ask rec.arts.int-fiction about NPC conversation

[James Cole]

How ya didalin'

NPC conversation can have a profound effect on the experience of playing a
game. Done well it can add an extra dimension to a game and it's
characters. Done poorly it can make characters seem like cardboard and
also destroy suspension of disbelief. At the moment the 'ask <x> about
<y>' form of NPC conversation seems by far the most prevalant in Infocom
style IF.

I prefer Monkey Island style NCP conversations (A while back I uploaded a
utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!). Without saying why I think
this form is better than the 'ask <x> about <y>' form, I'd be interested in
the what you think about each of the two forms. What do you think is
better/worse about either of them?

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Adam Cadre]

James Cole wrote:
> NPC conversation can have a profound effect on the experience of
> playing a game. Done well it can add an extra dimension to a game

> and its characters. Done poorly it can make characters seem like

> cardboard and also destroy suspension of disbelief. At the moment
> the 'ask <x> about <y>' form of NPC conversation seems by far the
> most prevalant in Infocom style IF.
>

> I prefer Monkey Island style NPC conversations (A while back I

> uploaded a utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!). Without
> saying why I think this form is better than the 'ask <x> about <y>'
> form, I'd be interested in the what you think about each of the two
> forms. What do you think is better/worse about either of them?

One thing that's better/worse about the menu-based conversation
system is that in explicitly representing the words of the PC and
restricting the PC's choices to three or four phrasings, one is
casting the PC into a specific characterization, or forcing the
player to select from at most a handful of characterizations. Of
course, if you're writing a game in which the PC is a specific
character rather than a bring-your-own-personality one, this is
actually a benefit rather than a disadvantage. Which is why the
game I'm currently working on will feature a menu-based conversation
system.

-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
obscure Captain America villain
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc

[Linards Ticmanis]

James Cole wrote:
>
> How ya didalin'

>
> NPC conversation can have a profound effect on the experience of
>playing a

> game. Done well it can add an extra dimension to a game and it's

> characters. Done poorly it can make characters seem like cardboard
>and
> also destroy suspension of disbelief. At the moment the 'ask <x>
>about
> <y>' form of NPC conversation seems by far the most prevalant in
>Infocom
> style IF.
>

> I prefer Monkey Island style NCP conversations (A while back I

>uploaded a
> utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!). Without saying why I
>think
> this form is better than the 'ask <x> about <y>' form, I'd be
>interested in
> the what you think about each of the two forms. What do you think is
> better/worse about either of them?

Well I have to say I don't like the "menu" style for about the same
reaosns I don't like DOS Shells (like e.g. Windows..). Some reasons:

1.) Typing is quicker once you're used to it, so it distracts less. The
"that's _me_ in the story," as opposed to "that's some puppet I control"
is more there.
2.) You can say exactly what you want in one step, don't have to go
through menus, sub-menus etc.
3.) If you've ever played "Ultima 7" you'll have noted that there's a
problem in that sometimes you want to ask somebody about something you
were't explicitly told to ask about, or maybe that finding out what he
could know about is part of the fun. Another Ultima example, while it's
not IF as such, it certainly is one of the strongest series in NPC
conversation, at least in quantity: In U4 (where NPC conversation was
keyword-based) asking just about everybody about rune, stone and mantra
even though he hadn't mentioned it could save you a lot of time and
trouble, while in similar situations in U7 (menu-based) you had to
follow the whole "line of people with knowledge" to get your final info.
4.) You don't get the feeling "That's all I can say to him? Duh!" which
won't hit you as hard with text input (at least until you txd the
game..)
5.) It fits in better with the text interface. Of course, if you want to
write the second part of "Journey," you'd prefer the other form.
6.) Speaking of "Journey," what does make that game worse than other IF?
It's limited freedom and lack of creativity on the _player_ side. Real
IF is a sort of communication between a creative writer and an also
creative reader/player imho.

Of course, the "ask x about y" just by itself can also be a nuisance (it
is in one place in "Tapestry", an otherwise doubleplusgood game) if it's
not fleshed out with "give x to y", "show x to y", "x, tell me about y",
"x, kiss me" etc. I'll admit that realistic NPC conversation is probably
the weakest point of current IF (and it's about the hardest problem on a
technical level, since it's basically natural language parsing which
would have to be done on a far more complex level than what's needed for
interpreting "normal" commands.)

Taking all into account, if you want many, not-so-deeply implemented
characters, I'd use either a menu system or a keyword system (a la
Ultima 4-6). If you want few (one to maybe three) very fleshed-out
characters (which will probably be guilty of at least doubling your game
code if done realllly wellll) I'd read the parsing chapters in the
Manual of your design system very carefully and then start coding.

(As a side issue, isn't it amazing that deafness seems to be a
wide-spread plague among existing NPCS? E.g. The Old Sailor in BZ, The
Bubble Boy in Trinity, the gravedigger in Wishbringer, etc.)

Appendix: The keyword system of NPC communication, as invented by Lord
British aka Richard Garriot, for those who don't know it.

All characters respond to some standard keywords, "name" means what's
your name, "job" means what are you doing, etc. You can ask about other
one-word topics, gained from what he/she said before, mostly using "job"
as starting point, but most characters will know about one or two more
things only.

Example:

You see a thief with a long stiletto.
>TALK TO THIEF
"Hello to you. Finally somebody who doesn't assume I'm a stong, silent
type without even trying."
>>JOB
"Well, robbing adventurers blind, cleaning up and sometimes even waxing
mazes, carrying bags, and just being a general nuisance. Sometimes I
wield my stiletto as well, and sometimes I even open some tough locks
for others on my social day."
>>MAZES
"Yeah, people tend to use them as garbage disposals, so I clean them up.
Necessary work is often met with disrespect, I assume, but who'd really
like to wade through heaps of rotting small leaflets? Nobody."
>>STILETTO
"Isn't it shiny? I've found out a mixture of grue's spit and dam water
will remove all the bloodstains in seconds. Want me to show you?"
>>YES
Well, as it's currently shiny (didn't you listen?), he had to produce
some stains first.

*** You have died ***

--

Linards Ticmanis

The Master said, "The business of laying on the colors follows the
preparation of the plain ground."

[Erik Max Francis]

James Cole wrote:

> I prefer Monkey Island style NCP conversations (A while back I uploaded
> a
> utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!).

By this and the reply I would suppose you're referring to menu-style
conversation choices.

> Without saying why I think
> this form is better than the 'ask <x> about <y>' form, I'd be interested
> in
> the what you think about each of the two forms. What do you think is
> better/worse about either of them?

There was a discussion on this long, long ago, back when I used to
contribute to this newsgroup. In my opinion, the ASK X ABOUT Y and SHOW X
TO Y commands are more open-ended than the menu-drive conversations. With
menu-driven conversations, the questions you're supposed to ask are
obvious and as such it leads you. Not only are you restricted from
choices, but it's also clear when you're supposed to say something,
because it will appear in the menu where it wasn't before:

> TALK TO MOM
"Hello, dear," she says sweetly. "What is it?"

Say:
1. "Where is Dad?"
2. "where is Johnny?"

:1
"Where is Dad?" you ask.

"Oh, he's in the den, honey. Go bother him."
:end

> W
Living Room
There are some curtains here.

> SET CURTAINS ON FIRE
How pretty. Man, are you gonna get your butt whooped.

> E
Kitchen
Mom is here.

> TALK TO MOM
"Can't you see I'm trying to make dinner?" she asks.

Say:
1. "Where is Dad?"
2. "where is Johnny?"
3. "Johnny set a fire in the living room!"

:3
"Johnny set a fire in the living room!" you should excitedly.

"Oh, well that little boy is going to get his . . ."

In this case, it's not only obvious what your choices are, but it's
obvious what you're supposed to (like setting fire to a house should be
part of an IF game).

The alternative seems much cleaner to me -- where a certain well-defined
set of conversation verbs are used to communicate with the other
characters in well-defined ways. Basically the words are more like
keywords, with TELL MOM ABOUT FIRE being more concise then entering some
two-way dialog:

> TELL MOM ABOUT FIRE
"What the! Who did it? Who did it?" she yipes, while running around
looking for towels, as if that will help.

> SAY [or ANSWER] JOHNNY
"Oh, that little boy is going to get it! . . ."

There can be a host of these verbs, such as ASK PRINCIPAL ABOUT PADDLE,
SHOW GUN TO TROLL, SAY HALLELUJAH, ANSWER NO, etc.

These seem to make it much more a game than just picking the right
multiple choice answer -- or, in the case where a new answer pops up,
pickign the only obvious answer.

--
Erik Max Francis, &tSftDotIotE / email / m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems / web / http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, California, United States / icbm / 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
\
"The future / is right there."
/ Bill Moyers

[Daniel Cardenas]

Wow, a thread about NPC conversation! :-) We already have such an
interesting conversation in this matter in the spanish newsgroup
es.rec.juegos.comp.aventuras, but there is no much interest and lately I
was left all by myself.

Sincerely, I don't like the menu-driven style. Like Steven points this
have to ve done very carefully. And I think this is a widespread
problem, I know that Shannara from Legend suffers from it, too.

Most of the Spanish games are not based in the '[ask|tell] him about
topic'. They use the 'tell "free_text:_put_here_what_you_want"'. It is
supposed that the programmer use keywords to implement possible
responses:

_>tell "hello, what a beutiful day"
The NPC tells you "Hi if fans!"

Here the keyword was HELLO, but it's not necessary we have only one. We
can detect one (HELLO) and use some others (MIKE/GLORIA) to help getting
the meaning of the sentence:

_>tell "hello Mike"
The NPC tells you "Hi Daniel"

_>tell "hello Gloria" (He is actually Mike)
The NPC says "Gloria? My name's Mike!"

Ok, this was a stupid example, here you have another...

Tom ask you "Have you seen Gloria?"

1. >say "yes"
Tom asks you "where have you seen her?"

>reply "in the living room, he is expecting you."
Tom says "Nice. Good bye" and goes down.

2. >say "yes, he is in the living room"
Tom says "Thanks" and goes down.

3. >say "I'm sorry. No."
Tom says "Ok. I will continue looking for her."

I think using more than one keyword (like in the ask/tell formula), can
give more adequate responses, but you have to use it carefully:

_> tell "hello, have you seen Gloria"
The NPC says "Gloria? My name's Mike!"

Apart from being more difficult to implement, it can help giving a
feeling of freedom.

-- Daniel Cardenas
Spanish Quest: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2687

[James Cole]

Linards Ticmanis <Linards....@post.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

>James Cole wrote:
>>
[..]

>
>Well I have to say I don't like the "menu" style for about the same
>reaosns I don't like DOS Shells (like e.g. Windows..). Some reasons:
>
>1.) Typing is quicker once you're used to it, so it distracts less. The
>"that's _me_ in the story," as opposed to "that's some puppet I control"
>is more there.
>2.) You can say exactly what you want in one step, don't have to go
>through menus, sub-menus etc.

I think the description "menu style" slightly misleads how the technique I
was talking about works. The way I was thinking of it -- the way Monkey
Island implements it -- it seems more like a list than a typical menu.
There also aren't any "sub-menus". You can either: navigate through the
choices with the keyboard, selecting your choice with the enter key; click
on a choice; or type the number of the choices' position in the list (of
choices). In the TADS utility I made this last method is the only way
available to select your choice. So it's barely more than the one step of
the ask <x> about <y> form -- you just type something like 'talk to Elaine'
and then, as the conversation ensues, just press the numbers of the
corresponding to the things you want to say.

[...]

>
>Of course, the "ask x about y" just by itself can also be a nuisance (it
>is in one place in "Tapestry", an otherwise doubleplusgood game) if it's
>not fleshed out with "give x to y", "show x to y", "x, tell me about y",
>"x, kiss me" etc. I'll admit that realistic NPC conversation is probably
>the weakest point of current IF (and it's about the hardest problem on a
>technical level, since it's basically natural language parsing which
>would have to be done on a far more complex level than what's needed for
>interpreting "normal" commands.)

I wonder though, is stuff like natural language parsing really that good an
idea? If the game could understand natural language (or even something
close to it) then you'd have an emense task working out what the NPC is
going to say in response. In other terms, if you can converse with an NPC
just as you would with a real person you'd expect them to also talk to you
just like a real person would.

[...]

>All characters respond to some standard keywords, "name" means what's
>your name, "job" means what are you doing, etc. You can ask about other
>one-word topics, gained from what he/she said before, mostly using "job"
>as starting point, but most characters will know about one or two more
>things only.
>
>Example:
>

[example snipped]

Has this been done in an IF game?

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

bl...@ibm.net (Steven Howard) wrote:

>In <3379b653...@news.netspace.net.au>, jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:
[...]
>
>I haven't played Monkey Island, but I'll assume it's menu-based.
>
I should've explained how the "Monkey Island style" NPC conversation works,
so I'll post a description elsewhere in this thread.

[advantages and disadvantages cut]

>
>What's your utility called? What language is it for?
>
It's called Converse, and it's for TADS. It's on GMD at:

ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads/library/contributions/converse.zip

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Here's a description of how the Monkey Island style of NPC conversation
works:

To start a conversation with a NPC you need to 'talk to <character>'.
Typically, you'll initially be given a choice of things to say to the
character. These might be something like:

1) Hi there, I'm new in these parts.
2) Hi, could you tell me where a hotel or something is?
3) Hey, is there anywhere round here where I can get a drink?
4) Uhhhh... nothing. See ya.

(the number of choices you are given might range from 1 to 6).

After choosing what to say, the NPC will reply.
In response to what the NPC has said you will be given a new set of things
to say. The conversation continues in this fashion till either party ends
it. This is done by choosing an appropriate ending comment, like "Ok,
well, I've got to get going now". Of course, the NPC may also end the
conversation.

As can be seen, it's more like a natural conversation between people.

The set of permutations that the conversation can have (depending on what
you choose to say) form a directed graph.

-------------

As an aside, here's why I've referred to the technique as "Monkey Island
style" NPC conversation.

This style of NPC conversation seems to be associated with Monkey Island.
Even though The Secret of Monkey Island wasn't the first game to implement
this, none had done it so well. It really was something special; I still
haven't seen it implemented better.

Also, I can't think off a good term to describe the technique. Others have
used some, but none of which I think really suit it.
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Erik Max Francis]

James Cole wrote:

> I think the description "menu style" slightly misleads how the technique
> I
> was talking about works. The way I was thinking of it -- the way Monkey
> Island implements it -- it seems more like a list than a typical menu.
> There also aren't any "sub-menus". You can either: navigate through the
> choices with the keyboard, selecting your choice with the enter key; click
> on a choice; or type the number of the choices' position in the list (of
> choices).

That's what many people call menus.

I don't see how having multiple alternate methods of selecting choices
from a fixed list (keyboard, mouse, what have you) fundamentally adds to
it. I mean, selecting your choice is selecting your choice, right?

> >All characters respond to some standard keywords, "name" means what's
> >your name, "job" means what are you doing, etc. You can ask about other
> >one-word topics, gained from what he/she said before, mostly using
> >"job"
> >as starting point, but most characters will know about one or two more
> >things only.
> >
> >Example:
> >
> [example snipped]
>
> Has this been done in an IF game?

What he's talking about is straight out of Ultima IV (which is where I was
first introduced to the concept).

There are a few ways to do what I see to be essentially the same effect:
Either have an alternate prompt where you enter keywords, or no alternate
prompt where the conversation continues on with {ASK|TELL} X ABOUT Y.
That is, either:

> TALK TO TROLL
"Ug. What you want?"

: JOB
"Um. Me watch bridge. Ug."

: NAME
"Me forget."

: BYE
"Ug."

or:

> ASK TROLL ABOUT JOB
"Um. Me watch bridge. Ug."

> ASK TROLL ABOUT NAME
"Me forget."

One could even define keywords for saying hello and goodbye in a
conversation using the latter method.

[Nulldogma]

James Cole wrote, re: "Monkey-Island-style" conversation:

> As can be seen, it's more like a natural conversation
> between people.

Actually, it feels to me much more stilted, since the game is not only
putting words in my mouth, it's restricting what I can or can't say. I'm
used to restrictions on syntax, as "TELL/ASK X ABOUT Y" is when you get
down to it; restrictions on content I'm not so crazy about.

Besides, with a menu-based system, I never could have experienced my
favorite unintentional piece of I-F humor, from I-0:

> ASK JOSH ABOUT SEX
"I like vanilla."

Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause ne...@echonyc.com
http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------

[Michael Sellers]

James Cole wrote:
> >All characters respond to some standard keywords, "name" means what's
> >your name, "job" means what are you doing, etc. You can ask about other
> >one-word topics, gained from what he/she said before, mostly using "job"
> >as starting point, but most characters will know about one or two more
> >things only.
>

> Has this been done in an IF game?

I think this has been done in a few MUDs, where NPCs are given small
knowledge bases; each knowledge base contains appropriate key words,
parsing structures, and responses. For example, a baker NPC might know
about himself, baking, the weather, and generalities about his town --
and maybe about an odd myth or two, for spice. Making the
knowledge/response bases modular makes it easier to construct new NPCs
that know what they should know, and change what such characters appear
to know over time.

Does anyone here have any experience using a TADS or Inform-like system
as the parser for a MUD or similar game? Most MUDs have abysmal
parsers, but this seems like an area the IF crowd has covered well.
Thoughts?

--
Mike Sellers Internet Game Designer msel...@ricochet.net

"If you're not confused, you don't know what's going on."
-- could have been said about the online entertainment industry

[Carl Muckenhoupt]

I've seen one game that does this. It was called "Interactive Fiction",
it was published by Adventure International (Scott Adams' company), it
consisted of four small scenarios, and it had no other form of
interactivity. It didn't work very well, IMHO, and I prefer the Infocom
converstaion mechanism. Why? For the same reason that I don't like
games to pretend to understand commands that they don't. "Tell x about
y" - what one might call the single keyword system - has clear and
obvious limitations. The freeform multiple-keyword system has
limitations as well, but it pretends not to. The increased feeling of
freedom is an illusion, and the players will realize this and be
disappointed.

This is not to say that the Infocom mechanism is perfect. But I think
that in any conversation mechanism, the expected input should match the
ability of the program to understand it.

--
Carl Muckenhoupt ca...@earthweb.com
EarthWeb http://www.earthweb.com/

[James Cole]

Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:

>James Cole wrote:
>
>> I think the description "menu style" slightly misleads how the technique
>> I
>> was talking about works. The way I was thinking of it -- the way Monkey
>> Island implements it -- it seems more like a list than a typical menu.
>> There also aren't any "sub-menus". You can either: navigate through the
>> choices with the keyboard, selecting your choice with the enter key; click
>> on a choice; or type the number of the choices' position in the list (of
>> choices).
>
>That's what many people call menus.
>
>I don't see how having multiple alternate methods of selecting choices
>from a fixed list (keyboard, mouse, what have you) fundamentally adds to
>it. I mean, selecting your choice is selecting your choice, right?
>

OK, I gave the wrong reasons. See the reply to another persons post for a
better explanation.

[...]

>>
>> Has this been done in an IF game?
>

>What he's talking about is straight out of Ultima IV (which is where I was
>first introduced to the concept).
>

I know, but Ultima IV is not really IF.

(this is way is why menu based conversation is not a good term for it.
Monkey Island style conversation is really quite different to Ultima IV's)

[...]
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Daniel Cardenas <card...@i3d.es> wrote:

>Wow, a thread about NPC conversation! :-) We already have such an
>interesting conversation in this matter in the spanish newsgroup
>es.rec.juegos.comp.aventuras, but there is no much interest and lately I
>was left all by myself.

What sort of things was the discussion about?

[...]

>Most of the Spanish games are not based in the '[ask|tell] him about
>topic'. They use the 'tell "free_text:_put_here_what_you_want"'. It is
>supposed that the programmer use keywords to implement possible
>responses:

Interesting. I wasn't aware of this.

[examples cut]

>I think using more than one keyword (like in the ask/tell formula), can
>give more adequate responses, but you have to use it carefully:
>
>_> tell "hello, have you seen Gloria"
> The NPC says "Gloria? My name's Mike!"

What's the extent of this problem? Is it easily avoidable if you
understand how the system works? and how badly does it catch up people
who've never used it before?

