tads v inform?
Ahab
haven't seen anything to answer it so here goes: (this will probably be a
long winded cry-for-help post so read at your own risk!)
I'm trying to write an image oriented adventure. Generally don't like
graphics in text games - for me they usually just detract from the
atmosphere you create yourself - but the idea for this is kind of an
interactive comic (not glorious-technicolour-animated-point-and-click stuff
but more hand-inked panels to accompany text driven storyline). For me comic
art and storytelling is a criminally underused (and over-adapted) medium.
Anyway, the question seems to be TADS or Inform?
I've started on tads as it's the first one I found but looks like it may
turn out to be restrictive in the long run. Inform I know even less about
but get the feeling (no idea why, apart from maybe some form of random
psychic osmosis) that it may be more flexible in this area.
Without wanting to create a pissing ground for dedicated followers of each,
I'd be interested in hearing opinions, analyses, pros and cons etc. to get
an idea of which would work best with what I'm doing.
Interested in things like:
-seperate text boxes (one or maybe two)
-positioning of images in various areas of the screen
-overlapping of images
-font control
(I'm kind've making these requirements up as I go along as I only have a
fragmented idea as to how this is going to work).
I've played a couple of games from each system, (usually I spend my
'adventure' time claiming sweet sweet vengeance on the beeb games that
defeated me all those years ago!) but all text only (or at least they were
through my interpreters) so any links to the more graphics orientated stuff
would also be appreciated.
Well this is going from long winded to epic so I'll exert some control over
my quivering fingers and stop typing.
Except to say thanks in advance for any input,
Ahab.
Nikos Chantziaras
news:b89oam$g6j$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> [...]
> Anyway, the question seems to be TADS or Inform?
>
> I've started on tads as it's the first one I found but looks like it may
> turn out to be restrictive in the long run.
HTML Tads has good support for graphics.
> Inform I know even less about but get the feeling (no idea why, apart
> from maybe some form of random psychic osmosis) that it may be more
> flexible in this area.
More flexible, no. Different, yes.
> Without wanting to create a pissing ground for dedicated followers of
each,
> I'd be interested in hearing opinions, analyses, pros and cons etc. to get
> an idea of which would work best with what I'm doing.
>
> Interested in things like:
> -seperate text boxes (one or maybe two)
> -positioning of images in various areas of the screen
> -overlapping of images
> -font control
> (I'm kind've making these requirements up as I go along as I only have a
> fragmented idea as to how this is going to work).
Overlapping images aren't possible with Tads. Hmm, are they in Inform? I
never saw a game doing such a thing.
> I've played a couple of games from each system, (usually I spend my
> 'adventure' time claiming sweet sweet vengeance on the beeb games that
> defeated me all those years ago!) but all text only (or at least they were
> through my interpreters) so any links to the more graphics orientated
stuff
> would also be appreciated.
"Six Stories" (Tads 2), "Guilty Bastards" (Hugo) and "Lock and Key" (Inform)
have graphics. You can find them in the archive (search for them in
http://wurb.com/if/).
Here's what I think about the three major IF-languages:
Tads: Clean and powerful (you know C++, you know Tads).
Inform: Ugly (hacky language I never was able to learn).
Hugo: Strange (good for beginners, "offensive" to programmers).
By the way, the most "High-Tech" system these days is Tads 3.
-- Niko
http://members.lycos.co.uk/realnc
LoneCleric
> Hugo: Strange (good for beginners, "offensive" to programmers).
I'm a professional software developer and a Hugo devotee. Maybe I'm less
easily offended than most, but I don't really believe that.
> By the way, the most "High-Tech" system these days is Tads 3.
Well, based solely on what I've seen posted on these newsgroups, my
current opinion of TADS 3 is: "No quite finished yet", meaning a game
written today might not work tomorrow.
But hey, as soon as Kent says "That's it! Screw Hugo, you guys are on
your own...", I'll certainly look into TADS. :-)
LC
L. Ross Raszewski
<insomania...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>I've started on tads as it's the first one I found but looks like it may
>turn out to be restrictive in the long run. Inform I know even less about
>but get the feeling (no idea why, apart from maybe some form of random
>psychic osmosis) that it may be more flexible in this area.
Inform, using Glulx or V6 is somewhat more flexible, but much more
complex. I have no idea how T3's abilities stack up; I get the feeling
that it has a little more flexibility than T2, but I assume it
sacrifices some of the ease-of-use when exercizing this.
