How do player like hints?
Angela
this is slightly different...
Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
he/she is holding.
Would you like something like this:
>hint
Figure it out yourself! //or something more eloquent
or
>hint
Smell the flower.
or
>hint
Prease press Enter to see the next hint
1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
3/3 SMELL FLOWER
or
>hint
Prease press Enter to see the next hint
1/3 What are you holding at the moment? [enter]
2/3 There is an item you picked up recently. [enter]
3/3 What do people usually do with flowers?
Or don't most people care?
Thanx,
@.@ ~Angela
Magnus Olsson
Angela <ju...@devil-rulz.freeservers.com> wrote:
>Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
>a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
>Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
>he/she is holding.
>Would you like something like this:
>
>>hint
>Figure it out yourself! //or something more eloquent
In one word: no. The problem is that what is blindingly obvious
to one person is quite obscure to another. If I really can't think
of smelling the flower, being told that I should figure it out
myself is frustrating at best, a slap in the face at worst.
>>hint
>Smell the flower.
>
>or
>
>>hint
>Prease press Enter to see the next hint
>1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
>2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
>3/3 SMELL FLOWER
This depends on how difficult the puzzle is. But for anything but
the very simplest puzzles, I think the graudal hints are best.
>>hint
>Prease press Enter to see the next hint
>1/3 What are you holding at the moment? [enter]
>2/3 There is an item you picked up recently. [enter]
>3/3 What do people usually do with flowers?
I prefer having the last hint spell out exactly what to do.
If nothing else, it could solve guess-the-word problems.
For example, if I figured out that I want to push a button,
but the game only accepts the syntax "press button", then
the hint "3/3 What do people usually do with buttons" is worse
than useless.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, m...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~mol ------
Robin Rawson-Tetley
designing hint systems.
I personally prefer context-sensitive cryptic hints that give you a nudge
and don't give the game away - I personally don't glean any satisfaction
from solving a puzzle I was given the answer to (unfortunately if
"sledgehammer" hints are there I can't resist using them when the puzzle
starts to annoy me!).
The major downer with context hints is that they are a bit of a pig to
program reliably unless your game is extremely linear, however, if done well
they can add an extra dimension to your game (in my opinion anyway).
I think it's just a question of personal taste - for both players and
authors.
Sorry, I guess that isn't really that much help :-)
Rob
"Angela" <ju...@devil-rulz.freeservers.com> wrote in message
news:85f43f07.01102...@posting.google.com...
J. D. Berry
> Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
> a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
> Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
> he/she is holding.
> Would you like something like this:
>
> >hint
> Figure it out yourself! //or something more eloquent
Depending on the game world, that might be a slap in the face (as
Magnus suggests) or entirely appropriate (got id?)
Going the more eloquent route also may or may not be appropriate.
Working out a hint system can assist you in designing your world
to the point you might not need to include hints. You can direct
players in room descriptions, from NPCs and from "failed" commands.
Nearly completely off topic, I like the Bill Cosby bit where
God gives Noah a hint. "How long can you tread water?"
> or
>
> >hint
> Smell the flower.
>
Maybe that command should be "solution"
Going this route, use "hint" with something like you have below,
e.g. "come to your senses!" Use solution for "smell the flower,
already." Of course, you'd need to inlude the verb solution
upfront.
> or
>
> >hint
> Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> 1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
> 2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
> 3/3 SMELL FLOWER
>
There is an art to this. Done well, this works, well... well.
Alas, I've seen it where the first few "hints" sucked, er I mean
were completely opaque, and then *POW* I get the answer:
1/5 have you tried typing in a command?
2/5 there is something somewhere that might help...
3/5 smell flower
> or
>
> >hint
> Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> 1/3 What are you holding at the moment? [enter]
> 2/3 There is an item you picked up recently. [enter]
> 3/3 What do people usually do with flowers?
>
This also is an art. You can leave a player even
more frustrated ("I can't even figure it out using the
hints!") than when he started.
The rub: If I'm tuning into your game, I won't need
the hints. If I'm not, I'm likely not to catch your
style of hinting either. Flat out giving me the answer
leads to dependency. Ugh.
> Or don't most people care?
Oh, they care all right.