It'd be quite interested to have a go at one of these games. Are there any
games, in english, that you could point me to?

thanks,
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:

>James Cole wrote:
>
>> I prefer Monkey Island style NCP conversations (A while back I uploaded
>> a utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!).
>
>By this and the reply I would suppose you're referring to menu-style
>conversation choices.

Yes, though I'm not real keen on that term. I guess it's because that term
is quite general, and I think more associated to other games, like Ultima,
and the other ones that people have mentioned. Although Monkey Island and
all these games have NPC conversation using a menu systems, they can be
large differences.

For example, I suspect people tend to associate "menu-syle" more with a set
of keyword questions rather than a set of things to say. That is:
1) name
2) occupation
3) etc., etc.

>
[...]

>
>There was a discussion on this long, long ago, back when I used to
>contribute to this newsgroup.

Yep. I've read it in the archives.

> In my opinion, the ASK X ABOUT Y and SHOW X
>TO Y commands are more open-ended than the menu-drive conversations.

Ok.

> With
>menu-driven conversations, the questions you're supposed to ask are
>obvious and as such it leads you.

> Not only are you restricted from
>choices, but it's also clear when you're supposed to say something,

>because it will appear in the menu where it wasn't before:
>
[example snipped cause server wouldn't let me post it with so much quoted
text]

>In this case, it's not only obvious what your choices are, but it's
>obvious what you're supposed to (like setting fire to a house should be
>part of an IF game).

To tell you the truth, I don't really see that as much of a problem. It is
quite easy to entirely avoid situations like the above. Also, if you're
playing a character (rather than "yourself") the things that you are can
say are like what's in your character's mind.

On the flip side, it's possible to use the conversation as a puzzle.
Trying to get someone to say something; trying to knock someones price
down; or even swordfighting someone!

It's easy to think that problems like the one you mentioned would occur
when you look purely at the concept, or a poor implementation. But, as
LucasArts demonstrate, they don't have to exist if the right
techniques/methods are used. Like most things, it depends on the quality of
implementation.

>The alternative seems much cleaner to me -- where a certain well-defined
>set of conversation verbs are used to communicate with the other
>characters in well-defined ways. Basically the words are more like
>keywords, with TELL MOM ABOUT FIRE being more concise then entering some
>two-way dialog:

[examples snipped]

>These seem to make it much more a game than just picking the right
>multiple choice answer -- or, in the case where a new answer pops up,
>pickign the only obvious answer.

As I said before, if done well it really isn't like picking the right
multiple choice answer or the only obvious one. I think it's one of those
things you have to experience to appreciate.

Also, unlike the ask/tell style it has interaction. Because of this it can
be fun to talk to people and to "explore" the conversation.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:

>James Cole wrote, re: "Monkey-Island-style" conversation:
>
>> As can be seen, it's more like a natural conversation
>> between people.
>
>Actually, it feels to me much more stilted, since the game is not only
>putting words in my mouth, it's restricting what I can or can't say. I'm
>used to restrictions on syntax, as "TELL/ASK X ABOUT Y" is when you get
>down to it; restrictions on content I'm not so crazy about.

There were two reasons why I said it's more like a natural conversation.

Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply to
them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and say
things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by asking
or telling them about objects?

You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a
conversation between two real people.

As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre
said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather than
yourself.

Anyway, IF is full of stuff which "puts words into your mouth".

Restrictions on content? What about the restrictions on content with the
ask/tell style? -- they are far worse.

>Besides, with a menu-based system, I never could have experienced my
>favorite unintentional piece of I-F humor, from I-0:
>
>> ASK JOSH ABOUT SEX
>"I like vanilla."
>

Ok. But if you've ever played Monkey Island then you'd know the techinque
opens up many more possiblities for humor.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Has anyone considered the fact that Monkey Island style NPC conversation
can INCLUDE the "ask/tell <x> about <y>" system? "The best of both
worlds". Not only can you talk to people, but you can also ask or tell
them specific things about objects.

I've already had this coded up in my utility, Converse, for a couple of
months, and it'll be in the second release. (Out of interest...if anyone
has read the documentation for it, it's one of the extra feature's I said
would be added in future releases - the one that had already been coded)

Imagine the following situation:

You're in a used-car yard looking at some of the cars. The greasy dealer
has been following you around, making comments, pointing out things. There
are a few cars in your price-range. The yellow Volkswagon seems a bit
interesting, so you decide to ask the dealer about it.

With the "ask <x> about <y>" form, all you could do is "ask salesman about
Volkswagon".

With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagon" and
then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.

1) What can you tell me about the car?
2) Can I take it for a test drive?
3) What's red stain in the glove box?

etc.,

The answer to each of these could in turn give you further questions or
things to say.

Of course, for most objects you might only have the general "what can you
tell me about <x>" choice available (which, obviously, is equivalent to the
ask/tell style).

Also, with my new version of Converse you can add a default response for
objects. So you can give a default answer when a player asks/tells an NPC
about an object you haven't coded a "conversation" for.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Nulldogma]

James Cole wrote:

> Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply
to
> them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
> conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
> about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and
say
> things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by
asking
> or telling them about objects?

The first is easy: ASK JOE ABOUT WORK. Or, if you feel like doing a little
extra coding, JOE, HOW IS WORK, or even JOE, HOW HAS WORK BEEN can be made
to get the same response. Expanding the different acceptable syntaxes
isn't really that hard, though you do start to run into the problem where
the less you restrict the player, the more restrictive the remaining
restrictions seem. ("Hey, how come I can ask Joe HOW HAS WORK BEEN but not
HOW ARE YOU LIKING YOUR NEW JOB?")

The second isn't that hard, either: AGREE WITH JOE, or JOE, I AGREE, or
just YES. Again, it takes some coding, but *any* serious NPC work takes a
buttload of coding.

I guess I just disagree about which feels less stilted. If I'm in a room
with someone and told I have a choice between speaking a simplified
version of English, or communicating entirely through a set of pre-printed
cards, I'll use the simplified English anyday.

> You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a
> conversation between two real people.
>
> As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre
> said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather
than
> yourself.

More suited, sure. But I'm still not convinced that it can be made to work
with feeling overly manipulative (to me, anyway). Of course, I didn't
really believe in puzzle-free I-F at one point, and Adam proved me wrong
about that, so I should really withhold judgment until I see what he and
others come up with.

>
> Anyway, IF is full of stuff which "puts words into your mouth".

Yup, and I tend to hate it. (See my mini-rant against Tapestry last fall.)

> Restrictions on content? What about the restrictions on content with
the
> ask/tell style? -- they are far worse.

Why? Ask/tell is only limited to the game's vocabulary. Menus are limited
to what's on the menu. There's no way any menuing system is going to
provide as many content options as ask/tell -- not without becoming
incredibly unweildy.

[James Cole]

null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:

>James Cole wrote:
>
>> Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply
>> to them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
>> conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
>> about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and
>> say things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by
>> asking or telling them about objects?
>
>The first is easy: ASK JOE ABOUT WORK. Or, if you feel like doing a little
>extra coding, JOE, HOW IS WORK, or even JOE, HOW HAS WORK BEEN can be made
>to get the same response.

Ah, this is a good example to explain how the bit about "putting words into
your mouth" fits in. Say Joe happens to be an old friend of yours who you
haven't seen in years. Playing the game as "yourself", you might have no
reason to ask Joe about his job -- unless it is obvious to do so (e.g.
something in the game text suggests doing this). But, playing a character
(who may have worked with Joe at the Cannery a while back) it would be a
natural thing for him/her to do.

With the ask/tell style the basis of communication are things which can
superficially be observed within the gameworld. This is not the way people
communicate.

This is another facet of why the Monkey Island style adds up to a more
"real" conversation.

> Expanding the different acceptable syntaxes
>isn't really that hard, though you do start to run into the problem where
>the less you restrict the player, the more restrictive the remaining
>restrictions seem. ("Hey, how come I can ask Joe HOW HAS WORK BEEN but not
>HOW ARE YOU LIKING YOUR NEW JOB?")

gee, really. :-)

There's more I want to say about this when I get the chance. [Mental note,
don't post about provactive subject when having millions of other things to
do.]

>The second isn't that hard, either: AGREE WITH JOE, or JOE, I AGREE, or
>just YES.

Ok, how about these examples:
- He really needs to think about what he says.
- Ok, where do you want to meet?
- Hi, can you tell me where I can have some fun around here?
- Who's in charge here?
- Hey, that's a nice hat.
- But I told you that the water had to go in _after_ the flour!

Basically, it can be any possible thing which someone could say to you, or
you to someone else.

> Again, it takes some coding, but *any* serious NPC work takes a
>buttload of coding.
>
>I guess I just disagree about which feels less stilted. If I'm in a room
>with someone and told I have a choice between speaking a simplified
>version of English, or communicating entirely through a set of pre-printed
>cards, I'll use the simplified English anyday.

Yes, but were not talking about real life here. I'd do the same in
that situation too.

>
>> You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a
>> conversation between two real people.
>>
>> As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre
>> said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather
>> than yourself.
>
>More suited, sure. But I'm still not convinced that it can be made to work
>with feeling overly manipulative (to me, anyway). Of course, I didn't
>really believe in puzzle-free I-F at one point, and Adam proved me wrong
>about that, so I should really withhold judgment until I see what he and
>others come up with.
>

Am I correct in assuming you haven't ever played something like Monkey
Island? As I said in another reply, I really think this style of
conversation needs to be "experienced" to be fully appreciated.

If it can run on your system, you might want to have a look at one of the
issues of PC Gamer magazine. I heard something about their being a
"locked" version of it on one of their cover CD's (The "Monkey Island 3"
issue). You have to pay something like $10 to get a code or something to
"unlock" it.

>>
>> Anyway, IF is full of stuff which "puts words into your mouth".
>
>Yup, and I tend to hate it. (See my mini-rant against Tapestry last fall.)

I intend to elaborate on this sometime in the future.

...one thing I would like to add is that I think this problem occurs with
_all_ Infocom style IF (though that doesn't mean it doesn't occur in other
styles). It's inherent to the way their done.

>> Restrictions on content? What about the restrictions on content with
>> the ask/tell style? -- they are far worse.
>
>Why? Ask/tell is only limited to the game's vocabulary. Menus are limited
>to what's on the menu. There's no way any menuing system is going to
>provide as many content options as ask/tell -- not without becoming
>incredibly unweildy.
>

I don't have time to answer this now. I'll reply to it when I get a
chance.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Erik Max Francis]

James Cole wrote:

> With the "ask <x> about <y>" form, all you could do is "ask salesman
> about
> Volkswagon".
>
> With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagon"
> and
> then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.
>
> 1) What can you tell me about the car?
> 2) Can I take it for a test drive?
> 3) What's red stain in the glove box?
>
> etc.,
>
> The answer to each of these could in turn give you further questions or
> things to say.

This seems to me to be more of a situation where the player is merely
forced to find which option the author wanted him to pick.

Would there really be a good puzzle where subtlety is important in this
way?

[Adam Cadre]

Jame Cole wrote:
> With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagen"

> and then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.
>
> 1) What can you tell me about the car?
> 2) Can I take it for a test drive?
> 3) What's red stain in the glove box?

Erik Max Francis replied:

> This seems to me to be more of a situation where the player is merely
> forced to find which option the author wanted him to pick.
>
> Would there really be a good puzzle where subtlety is important in
> this way?

See, there's the problem. You're still thinking in terms of puzzles.
It's true that a menu-based conversation interface can turn a puzzle
into a multiple-choice question complete with everything but a Scantron
and a #2 pencil -- but if the NPC interaction in the game in question
is based not on picking the right answer to get the NPC to open the
door or drink the poison, but rather based around more open-ended
consequences (the NPC you're talking to likes you a little less, while
someone else in the room overhears and likes you more, which may be
a benefit later on, or may be a disadvantage, depending on the plot
threads you follow in the meantime), then the problem vanishes in a
puff of green smoke.

[Russell Glasser]

James Cole wrote:
>
> null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
>

> >James Cole wrote, re: "Monkey-Island-style" conversation:
> >

> >> As can be seen, it's more like a natural conversation

> >> between people.
> >
> >Actually, it feels to me much more stilted, since the game is not only
> >putting words in my mouth, it's restricting what I can or can't say. I'm
> >used to restrictions on syntax, as "TELL/ASK X ABOUT Y" is when you get
> >down to it; restrictions on content I'm not so crazy about.
>
> There were two reasons why I said it's more like a natural conversation.
>

> Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply to
> them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
> conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
> about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and say
> things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by asking
> or telling them about objects?
>

> You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a
> conversation between two real people.
>
> As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre
> said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather than
> yourself.
>

Well, James, I'm on your side on this one. I like well-written menu
conversations much more than I've ever enjoyed the old ask/tell paradigm of
Infocom. I think being forced to choose one word topics is at least as
restrictive as having words put in your mouth, and it allows much less
character development at that.
I much prefer adventures in which you have to play the part of a
well-defined character who is not supposed to be "you" (i.e., Plundered
Hearts or AMFV instead of Zork or Enchanter) and I find that reading my
character's intended responses puts me in a better frame of mind to
understand what "I" am thinking.
Another gripe I've always had about the ask/tell conversations is
that it can be very annoying when you know there's a topic that you ought to
hit, but you can't guess what it is. I was happy to see old Legend games
(i.e. TimeQuest) offer me a list of keywords rather than making me grope
around blindly for them. But I was happier still with Eric the Unready, when
I could hold a conversation AND make wisecracks through Eric.
When done well, a menu conversation can give you a lot of
conversation options without making you feel obligated to choose all of them;
when done poorly, it's true that it can make you feel trapped and pushed
towards saying something that you don't want to.
A good example is the stark contrast between Star Control II
(brilliant game) and Star Con III (not-so-brilliant, special effects driven
game with less interesting dialogue). What worked in Star Con II was that
there were just so many variations of a conversation that you wouldn't be
able to try them all without replaying them many times; there were always
enough options to make you feel that you were really choosing what to say,
and there were many shades of gray for the outcome (one option might lead you
to alliance or make a permanent enemy, but another option would lead you to a
semi-hostile state that you could get out of by being more polite later). In
SC3 on the other hand, the choices were limited and most of the conversation
options led back to the same place. It didn't really matter what you chose
because the outcome was almost always the same.
I do remember finishing a conversation in SC2 and saying "Wow, it was
very clever of me to say that" -- even though I didn't choose my own words,
it felt like I had.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw

Russell can be heckled at
http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser

[James Cole]

Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:

>James Cole wrote:
>
>> With the "ask <x> about <y>" form, all you could do is "ask salesman
>> about Volkswagon".
>>

>> With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagon"

>> and then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.
>>
>> 1) What can you tell me about the car?
>> 2) Can I take it for a test drive?
>> 3) What's red stain in the glove box?
>>

>> etc.,
>>
>> The answer to each of these could in turn give you further questions or
>> things to say.
>

>This seems to me to be more of a situation where the player is merely
>forced to find which option the author wanted him to pick.
>
>Would there really be a good puzzle where subtlety is important in this
>way?

Your considering this in the wrong way. Basically, the idea of the extra
things to ask about particular object are just there to give you a richer
level of interaction.

Consider another example: from a distance you see a man surreptitiously
drop something. All you can distinguish about him is that he's wearing a
red sweater. You go over and pick the object up, noting that it's some
sort of engine part. There is a mechanic in the town and you decide to go
and ask him about the part.

If you were using the ask/tell style, what would asking the mechanic about
the object mean? Most likely, it'll mean asking him to identify the part
-- but I also want to ask him about the shady character! There is no way
you could do this with the ask/tell style. (and yes, you probably could
find some sort of awkward workaround for this particular situation, but not
for the general case.)

Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the questions:
1) What can you tell me about this object?
2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.
Do you know who he could be?

It is important to keep in mind, though, that this would not be the typical
situation. By this, I mean that for most objects you'd probably only have
the general "what can you tell me about..." question. Therefore, this
technique should be considerd as an extension of the Infocom ask/tell style
which can handle a wider and subtler range of situations.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

[...]
>
>Main point: Well, actually the aside sums it up. If you're interacting
>with story, which is presumably the point, you may *want* the NPC to like
>you a little less, or whatever. There may not be a single option that the
>author wants you to pick; but there will be options that the author wants
>you to pick *in order to go a particular direction*. (Unless all the
>options lead to the same results, which, again, is presumably not the
>point.)

...but isn't this supportive of what Adam was saying?

>Mmm, let me think of this another way: In any game (not necessarily a
>computer game) there is a balance between (A) the number of things you can
>do, (B) the number of interesting results, (C) the designer's effort in
>inventing results, and (D) the player not getting bored. A choose-your-
>own-adventure book, for example, drastically cuts down on (A), and further
>cuts down (B) by having plotlines merge up again wherever possible. The
>result is almost always dull.

>Colossal Cave managed (by some combination of genius and sheer damn luck)
>to invent a brilliant balance where (A) is huge, but (B) is vastly trimmed
>down, because 98% of the possible commands have boilerplate responses, and
>90% of the remaining 2% merge back into each other in a predictable way.

>("GET KEYS. GET LAMP" winds up the same as "GET LAMP. GET KEYS.")

what's the point of this example? It doesn't seem to fit in with what
you're saying.

> And yet
>somehow we focus on the 2% and are most interested in the 0.2%. And
>therefore the game works.

I disagree a bit with this. Why? The explanation is long, and I couldn't
be bothered explaining at the moment.

>It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
>expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
>plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
>commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.

I'm not.

> I think that's what the
>"ask X about Y" hack is for; it's a syntax where the author can deal with
>every conceivable value of X and Y, and even though 98% of the responses
>will still be boilerplate, they'll all be plausible boilerplate.

Rubbish. In _every_ Infocom style game I've ever played suspension of
disbelief was destroyed (to some extent) by not providing adequate (and in
most cases, obvious) responses. This really does put people off IF (even
when they understand the systems limitations). (In fact this adds to
another, and far greater, problem).

I'm sure Infocom IF fans out there will probably think I'm just an anomaly
with this sort of opinion. But that's not the case -- they're the
exception in the vast majority of people out there.

I intend to elaborate on this subject matter in the future.

>In a menu system -- as opposed to a keyword system -- you're backing up
>and giving the player three or four options at a time, instead of
>hundreds.

I see this as an advantage. Because there are a clearly defined number of
choices you can't get the situation of a default response destroying
suspension of disbelief.

Note that this doesn't mean that the Monkey Island technique is just a more
fool-proof "mass-market" solution.

I'm interested in knowing exactly why you think hundreds are better?

> This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model
>that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
>suggestion.

Actually, I doubt that. I suspect it's because most haven't actually used
the Monkey Island style (at least in a decent implementation). I get this
impression from the responses I've gotten, where people seem to be thinking
about the concept in the context of the functions/uses, etc., of the
ask/tell style.

>As to the two level-system that we started with -- "ask salesman about
>Volkswagen" followed by three options -- it seems unnecessarily
>complicated. Well, I should say, just plain complicated.

Why does it seem complicated? Have a look at my second example of this in
my reply to Eric.

> Any hybrid
>system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts; I'd be afraid
>that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and* forced and
>putting-options-in-my-mouth.

How come?

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Adam Cadre]

Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Any hybrid system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts;
> I'd be afraid that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and*
> forced and putting-options-in-my-mouth.
>

> But then I haven't tried it.

Right. I figure it's worth a shot. I mean, even if it turns out to
be a colossal failure, the only thing I stand to lose is several months
of my time. And chances are I wouldn't be doing anything important
with those anyway.

[Samuel DAF Barlow]

On 19 May 1997, Big Mad Drongo wrote:

> James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
> : Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the questions:

> : 1) What can you tell me about this object?
>

> SHOW OBJECT TO MECHANIC
OR ASK MECHANIC ABOUT OBJECT
>
> : 2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.

> : Do you know who he could be?
>

> ASK MECHANIC ABOUT MAN IN RED SWEATER
OR TELL MECHANIC ABOUT MAN IN RED SWEATER

GARAGE
You are in a garage. A greasy mechanic stands here, looking over a car.
>Mechanic, hello
"Hi. How can I help you, young man?"
>ask mechanic about object
He looks it over in his hands. "Hmmm. A variable-valve gasket. Where
d'ya get your hands on this?"
>tell mechanic about man in red sweater
~Oh...Bob! He's a shifty fella.~
>ask mechanic about bob
etc., etc.