>Interested in things like:
>-seperate text boxes (one or maybe two)
>-positioning of images in various areas of the screen
>-overlapping of images
>-font control
>(I'm kind've making these requirements up as I go along as I only have a
>fragmented idea as to how this is going to work).
>
The first three are available in Inform. Font control may be possible
in TADS, but I doubt it. It's not available in Inform (with a caveat;
using GREX, it's possible to create fonts which can be used to print
text inside a graphic window. But this is (a) slow, and (b) tedious,
so it's pretty much only applicable in highly specialized situations)
It really doesn't sound, from the way you describe the project, like
this is really the sort of thing the IF tools are well-suited for.
Plugh!
Btw, the answer is HTML TADS, as evinced in ...
The HTML Tads sketch
--------------------
Mr. Bun: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
Mr. Bun: Well, what you got?
Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and
HTML Tads; egg, bacon and HTML Tads; egg, bacon, sausage and HTML
Tads; HTML Tads, bacon,
sausage and HTML Tads; HTML Tads, egg, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, bacon and
HTML Tads; HTML Tads,
sausage, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, bacon, HTML Tads, tomato and
HTML Tads; HTML Tads, HTML Tads,
HTML Tads, egg and HTML Tads; (Vikings start singing in background)
HTML Tads, HTML Tads,
HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, baked beans, HTML Tads,
HTML Tads, HTML Tads and HTML Tads.
Vikings: HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, lovely HTML Tads,
lovely HTML Tads.
Waitress: (cont) or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sauce,
served in the purple salm Mr. Bunor with chalots and overshies,
garnished with truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and HTML Tads.
Mrs. Bun: Have you got anything without HTML Tads?
Waitress: Well, there's HTML Tads, egg, sausage and HTML Tads. That's
not got
much HTML Tads in it.
Mrs. Bun: I don't want any HTML Tads!
Mr. Bun: Why can't she have egg, bacon, HTML Tads and sausage?
Mrs. Bun: That's got HTML Tads in it.
Mr. Bun: It hasn't got as much HTML Tads in it as HTML Tads, egg,
sausage and
HTML Tads has it?
Mrs. Bun: (over Vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon,
HTML Tads and sausage without the HTML Tads then?
Waitress: Ech!
Mrs. Bun: What do you mean ech! I don't like HTML Tads!
Vikings: Lovely HTML Tads, wonderful HTML Tads....etc
Waitress: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Bloody vikings. You can't have
egg, bacon, HTML Tads and sausage without the HTML Tads.
Mrs. Bun: I don't like HTML Tads!
Mr. Bun: Shh dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your HTML Tads. I
love it.
I'm having HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML
Tads, HTML Tads, baked beans,
HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads and HTML Tads. (starts Vikings off
again)
Vikings: Lovely HTML Tads, wonderful HTML Tads...etc
Waitress: Shut up! Baked beans are off.
Mr. Bun: Well, can I have her HTML Tads instead of the baked beans?
Waitress: You mean HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML
Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads,
HTML Tads, HTML Tads, HTML Tads, and HTML Tads?
Vikings: Lovely HTML Tads, wonderful HTML Tads...etc...HTML Tads, HTML
Tads, HTML Tads! (in
harmony)
Robb Sherwin
<lonec...@notreally.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> Hugo: Strange (good for beginners, "offensive" to programmers).
>I'm a professional software developer and a Hugo devotee. Maybe I'm less
> easily offended than most, but I don't really believe that.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as LC. I don't want to cause a pile-on or
anything, but I sort of find Hugo to be a relaxing language to write
in, compared to some of the ones I use at my job.
Hugo doesn't really let you squash a lot of commands and so forth into
a single line of code, though -- I gather that's kind of what Nikos
meant by offensive with quotes around it, and I'd agree with that. I
think it's a great language to learn how to code with since, unlike
some other learning candidates like BASIC, there's nothing in Hugo
that you have to "unlearn" later if you go on to pick up C++ or Lisp.
Robb
=-=-=-=-=-
Robb Sherwin, Fort Collins CO
Jolt Country BBS: www.joltcountry.com/phpBB2
Reviews From Trotting krips: www.joltcountry.com/trottingkrips
Joe Mason
> Hugo doesn't really let you squash a lot of commands and so forth into
> a single line of code, though -- I gather that's kind of what Nikos
> meant by offensive with quotes around it, and I'd agree with that. I
Good for it. Write-only languages are horrid and evil.
Joe
Arnel Legaspi
> This is probably a very old question here but after a few days of lurking I
> haven't seen anything to answer it so here goes: (this will probably be a
> long winded cry-for-help post so read at your own risk!)
