aren't in
> the Queen's English, either).
"Rubbers" meaning overshoes is not slang in the US, but "rubbers"
meaning condoms certainly is.
> Not to be glib about it but good dictionaries and, yes, even slang
> dictionaries are probably more important here than authors changing
> their word usage. If the American author uses "tights" instead of
> "pantyhose" for example, he's going to create a different image in his
> American readers' minds.
Explanation: in America, "tights" are opaque, and are worn by dancers
and acrobats, (and by actors as substitutes for period "hose").
John W. Kennedy
>
> Saluton!
>
> Jake Wildstrom <wil...@mit.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> > Heh. When I read this, it reminds me of the not-particularly subtle hint from
> > Adam Cadre's I-0 that you're supposed to be American:
> >>x boot
> > [British, eh? Well, Tracy's from the American Southwest, and for now, you're
> > Tracy. So get into character! What you call the "boot" is the "trunk", and what
> > you call the "bonnet" is the "hood". Oh, and those rubber things on the wheels
> > are "tires" -- nary a "y" in sight. Just be glad this game doesn't have an
> > elevator in it.]
>
> Boot means a part of a car where you store things in? (At
> least I hope you mean _that_ meaning of trunk ...) I always
> thought you'd wear them on your feet ... There are obviously
> even more pitfalls for players that are neither American nor
> British ...
Yes, the luggage compartment of a British automobile is the "boot". I
believe boots are also worn on the feet in Britain, but I cannot
specifically recall at the moment. "Boots" is also a famous chain of
chemist's shops (pharmacies), as I remember.
And "lumber" means -- not exactly "junk", but "junk" as in "all the junk
I have in the attic."
And "bum" means "butt" -- never "tramp".
And speaking of butts, an "ass" is an animal; you sit on your "arse".
And on and on and on....
There are also far more differences in spelling than "tyre",
"optimisation" ("z" seems to be winning here, anyway), "programme", and
"colour". There's also "no-one", "traveller", and "judgement", for
example.
Erik Max Francis
> There's also "no-one", "traveller", and "judgement", for
> example.
For the latter two, both spellings are common in the United States.
--
Erik Max Francis | icq 16063900 | whois mf303 | email m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems | irc maxxon (efnet) | web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA | languages en, eo | icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
USA | Thu 1999 Aug 19 (24%/948) | &tSftDotIotE
__
/ \ What a crime to waste [youth] on children.
\__/ George Bernard Shaw
R. Alan Monroe
>And you can figure out from context, with some difficulty, that
>the Prefect was a type of car.
Erm, no you can't. It didn't occur to me in half a dozen readings.
Have fun
Alan
Iain Merrick
[...]
> An excellent point, but, uh... well... unless there is a list of such
> terms, how would the author know to include them? (Is there such a
> list?)
If there is such a list, someone post the URL. Please!
Here are a few I've come across:
US (I think) UK
in back of behind
anyhow anyway
toward towards
a scissors a pair of scissors
dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
yodeling, modeling yodelling, modelling
criticize criticise
Hmmm, I can't think of many nouns, which are probably more useful in the
current context of internationalizing IF.
Jake Wildstrom
Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Here are a few I've come across:
>
>US (I think) UK
>
>in back of behind
>anyhow anyway
I've seen both used in the US. I use "anyways" more than either.
>toward towards
Again, both seem common in the US.
>a scissors a pair of scissors
I've never seen anyone refer to "a scissors". Guess I haven't lived yet...
>dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
These are unusual, because usage seems to vary. Invariably, the shortened
versions are used as adjectives (analog circuitry, dialog box), but in noun
forms I'm pretty sure the "UK" versinos are standard here. Suffice to say that
I've seen an edition of the "Dialogues of Plato" where "color" (not colour) is
referred to as an attribute.
>yodeling, modeling yodelling, modelling
OK. This I can agree with.
>criticize criticise
Yup. Along with most other verbs ending in -ize/-ise. Particularly
"Initialize", a painful one for American Inform users. For whatever reason,
exercise is immune to this modification.