Jim
Shane Doak
the final answer to be in there. It's human nature - if you're already
asking for a hint, it's not much more of a stretch to get the "next level"
hint and so on right up to the answer. The typical player, once started on
the hint run, usually always gets all the hints in a very short period of
time, if not straight away.
Hints tease: take the next level hint! They are insidious, depriving the
player of the frustration of the puzzle but if a sledgehammer answer is
given, also seriously detracts from the enjoyment finally received when the
puzzle is solved.
The only exception might be where a particular phrase is required, where the
player knows what to do but can't pick the right words - and this is the
fault of the game designer/programmer, quite separate from the hint system.
Shane
On 24/10/01 3:39 PM, in article
85f43f07.01102...@posting.google.com, "Angela"
Eytan Zweig
"Shane Doak" <shan...@ripcurl.com.au> wrote in message
news:B7FCFC9D.1B6B%shan...@ripcurl.com.au...
> I prefer the gradual hint system, but with a proviso - I really don't like
> the final answer to be in there. It's human nature - if you're already
> asking for a hint, it's not much more of a stretch to get the "next level"
> hint and so on right up to the answer. The typical player, once started
on
> the hint run, usually always gets all the hints in a very short period of
> time, if not straight away.
>
> Hints tease: take the next level hint! They are insidious, depriving the
> player of the frustration of the puzzle but if a sledgehammer answer is
> given, also seriously detracts from the enjoyment finally received when
the
> puzzle is solved.
>
> The only exception might be where a particular phrase is required, where
the
> player knows what to do but can't pick the right words - and this is the
> fault of the game designer/programmer, quite separate from the hint
system.
>
> Shane
>
>
I disagree - I think gradual hints are the best, but they should end with an
explicit solution. Several times I've played games where I simpley could not
figure out any of the puzzles, but the storyline and/or writing style were
interesting enough that I wanted to proceed. Often, if I couldn't figure out
the in-game hints, I couldn't figure out the hint-system hints either - so I
needed the explicit solution. Having to leave a game unfinished because of a
puzzle is, in my opinion, a disservice both to the author and to myself.
Sure, there exists the temptation element. But at any situation, the
question of whether or not to use hints is a balance between two factors -
A - how much I want the intellectual excersize of solving the puzzle vs. B -
how much I want to see the rest of the game. If I'm looking at the hints,
then I've already decided - and therefore the temptation doesn't deprive me
of anything I'm not willing to give up anyway.
Of course, this raises the question - why gradual hints at all? If I'm
already willing to travel all the way down the hint tree, why not just give
me th end result? The answer is that sometimes the partial hint is enough
for the puzzle to "click" into place for me. If so, I'll be happier knowing
I solved part of it than none of it at all. Also, especially in early-game
puzzles, sometimes I just haven't yet synchronized my thought processes with
the game. Maybe I'm just looking in the totally wrong direction, maybe I
haven't figured out that this game allows me to do something (for instance,
maybe it never occured to me that I could order animals around in this
game). Giving me a well-chosen gradual hint might put me on the path not
just for this particular puzzle, but for others as well - while giving me
the solution might have allowed me to know what to do, but not WHY it
worked, which would not help me for further puzzles.
Hope this helps,
Eytan
Angela
>I think gradual hints are the best, but they should end with an
explicit solution.
gradual hints)
This is especially the case when the game is in an entirely different
form to those which I am used to, or is in a genre that I find
difficult to relate to. Maybe there should be a 'break' between the
second last and the 'giveaway' hint (ie. a 'blank' hint or a situation
where the player types ENTER and there is a warning about a
sledgehammer...but that might become annoying).
And a comment about a good gradual-hints system...not only could it be
used to help the player understand a cryptic command/plot/action, but
it could also be used to subtly help the player 'see' how the author
intended the game to turn out.
And a hint-system with 'personality' (in relation to the mood of the
game itself) could actually enhance the game-experience.
There is also always the option of 'removing' all sledgehammers
('hints off' or something), and make that action unchangeable later.
@.@ ~Angela
JT Thomas
> (Angela) wrote
>
> > Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
> > a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
> > Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
> > he/she is holding.
