Compass (was: Re: IF Pet Peeves)
Mona
Carl Muckenhoupt wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:43:37 GMT, 11dig...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >3) Why use compass directions for just about all traveling? Is the
> >player supposed to be carrying a compass with her?
>
> I think Marnie Parker hit the nail on the head in explaining this. It
> isn't just a matter of habit or ease (although the fact that compass
> directions are supported by the standard libraries is certainly an
> influence). Rather, it appeals to the kinaesthetic sense, and thus
> creates a greater sense of place than the more abstract
> go-to-room-name system.
I've been meaning to post this in the IF for children thread, but just as
an interesting data point in this context:
In Science magazine (this year, May 19, vol 288, # 5469, pp. 1156 - 1159)
was an interesting news bit about endangered languages. One paragraph
dealt with spacial concepts in different cultures. To summarize: there
are (few) cultures in which spatial relations such as 'left' and 'right'
have no meaning. Instead, people orient themselves using global
coordinates and are therefore required to (as the author puts it)
"continually [run] a mental compass and a positioning system." Members of
such a cultural group won't be able to relate "my left eye is blind" but
will have no problem understanding the question "what's wrong with your
northwestern eye?"
The fact that such languages are few and far between probably says
something about their flexibility ("fitness" as it were) in an
evolutional sense. Nevertheless it is interesting to note that the human
mind evidently has no trouble conceptualizing locations and directions
relative to a global coordinate system. (I'll leave the universal
grammar/Chomsky implications as an exercize to the reader.)
If you're lucky enough to have an electronic Science subscription (either
yourself or through your school), the full article can be found at
<http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/288/5469/1156>
If I may quote the relevant passage:
:Many languages, including English, express spatial concepts using
:relative coordinates established through the planes of the body, such as
:left-right and front-back. But Levinson found languages that use very
:different systems. Guugu Yimithirr, an endangered Australian language
:spoken by fewer than 800 people, uses a fixed environmental system of
:four named directions that resemble north, south, east, and west.
:Speakers modify the four words to yield some 50 terms that indicate such
:things as motion toward or away from a direction. They use the same
:terminology to describe both landscape and small-scale space, for
:example: "The school is to the west of the river" and "There's an ant on
:your eastern leg."
:The Guugu Yimithirr terminology reflects an entirely different way of
:conceptualizing a scene, says Levinson. It requires laying out all
:memories in terms of the four directions and continually running
:mental compass and a positioning system.
:Levinson has now investigated a similar phenomenon in the Mayan language
:Tzeltal, in work in press and co-authored with Penelope Brown, also of
:the Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics. Brown gathered 600 hours
:of videotape of 15 Tzeltal-speaking children performing various tasks
:and found that children as young as 4 years old have mastered the
:positioning system. Children were asked to describe the arrangement of
:toys on a table, then turn 180 degrees and describe an identical
:arrangement arrayed in front of them. English-speaking children rotate
:their coordinate system as they turn--left becomes right. But for
:Tzeltal-speaking children, north was always north and south remained
:south.
:Levinson concludes that even spatial thinking is learned, not innate.
:Rather than starting from a biologically set concept of space, children
:quickly learn the system used in their culture. Concurs psycholinguist
:Slobin: "The results show flexibility for how we can organize spatial
:concepts for talking and probably thinking."
<TA>
So no more whining about how horribly unnatural compass directions are,
ok?
</TA>
-mona
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
11dig...@my-deja.com
I can see how you'd do this if you only made *sharp* turns, but isn't it
difficult to keep track of directions when traveling along a gently
curving trail?
Greg Ewing
>
> If I may quote the relevant passage:
>
> :spoken by fewer than 800 people, uses a fixed environmental system of
> :four named directions that resemble north, south, east, and west.
Comp prediction: There will now be at least one
game in Guugu Yimithirr.
--
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand
To get my email address, please visit my web page:
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> I can see how you'd do this if you only made *sharp* turns, but isn't it
> difficult to keep track of directions when traveling along a gently
> curving trail?
Only on an overcast night on a trail you don't know.
--
"Popularity and quality are orthogonal." -- jonadab
Philip Goetz
> So no more whining about how horribly unnatural compass directions are,
> ok?
> </TA>
Right. It isn't the compass directions that are unnatural -- it's
buildings.
Using compass directions is natural as long as you are always outside
in a landscape that you know well.
Phil G.
Mona Wuerz
"Philip Goetz" <pgo...@i-a-i.com> wrote:
> Right. It isn't the compass directions that are unnatural -- it's
> buildings.
> Using compass directions is natural as long as you are always outside
> in a landscape that you know well.
I suppose it would be interesting to place a member of said culture in an
environment without connection to a global coordinate system - say, send
them blindfolded into a colossal cave. My guess is that in such a case,
they'll nevertheless establish a (local, but still external) reference
system that is valid for as long as they are confined to that specific
environment.
Incidentally, this scenario precisely describes the mental reference
frame that one needs to navigate a work of IF via compass directions.
Curiously, we've been shown that compass directions work relatively
effortlessly in IF for some tens of years now. Still there's discussion
as to why they work. I'll contend that establishing an external reference
frame to navigate in is exactly what anyone does in a unfamiliar terrain.
The alternative is not (as has been pointed out upthread) to use right/
left style navigation, since any location will look different depending
where the player enters it from - which is not how we would perceive a
real, physical location. Of course it may be possible to do just that for
dramatic effect (huntdark, for ex.), where the player's progress is
deliberately [sic] impeded.
Whether then in the general case the thought north coincides with a
(hypothetical) magnetic north is really just a nitpick, and the only
reasonable alternative would be to call the in-game compass directions by
different names. But given conventions, that would be very inconvenient.
And yes (to come back to the IF for children discussion), children will
even have the advantage of not analyzing what to adults appears paradox.
They'll just do what intuition dictates - use compass directions.
(alright, this has been on my mind since that Science article in May,
what can I do)
KayCee
news:39D7D52B...@my.signature...
> Comp prediction: There will now be at least one
> game in Guugu Yimithirr.
>
...KayCee