Is TADS the only language? AGT or others gone?
Jeff
Infocom and TADS. Are there other gorups for the other languages or is it
just because everyone uses TADS? I posted earlier about writing a game in
AGT but didn't get a single reply. I have also been surfing various
INT-FICTION sites and on some it says that AGT is still quite popular and on
others it says that few use it because its not powerful enough. The game I'm
writing has so far not been limited in any way by the "power" of the
language. I tried looking into TADS but it seems to look a lot like C or C++
and those languages gave me headaches whenever I tried to learn them!
Generally, I was just wondering if there was anyone on the group still using
AGT or other languages not C-based. I would hate to have to erase my hard
work learning AGT writing a game and then having to wipe the slate clean and
learn TADS just to get anyones interest/attention.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Generally, I was just wondering if there was anyone on the group
> still using
> AGT or other languages not C-based. I would hate to have to erase
> my hard work learning AGT writing a game and then having to wipe
> the slate clean and
> learn TADS just to get anyones interest/attention.
As a matter of fact, there was a rather long thread recently because
someone (one Mike Snyder, IIRC) is using QuickBasic to write a work
of IF for this year's competition. AdventureBuilder and Hugo and
ALAN have followings as well. I don't know about AGT, but don't
give up immediately -- a lot of people get to the newsgroup a bit
sporadically.
Inform and TADS do hold the majority for users of this group.
I use Inform myself. But there are people using alternatives.
Brandon Van Avery uses email ;-)
Yr. Obd't & Humble Servant,
Jonadab the Unsightly One.
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Send replies to username@isp, where username is jonadab
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>others it says that few use it because its not powerful enough. The game I'm
>writing has so far not been limited in any way by the "power" of the
AGT has plenty of power for most IF, IMO nearly all the current IF could
be written in it. But, the parser is built into the interpreter and it's
rather awful IMO. I started with AGT but never got far, it was just too
confusing so I learned TADS and then Inform.
>language. I tried looking into TADS but it seems to look a lot like C or C++
>and those languages gave me headaches whenever I tried to learn them!
I know what you mean, I'm personally a fan of BASIC myself, even Assembler
is less confusing to me then C is.
>Generally, I was just wondering if there was anyone on the group still using
>AGT or other languages not C-based. I would hate to have to erase my hard
Well, I currently don't use AGT, like I said I couldn't make any sense of
some of it, but I know it is used by a few people still.
A couple months ago I took a look at AdvSys and was very impressed. It
looks like a very easy to learn language and except for the nearly useless
documantation it's quite good.
>work learning AGT writing a game and then having to wipe the slate clean and
>learn TADS just to get anyones interest/attention.
If a new game is released, I'll download the interpreter to play it. As a
matter of fact, it's tads games I usually avoid, something about them tend
to anoy me for some reason (might be the parser, I'm not sure).
Patrick
Jay Goemmer
> I posted earlier about writing a game in AGT but didn't get a single reply.
Some of us who are familiar with it seem to have an inordinate amount
of "outside" responsibilities (family, work, home ownership, etc.).
> Generally, I was just wondering if there was anyone on the group still using
> AGT
I used Robert Masenten's AGT-compatible "Magx" compiler . . .
http://netnow.micron.net/~jgoemmer/magx.html
. .for my Comp97 entry E-MAILBOX.
http://netnow.micron.net/~jgoemmer/emailbox.html
> I would hate to have to erase my hard work learning AGT writing a game
> and then having to wipe the slate clean and learn TADS just to get
> anyones interest/attention.
Learning a specific system is invaluable in figuring how game design,
the use of flags, timers, and so on. Don't consider it a waste of time.
It's part of "paying your dues."
--Gome
wo...@one.net
Hi Pat,
>A couple months ago I took a look at AdvSys and was very impressed. It
>looks like a very easy to learn language and except for the nearly useless
>documantation it's quite good.
Ack! You don't want to mess with AdvSys. Trust me. :) I wrote a manual
for it, email me if you want a copy.
Advsys is (like Lisp) something of a write-only language. Debugging is
very difficult and heaven help you if you need to debug code more than
3 months old. <shaking head>
And the nesting only makes matters worse, you can *easily* nest 10
levels deep.