> > >hint
> > Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> > 1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
> > 2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
> > 3/3 SMELL FLOWER
> >
>
> There is an art to this. Done well, this works, well... well.
> Alas, I've seen it where the first few "hints" sucked, er I mean
> were completely opaque, and then *POW* I get the answer:
>
> 1/5 have you tried typing in a command?
> 2/5 there is something somewhere that might help...
> 3/5 smell flower
>
> > or
> >
> > >hint
> > Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> > 1/3 What are you holding at the moment? [enter]
> > 2/3 There is an item you picked up recently. [enter]
> > 3/3 What do people usually do with flowers?
> >
so coat-tailing on this conversation here are my two cents: I tend to
like in-game hints, but don't like hints that "chain" together i.e.
'press enter for the next hint' *I* find these style hints too
tempting! There is a tacit appeal for me to press enter to see the
next hint! In your example I prefer the latter over the former, *BUT*
I prefer that the last hint given be *completely* explicit - with a
warning! Example:
>> hint
(1/6) What are you holding at the moment?
>> hint
(2/6) There is an item you picked up recently that may be useful.
>> hint
(3/6) Flower Power!
>> hint
(4/6) What do people usually do with flowers?
>> hint
(5/6) Don't forget to stop and smell the roses!
>> hint
** WARNING! THIS IS THE FINAL HINT. Are you sure you want the solution
to be revealed? **
>> Y
(6/6) SMELL FLOWER
Angela
> like in-game hints, but don't like hints that "chain" together i.e.
> 'press enter for the next hint' *I* find these style hints too
> tempting! There is a tacit appeal for me to press enter to see the
> next hint! In your example I prefer the latter over the former, *BUT*
> I prefer that the last hint given be *completely* explicit - with a
> warning! Example:
I agree with you, sort of, but I also find it annoying to type 'hint'
every time :), especially if there is a puzzle that needs more than 10
hints (which aren't that uncommon). It would also be hard to look at
them all at a time and analyse them, in an attempt to 'get on the same
wave length' as the author.
Maybe it could be compromised, say with a sledgehammer warning right
before the giveaway.
@.@ ~Angela
Knight37
> *I know something similar has been written/talked about before, but
> this is slightly different...
>
> Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
> a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
> Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
> he/she is holding.
> Would you like something like this:
>>hint
> Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> 1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
> 2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
> 3/3 SMELL FLOWER
I think the example above fits my desires the best exept I'd rather have to
type "hint" every time, and I think it would be nice if the game didn't
allow me to just type "hint" in succession several times to get the answer.
It should respond with "geez, aren't you going to even TRY to solve this
puzzle yourself?" unless I've tried a few more commands. Something like
this:
>HINT
1/3 Check your inventory.
>HINT
You can type 'inventory' or 'i' to display your inventory.
>i
You are carrying:
A flower.
>HINT
2/3 Do something with something in your inventory.
>HINT
You could actually try doing something before begging for help again.
>eat flower
That would not taste very good.
>lick flower
That would not taste very good.
>smoke flower
I don't know what 'smoke' means.
>kill flower
Violence isn't the answer.
>drop flower
Dropped.
>stomp on flower
I don't know what 'stomp' means.
>HINT
WARNING, this is the LAST HINT, are you Sure?
>Hell yes, dammit!
Please respond Y or N?
>Y
3/3 Try SMELL FLOWER. Looser. ;P
>DOH!
I don't know the meaning of "DOH!". Idiot.
You could leave out the condescension or not. Depending on your style. ;)
--
Knight37
You must get dizzy with everything revolving around you like that.
Gabe McKean
"Knight37" <knig...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91459970B...@209.155.56.82...
[snip]
> I think the example above fits my desires the best exept I'd rather have
to
> type "hint" every time, and I think it would be nice if the game didn't
> allow me to just type "hint" in succession several times to get the
answer.
> It should respond with "geez, aren't you going to even TRY to solve this
> puzzle yourself?" unless I've tried a few more commands. Something like
> this:
>
> >HINT
> 1/3 Check your inventory.
> >HINT
> You can type 'inventory' or 'i' to display your inventory.
> >i
> You are carrying:
> A flower.
> >HINT
> 2/3 Do something with something in your inventory.
