Inform in other languages, part 2
Kees Wiebering
Thanks for your reactions on my initial posting on translating IF
systems and games. Some people have asked for my ideas and experiences.
As I have started a Dutch translation of Inform I would like to post
some of the experiences so far. They are based on the Inform 5.5 using the
libraries version 5/12. Some of the other reactions will be reflected in
my remarks as well. I hope it provides some interesting reading.
1. Verbs
On of the remarks was that synonyms for verbs are essential for easy
playing. I agree totally. In Inform this can be done with the grammarfile.
It shouldn't be a direct translation, because every language has its own
synonyms and homonyms. Rather, in translating you should think of your own
language as flexible as possible and use the english grammarfile merely as
a very good example.
There is one problem. In the english version a choice was made not to use
phrases in the form "use this for that". Instead of "use the brass key to
open the rusty lock", you have to type "unlock the rusty lock with the
brass key". The reason is that the verb "use" is too general, and for
including it you more or less have to repeat the whole grammarfile for this
one particular verb (eg. "use the feather to tickle the don").
In Dutch this sort of order of words is much more common and it's not
possible to avoid it.
Maybe there is a way to evaluate input sentences not in the way Inform
does, which basically is in a linear way starting with the first word
cutting down a tree of choices, and then taking the second word.
Actually, I don't think it can be done in another way. Who knows?
2. Nouns
Most european languages use gender. For using gender you have to introduce
three properties: masculin, feminin and neutral, for most languages use
these three. These properties are needed for use in functions that deal
with plural, articles, pronouns etcetera.
The second thing is irregular plurals. The standard Inform library gives
the opportunity to define irregular plurals. So there is no real problem.
In Dutch, though, there are two regular ways to say the plural of a word
depending on the noun. Some plurals end with "-en" and others with "-s".
In this case you it might be better to replace the standard Plural() with
a function that takes care of both plurals. How does this work for other
languages?
3. Articles, demonstrative pronouns and relative pronouns
In most languages gender and cases are reflected in articles and pronouns.
I suggest to replace the Defart() function by something like the
following (example in german):
[ Defart obj case;
if (obj has masculin)
{
if (case=1) print "der"
if (case=2) print "des";
if (case=3) print "dem";
print "den";
}
if (obj has feminin)
{
if (case=1 or case=4) print "die";
print "der";
}
if (obj has neutral)
{
if (case=2) print "des";
if (case=3) print "dem";
print "das";
}
print " ";
PrintShortName(obj); ]
So that
print "Du siehst "; Defart(obj,4); ".";
will give "Du siehst den Mann." (You see the man) or "Du siehst die Frau."
(You see the woman), and
print "Du gibst "; Defart(obj1,3); Indefart(obj2,4); ".";
will give "Du gibst dem Mann einen Apfel." (You give the man an apple).
Along the same line you could replace Indefart() by Indefart(obj,case) for
indefinite articles, and introduce Relnoun(obj,case) for relative pronouns
and Demnoun(obj,case) for demonstrative pronouns.
As I write this I see that the situation in German is worse than in Dutch
or English because in the genitive case masculin not only the articles
change but the word itself as well. This is also the case in some of the
latin and in all the slavic languages. Maybe you have some additional
suggestions?
4. How to address the player?
It is a minor problem, but most languages have two ways of addressing the
people spoken to. For example in French "tu" for someone you know very
well, and "vous" for addressing someone in a polite way.
In English it doesn't matter, but it would be interesting to know how
people have experienced the parser. Maybe it is an idea to introduce a
function "tutoyer on" to switch between the polite and the more intimate
way. As for myself, I know my computer very well, and I would like the
parser to address me as "tu" in most of the cases. How would you feel
about it?
5. Standard abbreviations and debugging verbs
Because the Inform language itself is based on english, I suggest to keep
all the debbuging messages and verbs in that language. The language of the
sourcecode is not really relevant to the game.
In addition I would suggest to keep the well-established abbreviations,
like "x", "l", "i" and "z". It is comfortable for the experienced player
not to have to get used to other pavlovian fingermovements. For the same
reason there should the english synonyms available for some of the
metaverbs, like "save", "restore" and "undo".
6. On portabiblity
In my view, the Inform libraries have a great capability to be translated
in other European languages. Especially because of the separate
grammarfile and the library message function L___M().
Still, translating everything needs digging into every file for sentences
and parts of sentences. Maybe it would be a good idea for newer libraries
(7.xx?) to seperate these (parts of) sentences even more from the
functions itself, which basically means creating a language dependend part
with some functions like the ones mentioned above, that can be replaced
and a grammarfile on the one hand. And on the other hand a language
independent part using the several functions defined in the first part.
