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Brian Bethel

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Greetings, all.

I've read through the FAQs and whatnot and downloaded some of the most
popular design kits. None seem to really appeal.

I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.

Any more "intuitive" IF packages out there?

Thanks for your aid.

Brian

Agbampton

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Brian said:-

Persoanl opinion only here -
Inform I'd say is definitely not for the guy who doesn't want to get into
coding, while Alan is probably the easiest of all the 'code based' systems to
actually learn.

If Alan is still too much like programming I'd suggest you try 'Quest' it's QDK
toolkit lets the author set up the vast bulk of a game through a no-code
interface.

However don't be fooled, you still will need to do some coding for the puzzles
and stuff you want to set, but Quest & QDK keeps that down to a minimum, and
the scripting language provided is pretty easy to use.

Just my $0.02.

If you can keep calm when all around you are losing their heads,
then you don't understand the gravity of the situation....

Mike Snyder

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Brian Bethel wrote in message <382137aa...@cnews.newsguy.com>...

>I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
>something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
>I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.

I haven't had a chance to check it out myself yet, but SUDS
(www.sudsystem.freeserve.co.uk) is being billed as a system that doesn't
require any programming.

Good luck!

Mike.

Eric Mayer

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 07:43:47 GMT, bria...@camalott.com (Brian Bethel)
wrote:

>Greetings, all.


>
>I've read through the FAQs and whatnot and downloaded some of the most
>popular design kits. None seem to really appeal.
>

>I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
>something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
>I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.
>

>Any more "intuitive" IF packages out there?
>
>Thanks for your aid.
>

Hi Brian,

I'm a writer by trade myself and have never done a lick of programming
but I found I was able to enter a playable game in the Comp within
five months of finding Alan. I know you mention you've looked at it
but did you download also Steve Griffiths' excellent tutorial which is
where I started? Having used Alan I still don't feel like I've done
any real programming because it seems to me like Thomas Nilsson, who
designed Alan, did 99 percent of the programming for me. To be fair,
I have not tried the programs like Qwest.
--
Eric Mayer
Web Site: <http://home.epix.net/~maywrite>
=====================================================
co-author of ONE FOR SORROW
A "John the Eunuch" mystery from Poisoned Pen Press
<http://www.poisonedpenpress.com/html/sorrow.html>
=====================================================
"The map is not the territory." -- Alfred Korzybski

Daryl McCullough

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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bria...@camalott.com says...

>
>Greetings, all.
>
>I've read through the FAQs and whatnot and downloaded some of the most
>popular design kits. None seem to really appeal.
>
>I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
>something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
>I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.
>
>Any more "intuitive" IF packages out there?

If you like writing, but not programming, why not team with
a programmer?

Daryl McCullough
CoGenTex, Inc.
Ithaca, NY


Roger Firth

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Mike Snyder wrote:

> Brian Bethel wrote in message <382137aa...@cnews.newsguy.com>...
>

> >I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
> >something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
> >I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.
>

> I haven't had a chance to check it out myself yet, but SUDS
> (www.sudsystem.freeserve.co.uk) is being billed as a system that doesn't
> require any programming.

On my limited experience, I'd have to disagree with the billing. I reckon
SUDS
needs exactly as much, or as little, programming as you'd need in any other
system.
All that differs is the way that you WRITE the program - selecting
programming
constructs by point'n'click rather than typing the words IF ... ELSE ...
ENDIF.
You've still got to perform the identical mental processes... with the
downside that,
at least as far as I can see, in Inform or ALAN you get a richer playing
environment
right out of the box. In SUDS, the initial canvas seems pretty bare.

Usual 2 cents disclaimer
Roger

========================================================================
Roger Firth

Andrew Plotkin

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Roger Firth <roger...@tesco.net> wrote:
>> I haven't had a chance to check it out myself yet, but SUDS
>> (www.sudsystem.freeserve.co.uk) is being billed as a system that doesn't
>> require any programming.
>
> On my limited experience, I'd have to disagree with the billing. I reckon
> SUDS
> needs exactly as much, or as little, programming as you'd need in any other
> system.
> All that differs is the way that you WRITE the program - selecting
> programming
> constructs by point'n'click rather than typing the words IF ... ELSE ...
> ENDIF.