> >HINT
> You could actually try doing something before begging for help again.
Unless handled very well, this could be really annoying. Most hint systems
I've seen aren't context-sensitive enough to know if I've already tried one
of the preliminary hint suggestions. Usually I only type 'hint' (or
whatever) in rapid succession if the hints are all telling me things I
already know, and stop when I find one that suggests something I haven't
tried. If the hint system forces me to repeat things I've already tried
before giving me another hint, needless to say I'll be unhappy.
Magnus Olsson
Gabe McKean <gmc...@wsu.edu> wrote:
>
>"Knight37" <knig...@email.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns91459970B...@209.155.56.82...
>to
>> type "hint" every time, and I think it would be nice if the game didn't
>> allow me to just type "hint" in succession several times to get the
>answer.
>> It should respond with "geez, aren't you going to even TRY to solve this
>> puzzle yourself?" unless I've tried a few more commands.
>Unless handled very well, this could be really annoying.
Yes. In general, a computer pgoram shouldn't patronize its user, and
above all it shouldn't tell the player that "you think you want a hint,
but I know better, bwahaha!".
My reaction to responses like "Geez, aren't you going to even TRY to
solve this puzzle yourself?" would probably be something like
"Dammit, when I type HINT I mean it!".
Of course, there are exceptions. Some games live by their
attitude. But there's places where attitude is more or less
appropriate.
Of course, you have a point in that if it's too easy to get another
hint, there might be a risk of getting one without really wanting
it. Suppose, for example, that after giving a hint the game just said
"press space for another hint", and it buffered keypresses - then
pressing space for just a moment too long so that it started to
auto-repeat could flood you with hints.
It's a bit like if you have an invisiclues book where all the clues
are laready developed - it's almost impossible to avoid reading
a line too far...
Knight37
>> >HINT
>> 2/3 Do something with something in your inventory.
>> >HINT
>> You could actually try doing something before begging for help again.
>
> Unless handled very well, this could be really annoying. Most hint
> systems I've seen aren't context-sensitive enough to know if I've
> already tried one of the preliminary hint suggestions. Usually I only
> type 'hint' (or whatever) in rapid succession if the hints are all
> telling me things I already know, and stop when I find one that
> suggests something I haven't tried. If the hint system forces me to
> repeat things I've already tried before giving me another hint,
> needless to say I'll be unhappy.
Well the point would be to try something other than what you tried before,
since that obviously didn't work.
I would prefer the game give hints grudgingly. I know myself, and I know I
am tempted to repeatedly hit HINT to get the answer and the be done with
that puzzle. However, I think this robs me of experiencing the game, and if
the hints are GOOD hints, I should be able to figure out at least PART of
the puzzle without a complete spoiler. Having the game enforce an attempt at
each of the hints would give me what I need, not what I might desire.
And certainly I'd expect someone who implemented this type of hint system to
spend the time to build in enough flags so that the game knows where you are
stuck and doesn't give hints that are completely useless. In the example
we've been using it should do this:
>i
You are carrying a flower.
>HINT
Try doing something with something in your inventory.
And not this:
>i
You are carrying a flower.
>HINT
Try looking in your inventory.
Yes, I realize this could be difficult. It's difficult to have a context
senstive hint system. If you can't do that, then it's better to have a hint
MENU instead. Also depending on how linear or nonlinear the game is, a menu
could be a lot better than HINT command. Unless it's a HINT command that
lets you specify parameters.
You are in a room. There is a box here.
>open box
The box is locked.
>HINT box
Hmm... a lock. There must be a key somewhere nearby.
>HINT key
You might need to explore a bit to find it.
(after exploring, a key is found, but it's guarded by a snake)
>HINT key
You must get by the snake to get the key.
>HINT snake
Maybe something would make the snake go away?
Anyway, I would like to see a really good context sensitive hint system that
protects me from spoiling myself. That's just my preference, and obviously
some people will not like this, but if a potential author is going to poll
the group for what we want, I'm certainly going to express my opinion about
the kind of hint system I would like to see. Hopefully other players would
also like this, but maybe not. It would be a lot of effort, and it's
certainly not a must-have. It could make a good game better, but it won't
save a bad one. :)
--
Knight37
"There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded
guns, and those who dig. You dig."