I strongly disagree with the statements about the Monkey-Island style
conversations. I have never found these to work (and, yes, I have
"experienced" them). The humour that Mr. Cole refers to is the same type
of humour we see in sitcoms. It is very obvious in MI when we are about
to see a humourous response, just as in a sitcom when it is obvious a
joke is being set-up. In Ask/Tell I-F, the player can be suprised by
an answer. I find it strange that Adam Cadre supports the MI style as a
way of putting the player in character when his own game, I-0, is a
brilliant example of how to do this outside of MI menus; like when I
asked to "open boot" and was told that my character would call it a
trunk. The large number of humorous responses to my commands also help
tell the player who he/she is without hitting them over the head.

The Ask/Tell system does have the problem of sustaining a conversation;
many games rely on the player firing lots of ASK's at an NPC to simulate
a conversation. This failed miserably in Corruption in the meal with
David's wife, where her responses were one-liners and the number of
topics was small. However if the NPC's response contains several other
threads to ASK then the flow&feel of the conversation becomes much more
life-like:

PIRATE PUB
You are standing at the bar of a sleezy drinking establishment. Next to
you, perched on a stool, is Pirate Pete.
>Pete,Hi
~Hello, Are yee new in these here parts?~
>Pete,yes
Pete smiles. ~At what be yee doing?~
>tell pete about treasure
Pete's smile widens. ~I used to be a treasure hunter myself but gave up
after my wife died. Now I'm just a fisherman.~
>ask Pete about himself
~I'm just Pete.~
>ask Pete about wife
~She was killed in an awful pirating adventure. Got her head chopped
clean off.~
>ask Pete about adventure
~Oh just some treasure off of Barnacle cove. Never found it.~
>ask Pete about fishing
~I run a tourist service. I take newbies like yerself out fur fishing
trips,~ he pauses, ~would yee like to go on a fishin' trip?~
>> etc. etc.

With simple ASK, TELL and single nouns we have manged to have a
reasonable natural conversation.

The problem with menus is that they run against the rest of the game,
they are an artifice which destroys the suspension-of-willing-disbelief.
If the whole game were menu-driven it would be OK. Whereas the ASk,TELL
convention is part of the parser which we use in the other parts of the
game. I-F's main strength is the fact that its input, the parser is
textual as is the output. Menu's take this away; the player no-longer
types his actions, but is read them. Now we are back to fiction, minus
the interactivity.

One last thing, as regards MI, etc. from my "experience." Although
Cadre, et al, claim that MI menu's are interactive I have found that of
the, say, 4 options only 1 is neccessary to the game. As such the player
is allowed to click through the other options, always returning to the 4
initial choices until he picks the "right" one. So, the only thing he is
choosing is the order in which to say his funny lines.

Sorry if I have rambled or been incoherent, but this posting is an
attempt to put of much-needed exam revision.

>s
You leave the computer room and head to the library..
>get books
You take the mountain of Physics and Maths textbooks.
>read books
Zzzzzz.

Sam.
____________________________________
# \ # #### /... The One and Only ...\ #### # / #
# / # #### \... S A M U E L -x- B A R L O W .../ #### # \ #
# \ # ##### |.. ..| ##### # / #
# / # #### /.. sb6...@bris.ac.uk ..\ #### # \ #
# \ # ### /... http://irix.bris.ac.uk/~sb6729 ...\ ### # / #
# / # ### \______________________________________/ ### # \ #

[Eric Rossing]

On Sun, 18 May 1997 10:52:18 GMT, jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) wrote:

: null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
:
: >James Cole wrote:
: >
: >> Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply

: >> to them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
: >> conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
: >> about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and
: >> say things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by
: >> asking or telling them about objects?

: >
: >The first is easy: ASK JOE ABOUT WORK. Or, if you feel like doing a little

: >extra coding, JOE, HOW IS WORK, or even JOE, HOW HAS WORK BEEN can be made
: >to get the same response.
:
: Ah, this is a good example to explain how the bit about "putting words into
: your mouth" fits in. Say Joe happens to be an old friend of yours who you
: haven't seen in years. Playing the game as "yourself", you might have no
: reason to ask Joe about his job -- unless it is obvious to do so (e.g.
: something in the game text suggests doing this). But, playing a character
: (who may have worked with Joe at the Cannery a while back) it would be a
: natural thing for him/her to do.

Well, any well-written game will, in one way or another, tell the player
that he knew Joe years ago, or drop other hints that Joe's job is
significant.

: With the ask/tell style the basis of communication are things which can

: superficially be observed within the gameworld. This is not the way people
: communicate.
:
: This is another facet of why the Monkey Island style adds up to a more
: "real" conversation.

But it doesn't! MI's conversations are scripted conversations handed to me
by the authors of the game. I don't want to find out that Joe knows nothing
about the blue goose because there aren't any menu choices about it. I want
to be able to ask him and hear him say he knows nothing about it. But I've
never seen a MI-style interface that allows that.

It's also annoying when you put things together sooner than the writers
allow you to. I haven't played Monkey Island, but I've been playing Star
Trek:TNG, A Final Unity, which uses the same style of conversation. There
have been times when I wanted to ask a character about something, but had to
run around to convince the game that I knew to talk about that. Here's an
example:

On your way to manipulate the life-support systems of a space station, you
run across an injured woman. After helping her, you talk to her and find
out she is the Chief Medical Officer of the station. Does it make more
since to:

A) Ask her then and there if there is anything special needed to access the
life support systems, or

B) Go to the life support system, find out that you need an access code, and
then go back to the doctor to get it, and finally return to the system and
fix the problem?

: Ok, how about these examples:

: - He really needs to think about what he says.
: - Ok, where do you want to meet?
: - Hi, can you tell me where I can have some fun around here?
: - Who's in charge here?
: - Hey, that's a nice hat.
: - But I told you that the water had to go in _after_ the flour!
:
: Basically, it can be any possible thing which someone could say to you, or
: you to someone else.

Yes, but only if the game writers think you ought to be able to say it.
Admittedly, both styles of conversation require the writer to anticipate
everything the player will want to say, but the normal IF way doesn't
broadcast the limitation.

: >I guess I just disagree about which feels less stilted. If I'm in a room

: >with someone and told I have a choice between speaking a simplified
: >version of English, or communicating entirely through a set of pre-printed
: >cards, I'll use the simplified English anyday.
:
: Yes, but were not talking about real life here. I'd do the same in
: that situation too.

And the point here is which conversation style best simulates real life.
One of the big ideas behind good IF (one of the things I look for in a game,
at any rate) is to do as much as possible to draw the player into the game
world by making it seem as natural as possible.

: >> You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a

: >> conversation between two real people.

Yes, but I'm one of the people. Therefore, I want to control what I say...

: >>
: >> As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre

: >> said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather
: >> than yourself.

Personally, I want to be allowed to play the character, and not have the
character played(scripted) for me...

Eric Rossing
ros...@iname.com
http://home.msen.com/~rossing
PGP Public key available on my WWW page

[Andrew Plotkin]

Adam Cadre (ad...@acpub.duke.edu) wrote:
> Jame Cole wrote:
> > With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagen"

> > and then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.
> >
> > 1) What can you tell me about the car?
> > 2) Can I take it for a test drive?
> > 3) What's red stain in the glove box?

> Erik Max Francis replied:

> > This seems to me to be more of a situation where the player is merely
> > forced to find which option the author wanted him to pick.
> >
> > Would there really be a good puzzle where subtlety is important in
> > this way?

> See, there's the problem. You're still thinking in terms of puzzles.

The word "puzzle" can be arbitrarily broad, up to any situation where the
player wants to influence "what happens next."

> It's true that a menu-based conversation interface can turn a puzzle
> into a multiple-choice question complete with everything but a Scantron
> and a #2 pencil -- but if the NPC interaction in the game in question
> is based not on picking the right answer to get the NPC to open the
> door or drink the poison, but rather based around more open-ended
> consequences (the NPC you're talking to likes you a little less, while
> someone else in the room overhears and likes you more, which may be
> a benefit later on, or may be a disadvantage, depending on the plot
> threads you follow in the meantime), then the problem vanishes in a
> puff of green smoke.

I don't think so. First, do you really mean "open-ended?" Open-*middled*
is a better description, since you're talking about a broader range of
consequences of the player's *current* statement, rather than any
attribute of the *end*-goal.

(Aside one: Why do I pick this nit? Because whether it's a "puzzle" or
not is irrelevant. Maybe you *do* want the NPC to open the door, but
it's not going to happen for another three scenes, in which four more
NPCs are going to interact with you and each other using a full
emotion-based simulation engine and true natural language parsing. Or
whatever. The game may ultimately be either a find-the-right-actions
puzzle or an open-ended branching storyline about character interplay;
but neither of these is more or less suited to one kind of interface or
another.)

(Rephrasing of aside one: An "open-ended" scene can be one puzzle in a
puzzle game; a "puzzle" scene can be one interaction in an open-ended
consequences story. Repeat recursively. Therefore, it's obvious that an
interface style can't be suited for just one of these.)

Main point: Well, actually the aside sums it up. If you're interacting
with story, which is presumably the point, you may *want* the NPC to like
you a little less, or whatever. There may not be a single option that the
author wants you to pick; but there will be options that the author wants
you to pick *in order to go a particular direction*. (Unless all the
options lead to the same results, which, again, is presumably not the
point.)

Mmm, let me think of this another way: In any game (not necessarily a

computer game) there is a balance between (A) the number of things you can
do, (B) the number of interesting results, (C) the designer's effort in
inventing results, and (D) the player not getting bored. A choose-your-
own-adventure book, for example, drastically cuts down on (A), and further
cuts down (B) by having plotlines merge up again wherever possible. The
result is almost always dull.

Colossal Cave managed (by some combination of genius and sheer damn luck)
to invent a brilliant balance where (A) is huge, but (B) is vastly trimmed
down, because 98% of the possible commands have boilerplate responses, and
90% of the remaining 2% merge back into each other in a predictable way.

("GET KEYS. GET LAMP" winds up the same as "GET LAMP. GET KEYS.") And yet

somehow we focus on the 2% and are most interested in the 0.2%. And
therefore the game works.

It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I

expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the

commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc. I think that's what the

"ask X about Y" hack is for; it's a syntax where the author can deal with
every conceivable value of X and Y, and even though 98% of the responses
will still be boilerplate, they'll all be plausible boilerplate.

In a menu system -- as opposed to a keyword system -- you're backing up

and giving the player three or four options at a time, instead of

hundreds. This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model

that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
suggestion.

As to the two level-system that we started with -- "ask salesman about

Volkswagen" followed by three options -- it seems unnecessarily

complicated. Well, I should say, just plain complicated. Any hybrid

system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts; I'd be afraid
that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and* forced and
putting-options-in-my-mouth.

But then I haven't tried it.

--Z

--

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

[Andrew Plotkin]

Nulldogma (null...@aol.com) wrote:
> James Cole wrote:

> > Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the
> questions:

> > 1) What can you tell me about this object?

> > 2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.
> > Do you know who he could be?

> To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I know
> exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then "3," etc.,
> until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited options
> invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because it's easy and
> because I don't want to miss any possibilities. Whereas with ASK/TELL I
> never know when I've exhausted the possibilities, adding to the illusion
> of boundlessness.

> I suppose this could work if each choice led to an ever-increasing tree of
> conversation possibilities -- sort of like SUTWIN does with its keywords.
> But this would be a very different kind of game (sort of an elaborate
> Choose Your Own Adventure, or possibly something like Hidden Agenda, for
> those who are familiar with it), and I imagine in any case it would be
> incredibly tedious to write anything much longer than SUTWIN by this
> method.

What Neil said, on both counts. This is what I was getting at with my
extremely long post yesterday.

[Andrew Plotkin]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
> erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

> [...]
> >

> >Main point: Well, actually the aside sums it up. If you're interacting
> >with story, which is presumably the point, you may *want* the NPC to like
> >you a little less, or whatever. There may not be a single option that the
> >author wants you to pick; but there will be options that the author wants
> >you to pick *in order to go a particular direction*. (Unless all the
> >options lead to the same results, which, again, is presumably not the
> >point.)

> ...but isn't this supportive of what Adam was saying?

Do I remember what the heck Adam was saying? :)

> >Mmm, let me think of this another way: In any game (not necessarily a
> >computer game) there is a balance between (A) the number of things you can
> >do, (B) the number of interesting results, (C) the designer's effort in
> >inventing results, and (D) the player not getting bored. A choose-your-
> >own-adventure book, for example, drastically cuts down on (A), and further
> >cuts down (B) by having plotlines merge up again wherever possible. The
> >result is almost always dull.

> >Colossal Cave managed (by some combination of genius and sheer damn luck)
> >to invent a brilliant balance where (A) is huge, but (B) is vastly trimmed
> >down, because 98% of the possible commands have boilerplate responses, and
> >90% of the remaining 2% merge back into each other in a predictable way.

> >("GET KEYS. GET LAMP" winds up the same as "GET LAMP. GET KEYS.")

> what's the point of this example? It doesn't seem to fit in with what
> you're saying.

It's an example of a trivial branch in the storyline which doesn't take
exponential effort to design. Most commands in a game are orthogonal and
independent of each other; only a tiny fraction have broader effects.
Nonetheless, it's that small fraction which the players focus on. Nobody
ever complains that "GET KEYS" has a predictable boilerplate effect.

> >It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
> >expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
> >plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
> >commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.

> I'm not.

I was describing all existing text IF, is the point...

> > I think that's what the
> >"ask X about Y" hack is for; it's a syntax where the author can deal with
> >every conceivable value of X and Y, and even though 98% of the responses
> >will still be boilerplate, they'll all be plausible boilerplate.

> Rubbish. In _every_ Infocom style game I've ever played suspension of

> disbelief was destroyed (to some extent) by not providing adequate (and in
> most cases, obvious) responses. This really does put people off IF (even
> when they understand the systems limitations). (In fact this adds to
> another, and far greater, problem).

> I'm sure Infocom IF fans out there will probably think I'm just an anomaly
> with this sort of opinion. But that's not the case -- they're the
> exception in the vast majority of people out there.

> I intend to elaborate on this subject matter in the future.

Please do; I don't think any of us can really talk about what the vast
majority of people do. I don't get feedback from Command&Conquer players
on the subject -- much less monolingual Chinese duck-farmers. :)

> >In a menu system -- as opposed to a keyword system -- you're backing up
> >and giving the player three or four options at a time, instead of
> >hundreds.

> I see this as an advantage. Because there are a clearly defined number of

> choices you can't get the situation of a default response destroying
> suspension of disbelief.

It's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage.

> Note that this doesn't mean that the Monkey Island technique is just a more
> fool-proof "mass-market" solution.

> I'm interested in knowing exactly why you think hundreds are better?

Not better; I'm saying that it's an approach which is consistent with the
rest (non-conversation portions) of existing text IF. Therefore fans of
existing IF are predisposed to prefer it.

> > This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model
> >that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
> >suggestion.

> Actually, I doubt that. I suspect it's because most haven't actually used

> the Monkey Island style (at least in a decent implementation).

Only one possible follow-up to that claim. Heh.

> >As to the two level-system that we started with -- "ask salesman about
> >Volkswagen" followed by three options -- it seems unnecessarily
> >complicated. Well, I should say, just plain complicated.

> Why does it seem complicated?

Two modes rather than one.

> > Any hybrid
> >system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts; I'd be afraid
> >that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and* forced and
> >putting-options-in-my-mouth.

> How come?

Because that's always the risk when you combine two different systems, of
any sort.

[Richard G Clegg]

Nulldogma (null...@aol.com) wrote:
: James Cole wrote:

: > Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the
: questions:
: > 1) What can you tell me about this object?
: > 2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.
: > Do you know who he could be?

: To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I know
: exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then "3," etc.,
: until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited options
: invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because it's easy and
: because I don't want to miss any possibilities. Whereas with ASK/TELL I
: never know when I've exhausted the possibilities, adding to the illusion
: of boundlessness.

Hmm... the problem is Neil, I don't know about you, but I hardly ever
actually ASK/TELL characters in IF unless I've had a really strong hint
that I need to. Conversation in IF is, generally, pretty limited simply
because the author can only cover such a small portion of the possible
choices. That's why, I find, a game like Monkey Island has far more
complete and satisfying dialogue than even the top IF games simply
because, unless you really persevere, you can't find much to say to IF
characters that they can sensibly respond to.

Can anyone post an extract from an IF game that's anything even like a
conversation which didn't take them ages poking around in the game to
find which words were responded to?

IMHO dialogue is one of the places where Lucas-arts style graphics
adventures win hands down against IF. In IF it's much more of a
struggle simply because of the zillions of things you could ask a
character, even the most dilligent programmer will only have covered a
few hundred and most of them scantily.

This is not to say that I prefer point'n'click - just that I think it
really does win out in this respect.

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: ric...@manor.york.ac.uk
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

[Adam Cadre]

Neil deMause wrote:
> To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I
> know exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then
> "3," etc., until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited
> options invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because
> it's easy and because I don't want to miss any possibilities.

Ah, but what if 1, 2 and 3 all lead to an enigmatic grunt, but at the
end of the game, after you've had all kinds of adventures in the
meantime, your choice turns out to be the factor that determines
whether the NPC tries to kill you, make a pass at you, or both?

[Adam Cadre]

Samuel DAF Barlow wrote:
> I strongly disagree with the statements about the Monkey-Island style
> conversations. I have never found these to work (and, yes, I have
> "experienced" them). The humour that Mr. Cole refers to is the same
> type of humour we see in sitcoms. It is very obvious in MI when we are
> about to see a humourous response, just as in a sitcom when it is

> obvious a joke is being set-up.

This is often true, but I don't think it's necessarily that damning a
criticism -- after all, there =are= funny sitcoms.

> I find it strange that Adam Cadre supports the MI style as a
> way of putting the player in character when his own game, I-0, is a
> brilliant example of how to do this outside of MI menus; like when I
> asked to "open boot" and was told that my character would call it a
> trunk. The large number of humorous responses to my commands also help
> tell the player who he/she is without hitting them over the head.

Thanks for the praise, though you may have hit upon one of my
motivations for trying the menus -- having done one menu-free game,
I want to try other things. I'm not entirely pleased with the ask/tell
interface, and apparently neither are quite a few others; I tried an
alternative type of conversation in I-0 (with Larry in the truck) but
wasn't completely satisfied with it. I plan to try a bunch of different
approaches till I find the one I like the best. This just happens to
be the one I'm currently working on.

> The problem with menus is that they run against the rest of the game,
> they are an artifice which destroys the suspension-of-willing-
> disbelief.

I'm not convinced this is necessarily true. It's certainly a danger,
and if I can't find a way to integrate them well I'll jettison them.
Never know till you try, though.

> One last thing, as regards MI, etc. from my "experience." Although
> Cadre, et al, claim that MI menu's are interactive I have found that
> of the, say, 4 options only 1 is neccessary to the game. As such the
> player is allowed to click through the other options, always returning
> to the 4 initial choices until he picks the "right" one. So, the only
> thing he is choosing is the order in which to say his funny lines.

Two things. First, this is often true, and I suspect is motivated
by the authors' fear that their games are only going to be played
once, and that they'd better make sure that none of their dazzling wit
goes to waste. But it doesn't have to be that way. I certainly don't
plan to do it that way, at least.

Second -- please, call me Adam. Even AdamC is okay, if you want to
distinguish me from the other 150 Adams that frequent this newsgroup.
But when people call me by just my last name I can't help but feel that
they're really mad at me and I'm in big, big trouble.

[Nulldogma]

Adam C. wrote:
> Neil deMause wrote:
> > To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I
> > know exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then
> > "3," etc., until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited
> > options invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because
> > it's easy and because I don't want to miss any possibilities.
>
> Ah, but what if 1, 2 and 3 all lead to an enigmatic grunt, but at the
> end of the game, after you've had all kinds of adventures in the
> meantime, your choice turns out to be the factor that determines
> whether the NPC tries to kill you, make a pass at you, or both?

>KILL AUTHOR
Enraged at how a seemingly harmless action in the game winds up killing
you 200 turns later, you fly at the author in a rage, plunging your elvish
sword of great antiquity into his sadistic little heart.

***YOUR SCORE HAS JUST GONE DOWN BY 50 POINTS, BUT YOU DON'T CARE***

Neil

[Nulldogma]

Andrew Plotkin wrote:

>It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
>expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
>plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
>commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.

