Question: an IF writers tool?
Jeroen Goulooze
before I read the Garden of Forking paths and before I started playing
computergames etc). And I already wrote some stuff as wel (in Dutch)
But my main problem is always this: For game makers there is a bunch of
tools (from assemblers to C++ and Director). If you are willing to build
a world in a language like that you need the memory of an elephant: what
if you suddenly decide to move one tree to another part of the story?
How can you see what parts of the story are connected to what other
parts? How to copy all the links going to one place to another place, or
all the links leading from one place to another place?
Until now I did not find a tool that could index the ways of IF writing
in a flexible manner. There are a lot of people theorizing about sgml,
html etc, there is a lot out there for programers, but nowhere is a
program for writing and scetching a game on your computer. All the tools
presume a story is already there and does not need to be developed.
I used to write in wp5.1 and had all kinds of macros that made indexes.
No comments on that
I could do it in html, but I do not get a tool for indexing and managing
the story (what if I decide to delete one part of the story, what hapens
to the links to the page?)
I could do it in a database, but even in a relational database it is
hard to make the relations go more than one level deep, and when you
design the database you already have to limit yourself to the amounts of
links, the kinds of links etc (and what about the global links, a book
for instance you could or could not find in storypart a234x999 and is
from that moment on accessible from all the parts in story part A, but
when you get to storypart B you get robbed so you loose the book?)
So I'm thinking of developing my own app.
My main alternatives to write the app with are:
Lisp - lists in lists in lists. But I have no experience with that
Newtonscript/NSBasic (I have a mp2k) - does also give one the oportunity
to work with lists in lists in lists and gives one also a drawing
environment for creating and editing maps (it has a 160mhz processor and
a 320*450 pixels screen and I can take it anywhere). There are people
working on a linux based newton emulator and I want to buy a spare Newton.
I've got some more ideas on the subject as well (kinds of links to be
incorporated, the way you can manage the storyparts etc, a devision in
maps, scenes and storyparts)
So react (and please: don't bitch me about doing it on a Newton, I
really don't know a system that gives you the possibility to link
everything to everything and work with all the links in a flexible
manner)
Jeroen Goulooze (mailto:jero...@bigfoot.com)
Jeroen Goulooze
the oposite of what I mean - they might be good tools for rendering a
story in a format if you want to present it to an audience. But it is
not about managin and indexing all the loose ends of a story without
getting lost.
Jeroen Goulooze
Jose Luis Diaz de Arriba.
Jeroen> I'm a writer, and I'm really interested in interactive
Jeroen> fiction (already before I read the Garden of Forking paths
Jeroen> and before I started playing computergames etc). And I
Jeroen> already wrote some stuff as wel (in Dutch)
Do you refer to the Borges work? It's one of my favourites
Jeroen> Until now I did not find a tool that could index the
Jeroen> ways of IF writing in a flexible manner. There are a lot
Jeroen> of people theorizing about sgml, html etc, there is a lot
Jeroen> out there for programers, but nowhere is a program for
Jeroen> writing and scetching a game on your computer. All the
Jeroen> tools presume a story is already there and does not need
Jeroen> to be developed.
Jeroen> I used to write in wp5.1 and had all kinds of macros
Jeroen> that made indexes. No comments on that I could do it in
Jeroen> html, but I do not get a tool for indexing and managing
Jeroen> the story (what if I decide to delete one part of the
Jeroen> story, what hapens to the links to the page?) I could do
Jeroen> it in a database, but even in a relational database it is
Jeroen> hard to make the relations go more than one level deep,
Jeroen> and when you design the database you already have to limit
Jeroen> yourself to the amounts of links, the kinds of links etc
Jeroen> (and what about the global links, a book for instance you
Jeroen> could or could not find in storypart a234x999 and is from
Jeroen> that moment on accessible from all the parts in story part
Jeroen> A, but when you get to storypart B you get robbed so you
Jeroen> loose the book?)
It is not exactly what you mean but, did you ever hear about "literate
programming"? The concept (invented by Donald Knuth, who used it for
programming TeX) is hard to resume: the main idea is to have a
document (typically written in (La)TeX) which is at same time the
source code of a program and it documentation. This codument describes
the way your program works, in a way suitable for human readers, with
emphasis in readability. Interleaved with the documentation are
"chunks" of your actual code. Then, you can typeset and print this
document (this action is called "weaving") so you obtain a complete
manual with all your source code commented, with indexes, cross
references, and all of these typesetting sugar.