-- Blonde, from "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"
Knight37
> In article <9ra3nr$6hr9$1...@murrow.murrow.it.wsu.edu>,
> Gabe McKean <gmc...@wsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>"Knight37" <knig...@email.com> wrote in message
>>news:Xns91459970B...@209.155.56.82...
>>> I think the example above fits my desires the best exept I'd rather
>>> have to type "hint" every time, and I think it would be nice if the
>>> game didn't allow me to just type "hint" in succession several times
>>> to get the answer. It should respond with "geez, aren't you going to
>>> even TRY to solve this puzzle yourself?" unless I've tried a few more
>>> commands.
>
>>Unless handled very well, this could be really annoying.
>
> Yes. In general, a computer pgoram shouldn't patronize its user, and
> above all it shouldn't tell the player that "you think you want a hint,
> but I know better, bwahaha!".
In general this is true, but it could be really funny if done properly.
"What are you, one of those fair-weather adventurers?"
--
Knight37
Not many people know what their life's worth is. I do. Seventy grand. That's
what they took from me. And that's what I was going to get back.
Porter played by Mel Gibson, "Payback"
Timothy Partridge
knig...@email.com (Knight37) wrote:
> ju...@devil-rulz.freeservers.com (Angela) had the moxy to write:
>
> > *I know something similar has been written/talked about before, but
> > this is slightly different...
> >
> > Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
> > a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
> > Say I put the player in a place, and they have to...smell a flower
> > he/she is holding.
> > Would you like something like this:
>
> >>hint
> > Prease press Enter to see the next hint
> > 1/3 Check your inventory [enter]
> > 2/3 Do something with your most recently acquired item [enter]
> > 3/3 SMELL FLOWER
>
> I think the example above fits my desires the best exept I'd rather have to
> type "hint" every time, and I think it would be nice if the game didn't
> allow me to just type "hint" in succession several times to get the answer.
> It should respond with "geez, aren't you going to even TRY to solve this
> puzzle yourself?" unless I've tried a few more commands. Something like
> this:
[snip]
If the game can work what sort of hint you need, that would work, but
doesn't that require excessive work programming the hints? Sometimes I have
a good idea what I need to do to solve a problem, it's phrasing the command
that's got me. I might want to skip hints I've already realised. If the
program can analyse what I've been doing in detail and skip then for me all
well and good. But as a programmer I'd rather spend my time making the story
experience better than doing a clever hints system.
Incidently, doing hints for things that can kill the player is trickier.
The program can't tell if the player has been killed already, since death
ends the game and restore / undo results in a pre-demise state. Unless you
allow hint as a post mortem command!
You are dead.
QUIT, RESTART, RESTORE, UNDO or HINT
> HINT
Perhaps you should reconsider your last action.
> HINT
You could try undoing it.
>UNDO
Move undone
>HINT
You haven't tried doing anything yet!
> 3/3 Try SMELL FLOWER. Looser. ;P
> >DOH!
> I don't know the meaning of "DOH!". Idiot.
>
> You could leave out the condescension or not. Depending on your style. ;)
Personally I feel bad enough needing a hint without being made to grovel too :-)
Tim
--
Tim Partridge. Any opinions expressed are mine only and not those of my employer
Knight37
> If the game can work what sort of hint you need, that would work, but
> doesn't that require excessive work programming the hints?
Yes, it would.
> Sometimes I
> have a good idea what I need to do to solve a problem, it's phrasing
> the command that's got me. I might want to skip hints I've already
> realised. If the program can analyse what I've been doing in detail and
> skip then for me all well and good. But as a programmer I'd rather
> spend my time making the story experience better than doing a clever
> hints system.
Sure, I can understand that. We were asked what we wanted, not what we
thought was realistically possible. ;P
> Personally I feel bad enough needing a hint without being made to
> grovel too :-)
LOL.
--
Knight37
Jesus never instituted a charity ball where, amid the voluptuous swell of
the dance, the rustle of silks, the sparkle of diamonds, and the stimulus of
wine and women dressed decolleté, he could dissipate his love for the lowly.