I once saw a Pascal programming environment that worked that way.

It was, um, not highly regarded by the people who had to use it. (It was
for an introductory programming class that I, thank all the gods, placed
out of.)

> You've still got to perform the identical mental processes... with the
> downside that,
> at least as far as I can see, in Inform or ALAN you get a richer playing
> environment
> right out of the box. In SUDS, the initial canvas seems pretty bare.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

Liz

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Roger Firth <roger...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:3821CFF5...@tesco.net...

> You've still got to perform the identical mental processes... with the
> downside that,
> at least as far as I can see, in Inform or ALAN you get a richer playing
> environment
> right out of the box. In SUDS, the initial canvas seems pretty bare.
>
> Usual 2 cents disclaimer
> Roger
>
> ========================================================================
> Roger Firth
>
>
Just out of interest - can you define what a "richer playing environment"
exactly means?

Andy Elliot

Liz

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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Mike Snyder <wy...@prowler-pro.com> wrote in message
news:xGfU3.9410$AC1.1...@typhoon2.kc.rr.com...

>
> I haven't had a chance to check it out myself yet, but SUDS
> (www.sudsystem.freeserve.co.uk) is being billed as a system that doesn't
> require any programming.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Mike.
>
>

And the SUDS employee-of-the-month award goes to... hang on, this can't be
right....

;)

Andy Elliot

M. Wesley Osam

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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In article <382137aa...@cnews.newsguy.com>, bria...@camalott.com
(Brian Bethel) wrote:

> I've looked at Inform and Alan among others. What I'd really like is
> something that doesn't require a heck of a lot of actual programming.
> I'm a writer by trade, most definitely not a programmer.

Actually, I'd recommend that you experiment with TADS and Inform some
more. They look intimidating, but the "programming" aspects aren't as difficult
as they seem once you get into them. Most of the really hard work has
already been done. I'm a non-programmer myself--I tried to learn C a while
back and found it to be completely incomprehensible and alien to my way of
thinking--but I did pretty well with Inform.

Mind you, I've never actually had the willpower to complete a game, so what
do I know.

--
M. Wesley Osam "I saw death, and he was wearing
wo...@avalon.net your jeans jacket."
--Eliot McGucken,
http://www.avalon.net/~wosam _The Drake Raft Field Trip_

Kevin Forchione

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Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
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Daryl McCullough <da...@cogentex.com> wrote in message
news:7vsa6g$10...@edrn.newsguy.com...

>
> If you like writing, but not programming, why not team with
> a programmer?

This is the most practical idea. Anyone wishing to solely write or do light
coding could team up with a more experienced programmer. Instead of "dumbing
down" the packages, collaborate. People with story ideas hire ghost writers.
The advantages to this approach are that you don't have to worry about the
package itself, which becomes almost irrelevant. Let an expert in the field
handle the coding details.

This kind of collaboration happens all the time in the commercial side of
programming.

--Kevin

T Raymond

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Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
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"Kevin Forchione" <Lys...@email.msn.com> spoke about :

And we've got a nice (if small) list of people who are willing to help
with coding, and all sorts of other IF related bits available right in
the basement! the IF
Assistance List <http://www.geocities.com/athens/delphi/if>.

Tom

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tom Raymond adk @ usa.net
"The original professional ameteur."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

okbl...@my-deja.com

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Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
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In article <7vsusg$lih$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,

"Liz" <L...@liznandy.freeNOSPAMTAserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Just out of interest - can you define what a "richer playing
environment"
> exactly means?

To me it suggests a greater freedom of movement, action and interaction
with elements of the game environment. From a developer's standpoint,
it would include the system having various concepts built in. You know,
actions like taking, dropping, giving, eating, drinking, sitting,
standing, lying, speaking, listening, as well as orientations like
around, under, on, behind, in front of, attached to, and so on.