You know, it's bad enough that half the people on this newsgroup seem to
have the same name as me, but now even the *commands* are spelling it
out...

[Nulldogma]

Adam Cadre wrote:

> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>> Any hybrid system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts;
>> I'd be afraid that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and*
>> forced and putting-options-in-my-mouth.
>>

>> But then I haven't tried it.
>

> Right. I figure it's worth a shot. I mean, even if it turns out to
> be a colossal failure, the only thing I stand to lose is several months
> of my time. And chances are I wouldn't be doing anything important
> with those anyway.

Besides, if it doesn't work, you can always just restore back to a time
before you started writing the game...

Neil
(who really wanted to ASK ADAM ABOUT GAME, but it wasn't on my menu
options)

[Nulldogma]

James Cole wrote:

> Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the
questions:
> 1) What can you tell me about this object?
> 2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.
> Do you know who he could be?

To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I know

exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then "3," etc.,
until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited options
invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because it's easy and

because I don't want to miss any possibilities. Whereas with ASK/TELL I
never know when I've exhausted the possibilities, adding to the illusion
of boundlessness.

I suppose this could work if each choice led to an ever-increasing tree of

conversation possibilities -- sort of like SUTWIN does with its keywords.
But this would be a very different kind of game (sort of an elaborate
Choose Your Own Adventure, or possibly something like Hidden Agenda, for
those who are familiar with it), and I imagine in any case it would be
incredibly tedious to write anything much longer than SUTWIN by this
method.

Neil

[Francis Irving]

On Thu, 15 May 1997 01:42:55 +0200, Linards Ticmanis
<Linards....@post.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

>
>Example:
>
>You see a thief with a long stiletto.
>>TALK TO THIEF
>"Hello to you. Finally somebody who doesn't assume I'm a stong, silent
>type without even trying."
>>>JOB
>"Well, robbing adventurers blind, cleaning up and sometimes even waxing
>mazes, carrying bags, and just being a general nuisance. Sometimes I
>wield my stiletto as well, and sometimes I even open some tough locks
>for others on my social day."
>>>MAZES
>"Yeah, people tend to use them as garbage disposals, so I clean them up.
>Necessary work is often met with disrespect, I assume, but who'd really
>like to wade through heaps of rotting small leaflets? Nobody."
>>>STILETTO
>"Isn't it shiny? I've found out a mixture of grue's spit and dam water
>will remove all the bloodstains in seconds. Want me to show you?"
>>>YES
>Well, as it's currently shiny (didn't you listen?), he had to produce
>some stains first.
>
> *** You have died ***
>

This is remarkably similar to Space Under The Window.

Francis.

Home: fra...@pobox.co.uk Work: fra...@ncgraphics.co.uk

[Adam Cadre]

Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Main point: Well, actually the aside sums it up. If you're interacting
> with story, which is presumably the point, you may *want* the NPC to
> like you a little less, or whatever. There may not be a single option
> that the author wants you to pick; but there will be options that the
> author wants you to pick *in order to go a particular direction*.
> (Unless all the options lead to the same results, which, again, is
> presumably not the point.)

James Cole replied:

> ...but isn't this supportive of what Adam was saying?

Andrew Plotkin answered:

> Do I remember what the heck Adam was saying? :)

I sure don't. Let check the thread for a minute...

...okay. This is kind of difficult for me since I suspect that what
I'm tentatively pouncing on as your point may well be more like a
"whereas" clause leading up to your point. Let me respond to just
a couple passages. The first is a recap:

> Main point: Well, actually the aside sums it up. If you're interacting
> with story, which is presumably the point, you may *want* the NPC to
> like you a little less, or whatever.

Right. I agree with that.

> There may not be a single option that the author wants you to pick;
> but there will be options that the author wants you to pick *in order
> to go a particular direction*.

I'm having trouble with the word "wants." I think better in the
concrete than in the abstract, so let me make up an example:

Early on, the PC has a conversation with NPC1, while NPC2 sits in the
corner reading the newspaper. NPC1 and NPC2 hate each other. At
several points during the conversation, the PC has the opportunity to
respond warmly or coolly to what NPC1 has said.

Later on in the game, the PC receives a dinner invitation. If the
conversation with NPC1 has been a friendly one, the invitation is from
NPC1. If the conversation was a chilly one, the invitation is from
NPC2. The dinner parties are dramatically different: at NPC1's, a
gang of terrorists breaks in and holds everyone at gunpoint, and your
job is to free the hostages; at NPC2's, you meet a charming stranger
and spend the rest of the game trying to get a romance going. The
author doesn't "want" you to pick either scenario, since both have been
coded -- either choice is just fine with the author. The author
doesn't nudge the player in either direction; on the contrary, the
author hopes that in later replayings of the game, the player will
select a different course so that all the beautiful prose in the
originally unchosen path won't go to waste.

This is the kind of thing I had in mind, which makes this second
passage seem off the mark:

> First, do you really mean "open-ended?" Open-*middled* is a better
> description, since you're talking about a broader range of
> consequences of the player's *current* statement, rather than any
> attribute of the *end*-goal.

No, I'm not. Or at least I didn't intend to. The endpoints =are=
different, as are the eventual goals.

[Erik Max Francis]

James Cole wrote:

> Consider another example: from a distance you see a man surreptitiously
> drop something. All you can distinguish about him is that he's wearing
> a
> red sweater. You go over and pick the object up, noting that it's some
> sort of engine part. There is a mechanic in the town and you decide to
> go
> and ask him about the part.
>
> If you were using the ask/tell style, what would asking the mechanic
> about
> the object mean? Most likely, it'll mean asking him to identify the
> part
> -- but I also want to ask him about the shady character! There is no
> way
> you could do this with the ask/tell style. (and yes, you probably could
> find some sort of awkward workaround for this particular situation, but
> not
> for the general case.)

It seems pretty straightforward: ASK MECHANIC ABOUT MAN or ASK MECHANIC
ABOUT SHADY CHARACTER or ASK MECHANIC ABOUT RED SWEATER.

Or, much more easily, a simulated conversation about the man in the red
sweater could be prompted by ASK MECHANIC ABOUT ENGINE PART.

[Gareth Jones]

rg...@york.ac.uk (Richard G Clegg) writes:

[snip]

>
> Hmm... the problem is Neil, I don't know about you, but I hardly ever
> actually ASK/TELL characters in IF unless I've had a really strong hint
> that I need to. Conversation in IF is, generally, pretty limited simply
> because the author can only cover such a small portion of the possible
> choices. That's why, I find, a game like Monkey Island has far more
> complete and satisfying dialogue than even the top IF games simply
> because, unless you really persevere, you can't find much to say to IF
> characters that they can sensibly respond to.

True, but if IF is written well, then I tend not to want to break
the flow of the story so I don't ask about irrelevant things. Partly
this is a subconscious acceptance of the limitations but also why
should I want to ask a character about something irrelevant?

As an aside, would it improve IF if the NPCs could discuss events
outside the game - either in the real world, or background events in
the game? One reason to constrain an NPC's responses and knowledge is
to prevent plot developments that the author doesn't want. Suppose I
wrote a game about 'The Big Sleep'. No NPC should know about the
chauffeur's murderer or the player might try to solve this murder when
I want them to follow the original plot. Would Christminster be a
better game if you could discuss the Moorish conquest of Spain with Edward?

> Can anyone post an extract from an IF game that's anything even like a
> conversation which didn't take them ages poking around in the game to
> find which words were responded to?

I found Dr. Perelman and Jill in AMFV to be quite good. The only
problem was the Jill couldn't talk about the plan or the BCF but other
than that both characters gave me the impression that the
conversations were unbounded. I don't think I would have felt this if
there had been a menu:
1) Ask Doctor about plan
2) Ask Doctor about Ryder
3) Ask Doctor about himself

>3
........

1) Ask Doctor about plan
2) Ask Doctor about Ryder
3) Ask Doctor about Leah
4) Ask Doctor about Esther

(I think I've got some of the names wrong, but you get the idea.)

I find the main problem with NPC interaction is that TELL X ABOUT Y
doesn't work very often. I suppose that for this to work in the
general case the NPCs need to be able to learn, eg.

> Examine car

It is a blue Ford.

> S

You see Tom

> Ask Tom about blue car

Tom says "I havn't seen any cars."

> Tell Tom about blue car

Tom listens

> Ask Tom about blue car

Tom says "It is a blue Ford, according to you."

> Tell Tom that blue car is red
???????

Apart from the last command the general case of the conversation could
be programmed quite easily but other than by making a special case how
do you get Tom to act on this knowledge? Allowing the player to make
unconstrained statements poses a bigger problem (IMO) than allowing
her to ask unbounded questions.

> Ask Tom about Fermat's last theorum
Tom says "I don't know anything about that."

is fine. But

> Tell Tom about murderer behind him
Tom ignores you
The murderer kills Tom

doesn't work as well (unless you've cried wolf previously). Tell X
about Y, or tell X that Y is Z are very difficult to deal with because
even after the NLP stage and the knowledge representation problem
(neither of which are insurmountable or trivial) the problem is then
to get the character to act on his/her/its/their knowledge. Other
than constraining the plot and using special cases, I don't think that
this can be solved, at least not yet.

> IMHO dialogue is one of the places where Lucas-arts style graphics
> adventures win hands down against IF. In IF it's much more of a
> struggle simply because of the zillions of things you could ask a
> character, even the most dilligent programmer will only have covered a
> few hundred and most of them scantily.

I prefer to be able to choose my own questions, even if I do get "I
don't know anything about that." a lot of the time. I suppose it just
comes down to personal taste.

> This is not to say that I prefer point'n'click - just that I think it
> really does win out in this respect.
>
> --
> Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
> Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
> email: ric...@manor.york.ac.uk
> www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

--
Gareth Jones (gd...@doc.ic.ac.uk)

[Mary K. Kuhner]

I've played two hybrid graphics/text games (Martian Memorandum and
Rise of the Dragon) which used menu-based conversation. In both games
it was frustratingly difficult to develop any sense of the main
character's personality, because whenever I started having a feeling
for who he was and what he'd say, I'd hit a dialog menu that absolutely
didn't cooperate. And reading the "wrong" responses was both
distracting and hard on the characterization. (My subjective impression
was always that the character thought of all responses and then chose
one, so all of them had to be in-character, not just the one chosen.)

I'd prefer a keyword system, even a relatively stilted,
un-conversational one. It's no use having lovely complete sentences
if the player is always thinking "but I wouldn't say that".

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

[James Cole]

erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

>James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
>> erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
>
>> [...]

[...]
>
[...]

>
>> >("GET KEYS. GET LAMP" winds up the same as "GET LAMP. GET KEYS.")
>
>> what's the point of this example? It doesn't seem to fit in with what
>> you're saying.
>
>It's an example of a trivial branch in the storyline which doesn't take
>exponential effort to design. Most commands in a game are orthogonal and
>independent of each other; only a tiny fraction have broader effects.
>Nonetheless, it's that small fraction which the players focus on. Nobody
>ever complains that "GET KEYS" has a predictable boilerplate effect.

I understand, but I don't quite get what the point was.

>> >It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
>> >expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
>> >plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
>> >commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.
>
>> I'm not.
>
>I was describing all existing text IF, is the point...

I don't get what you mean?

[...]

>> >In a menu system -- as opposed to a keyword system -- you're backing up
>> >and giving the player three or four options at a time, instead of
>> >hundreds.
>
>> I see this as an advantage. Because there are a clearly defined number of
>> choices you can't get the situation of a default response destroying
>> suspension of disbelief.
>
>It's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage.

You can't just give a statement without any reasoning whatsoever.

>
>> Note that this doesn't mean that the Monkey Island technique is just a more
>> fool-proof "mass-market" solution.
>
>> I'm interested in knowing exactly why you think hundreds are better?
>
>Not better; I'm saying that it's an approach which is consistent with the
>rest (non-conversation portions) of existing text IF. Therefore fans of
>existing IF are predisposed to prefer it.

You're only looking at some aspects.
I disagree with your conclusion, nothing is as straightforward as that.

>
>> > This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model
>> >that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
>> >suggestion.
>
>> Actually, I doubt that. I suspect it's because most haven't actually used
>> the Monkey Island style (at least in a decent implementation).
>
>Only one possible follow-up to that claim. Heh.

Out of interest, what's your situation?

>
>> >As to the two level-system that we started with -- "ask salesman about
>> >Volkswagen" followed by three options -- it seems unnecessarily
>> >complicated. Well, I should say, just plain complicated.
>
>> Why does it seem complicated?
>
>Two modes rather than one.

Your answer, at least, is a simplification. Two models does not
necessarily imply greater complexity. And complexity doesn't have to mean
anything bad.

>
>> > Any hybrid
>> >system runs the risk of combining the flaws of both parts; I'd be afraid
>> >that the result would feel vague and nonspecific *and* forced and
>> >putting-options-in-my-mouth.
>
>> How come?
>
>Because that's always the risk when you combine two different systems, of
>any sort.

Of course.

James Cole
-----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Mary K. Kuhner]

ad...@acpub.duke.edu writes:

>Neil deMause wrote:
>> To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I
>> know exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then
>> "3," etc., until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited
>> options invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because
>> it's easy and because I don't want to miss any possibilities.

>Ah, but what if 1, 2 and 3 all lead to an enigmatic grunt, but at the

>end of the game, after you've had all kinds of adventures in the
>meantime, your choice turns out to be the factor that determines
>whether the NPC tries to kill you, make a pass at you, or both?

Without some immediate feedback, I'm pretty darned unlikely to connect
the dialog early in the game with the outcome at the end, unless I
deliberately go back and try all the other options. After all, in any
reasonably rich game other actions of mine will have impacted the NPC
in some way, if only indirectly. Since I am not a big replayer, I
may never even *realize* that the NPC might have done different things,
unless his dialog at the end makes that clear. "You insulted me, scurvy
dog! Walk the plank!"

One problem I personally have had with games that try to use a real
model of NPC personality (so that, for example, the more you compliment
someone the better he likes you) is that the most successful strategy
is to *think* of the NPCs that way, as bundles of compliment-counters
and aggression-counters and so forth. The best game implementing this
idea I've ever seen is _Trust and Betrayal_, which had neat NPC
conversations (via a very limited iconic language). But even that one
had stretches where you didn't feel like you were talking to someone,
just trying to pump up one counter or another.

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

[James Cole]

null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:

>To add to all the excellent points that Sam made, in this situation I know
>exactly what I would do: type "1," undo, then "2," undo, then "3," etc.,
>until I'd run through all the options. Obviously limited options
>invariably inspire me to try them all in order, both because it's easy and

>because I don't want to miss any possibilities. Whereas with ASK/TELL I
>never know when I've exhausted the possibilities, adding to the illusion
>of boundlessness.

What illusion of boundlessness? How can you have an illusion of
bounlessness when there are so many responses which destroy suspension of
disbelief.

When using the Infocom ask/tell style you build up a congnitive picture of
what the system can handle. If you can ask about something quite specific
at one point it's going to clash with your mental picture (of how the
system works) when you can't ask about another thing of similarly specifc
later on.

Similarly, if you are constantly being reminded that the system doesn't
"handle" asking about something quite obvious, it's unfair to the player if
to expect them to go and ask about something quite specific.

What am I getting at? The illusion of boundlessness is *very* easily
broken with the ask/tell style.

>I suppose this could work if each choice led to an ever-increasing tree of
>conversation possibilities -- sort of like SUTWIN does with its keywords.
>But this would be a very different kind of game (sort of an elaborate
>Choose Your Own Adventure, or possibly something like Hidden Agenda, for
>those who are familiar with it), and I imagine in any case it would be
>incredibly tedious to write anything much longer than SUTWIN by this
>method.

Talking generally about your post, you've still got it all wrong. Your
still thinking about it in terms of the Infocom and ask/tell style
paradigm.

James Cole
-----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Samuel DAF Barlow <sb6...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:

>On 19 May 1997, Big Mad Drongo wrote:
>
>> James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:

>> : Using a monkey island style of the ask/tell format you ask the questions:

>> : 1) What can you tell me about this object?
>>

>> SHOW OBJECT TO MECHANIC
>OR ASK MECHANIC ABOUT OBJECT
>>

>> : 2) I saw a man drop this, he was wearing a red sweater.

>> : Do you know who he could be?
>>

>> ASK MECHANIC ABOUT MAN IN RED SWEATER
>OR TELL MECHANIC ABOUT MAN IN RED SWEATER
>
>GARAGE
>You are in a garage. A greasy mechanic stands here, looking over a car.
>>Mechanic, hello
>"Hi. How can I help you, young man?"
>>ask mechanic about object
>He looks it over in his hands. "Hmmm. A variable-valve gasket. Where
>d'ya get your hands on this?"
>>tell mechanic about man in red sweater
>~Oh...Bob! He's a shifty fella.~
>>ask mechanic about bob
>etc., etc.

My example wasn't the best to illustrate what I was talking about.

That aside, the simple fact is, there are many obvious, simple, and valid
questions which the ask/tell style can't handle. *At least not in a
general way*. It is very important that they do handle them in a general
way.
Am I going to bother explaining this or giving examples? No, not at the
moment. Think about it.

>I strongly disagree with the statements about the Monkey-Island style
>conversations. I have never found these to work (and, yes, I have
>"experienced" them). The humour that Mr. Cole refers to is the same type
>of humour we see in sitcoms.

Not necessarily. Not all the humor in Monkey Island is like this.

> It is very obvious in MI when we are about
>to see a humourous response, just as in a sitcom when it is obvious a
>joke is being set-up.

That is not true.

> In Ask/Tell I-F, the player can be suprised by
>an answer.

And please, do tell me why this can't happen in Monkey Island style.
You can't.

> I find it strange that Adam Cadre supports the MI style as a
>way of putting the player in character when his own game, I-0, is a
>brilliant example of how to do this outside of MI menus;

perhaps he's a little more open minded?

> like when I
>asked to "open boot" and was told that my character would call it a
>trunk. The large number of humorous responses to my commands also help
>tell the player who he/she is without hitting them over the head.

Relevance to you point?

and are you implying that the monkey island style really forces it upon
you?

By itself, this example looks quite convincing. Step back and consider it
within the context of a real game and things change. It doesn't work like
this. ]

>The problem with menus is that they run against the rest of the game,
>they are an artifice which destroys the suspension-of-willing-disbelief.

exaplain exactly how and why they do this?

>If the whole game were menu-driven it would be OK.

why exactly?

> Whereas the ASk,TELL
>convention is part of the parser which we use in the other parts of the
>game.

Your drawing simplistic conclusions.

> I-F's main strength is the fact that its input, the parser is
>textual as is the output.

>Menu's take this away; the player no-longer types his actions, but is read them.

Again, you're drawing simplistic conclusions.

>Now we are back to fiction, minus the interactivity.

What? That statement is completely ridiculous. Not only can it be highly
interactive, but, as in real conversations, also involve quite a bit of
thinking about what to say.

>One last thing, as regards MI, etc. from my "experience." Although
>Cadre, et al, claim that MI menu's are interactive I have found that of
>the, say, 4 options only 1 is neccessary to the game.

That is wrong. Simple observation or usage can disprove that.

> As such the player
>is allowed to click through the other options, always returning to the 4
>initial choices until he picks the "right" one.

Untrue.

> So, the only thing he is
>choosing is the order in which to say his funny lines.

There is a lot more depth to it than that. Even if you had seen a game in
which what you're describing is true, I think an intellegent person could
see the possibilities of what could be done.

Throughout your post you've given simplistic reasons. You've given
statements, not reasons. If you want to prove anything you've got to do
more than that.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Barbara Robson <rob...@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au> wrote:

>jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:
>
[...]

>|If you were using the ask/tell style, what would asking the mechanic about
>|the object mean? Most likely, it'll mean asking him to identify the part
>|-- but I also want to ask him about the shady character! There is no way
>|you could do this with the ask/tell style. (and yes, you probably could
>|find some sort of awkward workaround for this particular situation, but not
>|for the general case.)
>

My example was poor.

>Actually, it's not at all difficult to do this for the general case.
>Simply set the possible conversation topics up as objects and give them
>names that reflect what is likely to be asked about. Then you could
>have, for example:

I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY you can set up the general case for very
"specific" questions. There is no way you could set up all the possible
topics, and you can't just do it for particular situations -- it's pretty
well all or nothing.

