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Admiral Jota

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Mar 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/10/97
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tes...@cibc.ca writes:
> Julian Arnold wrote:

>> Look ought to be a meta command. To me it means "be aware of my
>> surroundings in a general sense." This is something most of us can do
>> without making a special effort. The special effort comes when you
>> examine particulars.

>Which leads me to ask: Is this a common feeling, so far as fairness to
>the player is concerned? (Hoping not to beg the question, of course, of
>whether sadistic game authors care about fairness to the player.)

I always thought it would be a nice thing to give us LOOK for free. I
often (using Frotz) type L or I, and then immediately hit Alt-U (Undo,
by the interpreter).

>I've wondered about this, too. But my conclusion differed from Mr.
>Arnold's in that I figured that if I were really, say, trapped in some
>underground cavern and looking for a way out, kept trying different
>things, failed at each, and periodically put my hands on my hips, and
>hmmmed whilst taking stock of my surroundings, then maybe I oughta get
>docked a turn for that.

Well, you could say the same thing about thinking about a puzzle. It's not
likely that my character would figure out the solution to a difficult
puzzle in the same amount of time it takes him to turn on the lamp, but he
does, because I'm the one doing the thinking. I don't think that giving us
a free LOOK or INV would majorly hurt the realism of the game, but it
would be very convenient.
--
/<-= Admiral Jota =->\
-< <-= jo...@tiac.net =-> >-
\<-=- -= -=- -= -=->/

Mary K. Kuhner

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Mar 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/10/97
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In article <8580081...@dejanews.com> tes...@cibc.ca writes:
> Julian Arnold wrote:

>> Look ought to be a meta command. To me it means "be aware of my
>> surroundings in a general sense."

>I've wondered about this, too. But my conclusion differed from Mr.


>Arnold's in that I figured that if I were really, say, trapped in some
>underground cavern and looking for a way out, kept trying different
>things, failed at each, and periodically put my hands on my hips, and
>hmmmed whilst taking stock of my surroundings, then maybe I oughta get
>docked a turn for that.

I'd like it to be meta. I have a poor sense of direction, and often
have to do "look" to see if it's east or west back to the grand
stairway. I have botched more timed sequences than I care to remember
because I did too many of these, or went west when I was supposed to go
east. (I think I botched the prologue to Christminster four times this
way.) I don't find this entertaining.

I don't generally think of it as taking stock of my surroundings; for
example, if I know I want to go to the grand staircase, in real life
I'd just spot the door and scoot (assuming I know what it looks like, or
have a general sense of which way is which). Free "look" would help
make up for the fact that I don't remember real places in "east" and
"west" terms and it's not terribly intuitive for me in games.

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

Will Grzanich

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
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In article <robbj95.858034201@octarine>, rob...@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au
says...

>Perhaps, but if I use the "look" command, it more often just means that
>I've forgotten whether the path leading up the mountain is to the north
>or to the south (or something similar). The character will hardly need
>to stand around with hands on hips to asertain that. I agree with the
>original poster that "look" would do better as a meta-command,
>particularly given that using "verbose" mode allows many 'free' glances.

Hmm...I just had an idea; I'll leave it up to you guys to decide whether
it's a good one or not... ;)

How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
this:

>exits

North - Throne Room
East - A Long Corridor
Southwest - ?

where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
difficult to write...

-Will
--
"All you need is love." | Check out my groovy web page at
-John Lennon | http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~grzanich!
| New and improved!!


Francis Irving

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
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On 11 Mar 1997 01:45:45 GMT, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) wrote:

>How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
>this:
>
>>exits
>
>North - Throne Room
>East - A Long Corridor
>Southwest - ?
>
>where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
>of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
>not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
>the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
>difficult to write...
>
>-Will
>--
>"All you need is love." | Check out my groovy web page at
> -John Lennon | http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~grzanich!
> | New and improved!!
>

This is a good idea. It was something I missed when I first played
Inform games - previously I had only been exposed to Magnetic scrolls,
which I think has "exits".