On the other hand, you can extract the code chunks from the document
(an action called "tangling"). This accion is made by a program which
finds the code chunks in your documentation, extracts them and places
them in the correct order (and files) expected by a compiler.
The concept of literate-programming makes independent the order of
exposition (documentation) of the program, suitable for being read by
humans, from the order which the compiler expects in the source code.
It also allows to decompose hierarchically the exposition, even if the
target language does not have hierarchy. You can use
literate-programming concepts for any conceivable programming language
(I used it with C, C++ and awk), so why not for an "history description
language" (kind of meta-novel, which documents the creative process of
the novel)?
If you are interested you can read more on literate programming in
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~nr/noweb/
I didn't (yet) programmed any IF, but I plan to do it in Inform and
using the literate programming paradigm. Anyone had experiences on
this subject and would will share?
JLD
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose Luis Diaz de Arriba e-mail: jd...@etsiig.uniovi.es
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Escobedo
I like discussion.. but don't spam me
saying that this can't or shouldn't be done.. it has
in other languages.
With programs like Inform IDE there should
be a way to make a totally visual programming of
a text adventure that will also let you edit the code
directly.
In fact what I'd like to see is something like CAVE
or SAGE or STORY HARP that writes code
in Inform (z-machine)
This has been done to an extent with Visual Basic, C
etc. and most of all with HTML.
I used to edit HTML in notepad and wordpad (as I do
Inform now) but there should be no reason that you
could not put down 'boxes' representing objects and
classes to sketch out your code and edit code
directly which can then be read into new boxes. More specific
and custom code could be added later because when
you turn off the editor... the script would be in Inform.
(The same could be done with TADS of course)
Anyone who does visual HTML editing... especially
with DREAMWEAVER knows what I mean. HTML
writers should also understand why I think it should be
in the Z-language. What if every web page was written
in a different language. Right now you can make a page
by hand (in note pad) move it in and out of several editors
with ease and it can be read by all browsers.
I think Interactive Fiction has a great future and should
be improved upon with drag and drop functionality.
If there are any programmers out there willing to do the
work I may have funds to give.
It's just ironic thought... a visual editor .. for a text game :-)
John Escobedo
T Raymond
>Anyone who does visual HTML editing... especially
>with DREAMWEAVER knows what I mean. HTML
>writers should also understand why I think it should be
>in the Z-language. What if every web page was written
>in a different language. Right now you can make a page
>by hand (in note pad) move it in and out of several editors
>with ease and it can be read by all browsers.
The problem with this is that any of these language examples you give
involve some visual (and generally graphical) output. This is not to
say that all programs work this way, but it's a technical point to the
conversation. HTML is a visual language, created to do exactly what it
does. The same can be said for any IF programming language as well.
When it comes right down to it, it can probably be done for IF as
well.
>
>I think Interactive Fiction has a great future and should
>be improved upon with drag and drop functionality.
>If there are any programmers out there willing to do the
>work I may have funds to give.
While I can't say I know of any programs already out there that do
this sort of thing, this functionality is already available with a
little work. You just need a decent text editor that supports a decent
macro or template function. Or, in a slightly more cumbersome manner,
any editor that allows you to insert text at the cursor.
This doesn't do much for the sketching idea, I'm not sure exactly what
you mean by that, unless you mean the wizard type interface that HTML
and other program type editors have, which is basically just a
template insert that prompts you for the parts you need to add
yourself.
I program in TADS. My dev tools include the Programmers File Editor,
a set of templates for objects, hooks for my compiler, interpreter,
manual viewer, and the ability to fully map the keyboard the way I
want it to. (The templates use <marker> which you can skip to at a
keypress, makes it easy to jump to the next piece of code I need to
input.)
The way I sketch my games is to write out an rough outline and then
start coding. As I decide something should be added, I insert the
template and finish the code for that object, save, repeat process.