There are lots of nouns too of course. Don't try to "bum a fag" in America--
they'll think you're making an indecent proposal, but won't be sure what sort
(bum being never used as a verb in America).
A few more, or the noun variety, mostly culled from earlier in this thread:
US UK
-- --
truck lorry
hood bonnet
trunk boot
tires tyres
color, honor, etc. colour, honour, etc.
center, meter, etc. centre, metre, etc.
baby carriage pram
football American football
soccer football
elevator lift
bum tramp
ass bum or arse
donkey ass
cigarette fag
fag (crude colloq.) homosexual
to borrow to bum
rubbers condoms
erasers rubbers
apartment flat
That's all I can think of offhand...
Iain Merrick
> Iain Merrick wrote:
>
> >Here are a few I've come across:
This actually sparked off a mild debate on the MUD. We decided that:
> >US (I think) UK
> >
> >in back of behind
_Everyone_ thinks that 'in back of' is weird, but Altavista reports that
there are people who use it.
[...]
> >a scissors a pair of scissors
>
> I've never seen anyone refer to "a scissors". Guess I haven't lived yet...
I saw this in an old Peanuts strip and thought it was weird. Apparently
it's an old-fashioned expression in some parts of the US.
> >dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
>
> These are unusual, because usage seems to vary. Invariably, the shortened
> versions are used as adjectives (analog circuitry, dialog box), but in noun
> forms I'm pretty sure the "UK" versinos are standard here. Suffice to say that
> I've seen an edition of the "Dialogues of Plato" where "color" (not colour) is
> referred to as an attribute.
Hmm, yes. I tend to use 'dialog box' and so on when talking about GUIs.
But I think I'd use the *-ogue forms for everything else, including
adjectives: 'analogue computer'.
> A few more, or the noun variety, mostly culled from earlier in this thread:
[... long list snipped ...]
Cool. The ones that look the strangest to me (as a UK person) are:
> US UK
> -- --
> baby carriage pram
'Baby carriage'? Whoa! I've also seen 'buggy'.
> football American football
> soccer football
'Soccer' is understood in the UK, and is quite often used to refer to
the game itself. But 'football' is much more common than 'soccer ball'.
> elevator lift
Right. 'Elevator' will be understood, but if you're writing a game
_please_ make 'lift' a synonym!
Oh, and there's the thing about floors. We start with 'ground floor',
the first floor being upstairs. Downstairs is the basement.
> fag (crude colloq.) homosexual
Well, there are plenty of crude terms here. I think 'fag' would
generally be understood in the UK. 'Gay' is the usual non-offensive
term.
> cigarette fag
> to borrow to bum
These are the classic ones, but 'to fag' and 'to bum' are slang which
would be misunderstood in many parts of the UK as well as the US.
In central scotland, and probably elsewhere, 'to bum' also means 'to
boast'.
--
Iain Merrick
i...@cs.york.ac.uk
Jurgen Lerch)
Funnily it was at once clear to me as a German, although I
didn't know that model, only Ford as such. (I only still
don't think it particularly funny ...)
Ad Astra!
JuL
--
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
J"urgen ,,JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
http://www-public.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/
John Elliott
>> US UK
>> -- --
>> baby carriage pram
>
>'Baby carriage'? Whoa! I've also seen 'buggy'.
UK people these days seem to be using "pram" to cover both prams
(horizontal bodywork on 4 large wheels, the baby lies down) and pushchairs
(chair on 8 small wheels, the baby sits up).
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
Philip W. Darnowsky
: There are lots of nouns too of course. Don't try to "bum a fag" in America--
: they'll think you're making an indecent proposal, but won't be sure what sort
: (bum being never used as a verb in America).
Actually, when I used to smoke, I would bum cigarettes off of people all
the time, and have them bum cigarettes off of me. But I still do not
suggest that you attempt to bum a fag.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Darnowsky pdar...@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net
Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply.
LUTHER!
Philip W. Darnowsky
: would be misunderstood in many parts of the UK as well as the US.