Francis.

Brad O`Donnell

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to Will Grzanich

Will Grzanich wrote:

>
> Hmm...I just had an idea; I'll leave it up to you guys to decide whether
> it's a good one or not... ;)
>

> How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> this:
>
> >exits
>
> North - Throne Room
> East - A Long Corridor
> Southwest - ?
>
> where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
> of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
> not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
> the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
> difficult to write...

Well, there are a couple of problems (at least with the standard
library).
First, the easiest way to make this is to run through the x_to
properties
and print out the information for each direction. The problem with
this is
that properties like n_to and s_to don't necessarily have to point to
specific
objects... they can be routines or strings, or whatever, resulting in
terrible
output like:

North - Throne Room
East - [ no such property in routine ]
Southwest - "The river blocks the way."

If you have a direction which kills you instantly, you die when you
type
"exits".

So, what's a better way? I'd try making a set of properties, (which
would
come in handy for all sorts of things, like sense-path tracing, and
"goto"
verbs) called ver_n, ver_s, ver_sw ... etc. These contain the
/actual/
locations that connect along the map.

For testing whether a player knows about a given room or not, the
visited
property is probably quite enough... some would argue that some areas
are
plainly visible and obvious, and they should be known beforehand. Hmm.

In that case, I would make the ver_x properties additive, and then
you might
be able to write something like this...

ver_n ThroneRoom,
ver_s Bridge 'visible';

Or something like that... (my experience with the behaviors of these
properties is somewhat rusty).


--
Brad O'Donnell
"A story is a string of moments, held together by memory."

Julian Arnold

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to

In article <5g2dg9$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Will Grzanich

<URL:mailto:grza...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Hmm...I just had an idea; I'll leave it up to you guys to decide whether
> it's a good one or not... ;)
>
> How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> this:
>
> >exits
>
> North - Throne Room
> East - A Long Corridor
> Southwest - ?
>
> where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
> of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
> not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
> the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
> difficult to write...

Well, this sort of thing has been done before. At least some of the
Level 9 games had an EXITS command (Lancelot, say) as, I believe, did
the Magnetic Scrolls games. A while ago, some AGT enthusiasts were
lobbying for such a command. Really, the lack of EXITS is another
tradition started by Infocom.

I've not seen the command work quite as you describe. Usually, it would
be more like this:
>EXITS
You can go north, east, or southwest.

It is easy to implement. One way to do it (at least, in Hugo/Inform)
might be to have the command run the rooms cant_go property, which
should be rigged up to print the available exits.

Or you could further automate the process and achieve similar (if
plainer) effects by checking the rooms n_to, etc. properties, ie (in
Hugo):
print "You can go ";
j=0 : for (i=n_to; i <= out_to; ++i) {
if location.i {
if j++ { print ", "; }
select i
case n_to { print "North"; }
case s_to { print "South"; }
[etc]
}
}
if j = 0 { print "absolutely nowhere!";
print "."

Or you could have another property, exits, which prints your own text
when run.

I quite like an EXITS (meta :) command.

Jools
--
"For small erections may be finished by their first architects; grand
ones, true ones, ever leave the copestone to posterity. God keep me
from ever completing anything." -- Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"


Julian Arnold

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to

In article <jota.858032170@sunspot>, Admiral Jota

<URL:mailto:jo...@tiac.net> wrote:
>
> Well, you could say the same thing about thinking about a puzzle. It's not
> likely that my character would figure out the solution to a difficult
> puzzle in the same amount of time it takes him to turn on the lamp, but he
> does, because I'm the one doing the thinking. I don't think that giving us
> a free LOOK or INV would majorly hurt the realism of the game, but it
> would be very convenient.

Yup, INV is the other one. Really, LOOK and INV are commands for the
convenience of the *player*, not the *character*, like VERBOSE, UNDO,
and SAVE, and as such should be meta commands as well. The character
already knows where he is, what his general surroundings look like, and
what he's carrying. In all those games I often claim to have partly
written, these commands are meta.