I do understand that it's probably not entirely clear what I mean,
especially from my example. "Specific" and "general case" are quite open
to interpretation. At the moment I'm tired and I'm cold :) so I'll explain
later.

>InfoObj Part "purpose of the engine part"
> with name "part" "object" "purpose" "of" "the" "engine",
> description "~Ah yes, it's a mark I technobabble.~";
>
>InfoObj Crook "shady character who dropped the engine part",
> with name "part" "man" "red" "wearing" "sweater" "engine" "object"
> "shady" "character" "who" "dropped" "the",
> description "The mechanic looks a little afraid. ~Nope. Don't
> know anything about him. Never saw him.~";
>
>If the player types "Ask the mechanic about the engine part", the
>parser will then seek clarification ("Which do you mean, the purpose
>of the engine part, or the shady character who dropped the engine
>part?"), and the player can respond, just as in the case of a menu-
>based system. Alternatively, they can be more explicit in the original
>question ("Ask him about the man who dropped the part") and it will go
>directly to the relevant response, without needing extra coding or
>forcing the player to fiddle with menus. This will work for the general
>case.
>
>Menus-vs-simplified natural language is a matter of preference.

Calling it simplified natural language is misleading. The ask/tell style
is NOT anything like simplified natural language.

[...]

James Cole
----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:

>I've played two hybrid graphics/text games (Martian Memorandum and
>Rise of the Dragon) which used menu-based conversation. In both games
>it was frustratingly difficult to develop any sense of the main
>character's personality, because whenever I started having a feeling
>for who he was and what he'd say, I'd hit a dialog menu that absolutely
>didn't cooperate. And reading the "wrong" responses was both
>distracting and hard on the characterization. (My subjective impression
>was always that the character thought of all responses and then chose
>one, so all of them had to be in-character, not just the one chosen.)
>

Considering that I was talking about Monkey Island style conversation when
I started this thread, I want to point out that it's conversation is very
different to this.

>I'd prefer a keyword system, even a relatively stilted,
>un-conversational one. It's no use having lovely complete sentences
>if the player is always thinking "but I wouldn't say that".
>

This problem doesn't have to occur if it's done right.

James Cole
----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Big Mad Drongo]

Samuel DAF Barlow (sb6...@irix.bris.ac.uk) wrote:
: The problem with menus is that they run against the rest of the game,

: they are an artifice which destroys the suspension-of-willing-disbelief.

: If the whole game were menu-driven it would be OK.

Indeed - I think you've hit the nail right on the head there. The
menu-driven system is fine (and even preferable) in games like Monkey
Island because it fits in with the point-and-click interface of the game
as a whole. But when we're talking about interactive fiction such as games
produced in Inform then it really does stand out like a sore thumb. Any
game that offers me a menu as part of the main game had better have a good
reason for doing so, or I'll just stop playing it - it just doesn't feel
right in context. The only place I've found menus to work in text
adventures is for the help system provided by Infocom (and similar) games.

Adrian

[Michael Straight]

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Adam Cadre wrote:

> Thanks for the praise, though you may have hit upon one of my
> motivations for trying the menus -- having done one menu-free game,
> I want to try other things. I'm not entirely pleased with the ask/tell
> interface, and apparently neither are quite a few others; I tried an
> alternative type of conversation in I-0 (with Larry in the truck) but
> wasn't completely satisfied with it.

Although I loved I-0 (haven't finished exploring it yet, actually), I
didn't like the Larry conversation thing very much. For one thing, it
would give really weird results if you try to ask/talk to Larry in the
space between his questions because he would answer and then continue the
conversation as if he hadn't, giving stuff like this:

"You go to Dorado state?" Larry asks?

[enter yes, no, or refuse]> no

> ask larry about car

"I seen plenty of cars worse than that."
"Oh, U of Dorado?" Larry says. "I didn't realize I wuz dealin with a
whiz kid here."

Of course the traditional ask/tell system can also yield some weird
non-sequiters too. My real beef with it was that it broke the immersion
with "meta" instructions and seemed unnecessary. None of the prompted
responses were anything that couldn't have been handled by the standard
"Larry, no" or "Larry, college." And refusal could have been implied by
any action other than responding.

I haven't played Monkey Island, so my opinion may be uninformed, but I'd
like to add my vote to the people saying that having multiple-choice
conversations seems much more artificial and closed-ended than the
traditional ask/tell system. Even if ask/tell is every bit as restricted
in the possible responses, it *seems* open-ended, and I think that's very
important to maintaining immersion.

If there's a conversation that you want the player-character to have that
you can't do with ask/tell, I'd prefer something like this (pardon the
poor writing; I'm a player, not an author):

BAR

There is a bartender here.

>ask bartender about drinks

"Do you have anything that won't give me a headache?" you ask with
a giggle.

"Howbout a Shirley Temple?" he replies, giving you a lecherous grin.

>tell bartender about birthday

"Today's my 21st birthday and I'm looking for a good time."

The bartender stares for a few seconds and then asks, "Wanna go out
when my shift is over?"

>bartender, no

"My daddy always told me to never go out with a man who makes me pay
for my own drinks."

The bartender laughs and turns to take another order.

I'd much rather see the ask/tell conversations "expanded," even if they
took a direction I didn't quite intend, than pick responses like these
from a list.

Not that Michael Straight would refuse to try a game w/multiple choice stuff.
FLEOEVDETYHOEUPROEONREWMEILECSOFMOERSGTIRVAENRGEEARDSTVHIESBIITBTLHEEPSRIACYK
Ethical Mirth Gas/"I'm chaste alright."/Magic Hitler Hats/"Hath grace limits?"
"Tight Camel Hairs!"/Chili Hamster Tag/The Gilt Charisma/"I gather this calm."

[Andrew Plotkin]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
> >It's an example of a trivial branch in the storyline which doesn't take
> >exponential effort to design. Most commands in a game are orthogonal and
> >independent of each other; only a tiny fraction have broader effects.
> >Nonetheless, it's that small fraction which the players focus on. Nobody
> >ever complains that "GET KEYS" has a predictable boilerplate effect.

> I understand, but I don't quite get what the point was.

The point is that the illusion of boundlessness, as you described it in
another post, is a lot more resilient than you are claiming. Or, at least,
it holds up very well for me, and I think for a lot of us. I get the
impression that it's much more fragile for you; but this is a matter of
personal preference.

> >> >It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
> >> >expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
> >> >plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
> >> >commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.
> >
> >> I'm not.
> >
> >I was describing all existing text IF, is the point...

> I don't get what you mean?

In all existing text games -- well, Infocom games and the ones built with
TADS and Inform standard libraries -- 75% of the game is trivial commands.
Movement, look, inventory, and so on. Maybe you can't stand this, but the
rest of us seem to have adapted. Furthermore, of the boundless (well,
huge) set of possible commands, 98% produce a dull result like "You don't
see any such thing here" or "You can't pull that."

In the NPC-conversation parts of these games, again, most commands produce
a dull result like "I dasn't noo nowt aboot tha'." And this doesn't really
bother me either, largely because it's so parallel to the previous case,
and therefore I've gotten used to it. But it does tend to bother people
more, which is what I was saying; we do tend to expect that every act of
conversation with an NPC will be understood and will produce an
intelligent response. Because that's how real people behave.

> You can't just give a statement without any reasoning whatsoever.

Demonstratably false; I do it all the time. :)

> >> >This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model
> >> >that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
> >> >suggestion.
> >
> >> Actually, I doubt that. I suspect it's because most haven't actually used
> >> the Monkey Island style (at least in a decent implementation).
> >
> >Only one possible follow-up to that claim. Heh.

> Out of interest, what's your situation?

I have a day job, and my spare time is all taken up right now with writing
a Mac graphics tool. When I finish that, I have at two well-developed plot
lines that I want to turn into games, and at least one more set of ideas
which I want to develop and then turn into a game. Plus assorted other
projects, some related to IF. Exploring new NPC-interaction modes is so far
down the list that it's got coal veins running through it. :(

[Mike Phillips]

On 20 May 97, Barbara Robson <rob...@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
>jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:
>
>Actually, it's not at all difficult to do this for the general case.
>Simply set the possible conversation topics up as objects and give them
>names that reflect what is likely to be asked about. Then you could
>have, for example:
>

>InfoObj Part "purpose of the engine part"
> with name "part" "object" "purpose" "of" "the" "engine",
> description "~Ah yes, it's a mark I technobabble.~";
>
>InfoObj Crook "shady character who dropped the engine part",
> with name "part" "man" "red" "wearing" "sweater" "engine" "object"
> "shady" "character" "who" "dropped" "the",
> description "The mechanic looks a little afraid. ~Nope. Don't
> know anything about him. Never saw him.~";
>

I would get the adname.h add-on, and use adname for several of those (e.g.
'of' and 'the' in particular) to avoid disambiguation because of common
"throwaway" words. (In fact, I'm using this in a game I'm working on with a
reference book and the Encyclopedia Frobozzica code to avoid selfsame problem
with 'of' in particular.)

Mike Phillips, mi...@lawlib.wm.edu

[Joe Mason]

"Re: ask rec.arts.int-fict", declared Erik Max from the Vogon ship:

EM>The alternative seems much cleaner to me -- where a certain
EM>well-defined set of conversation verbs are used to communicate with
EM>the other characters in well-defined ways. Basically the words are
EM>more like keywords, with TELL MOM ABOUT FIRE being more concise then
EM>entering some two-way dialog:

EM> > TELL MOM ABOUT FIRE
EM> "What the! Who did it? Who did it?" she yipes, while running
EM> around looking for towels, as if that will help.

EM> > SAY [or ANSWER] JOHNNY
EM> "Oh, that little boy is going to get it! . . ."

EM>There can be a host of these verbs, such as ASK PRINCIPAL ABOUT
EM>PADDLE, SHOW GUN TO TROLL, SAY HALLELUJAH, ANSWER NO, etc.

EM>These seem to make it much more a game than just picking the right
EM>multiple choice answer -- or, in the case where a new answer pops up,
EM>pickign the only obvious answer.

This works for simple things like your example, but if you actually want
two-way conversation it gets harder. For example, implement this using
keywords:

Urabi stares at you. Flames burn in his eyes. His voice is a narrow
hiss.

"You have heard the voice. I can see it in your eyes! She speaks to you,
too. What has she told you?"

Your response:

(1) "What voice? I don't know what you're talking about!"
(2) "She didn't tell me anything."
(3) "She told me not to trust you."
(4) "The voice speaks to you? I thought I was the only one!"
(5) "She told me I could take you by surprise - she betrayed me!"
(6) Say nothing.

> 1

Urabi draws back his hand and strikes you across the face. The blow is
only slightly softened by the bandage on his hand. "Answer me!"

Your response:

(1) "I'm trying! I don't know anything!"
(2) "She didn't tell me anything."
(3) "She told me not to trust you."
(4) "The voice speaks to you? I thought I was the only one!"
(5) "She told me I could take you by surprise - she betrayed me!"
(6) Say nothing.

> 5

Urabi smiles, and some of the tension drains from his face. "I was
worried," he whispers. "She promised me that I would be the victor. When
I realized she spoke to you as well, I thought that I was the one who
was betrayed." He chuckles. "Soon... Soon I will be with her."

He strides to the door and leaves. For the first time, he has neglected
to check the tightness of your bonds.

As you can see, it's NOT obvious what to pick. You can eventually find
the right one by trying all of them in turn, of course, but in a game of
this type the storyline would branch according to which you pick, so if
you find something that seems to work you still wouldn't know if its the
best.

The problem with doing this using keywords is finding keywords for
complex topics. Even if you can find a way to do it, the player may not
think of the same keywords as you and get a guess-the-word problem.

Joe

þ CMPQwk 1.42 9550 þWhen in doubt, duck. - Malcolm Forbes

[James Cole]

Gareth Jones <gd...@oak21.doc.ic.ac.uk> wrote:

>rg...@york.ac.uk (Richard G Clegg) writes:
>
>[snip]
>>
>> Hmm... the problem is Neil, I don't know about you, but I hardly ever
>> actually ASK/TELL characters in IF unless I've had a really strong hint
>> that I need to. Conversation in IF is, generally, pretty limited simply
>> because the author can only cover such a small portion of the possible
>> choices. That's why, I find, a game like Monkey Island has far more
>> complete and satisfying dialogue than even the top IF games simply
>> because, unless you really persevere, you can't find much to say to IF
>> characters that they can sensibly respond to.

>True, but if IF is written well, then I tend not to want to break
>the flow of the story so I don't ask about irrelevant things.

How do you manage to do that?

> Partly
>this is a subconscious acceptance of the limitations but also why
>should I want to ask a character about something irrelevant?

I doesn't have to be anything irrelevant.

>As an aside, would it improve IF if the NPCs could discuss events
>outside the game - either in the real world,

As a point of interests: Obviously "in the real world" can mean many
things. Depending on which one you take it as has large effects on the
answer to your question.

> or background events in
>the game? One reason to constrain an NPC's responses and knowledge is
>to prevent plot developments that the author doesn't want. Suppose I
>wrote a game about 'The Big Sleep'. No NPC should know about the
>chauffeur's murderer or the player might try to solve this murder when
>I want them to follow the original plot.

[...]

I really don't think there's any simple answer to your question -- there's
so many things to consider. That aside, I'm quite sure that it could work
quite well, if implemented right.

>> Can anyone post an extract from an IF game that's anything even like a
>> conversation which didn't take them ages poking around in the game to
>> find which words were responded to?

>I found Dr. Perelman and Jill in AMFV to be quite good. The only
>problem was the Jill couldn't talk about the plan or the BCF but other
>than that both characters gave me the impression that the
>conversations were unbounded. I don't think I would have felt this if
>there had been a menu:
>1) Ask Doctor about plan
>2) Ask Doctor about Ryder
>3) Ask Doctor about himself

>>3
[...rest of example snipped...]

I just want to point out that the Monkey Island style does not work like
this at all. The result is quite different.

[...]
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

ros...@iname.com (Eric Rossing) wrote:

>On Sun, 18 May 1997 10:52:18 GMT, jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) wrote:
>
>: null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
>:
>: >James Cole wrote:
>: >
>: >> Firstly, because you say something, the other person replies, you reply
>: >> to them, and so on. Secondly, the content is more like a natural
>: >> conversation: you aren't restricted to just objects, but can also talk
>: >> about more abstract subjects, like "Hey, Joe, how has work been?" and
>: >> say things like "Yeh, I know what you mean". Do you talk to people by
>: >> asking or telling them about objects?
>: >
>: >The first is easy: ASK JOE ABOUT WORK. Or, if you feel like doing a little
>: >extra coding, JOE, HOW IS WORK, or even JOE, HOW HAS WORK BEEN can be made
>: >to get the same response.
>:
>: Ah, this is a good example to explain how the bit about "putting words into
>: your mouth" fits in. Say Joe happens to be an old friend of yours who you
>: haven't seen in years. Playing the game as "yourself", you might have no
>: reason to ask Joe about his job -- unless it is obvious to do so (e.g.
>: something in the game text suggests doing this). But, playing a character
>: (who may have worked with Joe at the Cannery a while back) it would be a
>: natural thing for him/her to do.
>
>Well, any well-written game will, in one way or another, tell the player
>that he knew Joe years ago, or drop other hints that Joe's job is
>significant.

There's the problem, hinting would ruin it. Sure, in some cases it might
fit in well. But, in most it will seem unnatural, forced, and awkward.

"How his job's going" may just be something which the character wants to
ask Joe about, there may be no real purpose to it. Perhaps Joe's answer
only adds a bit of characterisation, or gives an insight to your
character's relation to Joe in the past. Hinting is too unelegant in doing
this. Espeically so, if you want to have more "real" conversations, like
you'd have in a book, movie, etc.

>: With the ask/tell style the basis of communication are things which can
>: superficially be observed within the gameworld. This is not the way people
>: communicate.
>:
>: This is another facet of why the Monkey Island style adds up to a more
>: "real" conversation.
>
>But it doesn't! MI's conversations are scripted conversations handed to me
>by the authors of the game. I don't want to find out that Joe knows nothing
>about the blue goose because there aren't any menu choices about it. I want
>to be able to ask him and hear him say he knows nothing about it. But I've
>never seen a MI-style interface that allows that.

You've totally missed the point.

>It's also annoying when you put things together sooner than the writers
>allow you to. I haven't played Monkey Island, but I've been playing Star
>Trek:TNG, A Final Unity, which uses the same style of conversation. There
>have been times when I wanted to ask a character about something, but had to
>run around to convince the game that I knew to talk about that. Here's an
>example:
[...example snipped...]

From the discussion it's been made clear that the Monkey Island style can
have a lot of problems if not implemented well. Obviously a bad situation
like in you example can occur fairly easily.

You have to remember though, these types of situations can generally be
avoided. It is even possible to do it so it's not obvious to the user that
you're trying to avoid the problem.

Nothing is perfect, problems can and do occur with the Monkey Island
system. Part of my preference for it stems from it's disadvantages being
far less than the ask/tell style. As for the advantages of both systems
it's a more subjective affair, you may like one system better than the
other. This is Ok; but what you can't do is separate the advantages and
disadvantages of a system. You have to consider something as a whole.

>: Ok, how about these examples:
>: - He really needs to think about what he says.
>: - Ok, where do you want to meet?
>: - Hi, can you tell me where I can have some fun around here?
>: - Who's in charge here?
>: - Hey, that's a nice hat.
>: - But I told you that the water had to go in _after_ the flour!
>:
>: Basically, it can be any possible thing which someone could say to you, or
>: you to someone else.

>Yes, but only if the game writers think you ought to be able to say it.

You've missed the point.

>Admittedly, both styles of conversation require the writer to anticipate
>everything the player will want to say, but the normal IF way doesn't
>broadcast the limitation.

more choices <> less limitated.

>: >I guess I just disagree about which feels less stilted. If I'm in a room
>: >with someone and told I have a choice between speaking a simplified
>: >version of English, or communicating entirely through a set of pre-printed
>: >cards, I'll use the simplified English anyday.
>:
>: Yes, but were not talking about real life here. I'd do the same in
>: that situation too.
>
>And the point here is which conversation style best simulates real life.

why?

>One of the big ideas behind good IF (one of the things I look for in a game,
>at any rate) is to do as much as possible to draw the player into the game
>world by making it seem as natural as possible.

If you truly understood both systems you would know that the Monkey Island
style actually does quite a good job of this.

In realy life, when you're talking to someone you think of what to say.
Sure, in most cases it's pretty much automatic. But, at every point in the
conversation when it's "your turn" you DO have a set of choices of what you
can say.

You DON'T talk to people by asking (or telling) them about a series of
objects. It's not natural.

Now Monkey Island does give you a limited number of things to say, but,
done right, it can still give you an impression of a conversation. You are
playing a character, and your choices are the things the character has
"thought" he/she might say. You are still folloing the same pattern as
real conversations -- deciding what to say at a particular point. In this
way, it does "feel" more natural.

>
>: >> You really can have a conversation with an NPC which sounds like a
>: >> conversation between two real people.
>
>Yes, but I'm one of the people. Therefore, I want to control what I say...
>
You can. The choices are limited **at each point in the conversation** but
this is not that far away from real conversation anyway.

What **real** control do you have in the ask/tell style?? Sure, you can
ask/tell about any object, but there's no control apart from that. Do you
really have any control over the meaning of your question.

Think about if you had to talk to someone but could only ask them an
initial question. Then questions about the "objects" mentioned/raised in
their reply. You'd find there were many things you'd like to ask them
about which you couldn't.

>: >> As for putting words into your mouth, it's supposed to. As Adam Cadre
>: >> said, it's much more suited to games where you play a character rather
>: >> than yourself.
>
>Personally, I want to be allowed to play the character, and not have the
>character played(scripted) for me...
>
Look, that's just not how it works. Simple as that.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

>James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
[...]

>
>> I understand, but I don't quite get what the point was.
>
>The point is that the illusion of boundlessness, as you described it in
>another post, is a lot more resilient than you are claiming. Or, at least,
>it holds up very well for me, and I think for a lot of us. I get the
>impression that it's much more fragile for you; but this is a matter of
>personal preference.

I don't think it has that much to do with personal preference -- though I'm
sure that's what most people would say. I think it's because "you're" used
to it -- as you mention later.

If you've been a fan Infocom style since games back when they were "big"
then you would have had a reason to "overlook" this sort of problem. After
all, if there are some really good things about a game, then you'll be more
willing to be not so bothered by problems like that.