-- anonymous 19th Century cleric
John Colagioia
[...]
> You are in a room. There is a box here.
> >open box
> The box is locked.
> >HINT box
> Hmm... a lock. There must be a key somewhere nearby.
> >HINT key
> You might need to explore a bit to find it.
[...]
If I could chime in here, for a second...oh, heck. Even if I can't.
Personally, I don't like hints as such. Specifically, I hate that feeling of
being ripped out of the game to get anything ranging from pointless affirmations
to complete solutions. I actually dislike the feeling enough that it overrides
the clue, itself.
What I would vastly prefer to see is a hint system which is integrated
"seamlessly" into the game. A good example of this might be an NPC. Consider
the following dialog:
> EXAMINE THE BOX
It's a small, wooden box, about as deep as your stretched hand is long. The
carvings on the surface remind you of solid mahogany and wicker at the same
time, and very nearly succeed at hiding the tiny lock on what you assume is the
"front" of the box.
> OPEN THE BOX
It's locked.
> LOOK
You're in a mostly barren storeroom, with a handful of bare shelves.
Jim is standing here.
> ASK JIM ABOUT BOX
Jim says, "seems to me that if there's a lock, there must be a key, somewhere."
Meanwhile, Bob enters from the north.
> ASK BOB ABOUT BOX
Bob looks at you as if you're an idiot, and in a rather condescending tone of
voice, says, "uhm...did you try opening it?"
> TELL BOB ABOUT BOX
You explain to Bob that the box is locked. "I remember seeing a bag of keys,
somewhere, now that you mention it..."
I'll admit that it's a heck of a lot of work to get something like this running
correctly. However, the idea is that, first, you don't let the player "leave"
the playfield for the hint, and second, the player is in control of the hints he
gets by telling his companions what he knows. That is, Bob might even know how
to get rid of the aforementioned snake, but he won't bring it up until you tell
him that there *is* a snake.
More tedious than usual? Maybe a little. However, that tedium may inspire the
player to avoid the hints. And it's unlikely that the player will have to go
through the same sets of hints twice, that might not be too bad, either.
You know. As long as everyone is talking about their fantasy hint system...
Eytan Zweig
>
> Personally, I don't like hints as such. Specifically, I hate that feeling
of
> being ripped out of the game to get anything ranging from pointless
affirmations
> to complete solutions. I actually dislike the feeling enough that it
overrides
> the clue, itself.
>
> What I would vastly prefer to see is a hint system which is integrated
> "seamlessly" into the game. A good example of this might be an NPC.
Consider
> the following dialog:
>
[Examples of NPCs offering hints snipped]
>
> I'll admit that it's a heck of a lot of work to get something like this
running
> correctly. However, the idea is that, first, you don't let the player
"leave"
> the playfield for the hint, and second, the player is in control of the
hints he
> gets by telling his companions what he knows. That is, Bob might even
know how
> to get rid of the aforementioned snake, but he won't bring it up until you
tell
> him that there *is* a snake.
>
> More tedious than usual? Maybe a little. However, that tedium may
inspire the
> player to avoid the hints. And it's unlikely that the player will have to
go
> through the same sets of hints twice, that might not be too bad, either.
>
> You know. As long as everyone is talking about their fantasy hint
system...
>
I think that the amount of storylines that can work well with such as system
are very, very limited. You'd have to have a world which allows for NPCs
which are both present and helpful, OR for a guidebook, OR for some other
logical source of information. You'd also have to provide some logical
reason for them not to step in with the information if you don't want them
to (if, in the real world, you saw your friend about to be bitten by a
snake, wouldn't you shout out to him "HIT IT WITH THE STICK!" even if he
didn't explicitly ask you?) I'm not saying it's not possible, but it won't
fit in with many, many storylines. Imagine that the protagonist is alone in
some isolated location (or better yet, some previously unknown location of
which no documentation exists either). Or that he or she is in some paranoid
situation, where everyone and anything could be out to get him or her. Or
maybe it's a world where everyone mysteriously disappeared. And these are
just obvious examples - there are thousands of other ideas which would have
in-game hints make no sense. And then you're left with the option of either
making the hint system undermine the story, or forcing people who want hints
to look outside the story for them. And I think the latter is the better in
this case.