Bill Hoggett

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to

Francis Irving <francis...@vegauk.co.uk> wrote:

>On 11 Mar 1997 01:45:45 GMT, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) wrote:

>>How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
>>this:
>>
>>>exits
>>
>>North - Throne Room
>>East - A Long Corridor
>>Southwest - ?
>>
>>where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
>>of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
>>not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
>>the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
>>difficult to write...

>This is a good idea. It was something I missed when I first played


>Inform games - previously I had only been exposed to Magnetic scrolls,
>which I think has "exits".

Most of the latter Level 9 games had "exits" too, as well as "exits on"
and "exits off". With exits on an extra paragraph would get appended to
the room description saying something like: Exits lead north to a Throne
Room, east to a long corridor and southwest to a door. They didn't take
account of whether you've been there before.

Something of that ilk would probably work, but I don't like the idea of
an exits "table" as Will suggested and think the Level 9 approach better
suited. The "unknown" destination description would have to treated
with care since it should depend on "scope" *and* the player's gained
knowledge.


---
Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) <hog...@airtime.co.uk>

IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ?


mathew

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to

In article <5g22id$n...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,

mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> I'd like it to be meta. I have a poor sense of direction, and often
> have to do "look" to see if it's east or west back to the grand
> stairway. I have botched more timed sequences than I care to remember
> because I did too many of these, or went west when I was supposed to go
> east. (I think I botched the prologue to Christminster four times this
> way.) I don't find this entertaining.

Which brings up the point that if look *isn't* free, players who have
scrollback have a strong advantage in playing the game.

I can scroll back ridiculous amounts, but I still prefer to type "look",
especially if I've done something which has altered the surroundings.
Perhaps it's a reflection of my mildly obsessive-compulsive nature; I'll
drop the right set of objects for later, then reflexively "look" to make a
final check.

In article <5g2dg9$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will


Grzanich) wrote:
> How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> this:
>
> >exits
>
> North - Throne Room
> East - A Long Corridor
> Southwest - ?

I saw that as a standard command in adventure games in the early 80s; in
fact, I remember being surprised that Infocom didn't support it.

For me, the best solution would be if the clear and apparent exits were
displayed in the status line at all times.


mathew
--
-- Mac sales rose by over 61% in the US dealer channel in 1996.
-- x86 sales dropped by over 5% in the same period.
-- See <URL:http://www.ci.zd.com/news/macos.html> for the full story.

Michael Graham

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
to

In article <33257d10...@news.demon.co.uk>, Francis Irving
<francis...@vegauk.co.uk> writes

>On 11 Mar 1997 01:45:45 GMT, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) wrote:
>
>>How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
>>this:
>>
>>>exits
>>
>>North - Throne Room
>>East - A Long Corridor
>>Southwest - ?
>>
>>where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
>>of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
>>not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
>>the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
>>difficult to write...
>>

[SNIP]

>This is a good idea. It was something I missed when I first played
>Inform games - previously I had only been exposed to Magnetic scrolls,
>which I think has "exits".
>

>Francis.

I tried this for one of my inform games in progress, and will probably
try to retain the mechanism in any game I (HA!) complete. Although it's
not as simple to implement as it sounds. Often doors and directions
point to routines, rather than directly to other rooms. These routines
can print out messages, such as "You squeeze through the catflap easily,
now that you are only two feet tall". Any automatic system
has to take these routines into account or be misleadingly incomplete.

The way I've done it, all routines that are attached to directions or
doors are obliged (when a certain flag is set) to keep silent and return
only the destination (or false, if the routine wouldn't let the player
through). But it's extra coding, it's messy, and it's prone to errors
and omissions.

But I like it all the same.

--
Michael Graham mailto:mgr...@cega.demon.co.uk
Cega Ltd. Web Design Consultants http://www.cega.co.uk
London (Stratford), UK
Tel/Fax: +44-(0)181-221-2417

Andrew Plotkin

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
to

mathew (me...@pobox.com) wrote:
> In article <5g22id$n...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
> mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> > I'd like it to be meta. I have a poor sense of direction, and often
> > have to do "look" to see if it's east or west back to the grand
> > stairway. I have botched more timed sequences than I care to remember
> > because I did too many of these [...]