I, or any person who wasn't a fan of those types of games, are not used to
it, and have no reason to "play down" these problems.

>> >> >It's all somehow different for conversation. We expect (at least, I
>> >> >expect) every act of conversation to be interesting and relevant to the
>> >> >plot -- even though we're perfectly happy with a game where 75% of the
>> >> >commands are "N", "N", "E", "I", "L", ... etc.
>> >
>> >> I'm not.
>> >
>> >I was describing all existing text IF, is the point...
>
>> I don't get what you mean?
>
>In all existing text games -- well, Infocom games and the ones built with
>TADS and Inform standard libraries -- 75% of the game is trivial commands.
>Movement, look, inventory, and so on. Maybe you can't stand this,

I did *not* say I disliked it.

> but the
>rest of us seem to have adapted. Furthermore, of the boundless (well,
>huge) set of possible commands, 98% produce a dull result like "You don't
>see any such thing here" or "You can't pull that."
>
>In the NPC-conversation parts of these games, again, most commands produce
>a dull result like "I dasn't noo nowt aboot tha'." And this doesn't really
>bother me either, largely because it's so parallel to the previous case,
>and therefore I've gotten used to it.

> But it does tend to bother people
>more, which is what I was saying; we do tend to expect that every act of
>conversation with an NPC will be understood and will produce an
>intelligent response. Because that's how real people behave.

Right, I got the impression that you thought it was unjustified for people
to be more bothered about it more with NPC's.

>> >> >This is not unworkable, but it does jar against the IF model
>> >> >that we're all used to. I think that's why people react badly to the
>> >> >suggestion.
>> >
>> >> Actually, I doubt that. I suspect it's because most haven't actually used
>> >> the Monkey Island style (at least in a decent implementation).
>> >
>> >Only one possible follow-up to that claim. Heh.
>
>> Out of interest, what's your situation?
>
>I have a day job, and my spare time is all taken up right now with writing
>a Mac graphics tool. When I finish that, I have at two well-developed plot
>lines that I want to turn into games, and at least one more set of ideas
>which I want to develop and then turn into a game. Plus assorted other
>projects, some related to IF. Exploring new NPC-interaction modes is so far
>down the list that it's got coal veins running through it. :(
>

I'm assuming this means you haven't played Monkey Island (or something
equivalent) (?)

James Cole
----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Paul Francis Gilbert]

Alan Shutko <a...@hubert.wustl.edu> writes:

>>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Rossing <ros...@iname.com> writes:

>Eric> I haven't played Monkey Island, but I've been playing Star
>Eric> Trek:TNG, A Final Unity, which uses the same style of
>Eric> conversation.

>I think that most people who oppose this probably haven't played
>Monkey Island. The reason MI worked so well was that the game had
>brilliant script writers who made the most of the interface. You also
>had a specific character that was being written for.

>A lot of the humor of MI couldn't be expressed in a typical ask/tell
>interface, because a lot of it was stuff that Guybrush (the
>protagonist) said. MI was probably less a game where you are the main
>character than one where you are the a little voice inside the
>character's head. Guybrush talked to himself, occasionally did stuff
>on his own (especially in one hilarious scene where the authors made
>fun of the interface), and had a well-defined personality.

Another good example was Simon the Sorcerer. One of favorate moments in the
game: Wizards: "What makes you think we're wizards". One of simons responses:
"Because when I move the mouse cursor on you it says wizards."

Well, that and Doctor von Jones trying to find the missing link between man
and vegetable. Simon response: "You mean Dan Quale?"

>I think there's definitely room in IF for this type of game. I'd love
>to play a text-based one.

>--
>Alan Shutko <a...@hubert.wustl.edu> - By consent of the corrupted
>This unit... must... survive.

--
Paul Gilbert | p...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au
Bach App Sci, Bach Eng | The opinions expressed are my own, all my own, and
Year 4, RMIT Melbourne | as such will contain no references to small furry
Australia | creatures from Alpha Centauri.

[Mike Fessler]

: But how many times have you *played* or *interacted* with a sitcom?

Well, there was that segment of "Nord and Bert"...

[Irene Callaci]

Sorry, but I've played Monkey Island, and I much prefer the ask/tell
system
used in most text adventures over the multiple-choice system. In Monkey
Island, I found myself cycling through all the conversational
possibilities
to see if I could tell which one was "correct." This pretty much ruined
the
atmosphere of the game for me.

This issue seems to be one of those subjective personal opinion things
that
can become almost religious in its intensity. I'm more than willing to
try
a text adventure with a new way of conversing with NPCs, but I guess I'm
somewhat skeptical about the liklihood of my preferring the
multiple-choice
method over the ask/tell system.

irene

[Russell Glasser]

Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>
> One problem I personally have had with games that try to use a real
> model of NPC personality (so that, for example, the more you compliment
> someone the better he likes you) is that the most successful strategy
> is to *think* of the NPCs that way, as bundles of compliment-counters
> and aggression-counters and so forth. The best game implementing this
> idea I've ever seen is _Trust and Betrayal_, which had neat NPC
> conversations (via a very limited iconic language). But even that one
> had stretches where you didn't feel like you were talking to someone,
> just trying to pump up one counter or another.
>

Ah yes, I rather humorously remember "Quest for Glory III", in
which one secondary goal was to be kind and virtuous enough to turn your
character into a paladin at the end of the game. If your honor score is
high enough when the game ends, you succeed in that.
Somebody quickly found and exploited a bug -- you just buy a ton
of food from the cheapest possible source, then spend about twenty minutes
giving it all away to the local beggar. Click, click, click... how's THAT
for effective social interaction? Can't help wondering what the guy could
possibly do with all that food, since most of it would probably spoil long
before he got to eat it.
In general I'm not impressed with number-based social interaction,
but I do think that NPC's changing attitudes can effectively show
themselves if you have a few clear-cut states (say, friendly,
disinterested, vaguely annoyed, and hostile) and you can't just sit there
repeating compliments over and over again. The player shouldn't be
pissing off NPC's in the first place unless provoked. If he does, he
should be forced to go through a lot of difficult apologies or even a
quest in order to get on their good side again. (This is assuming
conversations in the Monkey Island style, again.)
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw

Russell can be heckled at
http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser

[Arlo Smith]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
: With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagon" and
: then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.

: 1) What can you tell me about the car?

Isn't this the same question? Ask Salesman about Volks. The answer to
this command could change, too, depending on what the salesman knows you
know.

: 2) Can I take it for a test drive?

Ask salesman about test drive.

: 3) What's red stain in the glove box?

Ask salesman about red stain

[Cardinal Teulbachs]

(I can't post news myself atm, so my lacke... good friend Cardinal T
is doing it for me.)

Whew! This conversation thread is a bit popular, isn't it? Well,
I've only been skimming through the contributions of the last few
days, so someone else may have already suggested what I suggest below.

I was going to implement a "Monkey Island"-style menu system of
conversation in a game I've not been working on. However, I
eventually became less than satisfied with the concept, and thought
about how it might be improved. My idea is to merge the menu system
with the "ask x about y" system. So, there is only one conversational
verb, "talk." You can either "talk to npc" or you can "talk to npc
about <subject>." If you "talk to npc" a list of topics pops up, with
certain keywords highlighted in each topic. You can then "talk to npc
about <subject>," where <subject> is one of these keywords (or a
reasonable synonym, of course). For example:
>talk to vampire
What do you want to say to the vampire?
"So... er... you like *blood* then?"
"I hear you have a thing about *virgins*."
"Ever heard of *Max Schreck*, bub?"
"Hey, nice *fangs*! Who's your *dentist*?"

>talk to vampire about blood
"So... er... you like blood then?" you venture.

"Why yes," he says, "And I believe I know where I might get some."
He takes a step closer.

>talk to vampire about grace kelly [or anything not in the list]
You strike up a conversation with the vampire. He makes small talk
politely enough, but he's taken another step towards you.
Unsettling.

>talk to vampire about fangs
"Hey, nice fangs! Who's your dentist?" you say nervously.

"Yes," he says, opening his mouth and massaging the back of one
sharp fang with a long, pointed tongue, "They *are* rather impressive,
aren't they?" You notice he's evaded your question about his
dentist.

>talk to vampire
What do you want to say to the vampire?
"So... er... you like *blood* then?"
"I hear you have a thing about *virgins*."
"Ever heard of *Max Schreck*, bub?"
"But seriously, who is your *dentist*?"

>talk to vampire about his dentist
"But seriously, who is your dentist?" you ask.

"That information is private!" bellows the vampire, as he launches
himself across the room, and buries those fine fangs into your neck.

** You have died rather horribly **

This system combines the two traditional systems, but can optionally
be used as either. To use it in the same way as you would use the
"ask x about y" system, just don't "talk to npc" without a subject (or
a game could have a "talk menu off" command which would turn the lists
of topics off). And as Cardinal T points out, the "talk to npc"
command also acts as a mild hint system. Obviously "talk to npc"
would be a system-meta-x command, while "talk to npc about <subject>"
would be a normal one.

Jools
--
"For small erections may be finished by their first architects; grand
ones, true ones, ever leave the copestone to posterity. God keep me
from ever completing anything." -- Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"

[James Cole]

Samuel DAF Barlow <sb6...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 19 May 1997, Adam Cadre wrote:
>

>> Samuel DAF Barlow wrote:
>> > type of humour we see in sitcoms. It is very obvious in MI when we are

>> > about to see a humourous response, just as in a sitcom when it is

>> > obvious a joke is being set-up.
>>
>> This is often true, but I don't think it's necessarily that damning a
>> criticism -- after all, there =are= funny sitcoms.

>
>But how many times have you *played* or *interacted* with a sitcom?

Not once.

How does your statement effect anything? Please explain.

James Cole
----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

p.s. To the people who I didn't have time to reply to parts of their posts
-- they're on the way. I'm also going to post something soon about how
"menu based conversation systems don't fit in well with IF".
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

bl...@torfree.net (Arlo Smith) wrote:

>James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
>: With the Monkey Island style you could "ask salesman about Volkswagon" and
>: then be presented with a series of questions to ask him.
>
>: 1) What can you tell me about the car?
>
>Isn't this the same question? Ask Salesman about Volks. The answer to
>this command could change, too, depending on what the salesman knows you
>know.

It's supposed to be the same question.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Irene Callaci <ical...@csupomona.edu> wrote:

>Sorry, but I've played Monkey Island, and I much prefer the ask/tell
>system used in most text adventures over the multiple-choice system. In Monkey
>Island, I found myself cycling through all the conversational possibilities to
>see if I could tell which one was "correct." This pretty much ruined
>the atmosphere of the game for me.

I'd be interested in knowing why you used the system like you say. Did you
have a fair bit of experience with the ask/tell style before using the
Monkey Island style?

To be honest, your experience seems a bit strange to me. It looks as if
you were just trying to find the "right answer" -- just trying to get from
A to B, and not stopping to look at the scenery along the way.

Usually, in Monkey Island, there is no one single "correct" answer. The
conversations are more shaded and richer than that. More often it's the
act of the conversation itself that's rewarding.

>This issue seems to be one of those subjective personal opinion things
>that can become almost religious in its intensity.

There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but
there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of
subjective personal opinion.

> I'm more than willing to
>try a text adventure with a new way of conversing with NPCs, but I guess I'm
>somewhat skeptical about the liklihood of my preferring the multiple-choice
>method over the ask/tell system.
>

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Samuel DAF Barlow]

On Thu, 22 May 1997, James Cole wrote:

> >> > type of humour we see in sitcoms. It is very obvious in MI when we are
> >> > about to see a humourous response, just as in a sitcom when it is
> >> > obvious a joke is being set-up.
> >> This is often true, but I don't think it's necessarily that damning a
> >> criticism -- after all, there =are= funny sitcoms.
> >
> >But how many times have you *played* or *interacted* with a sitcom?
>
> Not once.
>
> How does your statement effect anything? Please explain.
>

We are discussing interactive-fiction; a form of interactive
entertainment. A sitcom is not interactive. My point was that the menu
system does not add to the interactive experience. Hence Adam's point
that Sitcoms are funny does not provide an adequate defence for this
type of humour being used in an interactive-"story".

Sam.

[Daryl McCullough]

Mary K. Kuhner wrote:

> The ask/tell system puts a low value on "sounding like a real
> converation" compared to the menu system; the things the speaker says
> are *very* flat and dull. You can jazz them up a little:
>
> >ASK SALESMAN ABOUT SPOT
>
> "How about that spot, huh? You trying to hide something from me?"
> you say accusingly.
>
> but this kind of hybrid risks inheriting the problems of the menu
> system without its virtues, since you're not allowing the player
> any choice about the flavor-text at all. (The player may have had
> no idea that just asking about the spot would produce such a rude,
> accusatory statement.)

Here's an idea for a gimmick that would make this kind of unintended
outburst a part of the game:

The player is travelling in a foreign land, Foobia, in which
he/she doesn't speak the language. But the player picks up
two objects that help him/her to communicate with the populace:
One is a telepathic device that allows him/her to understand
the foreign language in a direct sense, but does *not* allow
the player to *speak* the language. The second is a very *bad*
translation device (or perhaps a partially-bilingual parrot).

Then miscommunications like the one you give above would become
part of the story (to be blamed on the stupid translation device).
The player would still be frustrated, but he/she would be frustrated
*in* *character* rather than frustrated out-of-character. Maybe
that's an improvement.

Just a stupid idea. Not a general approach, but a gimmick that might
work for one (humorous) game.

Daryl McCullough
CoGenTex, Inc.
Ithaca, NY

[Mary K. Kuhner]

jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:

>There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but
>there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of
>subjective personal opinion.

I strongly disagree.

In my experience, there are several different virtues which a game
can have. Often they are partly mutually incompatible, and one must
choose which to prioritize. One's priorities are, precisely, subjective
personal opinion.

The ask/tell system puts a low value on "sounding like a real
converation" compared to the menu system; the things the speaker says
are *very* flat and dull. You can jazz them up a little:

>ASK SALESMAN ABOUT SPOT

"How about that spot, huh? You trying to hide something from me?"
you say accusingly.

but this kind of hybrid risks inheriting the problems of the menu
system without its virtues, since you're not allowing the player
any choice about the flavor-text at all. (The player may have had
no idea that just asking about the spot would produce such a rude,
accusatory statement.)

If you value sounding like a real conversation, you'll dislike ask/tell.

On the other hand, the menu system puts a low value on the illusion of
free choices. As you've argued, this is always an illusion; but
much of IF is an illusion, and how the illusions are handled is
important. A player who prioritizes the sense of free choice over the
sense of real conversation will therefore tend to prefer ask/tell. (I
believe this is what Zarf has been trying to say.)

Both very sensible opinions, but there is no way to objectively choose
one, because the core issue--which is more important to me, the illusion
of real conversation or the illusion of free action?--is subjective
and different players will have different answers.

The field would be richer for the presence of games that worked both
ways, so please do pursue this. But not, I beg you, with the mindset
that there is some objective rule that will prove one set of priorities
correct and the other somehow not. All that accomplishes is blinding
you to other peoples' experiences, never a useful thing.

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

[Liza Daly]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
: Irene Callaci <ical...@csupomona.edu> wrote:

: >Sorry, but I've played Monkey Island, and I much prefer the ask/tell
: >system used in most text adventures over the multiple-choice system.
: >In Monkey Island, I found myself cycling through all the
: > conversational possibilities to
: >see if I could tell which one was "correct." This pretty much ruined
: >the atmosphere of the game for me.

: To be honest, your experience seems a bit strange to me. It looks as if

: you were just trying to find the "right answer" -- just trying to get from
: A to B, and not stopping to look at the scenery along the way.

: >This issue seems to be one of those subjective personal opinion things

: >that can become almost religious in its intensity.

: There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but

: there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of
: subjective personal opinion.

Let's see. You and she have played the same game, and reached
different conclusions. This strongly suggests nothing more than a
personal opinion.

As an author, I'm going to code a game in the style of my preference
(or not, if I'm in the mood to experiment). As a player, I'm going to
most enjoy a game that follows my preferred style (but am certainly
open-minded enough to try something different).

Right now, I strongly prefer the Infocom style (which includes more
commands than ASK/TELL, btw). Show me a good implementation of a
menu-based system, and I might change my mind. But I doubt it.

*shrug*

--Liza

--
ge...@retina.net "By the way, I've visited Mr. Joffe's site,
. . . . . . . . and find it quite garish and unappealing."
Iguanas Mailing List: - The House of Erotic Massage (May edition)
http://iml.retina.net/ http://fovea.retina.net/~gecko/

[Irene Callaci]

OK, let me try this one more time:

With the Monkey Island multiple-choice system, the computer
tells ME what I can say or ask. This is not fun, IMHO.

With the type-it-in-yourself system, I tell the computer
what I want to say. Now I am the one who must be creative,
who must think.

Even though the NPC might not understand what I am trying
to say, it *feels* like I am trying to talk to someone on
his or her own level. If the NPC doesn't understand, I can
rephrase it, just as I would in real life.

The multiple-choice method *feels* like I'm being censored
or guided away from certain areas of inquiry. As soon as I
want to say or ask something that has not been pre-
programmed, I am thwarted. I no longer feel that I have
the slightest chance of communicating with someone who is
also trying to communicate with me. Rather, I feel as if
someone (the programmer? the NPC? the government?) has
decided that certain areas of conversation are taboo,
and that I will NOT be allowed even to ask. It's almost
like a press conference where the questions and answers
are already scripted. Even though it looks like a free
and open exchange is taking place, it's NOT.

There. This thread is a perfectly good example of what
I'm talking about. If we were all using the Monkey
Island system to discuss this, we wouldn't be allowed
to say anything other than what the original author
wanted us to say. No matter how open-minded someone
is, I don't want them putting words in my mouth.
Period. Even if it is "just a game."

irene

[Admiral Jota]

Irene Callaci <ical...@csupomona.edu> writes:

[snip]

>There. This thread is a perfectly good example of what
>I'm talking about. If we were all using the Monkey
>Island system to discuss this, we wouldn't be allowed
>to say anything other than what the original author
>wanted us to say. No matter how open-minded someone
>is, I don't want them putting words in my mouth.
>Period. Even if it is "just a game."

I've tried to stay out of this thread (I really have!), but I just have to
make one comment: If this discussion were in the ASK/TELL system, the only
thing anyone would have been able to do is TELL GROUP ABOUT CONVERSATION.

Anyway, I think that it really is just a matter of A) differing tastes,
and B) different methods being right for different games. I personally
think that the Monkey Island system was perfect for the Monkey Island
games, but that the ASK/TELL system is better for most IF games. I'm that
someone could write a piece of text IF in which the MI system would work
better, and I hope someone does (is anyone working on this?). That doesn't
mean it's better in general; it's just more appropriate for some games.
--
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Join at http://www.cauce.org/ -< <-= jo...@tiac.net =-> >-
\<-=- -= -=- -= -=->/

[Adam Cadre]

Samuel DAF Barlow wrote:
> We are discussing interactive-fiction; a form of interactive
> entertainment. A sitcom is not interactive. My point was that the menu
> system does not add to the interactive experience. Hence Adam's point
> that Sitcoms are funny does not provide an adequate defence for this
> type of humour being used in an interactive-"story".

CAN be funny! CAN be funny! Jeez, next thing you know people'll
start thinking I was defending the comic genius that is Urkel or
something. Sheesh!

And I believe your point about sitcoms concerned the fact that menu
options that obviously set up punch lines led to "the same type of
humor we see in sitcoms." My inference was that you were thus
deriding their comedic potential, and =that's= what I was defending:
Monkey Island, Star Control 2... these are funny, funny games, even
if your character is occasionally providing set-up lines. (And hey,
even that's not ALWAYS true -- sometimes the NPC gives the straight
line and it's one of the PC's menu options that leaves the player
convulsed in laughter.)

-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc

[Erik Max Francis]

Cardinal Teulbachs wrote:

> I was going to implement a "Monkey Island"-style menu system of
> conversation in a game I've not been working on. However, I
> eventually became less than satisfied with the concept, and thought
> about how it might be improved. My idea is to merge the menu system
> with the "ask x about y" system. So, there is only one conversational
> verb, "talk." You can either "talk to npc" or you can "talk to npc
> about <subject>." If you "talk to npc" a list of topics pops up, with
> certain keywords highlighted in each topic. You can then "talk to npc
> about <subject>," where <subject> is one of these keywords (or a
> reasonable synonym, of course).