That sounds about like what you say you're looking for. It's available
now. And to it's benefit, these tools could be used with any
programming language provided one has (or makes) the templates or
macros. Another thing I like besides all this functionality is that
it's all freeware, just like our IF languages. IMO, I think coding up
an editor just to give you wizards to do what can already be done in
the editor I spoke of, and others I'm sure, would be adding
'pocketfluff' that isn't really needed.
I hope this answers some of your questions and isn't a complete bunch
of raving. If it is, I apologize now. Of course, if anybody that
programs in TADS wants to know more about the editor let me know and
I'll post the link. I'd probably also be willing to share the
templates. Let me know.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tom Raymond adk @ usa.net
"All at once I knew that I knew nothing..."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeroen Goulooze
indexing program or a way to index that can be used while you are
creating your code.
But seen the way creating a code works - you miss one comma and the
whole system tumbles down - it might not what is really needed here.
What I'm thinking of is a program that will be used *BEFORE* the coding
starts. It should be a map creating tool that is at the same time a
database with records that contain pointers to other records (children,
parents, and maybe groups of items, asnd of course the globals).
although coding is a creative process, it can be a real pain when it has
to be done when you are trying to be creative in another way.
What I'm working on right now is a program that shows you a grid as its
main interface. The grid is 9 * 9 dots, but the grid can be made bigger.
The grid is what I call the map. Since it is the first map, lets call it
M1.
You create several storyparts (in text) and they are inserted in a
database. You have three stories. They are called T1, T2 and T3. You
place the story parts on the grid and make connections between the
storyparts so that you have a choice to go from T1 to T2 or To T3. Now
the map M1 contains a link to T1, T2, T3, and the storyparts itself have
links to one another. When you go to the database and select M1 you see
the links to the storyparts as its children and if you select T1, you
see M1 as its parent and T2 and T3 as its children.
When you go from T1 to T3 you can then go to another part of the story
that is to big to be on the map, so you create another map for that.
Lets call the map M2. So in the database T3 has T1 as its parent and M2
as its child.
Now I decide to create a new storypart that lies between T1 and T3. Lets
call it T4. You place it on the grid (and perhaps make some room) and
erase the link between T1 and T3 and create two new links from T1 to T4
and from T4 to T3.
Next to that I was thinking about adding other kinds of links, for
example: the scene. A scene can contain stories and objects.
The object is not to create a tool that renders a nice looking story to
an audience, but presents a story a programer can work with: he or she
has a visual representation and a means to check wether r not all the
links he or she made in the end program are correct. (I worked on some
projects as a writer with a programer/designer who worked in flash. It
sometimes is a real pain to find the answer to what went wrong where.)
I tried doing this before in a relational database, but it did not work,
since realtions have to go more than one level deep, and you have to
limit yourself while creating a database to a certan design. So that's
why I ended up with a language that allows creating lists inside lists
etc, and has a drawing interface.
Jeroen Goulooze
Jim Aikin
> What I'm thinking of is a program that will be used *BEFORE* the coding
> starts. It should be a map creating tool that is at the same time a
> database with records that contain pointers to other records (children,
> parents, and maybe groups of items, asnd of course the globals).
If you'll forgive the presumption, what I use is a three-ring binder.
When the map of the rooms gets too messy, I copy it over by hand, with a
pencil. I also have a word processor file containing lists of everything
in my game -- objects, their initial locations, the puzzles they're used
in, etc. I'll admit it's not always a piece of cake to find the code I
want to work on in a large file ... but that's what the Find utility is
for. Search for By_The_Birdbath, and you're there. No messy databases.
Tools are lovely things, and finely crafted tools are a treasure for
kings, but sometimes you just gotta roll up your sleeves, grab a hammer,
and drive the damn nails, you know?
--Jim Aikin
Jim Aikin
> What I'm thinking of is a program that will be used *BEFORE* the coding
> starts. It should be a map creating tool that is at the same time a
> database with records that contain pointers to other records (children,
> parents, and maybe groups of items, asnd of course the globals).