--
[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Roger Firth

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Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
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Liz'n'Andy wrote:

> Roger Firth <roger...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> news:3821CFF5...@tesco.net...
> > You've still got to perform the identical mental processes... with the
> > downside that,
> > at least as far as I can see, in Inform or ALAN you get a richer playing
> > environment
> > right out of the box. In SUDS, the initial canvas seems pretty bare.

> Just out of interest - can you define what a "richer playing environment"
> exactly means?

Sorry, sloppy choice of words. I was trying to suggest the variety
of options available to a game player - by default - without the
author having to do any work. Trivial (but complete) Inform example:

Constant Story "InforMinimal";
Constant Headline "^A basic INFORM program.^";

Include "Parser";
Include "VerbLib";

Object entrance_hall "Entrance hall"
with description "A bare room with an archway to the east.",
e_to central_lobby,
has light;

Object central_lobby "Central lobby"
with description "Another bare room with an archway to the west.",
w_to entrance_hall,
has light;

Object cat "tabby cat" entrance_hall
with description "Inscrutable, like all her kind.",
name 'cat' 'tabby' 'kitten',
has animate female;

Object apple "small green apple" central_lobby
with description "Looks like a traditional Granny Smith.",
name 'small' 'green' 'apple',
has edible;

[ Initialise; location = entrance_hall; ];

Include "Grammar";

I would argue that the amount of 'programming' there is tiny; even knowing
nothing about Inform, I'm pretty sure you could understand the gist of
what's going on. Here's a run-time transcript:

InforMinimal
A basic INFORM program.
Release 1 / Serial number 991105 / Inform v6.20 Library 6/8 S

Entrance hall
A bare room with an archway to the east.

You can see a tabby cat here.

>EXAMINE THE TABBY CAT
Inscrutable, like all her kind.

>TOUCH CAT
Keep your hands to yourself!

>TAKE HER
(the tabby cat)
I don't suppose the tabby cat would care for that.

>ASK CAT ABOUT THE GAME
There is no reply.

>LISTEN TO HER
You hear nothing unexpected.

>HIT HER
Violence isn't the answer to this one.

>GO EAST

Central lobby
Another bare room with an archway to the west.

You can see a small green apple here.

>TAKE THE SMALL GREEN APPLE
Taken.

>EXAMINE IT
Looks like a traditional Granny Smith.

>TASTE IT
You taste nothing unexpected.

>SMELL APPLE
You smell nothing unexpected.

>WEST

Entrance hall

You can see a tabby cat here.

>THROW IT AT HER
You lack the nerve when it comes to the crucial moment.

>EAT IT
You eat the small green apple. Not bad.

>CAT, GOODBYE
There is no reply.

>QUIT

So, by "richer playing environment" I was alluding to the ability
to interact with the objects in a (relatively) sophisticated way and
to receive responses which seem relevant and appropriate, even
for cases which the author might not have foreseen.

There's probably nothing there that can't be done with SUDS,
but I suspect it's quite a bit more work. And (apropose another thread)
we both know there's no way you can share that SUDS program in
the way that I just did for Inform :-(

Cheers, Roger

========================================================================
Roger Firth

Brian Bethel

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Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
to
I've spent a little time playing with ALAN and I'm actually starting to
like it somewhat. It's easy enough at least to create rooms and related
descriptions, and I've started playing around with objects a little.
Overall, it doesn't appear to be quite as bad as I expected, although I
can see how getting things to do exactly what you would want them to do
could be something of a chore. I spent a little while meditating on my
limited knowledge (I haven't printed out all of the tutorials and such
yet) and trying to divine how one would, for example, place an object
in a box. I'm sure it's incredibly simple, but I haven't gotten there
yet. ;) hehe

One thing I've noticed is that -- like this thread indicates -- as cool
as Alan is, Inform seems even richer when it comes to its built-in
environment. With certain exceptions, it seems that you have to "build
in" support for commands other than basic directions and a few others.
Alan doesn't even appear to support standard direction abbreviations
(i.e. n, s, e, w, etc.) right out of the box, while I think Inform may.
Given the small demonstration someone was nice enough to post here, I
think I may switch my efforts to Inform. It doesn't appear (in the
light of new day, at least) to be that much more complex and the
playing environment seems to be quite richer as noted.