I'm not sure this is possible. What do you think?
I am happy to hear your ideas,
Greetings,
Kees Wiebering.
PAZ SALGADO
Kees Wiebering (wieb...@saluton.iaf.nl) wrote:
: 1. Verbs
: Maybe there is a way to evaluate input sentences not in the way Inform
: does, which basically is in a linear way starting with the first word
: cutting down a tree of choices, and then taking the second word.
: Actually, I don't think it can be done in another way. Who knows?
I don't know if I am completely wrong, but I'm very surprised! Does Inform
take player's input word by word and try to make a choice?? So, Is there no
parser at all in Inform but the world description?
In my own system (CAECHO?), that understand Spanish, the parser analyze the
whole phrase (until and 'phrase separator' is found) and try to obtain which
words are principal verbs, object of action, supplement of action and so
using the spanish grammar laws (using 'preposition' for instance). I can do
that because it is an PAWs-like system. I know that after use something
so confortable and easy to standard like Inform, it may be just impossible
to think about change its philosophy, but... what about a more intelligence
parser? One that acctually analyze de phrase, and put fisrt verb, object, and
so apart and then the world react to those *analyzed* words.
I expect not to be much wrong. Sorry, I have a very poor english.
: 2. Nouns
: The second thing is irregular plurals. The standard Inform library gives
: the opportunity to define irregular plurals. So there is no real problem.
: In Dutch, though, there are two regular ways to say the plural of a word
: depending on the noun. Some plurals end with "-en" and others with "-s".
: In this case you it might be better to replace the standard Plural() with
: a function that takes care of both plurals. How does this work for other
: languages?
In Spanish we have plurals with "s" and other with "es", and some words
that are allways plural like "gafas" (glasses).
: 4. How to address the player?
: In English it doesn't matter, but it would be interesting to know how
: people have experienced the parser. Maybe it is an idea to introduce a
: function "tutoyer on" to switch between the polite and the more intimate
: way. As for myself, I know my computer very well, and I would like the
: parser to address me as "tu" in most of the cases. How would you feel
: about it?
Well, I think the parser can address player as "tu". No problem. In spanish
could be really strange an "adventure" addresses to me "Usted".
: 5. Standard abbreviations and debugging verbs
: In addition I would suggest to keep the well-established abbreviations,
: like "x", "l", "i" and "z". It is comfortable for the experienced player
: not to have to get used to other pavlovian fingermovements. For the same
: reason there should the english synonyms available for some of the
: metaverbs, like "save", "restore" and "undo".
OK! But you need to introduce your own abbreviations, for instance in Spain
we use to type "m" (from "mirar") instead of "l" (from "look").
: 6. On portabiblity
What about doing countries libraries? I mean, we can do spanish libraries,
dutch libraries and so; and centralize in some way all this work
Meliton Rodriguez, from 115 room
Bryan Hollebone
Kees Wiebering <wieb...@saluton.iaf.nl> wrote:
...
Some good points sniped
...
>4. How to address the player?
>
>It is a minor problem, but most languages have two ways of addressing the
>people spoken to. For example in French "tu" for someone you know very
>well, and "vous" for addressing someone in a polite way.
>In English it doesn't matter, but it would be interesting to know how
>people have experienced the parser. Maybe it is an idea to introduce a
>function "tutoyer on" to switch between the polite and the more intimate
>way. As for myself, I know my computer very well, and I would like the
>parser to address me as "tu" in most of the cases. How would you feel
>about it?
My feeling is that this is so dependent on the context of the adventure and
the language that it should really be left up to the author.
French, as you point out, has two forms for the second person pronoun:
the singular "tu" and the plural "vous"
In France, the singular form is intimate, and considered
impolite or condescending if used without knowing the other person well.
The plural form, vous, is therefore used for most public conversation.
In Quebec (and other parts of francophone Canada, Acadia, esp.) the
familiar, tu, is much more common in casual conversation, while someone
who uses "vous" a lot is considered overly formal---a stuffed shirt, so
to speak.
Given this, I would think that provision (at least in French) would need to be
made for both forms, to be used at the author's discretion.
By the bye, isn't "du" considered rude in German too? My (very, very limited)
experience suggests that "sie" will get you a beer and "du" will get you
slapped...
BPH
Mark J Musante
Bryan Hollebone (bhol...@superior.carleton.ca) wrote:
> By the bye, isn't "du" considered rude in German too? My (very, very limited)
> experience suggests that "sie" will get you a beer and "du" will get you
> slapped...
And now you get to play "Choose your Response"!
1) Sounds like a real dosie of a problem.
--
or
--
2) And all along I thought you had to pay *money* for beer!
- Mark
the anarchist