...mumble mumble, still fulminating to myself about this thread while I
brew a cup of ginger root tea. See, the thing is ... well, here's
Aikin's Law, which I just formulated, though I've been staring it in the
face for years:
ADVANCED SOFTWARE TOOLS NEVER WORK RIGHT
And the corollary is, the more advanced they are, the less well they
work. Now: If the user base, the target customer base, is large enough,
and if the task is well defined enough, the software tools will work
relatively better. Tax software, for instance, works pretty well,
because (a) there's a HUGE base of customers to pay off the R&D, and (b)
the Tax Code is very precisely defined. But when the user base is small
and/or not willing to pay untold thousands of dollars for good software
tools, and when the task is, by its nature, poorly defined -- i.e.,
partly intuitive, amazingly complex, open to interpretation, etc. -- in
that case, smoothly functioning tools cannot, in principle, be built.
I'm not saying, "They haven't been built yet," I'm saying they CAN'T be
built.
One of the things I do for a living is, I review software. Music
software, which is a lot smaller market than tax software. Just today I
was installing Steinberg Cubase VST 4.0 on a G3 Mac, in order to test
another program. I've been a Cubase user for years. It's an amazing
creative tool. But it DOESN'T WORK RIGHT. I'm sure this bug is fixed by
now, but as of version 4.0 (and this software is at least 10 years old),
the UNDO function is broken for MIDI recording. There could hardly be a
more glaring blunder, but they burned it onto the CD and shipped it.
Also, the metronome click doesn't give you a proper count-in if you only
want one bar of count-in. And the grid in the piano-roll editor
disappears unless you activate the snap tool.
I could go on and on. Nobody in raif cares about the details, and please
nobody tell the folks at Steinberg that I'm badmouthing them on the Net,
because I'm a professional. Thank kew. It's a great program. And it
sucks. I could say the same thing about any of the major sequencers.
The point is, the more complex a set of challenges you set for the
software, and the smaller the market, the more likely it is that you'll
get a tool that doesn't do what you want or need it to do. If you nag
the folks who wrote it until they update it to do what you envision,
guess what? That will break a feature that somebody else is relying on.
Welcome to VERSION HELL.
I will now go away somewhere and hit myself in the head with a hammer
until I feel better.
--Jim Aikin
Erik Max Francis
> ...mumble mumble, still fulminating to myself about this thread while
> I
> brew a cup of ginger root tea. See, the thing is ... well, here's
> Aikin's Law, which I just formulated, though I've been staring it in
> the
> face for years:
>
> ADVANCED SOFTWARE TOOLS NEVER WORK RIGHT
You mean advanced software tools programmed by idiots never work right.
It's hard to make something complicated work well, but _never_ is a word
you should never use. (har.)
--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon (efnet) / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
\
/ The golden rule is that there are no golden rules.
/ George Bernard Shaw
R. Alan Monroe
>This doesn't do much for the sketching idea, I'm not sure exactly what
>you mean by that, unless you mean the wizard type interface that HTML
>and other program type editors have, which is basically just a
>template insert that prompts you for the parts you need to add
>yourself.
I'm picturing what the original poster talked about differently.
I attended a graphic design conference once where a lady showed a
video of a research project (please don't request details as I have
none) in information visualization. There were loads of individual
text items, that all floated some distance from each other in an
infinite black void. They were connected by lines. You could navigate
this space in 3d. With the recent popularity of 3d accelerators,
someone could probably hack something like this together on a pc these
days. Then you could see the interdependence of your plot points and
paths. It would be neat, if nothing else.
Have fun
Alan
R. Alan Monroe
>Now I decide to create a new storypart that lies between T1 and T3. Lets
>call it T4. You place it on the grid (and perhaps make some room) and
>erase the link between T1 and T3 and create two new links from T1 to T4
>and from T4 to T3.
>has a visual representation and a means to check wether r not all the
>links he or she made in the end program are correct. (I worked on some
This would be a killer toy, IMHO.
Have fun
Alan
T Raymond
>Several remarks have been added about the possibility to create an
>indexing program or a way to index that can be used while you are
>creating your code.
>
>But seen the way creating a code works - you miss one comma and the
>whole system tumbles down - it might not what is really needed here.
>
>What I'm thinking of is a program that will be used *BEFORE* the coding
>starts. It should be a map creating tool that is at the same time a
>database with records that contain pointers to other records (children,
>parents, and maybe groups of items, asnd of course the globals).
>
ok, I've got a better idea what you were asking about now. Call me
old-fashioned, but that's what I use graph paper for. It's about the
only thing drawn that comes from my hands that might ever be
considered art of any kind.