I downloaded the Suds player but haven't looked at it. I've decided
that while Quest may work well for some, I can't honestly see it
handling the level of complexity I'd like to eventually attain. And I
don't particularly like the interface. I much prefer the "feel" of the
Inform and older Infocom games. Maybe it's just what I know, but it
feels like a text adventure "should."

I appreciate everyone's comments. This is no doubt the last you'll hear
from me on the subject. I still get misty-eyed when I remember my many
fond hours traipsing through the Great Underground Empire or even GUE
Tech as a lad, so having the tools to write text adventures that have
that same Infocom-like "feel" is something akin to a dream come true
for me. :)

Brian


* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


Liz & Andy

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Nov 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/7/99
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Mike Snyder <wy...@prowler-pro.com> wrote in message
news:xGfU3.9410$AC1.1...@typhoon2.kc.rr.com...
>
> I haven't had a chance to check it out myself yet, but SUDS
> (www.sudsystem.freeserve.co.uk) is being billed as a system that doesn't
> require any programming.
>
>

Generous, but not QUITE the right billing! SUDS is a system that doesn't
require any programming EXPERIENCE - important last word! Yes, at the end
of the day it does require programming - but the idea is that it's a simple
approach which non-hard-core coders can easily pick up. That's the plan,
anyway!

Andy Elliot

Alex Warren

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Nov 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/7/99
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On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:52:43 -0800, Brian Bethel pondered:

> I've decided
> that while Quest may work well for some, I can't honestly see it
> handling the level of complexity I'd like to eventually attain. And I
> don't particularly like the interface.

Yes, Quest 2.0's interface is really rather nasty... the soon-to-be-released
Quest 2.1 fixes that little aspect.

I'm not sure why you don't see Quest to be able to handle high levels of
complexity, though - perhaps you could clarify?

--
Alex Warren, Axe Software · al...@axesoftware.co.uk · ICQ: 4043750
http://www.axesoftware.co.uk - including Quest, the IF system for Win95

sg

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Nov 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/8/99
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Brian Bethel <brianbet...@camalott.com.invalid> wrote:

>I've spent a little time playing with ALAN and I'm actually starting to
>like it somewhat.

> [ ... ] and trying to divine how one would, for example, place an object


>in a box. I'm sure it's incredibly simple, but I haven't gotten there
>yet. ;) hehe

"locate object in box."

would work fine (as long as "box" was a "container" object - which is
easy to specify too.)



>
>One thing I've noticed is that -- like this thread indicates -- as cool
>as Alan is, Inform seems even richer when it comes to its built-in
>environment. With certain exceptions, it seems that you have to "build
>in" support for commands other than basic directions and a few others.
>Alan doesn't even appear to support standard direction abbreviations
>(i.e. n, s, e, w, etc.) right out of the box, while I think Inform may.

As with Inform (and all the commonly-used systems) Alan has a
'library' of standard commands (including direction abbreviations)
which you should use so you don't have to write all the basics
yourself.

You can download the Alan 'standard' library from the Alan website
http://www.welcome.to/alan-if (The version in the IF Archive is older
so get the website one.)

I've been thinking lately that I should re-write my Alan tutorial so
that it encourages use of the library. (I wrote the tutorial before
the standard library existed so code libraries only get a passing
mention in it.) It would be a shame if new users didn't use the
library as I think it is one of the best new features of the Alan
system that has appeared in the last couple of years.

[ ... ]


>
>I appreciate everyone's comments. This is no doubt the last you'll hear
>from me on the subject.

Why's that? The rest of us talk about the same subjects over and over
again so you shouldn't hesitate to join the club! :-)

[ ... ]

(Post also emailed as my ISP's propagation of usenet posts seems to be
rather patchy.)

--
SteveG.
(Remove the 'wrongbit.' from my
address if replying via email.)

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