This seems like a happy common ground for authors who don't wish to
implement a menu-based conversation engine (which would also, as some have
pointed out, possibly break the continuity of the game) and those who wish
to keep the spirit of the Infocom games.

You can also meld the two with an Ultima IV-like system, where everything
is as in Infocom, but highlighted words (as you do here) key the player
into what kinds of things they might want to say -- and if, one wished,
one could make this a toggable setting (so one wouldn't get the hints if
they didn't want to).

A good way to start would be to have a common set of topics on which all
NPCs (or nearly all) would respond to, to get the conversations going.
GREET X or ASK X ABOUT JOB or ASK X {HIS|HER} NAME would be good places to
start.

Again, the advantage of this is that it's up to the author and doesn't
break continuity. If the author wants to have what the player is supposed
to say presented to them, he/she can -- if not, then he/she doesn't have
to.

--
Erik Max Francis, &tSftDotIotE / email / m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems / web / http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, California, United States / icbm / 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
\
"The future / is right there."
/ Bill Moyers

[Andrew Plotkin]

Adam Cadre (ad...@acpub.duke.edu) wrote:

> See, this is what's so frustrating about these kinds of theoretical
> discussions. Every time someone speculates on what can or can't be
> done, my impulse is to shout, "Here, let me prove it to you! Just
> give me six months to code it all up! You just... um... wait there...
> or something..."

Yeah, but sometimes the argument goes on for six months. :-( Or, more
likely, pops up after six months to be argued out again in exactly the
same terms.

[Mary K. Kuhner]

Cardinal Teulbachs wrote:

> I was going to implement a "Monkey Island"-style menu system of
> conversation in a game I've not been working on. However, I
> eventually became less than satisfied with the concept, and thought
> about how it might be improved. My idea is to merge the menu system
> with the "ask x about y" system. So, there is only one conversational
> verb, "talk." You can either "talk to npc" or you can "talk to npc
> about <subject>." If you "talk to npc" a list of topics pops up, with
> certain keywords highlighted in each topic. You can then "talk to npc
> about <subject>," where <subject> is one of these keywords (or a
> reasonable synonym, of course).

Is the highlighting really necessary? We talked about this with
regard to "The Space Under the Window" and many players felt that
highlighting key words would disrupt the sense of reading full text.
The (snipped) examples you gave certainly hit me this way: partly
because I read the highlighting as emphasis, which throws the sentence
horribly out of whack. "Have YOU met my MOTHER?" is not the same as
"Have you met my mother?"

I don't think it's too much to expect, as TSUTW does, that the reader
should pick the key words out without an explicit indication. It may
lead to some guessing, but with only a few words visible to choose
from it shouldn't be too much. (Mind you, I kept getting stuck in
TSUTW, but it still seems doable....)

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

[John Francis]

In article <5m2e5d$f...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,

IIRC, the "Worlds of Ultima" games (which used the Ultima 6 engine)
had keyword-sensitive encounters. You could enable or disable the
highlighting of the keywords in the dialogue transcript.

--
John Francis jfra...@engr.sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc.
(415)933-8295 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd. MS 43U-991
(415)933-4692 (Fax) Mountain View, CA 94043-1389
Unsolicited electronic mail will be subject to a $100 handling fee.

[Adam Cadre]

Admiral Jota wrote:
> I'm sure that someone could write a piece of text IF in which the MI

> system would work better, and I hope someone does (is anyone working
> on this?).

Yes.

[Adam Cadre]

Irene Callaci wrote:
> With the Monkey Island multiple-choice system, the computer
> tells ME what I can say or ask.

Not exactly. It tells you what the PLAYER CHARACTER can say or ask.
YOU are free to say or ask anything you want, to anyone within earshot.

> With the type-it-in-yourself system, I tell the computer what I want
> to say.

No, you don't. You tell it what you want the PC to talk about, or ask
about, but rarely what you want the PC to say (unless all you want the
PC to say is "hello" or "give me the halibut" or some such.)

> Even though the NPC might not understand what I am trying
> to say, it *feels* like I am trying to talk to someone on
> his or her own level. If the NPC doesn't understand, I can
> rephrase it, just as I would in real life.

But you're not rephrasing what the PC has said, you're rephrasing the
command given to the parser in hopes of getting a satisfactory response.
Big difference.

> The multiple-choice method *feels* like I'm being censored
> or guided away from certain areas of inquiry. As soon as I
> want to say or ask something that has not been pre-
> programmed, I am thwarted.

There's a bit in the ZORK I hintfile that goes something like this.
"Q: It says I need a machete to get through a certain part of the
forest. Where do I get a machete? A: You can't. For the same reason,
you can't expect to walk to the airport and take a plane to London in
this game. There have to be limits." Is ZORK I "censoring" you from
flying to London? You're certainly being guided away from it.

> Rather, I feel as if someone (the programmer? the NPC? the
> government?) has decided that certain areas of conversation
> are taboo, and that I will NOT be allowed even to ask.

Crossposted to alt.conspiracy.black.helicopters.

Seriously, though, I don't see much virtue in the "freedom" to type
things the parser has no chance of understanding... and someone (Joe
Mason?) has provided a number of examples of questions that simply
cannot be adequately dealt with by the ask/tell interface.

> It's almost like a press conference where the questions and answers
> are already scripted. Even though it looks like a free and open
> exchange is taking place, it's NOT.

Absolutely every single response in every piece of IF ever written
has been "already scripted."

> There. This thread is a perfectly good example of what
> I'm talking about. If we were all using the Monkey
> Island system to discuss this, we wouldn't be allowed
> to say anything other than what the original author
> wanted us to say.

And if we were using the ask/tell interface, you wouldn't be able
to say anything more complex than >TELL NEWSGROUP ABOUT CONVERSATION.

> No matter how open-minded someone is, I don't want them putting words
> in my mouth.

It's not your mouth. It's the PC's mouth.

> Period. Even if it is "just a game."

Elsewhere on this thread, Mary Kuhner posted a great article in which
she wrote: "In my experience, there are several different virtues which

a game can have. Often they are partly mutually incompatible, and one

must choose which to prioritize. [...] If you value sounding like a real

conversation, you'll dislike ask/tell. On the other hand, the menu

system puts a low value on the illusion of free choices." Your post
highlights yet another point of difference: some people prefer close
identification with the PC, while others (and I'm one of these others)
prefer to think of the PC as more of a puppet that I'm maneuvering
through an ultimately artificial world. (There's nothing intrinsically
wrong with artifice, after all.) As such, I don't mind menu
conversation in that I have no problem with the notion that while =I=
may have lots of things I want to say, my =character= may only be able
to come up with four or five things to say at any given time.
Especially if they're as funny as the lines in Monkey Island or
Star Control 2.

[Kathleen Fischer]

Adam Cadre wrote:
> There's a bit in the ZORK I hintfile that goes something like this.
> "Q: It says I need a machete to get through a certain part of the
> forest. Where do I get a machete? A: You can't. For the same reason,
> you can't expect to walk to the airport and take a plane to London in
> this game. There have to be limits." Is ZORK I "censoring" you from
> flying to London? You're certainly being guided away from it.

Yes, but you are still left with a glimmer of hope that a machete
*might* turn up and you can then go into the forest. With a menu system
you know all the possibilities right at the start. It's like hanging a
sign on the forest saying "Decoration only"... kinda takes the fun out
out if it (for me, at least). Of course, I also hate the "That is only
scenery." message for the very same reason.

> Seriously, though, I don't see much virtue in the "freedom" to type
> things the parser has no chance of understanding...

I suppose it depends on whether you are playing for the journey or the
destination. I enjoy the journey - taking time to look at the scenery
and type weird things in just to see what happens. It doesn't really
matter to me if I make it to the end, so long as the journey is
pleasant. By giving me an up front listing of what my options are, I
think it detracts from the journey, no matter how cleverly worded they
may be. Would XYZZY be as "famous" if it was just another phrase in a
menu?

Just my $0.02(US)

Kathleen

--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfischer@x_greenhouse.llnl.gov (Remove 'x_' before replying) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **

[Russell Glasser]

> >>It is not just a matter of
> >>subjective personal opinion.
> >

> >I strongly disagree.
>
> I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

Oh YEAH? Well how appropriate! You fight like a cow!

(I'm sorry, but I've been waiting for a really long time to stick that
into this thread somewhere.

[Big Mad Drongo]

Richard G Clegg (rg...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
: Conversation in IF is, generally, pretty limited simply
: because the author can only cover such a small portion of the possible
: choices.

Um...

Take, for example, the game I'm working on at the moment. You can ask one
of the central characters about virtually anything in the game, and a good
number of things that aren't in the game, and most things will get you
some form of response. Let's say for the sake of argument that we end up
with sixty things you can ask about (I'm expecting it to be more than
this, but still...) Using the ASK ABOUT, TELL ABOUT system this works
fine, but under the MI-style system you end up with a menu of fifty or so
possible opening lines. I know which one I'd rather be faced with...

Adrian

[James Cole]

Barbara Robson <rob...@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au> wrote:

>jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:

>|My example wasn't the best to illustrate what I was talking about.
>
>|That aside, the simple fact is, there are many obvious, simple, and valid
>|questions which the ask/tell style can't handle. *At least not in a
>|general way*. It is very important that they do handle them in a general
>|way.
>|Am I going to bother explaining this or giving examples? No, not at the
>|moment. Think about it.
>
> "Ask James Cole about explanation"
> "Mr Cole, tell me about examples"
>
>I cannot think of any such examples myself. Admittedly, it takes a lot
>of work on the part of the IF-author to code in all the possibilities,
>and there will always be possible questions that are overlooked, but
>how is this any less true of a menu-based system? As a player, I'd
>rather ask a question and have the NPC answer with an evasion,
>incomprehension or admission of ignorance (the default for the ask/tell
>system) than be unable to ask the question at all (the default for a
>menu-based system, ala Monkey Island et al). I know it's a matter
>of preference, but I feel that my own preference is perfectly valid.

I've replied to points like yours many times before. Instead of replying
to them again, I want to ask you a question. Have you played something
like Monkey Island (not counting just a cursory look at it)?

>As for your point (I think it was yours and not someone else's) about
>the actual phrasing of the question helping with characterisation;

Nup. I didn't say anything about that.

> this
>is true, but can just as easily be built into a more traditional ask/tell
>conversation. For example:
>
> > TELL DOCTOR ABOUT HEADACHE
>
> "Doctor!" you cry, dramatically, "I've had the most unbearable
> headache all day. I'm sure it must be a brain-tumour."
>
> The doctor calmly reassures you that a tumour is most unlikely
> in your case.
>
>The problem with this is that it does give the feeling of putting words
>into your mouth, but no more so than if the phrase were an option on a
>menu.

Not true. But, I'm not going to give my reason for this _another_ time;
it's already in other posts.

James Cole
----------
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Big Mad Drongo]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
: My example wasn't the best to illustrate what I was talking about.

: That aside, the simple fact is, there are many obvious, simple, and valid
: questions which the ask/tell style can't handle. *At least not in a
: general way*. It is very important that they do handle them in a general
: way.

: Am I going to bother explaining this or giving examples? No, not at the
: moment. Think about it.

Sort of suggests to me you can't think of any. Not that it's particularly
important - you can work your way round most of the problems you encounter
with the ASK ABOUT, TELL ABOUT system more easily than with the MI system,
simply because it's a lot more flexible.

: > In Ask/Tell I-F, the player can be suprised by
: >an answer.

: And please, do tell me why this can't happen in Monkey Island style.
: You can't.

It can, of course, but it's a lot easier in ASK/TELL, because you don't
know that the author expects you to ask the question. Some of the best
lines in ASK/TELL can be where you ask a character about something you
don't expect them to know about, or say something odd to them and you
actually get a response. You just can't have this in MI style, because you
can *only* follow the conversation path that the author has laid out for
you.

: > I find it strange that Adam Cadre supports the MI style as a
: >way of putting the player in character when his own game, I-0, is a
: >brilliant example of how to do this outside of MI menus;

: perhaps he's a little more open minded?

Perhaps he's just ready to experiment and be wrong once in a while... :-)

: > like when I
: >asked to "open boot" and was told that my character would call it a
: >trunk. The large number of humorous responses to my commands also help
: >tell the player who he/she is without hitting them over the head.

: Relevance to you point?

: and are you implying that the monkey island style really forces it upon
: you?

Yes. Of course it does. Because with the monkey island style I have a very
limited number of choices at all points in the game. In command line IF I
can type absolutely anything I want, and provided the author has second
guessed me I will get a response out of it. It gives a feeling of far
greater freedom. The point above wasn't quite as relevant as it might have
been, but had it been an ASK situation...

> ASK NEIL ABOUT BOOT
Neil's brow furrows for a moment as he tries to work out what you mean.
Then it dawns upon him. "Oh, you mean the trunk," he says with a smile. "I
always lock it when I leave the car, ever since that time someone stole my
laptop and the insurance company refused to pay up because it wasn't
locked. Here, take the keys..."

> UNDO
[last move undone]

> ASK NEIL ABOUT TRUNK
"I always lock it when I leave the car," Neil explains, "ever since that
time someone stole my laptop and the insurance company refused to pay up
because it wasn't locked. Here, take the keys..."

Maybe rather a subtle difference, but it's the subtleties that really make
IF great most of the time.

[Pirate Pete snipped]
: By itself, this example looks quite convincing. Step back and consider it
: within the context of a real game and things change. It doesn't work like
: this.

Whyever not? I've played games even back on the 8-bit BBC Micro that had
this sort of ASK/TELL interface. Hey, I even wrote a couple of them...

: >The problem with menus is that they run against the rest of the game,
: >they are an artifice which destroys the suspension-of-willing-disbelief.

: exaplain exactly how and why they do this?

They break the flow of the game. You have to change the way you're
thinking about the input, from a "What do I do now?" to a "Which option do
I choose?". You have to change the way your hands hover over the keyboard.
Little things, but it does break the flow. And as a lot of people says, it
gives the impression of constraint. What if I want to ask Pirate Pete
about something that isn't on the list? At least if I was using ASK/TELL I
could do, even though the response would probably be a stock one.

: >If the whole game were menu-driven it would be OK.

: why exactly?

See above. He's wrong, of course. :-) I've played entirely menu-driven
adventure games, and without exception they were dire. The menu-driven
conversation system works quite well in a point-and-click adventure,
though, such as Simon the Sorceror. In fact a command-line interface here
would be seen as out of place. Horses for courses, and all that.

: > Whereas the ASk,TELL
: >convention is part of the parser which we use in the other parts of the
: >game.

: Your drawing simplistic conclusions.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Also he's right. Are you denying that the ASK/TELL
convention uses the parser we use in other parts of the game?

: >One last thing, as regards MI, etc. from my "experience." Although
: >Cadre, et al, claim that MI menu's are interactive I have found that of
: >the, say, 4 options only 1 is neccessary to the game.

: That is wrong. Simple observation or usage can disprove that.

It tends to be the case, though. Of four options, one will get you out of
the conversation, one will get the information you need (or move the
conversation on a bit) and the other two are just there to set up bad
jokes. Of course it's an exaggeration, but there is a kernel of truth to
it.

Of course, somebody's about to point out that the same holds true for
ASK/TELL - only one or two combinations will be necessary to complete the
game, and the others are just filler (or set things up for bad jokes). Of
course that's true, and until we have fully intelligent NPC's we're going
to have to live with that. (When we do have fully intelligent NPC's we may
have to ask ourselves if it's murder to type QUIT, of course. :-)

: > As such the player
: >is allowed to click through the other options, always returning to the 4
: >initial choices until he picks the "right" one.

: Untrue.

But again, it tends to be the case, even in very high quality
point-and-click games.

: Throughout your post you've given simplistic reasons. You've given
: statements, not reasons. If you want to prove anything you've got to do
: more than that.

Throughout your post you've not given reasons at all. You've just accused
people of giving simplistic reasons. The obvious thing for you to do would
be to stop criticising other people's views on this, but to sit down and
write a game in Inform or TADS with menu-driven conversation, which makes
use of all the subtleties you seem to think menu-driven conversation can
provide. Then if it turns out to be really good we can all admit we were
wrong, and everyone will abandon the ASK/TELL convention and a new age of
interactive fiction will dawn.

Adrian

[Adam Cadre]

Liza Daly wrote:
> Right now, I strongly prefer the Infocom style (which includes more
> commands than ASK/TELL, btw). Show me a good implementation of a
> menu-based system, and I might change my mind.

See, this is what's so frustrating about these kinds of theoretical

discussions. Every time someone speculates on what can or can't be
done, my impulse is to shout, "Here, let me prove it to you! Just
give me six months to code it all up! You just... um... wait there...
or something..."

-----

[Samuel DAF Barlow]

On 22 May 1997, Big Mad Drongo wrote:

> : Throughout your post you've given simplistic reasons. You've given
> : statements, not reasons. If you want to prove anything you've got to do
> : more than that.
>
> Throughout your post you've not given reasons at all. You've just accused
> people of giving simplistic reasons. The obvious thing for you to do would
> be to stop criticising other people's views on this, but to sit down and
> write a game in Inform or TADS with menu-driven conversation, which makes
> use of all the subtleties you seem to think menu-driven conversation can
> provide. Then if it turns out to be really good we can all admit we were
> wrong, and everyone will abandon the ASK/TELL convention and a new age of
> interactive fiction will dawn.
>
> Adrian
>

Phew; thanks! I was beginning to think I *was* wrong after that
assault.

Sam.

[Russell Glasser]

Paul Francis Gilbert wrote:
>
> Another good example was Simon the Sorcerer. One of favorate moments in the
> game: Wizards: "What makes you think we're wizards". One of simons responses:
> "Because when I move the mouse cursor on you it says wizards."
>
> Well, that and Doctor von Jones trying to find the missing link between man
> and vegetable. Simon response: "You mean Dan Quale?"
>
> >I think there's definitely room in IF for this type of game. I'd love
> >to play a text-based one.
>

And let's not forget some of the gems in Legend's "Deathgate."

Haplo (you): Who are you?
Zifnab: I already told you, I'm James Bond!
Haplo: No you're not, those kids told me you were called Zifnab.
Although I'm not sure what kind of a name Zifnab is.
Zifnab: Oh yeah? Well what kind of a name is Haplo?
Haplo: Hey! How did you know my name was Haplo?
Zifnab: Your name is Haplo? Pleased to meet you, I'm Zifnab!
Haplo: You didn't answer my question, how did you know my name was
Haplo?
Zifnab: Well, you just told me your name was Haplo when you introduced
yourself! You'd better start paying attention to the conversation, my boy, if
you want to learn anything.

Balthazar: I've never seen you around before, where did you say you
were from?
Haplo: Oh, I'm from, you know... Kairn Klosteria.
Balthazar: Klosteria? Hmmm. Strange, that's not on any of my maps.
Haplo: Gee, did I say Kairn Klosteria? I meant Flort... wrmpth...
sinj -- er, ah -- thim. Surely THAT'S on your maps?
Balthazar (pregnant pause): Oh yes, of course.

(Note to purists: no, those WEREN'T the only conversation options
available, there were plenty of other branches along the way. Those were just
some of my favorites.)

[Andrew Plotkin]

I am so, so tempted to change the subject line to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

--Z

(Apologies to those who don't keep track of U.S. military policy idiocy.)

[Giles Boutel]

Big Mad Drongo <A.G.J...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5lsoov$o...@mercury.dur.ac.uk>...

>
> Indeed - I think you've hit the nail right on the head there. The
> menu-driven system is fine (and even preferable) in games like Monkey
> Island because it fits in with the point-and-click interface of the game
> as a whole. But when we're talking about interactive fiction such as
games
> produced in Inform then it really does stand out like a sore thumb. Any
> game that offers me a menu as part of the main game had better have a
good
> reason for doing so, or I'll just stop playing it - it just doesn't feel
> right in context. The only place I've found menus to work in text
> adventures is for the help system provided by Infocom (and similar)
games.
>
> Adrian
>

I was thinking about this, and realised that there are many times when I
wish an infocom type game would come up with a menu, such as situations
like:

>get ball

Which ball would you like to get,
1) the happy fun ball
2) the unhappy fun ball
3) the unhappy miserable ball.

>3

With a sly dig at its ancestry, you pick up the unhappy miserable ball.