>What I'm working on right now is a program that shows you a grid as its
>main interface. The grid is 9 * 9 dots, but the grid can be made bigger.
>The grid is what I call the map. Since it is the first map, lets call it
> M1.
>
>You create several storyparts (in text) and they are inserted in a
>database. You have three stories. They are called T1, T2 and T3. You
>place the story parts on the grid and make connections between the
>storyparts so that you have a choice to go from T1 to T2 or To T3. Now
>the map M1 contains a link to T1, T2, T3, and the storyparts itself have
>links to one another. When you go to the database and select M1 you see
>the links to the storyparts as its children and if you select T1, you
>see M1 as its parent and T2 and T3 as its children.
>
Ok, resembling my drawn map with the room names and items written into
the blocks that represent the room. I suffer a little with notes, the
end up along the sides.
[snip]
>The object is not to create a tool that renders a nice looking story to
>an audience, but presents a story a programer can work with: he or she
>has a visual representation and a means to check wether r not all the
>links he or she made in the end program are correct. (I worked on some
>projects as a writer with a programer/designer who worked in flash. It
>sometimes is a real pain to find the answer to what went wrong where.)
I work around this part by using various files, one for rooms and
major items that go in them, one for actors and their objects, one for
misc. objects, etc. This is where something like you are suggesting
would be helpful.
>
>I tried doing this before in a relational database, but it did not work,
>since realtions have to go more than one level deep, and you have to
>limit yourself while creating a database to a certan design. So that's
>why I ended up with a language that allows creating lists inside lists
>etc, and has a drawing interface.
>
So you need an object oriented language to work with objects, sounds
just like IF! :) I don't know much about the programming involved, but
it certainly sounds very complex, and depending on what you use for a
language to code it in, it could be vastly large (the actual program
files I mean). I tend to go for minimal and functional, as mentioned
in my first post. I'd be interested to see what you come up with if it
fits into those parameters.
Hope this helps a little more than the last post with your thoughts on
it all.
Tom
Andy Fischer
>I'm picturing what the original poster talked about differently.
>I attended a graphic design conference once where a lady showed a
>video of a research project (please don't request details as I have
>none) in information visualization. There were loads of individual
>text items, that all floated some distance from each other in an
>infinite black void. They were connected by lines. You could navigate
>this space in 3d. With the recent popularity of 3d accelerators,
>someone could probably hack something like this together on a pc these
>days. Then you could see the interdependence of your plot points and
>paths. It would be neat, if nothing else.
>
There's a great program out there for Windows, called "The Brain". It's a way
of organizing information this way.. with traversable nodes that have parents,
children, and siblings. It's really neat- each node can be a picture, web page,
text document, etc. You are free to make connections across the map, between
even the most vaguely related topics. And the animated interface is very good,
considering how difficult it is to interact with such a non-linear structure.
Their idea is that it represents how information is stored in the brain. I
don't think they quite reached this goal, but the set-up is much much more easy
to gloss over than a text document.
Although I tried using the program for things like keeping track of class notes
and planning IF projects, I eventually gave it up because it just wasn't
practical. YMMV; and at the least, it is *definitely* worth checking out, if
just for the experience. http://www.thebrain.com. I'm pretty sure they have
some 30-day free trial or something like that.
Andy
David Cornelson
>In article <36E7A311...@cultimo.nl>, jero...@bigfoot.com admitted:
>>Several remarks have been added about the possibility to create an
>>indexing program or a way to index that can be used while you are
>>creating your code.
I wrote it a year ago and it's again available for download from the Inform
for New Writers web site at http://www.placet.com/int-fiction.
It's Win32 only though.
Jarb
jero...@my-dejanews.com
I don't mean and don't want to offend anybody:
I've seen the pages, and I'm sure it is a great tool for *RENDERING* a story
to present it to an audience (as far as I understood the way the program
works), but it I'm not sure it is a great tool that helps a writer to create
a visual representation of his or her own story, that will help him during
the process of creation. That way of representating a story is only of use
for the writer: it could contain a map, where items (stories, scenes, other
maps, doors, etc) are positioned, and at the same time it is a database where
all the loose ends of your story are gathered (with info about. parents,
children, links, maybe some other stuff there as well).