> Which brings up the point that if look *isn't* free, players who have
> scrollback have a strong advantage in playing the game.

Not an advantage, just a convenience. "Look. undo" still works.

> I can scroll back ridiculous amounts, but I still prefer to type "look",

I do too, but timed sequences are rare enough that I don't much care
either way.

> In article <5g2dg9$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will


> Grzanich) wrote:
> > How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> > this:

> fact, I remember being surprised that Infocom didn't support it.

> For me, the best solution would be if the clear and apparent exits were
> displayed in the status line at all times.

Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief. Yea, even from
the early Scott Adams games that listed exits, I thought it was a lousy idea.

I might add free look and inventory to a game I was writing, but not an
exits list.

--Z

--

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

Julian Arnold

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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In article <3325A3...@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca>, Brad O`Donnell
<URL:mailto:s7...@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca> wrote:

>
> Will Grzanich wrote:
>
> > How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> > this:
> > [...]

>
> Well, there are a couple of problems (at least with the standard
> library).
> First, the easiest way to make this is to run through the x_to
> properties
> and print out the information for each direction. The problem with
> this is
> that properties like n_to and s_to don't necessarily have to point to
> specific
> objects... they can be routines or strings, or whatever, resulting in
> terrible
> output like:
>
> North - Throne Room

> East - [ no such property in routine ]
> Southwest - "The river blocks the way."
>
> If you have a direction which kills you instantly, you die when you
> type
> "exits".

This is one reason why the n_to, etc. properties should only ever point
to objects. All other special rules (including the printing of text)
should be handled by the location's "before [; Go: ... ],".

Brad O`Donnell

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
to

Andrew Plotkin wrote:

>
> Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
> hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief. Yea, even from
> the early Scott Adams games that listed exits, I thought it was a lousy idea.

Suspension of disbelief is a laudable goal, but we have to[1]
reconcile the
story we're telling with the game in which we're telling it.

In my case, that means that I want to know (in game terms):

-What the environment is, and how the player relates to it.

The environment is the model world. At any given time
you are in a block of it, which might or might not
connect to other blocks. To parallel the "real" world,
knowing which blocks (which the Character knows) connect
to the current block, should not cost anything, and be
available as pure information at any time.
Hence the appeal of the exits verb.

-What the rules are.

This is tantamount to a verb list. Imagine playing chess like
IF.
"I'll move the pawn to the left."
You can't do that.
....
etc, trying everything you can think of and still never knowing
if you're missing an important kind of move. I know I would
never guess how a knight moves.

The nature of the verb list would depend on how much the author
wants to ensure maximum game flow. (Maximum game flow is not,
however, always desirable, in fact, usually quite the opposite.)
At least, however, a complete verb list could be displayed,
cost-free.

-What the pieces (resources) are.

The pieces in IF include (but are not limited to) objects, and to
some extent, words. Words, especially important in the
"communication"-type puzzle, are difficult to come by, and sometimes
never occur in the game's text.

Am I unusual in that I don't like wafting through paragraphs of text,
looking for my game pieces? I would go so far as to want a "tree"
command which shows the objects (which the Character knows about) in
scope in an orderly, easy to read fashion. If you want to hide
objects,
*really* hide them, don't just plaster text around them. Expository
text is hard to read and enjoy. Text adventures are mostly expository
text, a lot of which might be replaceable by a few good information
formats.

Preferably, all three of these would be present at all times.
Practically, the Z-Machine
doesn't really support the multiple windows (or does it) that would
make such a display
as flexible as we'd like, so we have to stick with commands or
switches. That, and the
verb list is really a rather large and daunting table, so displaying it
all the time
would prove to be an eyesore.

Everybody feel free to start punching holes all the way through my
argument/analogy.