: In central scotland, and probably elsewhere, 'to bum' also means 'to
: boast'.
In general, I think we could say that regionalism makes generalization
about country-wide slang terms difficult if not futile. I live on the
East Coast of America, and I have a friend who spent many years in the
Midwest. Every time he refers to "pop" I have to think a minute before I
recall that he means "soda."
Marnie Parker
>From: Iain Merrick i...@cs.york.ac.uk
>Date: Fri, 20 August 1999 07:26 AM EDT
>US (I think) UK
>
>in back of behind
>anyhow anyway
>toward towards
>a scissors a pair of scissors
>dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
>yodeling, modeling yodelling, modelling
>criticize criticise
And, of course, the obvious one, that kept throwing me in Curses:
flashlight torch
Really, it did. To me a torch is a stick with the end treated so it can be lit
and flame.
Doe :-) But I figure if torch and lift are included as synonyms, most US games
are covered for English users.
-----------------------------
doea...@aol.com
The Doepage - http://members.aol.com/doepage/index.htm
IF Art Gallery - http://members.aol.com/iffyart/gallery.htm
"I can live for two months on a good compliment." Mark Twain
Ross Presser
Lerch).wrote.posted.offered:
>Saluton!
>
>R. Alan Monroe <amo...@earth1.net> wrote:
>> In article <37bc3052...@news.erols.com>, mcc...@erols.com
(TenthStone) wrote:
>>>And you can figure out from context, with some difficulty, that
>>>the Prefect was a type of car.
>> Erm, no you can't. It didn't occur to me in half a dozen readings.
>
>Funnily it was at once clear to me as a German, although I
>didn't know that model, only Ford as such. (I only still
>don't think it particularly funny ...)
>
> Ad Astra!
> JuL
>
I always thought the joke was "Prefect is not perfect".
Kathleen M. Fischer
>
> Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> US UK
> >> -- --
> >> baby carriage pram
> >
> >'Baby carriage'? Whoa! I've also seen 'buggy'.
>
> UK people these days seem to be using "pram" to cover both prams
> (horizontal bodywork on 4 large wheels, the baby lies down) and pushchairs
> (chair on 8 small wheels, the baby sits up).
pushchair? You mean stroller?
Kathleen
--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov (nospam = l l n l) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **
Kathleen M. Fischer
> Right now I am working on a game from the P.O.V. of an American tourist
> in England. It's enough to drive one mad, since one has to be careful
> to use both dialects, depending on the speaker.
So then maybe you can answer one of my "pet" questions:
If an american author writes a story where a british gentlemen is
commenting on a grey/gray box ('e' for english/'a' for american),
which spelling should be used?
---
An american tourist and an english gentlemen are standing on a
street corner staring at a small gray box.
"The box is grey", says the english gentlemen.
"Light gray," snaps the american tourist.
---
Yuk... that looks awful!
Andrew Plotkin
> John W. Kennedy wrote:
>
>> Right now I am working on a game from the P.O.V. of an American tourist
>> in England. It's enough to drive one mad, since one has to be careful
>> to use both dialects, depending on the speaker.
>
> So then maybe you can answer one of my "pet" questions:
>
> If an american author writes a story where a british gentlemen is
> commenting on a grey/gray box ('e' for english/'a' for american),
> which spelling should be used?
Spelling and punctuation should match the author's locale; word choice
should match the character's.
You wouldn't have a character shouting "That box is grea however the car
is purpel!" Not even if the character *thought* the words were spelled
that way, and had no idea how to use commas.
(If the character was writing a note, that would be different, of course.
And unusual spelling can be used to indicate dialect or unusual
pronounciation -- but that's not the case with "grey"/"gray".)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Erik Max Francis
> US (I think) UK
>
> in back of behind
_Behind_ is used probably more than _in back of_ in the US.
> anyhow anyway
Used equally.
> toward towards
_Toward_ is considered correct US grammar, but _towards_ is very
commonly used in the US.
> a scissors a pair of scissors
No, it's _a pair of scissors_, never _a scissors_.
> dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
> yodeling, modeling yodelling, modelling
> criticize criticise
These involve clear differences between British and American spelling,
of course. (Though many Americans spell _modelling_ with two Ls.)
--
Erik Max Francis | icq 16063900 | whois mf303 | email m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems | irc maxxon (efnet) | web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA | languages en, eo | icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
USA | Fri 1999 Aug 20 (27%/948) | &tSftDotIotE
__
/ \ All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling.
\__/ Oscar Wilde
Erik Max Francis
> If an american author writes a story where a british gentlemen is
> commenting on a grey/gray box ('e' for english/'a' for american),
> which spelling should be used?
That really depends on the context. If the emphasis on the differences
between British and American spelling, then it might be worth doing
(emphasis on _might_).
But in general, the American author will, so to speak, be translating
British spelling to American spelling for the benefit of the reader.
Certainly British idiom (the use of different words than an American
would use) should be represented faithfully, but it makes sense to turn
the spelling into what would be used by an American, because the writer
and the reader are both American.
> An american tourist and an english gentlemen are standing on a
> street corner staring at a small gray box.
>
> "The box is grey", says the english gentlemen.
>
> "Light gray," snaps the american tourist.
The problem here, I would say, is that the reader might even get the
wrong impression that the American is snapping at the _spelling_ of the
word _grey_ (despite being an American I do not spell _grey_ with an A),
not that he thinks the box if light grey, not just grey. But obviously
they can't be having that disagreement, since they're speaking, and no
sense of the difference in spelling could be determined.
Since the author and (presumably) the typical reader will be American,
it makes sense to interpret the spelling in the sense that the reader
would normally encounter it. That is, if I'm an American having a
conversation with a Brit, and he says _colour_ (to avoid the _grey_
example since I don't spell it like a typical American), then the
American will "hear" _color_. They're the same word, just spelled
differently. Thus if I were transcribing our conversation for the
benefit of other Americans, I would naturally spell the words he said
like an American, despite the fact that he might have spelled them
differently than I if he were doing an analogous thing.
Knight37
the southwest (TX, NM, OK, and, briefly IL).
Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote
> Here are a few I've come across:
>
> US (I think) UK
>
> in back of behind
Almost never hear "in back of", but use "behind" lots.
> anyhow anyway
Anyhow? Isn't that slang? I always WRITE "anyway", but I might say "anyhow",
particularly when changing a subject in a conversation.
> toward towards
Hmm... I can't make my mind up on this one. I've used both.
> a scissors a pair of scissors
Never heard of "a scissors" but I've heard people say "pass me the scissors" or
"hand me the scissors". I've also hear "pair of" but that's being kind of
verbose.
> dialog, analog, etc dialogue, analogue
I see "analog" almost exclusively in writings about the
"opposite" of digital (analog phone lines versus digital
phone lines, etc). I've almost never seen the "ue" versions.
Knight37
Knight37
Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote
> > cigarette fag
> > to borrow to bum
>
> These are the classic ones, but 'to fag' and 'to bum' are slang which
> would be misunderstood in many parts of the UK as well as the US.
I think most people in the US would undertand you if you said
you wanted to "bum a ride" or "bum a smoke".
Knight37
L. Ross Raszewski
>> a scissors a pair of scissors
>
>Never heard of "a scissors" but I've heard people say "pass me the scissors" or
>"hand me the scissors". I've also hear "pair of" but that's being kind of
>verbose.
>
for some activity book. It disturbed me greatly.
R. Alan Monroe
>(bum being never used as a verb in America).
In these parts we use it as a verb all the time, as a synonym for beg
or borrow.
Have fun
Alan
R. Alan Monroe
>> baby carriage pram
>'Baby carriage'? Whoa! I've also seen 'buggy'.
Carriages have gone out of fashion altogether. It's stroller, now.
Have fun
Alan
Irene Callaci
wrote:
>> a scissors a pair of scissors
>
>No, it's _a pair of scissors_, never _a scissors_.