It _is_ one of the oldest, and even now, as I'm learning Inform and
TADS 2, I still can't manage to answer the question -- as well as the
more "veteran" programmers around this group. And then there's TADS 3.
> I'm trying to write an image oriented adventure. Generally don't like
> graphics in text games - for me they usually just detract from the
> atmosphere you create yourself - but the idea for this is kind of an
> interactive comic (not glorious-technicolour-animated-point-and-click stuff
> but more hand-inked panels to accompany text driven storyline). For me comic
> art and storytelling is a criminally underused (and over-adapted) medium.
>
> Anyway, the question seems to be TADS or Inform?
Here's the thing. You might want to try out the games Nikos mentioned.
As far as HTML TADS goes, the best-looking graphical game I've seen
IMHO is Peter Nepstad's "1893". Though I've only looked at screenshots
of the game, I'm impressed, and its features might just be the things
you're looking for (with some modifications, of course).
Regarding overlapping of images, David Kinder's Frotz for Windows has
a Blorb example file ("parrot.blb") that contains a graphic image you
could overlap on itself while playing with your mouse. I'm not sure if
that's what you meant, and I'm sure David might have a much better
response at this.
Hugo allows for graphics and text to be separated into "windows" of
sort, which looks really good while playing (another game in mind with
graphics is "Fallacy of Dawn"). Don't know about the "image
overlapping" part, though. But since you mentioned making an
"interactive comic", I would probably go for Hugo.
If you're thinking of using Inform as a programming language, you'll
definitely want to learn Glulx for the graphics. Try the Blorb version
of "Balances".
That's just for the graphics. As to programming, you'd get better
insight from others more adept. Here's one tip, though, about TADS 2
or 3: TADS 3 is still a new system, and a lot of changes can happen
before you know it. Maybe when it's more "stable" you'd want to try
it. TADS 2 is better that way, and it involves lesser complications.
Good luck,
Arnel
Stephen Granade
TADS allows font control through use of the HTML <FONT> tag, though
that is as fraught with trouble as the actual use of <FONT> tags in
HTML. If you wanted to use a specific font, you'd have to be fairly
confident that said font would be available on most all of the
computers where your game would be played.
T3 can do separate text boxes through its banner API, though those
banners cannot be arbitrarily positioned. The banners work by
splitting windows.
> It really doesn't sound, from the way you describe the project, like
> this is really the sort of thing the IF tools are well-suited for.
That's my overall reaction as well.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade
ste...@granades.com
Ahab
Downloading a lot of the reccomended right now, so far I've only played 'six
stories', but I reckon I'm fairly sold on tads. Reason being it seems pretty
easy to learn (I'll probably retract that once I get past the basics
though!)
Hugo seems like a love or hate thing but I'm attracted by the stepping stone
to C etc. business as my only programming experience is bbc basic from days
of yore (which I've mostly forgotten or I'd rewrite my great first long-lost
adventure on beebem!)
It's interesting that two people have said that IF seems the wrong way to
go. Could you expand on that? This project is still really in the foetal
stage of conception (contradictary image maybe but you know what I mean!)
with no concrete idea as to presentation so I'm not sure if this is just a
knee-jerk reaction from purists to the association of 'comics' with IF. If
not can you suggest a better direction?
To try and clarify the idea a bit further (for myself as much as anyone),
I'm aiming for a firmly text driven parser and storyline with maybe a
stronger than usual emphasis on character interaction, and mandatory images
to help carry the emotional/intellectual subtext.
Basically, I just want to tell a good story in the best way I know how, and
make people work to hear it (and maybe manipulate thought proccesses and
ideology oh so slightly along the way...)
Not really sure if all that opens up the thread or closes it but if you can
pick out a bit of this post to expand/clarify/rant on please do - it's all
helped so far.
Except maybe the 'html tads' sketch! Seems strangely familiar but I keep
expecting a sequel...
Ahab.
Stephen Granade
> It's interesting that two people have said that IF seems the wrong way to
> go. Could you expand on that? This project is still really in the foetal
> stage of conception (contradictary image maybe but you know what I mean!)
> with no concrete idea as to presentation so I'm not sure if this is just a
> knee-jerk reaction from purists to the association of 'comics' with IF. If
> not can you suggest a better direction?
I was one of the people you're referring to. What I said is not that
IF was the wrong way to go, but that a language specifically geared
for IF may not be. Inform, TADS, and Hugo are geared to text first,
graphics second. The graphics capabilities of them have been improving
noticeably over the last five years or so, but it's still the case of
a graphical I/O model grafted on top of a text one. Since your
conception of what you want to do is so vague, it's possible that what
you want to do will work in TADS or one of the other languages. But
when you start talking about overlapping graphics and the like, it
makes me think that a general-purpose language with more
graphics-oriented output may be the way to go, despite the need to
roll your own parser.