I wrote 4 levels of a Zork/Advent style game in AdvSys, and was very
happy with it, because in 1983? it was pretty much the only game in
town (unless you wanted to write your own parser). But I got away from
my game for 6 months, came back and had to spend two weeks
re-immersing myself. I sort of lost interest after that. :)
Respectfully,
Wolf
"The world is my home, it's just that some rooms are draftier than
others". -- Wolf
Darin Johnson
> Advsys is (like Lisp) something of a write-only language.
I strongly disagree that Lisp is write-only; you were thinking of C++
maybe? :-)
--
Darin Johnson
da...@usa.net.delete_me
David Rush
> wo...@one.net writes:
>
> > Advsys is (like Lisp) something of a write-only language.
> I strongly disagree that Lisp is write-only; you were thinking of C++
> maybe? :-)
Maybe he doesn't use Emacs? :)
david rush
--
Who finds elisp code to be "summertime light reading"...
wo...@one.net
Hi Darin,
>> Advsys is (like Lisp) something of a write-only language.
>
>I strongly disagree that Lisp is write-only; you were thinking of C++
>maybe? :-)
Nope. Lisp. Land of the infinite parentheses. :) The thing is, in
AdvSys I commented every line of code, most *especially* the single
parentheses that closed loops, if tests and the like.
Debugging was still a bitch.
TADS follows C syntax, but allows you to #define some syntax sugar for
yourself. (TADS already has *way* too much compiler sugar for my
taste! :))
I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't have
to use Aikido on...
Inform isn't it, Hugo isn't it, Alan isn't it. <sigh>
Darin Johnson
> >I strongly disagree that Lisp is write-only; you were thinking of C++
> >maybe? :-)
>
> Nope. Lisp. Land of the infinite parentheses. :) The thing is, in
> AdvSys I commented every line of code, most *especially* the single
> parentheses that closed loops, if tests and the like.
The parentheses are a good thing. Very very easy to parse, and
trivial for editors to understand. If someone messes up indentation,
it's trivial to fix it back up. Then you mentally ignore the
parentheses and concentrate on the indentation.
Lisp syntax means you don't have to keep inventing new syntax forms
for each new construct, no remembering rules of precedence, no
forgetting of semicolons, etc.
Of course, using vi or emacs helps a lot.
> I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
> require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't have
> to use Aikido on...
Python? That has it's own drawbacks (particularly, those who use vi
and define tab lengths to not be 8).
--
Darin Johnson
da...@usa.net.delete_me
Andrew Plotkin
> > I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
> > require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't have
> > to use Aikido on...
> Python? That has it's own drawbacks (particularly, those who use vi
> and define tab lengths to not be 8).
ML. At least, that's how I think of it -- Lisp with a sensible syntax.
And good types.
I'm way behind in ML; haven't looked at it since 1991 or so.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Allen Garvin
Nope. Lisp. Land of the infinite parentheses. :)
Uh, you got the acronym wrong. It's
Land of the Infinite Stupid Parentheses
^ ^ ^ ^
I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't
have to use Aikido on...
CLOS
--
Allen Garvin kisses are a better fate
--------------------------------------------- than wisdom
eare...@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil e e cummings
Bruce Kamen
Jeff wrote:
> I've noticed on this group that the only discussion is generally about
> Infocom and TADS. Are there other gorups for the other languages or is it
> just because everyone uses TADS? I posted earlier about writing a game in
> AGT but didn't get a single reply. I have also been surfing various
> INT-FICTION sites and on some it says that AGT is still quite popular and on
> others it says that few use it because its not powerful enough. The game I'm
> writing has so far not been limited in any way by the "power" of the
> language. I tried looking into TADS but it seems to look a lot like C or C++
> and those languages gave me headaches whenever I tried to learn them!
> Generally, I was just wondering if there was anyone on the group still using
> AGT or other languages not C-based. I would hate to have to erase my hard
> work learning AGT writing a game and then having to wipe the slate clean and
> learn TADS just to get anyones interest/attention.