[1] Before the firing pins go off, I know we don't *HAVE to* do
anything. But this is
quite a pompous post, so I'll reserve the right to a little pomposity.

Michael Graham

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<erky...@netcom.com> writes

>Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
>hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief.

Unlike, say, "look. undo". Or "x" or "i" or "z" or the compass
directions.

Andrew Plotkin

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

Michael Graham (ce...@cega.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
> <erky...@netcom.com> writes
> >Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
> >hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief.

> Unlike, say, "look. undo".

No, "look.undo" is just as bad. I'm not willing to remove "undo",
however. It's too useful -- in the sense of saving actual typing.
Besides, it's hypocritical to block undo unless you also block save and
restore, at which point everyone comes after you with clubs, starting
with me.

(Note, too, that I grew up playing Infocom games on the Apple II
interpreter, which didn't support undo. I didn't get used to it until I
started playing Curses and the Unnkulia games.)

> Or "x" or "i" or "z"

This I don't understand at all. It's not the player's job to type
coherent prose; it's the player's job to get commands into the machine.
It's the author's job to write prose, and I don't find that "W <-*-> E"
gives anything like the effect I want in a room description.

> or the compass directions.

Do you mean the one- and two-letter abbreviations? See above.

Or do you mean the convention of exits always being in ten
goniometrically simple directions, plus the perfect sense of orientation?
Too used to it by now. And I don't like any of the alternatives -- they
all either feel artificial, or take way too much typing. Except for
pure-graphical first-person-POV games.

--Z

("Goniometry" -- the measuring of angles. Never mind.)

Aquarius

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

Will Grzanich (grza...@uiuc.edu) spoo'd forth:
: How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
: this:

: >exits

: North - Throne Room
: East - A Long Corridor
: Southwest - ?

: where the directions which have exits are displayed along with the name
: of the areas the exits lead to if the player has been there before. If
: not, the question mark is displayed. I can't think of how to do it off
: the top of my head, but I can't imagine such a routine would be terribly
: difficult to write...

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. It's in keeping with the spirit of
things; it's not a full turn's[1] job to note how many doors there are in
the room, but it should take a little time to look around and note all the
objects in the room (that is to say, read the room description and get the
nice "You see a Sherman tank" here message).
I believe somene's already coded this; I recall seeing someone posting
about updates to a game, in which it was mentioned that an 'exits' command
was added. Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me remember who it
was...

Aquarius

--
"The grand plan that is Aquarius proceeds apace." - 'Ronin', Frank Miller.
----aqua...@cryogen.com | http://www.netforward.com/cryogen/?aquarius----
I would not bet against the existence of time machines. My opponent might
------ have seen the future and know the answer. - Stephen Hawking -------

Aquarius

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

Aquarius (S.I.La...@durham.ac.uk) spoo'd forth:
['exits' verb discussion]
: I believe somene's already coded this; I recall seeing someone posting

: about updates to a game, in which it was mentioned that an 'exits' command
: was added. Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me remember who it
: was...

Ha! A quick bit of article searching, and I have it. It is mentioned in
the last 'Additions to GMD' post; someone has coded it for Inform.
Unfortunately, the pathname runs off the edge of my (80-character) screen,
so I can't tell you where it was.
No idea about TADS, but it shouldn't be too complex (I can think of a way
to do it, I think, but I'll not post it in case it turns out to be
cobblers :)

Aq.

Michael Graham

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<erky...@netcom.com> writes
>Michael Graham (ce...@cega.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
>> <erky...@netcom.com> writes
>> >Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
>> >hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief.

[SNIP]

>> Or "x" or "i" or "z"
>
>This I don't understand at all. It's not the player's job to type
>coherent prose; it's the player's job to get commands into the machine.
>It's the author's job to write prose, and I don't find that "W <-*-> E"
>gives anything like the effect I want in a room description.

The thing is, text adventures have their own idiom. What you're used to
seems natural and transparent, and novelty seems to intrude.

What's so inherently natural about typing "i" and getting an itemized
list of what you're carrying?