Or, if you're not as interested about portability, call OS-specific
routines from within your game written in an IF-specific language,
something TADS 2 can do (though it's not a facility many have
used). Or see if you can get permission to add the graphics
capabilities you're thinking of to TADS, Inform, or Hugo.
Kent Tessman
> -seperate text boxes (one or maybe two)
Hugo can do this.
> -positioning of images in various areas of the screen
Hugo can do this.
> -overlapping of images
Hugo can do this.
> -font control
Hugo does this only in a limited fashion, but with (arguably) good reason.
"Nikos Chantziaras" <for....@manager.de> wrote in message
news:b89um9$7vis2$1...@ID-151409.news.dfncis.de...
> Here's what I think about the three major IF-languages:
>
> Tads: Clean and powerful (you know C++, you know Tads).
> Inform: Ugly (hacky language I never was able to learn).
> Hugo: Strange (good for beginners, "offensive" to programmers).
>
> By the way, the most "High-Tech" system these days is Tads 3.
I have no idea what any of this means.
--Kent
Ahab
"Stephen Granade" <ste...@granades.com> wrote in message
>
> I was one of the people you're referring to..... <snip>
I get your point this time. (rereading that bit of my own reply comes across
a bit presumptuous - thanks for not taking offence!) Particularly interested
in the bit about calling routines from tads - do you know of an example I
could look at?
Although there have been some fairly contradictary replies on this thread
they're all interesting and I think I'm getting a clearer idea of what I
can/cannot do with these tools. As far as I can tell most problems I'm
likely to run into can be side-stepped one way or another. Reckon I'll just
get stuck in and cross the bridges as I come to them.
It's turned into more of a tads v hugo debate so I reckon I might give the
latter a day in court. Thanks all for the help and keep posting if you think
of anything else!
Cheers,
Ahab.
Franco
You might want to take a look at the Quest Markup Language
(www.questml.com) if a parser is not necessary.
Stephen Granade
> "Stephen Granade" <ste...@granades.com> wrote in message
> >
> > I was one of the people you're referring to..... <snip>
>
> I get your point this time. (rereading that bit of my own reply comes across
> a bit presumptuous - thanks for not taking offence!) Particularly interested
> in the bit about calling routines from tads - do you know of an example I
> could look at?
I don't, unfortunately. Appendix F of the TADS 2 manual, which you can
read at http://www.tela.bc.ca/tads-manual/tads-f.html, talks about
them.
Arnel Legaspi
> > -overlapping of images
>
> Hugo can do this.
Is there a good example for this? I haven't seen it in the Hugo games
I've tried ("Guilty Bastards", "Fallacy of Dawn").
Of course, if something like that happens within those two games I've
mentioned...^_^
> > -font control
>
> Hugo does this only in a limited fashion, but with (arguably) good reason.
I think Hugo does it OK, or at least within my own needs. If you don't
mind, though, could you elaborate on that?
Thanks,
--Arnel
Kent Tessman
news:39ff5340.0304...@posting.google.com...
> Kent Tessman answered:
>
> > > -overlapping of images
> >
> > Hugo can do this.
>
> Is there a good example for this? I haven't seen it in the Hugo games
> I've tried ("Guilty Bastards", "Fallacy of Dawn").
Neither of those games do it, that I recall offhand. But there are WIP
projects that I'm aware of that do. Hugo allows arbitrary placement of an
image anywhere in the playing area, and it won't stop you from drawing over
something (text or image) that's already there.
> > > -font control
> >
> > Hugo does this only in a limited fashion, but with (arguably) good
reason.
>
> I think Hugo does it OK, or at least within my own needs. If you don't
> mind, though, could you elaborate on that?
Hugo allows a program to dynamically change font face and
foreground/background color. Like most other major system interpreters, the
Hugo Engine allows player-selectable font families and point sizes.
What it doesn't allow is runtime selection of font family by the program,
i.e., so that a program can choose to print something in Helvetica
immediately followed by Palatino Linotype with a stop off for Franklin
Gothic Medium. Aside of platform compatibility issues, I admit to being put
off by just how awful poorly designed HTML pages can look with
ill-thought-out font selection (for all sorts of reasons, including the
degree to which font-matching algorithms can screw up if they don't find the
font the program is asking for).
--Kent