--
----------------------------------------------------
Bruce Kamen
Shuttle Interface Manager (unofficially acting)
HST Flight Systems and Servicing Project
NASA GSFC
Mail Code 442
Greenbelt, MD 20771
Phone: 301 286 8945
Fax: 301 286 1779
bka...@hst.nasa.gov or Bruce.G...@gsfc.nasa.gov
----------------------------------------------------
wo...@one.net
Hi Allen,
>Uh, you got the acronym wrong. It's
>
> Land of the Infinite Stupid Parentheses
> ^ ^ ^ ^
I was being kind. :)
> I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
> require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't
> have to use Aikido on...
>
>CLOS
Haven't seen that one, Andrew Plotkin suggested Python, which looks
very TADS'ish without the syntax mess, but alas also without a
pre-built parser.
Think I'll try my hand at creating yet another text adventure
language, maybe call it PADS! :)
Python looks like it would make a good cross platform system too. At
least it supports Linux, Windows, Mac, Beos, etc. Probably won't run
on a Pilot, tho. :)
okbl...@usa.net
wo...@one.net wrote:
>
> Think I'll try my hand at creating yet another text adventure
> language, maybe call it PADS! :)
>
But "Yet Another Text Adventure" lends itself to such a great acronym itself:
YATA. :-)
[ok]
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Joyce Haslam
<bka...@hst.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> I've noticed on this group that the only discussion is generally about
>> Infocom and TADS. Are there other gorups for the other languages or is
>> it just because everyone uses TADS?
>> hard work learning AGT writing a game and then having to wipe the slate
>> clean and learn TADS just to get anyones interest/attention.
In theory, it is the game that will get attention. If you can write a good
or an unusual game people will talk about it. That is, if you have written
it in a form that people can use; not everyone has Windross or a Mac.
Also if you have a specific problem in coding you are likely to get replies
here - some of them helpful. It is the general question that gets ignored or
starts a discussion of gender specific pronouns.
Your hard work learning AGT will help you when you come to learn another
language. I regarded myself as a bit of an expert in AdvSys, let real life
intervene, and came back to rewrite the game in inform. It is all grist to
the mill, as t'chap said.
Pick a language - one that has appeared in a subject line here - and get
writing :-)
This is my cat's opinion only.
Joyce.
--
___________________________
Joyce Haslam / dljh...@argonet.co.uk
___________________________/
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de
wo...@one.net wrote:
:>> Advsys is (like Lisp) something of a write-only language.
:>I strongly disagree that Lisp is write-only; you were thinking of C++
:>maybe? :-)
: Nope. Lisp. Land of the infinite parentheses. :) The thing is, in
: AdvSys I commented every line of code, most *especially* the single
: parentheses that closed loops, if tests and the like.
: Debugging was still a bitch.
Actually, what brought me off of AdvSys was the rather limited
memory space the compiler allowed, not the LISP-like syntax
(though when I attempted to design my very own IF-language/system
(don't we do it all ;-) ) I chose a syntax much more akin to ALAN
(ThoNi? One of you listening? What about V3, the one with the classes?)
- I dislike C almost as much as Windoze.).
: I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
: require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't have
: to use Aikido on...
: Inform isn't it, Hugo isn't it, Alan isn't it. <sigh>
Indeed.
Btw., a) you probably don't have to be afraid that I'll ever finish
my own IF system. I'm notoriously slow and get diverted all too easily
by other things ;-) , and b) for a few moments in time I indeed considered
naming it YAAL (Yet Another Adventure Language) ... phew, we
escaped! ;-)
Ad Astra!
JuL
P.S: AdvSys (1.2b) IS available for the AMIGA! (On the Aminet, if maybe not
on GMD.)
--
ler...@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
J"urgen ,,JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
http://sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de
okbl...@usa.net wrote:
: In article <35ac96e4...@news.one.net>,
: wo...@one.net wrote:
:> Think I'll try my hand at creating yet another text adventure
:> language, maybe call it PADS! :)
: But "Yet Another Text Adventure" lends itself to such a great acronym itself:
: YATA. :-)
What about ,,Yet Another Writing System'' - ,,YAWS''?
;-)
Ad Astra!
JuL
--
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de Realit"at ist eine Kr"ucke f"ur
J"urgen ,,JuL'' Lerch diejenigen, die mit der Fantasie nicht
http://sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/ zurechtkommen
Michael Baum
>> language, maybe call it PADS! :)
>
>But "Yet Another Text Adventure" lends itself to such a great acronym itself:
>YATA. :-)
Whatever happened to that proposal to write a text adventure authoring
system in SENDMAIL macros?