>
Well, maybe not *never*. My mother (from Iowa) says
"a scissors" and "the scissors." I almost never hear
her say "a pair of scissors."
irene
Erik Max Francis
> I think most people in the US would undertand you if you said
> you wanted to "bum a ride" or "bum a smoke".
Indeed. _Bum_ used to mean get something for free is used quite
commonly in the United States. It's the use of the word _fag_ to mean a
cigarette that would be alien in the States, although the Britishism of
that word (since it means something quite different here) is pretty
widely known here.
Erik Max Francis
> Well, maybe not *never*. My mother (from Iowa) says
> "a scissors" and "the scissors." I almost never hear
> her say "a pair of scissors."
I have heard _the scissors_ on occasion. I've never heard _a scissors_;
that's merely bad grammar (no offense to your mother intended :-).
Irene Callaci
wrote:
>Irene Callaci wrote:
>
>> Well, maybe not *never*. My mother (from Iowa) says
>> "a scissors" and "the scissors." I almost never hear
>> her say "a pair of scissors."
>
>I have heard _the scissors_ on occasion. I've never heard _a scissors_;
>that's merely bad grammar (no offense to your mother intended :-).
ROFL! None taken. My mother is not exactly a Rhodes scholar,
but she does have other qualities which quite make up for
this particular shortcoming.
irene
Neil K.
> >in back of behind
>
> "In back of" is used for stationary things like buildings, but not for
> anything else.
However, compare "outside" versus the redundant form "outside of." eg:
"The album was recorded in a small village outside Montreal."
or
"The album was recorded in a small village outside of Montreal."
That example happened at the record company where I work. Two Irish
artists were unhappy with the grammar of a news release concerning their
latest album. The latter is common usage in North America but not the UK.
- Neil K.
--
t e l a computer consulting + design * Vancouver, BC, Canada
web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/ * email: tela @ tela.bc.ca
TenthStone
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:26:26 +0100, Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk>
wrote:
>US (I think) UK
>
>in back of behind
"In back of" is used for stationary things like buildings, but not for
anything else.
>toward towards
These are equivalent. The preference is personal, not national.
>a scissors a pair of scissors
I've never heard "a scissors" before, although evidently other people
have. Really, though, it's an indivisible plural noun which doesn't
need to take an indefinite article: "Do you have (any) scissors?"
"Yes, I have (some) scissors."
----------------
The Imperturbable TenthStone
mcc...@erols.com tenth...@hotmail.com mcc...@gsgis.k12.va.us
L. Ross Raszewski
Your mother can relax. Scissors is both singular and plural. "A scissors" is
perfectly acceptable. It's just really really weird.
Trevor Barrie
>>And you can figure out from context, with some difficulty, that
>>the Prefect was a type of car.
>
>Erm, no you can't. It didn't occur to me in half a dozen readings.
Nor I. I thought it was just a weird name.
Trevor Barrie
>In general, I think we could say that regionalism makes generalization
>about country-wide slang terms difficult if not futile. I live on the
>East Coast of America, and I have a friend who spent many years in the
>Midwest. Every time he refers to "pop" I have to think a minute before I
>recall that he means "soda."
Hear on the east coast of Canada, it's always "pop"; while I'm sure people
would figure out what you meant if you asked for "soda", I've never heard
anybody actually use the term.
Scarlet Herring
<ash...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
>This may seem a small point but if someone cannot complete your adventure
>because they don't know (rather than just not remembering) the word that has
>been used, it can lead to frustration. If the date or object is necessary to
>completing the game and you know that other countries use other terms, could
>you just remind them in the introduction. It sure would save a lot of time
>wasting.
For adventure games, this shouldn't be a big problem because usually
every noun you would need to use is mentioned somewhere in the text.
If a text speaks about "a grey box", it would be quite acceptable to
me if the game wouldn't understand "gray box". On the other hand, it
would be also easy for the author to include synonyms, provided he/she
knows them.
For verbs, this might prove to be more of a problem, but most verbs in
adventure games tend to be rather straightforward, exactly the same in
America as in England (or Scotland, or Australia.. ): take, push,
drop, etc. Seldom I encounter a game in which you spontaneously have
to use a non-standard verb. The only I can think of at the moment is
THHTTG, in which you have to "enjoy" something.