When I face a problem in real life, I don't look at everything I'm
carrying and read through their brief descriptions. When confronted
with the locked front door of my office, I reach into my left pocket for
my keys, fan them, and pluck out the brass one with the tape on it.
When my glasses fall apart, I rummage around in my satchel for my
screwdriver, or a paper clip, or a safety pin.

For a player playing me in a game, it might not be immediately clear
that I keep my keys in my left pocket, or paper clips in my satchel, or
that I've put tape around a certain key for easy identification. So the
"inventory. x key. get key. look in satchel. get paper clip" shorthand
is convenient. But it's not "realistic".

Not that I'm a huge fan of realism, mind you. I'm just pointing out
that suspension of disbelief is really dependent upon what you're used
to. It's very easy to completely lose oneself in a book, for example,
even though it's very much an artificial process.

>> or the compass directions.
>
>Do you mean the one- and two-letter abbreviations? See above.
>
>Or do you mean the convention of exits always being in ten
>goniometrically simple directions, plus the perfect sense of orientation?
>Too used to it by now.

Exactly.

> And I don't like any of the alternatives -- they
>all either feel artificial, or take way too much typing. Except for
>pure-graphical first-person-POV games.

Sure. I'm not arguing for more realism along those lines. I *like* all
the artificial text adventure shorthands that have evolved.

>--Z
>
>("Goniometry" -- the measuring of angles. Never mind.)

Not minded.

Andrew Plotkin

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Michael Graham (ce...@cega.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
> <erky...@netcom.com> writes
> >Michael Graham (ce...@cega.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
> >> <erky...@netcom.com> writes
> >> >Well, just to throw a note of dissonance into this exits-fest, I always
> >> >hated it. It stomps all over my suspension of disbelief.

> >> Or "x" or "i" or "z"

> >
> >This I don't understand at all. It's not the player's job to type
> >coherent prose; it's the player's job to get commands into the machine.
> >It's the author's job to write prose, and I don't find that "W <-*-> E"
> >gives anything like the effect I want in a room description.

> The thing is, text adventures have their own idiom. What you're used to
> seems natural and transparent, and novelty seems to intrude.

I am not unaware of the novelty factor.

> What's so inherently natural about typing "i" and getting an itemized
> list of what you're carrying?

Text IF cannot emulate any other form in its player->computer interface.
It has its own idiom for that, which is now well-established and
difficult to change.

In its computer->player interface, it does have something it can emulate,
which is prose fiction. As a player and as an author, I prefer that it do
that as much as possible. It is possible to describe a room in prose
rather than as a list presented out-of-band. Therefore, that is the way I
like it.

For that matter, I like inventory lists presented as English sentences
rather than vertical lists.

> So the
> "inventory. x key. get key. look in satchel. get paper clip" shorthand
> is convenient. But it's not "realistic".

I think I'm not talking about realism, but fictionalism. I'm not trying
to make games like real life; if I was, I'd be investing heavily in
virtual-reality goggles. I'm trying to make games like books.

--Z

J. Robinson Wheeler

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

>Will Grzanich (grza...@uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
>: this:
>
>: >exits
>
>: North - Throne Room
>: East - A Long Corridor
>: Southwest - ?


It seems that proper IF writing ethic dictates a terse notation of exits
within the full room description. Often, and purely by convention (or
utility), the reference to available exits comes at the tail end of the
room desc. How about if this were coded as a separate string that would
automatically be printed as part of the room desc, and would come up on
its own if the player used 'exits'? IE:
--------------------
Waterfall

The cascading waters fill the air with vapor and mist, and the
roar of the deep waters over the rocks echoes through the caverns.
A trail leads around the waters to the southeast, and descends
back into the darkness to the west. The river continues north.

> se
Dead end

The trail leads to an abrupt dead-end in a chalky alcove where the
limestone has been carved by the river into deep pools. The only
exit is northwest.

> exits
The only exit is northwest.

> nw
Waterfall

> x mist
I don't know the word "mist."