-maab
wo...@one.net
Hi Jul,
>: I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
>: require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't have
>: to use Aikido on...
>:
>: Inform isn't it, Hugo isn't it, Alan isn't it. <sigh>
>
>Indeed.
>
>Btw., a) you probably don't have to be afraid that I'll ever finish
>my own IF system. I'm notoriously slow and get diverted all too easily
>by other things ;-) , and b) for a few moments in time I indeed considered
>naming it YAAL (Yet Another Adventure Language) ... phew, we
>escaped! ;-)
Andrew steered me toward Python, it looks like a wonderful language,
well suited for IF. In addition, somebody emailed me a link to a
Python game system called PUB (Python Universe Builder), which has a
parser, game save/restore code, and all the infrastructure goodies I'm
likely to need.
I think I'm going to combine the stuff I liked best about TADS parser
and the AdvSys logic cycle. Along with my library-in-progress and
Python's easy syntax I might actually get Thief's Quest written before
the mullenium! <grin>
And unless anyone strongly objects, I'm probably going to call it
PADS. Or maybe PAWS. <chuckle>
Stephen Griffiths
>[snip]
>> I wish there was an elegant language that supported OOP, didn't
>> require semi-colons and curly braces, and had a parser you didn't
>> have to use Aikido on...
>very TADS'ish without the syntax mess, but alas also without a
>pre-built parser.
did you look at Python Universe Builder? There is a 'PUB' homepage at
http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/python/pub/
among other features the 'PUB' page claims it has
a "sophisticated sentence parser (in some ways, better than Infocom's)
"
>[snip]
--
SteveG.
(Please remove the typo from my address
if you want to send me mail.)
Linards Ticmanis
>
> ML. At least, that's how I think of it -- Lisp with a sensible syntax.
> And good types.
>
> I'm way behind in ML; haven't looked at it since 1991 or so.
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
I´ve had to do this for one semester. Don´t. The type system will end up
killing you, e.g. not-so-polymorphic polymorphism, "smart(!?)" type
inference, etc. Be prepared for error after error, most of them obscure
to the max. The syntax mixes what´s bad about Lisp, what´s bad about
Pascal, and what´s bad about BASIC. Tons of keywords, every structured
command has its own little syntax, Lispish
function-in-function-in-function-in-functions, general wordiness,
not-quite-OOP, obscurity coupled with inconsistency, many things require
"hackish" workarounds etc.
Even the prof had to admit it´s pretty sh*tty at the end of the term.
Consider yourself warned.
--
Linards Ticmanis
Important: If your mail to me bounces, you might have hit a spam filter.
Please
resend it to: mailto:liti...@stud.uni-sb.de Please only do so if the
mail
really bounces.
Andrew Plotkin
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>
> > ML. At least, that's how I think of it -- Lisp with a sensible syntax.
> > And good types.
>
>
> I've had to do this for one semester. Don=B4t. The type system will end=
> up
> killing you, e.g. not-so-polymorphic polymorphism, "smart(!?)" type
> inference, etc. Be prepared for error after error, most of them obscure
> to the max.
Note for the reader: yes, we're talking about the exact same language
features here.
Daryl McCullough
>
>Linards Ticmanis (ticm...@coli.uni-sb.de) wrote:
>> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>>
>> > ML. At least, that's how I think of it -- Lisp with a sensible syntax.
>> > And good types.
>>
>> AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
>>
>> I've had to do this for one semester. Don=B4t. The type system will end=
>> up killing you, e.g. not-so-polymorphic polymorphism, "smart(!?)" type
>> inference, etc. Be prepared for error after error, most of them obscure
>> to the max.
>
>Note for the reader: yes, we're talking about the exact same language
>features here.
My experience with ML was that, yes, it was very difficult to get
a program to even type check---but, usually all the errors were bugs
that would only have been caught at runtime in other programming
languages. For the most part, if a program passed the ML type checker,
it was bug-free.
Daryl McCullough
CoGenTex, Inc.
Ithaca, NY