This is purely a speed thing, as I get sick of typing adjectives
repeatedly. I did try to code this once, but it was beyond my limited
abilities.

-Giles

[Cameron Young]

Has anyone ever played HELL? This game uses Monkey Island style
conversations, but it also allows a small amount of personal input. Of
course they are mainly small things, like answering a question about a
password, or saying the magic word. Being a newer game much of it is
spoken by the voice actors as well which adds to the natural feel of the
conversation, but can slow everything right down if you have to say the
same thing to get a choice where you can change the course of the
conversation.

That is the only real problem I see with MI style interaction. If you
decide that you are following the wrong line of questioning you may have
to go through 4 or 5 series of back and forth questions and answers.
Which depending on the style of game can be very annoying.

e.g. Talking to the 3 Pirate bosses in the start of Monkey Island, they
spend a lot of time waving there arms around.

(I'm calling it Monkey Island style because I know James Cole and he might
beat me up if I say Menu style.)

[James Cole]

ld...@bu.edu (Liza Daly) wrote:

>James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
>: Irene Callaci <ical...@csupomona.edu> wrote:
>
>: >Sorry, but I've played Monkey Island, and I much prefer the ask/tell
>: >system used in most text adventures over the multiple-choice system.
>: >In Monkey Island, I found myself cycling through all the
>: > conversational possibilities to
>: >see if I could tell which one was "correct." This pretty much ruined
>: >the atmosphere of the game for me.
>

Here's an important part of what I was saying that Liza snipped:

I'd be interested in knowing why you used the system like you say. Did

you have a fair bit of experience with the ask/tell style before using

the Monkey Island style?

>: To be honest, your experience seems a bit strange to me. It looks as if

>: you were just trying to find the "right answer" -- just trying to get from
>: A to B, and not stopping to look at the scenery along the way.
>
>: >This issue seems to be one of those subjective personal opinion things
>: >that can become almost religious in its intensity.
>
>: There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but

>: there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of
>: subjective personal opinion.
>

>Let's see. You and she have played the same game, and reached
>different conclusions. This strongly suggests nothing more than a
>personal opinion.
>

Did I say I was talking about her? No.

People may prefer or like something. That does not mean that it can't be
flawed.

>As an author, I'm going to code a game in the style of my preference
>(or not, if I'm in the mood to experiment). As a player, I'm going to
>most enjoy a game that follows my preferred style (but am certainly
>open-minded enough to try something different).

Sure, but that's not what the discussion has been about.

>Right now, I strongly prefer the Infocom style (which includes more
>commands than ASK/TELL, btw). Show me a good implementation of a

>menu-based system, and I might change my mind. But I doubt it.

The best implementation, IMO, is Monkey Island.

This means that you haven't played a good implementation -- something like
Monkey Island?

Most people's complaints about it seem to stem from just looking at the
concept, and not actually having use it. This is very evident in many of
the things expressed.

Another thing which I want to point out. People who are used to the
ask/tell system approach the Monkey Island system from the ask/tell point
of view. That experience with the ask/tell clouds your perception of the
MI system. This is also very evident from things expressed in this
discussion.

IMO, the opposite, however, is not true. Experience with the Monkey Island
style serves to highlight deficiencies with the ask/tell style.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

Irene Callaci <ical...@csupomona.edu> wrote:

>OK, let me try this one more time:
>

>[reasons for disliking monkey island style snipped.]

>There. This thread is a perfectly good example of what
>I'm talking about.

I think you need to read my post again.
How about answering my question?

>If we were all using the Monkey
>Island system to discuss this, we wouldn't be allowed
>to say anything other than what the original author

>wanted us to say. No matter how open-minded someone

>is, I don't want them putting words in my mouth.

>Period. Even if it is "just a game."

Simple answer: And how about if we were using the ask/tell system.

ask rec.arts.int-fiction about NPC conversation
tell James about disklike-for-monkey-island-style-conversation

you can't give reasons, etc. using this style.

Besides all that, a discussion on a newsgroup can't be *simply* compared
with a discussion between the player and an NPC.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[James Cole]

mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:

>jrc...@ozemail.com.au (James Cole) writes:
>
>>There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but
>>there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of

^^^^^^^^

>>subjective personal opinion.
>
>I strongly disagree.

I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. Have a look through the
discussion. There have been *many* arguments and points raised which have
nothing to do with personal opinion.

>In my experience, there are several different virtues which a game
>can have. Often they are partly mutually incompatible, and one must

>choose which to prioritize. One's priorities are, precisely, subjective
>personal opinion.

Another thing to consider are the disadvantages. Disadvantages are more
important. If something is good and another thing is better, then you may
choose one over the other for some personal perference. However, if one
something has bad flaws and another thing has minor flaws, you're more
likely to choose the one with the minor flaws.

But, I know what your saying and I agree with it. But, what we are seeing
in this discussion aren't "proper" personal opinons. The explanation of
this is further down.

>The ask/tell system puts a low value on "sounding like a real
>converation" compared to the menu system; the things the speaker says
>are *very* flat and dull. You can jazz them up a little:
>
>>ASK SALESMAN ABOUT SPOT
>
>"How about that spot, huh? You trying to hide something from me?"
>you say accusingly.
>
>but this kind of hybrid risks inheriting the problems of the menu
>system without its virtues, since you're not allowing the player
>any choice about the flavor-text at all. (The player may have had
>no idea that just asking about the spot would produce such a rude,
>accusatory statement.)
>

>If you value sounding like a real conversation, you'll dislike ask/tell.
>

There is a lot more to it than that. Have a read through all the
discussion.

>On the other hand, the menu system puts a low value on the illusion of
>free choices.

That's the wrong way to think of it. It's just not as clear cut as this.

> As you've argued, this is always an illusion; but but

>much of IF is an illusion, and how the illusions are handled is
>important.

True. But does this statement really mean much concerning the two systems?
No. The MI style doesn't give you the illusion that you can *ask about
anything*. However, it doesn't give you the impression that it's really
narrow and confined either. Despite only giving you a set of choices at
each point in the conversation, it can give a real impression of not being
narrow or limited.

You may like having illusiong of free choices, but with it come many
problems.

I believe the more important thing is not restrictions on things you can
ask about, but restrictions on content. In this situation the MI style
wins hands down. In this situation the ask/tell style feels very
restrictive. There may be an illusion of free chioces but there certainly
isn't a illusion of free content.

But with all that said, yes, _ultimately it does come down to personal
opinion_. It's just I don't think people fully understand the Monkey
Island system, or their opinions of it are clouded by their experience with
the ask/tell system. The opinions expressed in this thread have more to do
with misunderstanding than with true personal preference.

>A player who prioritizes the sense of free choice over the
>sense of real conversation will therefore tend to prefer ask/tell. (I
>believe this is what Zarf has been trying to say.)

It is no way near as simple as this.

>Both very sensible opinions, but there is no way to objectively choose
>one, because the core issue--which is more important to me, the illusion
>of real conversation or the illusion of free action?--is subjective
>and different players will have different answers.

It's not as simple as you suggest, there is so much more to it.

>The field would be richer for the presence of games that worked both
>ways, so please do pursue this.

> But not, I beg you, with the mindset
>that there is some objective rule that will prove one set of priorities
>correct and the other somehow not.

I'm sorry, but that's not what I'm on about.

> All that accomplishes is blinding
>you to other peoples' experiences, never a useful thing.

---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au

[Richard G Clegg]

Nulldogma (null...@aol.com) wrote:
: Adam C. wrote:
: > Ah, but what if 1, 2 and 3 all lead to an enigmatic grunt, but at the
: > end of the game, after you've had all kinds of adventures in the
: > meantime, your choice turns out to be the factor that determines
: > whether the NPC tries to kill you, make a pass at you, or both?

: >KILL AUTHOR
: Enraged at how a seemingly harmless action in the game winds up killing
: you 200 turns later, you fly at the author in a rage, plunging your elvish
: sword of great antiquity into his sadistic little heart.

: ***YOUR SCORE HAS JUST GONE DOWN BY 50 POINTS, BUT YOU DON'T CARE***

Ach now, we've put up with far more sadistic - remember the
hitch-hikers microscopic space fleet where _failure_ to do a seemingly
insignificant action lead to your death several hundred turns later?

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: ric...@manor.york.ac.uk
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

[Mary K. Kuhner]

In article <3384D1...@acpub.duke.edu> ad...@acpub.duke.edu writes:

>Your post
>highlights yet another point of difference: some people prefer close
>identification with the PC, while others (and I'm one of these others)
>prefer to think of the PC as more of a puppet that I'm maneuvering
>through an ultimately artificial world. (There's nothing intrinsically
>wrong with artifice, after all.) As such, I don't mind menu
>conversation in that I have no problem with the notion that while =I=
>may have lots of things I want to say, my =character= may only be able
>to come up with four or five things to say at any given time.

And, conversely, someone who prefers strong PC identification should
prefer ask/tell, no? Because for them monkey style has a huge
drawback....

It's actually a bit more complex than this. The same issue (degree of
identification with PC) comes up regularly in roleplaying games, and a
good deal of thought's been put into it. James Wallis, in the journal
_Interactive Fantasy_, describes four modes of relating to character:

--as a playing piece being manuvered through challenges
--as a projection of the player into the game situation
--as an independent personality who behaves according to his own
personality
--as an independent personality who in a sense possesses the player,
so that the player imaginatively becomes the other person

(The fourth is difficult to explain. Wallis compared it to Mask
acting.)

Generally speaking, it would seem that either A/T or monkey are suited
for the first mode: A/T might be a bit better as it allows the
appearance of more possible "moves" and discourages certain kinds of
"cheating" like backing up to try all possible paths. A/T is
almost surely, as you say, better for the second mode, where the player
imagines himself as being the PC: having the game put words into
your mouth is distracting. Monkey has some serious advantages for the
third mode, because it gives the PC lots of chance to express his
author-determined personality. One might compare to the way that
Christabel, in _Christminster_, occasionally refuses to do things
because they're gender- or station-inappropriate. This is easy to
do non-obtrusively with menus, harder with free conversation.

I don't think we know much about the fourth mode in IF. I suspect it's
not achieved very often (it's not exactly common in roleplaying). In
the one example I know of, the Mask illusion was quite fragile. Having
the author suggest actions or dialog for the PC worked beautifully just
as long as the author was in *perfect* accord with the player's
conception of the character, and was horrendously annoying as soon as
any discrepancy occured. This sets the game a challenge that is
unlikely to be tractable in practice.

So the main choices for IF would seem to be PC as game piece, PC as
surrogate for self, PC as independent character. The author may
prefer to priviledge one view; in that case s/he should choose tools
accordingly. _Christminster_ is a nice example of priviledging PC
as independent character. You might try rewriting some of
Christminster's dialog as monkey-style and see how it looks.
However, a game with different priorities should very sensibly
use other tools.

By the way, saying "People who learn A/T first are prejudiced because
it's their first system; people who learn monkey first aren't
prejudiced, they're just truthfully seeing the flaws of A/T" just
makes you look silly. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the
gander. You're essentially arguing that the other side is blinded
by their first experiences, but somehow your side is immune to this
effect. Sensible people are unlikely to buy this claim.

Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu

[Andrew Plotkin]

James Cole (jrc...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
> >>There is a lot of personal opinion and subjectivity in this discussion, but
> >>there's a lot more to it than just that. It is not just a matter of
> ^^^^^^^^
> >>subjective personal opinion.
> >
> >I strongly disagree.

> I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

That's your opinion.

--Z

[Irene Callaci]

James Cole wrote:
> I think you need to read my post again.
> How about answering my question?

Sure, I'll try. I assume you mean your original question, which was:

>I prefer Monkey Island style NCP conversations (A while back I uploaded a
>utility for implementing it onto GMD - plug!). Without saying why I think
>this form is better than the 'ask <x> about <y>' form, I'd be interested in
>the what you think about each of the two forms. What do you think is
>better/worse about either of them?

I must have misunderstood your question. I THOUGHT you were asking for
our opinions about which style we preferred. Several of us have
expressed
our opinions, and you have proceded to tell us all that we are wrong.

Actually, since I enjoy seeing new developments in the interactive
fiction field, I'm very interested in trying out the Monkey Island
multiple-choice method you've developed to see if it works for me.
However, since I have not particularly enjoyed that type of NPC
interaction in the past (yes, I have played Monkey Island), I am
suspending judgment until I can play a text adventure that
incorporates it.

Until then, I hope that none of us will get stuck blindly defending
a position that is based on personal preference.

As a game developer, you are free to implement whichever style of
NPC conversation you choose. But when you ask for opinions, don't
be surprised when you get ones that differ from your own. I, for
one, am glad that not everyone sees things my way.

> >If we were all using the Monkey
> >Island system to discuss this, we wouldn't be allowed
> >to say anything other than what the original author
> >wanted us to say. No matter how open-minded someone
> >is, I don't want them putting words in my mouth.
> >Period. Even if it is "just a game."
>
> Simple answer: And how about if we were using the ask/tell system.

If we were using the ask/tell system, I could ASK anything I
want. You wouldn't have to answer, just as an NPC doesn't have
to answer. But I am not an NPC when I play a game. The Monkey
Island style of conversation treats me as if I were a character
inside the game instead of ME.

> Besides all that, a discussion on a newsgroup can't be *simply*
> compared with a discussion between the player and an NPC.

Aaahhhh....but the illusion of being able to type in anything I
want and have it answered (or not answered, as the case may be)
is certainly common to both the newsgroup discussion and the
ask/tell method of NPC conversation. It is definitely NOT the
illusion conveyed by the Monkey Island multiple-choice system.

In a way, I think that the ask/tell style of i-f is a reasonably
good example of the Turing test, even if the implementation is
not convincing - yet. I can't see how the Monkey Island method
would ever evoke the sense that I was "talking" to another human
being, no matter how well it was implemented.

irene

[Miron Schmidt]

James Cole wrote, replying to various comments by Mary Kuhner:

> I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. Have a look through the
> discussion. There have been *many* arguments and points raised which have
> nothing to do with personal opinion.
>

> There is a lot more to it than that. Have a read through all the
> discussion.
>

> It is no way near as simple as this.
>

> It's not as simple as you suggest, there is so much more to it.
>

> I'm sorry, but that's not what I'm on about.

Mind you, all those quotes are from one single post!

And in the midst of it, there was this:

> But with all that said, yes, _ultimately it does come down to personal
> opinion_. It's just I don't think people fully understand the Monkey
> Island system, or their opinions of it are clouded by their experience with
> the ask/tell system. The opinions expressed in this thread have more to do
> with misunderstanding than with true personal preference.

So, uh, great. You're telling us that you write enlightening lines such as
the ones quoted above because we are *too stupid* to understand your point of
view?
Cool.

Miron.

[Richard G Clegg]

Big Mad Drongo (A.G.J...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:

: Richard G Clegg (rg...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
: : Conversation in IF is, generally, pretty limited simply
: : because the author can only cover such a small portion of the possible
: : choices.

: Um...

: Take, for example, the game I'm working on at the moment. You can ask one
: of the central characters about virtually anything in the game, and a good
: number of things that aren't in the game, and most things will get you
: some form of response. Let's say for the sake of argument that we end up

: with sixty things you can ask about (I'm expecting it to be more than
: this, but still...) Using the ASK ABOUT, TELL ABOUT system this works

: fine, but under the MI-style system you end up with a menu of fifty or so
: possible opening lines. I know which one I'd rather be faced with...

I guess we just have different opinions about this - I think sixty
responses just isn't enough for me as a player to actually try talking
to a "character" about various things because at sixty responses most of
the stuff I try won't be covered. That's why, in almost every IF game
I play, I don't talk much with the characters unless I am absolutely
forced to by a puzzle. The major characters in MI-style games seem to
have far more than 60 different responses depending on where you are in
the game tree (not on the same menu as you state above). In the type of
situation you're describing where you have a character with sixty
reponses, the chances are that apart from ASK (character) ABOUT (object
in game) I'll very rarely actually hit one of your responses so any
attempt I have to converse with your 60 response character is a bit
futile unless I am prepared to do a state space search to ask about the
objects that character particularly wants me to know about

I'll tell you what, here's the test. Imagine you are a play-tester
of your game with a desperate urge to interact with your 60 response
character. Can you give 10 convincing player inputs that a player who
hadn't seen your source code might type and get a useful response.

Let's take an example, to be really unfair, I'll pick on a game that I
haven't really played (coz I wasn't very good at it and I got distracted
by playing Infocom games instead) Christminster, which happens to be on
my SGI Indy at the moment:

8<--

Chapel Street

The gate is closed.

>n
You turn right into Bridge Street.

Bridge Street

A police constable stands here, watching the busker.

A busking magician stands behind a folding trestle table, exhorting passers-by
to come and watch his tricks. On the table are three inverted cups
(one red, onegreen and one blue).

"Nothing under the blue cup," says the busker, lifting it up to show you.

[OK, good, at least the busker is talking to us]

>busker, hello
"Hello," says the busker. "How pleasant it is to have a lady as
beautiful as you in my audience."

[Fair response]

>busker, thank you
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

[OK, I didn't expect a response to that really]

>ask busker about cups
"Try looking under it," says the busker.

[Well, he said something, nothing very useful, but something]

>examine busker
He's a tall gangling man, with long and nimble fingers. He is carrying a black
rod, and wearing a purple cape.

"Now," says the busker, "to demonstrate that I'm not using any prepared
equipment, I'd like to do this trick with an object from the audience."

>ask busker about rod
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

>ask busker about cape
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

[Hmm.... they were described as something he had.]

>ask busker about college
"You want to know how to get into Biblioll College on a Sunday? I
suppose you'll have to beg, borrow, or steal a key from someone."

[Actually, I was quite impressed that this had been included.]

>ask busker about key
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

>ask busker about gate
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

[But it soon breaks down again.]

>busker, bye bye
The busker doesn't quite understand what you want.

8<---

I continued for a dozen questions or so and only found two more
response (The busker says he never reveals his secrets if you ask him
more about the cups and complains about the policeman).

OK, I'm being unfair picking on what is probably a quite minor
character. But I could only find half a dozen repsonses that the busker
has to questions - he probably has many more but unless I'm unduly
patient I'm unlikely to come across them. There's no way I'm going to
be particularly encouraged to talk to characters further in this game
because of the responses I found none of them (with the possible
exception of the key one) seemed particularly helpful - unless I were so
dense as to misunderstand the cups trick.

8<---

I did get some small amusement from:

>busker, I have no interest in the college
"You want to know how to get into Biblioll College on a Sunday? I
suppose you'llhave to beg, borrow, or steal a key from someone."

>busker, you're just pre-programmed to respond to the word college
"You want to know how to get into Biblioll College on a Sunday? I
suppose you'llhave to beg, borrow, or steal a key from someone."

8<---

No offence meant to whoever programmed Christminster, characters in
any IF game I wrote would be at least as dense if not more. I seem to
recall that the bird-seed seller from Trinity had about 200 different
responses (from an interview with the author) - I never even talked to
her that much - I probably saw about 3 of these responses before getting
bored of searching for the right words. People complain about guess
the verb puzzles but seem willing to accept that guess the nouns is the
be all and end all of IF conversation.

A good solution is the mixed system that someone (I forget who)
suggested. That way those who like the purity of the ask/tell system
can use it and those who'd rather actually know which conversation areas
it's worth trying can have that. Incidentally, a lot of people seem to
have forgotten that menu based conversation is always context sensitive
so the choices you get in the conversation depend on waht your character
has seen previously and what has been said before.

In conclusion: I remember with extreme pleasure many of the
conversations from Monkey Island (particularly the sword-fights) and Day
of the Tentacle (particularly where Hoagie is suggesting flag designs
for the new Stars'n'Stripes) - I remember with extreme pleasure many
characters from IF (notably Floyd, of course, and Black from Jigsaw) but
I can't remember more than three things I said to either of them that
they responded to in a particularly interesting way... I think it would
be good for IF if there were some way to rectify this situation.

[Adam Cadre]

Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
> [long, insightful reply to my post snipped]

> By the way, saying "People who learn A/T first are prejudiced because
> it's their first system; people who learn monkey first aren't
> prejudiced, they're just truthfully seeing the flaws of A/T" just
> makes you look silly. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the
> gander. You're essentially arguing that the other side is blinded
> by their first experiences, but somehow your side is immune to this
> effect.

I'm arguing no such thing. James Cole is. Please check your
attributions.