> exits
A trail leads around the waters to the southeast, and descends
back into the darkness to the west. The river continues north.

> se
Dead end

> e
The limestone wall seems to swing open, and you walk through it.

Kitchen

> exits
There is a hallway east, and a chimney leading up. There seems to
be a secret door open to the west.

> w
Dead end

> exits
An exit leads northwest. There seems to be a secret door open to
the east.

> look
Dead end

The trail leads to an abrupt dead-end in a chalky alcove where the
limestone has been carved by the river into deep pools. An exit
leads northwest. There seems to be a secret door open to the east.

>

----------------

In this way, with a little extra coding to keep a lid on spoilers, and the
extra few seconds per room to write a separate exit_desc, a compromise is
reached between immersion in the game and the utility of the command.


Rob Wheeler
whe...@moontower.com


John Wood

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

In article: <ant12015...@arnod.demon.co.uk>

Julian Arnold <jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > If you have a direction which kills you instantly, you die when you
> > type
> > "exits".
>
> This is one reason why the n_to, etc. properties should only ever point
> to objects. All other special rules (including the printing of text)
> should be handled by the location's "before [; Go: ... ],".

Oops - you're not going to like my Silly code, then...

John

Michael Graham

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<erky...@netcom.com> writes

[SNIP]

>In its computer->player interface, it does have something it can emulate,
>which is prose fiction. As a player and as an author, I prefer that it do
>that as much as possible. It is possible to describe a room in prose
>rather than as a list presented out-of-band. Therefore, that is the way I
>like it.
>
>For that matter, I like inventory lists presented as English sentences
>rather than vertical lists.

Yes, I'm not advocating "de-fictionalizing" the computer->player
interface any further by having exit tables automatically generated at
the end of each "look" command. But I don't see anything wrong with the
player typing 'exits' and the computer generating a response (the less
list-like, the better, of course). I don't see this as any worse than
an inventory list.

[SNIP]

>I think I'm not talking about realism, but fictionalism. I'm not trying
>to make games like real life; if I was, I'd be investing heavily in
>virtual-reality goggles. I'm trying to make games like books.

No argument there (although I also like to simulate a parser with a mind
of its own).

Have you ever been reading a book, and built up a pretty clear spatial
understanding of the landscape, only to have the author casually mention
some detail later that forced you to completely reorganize your mental
map?

It's very difficult to write good succinct prose and still mention all
the exits and their associated compass directions. I find that the more
an i-f game approaches good fiction, the more likely it is to bury the
map connections deep within it's wonderful descriptions.

And speaking of which, I'm not particularly fond of mapping the games I
play (or the books I read, for that matter). And what justice am I
doing your finely-crafted descriptions if I'm just scanning them for the
magic exit keywords? And anyway, I'm lazy, so there you have it.

-

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Will Grzanich wrote:
[snip]

> How about a meta verb called "exits" or the like that would work like
> this:
>
> >exits
>
> North - Throne Room
> East - A Long Corridor
> Southwest - ?
[snip]
I've done something similar to this for Inform ('dirs.h' I don't recall
where on the if-archive).
The verb 'directions' 'dirs' 'list exits' or 'exits' lists the
directions you can go in, though it does not give the names of the rooms
in the directions.
--
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>

Everyone agreed it was a splendid funeral, but no one enjoyed it more
than the deceased himself.
--Pt1 C11 Red Dwarf Grant Naylor

Anybody sending unsolicited advertising to my email address, or adding
this
email address to a mailing list or database without my permission, or
the
permission of any of the other people using this email address WILL face
legal action for collection of personal information without permission
under
the New Zealand Privacy Act.


Andrew Plotkin

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

Michael Graham (ce...@cega.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
> <erky...@netcom.com> writes

> [SNIP]

> >For that matter, I like inventory lists presented as English sentences
> >rather than vertical lists.

> Yes, I'm not advocating "de-fictionalizing" the computer->player
> interface any further by having exit tables automatically generated at
> the end of each "look" command. But I don't see anything wrong with the
> player typing 'exits' and the computer generating a response (the less
> list-like, the better, of course). I don't see this as any worse than
> an inventory list.