I think you're program is more of a programing environment. The thing I want
helps me work with the stage before I begin coding, before I've chosen my way
of representing a story to an audience. I'm trying to look for an example but
I don't think I can find one because there is nothing out there that works
the same way.
Well, any way, a good world can become quite large, and using graph paper,
only works so far (if you get to over 400 storyparts and 25 endings: who
dares to recreate the map in better way? The chance of overlooking one of
your connections is to great a risk ) And what if you create a bigger world
than that? A program like that would end some of the limitations of the human
kind.
Jeroen Goulooze
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jeroen Goulooze
Jim Aikin <jaikin.dea...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> And the corollary is, the more advanced they are, the less well they
> work. Now: If the user base, the target customer base, is large enough,
> and if the task is well defined enough, the software tools will work
> relatively better. Tax software, for instance, works pretty well,
> because (a) there's a HUGE base of customers to pay off the R&D, and (b)
> the Tax Code is very precisely defined. But when the user base is small
> and/or not willing to pay untold thousands of dollars for good software
> tools, and when the task is, by its nature, poorly defined -- i.e.,
> partly intuitive, amazingly complex, open to interpretation, etc. -- in
> that case, smoothly functioning tools cannot, in principle, be built.
> I'm not saying, "They haven't been built yet," I'm saying they CAN'T be
> built.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm trying to define a set of rules. Maybe this is a
place to do that. Others could try to implement those rules in their
software.
Technically it must not be so hard (a database within a graphical
environment). It is the rules that are the most important. How do parts
behave, some prefs that can be set.
I tried it before, but worked with a relational database. But relational
databases do not go deep enough, are not flexible enough etc.
So the answer will probably lie in a language that suports lists in lists and
arrays in arrays, that can be dymanicy altered. Lisp? Well that's an oldy.
(I'm doing it on the Newton: gives a unique way to use those features + a
drawing interface, but allas, no comfort for others)
Jeroen Goulooze
PS Don't hit yourself to hard....
> One of the things I do for a living is, I review software. Music
> software, which is a lot smaller market than tax software. Just today I
> was installing Steinberg Cubase VST 4.0 on a G3 Mac, in order to test
> another program. I've been a Cubase user for years. It's an amazing
> creative tool. But it DOESN'T WORK RIGHT. I'm sure this bug is fixed by
> now, but as of version 4.0 (and this software is at least 10 years old),
> the UNDO function is broken for MIDI recording. There could hardly be a
> more glaring blunder, but they burned it onto the CD and shipped it.
> Also, the metronome click doesn't give you a proper count-in if you only
> want one bar of count-in. And the grid in the piano-roll editor
> disappears unless you activate the snap tool.
>
> I could go on and on. Nobody in raif cares about the details, and please
> nobody tell the folks at Steinberg that I'm badmouthing them on the Net,
> because I'm a professional. Thank kew. It's a great program. And it
> sucks. I could say the same thing about any of the major sequencers.
>
> The point is, the more complex a set of challenges you set for the
> software, and the smaller the market, the more likely it is that you'll
> get a tool that doesn't do what you want or need it to do. If you nag
> the folks who wrote it until they update it to do what you envision,
> guess what? That will break a feature that somebody else is relying on.
> Welcome to VERSION HELL.
>
> I will now go away somewhere and hit myself in the head with a hammer
> until I feel better.
>
> --Jim Aikin
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Jeroen Goulooze
"David Cornelson" <dcorn...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> T Raymond wrote in message <7ca08j$t3$2...@news.clarkson.edu>...
> >In article <36E7A311...@cultimo.nl>, jero...@bigfoot.com admitted:
> >>Several remarks have been added about the possibility to create an
> >>indexing program or a way to index that can be used while you are
> >>creating your code.
>
> I wrote it a year ago and it's again available for download from the Inform
> for New Writers web site at http://www.placet.com/int-fiction.
>
> It's Win32 only though.
>
> Jarb
>
I believe I posted a wrong reaction on your post earlier. I Thought you meant
Inform. Sorry,
But a problem: Have a mac and a 286 DOS machine (I mean two, no three), and a
Newton.
I shall try to find someone who I can use to try the prog...