Eytan
Lucian P. Smith
: *I know something similar has been written/talked about before, but
: this is slightly different...
: Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
: a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
My thoughts on *how* a hint system should progress can be found at:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntFicHints
A couple other points:
-I generally prefer to have explicit hints at the end, detailing the exact
grammar needed.
-Having some sort of pause between hints is good, I think. In 'Edifice',
I made it so you had to leave, wait, then come back. For my web-based
hints for 'So Far' (http://www.bioc.rice.edu/~lpsmith/IF/sofar.html), you
have to edit the URL for the next clue in the location bar; there's no
link to it.
-Never link the hint system to the scoring system. You will confuse
and/or annoy your players. (I will grudgingly allow a 'last lousy point'
connection, but even then I think it's dumb.)
-Lucian
Nick Maclaren
In article <9rmke6$dot$1...@joe.rice.edu>, "Lucian P. Smith" <lps...@rice.edu> writes:
|> Angela <ju...@devil-rulz.freeservers.com> wrote in <85f43f07.01102...@posting.google.com>:
|>
|> : *I know something similar has been written/talked about before, but
|> : this is slightly different...
|>
|> : Most games with hint systems tend to have gradual hints, ranging from
|> : a gentle nudge to rather blatant messages, but how do players like it?
|>
|> My thoughts on *how* a hint system should progress can be found at:
|>
|> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntFicHints
Good rules, but I would add a more generic point. If there is any
cultural mismatch between you and the player, the problems are
likely to be there. So, what I would do is NOT to hint at
particular problems, but to enumerate choices. For example:
Being able to find out the wordlist and syntax is a great help;
it is nonsense to say "try every synonym for hit you know" to someone
who may know hundreds or who may not know the one you have used. The
syntax can also catch people out by implying a different meaning.
Hinting at what locations and objects have not been used up.
This is especially relevant with ones that get used twice. Trying
every combination is ineffably tedious, especially when you are
thinking along the wrong lines. You don't need to do more than
point, in general.
Drawing attention to completely missed objects and locations.
It is often possible to misunderstand wording, and not realise
that something is significant, even on fifth reading. A game
with no throw-away remarks is very tedious, too.
Paying special attention to interlocking and time-dependent
puzzles. It is very easy to investigate every possibility bar the
one combination that works when things are not obviously linked.
Which brings back the cultural issue.
Incidentally, all of the above points are exactly the same when
writing a good interactive help system or diagnostic aid. There
really isn't much difference between one of them and a game,
except that the latter tends to be more amusing :-)
And, yes, I hate walkthroughs, too....
Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email: nm...@cam.ac.uk
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679
Mike Roberts
> -Never link the hint system to the scoring system. You
> will confuse and/or annoy your players. (I will grudgingly
> allow a 'last lousy point' connection, but even then I think
> it's dumb.)
Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand what linking the hint
system to the scoring system means; what comes to mind is that the hint
system would be context-sensitive, so it would not bother offering hints for
puzzles you've already solved, and I don't see what confusion that would
cause.
--Mike
mjr underscore at hotmail dot com
Rikard Peterson
news:5jGD7.224$78.3...@inet16.us.oracle.com...
Don't reduce the score beacuse of hint usage.
Andrew Plotkin
Because players will save "save" or "undo", and then blame you for the
extra typing they have to do to preserve their scores.
They will be right, too.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Lucian P. Smith
: Lucian P. Smith <lps...@rice.edu> wrote:
:> -Never link the hint system to the scoring system. You
:> will confuse and/or annoy your players. (I will grudgingly
:> allow a 'last lousy point' connection, but even then I think
:> it's dumb.)
: Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand what linking the hint
: system to the scoring system means;
As someone guessed (correctly), I meant changing the response to the
'score' command based on what hints the player had asked for/looked at.
Mostly I've seen this as a 'you get an extra point if you never look at
the hints', which is kind of silly, but I also speak from personal
experience, when I tied the players 'contentment level' to the number of
hints they had looked at for challenges they had yet to solve. This
turned out to be a horrible idea, because nobody had any idea why their
contentment level was going up and down all the time. Ah, vell.
-Lucian