I think the biggest problem would be a puzzle which can only be
well-understood by inhabitants of a certain country. The notorious
baseball-maze in Zork II is an example of a puzzle which was for me
impossible to solve, because I has no idea what the hell this puzzle
was all about. As unlikely as it might seem to Americans, a wooden
club with the name "Babe" burnt into it doesn't ring any bells for me.
Luckily, I seldom encounter such puzzles.
I also would like to add that for those people who aren't inhabitants
of a native-English speaking country (like me), it is often very
difficult to know what slang belongs to what country. For instance, in
school I learned British English, while most of the media provide me
with American English. Even now I have decided to try to write
American English (since I feel this is becoming the world standard), I
often don't know which spelling or choice of words is in fact
American. I find I understand both slangs equally well, even when
mixed up.
-------------------------
Scarlet Herring
scarlet...@yahoo.com
Paolo Vece
> flashlight torch
>
> Really, it did. To me a torch is a stick with the end treated so it can be lit
> and flame.
In Italy we call it "Torcia Elettrica" (electric torch), but we usually say
"torcia" for short.
--
Paolo Vece - pv...@mclink.it
BrenBarn
>others from all over the world. A couple of times I have found that I am
>having trouble completing a game, because I don't know the 'local slang' for
>an object or I forget that others write the date differently.
To express my feelings (and I mean this) I shall quote:
"I weep for you; I deeply sympathize." -- The Walrus
However, since I'm lazy and selfish, I'm going to blissfully call
everything what I call it, and if, off the top of my head, I know what someone
else calls it, then I'll add that as a synonym. But quite honestly, I feel
it's the player's burden to figure out what I meant (within reason), not mine
to figure out what they want.
From,
Brendan B. B. (Bren...@aol.com)
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
David Glasser
> In article <7pf5o6$hkh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <okbl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >As for synonyms, well, there's an element of role-playing inherent in
> >IF, just pretend you're an American. (Just as Americans should adapt to
> >English culture when appropriate.) It can be part of the fun.
>
> Heh. When I read this, it reminds me of the not-particularly subtle hint from
> Adam Cadre's I-0 that you're supposed to be American:
>
> >x boot
> [British, eh? Well, Tracy's from the American Southwest, and for now,
> you're Tracy. So get into character! What you call the "boot" is the
> "trunk", and what you call the "bonnet" is the "hood". Oh, and those
> rubber things on the wheels are "tires" -- nary a "y" in sight. Just be
> glad this game doesn't have an elevator in it.]
It works both ways.
When I played TIME: ALL THINGS COME TO AN END (or was it HEIST?), I had
absolutely no clue why there was a *boot*, of all things, on a car.
--
David Glasser: gla...@iname.com | raif FAQ: http://come.to/raiffaq/
"It's good to explore the G.U.E. caves / It's good to explore the G.U.E.
caves / You can count all the leaves / You can KILL TROLL WITH SWORD /
You'll get stuck but you won't be bored"-Joe.Mason, rec.arts.int-fiction
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >>And you can figure out from context, with some difficulty, that
> >>the Prefect was a type of car.
> >
> >Erm, no you can't. It didn't occur to me in half a dozen readings.
>
> Nor I. I thought it was just a weird name.
In fact, by virtue of juxtaposition with "Ford" (which I had
otherwise never seen as a name of a person, weird or otherwise)
it occurred to me that perhaps "prefect" was a model of car,
but I rejected the idea based on the principle that while
I've heard some idiotic names for cars, I'd never heard one
that stupid yet, and anyway, the names of the different Ford
lines are common knowledge (I thought), and that has never
been one of them (I thought). (I was not aware that Ford
as an international company until the meaning of "Ford
Prefect" was explained to me some time later.) So I concluded
that "Prefect" was just a munging of "perfect", similar to the
very trite "pobody's nerfect". I was relatively confident in
this conclusion at the time, too. It made good sense given
all the information I had (including the entire five-book
trilogy).