Jeroen
Andrew Plotkin
> [imagining a tool that] that helps a writer to create
> a visual representation of his or her own story, that will help him during
> the process of creation. That way of representating a story is only of use
> for the writer: it could contain a map, where items (stories, scenes, other
> maps, doors, etc) are positioned, and at the same time it is a database where
> all the loose ends of your story are gathered (with info about. parents,
> children, links, maybe some other stuff there as well).
> I think you're program is more of a programing environment. The thing I want
> helps me work with the stage before I begin coding, before I've chosen my way
> of representing a story to an audience.
I can see one obvious problem: like all battle plans, the pre-coding plan
does not survive contact with the enemy. As soon as you get into coding,
you start changing things.
Now you're faced with twice as much work. Every time you change something,
you have to make the change in two places, and then you must verify that
they're in sync. Otherwise you lose all the benefits of your design tool;
there can be loose ends you don't know about.
This is why these ideas always tend towards being programming
environments.
This is not to say the idea is unusable. I can imagine something like a
whiteboard with some specialization for IF plotting -- a brainstorming
tool rather than a guarantee-maintaining code-generator.
That runs straight into another problem: there are a lot of different ways
to put together an IF game. Whatever story model you're thinking of, other
people do it differently. A single piece of software runs into a real risk
of straitjacketing a single approach.
These are interesting problems.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Jeroen Goulooze
(Research for a GUI based IF tool). I would like other people to comment
on this. The tool I have in mind creates a structure that could later on
be used to create a program with any of the other tools available. It
would not be a programing presentation or whatever environment itself.
It is a tool that helps you cope with your limited brain capacity that
comes with the fact that you are a human being.
Someone stated that with a tool like that you not only have to change
your program, but also the map you have created with the GUI. That is
not what I ment. As a writer I work with programers, I'm not a programer
myself: they create a program based on the structure presented to them.
And I dont't think I'm the only one who works that way. (What I do work
on are not stories by the way, but a commercial job as a writer for the
internet/interactive presentations. I intend to use the tool foor my
freetime writing too.)
Jeoen Goulooze
John
I downloaded "The Brain" and plan to buy it... it's GREAT!
John
----------
In article <7ca1q9$9...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, ap...@cornell.edu (Andy
Doeadeer3
>From: Jeroen Goulooze <in...@cultimo.nl>
>Date: 3/14/99 6:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
>I put an atempt to describe all possible elements in this newsgroup
>(Research for a GUI based IF tool). I would like other people to comment
>on this. The tool I have in mind creates a structure that could later on
>be used to create a program with any of the other tools available. It
>would not be a programing presentation or whatever environment itself.
>It is a tool that helps you cope with your limited brain capacity that
>comes with the fact that you are a human being.
Being primarily visual in how I conceptualize, I THINK I followed a great deal
of what you said.
Well, I like it. But it would be tricky, there is no doubt. And as Zarf said
you could inadvertantly add "rules", a structure on to how create a game that
would not work for someone else as well or for everyone.
But it doesn't mean it couldn't be done. And I think it could be done with
existing, languages such as Inform and Tads.
I use a whiteboard to lay out the environment of my games (as they develop)...
I have found this more useful than grids, graph paper etc. because I don't
always want to perceive my rooms as SQUARE. Then I can write in objects,
puzzles, NPCs, etc. on the white board and keep track of what I am doing.
Because the bigger my game gets the harder it gets to keep track of where
everything is and the sequence of events. The big advantage is whiteboard is
erasable. So I can easily change my mind, move an object over there, move a
puzzle over there, change the sequence of events. Change the structure and,
ergo, the plot development.
Seems to me you are speaking of (in general) of a computer white board
approach.
Good idea. Keep thinking. Good luck.
Doe :-)
Doe doea...@aol.com (formerly known as FemaleDeer)
****************************************************************************
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain
T Raymond
>I use a whiteboard to lay out the environment of my games (as they develop)...
>I have found this more useful than grids, graph paper etc. because I don't
>always want to perceive my rooms as SQUARE. Then I can write in objects,
Just a note about room shape, I use a flowchart template to draw
rooms, tha gives me round, triangle, square, and few others ;)
BTW, thanks for the feedback about my tutorial question :)
Jeroen Goulooze
needed to create an if writers tool. Also looked at some math problems
with examples like: you have two ilands with seven bridges. How do you
create a route that lets you cross every bridge only once.
Jeroen Goulooze