Mm. Ok. You win. That wouldn't bother me any more than the inventory
list.

(Of course, it shouldn't give away anything the protagonist doesn't know,
as has already been discussed.)

> And speaking of which, I'm not particularly fond of mapping the games I
> play (or the books I read, for that matter). And what justice am I
> doing your finely-crafted descriptions if I'm just scanning them for the
> magic exit keywords?

I'm a veteran verbose-mode-only guy. Scanning already-read text while
keeping a sense of the overall effect is what I like to do. In fact, it's
specifically what I like about verbose mode. Playing in brief mode makes
me feel blind.

> And anyway, I'm lazy, so there you have it.

Yeah, yeah, we're all lazy. Don't brag. :)

David Glasser

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

> Julian Arnold wrote:
> >
> > Look ought to be a meta command. To me it means "be aware of my

> > surroundings in a general sense." This is something most of us can do
> > without making a special effort. The special effort comes when you
> > examine particulars.
> >

> > Jools


>
> Which leads me to ask: Is this a common feeling, so far as fairness to
> the player is concerned? (Hoping not to beg the question, of course, of
> whether sadistic game authors care about fairness to the player.)
>

> I've wondered about this, too. But my conclusion differed from Mr.
> Arnold's in that I figured that if I were really, say, trapped in some
> underground cavern and looking for a way out, kept trying different
> things, failed at each, and periodically put my hands on my hips, and
> hmmmed whilst taking stock of my surroundings, then maybe I oughta get
> docked a turn for that.
>

> --Kent
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

This whole thing (free looking) would be really simple in TADS, if anyone
is interested. Here's the entire (untested) code:

modify lookVerb
action( actor ) =
{
actor.location.lookAround( true );
abort;
}
;

Inventory for free would be similar.

David Glasser
dsgl...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6028/


Daniel R. Lackey

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

David Glasser wrote:
>
> In article <8580081...@dejanews.com>, tes...@cibc.ca wrote:
>
> > Julian Arnold wrote:
> > >
> > > Look ought to be a meta command. To me it means "be aware of my
> > > surroundings in a general sense." This is something most of us can do
> > > without making a special effort. The special effort comes when you
> > > examine particulars.
> This whole thing (free looking) would be really simple in TADS, if anyone
> is interested. Here's the entire (untested) code:

It's possible in TADS... but the question is, is it possible in Inform? If'n I remember
correctly, the whole "Look" verb is not tagged meta, and this includes variations like "Look At"
which call Examine. Is it possible to tag some uses of a verb "meta" and some as "non-meta"?

(This may be a stupid question, but I'm new to Inform.)

--
daniel r. lackey standing in government denies knowledge
jmdre...@earthlink.net the shadows XVI. the tower
===============================================================================
"God is dead." -- F.W. Nietzsche
"He's not dead, he's... pining for the fjords!" -- M. Palin

Patrick Kellum

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

For some reason, Daniel R. Lackey was chatting and out came these words of greatness:

>It's possible in TADS... but the question is, is it possible in Inform? If'n I remember
>correctly, the whole "Look" verb is not tagged meta, and this includes variations like "Look At"
>which call Examine. Is it possible to tag some uses of a verb "meta" and some as "non-meta"?

Extend 'look' first
* ->LookFree;

[ LookFree;
meta=true;
<<Look>>;
];

Just stick that in your code to make look a meta while keeping 'look at' a
normal verb.

>(This may be a stupid question, but I'm new to Inform.)

Not a stupid question, I asked the same thing myself. Making the global
'meta' true is the same thing as making the current verb meta.

Patrick
---

"Every weekday morning the school bell cast its glamour over the
surounding hills, calling the young to classes. They came running
down the slopes and leaping over the streams, out from caves and the
hollows of trees and suburban tract homes, impelled by powers greater
then their own to gain an education."
"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" by Michael Swanwick

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