"It must be hard to cook if you anthropomorphize your vegitables."
-- Calvin
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> In Australia, it's generally just "soft drink", or "fizzy drink" if
> the context suggests that "soft drink" might just mean "non-alcoholoc
> drink".
TV commercials here almost universally call it "soft drink"
(on the occasion that they aren't extolling a particular brand,
of course), but it's a way of dodging the issue. "Soft drink"
is a formal term, like "cola". Almost nobody uses it with any
regularity on a local basis; it's used in TV commercials because
they make one commercial for the whole country, and saying
"soda" here is as foreign as saying "pop" some other places.
And, Kool-Aid commercials aside, I've never seen the term
"soft drink" used for anything that's not carbonated. Kraft
uses the term for Kool-Aid expressly because they want it
to be considered as an equal or at least an alternative to
pop. But that's not a normal usage of "soft drink" in my
experience. A soft drink is carbonated.
I always have trouble with calling it "soda" because
it does not in fact have any soda in it. I know that
people who call it "soda" these days don't really share
the original error of thinking that soda was what made
it pop; just about everyone now knows that it's really
carbon dioxide. But it still bugs me. Maybe I'm a
pedant or something.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > flashlight torch
> >
> > Really, it did. To me a torch is a stick with the end treated so it can be lit
> > and flame.
>
> In Italy we call it "Torcia Elettrica" (electric torch), but we usually say
> "torcia" for short.
I had never previously heard a flashlight called a "torch", but the
one in Curses was expressly called an _electric_ torch, so I
immediately figured out what it was. (Had it not been, I would
probably have had substantial trouble with that.) I'd never
heard of an "electric torch", but if you start thinking about
what an "electric torch" would be it becomes fairly obvious
rather immediately that it's going to be (at least roughly)
functionally equivalent to a flashlight.
BrenBarn
>it does not in fact have any soda in it. I know that
>people who call it "soda" these days don't really share
>the original error of thinking that soda was what made
>it pop; just about everyone now knows that it's really
>carbon dioxide. But it still bugs me. Maybe I'm a
>pedant or something.
drink.
Jurgen Lerch)
Um, that really reminds me of that really stupid German translation
of the AD&D 1st Ed. DM's Handbook. Among other mistakes to numerous
to mention it had torch indeed translated with the German word for
flashlight. Argh!
Ad Astra!
JuL
--
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
J"urgen ,,JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
http://www-public.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/
T Raymond
>bren...@aol.comRemove (BrenBarn) wrote:
>
>> Interesting point. Maybe we should call it "CO2ed drink" or "car-di"
>> drink.
>
>assuming carbon dioxide instead of sodium bicarbonate. But
>I don't think "carbo" will ever catch on as a name for pop.
>I'm not sure why, but it just doesn't sound right, somehow.
>(Then again, neither does "soda", so one never knows...)
Hmm carbo-pop? Isn't that like Surge? ;)
A fizzy none the less. Hey, can I snag that one for some
semi-futuristic weirdness I'm trying to code?
Tom
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tom Raymond adk @ usa.net
"The original professional ameteur."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Hmm carbo-pop? Isn't that like Surge? ;)
> A fizzy none the less. Hey, can I snag that one for some
> semi-futuristic weirdness I'm trying to code?
Be my guest.
'Right! Now the first person to discover twelfth base
gets a ghost point and one free "Get Out of Jail"...'
-- Calvin
John W. Kennedy
>
> John W. Kennedy wrote:
>
> > Right now I am working on a game from the P.O.V. of an American tourist
> > in England. It's enough to drive one mad, since one has to be careful
> > to use both dialects, depending on the speaker.
>
> So then maybe you can answer one of my "pet" questions:
>
> If an american author writes a story where a british gentlemen is
> commenting on a grey/gray box ('e' for english/'a' for american),
> which spelling should be used?
I wouldn't have an Englishman _say_ "grey", but the pamphlets in the
Tourist Information Centre [sic] should spell it that way.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams