[Inform] Alternatives to N S W E....?
Don Rae
own designs, is the constant need to say things like this, in interactive
fiction:
"To the west, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
house's airlock is open to the north. If you really want to stretch out and
relax, your personal automated massage table is to the west....".
This kind of description ruins the experience of reading the written content
at times, and I'm wondering if anyone else has found alternative, yet easy
to code ways to present this kind of directional information. Suggestions
are welcome.
I'm hoping to defeat the idea of always having to say "go west" or "se" or
whatever for object navigation. If the player is in an environment that has
no real "compass" direction, such as in a spaceship, how can one cope with
this? (It's unbelievable to me to have a "south" direction in the "Starship
Enterprise").
Thx for the feedback
- Don
Zimri
news:BxMl3.2939$k3.2...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> One thing that I'm starting to get somewhat irritated with,
especially in my
> own designs, is the constant need to say things like this, in
interactive
> fiction:
>
> "To the west, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to
your
> house's airlock is open to the north. If you really want to stretch
out and
> relax, your personal automated massage table is to the west....".
>
> This kind of description ruins the experience of reading the written
content
> at times, and I'm wondering if anyone else has found alternative,
yet easy
> to code ways to present this kind of directional information.
Suggestions
> are welcome.
In most places (outside, underground-with-compass), having compass
points is legitimate. The original Adventure assumed, but didn't say,
that you had a compass like all non-moribund cavers do (remember,
Adventure was originally a caver simulation...). In taking the compass
for granted, I fear it started a bad trend.
In a familiar environment (your house, your office, etc.), I suggest
coding in commands like "kitchen", "bathroom", "bedroom". On a ship,
code in "port", "fore", "aft" a la Cutthroats. I haven't done this yet
in Inform, but I'm under the impression that this isn't hard to do.
> I'm hoping to defeat the idea of always having to say "go west" or
"se" or
> whatever for object navigation. If the player is in an environment
that has
> no real "compass" direction, such as in a spaceship, how can one
cope with
> this? (It's unbelievable to me to have a "south" direction in the
"Starship
> Enterprise").
See comment on Cutthroats above.
I think the challenge is in defining directions when it's dark (easy;
just block them all out and add grues and pits) or when the directions
are hidden from the player's character. These would be examples:
1. Outside and overcast enough that you can't see the sun or stars
2. In a building that you don't know
3. Deep underground without a compass (a.k.a. "up the creek without a
paddle")
I'd suggest "turn left" and "go forward" commands, which might take a
bit of work.
-- Z(imri)
Nick C.
>One thing that I'm starting to get somewhat irritated with, especially in my
>own designs, is the constant need to say things like this, in interactive
>fiction:
>
>"To the west, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
>house's airlock is open to the north. If you really want to stretch out and
>relax, your personal automated massage table is to the west....".
>
>This kind of description ruins the experience of reading the written content
>at times, and I'm wondering if anyone else has found alternative, yet easy
>to code ways to present this kind of directional information. Suggestions
>are welcome.
This is covered in the DM, in section 10, "Places, scenery, directions and
the map". If you wanted to, say, replace north, south, east, and west with
fore, aft, starboard and port, you could do it like this:
Add this to Initalise():
remove n_obj; remove s_obj; remove e_obj; remove w_obj;
And define these objects in your code:
Object fore_obj "fore wall" compass
with name "fore" "wall",
article "the",
door_dir n_to,
has scenery;
Object aft_obj "aft wall" compass
with name "aft" "wall",
article "the",
door_dir s_to,
has scenery;
Object starb_obj "starboard wall" compass
with name "starboard" "wall",
article "the",
door_dir e_to,
has scenery;
Object fore_obj "port wall" compass
with name "port" "wall",
article "the",
door_dir w_to,
has scenery;
Now, whether or not you should actually do this is a different question.
Using compass directions in IF is a convention that's pretty much written
in stone. Using "fore" and "aft" and such has been done before, and it's
generally agreed that it sucks. Players are used to using compass directions,
and replacing them is just going to make your game confusing. I believe
Zarf said just the other day in a similar thread, if you're really concerned
about the PC having an uncanny sense of direction, give him a compass.
--
Nick C. -- E-Mail address contains a spamblock - remove IFRICKINHATESPAM
<nic...@IFRICKINHATESPAMio.com>
Nick C.
>This is covered in the DM, in section 10, "Places, scenery, directions and
>the map". If you wanted to, say, replace north, south, east, and west with
>fore, aft, starboard and port, you could do it like this:
Oh, one more thing: if you define the constant WITHOUT_DIRECTIONS, the 10
default directions are removed, and you can code your own replacements.
If you really want to do this (and I suggest that you shouldn't), read the
DM for further info.
David Glasser
> I'm hoping to defeat the idea of always having to say "go west" or "se" or
> whatever for object navigation. If the player is in an environment that has
> no real "compass" direction, such as in a spaceship, how can one cope with
> this? (It's unbelievable to me to have a "south" direction in the "Starship
> Enterprise").
There are a few ways to get around this. First of all, you can
completely ignore direction and make all movement commands be something
like ENTER KITCHEN. This is used in IN THE END and the white scenes of
PHOTOPIA. However, those games had limited movement in any one "scene";
having a huge map (the entire Enterprise, for example) and only using
ENTER ROOMNAME can be very disorienting.
On ships and such, you can use AFT and STARBOARD and such. (This was
actually used once; a scene in Curses, I think.) This is simple to
implement in Inform; define NO_DIRECTIONS and then define compass
objects in the Compass object.
One could use LEFT, RIGHT, FORWARD, and BACKWARDS, and have TURN
commands to turn the player. Of course, any descriptive text would have
to change based where the player is facing.
To tell the truth, it's often difficult to understand the layout of a
room described in text without some form of regular compass.
--
David Glasser: gla...@iname.com | http://www.uscom.com/~glasser/
DGlasser@ifMUD:orange.res.cmu.edu 4001 | raif FAQ http://come.to/raiffaq
'No, GLK is spelled "G L K". What is this Java you speak of?'
--Joe.Mason on that portable thing on rec.arts.int-fiction
Shannon Klimek
starboard, and port' are a good idea...one I wish was as easy to implement
as Nick C. implies.
Actually, in an adventure where you wish to use both cardinal directions and
nautical directions I prefer to make the one letter alternatives
available...n,s,e,w,ne,se,sw,nw,u,d...this becomes problematic in Inform
when you define nautical directions because of the following:
...fore,f,starboard,sb,port,p,aft,a.
the "a" that should be logically used for "aft" as a shortcut must have an
alternative because the interpreter thinks it is merely an article and
complains. Is there a way to make it both? To do without the shortcuts is
indefensible to my taste.
Can any talented Inform or TADS programmers come up with a solution?
Best wishes,
Shannon Klimek
go...@mindspring.com
Tyson Boucher
>I'm hoping to defeat the idea of always having to say "go west" or "se" or
>whatever for object navigation. If the player is in an environment that
has
>no real "compass" direction, such as in a spaceship, how can one cope with
>this? (It's unbelievable to me to have a "south" direction in the
"Starship
>Enterprise").
In a practical sense, I find games which disallow compass directions to
be tedious to play on my PalmPilot, where PalmPilotFrotz includes a handy
compass rose for standard directions, but would require me to manually write
in non-standard ones. There is an elegant efficiency about using single and
double character compass directions, even when using a keyboard. The one
example of non-compass directions I can think of right off, of course, would
be port, starboard, fore, and aft. They've been used in the past to create
a compassless direction system in spaceship settings.
However, I'd advise you to think very carefully before unleashing a
non-compass direction system on people. I believe that IF players with any
experience are already accustomed to compass directions, and despite the
irrationality of *knowing* which way north is, most accept it. There is a
need to call the directions something in order to make navigation somewhat
possible, and as has been mentioned before, some people just use the human
tendency to name directions as an excuse to call an arbitrary direction
"north."
In the absence of gravity, there isn't an obvious up or down, either,
but that doesn't mean that people in space completely abandon those
concepts. They're very likely to pick a direction to call "up," so they can
establish a point of reference. Also, I'm not entirely sure what IF authors
would do with compass directions if a game were set near one of the magnetic
poles on a planet. My guess is, unless a puzzle centered on that fact, they
might just ignore that issue, and keep the map roughly gridlike, because the
compass in IF is often not literal. (On the other hand, I recall that
Starcross used a cylindrical map, where east curved around to west and vice
versa.)
Since you don't often hear about players complaining about it, my
tendency is to say if it's not broken, don't fix it. However, it might be a
worthwhile attempt, and if you truly can come up with a more natural system,
then more power to you. Even so, I feel that this is an issue of your own
sense of style. If the solution you come up with satisfies your desire to
get away from compass directions, but only serves to annoy players, I doubt
it will catch on. Unfortunately, as a player, I am quite set in my habits
and would probably react negatively to losing my compass directions.
--Tyson Boucher
Nick C.
>Arranging your own particular set of directions...in particular, 'aft, fore,
>starboard, and port' are a good idea...one I wish was as easy to implement
>as Nick C. implies.
Don't blame me, that example was straight out of the DM with a few minimal
changes.
>the "a" that should be logically used for "aft" as a shortcut must have an
>alternative because the interpreter thinks it is merely an article and
>complains. Is there a way to make it both? To do without the shortcuts is
>indefensible to my taste.
I doubt there's any way to do so without seriously altering the library, but
then again I could be completely wrong.
Andrew Williams
>
> >the "a" that should be logically used for "aft" as a shortcut must have an
> >alternative because the interpreter thinks it is merely an article and
> >complains. Is there a way to make it both? To do without the shortcuts is
> >indefensible to my taste.
>
I recall that in Hitch Hikers Guide, you could use the abbreviations F,
P, and SB but aft had to be entered in full.
On a sidenote, does anyone know what the nautical equivalents of NE, NW,
SE, and SW are? I have been trying to find out for a while but I am not
really sure where to look. Any knowledgeable help appreciated.
Regards,
Andrew.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> In most places (outside, underground-with-compass), having compass
> points is legitimate. The original Adventure assumed, but didn't say,
> that you had a compass like all non-moribund cavers do (remember,
> Adventure was originally a caver simulation...). In taking the compass
> for granted, I fear it started a bad trend.
Perhaps...
> In a familiar environment (your house, your office, etc.), I suggest
> coding in commands like "kitchen", "bathroom", "bedroom".
However, it isn't necessary to get rid of the directionals,
since it can be reasonably assumed the player knows which way
north is in his own home. (Many people don't, but they're
presumably not the "adventurer" type.)
> On a ship,
> code in "port", "fore", "aft" a la Cutthroats. I haven't done this yet
> in Inform, but I'm under the impression that this isn't hard to do.
Yes. Also, you mentioned a galaxy class starship, in which
case I'd suggest also allowing commands like "Deck 16".
> 1. Outside and overcast enough that you can't see the sun or stars
If it's a familiar environment you're going to know which way
is north, regardless of clouds.
> 2. In a building that you don't know
Yes, but... only to an extent. It depends on the building.
A simply-laid-out building will have major hallways going
one direction and possibly wings going the perpendicular
way, and once again you won't have much trouble.
Now, if it's one of those more complex buildings... I've seen
buildings where even with an *excellent* sense of direction you
needed to look out a window to know which direction you'd
gotten to be facing, if you hadn't been paying attention.
But most buildings aren't like that.
> 3. Deep underground without a compass (a.k.a. "up the creek without a
> paddle")
Deep underground without a compass... you know, there is
very like a REASON that Crowther and Woods just assumed you
had a compass and didn't even mention it...
> I'd suggest "turn left" and "go forward" commands, which might take a
> bit of work.
This can be done without great difficulty. Essentially, the
GAME still knows which way is north even if you don't, and
you code your room connections in the traditional way, but
fool with the Go verb so that the player can only go north
if he's got a compass. Then you allow turn left, turn right,
turn around, and go forward. If you want quarter-directions
(southeast et al) you also have to code "turn full to the left"
and "turn a little to the left" as distinct. The game stores
which direction the player is facing. I also recommend
allowing "go left" and implementing it as turn left followed
by go forward.
Now, the only tough part here is telling the player which
direction the exits are, but it shouldn't be too hard. You
iterate through the direction properties and check each one
to see if it's got a meaningful value for the current location.
If it has you run it through a nested switch statement along
with the player's current direction to come up with "a little
to the left of where you're facing" or "on your right" or
"over your left shoulder" or whatever.
And if the player examines the compass he finds out which
direction he's facing; also, if he's holding the compass
you allow him to "go north", which should in the process
turn him to face that direction.
You will have to put some work into this to make it work decently.
I've seen games where each location had its own idea about
which direction the player was facing so that all the commands
were "left", "right", "forward", et cetera. Mapping the sucker
was neigh unto impossible because you couldn't assume a two-way
door. Going right into one room would leave the exit behind
you, and in another case it would leave the exit on your left
or in front of you. Bad, bad, bad. Stay far away from this
sort of evil. I had scarcely explored half a dozen rooms
before I deleted the game.
-- jonadab
I've given up spamblocking; it wasn't working all that
well anyway; my email address is now correct in the headers.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > >the "a" that should be logically used for "aft" as a shortcut must have an
> > >alternative because the interpreter thinks it is merely an article and
> > >complains. Is there a way to make it both? To do without the shortcuts is
> > >indefensible to my taste.
With aft being only three letters it isn't too bad. If you have a
really massively large game all on a ship it might get annoying.
> On a sidenote, does anyone know what the nautical equivalents of NE, NW,
> SE, and SW are?
I expect they're compounds. "Aft and starboard", for example.
Clumsy, but I can't think of a better system.
> I have been trying to find out for a while but I am not
> really sure where to look.
Ask someone who spent time in a navy. If they don't know, your
players sure won't.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> In a practical sense, I find games which disallow compass directions to
> be tedious to play on my PalmPilot, where PalmPilotFrotz includes a handy
> compass rose for standard directions, but would require me to manually write
> in non-standard ones.
This can be solved by describing things in terms of fore, aft,
starboard, and port, but leaving the standard compass directions
as synonyms. For example, arbitrarily decide that the ship is
travelling north (if it doesn't matter). First time the player
forgets himself and hits "n" to explore, he'll go to the fore of
the vessel and he'll be aware of this feature of the interface, but I
can't imagine anything but a positive reaction. If a player is
sufficiently "into" the game that he knows he's supposed to go
fore and aft and port and starboard he'll never find out that "n"
was a viable shortcut.
> In the absence of gravity, there isn't an obvious up or down, either,
> but that doesn't mean that people in space completely abandon those
> concepts. They're very likely to pick a direction to call "up," so they can
> establish a point of reference.
"The enemy gate is down."
-- Ender Wiggin
> Also, I'm not entirely sure what IF authors
> would do with compass directions if a game were set near one of the magnetic
> poles on a planet. My guess is, unless a puzzle centered on that fact, they
> might just ignore that issue, and keep the map roughly gridlike, because the
> compass in IF is often not literal.
I can see arriving at the pole and finding out "you can't go that
way". I can also see needing to go east six times to get back around
to where you started at one distance from the pole and needing to go
east fifteen times at a different distance. This means going
south and then north (near the south pole -- north and then south
near the north pole) may get you to an adjascent location instead of
where you actually were, but I think that's reasonable.
> Since you don't often hear about players complaining about it, my
> tendency is to say if it's not broken, don't fix it. However, it might be a
> worthwhile attempt, and if you truly can come up with a more natural system,
> then more power to you. Even so, I feel that this is an issue of your own
> sense of style. If the solution you come up with satisfies your desire to
> get away from compass directions, but only serves to annoy players, I doubt
> it will catch on. Unfortunately, as a player, I am quite set in my habits
> and would probably react negatively to losing my compass directions.
This is why I don't advocate abolishing the compass directions in
most cases, unless getting lost without a compass really relates to
the plot. You don't have to blast the player out by mentioning two
or three compass directions in every single room description, but in
general I don't see any sense in disallowing the player to use them
as an interface, even if the direction assignment is arbitrary.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> One thing that I'm starting to get somewhat irritated with, especially in my
> own designs, is the constant need to say things like this, in interactive
> fiction:
>
> "To the west, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
> house's airlock is open to the north. If you really want to stretch out and
> relax, your personal automated massage table is to the west....".
Den
The Den carpet is mostly very lush, except for the trodden pathway
leading from the living room through an archway, under your feet,
and around to the kitchen, parts of which are visible through a
doorway that rather could use a new coat of trim paint. The gleaming
steel airlock entry hangs open, and the inside of the airlock looks
rather cramped. On the other hand, your personal massage table
looks much more relaxing and inviting.
> Enter kitchen doorway
Kitchen
Parts of the Den are visible through a doorway. The trim on the
doorway is painted brown for the most part, but bits of green and
yellow show through where the paint has chipped off. The tile is
rather badly in need of mopping, and there is a substantial pile of
dirty dishes by the sink, but other than that the room is mostly
clean.
There is a post-it note on the refrigerator door handle.
One of the flourescent bulbs is flickering in a mildly annoying
fashion.
Inside the microwave a covered dish turns slowly round and round.
Henry nearly trips over you on his way to the cupboard to fetch
a measuring cup. He looks at you as if you're making his life
unnecessarily difficult. "Isn't there something you could watch on
television until I finish cooking?"
> Out
Den
The Den carpet is mostly very lush, except for the trodden pathway
leading from the living room through an archway, under your feet,
and around to the kitchen, parts of which are visible through a
doorway that rather could use a new coat of trim paint. The gleaming
steel airlock entry hangs open, and the inside of the airlock looks
rather cramped. On the other hand, your personal massage table
looks much more relaxing and inviting.
> go to the living room
You duck under the archway.
Living Room
et cetera...
I should note that even in this case the traditional commands
"north", "south", et cetera should be left working. Leave them
as part of the interface for those of us who prefer them. But
there is no need to clutter the room description with "lies to the
west" and "to your north". That DOES get very old. Instead, how
about putting those in the cant_go routine and possibly also in
an "exits" command?
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Arranging your own particular set of directions...in particular, 'aft, fore,
> starboard, and port' are a good idea...one I wish was as easy to implement
> as Nick C. implies.
It isn't hard. You create your own direction objects and put them
into the compass. The DM explains it in full.
Andrew Plotkin
> However, I'd advise you to think very carefully before unleashing a
> non-compass direction system on people. I believe that IF players with any
> experience are already accustomed to compass directions, and despite the
> irrationality of *knowing* which way north is, most accept it. There is a
> need to call the directions something in order to make navigation somewhat
> possible, and as has been mentioned before, some people just use the human
> tendency to name directions as an excuse to call an arbitrary direction
> "north."
What he said.
See also my comments in the "illogical maze" thread, about exactly what
purpose the compass is intended to fulfil. It's *not* to simulate the
effect of having a magical sense of direction.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Jake Wildstrom
Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>Andrew Williams <awil...@daikin.com.au> wrote:
>> On a sidenote, does anyone know what the nautical equivalents of NE, NW,
>> SE, and SW are?
It doesn't strike me as the sort of compund which would ever come up. It seems
that most boats, being long and narrow, tend to have things laid out in a grid,
without much in the way of diagonal passageways.
And as for steering the boat, since it already has a forward component, port
and starboard are the only real navigational options.
Just for the record: Plundered Hearts, Planetfall, and I think Cutthroats
allowed both nautical directions and standard compass points, with fore=north.
Curses, in the "boat" section, disallowed compass points.
Several sections of Photopia disallow compass directions.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Matthew T. Russotto
Andrew Williams <awil...@daikin.com.au> wrote:
}Nick C. wrote:
}>
}> >the "a" that should be logically used for "aft" as a shortcut must have an
}> >alternative because the interpreter thinks it is merely an article and
}> >complains. Is there a way to make it both? To do without the shortcuts is
}> >indefensible to my taste.
}>
}
}P, and SB but aft had to be entered in full.
}
}really sure where to look. Any knowledgeable help appreciated.
Well, northeast is northeast, nautical or no. If you're looking for
the direction that's 45 degrees to the right, I'd guess "4 points to
starboard".
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Zimri
> > In a familiar environment (your house, your office, etc.), I
suggest
> > coding in commands like "kitchen", "bathroom", "bedroom".
Jonadab:
> However, it isn't necessary to get rid of the directionals,
> since it can be reasonably assumed the player knows which way
> north is in his own home. (Many people don't, but they're
> presumably not the "adventurer" type.)
That means the programmer must either assume the player's character is
an adventurer (or enchanter, etc.), or begin the game in a simple
house facing east on a north-south street a la Bureaucracy or
Hitchhiker's Guide. This usually works. The Invisible Compass Rose
commits Sins Against Mimesis (tm) only rarely, and not even in the
game of that name. I'm thinking specifically of cases where you start
or are thrown in a cubicle/dungeon/monastic-cell within the depths of
a building. Little Blue Men comes to mind right now.
Me:
> > 1. Outside and overcast enough that you can't see the sun or stars
Jonadab:
> If it's a familiar environment you're going to know which way
> is north, regardless of clouds.
Sorry. :^) I was assuming an unfamiliar environment.
There are ways to tell which way is north in at least one kind of
overcast environment, the forest. In my hemisphere (northern),
north-facing slopes receive less sun than south-facing slopes. This
means moss will grow more robustly on the south side of a tree
(usually!). Better methods include checking for frost and snow - and
this will work out in the open as well.
Or you could even *make* a compass. There are lots of potential
puzzles here, provided it's not made the centrepiece of the game.
http://www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/directon.htm
Me:
> > 2. In a building that you don't know
Jonadab:
> Yes, but... only to an extent. It depends on the building.
> A simply-laid-out building will have major hallways going
> one direction and possibly wings going the perpendicular
> way, and once again you won't have much trouble.
... if you have a point of reference, i.e. you came in from outside.
Also, some buildings *always* face in a certain direction, for
instance the church (points to east) and the mosque (points to
Arabia). But this will not apply to cases where you are knocked
unconcious and thrown into a cell, or deep in a research lab of twisty
passages (Delusions).
Jonadab:
> Now, if it's one of those more complex buildings... I've seen
> buildings where even with an *excellent* sense of direction you
> needed to look out a window to know which direction you'd
> gotten to be facing, if you hadn't been paying attention.
> But most buildings aren't like that.
Right, not even in a game (Little Blue Men notwithstanding).
Here are more examples:
1. On South Pole ("EVERY direction is north?!")
2. undefined directions (i.e. Stationfall- "okay, we'll call this way,
'north', and be done with it")
3. floating in space (see #2)
4. playing a character who doesn't understand the concept of "north"
(The Edifice, A Bear's Night Out, Ralph)
Me:
> > 3. Deep underground without a compass (a.k.a. "up the creek
without a
> > paddle")
Jonadab:
> Deep underground without a compass... you know, there is
> very like a REASON that Crowther and Woods just assumed you
> had a compass and didn't even mention it...
Me:
> > I'd suggest "turn left" and "go forward" commands, which might
take a
> > bit of work.
Jonadab:
> This can be done without great difficulty.
<snip>
> You will have to put some work into this to make it work decently.
-- Z(imri)
John Elliott
>> However, it isn't necessary to get rid of the directionals,
>> since it can be reasonably assumed the player knows which way
>> north is in his own home.
>
>an adventurer (or enchanter, etc.), or begin the game in a simple
>house facing east on a north-south street a la Bureaucracy or
>Hitchhiker's Guide.
One of the rooms in the Sir John Soane Museum (in London) has compass
directions painted on the walls just below the ceiling, for some reason
best known to Soane.
>Also, some buildings *always* face in a certain direction, for
>instance the church (points to east)
Liverpool (Anglican) Cathedral doesn't, as I recall.
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
Jim Aikin
>
> This can be done without great difficulty. Essentially, the
> GAME still knows which way is north even if you don't, and
> you code your room connections in the traditional way, but
> fool with the Go verb so that the player can only go north
> if he's got a compass. Then you allow turn left, turn right,
> turn around, and go forward. If you want quarter-directions
> (southeast et al) you also have to code "turn full to the left"
> and "turn a little to the left" as distinct. The game stores
> which direction the player is facing. I also recommend
> allowing "go left" and implementing it as turn left followed
> by go forward.
>
> Now, the only tough part here is telling the player which
> direction the exits are, but it shouldn't be too hard. You
> iterate through the direction properties and check each one
> to see if it's got a meaningful value for the current location.
> If it has you run it through a nested switch statement along
> with the player's current direction to come up with "a little
> to the left of where you're facing" or "on your right" or
> "over your left shoulder" or whatever.
I've never tried to code anything this tricky, but it seems to me (as I
suggested in a thread last month) that this system more or less forces
you into a situation where each room has four (or more) descriptions.
Your view of the room can depend rather drastically on which way you're
facing.
For example, let's say you're in the Great Hall facing north, and the
portrait of Uncle Horatio is on the south wall. At this point, the
command 'x portrait' has to do one of three things: Either it turns the
player 180 degrees (explicitly or implicitly; the latter is guaranteed
to be confusing, and the former will be almost as confusing during the
phase when the player is first drawing the map), it allows the player to
examine the portrait without turning (which is confusing, and also a Sin
Against Mimesis, which is what this whole scheme is intended to avoid),
or the software responds "You can't see any such thing" or some variant
thereof ("That's behind you," for instance), which is annoying,
confusing, or both.
Oh, yeah, and how do you implement 'look'? Does the player implicitly
rotate 360 degrees, in order to see everything that's in the room? If
so, you'll get 2 descriptions of what was in front of you, one at the
start of the rotation and the other at the end. Implicit rotation by 270
degrees avoids this problem, but then the player always has to follow
'look' with 'turn right' to get back to their original orientation.
The only way I can see out of this one is, you give the player character
Linda Blair's head. That was her name, right? The actress in The
Exorcist who had the freewheeling neck.
I can think of good reasons to implement "go left," "turn around," and
so on as tools that you need to use in a maze instead of standard
compass directions. This could be fun. And as others have suggested, in
a spaceship in free fall (or outside the ship, for that matter), the
programmer really has no alternative. There may be other reasons as well
... but compass directions are an inoffensive compromise that's
widespread because it WORKS.
Go w, young man, go w.
--Jim Aikin
Michael Baum
<awil...@daikin.com.au> wrote:
>On a sidenote, does anyone know what the nautical equivalents of NE, NW,
>SE, and SW are? I have been trying to find out for a while but I am not
>really sure where to look. Any knowledgeable help appreciated.
If the intended usage would be something along the lines of wanting to
enter the compartment nw or se from the current location, I don't
think there is a reasonable nautical equivalent. IRL, you'd either go
for'd or abaft (depending) to the appropriate location with the
required degree of leftness or rightness assumed.
If you're referring to something external to the ship, I believe the
usual usage would be something along the lines of "X points off the
port (starboard) bow" or somesuch -- "points" in this usage being the
32 equidistant divisions of the compass rose. Tricky to code, really,
-maab
BrenBarn
remove compas directions (even in my work in progress, which is set largely on
a space station). Nevertheless. . .
>For example, let's say you're in the Great Hall facing north, and the
>portrait of Uncle Horatio is on the south wall. At this point, the
>command 'x portrait' has to do one of three things: Either it turns the
>player 180 degrees (explicitly or implicitly; the latter is guaranteed
>to be confusing, and the former will be almost as confusing during the
>phase when the player is first drawing the map), it allows the player to
>examine the portrait without turning (which is confusing, and also a Sin
>Against Mimesis, which is what this whole scheme is intended to avoid),
>or the software responds "You can't see any such thing" or some variant
>thereof ("That's behind you," for instance), which is annoying,
>confusing, or both.
painting, looks at the painting, and then turns back to face the way you were
originally facing. Perhaps it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a person
would turn back around after examining something, but you could get around this
with some remark like "Your eyes wander the room, and you turn back to the
north." (Of course, if you're eliminating compass directions COMPLETELY, you'd
have to replace "to the north" with someting like "to face the large sofa", or
what have I.)
>Oh, yeah, and how do you implement 'look'? Does the player implicitly
>rotate 360 degrees, in order to see everything that's in the room? If
>so, you'll get 2 descriptions of what was in front of you, one at the
>start of the rotation and the other at the end. Implicit rotation by 270
>degrees avoids this problem, but then the player always has to follow
>'look' with 'turn right' to get back to their original orientation.
I don't think you need to get that complicated about it. Just print a
description of every object in the room. Exactly what gyrations the player
goes through are unimportant.
>I can think of good reasons to implement "go left," "turn around," and
>so on as tools that you need to use in a maze instead of standard
>compass directions. This could be fun. And as others have suggested, in
>a spaceship in free fall (or outside the ship, for that matter), the
>programmer really has no alternative. There may be other reasons as well
>... but compass directions are an inoffensive compromise that's
>widespread because it WORKS.
I agree. As has been suggested before, I believe that compass directions
can often be viewed as convenient reference points, rather than as "toward the
north pole" per se. For example, if I'm on a spaceship, one obvious point of
reference is the foremost part. Since this is already a point of reference, it
makes little difference what you CALL it. Theoretically, all compass
directions could be replaced with "Point of reference A", "Point of reference
B", etc. The reason people don't do this is because everyone already knows the
words "north" and "south" -- and, more importantly, their relative directions
(north and south are directly away from each other, for example). The words
"north", "south", etc., can be used in a "metaphorical" or "analogous" or
"relative" sense rather than in their most literal sense.
From,
Brendan B. B.
Bren...@aol.com
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
Zimri
news:932768654.2983.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> "Zimri" <zim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> However, it isn't necessary to get rid of the directionals,
> >> since it can be reasonably assumed the player knows which way
> >> north is in his own home.
> >
> >That means the programmer must either assume the player's character
is
> >an adventurer (or enchanter, etc.), or begin the game in a simple
> >house facing east on a north-south street a la Bureaucracy or
> >Hitchhiker's Guide.
>
> One of the rooms in the Sir John Soane Museum (in London) has
compass
> directions painted on the walls just below the ceiling, for some
reason
> best known to Soane.
>
> >Also, some buildings *always* face in a certain direction, for
> >instance the church (points to east)
>
> Liverpool (Anglican) Cathedral doesn't, as I recall.
I don't know for sure. Anyway, the earliest churches, being based on
the synagogue / basilica model, didn't point anywhere specific, and
only later pointed to the rising sun under influence from Mithraism.
Also, the oldest mosques pointed to the north of Mecca (possibly
Jerusalem?). These are the exceptions; I'm sure you get the general
idea. :^)
-- Z(imri)
Zimri
news:37980e89...@news.bright.net...
> "Don Rae" <don...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> > One thing that I'm starting to get somewhat irritated with,
especially in my
> > own designs, is the constant need to say things like this, in
interactive
> > fiction:
> >
> > "To the west, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to
your
> > house's airlock is open to the north. If you really want to
stretch out and
> > relax, your personal automated massage table is to the west....".
Jonadab: <after describing "ENTER KITCHEN DOOR" scenario>
> I should note that even in this case the traditional commands
> "north", "south", et cetera should be left working. Leave them
> as part of the interface for those of us who prefer them. But
> there is no need to clutter the room description with "lies to the
> west" and "to your north". That DOES get very old. Instead, how
> about putting those in the cant_go routine and possibly also in
> an "exits" command?
This was a much better idea than my "turn left", "go forward"
suggestion.
-- Z
Jim Aikin
>
> How about this: The game generates an "implied turn" to face the
> painting, looks at the painting, and then turns back to face the way you were
> originally facing. Perhaps it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a person
> would turn back around after examining something, but you could get around this
> with some remark like "Your eyes wander the room, and you turn back to the
> north." (Of course, if you're eliminating compass directions COMPLETELY, you'd
> have to replace "to the north" with someting like "to face the large sofa", or
> what have I.)
To me, that approach violates the spirit of the 'go forward', 'turn
left' concept. I don't think this concept is a very good one, but if
you're going to implement it, I think you're better off tackling it
head-on rather than ducking and weaving. Trying to implement it when
convenient and ignore it otherwise is almost bound to create confusion
for the player.
I thought of an even messier example of what kind of trouble this
world-model can get you into.
The player enters the Dining Hall from the south, and is thus facing
north. In the center of the Dining Hall is a huge oaken table. At this
point, the table is in view, so commands like 'look under table' and
'put maltese falcon on table' make sense. If the player types 'go
forward', we can assume that she detours around the table and exits
through the north door; that's easy.
Instead, the player types 'turn around', and is thus facing south. So
the table is BEHIND her, and 'look under table' makes no sense whatever.
Whether the table is in view plainly depends on whether the player's
orientation is northward or southward. If you allow 'look under table'
when the player's orientation is southward, you're undermining the very
realism that you're trying to enhance.
But it gets worse: What happens if the player later enters the Dining
Hall from the NORTH? At this point, the table is in view if the player's
orientation is southward, and out of view if the player's orientation is
northward -- just the opposite of the preceding situation. You end up
having to code four "sub-locations" within the Dining Hall in order to
make access to the table realistic.
There's no reason, technically, why you can't do this. It's just a lot
of work for a very small payoff, in my opinion.
--Jim Aikin
Sandsquish
<<Oh, yeah, and how do you implement 'look'?>>
Why wouldn't you implement it the same way you always have?
<<Implicit rotation by 270 degrees avoids this problem, but then the player
always has to follow 'look' with 'turn right' to get back to their original
orientation.>>
Why?
<<The only way I can see out of this one is, you give the player character [the
head of] Linda Blair [the actress from "The Exocist" whose head spun all the
way around].>>
Don't our player characters already have Linda Blair's head? When they enter a
location from the south, they can still see things in the southern end of the
location. They don't have to rotate 270 degrees or TURN SOUTH to see things
that are behind them.
It seems to me that the only real difference here would be in the location
descriptions. You would have to have variables that changed depending on which
direction the player entered the location from. Instead of "A huge couch, to
the west, dominates the living room," you would have, "A huge couch [ahead of
you | to your right | behind you | to your left] dominates the living room."
Of course, you could just do what has already been suggested, use GO TO
LOCATION instead of directions.
I agree that compass directions are jarring when used in adventure games. You
don't generally hear people use them in fiction or everyday life. Of course,
text-adventure games aren't fiction, and they usually aren't about everyday
life; but still, avoiding compass directions would probably make these games
easier for newcomers to deal with and make their prose less awkward.
Walt
BrenBarn
>the table is BEHIND her, and 'look under table' makes no sense whatever.
>Whether the table is in view plainly depends on whether the player's
>orientation is northward or southward. If you allow 'look under table'
>when the player's orientation is southward, you're undermining the very
>realism that you're trying to enhance.
possibility. If we really want to strictly adhere to the left/right modus
operandi, then it would probably be best to code four separate rooms: one for
facing east, one for west, one for north, and one for south. Then, the command
"turn left", when in the "north" room (i.e., facing north), would be like "go
west". In the south room (i.e., facing south), it would be like "go east".
In my personal opinion however, the point is moot. Please follow in the
footsteps of Bill Nye (the Science Guy) and consider the following:
A) Our objective here is to try to simulate real life.
B) In real life, if a person is in a room, she will not be deterred in her
desire to do something simply by the fact that she is not facing the right way.
For example, if I am in a room and I want to examine a table behind me, I
don't think, "Whoops, can't do that -- the table's behind me!" I just turn
around.
C) Thus, since we are trying to simulate real life, we must not refuse to
allow the player to perform an action simply because she is not facing the
right way.
D) If the player can do things without worrying about which way she's
facing, then which way she's facing is irrelevant.
E) Hey! Did I hear right? Which way the player faces is IRRELEVANT!
(Well, that's the way I see it, anyway.)
Now, if we're talking about travel on a ship, in space, or in other
situations where north, south, etc., aren't (considered by some to be)
appropriate, then that's a whole 'nother ballgame. But that's another story.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Go w, young man, go w.
I don't recognise the verb "young".
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> I've never tried to code anything this tricky, but it seems to me (as I
> suggested in a thread last month) that this system more or less forces
> you into a situation where each room has four (or more) descriptions.
No, no, no.
Each room has ONE description which DOES NOT say "the door is on your
left, the painting is on the south wall, and the mailbox is right in
front of you". The room description mention which direction any
particular thing is, because it doesn't matter. It's in the room,
so the player can see it. Period.
> For example, let's say you're in the Great Hall facing north, and the
> portrait of Uncle Horatio is on the south wall.
Don't put the portrait on the south wall. Just put it on the wall.
Which wall the player imagines the portrait on does not matter.
> Oh, yeah, and how do you implement 'look'? Does the player implicitly
> rotate 360 degrees, in order to see everything that's in the room?
I just assume that the player is standing at the edge of the room,
probably moslty still in the doorway through which he just came. So
he can see the whole room. Technically if he turns around this means
he's walking about the room as he does, but that's a detail the
player really doesn't need to know about, IMO. Just skip it. If
he's in the room, he can see the whole room. MUCH simpler.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> It seems to me that the only real difference here would be in the location
> descriptions. You would have to have variables that changed depending on which
> direction the player entered the location from. Instead of "A huge couch, to
> the west, dominates the living room," you would have, "A huge couch [ahead of
> you | to your right | behind you | to your left] dominates the living room."
NO.
You would have, "A huge couch dominates the living room."
Which direction it is doesn't matter. It's in the same room.
You don't have to walk over to it; you can just SIT ON COUCH
if you want.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > >Also, some buildings *always* face in a certain direction, for
> > >instance the church (points to east)
WHAT?
Churches can point any direction. Mine points west, approximately.
tv's Spatch
>
>> > >Also, some buildings *always* face in a certain direction, for
>> > >instance the church (points to east)
>
>WHAT?
>
>Churches can point any direction. Mine points west, approximately.
Certain religions require prayer in the direction of holy land --
Mecca, Jerusalem, Las Vegas -- and position their houses of worship
accordingly.
Others can point anywhere they please.
--
der Spatchel R. Noyes
Reading, MA 01867
http://spatch.ne.mediaone.net/
"Jingle bells, Batman smells, Robin laid an egg" - Robert Goulet
Jim Aikin
>
> D) If the player can do things without worrying about which way she's
> facing, then which way she's facing is irrelevant.
> E) Hey! Did I hear right? Which way the player faces is IRRELEVANT!
> (Well, that's the way I see it, anyway.)
Nonononono!! That violates the whole spirit of the concept, the whole
idea that's being put forward here. The 'go left', 'go forward' idea
ONLY MAKES SENSE in light of the fact that the player is "facing" a
particular direction, and can alter that direction.
>l
You are in the Dining Hall. There are exits to your left, to your right,
and behind you.
>turn right
Done.
>l
You are in the Dining Hall. There are exits in front of you, to your
left, and to your right.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If the direction the player is
facing is irrelevant, then the command 'go left' makes NO SENSE
WHATEVER. The only way I can see to implement a facing-irrelevant
navigational interface is with 'w', 'n', and so on -- which is what I'd
recommend in any case.
Once you assume the player is "facing" some particular direction, then
you can't arbitrarily toss that fact aside except when you want to use
it for navigation. If the player is facing north and wants to examine
the portrait of Uncle Horatio on the south wall, the player by golly has
to turn around!!!!!
--Jim Aikin
BrenBarn
>facing is irrelevant, then the command 'go left' makes NO SENSE
>WHATEVER. The only way I can see to implement a facing-irrelevant
>navigational interface is with 'w', 'n', and so on -- which is what I'd
>recommend in any case.
can mold it to fit his desires. Thus, since it doesn't matter which way the
player is facing, you can just decree that she's facing in just the right
direction to make all your room descriptions work right.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I consider the NAMES used to refer to
directions as irrelevant details. Thus, I consider "left", "right", etc. to be
merely synonyms for "west", "east", etc. The reason (again, as I described in
an earlier post) is that if our objective is to simulate real life, we have to
REMOVE relative directions from the player's head, not ADD them. No one walks
into a room worrying about what's on their right or their left -- whatever's in
the room is just "in the room".
And because of all this loony business, I agree with you that the familiar
"compass" system of movement is best overall. I cite the same reason: The
NAMES of directions are irrelevant. Thus, I can have my cake and eat it too,
simply by making the word "left" a synonym for "west", and then letting the
player use either one at his pleasure.
>Once you assume the player is "facing" some particular direction, then
>you can't arbitrarily toss that fact aside except when you want to use
>it for navigation. If the player is facing north and wants to examine
>the portrait of Uncle Horatio on the south wall, the player by golly has
>to turn around!!!!!
I disagree, for the same reasons put forth above. You don't have to
decide that she's "facing some particular direction", you just have to decide
she's "facing". Period. Then you can let the person at the keyboard go along
and have fun without getting bamboozled by turning around in circles and having
all the directions change all of a sudden. Only the most persnickety player
would worry about the why and wherefore of left and right -- the average person
would just USE them.
Jim Aikin
>
> Why cannot the PC's exact location in the room be transparent when we
> navigate with left/right? And why cannot forward just be PC's "general
> direction" (so to speak)?
With all due respect, I don't think you're thinking it through. What is
a "general direction"??? When the PC enters a room through a door, she
is currently facing _some_ direction, in context of which the commands
'go forward', 'go left', and so on make sense. If the PC is not facing
any particular direction, then what does 'go left' mean??? Not a blessed
thing.
> So, if PC enters Dining Hall from south using the verb 'LEFT' from another
> room, PC is then in the Dining Room in an as non-definite location as if
> she had used 'NORTH', but with the *reference direction* 'FORWARD' being
> north.
The problem is, what happens if she later enters the dining room from
the north? Now 'forward' means 'go south' rather than 'go north'. The
result of this ambiguity is both simple and horrifying. After spending
five minutes poking around in the dining room (and possibly taking a
break to answer a phone call from her mother), the player wants to leave
the dining room and go elsewhere -- but SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER WHICH
DIRECTION SHE CAME FROM! At this point, the command 'forward' is not
user-friendly at all, it's totally user-hostile. It will make the user
angry. "Whoops! I wanted to go to the kitchen, not the entrance hall!"
> 'LOOK UNDER THE TABLE' should make sence regardless of any "faced
> direction", for the simple reason that there is a table in the room, and
> IF parsers are supposed to understand what the player wants.
Well, yes, that's precisely the point. It SHOULD make sense. That's how
we want game software to work. But if the PC has a directional
orientation, it DOESN'T make sense. You have to pretend that the PC has
an orientation sometimes, but not at other times, and that's confusing.
> The "realism" aspect of left/right - as I see it - is not in that PC is
> facing a direction in any excluding or inhibiting way, or, for that
> matter, all of a suddent is standing in a specific loacations within the
> room, but in that directions are refered relatively to the movement on the
> world map - in stead of absolutely.
If you'll forgive my asking -- relative to what? Relative to the present
value of the PC's "orientation" variable, that's what. Absent such a
variable, how could the system possibly work?
Grump, grump, grump.
--Jim Aikin
Jim Aikin
>
> It seems to me that the only real difference here would be in the location
> descriptions. You would have to have variables that changed depending on which
> direction the player entered the location from. Instead of "A huge couch, to
> the west, dominates the living room," you would have, "A huge couch [ahead of
> you | to your right | behind you | to your left] dominates the living room."
>
> LOCATION instead of directions.
>
> I agree that compass directions are jarring when used in adventure games. You
> don't generally hear people use them in fiction or everyday life. Of course,
> text-adventure games aren't fiction, and they usually aren't about everyday
> life; but still, avoiding compass directions would probably make these games
> easier for newcomers to deal with and make their prose less awkward.
Try it. I'd love to see it done. Implement a dummy game with, say, a
dozen rooms on the ground floor of a mansion, with various connecting
doors that allow the player to navigate around the mansion in a variety
of ways (so that they're not always entering the front parlor from the
same direction). Write the room descriptions in an orientation-sensitive
way. No puzzles, no objects you can pick up, no doors to open or shut,
just a variety of things you can examine, including paintings on the
walls and some windows you can look out of.
While you're at it, add a couple of connections on a nw/se axis, not
just n/s/e/w. Use 'angle left' and 'angle right' to access these exits.
(There's an important reason to allow such map connections: So you can
put three exits into two walls.) Implement 'turn left', 'turn right',
and 'turn around', so the user can change orientation within a given
room. Implement an 'orientation' utility verb that tells the player
which direction she is facing -- without using compass directions to
describe it.
Implement 'turn left', 'turn right', and 'turn around', so the user can
change orientation within a given room. I'll even stipulate that you can
use 'go to front parlor' if you want. That should be especially amusing
if the front parlor is at the opposite end of the building, with two
entrances (one on the north and one on the east) and two routes by which
it can be reached. How will you communicate the player's orientation to
her when she reaches the parlor?
If your dummy game works smoothly, I'll eat my hat.
--Jim Aikin
Jim Aikin
>
>
> > Go w, young man, go w.
>
> I don't recognise the verb "young".
>
> -- jonadab
Nor do I, often and again, it seems.... "I'd like to young you until the
dandelions spring."
--Jim A.
Daniel Barkalow
> Also, I'm not entirely sure what IF authors would do with compass
> directions if a game were set near one of the magnetic poles on a planet.
For a while I've been wanting to write a game set on the
three-dimensional surface of a small four-dimensional sphere, such that
you can walk around a bit and return to the same place, except with the
directions rotated. Of course, the character would be equally new to this
situation, so the player's confusion would be perfectly in character. I
expect people would avoid using shortcuts that turned them around from
the way they expected, and thus everyone would have an entirely different
idea of how to get from place to place.
"You are at the top of the universe. Ladders lead down in all directions."
-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*
Daniel Giaimo
news:Pine.LNX.3.91.99072...@iabervon.mit.edu...
> On 22 Jul 1999, Tyson Boucher wrote:
>
> > Also, I'm not entirely sure what IF authors would do with compass
> > directions if a game were set near one of the magnetic poles on a
planet.
>
> For a while I've been wanting to write a game set on the
> three-dimensional surface of a small four-dimensional sphere, such that
> you can walk around a bit and return to the same place, except with the
> directions rotated.
Why do you think that the directions would be rotated? The 3-manifold
that you are describing has no such property. If, however, you were to use
the 3-d projective space, then you would have a problem similar to that.
Also, since the surface of a 4-d hypersphere is 3-d you would have to
somehow be able to go up and down as well as north, south, east, and west.
> Of course, the character would be equally new to this
> situation, so the player's confusion would be perfectly in character. I
> expect people would avoid using shortcuts that turned them around from
> the way they expected, and thus everyone would have an entirely different
> idea of how to get from place to place.
>
> "You are at the top of the universe. Ladders lead down in all directions."
>
> -Iabervon
> *This .sig unintentionally changed*
>
--
--Daniel Giaimo
Remove nospam. from my address to e-mail me. |
dgiaimo@(nospam.)ix.netcom.com
^^^^^^^^^<-(Remove)
|--------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK--------| Ros: I don't believe in it anyway.
|Version: 3.1 |
|GM d-() s+:+++ a--- C++ UIA P+>++++ | Guil: What?
|L E--- W+ N++ o? K w>--- !O M-- V-- |
|PS? PE? Y PGP- t+(*) 5 X+ R- tv+(-) | Ros: England.
|b+@ DI++++ D--- G e(*)>++++ h->++ !r |
|!y->+++ | Guil: Just a conspiracy of
|---------END GEEK CODE BLOCK---------| cartographers, you mean?
Daniel Barkalow
walking behavior in my house, the way would be to use room names for
navigation, but not always have the player get to the named room. E.g.,
.> Go to kitchen
You walk down the stairs, turn left, and pick up a newspaper.
Living Room
...
But really, when walking through somewhere I know well, I just walk and I
get where I'm going. I don't really use either compass directions,
relative directions, or even directions relative to the house. Even in
unfamiliar locations, I don't pay much attention to which *direction* I'm
walking, so much as what passageway I'm walking through.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > So, if PC enters Dining Hall from south using the verb 'LEFT' from another
> > room, PC is then in the Dining Room in an as non-definite location as if
> > she had used 'NORTH', but with the *reference direction* 'FORWARD' being
> > north.
>
> The problem is, what happens if she later enters the dining room from
> the north? Now 'forward' means 'go south' rather than 'go north'.
Absolutely. Wouldn't have it any other way.
> The
> result of this ambiguity is both simple and horrifying.
That's absurd. If you've been going south, forward is south;
if you've been going north, forward is north. What is
counterintuitive in the extreme and should be avoided like an
eighty-foot vat of phenol is the situation where the player
goes south into a room and 'forward' goes east, west, or north.
If your game does THAT, it's going to get deleted a lot, I think.
> After spending
> five minutes poking around in the dining room (and possibly taking a
> break to answer a phone call from her mother), the player wants to leave
> the dining room and go elsewhere -- but SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER WHICH
> DIRECTION SHE CAME FROM! At this point, the command 'forward' is not
> user-friendly at all, it's totally user-hostile. It will make the user
> angry. "Whoops! I wanted to go to the kitchen, not the entrance hall!"
This is when it's useful to allow alternatives to "forward", such
as "go to the entrance hall", "go outside", "go north", or "walk
through the framed doorway". An "exits" verb is also nice.
> > 'LOOK UNDER THE TABLE' should make sence regardless of any "faced
> > direction", for the simple reason that there is a table in the room, and
> > IF parsers are supposed to understand what the player wants.
>
> Well, yes, that's precisely the point. It SHOULD make sense. That's how
> we want game software to work. But if the PC has a directional
> orientation, it DOESN'T make sense. You have to pretend that the PC has
> an orientation sometimes, but not at other times, and that's confusing.
You never need to pretend that the PC doesn't have a directional
orientation. You simply don't concern yourself with the exact
spatial-layout internals of the room. The player is facing north,
but the player's location is only given as "in the parlor" or
whatever. The player is not standing "in the parlor by the north
entrance" or, worse, "1.2 meters north of the northwest corner of the
table in the parlor". The player is just in the parlor, and that's
it. Same with all the objects in the parlor, with the exception of
exits. They're in the parlor, but they're not arranged in any
particular fashion within the parlor (except in the sense that the
salt shaker may be on the table, et cetera).
What I'm saying is that room descriptions and object descriptions
should be *separate*. The room is described in terms of its
architecture, carpet, wallpaper, whatever, and the objects are
described in terms of themselves, but there is no need to say that a
given object is at any particular point in the room. It's just
"here", in the room. Even in the case where something logically has
to be against a wall (like a fireplace or painting) or even in a
corner (like a corner cupboard), it is not necessary to specify WHICH
wall or WHICH corner. Leave the player to imagine it in whichever
corner or against whichever wall he wants. Only in very rare and
unusual situations will this matter to the game.
IOW, what I'm saying is that in a textual game, you don't want to
start giving objects coordinates. For graphical games that's fine,
but for text games it's a Bad Idea IMO. Just put the table in the
dining room and leave it at that. Spend your efforts describing the
table's maple surface with a slightly worn finish and one somewhat
obvious gouge rather than worrying about whether it's in front of or
beside or behind the player. The former adds a lot more to the
prosaic value of the game than the latter.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Now you want to navigate. Either you remember where you came from and know
> your directions, or you don't. If you don't, you 'LOOK', and the
> directions are told to you, relative to the way you entered the room. (See
> also below.)
Ick. I would much prefer to LOOK and have the directions not
mentioned. Really. If I want to know which directions the exits are
I don't mind typing "exits"; anyway, if the game is richly described
I should be able to reference the exits by some means other than
direction. "Climb the stairs", "Pass through the arch", "open the
wooden door and go in", "go into the kitchen", or the like.
> For example, I have no problem with:
> "You are in a small ante-room. Doors lead back and forward. There is a
> chest to the left and another one to the right"
> .>EXAMINE LEFT CHEST
> "It is locked"
> .>GO FORWARD
> "You open the door in front of you and go through it. You are now..."
*I* have a problem with this. The best adjective in the whole thing
is "small" (or perhaps "locked"), and there are no adverbs. Make one
chest a dark, rough, heavy oaken chest, and make the other one a
smooth, lightly-finished maple chest. Or whatever. Give the
anteroom a description, and make it lead from somewhere to somewhere
so that the doors can be referenced that way.
ANTEROOM
You are in a small anteroom with horrendous green and orange paisley
wallpaper. The screen door leading out to the porch lacks any latch
and his held closed by a standard hydrolic door closer. A large
wooden door, painted white, leads into the house. There is a scuffed
green mat on the cement floor beneath your feet, and an uncovered
light bulb in a loose socket hangs disconcertingly by two wires from
the ceiling.
On either side of the room sit a dark, rough, heavy oaken chest bound
together with iron and a smooth, lightly-finished maple chest with a
brass clasp.
> Examine the dark chest
This chest just looks heavy. The oak is aged, and its dark colour
probably comes from that more than the stain. You are a little bit
leary to touch it for fear of unpleasant splinters. (Are there
any other kind?) The boards are held together with thick
cast iron braces, and the lid is fastened down with a large and
slightly rusty iron lock, which looks as if it takes a key the
size of your hand.
> Forward
[or, if you don't remeber which way is forward, you can "go out" or
"go to the porch" or "enter the screen door"]
You push open the screen door and step out onto the porch. The
door closer pulls the door closed behind you.
PORCH
[Insert description here...]
> By the way, many NWSE games support 'BACK'. Even after having messed
> around the room for a while.
Sure, why not?
> > The problem is, what happens if she later enters the dining room from
> > the north? Now 'forward' means 'go south' rather than 'go north'. The
> > result of this ambiguity is both simple and horrifying. After spending
>
> I cannot see the ambiguity in that forward is another direction when you
> enter from the north than when you entered from the south. Am I missing
> some point here?
If so, I'm missing it also.
> > five minutes poking around in the dining room (and possibly taking a
> > break to answer a phone call from her mother), the player wants to leave
> > the dining room and go elsewhere -- but SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER WHICH
> > DIRECTION SHE CAME FROM! At this point, the command 'forward' is not
> > user-friendly at all, it's totally user-hostile. It will make the user
> > angry. "Whoops! I wanted to go to the kitchen, not the entrance hall!"
> >
>
> Left/right navigation doesn't exclude room name navigation.
> "Now which darn way is the kitchen again; north, west?"
> .>GO KITCHEN
>
> "Now which darn way is the kitchen again; forward, left?"
> .>GO KITCHEN
Precisely. And if the kitchen is adjascent, some variation on this
should probably be allowed.
Now, if the kitchen is eighteen locations away, the game need not
necessarily permit the player to jump straight there. (Then again,
compact design so that the kitchen isn't that far away would be
a Good Thing(TM).)
> Or you could:
> .>LOOK
> "You are in the Dining Hall, the kitchen is to your left."
No, the LOOK verb already has a meaning, and that isn't it.
This is what EXITS is for (and also the cant_go routine, which
should probably call ExitsSub by default in many games).
> PS. To everyone in this thread: Has as anyone here actually *played* an
> adventure with only left/right/back/forward navigation? Any titles out
> there one can try?
I've never played one* that did it CORRECTLY. (Then again, there are
many games I have not played, and some of them may handle this rather
well.) There was a cheezy one which took place on a starship, the
name of which I don't recall, that implemented it in a ghastly and
confusing fashion.
Personally, I don't have a problem with NSEW games, provided they
don't have room descriptions like "You're in a room. There's a door
to the west, a doorway to the east, and stairs going down to the
south." Same with RLFB games -- I don't want to see "You're in a
room. There's a door to your right, a doorway to your left, and
stairs going down straight in front of you." I don't want to read
that. I want to bestow my partially processed lunch on it.
Use words. Words are your friends. That includes adjectives and
adverbs.
Directional terms don't add much to the vividness of the game.
* Well, not one that I can talk about at the moment or that
you can get ahold of to play just now.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> For a while I've been wanting to write a game set on the
> three-dimensional surface of a small four-dimensional sphere, such that
Say,....
Why not have the game take place on the four-dimensional surface of a
five-dimensional object? Then the AUTHOR could get confused trying
to play the game...
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >Churches can point any direction. Mine points west, approximately.
>
> Certain religions require prayer in the direction of holy land --
> Mecca, Jerusalem, Las Vegas -- and position their houses of worship
> accordingly.
I'm aware of this, but Christendom (and, for that matter, most
post-Christian religions) (hence, "church" as a more specific form of
"house of worship") has no such requirement.
> Others can point anywhere they please.
Right. Churches are in this category.
Simon 'tufty' Stapleton
> spatula@!nnuendo.com (tv's Spatch) wrote:
>
> > >Churches can point any direction. Mine points west, approximately.
> >
> > Certain religions require prayer in the direction of holy land --
> > Mecca, Jerusalem, Las Vegas -- and position their houses of worship
> > accordingly.
>
> I'm aware of this, but Christendom (and, for that matter, most
> post-Christian religions) (hence, "church" as a more specific form of
> "house of worship") has no such requirement.
>
> > Others can point anywhere they please.
>
> Right. Churches are in this category.
Ah. Not always. While I'm aware that over on that side of the pond
you're a little thin on history [1], you will find that most if not
all UKoGBaNI churches are aligned E-W along their longer axis. There
are religious reasons for this, IIRC[2], but this tends to have been
binned in more modern times for reasons more along the lines of 'fitting
the building into the available land'.
Also, (tying this neatly back into the thread) where I come from, i.e.
in the fens[4], churches were used as navigational aids, and tended to
be aligned in straight lines leading N, S, E & W. Neet, no?
Simon
[1] Flame-proof suit firmly donned by this point.
[2] But I'm buggered if I can remember exactly what they are - it's been
a long while since I learned this stuff [3]
[3] Or went to church, come to that.
[4] Flat piece of dehydrated sea on the eastern side of the UK.
Points to navigate by are conspicuously absent there, due to the
excess of sky and absense of anything else, like trees. Hence using
churches, which tended to be big, built on hills[5], and therefore
easily visible from a distance.
[5] Hill(n) - anything more than 3 inches above sea level.
BrenBarn
>don't have room descriptions like "You're in a room. There's a door
>to the west, a doorway to the east, and stairs going down to the
>south." Same with RLFB games -- I don't want to see "You're in a
>room. There's a door to your right, a doorway to your left, and
>stairs going down straight in front of you." I don't want to read
>that. I want to bestow my partially processed lunch on it.
GO KITCHEN)? I disagree. As I've said before (and will undoubtedly say again)
the NAME you use to refer to directions is not important. Whether I type
"north" or "go kitchen" doesn't matter to me. While it's true that using "go
kitchen" is more realistic, I don't think it's SO much more realistic that its
benefits outweigh the difficulties of programming in all kinds of verbs or what
have I that have to worry about: A) What room I'm in; B) What rooms are
adjacent; C) What happens if I type "GO X" and X isn't adjacent; and all that
jazz. But this is just my opinion. I think it's up to each individual
programmer to decide how far he's willing to go in search of realism.
Or perhaps you're just suggesting that the room description be more like
this: "You're in a large, well-lighted room, which is strangely unfurnished. A
small, unimposing door leads off to the west, and there's an important-looking
doorway pointing east. To the south is a flight of rickety stairs, leading
down." If that's what you meant, I applaud you and agree with you. A little
atmosphere never hurt anybody.
>Use words. Words are your friends. That includes adjectives and
>adverbs.
. . .which are useful for describing doors and doorways, where you don't
have much choice in the way of nouns. But it also includes nouns and verbs,
which come in handy when you need a little variety. They allow you to call a
"painting" a "portrait", a "landscape", an "oil canvas", etc.
>Directional terms don't add much to the vividness of the game.
No they don't, but they're the easiest, simplest, and least confusing way
to tell the player where she can go.
Andrew Plotkin
> confusing way to tell the player where she can go.
Right.
Here are two things that I hate. These *reduce* the vividness of the
game, to the point where I will be fairly unwilling to play it.
(1) Having to type "look" or "exits" every time I want to leave a room. I
want to memorize all the movement commands early, and then use them by
reflex. If "left" in the Dining Room sometimes goes to the Living Room and
sometimes to the Kitchen, I hate that.
(2) Having to type long commands to move. "go to kitchen" is too long.
"kitchen" is marginal; I might put up with it in a small game, but if
you've got 75 rooms, you'll have real difficulty inventing a short
typeable name for each one. Particularly since the player will probably be
moving around much more than in a five-room game.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
L. Ross Raszewski
<jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>spatula@!nnuendo.com (tv's Spatch) wrote:
>
>> >Churches can point any direction. Mine points west, approximately.
>>
>> Certain religions require prayer in the direction of holy land --
>> Mecca, Jerusalem, Las Vegas -- and position their houses of worship
>> accordingly.
>
>I'm aware of this, but Christendom (and, for that matter, most
>post-Christian religions) (hence, "church" as a more specific form of
>"house of worship") has no such requirement.
>
>> Others can point anywhere they please.
>
>Right. Churches are in this category.
>
>
It is customary, however, for Roman Catholic churches to point
east, in order that the morning sun makes the big stained glass
window look really impressive during Mass (The closest church to me
actually points west, and its "big" service is in the early evening.)
BrenBarn
>want to memorize all the movement commands early, and then use them by
>reflex. If "left" in the Dining Room sometimes goes to the Living Room and
>sometimes to the Kitchen, I hate that.
orientation be used only for navigation, and not for actions taking place
inside a single room. (This suggestion received mixed responses.)
>(2) Having to type long commands to move. "go to kitchen" is too long.
>"kitchen" is marginal; I might put up with it in a small game, but if
>you've got 75 rooms, you'll have real difficulty inventing a short
>typeable name for each one. Particularly since the player will probably be
>moving around much more than in a five-room game.
I agree with this too, especially the part about "real difficulty
inventing a short typeable name for each one." Often, a game will have a room
that is more remarkable for what's in it than for the room itself. Thus, I
would forget the name of the room and keep wanting to type "Go to the room with
the computer in it".
The other problem, even with short names like "lounge" is that the player
might want to type synonyms ("den", "family room", etc.). If you're
implementing this by allowing the player to simply type the name of a room
(without an initial verb), then you either have to hard-code all the synonyms
into one dummy-verb routine, or you have to define a different verb for each
room. Neither solution is efficient to code.
The final problem is dealing with what happens if the player types "go
kitchen" and she's not anywhere near the kitchen. Do you teleport her there?
Or do you give her directions? Or do you just refuse on the grounds that you
can't foresee what's between here and there? Each of these solutions would be
inappropriate in certain situations. (For example, within the
player-character's house, it would be absurd to say "You don't know the way to
the kitchen from here.") And there are countless other problems that make such
a system either too specific to the individual game, or too tedious to program,
or both.
Irene Callaci
> The final problem is dealing with what happens if the player types "go
>kitchen" and she's not anywhere near the kitchen. Do you teleport her there?
>Or do you give her directions? Or do you just refuse on the grounds that you
>can't foresee what's between here and there? Each of these solutions would be
>inappropriate in certain situations. (For example, within the
>player-character's house, it would be absurd to say "You don't know the way to
>the kitchen from here.") And there are countless other problems that make such
>a system either too specific to the individual game, or too tedious to program,
>or both.
I really like Kathleen Fischer's solution to this, which I
am using in my work in progress. The player can type
>GO TO KITCHEN
and the PC gets moved one location closer to the kitchen
each time. If something interesting is happening in a
location on the way to the kitchen, the PC is free to
react to it or to ignore it and type (again)
>GO TO KITCHEN
If the player types GO TO KITCHEN enough times, the PC
eventually arrives in the kitchen. It's not a lot of code,
and it works well, especially if you leave the NSWE directions
in there, too. You can decide whether to allow it to work
with all locations or just those that have already been
visited or any combination of the two. Nifty.
irene
Jim Aikin
Andrew Williams wrote:
> On a sidenote, does anyone know what the nautical equivalents of NE, NW,
> SE, and SW are? I have been trying to find out for a while but I am not
> really sure where to look. Any knowledgeable help appreciated.
My dad taught me that when I was about 5, but unfortunately that was 45
years ago. As I recall, if you're facing the bow (oh, let's not start
that again...), 45 degrees to your left is the port beam and 45 degrees
to the right is the starboard beam. 135 degrees to the left is the port
quarter, and 135 degrees to the right is the starboard quarter. Or maybe
I've got quarter and beam mixed up, but I have a dim racial memory that
those are the correct terms.
--Jim (yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!) Aikin
Larry Smith
> >... but compass directions are an inoffensive compromise that's
> >widespread because it WORKS.
> I agree. As has been suggested before, I believe that compass directions
> can often be viewed as convenient reference points, rather than as "toward the
> north pole" per se.
One could simply use the keypad rose for directions and
ignore the issue. 8 could be north, south, or whatever,
in the current game, but it designated the direction
opposite to 2. Likewise, 7 and 3, 4 and 6, 1 and 9.
Best of all, they are mnemonic on the keypad, and are
all one character. One could even dispense with the
hitting of "return" for a line indicating simply motion,
relying on the fact that a line with a number designating
a quantity won't start with a digit.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Never, ever underestimate
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | the power of stupid people
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | in large groups.
My opinions only. |
Jonathan Lennox
Tyson Boucher <bou...@REMOVEeuropaREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Also, I'm not entirely sure what IF authors
>would do with compass directions if a game were set near one of the magnetic
>might just ignore that issue, and keep the map roughly gridlike, because the
>compass in IF is often not literal.
Didn't Leather Goddesses of Phobos have a location at the Martian south
pole? I remember the description "paths lead north, north, and north," but
I don't remember how it was actually handled.
Of course, Leather Goddesses could get away with things that you couldn't
have in a more serious game.
--
Jonathan Lennox
j...@eyrie.org
Martin Guy
Jim Aikin wrote:
> 45 degrees to your left is the port beam and 45 degrees
> to the right is the starboard beam. 135 degrees to the left is the port
> quarter, and 135 degrees to the right is the starboard quarter. Or maybe
> I've got quarter and beam mixed up, but I have a dim racial memory that
> those are the correct terms.
I think you've got it wrong. 45 degrees is "X bow", 90 degrees is the "X
beam", 135 degrees is indeed the "X quarter".
Greetings to all from a first-time poster.
Martin
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Are you suggesting that every game should have "landmark" directions (like
> GO KITCHEN)?
Not exclusively. But if you're in the dining room and an open
doorway leads into the kitchen, "enter the kitchen" should work.
> Or perhaps you're just suggesting that the room description be more like
> this: "You're in a large, well-lighted room, which is strangely unfurnished. A
> small, unimposing door leads off to the west, and there's an important-looking
> doorway pointing east. To the south is a flight of rickety stairs, leading
> down."
That's better...
> >Use words. Words are your friends. That includes adjectives and
> >adverbs.
> . . .which are useful for describing doors and doorways, where you don't
> have much choice in the way of nouns. But it also includes nouns and verbs,
Yes, I said "includes", which is not exclusive.
> which come in handy when you need a little variety. They allow you to call a
> "painting" a "portrait", a "landscape", an "oil canvas", etc.
You can do this with exits also, to an extent.
> >Directional terms don't add much to the vividness of the game.
> No they don't, but they're the easiest, simplest, and least confusing way
> to tell the player where she can go.
Yes, I suppose that's true.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Ah. Not always. While I'm aware that over on that side of the pond
> you're a little thin on history [1], you will find that most if not
> all UKoGBaNI churches are aligned E-W along their longer axis.
That is far from universal. I believe only Roman Catholics,
Anglicans, and a handful of the more liberal Protestant
denominations observe that.
> There
> are religious reasons for this, IIRC[2]
Religious, perhaps. Not religious in a specifically
Christian sense, however. Certainly not Biblical.
Mostly historical or political, I believe.
> , but this tends to have been
> binned in more modern times for reasons more along the lines of 'fitting
> the building into the available land'.
The early church met in buildings that were already there, not
built specifically for the church. The notion to make church
buildings point a certain way came later and is pretty much limited
to Europe.
> [1] Flame-proof suit firmly donned by this point.
Understood.
> [2] But I'm buggered if I can remember exactly what they are
They fall into the same category with the reason a minister
can't be married (in the Catholic church).
> [5] Hill(n) - anything more than 3 inches
I didn't know you were from northern Indiana!
Simon 'tufty' Stapleton
> s.sta...@easynet.co.uk (Simon 'tufty' Stapleton) wrote:
>
> > most if not
> > all UKoGBaNI churches are aligned E-W along their longer axis.
>
> That is far from universal. I believe only Roman Catholics,
> Anglicans, and a handful of the more liberal Protestant
> denominations observe that.
OK. Over here, the dominant religion - i.e. the 'state' religion -
is the Church of England. Anglican. Apart from the new churches
that the happy-clappy members of the General Synod seem to be
foisting on us, the majority of churches used by the CoE are
genuine historical monuments[1] - for example, in the village where
I was brought up, the church was 14th century. Built over an 11th
century church that was destroyed by fire. And this is far from
exceptional. The surrounding villages had churches of a similar
vintage. This is pretty general in the English countryside.
We also had a baptist chapel, which fitted its plot neatly and had
no particular orientation, but that only dated back to the 1920s.
The Roman Catholic church is less powerful over here - we kinda
have a history of persecuting the catholics - but what churches
they have left after Henry tore them down are also generally old.
And aligned.
Other, younger, offshoots of Christianity may well not align their
buildings, but that's because they're younger. We have old religion
here.
> The early church met in buildings that were already there, not
> built specifically for the church. The notion to make church
> buildings point a certain way came later and is pretty much limited
> to Europe.
Yes, but this rather depends on your definition of 'early church'.
Over here, we're talking a church that started building dedicated
churches in the middle ages or earlier. Often on top of sites of
worship used by older religions, which aligned sites for their own
purposes. I'd say making churches point a certain way is pretty
damn early. Limited to Europe, maybe, but early.
> > But I'm buggered if I can remember exactly what they are
>
> They fall into the same category with the reason a minister
> can't be married (in the Catholic church).
Oh, absolutely. Nothing in the book that says churches _have_
to be aligned that way. Someone else posted regarding the sun
coming through the big windows at morning mass, which I seem to
recall is one of the reasons. Especially when you consider the
previous point about building on older religious site, and that
those religions seemed to align their sites with the rising or
setting sun [2]. If you're trying to convert people from one
religion to another, it's a neat idea to use some of their concepts
to ease the process. It's no coincidence that Christmas falls at
the same time as the older midwinter celebrations and uses much
of the same symbolism, after all.
All this was probably less of a consideration in the 'new world',
where there seems to have been less of an emphasis on converting
the natives to a new religion[3].
> > Hill(n) - anything more than 3 inches
>
> I didn't know you were from northern Indiana!
Hell no! I come from (close to) the lowest point in England. 40
feet below sea level[4] and proud of it!
Now, TWIAVBP, and I can accept that churches over your side of the
pond are non-aligned, but as I said before, you have a short, if
bloody, history. Historically, churches do tend to align E-W,
even if they don't do it now.
Simon "not religious, pedantic" Stapleton
{1] Not that it stops the buggers selling them off for development
into flats, or having them 'accidentally go on fire' and
selling the land just freed for development of supermarkets.
[2] Feel free to postulate the reasons for this.
[3] And I'm _not_ about to get into the whole 'colonists slaughter
natives' argument here. Nuff said.
[4] Ramsey Forty Foot was just down the road. It's probably closer
to 50 feet under now, what with the peat shrinkage.
Nick Sonneveld
Unsightly One) wrote:
>Daniel Barkalow <iabe...@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> For a while I've been wanting to write a game set on the
>> three-dimensional surface of a small four-dimensional sphere, such that
>
>Say,....
>
>Why not have the game take place on the four-dimensional surface of a
>five-dimensional object? Then the AUTHOR could get confused trying
>to play the game...
Sounds like the stuff my maths teacher talks about when he
"digresses"... :-)
- Nick
Kathleen M. Fischer
> OK. Over here, the dominant religion - i.e. the 'state' religion -
> is the Church of England. Anglican. Apart from the new churches
> that the happy-clappy members of the General Synod seem to be
> foisting on us, the majority of churches used by the CoE are
> genuine historical monuments[1] - for example, in the village where
> I was brought up, the church was 14th century. Built over an 11th
> century church that was destroyed by fire.
>
> have a history of persecuting the catholics - but what churches
> they have left after Henry tore them down are also generally old.
> And aligned.
>
> Other, younger, offshoots of Christianity may well not align their
> buildings, but that's because they're younger. We have old religion
> here.
My history is admitably rather sketchy, but if your church was built
in the 14th century that it, too, would orginially have been Roman
Catholic, right? Henry VIII reigning in the first half of the 16th
century?
Kathleen (all too familiar with modern ugly churches)
--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov (nospam = l l n l) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **
Kathleen M. Fischer
> I really like Kathleen Fischer's solution to this, which I
> am using in my work in progress. The player can type
>
> >GO TO KITCHEN
>
> and the PC gets moved one location closer to the kitchen
> each time.
> If the player types GO TO KITCHEN enough times, the PC
> eventually arrives in the kitchen.
I actually perfer to use the up-arrow key, which brings me to the
question:
Is the up-arrow key (or some other easy to use, history retrieving
equivalent) implemented on all interpreters?
Kathleen
Daniel Barkalow
> Daniel Barkalow <iabe...@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote
> > For a while I've been wanting to write a game set on the
> > three-dimensional surface of a small four-dimensional sphere, such that
> > you can walk around a bit and return to the same place, except with the
> > directions rotated.
>
> Why do you think that the directions would be rotated? The 3-manifold
> that you are describing has no such property. If, however, you were to use
> the 3-d projective space, then you would have a problem similar to that.
I'm assuming the player doesn't actually have a compass that gives
directions based on the location, but is doing things based on counting
turns. If the player makes three 90 degree right turns while walking a
short distance, the player will be surprised to be facing the initial
direction in the initial location. They will then think the orientation
of the world has changed.
> Also, since the surface of a 4-d hypersphere is 3-d you would have to
> somehow be able to go up and down as well as north, south, east, and west.
Assuming they had something to climb, yes. The odd thing is when they get
to the "top", where gravity points in all directions away from a point.
I'm assuming that gravity, and up and down, are determined by the
location, and thus don't get messed with as the player moves around in
surprising ways.
Joshua Waxman
> I agree with this too, especially the part about "real difficulty
> inventing a short typeable name for each one." Often, a game will have a room
> that is more remarkable for what's in it than for the room itself. Thus, I
> would forget the name of the room and keep wanting to type "Go to the room with
> the computer in it".
> The other problem, even with short names like "lounge" is that the player
> might want to type synonyms ("den", "family room", etc.). If you're
> implementing this by allowing the player to simply type the name of a room
> (without an initial verb), then you either have to hard-code all the synonyms
> into one dummy-verb routine, or you have to define a different verb for each
> room. Neither solution is efficient to code.
How about this solution to both the "short typable name" problem and the
synonym problem, as well as the "wanting to identify by memorable item
problem":
Add the verb "map" which will load a menu of all reachable locations for
each major area (for example, in the house, locations will be basement,
outside, kitchen, bedroom, bathroom. Once outside, map will present all
reachable locations in the town.) Leave nswe for players who don't want to
use map. You need not use synonyms since each item in the menu is uniquely
identifyable and the player dows not have to type the location name.
The menu item might also include major memorable items or a short
description.
An additional benefit is that you can have 5 houses, each will have
kitchens, and you need not identify each kitchen separately or parse
kitchen based on location. Kitchen will lead to the appropriate room in
each house.
Josh Waxman
Jim Aikin
You may be right.
While we're on the subject, does anybody feel like implementing a full
nautical compass rose? Like, between NE and N is NNE, and between NE and
E is ENE.
So far, so good. But what's 45 degrees between N and U? NU? And what if
it's only 22-1/2 degrees up from the horizontal? Is that NNU? And what
if it's 22-1/2 degrees up from ENE? That would be, umm, ENEENEU, or
possibly ENEUENE, while 67-1/2 degrees up from ENE would be UUENE. Or
something.
I think personally this would be a real improvement over 'left',
'right', 'forward', and 'back'. With any luck, the player will just give
up and stay in one room, and we'll never have to code the rest of the
landscape!
--Jim Aikin
BrenBarn
>each major area (for example, in the house, locations will be basement,
>outside, kitchen, bedroom, bathroom. Once outside, map will present all
>reachable locations in the town.) Leave nswe for players who don't want to
>use map. You need not use synonyms since each item in the menu is uniquely
>identifyable and the player dows not have to type the location name.
graphical adventure games, but not in text games. Not having used it, I can't
really say, but some gut feeling tells me that it might somehow seem intrusive.
Of course, then you just use NSEW as you suggested. . . Yeah, overall, this
sounds workable. Nicely flexible. I probably wouldn't implement it myself,
but I don't think I'd be annoyed playing a game that did use it.
Nick Sonneveld
wrote:
>BrenBarn wrote:
>
>> >... but compass directions are an inoffensive compromise that's
>> >widespread because it WORKS.
>> I agree. As has been suggested before, I believe that compass directions
>> can often be viewed as convenient reference points, rather than as "toward the
>> north pole" per se.
>
>One could simply use the keypad rose for directions and
>ignore the issue. 8 could be north, south, or whatever,
>in the current game, but it designated the direction
>opposite to 2. Likewise, 7 and 3, 4 and 6, 1 and 9.
>Best of all, they are mnemonic on the keypad, and are
>all one character. One could even dispense with the
>hitting of "return" for a line indicating simply motion,
>relying on the fact that a line with a number designating
>a quantity won't start with a digit.
So instead you get:
"To the 6, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
house's airlock is open to the 8. If you really want to stretch out
and relax, your personal automated massage table is to the 4. Your
ever-smiling, hard working wife stands to the 4 of you".
:-)
- Nick
Torbjörn Andersson
> Irene Callaci wrote
[snip]
> > If the player types GO TO KITCHEN enough times, the PC
> > eventually arrives in the kitchen.
>
> I actually perfer to use the up-arrow key, which brings me to the
> question:
>
> Is the up-arrow key (or some other easy to use, history retrieving
> equivalent) implemented on all interpreters?
I wouldn't count on it, but there's always the AGAIN, command.
But I prefer the way Suspect, if I recall correctly, worked. There,
you could simply press RETURN/ENTER to continue towards your
destination.
Torbjörn
BrenBarn
>house's airlock is open to the 8. If you really want to stretch out
>and relax, your personal automated massage table is to the 4. Your
>ever-smiling, hard working wife stands to the 4 of you".
>
>:-)
smiley that it was intended as a joke (and indeed I took it as such), I must
now adopt an anal attitude to put forth an opinion. (Sorry! :-S)
If you really think about it, the ONLY reason this is so ludicrous is
because numbers are substituted for words. If you keep thinking about it, you
realize that the only reason we expect certain words to be there is because. .
. well. . . we just expect certain words to be there. There's no moral
justification or anything. It's just convention.
And that's why I think this whole discussion is kind of strange (although
maybe that's only since I joined in :-). All we're really discussing is what
NAMES to call the directions by. Sure, if we use left/right strictly, the
names change from time to time, but in any case, we're not really altering
anything; we're just altering the interface. (Landmark directions, a la "go
kitchen", could possibly be exceptions to this, depending on how they're
implemented.)
Ultimately, it's not just about realism; it's about weighing the benefits
of realism against the programming and understand difficulties. This is a sad
statement as far as pure aesthetics go. (I lament it myself; I'm an advocate
of pure aesthetics.) But I think that's largely because of the medium we're
working in. In a book, virtually the only conventions people universally
follow are that they use one language and relatively normal sentence structure.
(Even this convention has been violated, say in _Finnegan's Wake_.) In IF,
though, you have to consider the interface, a problem not present in normal
writing. The interface forms an extra obstacle that must be overcome as the
author strives to reach the player.
The easiest way to surmount this problem is to crush the interface under
your heel by making it so familiar that it forms the smallest possible barrier.
The realization of this is, I believe, what has led to the relatively recent
trend of distaste for mazes, guess-the-verb puzzles, and other interface-level
constructions.
It's a trade-off. If you want realism and flexibility, you risk a
confusing interface. If you want an intuitive interface, you risk realism and
flexibility. In my totally unqualified opinion, it's up to the individual game
author to decide how to make his game, and then it's up to the individual
player to decide whether or not to play it.
(And it's up to me to apologize for this most inexcusable of my rambles.
Is there such a thing as rec.philosophy.int-fiction? :-)
Kathleen M. Fischer
>
> "Kathleen M. Fischer" <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
>
> > Irene Callaci wrote
> > > eventually arrives in the kitchen.
> >
> > I actually perfer to use the up-arrow key
>
> you could simply press RETURN/ENTER to continue towards your
> destination.
Interesting... I wonder how hard that would be do to do?
larry_n...@my-deja.com
sonn...@hotmail.com (Nick Sonneveld) wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:32:08 -0400, Larry Smith <l...@zk3.dec.com>
> wrote:
> >BrenBarn wrote:
> >> >... but compass directions are an inoffensive compromise that's
> >> >widespread because it WORKS.
> >> I agree. As has been suggested before, I believe that compass
directions
> >> can often be viewed as convenient reference points, rather than as
"toward the
> >> north pole" per se.
> >One could simply use the keypad rose for directions and
> >ignore the issue.
> So instead you get:
> "To the 6, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
> house's airlock is open to the 8. If you really want to stretch out
> and relax, your personal automated massage table is to the 4. Your
> ever-smiling, hard working wife stands to the 4 of you".
"Living Room: The main living area of your bubble. From
here is the kitchen(6), and the house's main airlock(8).
Your personal automated massage table(4) is also here.
Your hard-working wife is in the massage table (4)."
Using numbers is slightly more intrusive in a text
description than north, south, east, etc - but only
because we are not used to using numbers for such.
Nevertheless, as a convention in text adventures,
they have a lot to recommend them over n,s,e, etc.
once people are used to them. They can be kept
consist (the numbers form a mnemonic rose) they
can be kept discrete(3) they can be rotated with
a simple algorithm, they require but one keystroke
which is easily distinguished from the first char-
acter of a command line. (5) can mean "enter" for
staircases up or down, or entryways. They are also
value-neutral in that they can be used for navigation
reasonably in any context, so debates like fore/aft,
north/south and so on become redundant.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Never, ever underestimate
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | the power of stupid people
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | in large groups.
My opinions only. |
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Nick Sonneveld
>>"To the 6, you see the door to the kitchen. The entranceway to your
>>house's airlock is open to the 8. If you really want to stretch out
>>and relax, your personal automated massage table is to the 4. Your
>>ever-smiling, hard working wife stands to the 4 of you".
>>
>>:-)
> I laughed out loud when I read this! :-D Although I infer from your
>smiley that it was intended as a joke (and indeed I took it as such), I must
>now adopt an anal attitude to put forth an opinion. (Sorry! :-S)
I'll forgive you.
> (And it's up to me to apologize for this most inexcusable of my rambles.
>Is there such a thing as rec.philosophy.int-fiction? :-)
Actually, I think it sums up what I thought about the entire thread so
you weren't THAT bad :-)
- Nick
Dylan O'Donnell
> Torbjörn Andersson wrote:
> > But I prefer the way Suspect, if I recall correctly, worked. There,
> > you could simply press RETURN/ENTER to continue towards your
> > destination.
>
> Interesting... I wonder how hard that would be do to do?
[checks Subject:; we are still talking about Inform, good]
I imagine the easiest thing to do would be to tweak LibraryMessages,
Miscellany 10 (default, "I beg your pardon?"); it's not as simple
as just redirecting it to <<Again>>, though, since that's handled
by parser special-casing, not as an action. You'd probably just want
a global variable saying where and if the player is GOING TO, and
have a routine for Miscellany 10 do the Right Thing for that.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell : "Houston, Taurus base here. The Othello :
: Forgotten Office, Demon : has landed." :
: http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : -- Graham Nelson, "Jigsaw" :
Jesse Welton
Jim Aikin <jaikin....@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>While we're on the subject, does anybody feel like implementing a full
>nautical compass rose? Like, between NE and N is NNE, and between NE and
>E is ENE.
> EXAMINE WALL
Which wall do you mean, the north wall, the north-northeast wall, the
northeast wall, the east-northeast wall, the east wall, the
east-southeast wall, the southeast wall, the south-southeast wall, the
south wall, the south-southwest wall, the southwest wall, the
west-southwest wall, the west wall, the west-northwest wall, the
northwest wall, the north-northwest wall, or the granite wall?
-Jesse Welton
Erik Max Francis
> One could simply use the keypad rose for directions and
> ignore the issue. 8 could be north, south, or whatever,
> in the current game, but it designated the direction
> opposite to 2. Likewise, 7 and 3, 4 and 6, 1 and 9.
> Best of all, they are mnemonic on the keypad, and are
> all one character.
This isn't a great idea, since not all keyboards have keypads, and even
those that do (say for laptops) are contained in the standard keyboard
itself, and have to be turned on with a toggle, making the player unable
to type normal words while the numlock key is toggled (not to mention
the fact that they're not terribly well aligned in these cases).
Certainly it should never be relied upon as required.
> One could even dispense with the
> hitting of "return" for a line indicating simply motion,
> relying on the fact that a line with a number designating
> a quantity won't start with a digit.
Having an exception like this seems somewhat obnoxious. At the very
most, perhaps those keys should map to "macro-like" entities that paste
in the commands (without hitting CR) -- if you don't have the keys, they
don't do anything of course, and you're back to your standard game
interface.
You could map all the cardinal and ordinal directions, as well as
up/down, and in/out (choose 0 and . for in/out, and -/+ for up/down, or
some combination).
--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon@efnet / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
/ \__ \
\__/ \ / Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
\__/ / Dr. Sidney Freedman
Adam J. Thornton
for at least some of the game.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits
Daniel Barkalow
> "Living Room: The main living area of your bubble. From
> here is the kitchen(6), and the house's main airlock(8).
> Your personal automated massage table(4) is also here.
>
> Your hard-working wife is in the massage table (4)."
This reminds me, in a way, of the book _Maze_. I think I like it more
than NESW, since it lets you refer to the particular passageway you are
going through, and needn't be limited to three opennings to the north. E.g.,
"Along one side of the hall are a row of doors(8a-f). One of them(8c) is
open, and from inside you hear the sound of a fan."
> Using numbers is slightly more intrusive in a text
> description than north, south, east, etc - but only
> because we are not used to using numbers for such.
Really? I'm from MIT, where 6.001 is in 10-250 at 10:00, so I guess I
find it more sensible to see things refered to by number. Also, having
looked at TinyMOO, where everything has a unique number visible to the
players, and debugged inform, and thus seen numbers for things, it makes
sense to have these appear somewhat in the interface.
About the navigation thing: I think it would be valuable to distinguish
exploration and navigation. In the former, you really are walking in
various directions because there's a way to gothat might lead where you
want to go. In the latter, you know where you're going and essentially
walk without really thinking about it until you're there. IF, being
descended (in interface, at least) from Adventure and Zork, generally
implements the former, even when only the latter really makes much sense.
To a certain extent, typing directions in sufficiently like walking that
an experienced player will navigate through the places automatically,
just like they'll walk automatically through their house. But this doesn't
let games deal effectively with characters who know places well that the
player does not. For such situations, I think a named room system with a
list of rooms is best.
There is also the opposite situation: places which the player knows that
the character should not. For these, the numbers could be randomized each
game, forcing the player to actually look at the description to tell
where stuff is. This is only fair in situations where the player and
character can both be lost and still make progress.
Ross Presser
Barkalow).wrote.posted.offered:
>On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 larry_n...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> "Living Room: The main living area of your bubble. From
>> here is the kitchen(6), and the house's main airlock(8).
>> Your personal automated massage table(4) is also here.
>>
>> Your hard-working wife is in the massage table (4)."
>
>This reminds me, in a way, of the book _Maze_. I think I like it more
>than NESW, since it lets you refer to the particular passageway you are
>going through, and needn't be limited to three opennings to the north.
E.g.,
>
>"Along one side of the hall are a row of doors(8a-f). One of them(8c) is
>open, and from inside you hear the sound of a fan."
>
>> Using numbers is slightly more intrusive in a text
>> description than north, south, east, etc - but only
>> because we are not used to using numbers for such.
>
>Really? I'm from MIT, where 6.001 is in 10-250 at 10:00, so I guess I
>find it more sensible to see things refered to by number. Also, having
>looked at TinyMOO, where everything has a unique number visible to the
>players, and debugged inform, and thus seen numbers for things, it makes
>sense to have these appear somewhat in the interface.
Putting numbers in the text in a sense sends IF back to the days of Hunt
The Wumpus, where rooms had ONLY numbers and no description...
Erik Max Francis
> If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to
> invent
> your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some
> other
> such borderline nonsense.
Since when is nonsense a good idea in _any_ kind of writing, interactive
or not?
--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon@efnet / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
/ \__ \
\__/ \ / Only the winners decide what were war crimes.
\__/ / Gary Wills
Daniel Giaimo
news:37A10706...@alcyone.com...
> Don Rae wrote:
>
> > If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to
> > invent
> > your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some
> > other
> > such borderline nonsense.
>
> Since when is nonsense a good idea in _any_ kind of writing, interactive
> or not?
I suppose you don't like "Jabberwocky", then. Hmm?
--
--Daniel Giaimo
Remove nospam. from my address to e-mail me. |
dgiaimo@(nospam.)ix.netcom.com
^^^^^^^^^<-(Remove)
|--------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK--------| Ros: I don't believe in it anyway.
|Version: 3.1 |
|GM d-() s+:+++ a--- C++ UIA P+>++++ | Guil: What?
|L E--- W+ N++ o? K w>--- !O M-- V-- |
|PS? PE? Y PGP- t+(*) 5 X+ R- tv+(-) | Ros: England.
|b+@ DI++++ D--- G e(*)>++++ h->++ !r |
|!y->+++ | Guil: Just a conspiracy of
|---------END GEEK CODE BLOCK---------| cartographers, you mean?
Erik Max Francis
> I suppose you don't like "Jabberwocky", then. Hmm?
I have no problem with "Jabberwocky." He was playing around. If it was
a whole novel (or interactive fiction piece) of that, I'd be thoroughly
annoyed with it by the end, I'm sure.
Don Rae
approaches and methods, some practical, and some not as practical.
I would suspect that the not-as-practical approaches might be a subject for
an entire unique game experience, ala the "turn left, now look and tell me
what you see in this direction". I agree that this might confuse the
accustomed IF player, but then again, it may be an experience all to itself
if taken directly as such. Interesting questions arise, if examining this
angle a bit further:
If you turn left, how far do you really?
What is your plane of vision, really?
Are you wearing blinders, perhaps, limiting your field of vision?
If you move forward, how does your current perspective change with respect
to non-45 degree angle "rooms"
etc etc....Very interesting, and no doubt, a major headache for the
designer.
Regarding Aft, fore, etc - nautical directions - they seem practical for the
human directional experience. I can't think of a better way to do this, if
describing the interior of a ship, sailing or space.
If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to invent
your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some other
such borderline nonsense.
- Don
Jonathan Lennox
Jonathan Lennox <j...@eyrie.org> wrote:
>Didn't Leather Goddesses of Phobos have a location at the Martian south
>pole? I remember the description "paths lead north, north, and north," but
>I don't remember how it was actually handled.
Following up my own post.
<transcript>
>l
South Pole
You are standing near the front stoop of a very large igloo. Its door is
flanked by a faded sign and a barred window. Paths lead north, north and north.
>s
This is as far south as you can go!
>e
You walk in a tight circle, returning to your starting point.
>w
You walk in a tight circle, returning to your starting point.
>n
Gypsy Camp
</transcript>
This isn't *really* solving the "compass grid at a south pole" problem, of
course, since there's only one location to the north. But it's an
interesting take on/parody of the N/S/E/W conventions.
--
Jonathan Lennox
j...@eyrie.org
Dylan O'Donnell
> If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to invent
> your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some other
> such borderline nonsense.
cf. _The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by
Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
disc-shaped world.
Erik Max Francis
> cf. _The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by
> Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
> hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
> disc-shaped world.
On a Niven ring, the logical directions would be inward, outward,
spinward, antispinward, and rimward (for the direction to the nearest
rim, which may be either inward or outward depending on your location).
In Niven's Smoke Ring, the directions are in, out, east (in the
direction of the spin), west (opposite to east), north (up when facing
inward and oriented so that east is to the right), and south (opposite
of north). Near the tufts of the integral trees, you also have windward
and leeward.
Jake Wildstrom
Daniel Barkalow <iabe...@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote:
>Really? I'm from MIT, where 6.001 is in 10-250 at 10:00, so I guess I
>find it more sensible to see things refered to by number. Also, having
>looked at TinyMOO, where everything has a unique number visible to the
>players, and debugged inform, and thus seen numbers for things, it makes
>sense to have these appear somewhat in the interface.
Building 10, Second Floor
Out over the balcony to the 2, you can see the usual student groups and noonday
bustle on the first floor. Set in the 8 wall are the elevator doors, or you
could curve around to the 7 or 9 to enter 10-250. To the 6 lies Building 4, and
off to the 4 you can see Building 3.
Hm. There's something to be said for TOO MANY numbers.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jake Wildstrom
Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:
>Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
>> cf. _The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by
>> Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
>> hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
>> disc-shaped world.
>In Niven's Smoke Ring, the directions are in, out, east (in the
>direction of the spin), west (opposite to east), north (up when facing
>inward and oriented so that east is to the right), and south (opposite
>of north). Near the tufts of the integral trees, you also have windward
>and leeward.
I'm reminded at this point of Brainscape, which was not a very good game, but
did incorporae the unambiguous and rather appropriate directions dorsal,
ventral, rostral, caudal, lateral, and medial. And all of these except
"lateral" had nice abbreviations too.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Andrew Plotkin
>
>> If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to
>> invent
>> your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some
>> other
>> such borderline nonsense.
>
> or not?
Never, except when it's exactly the *right* idea.
One of my favorite book titles of all time -- never published,
unfortunately -- is _Shen the Tecton_. If you've read the earlier books in
the series, you know what it means, and why it's much too obscene to be a
publishable book title... in the universe of the story, anyway.
(In *this* universe, it's unpublished just because the authors never got
around to writing it.)
And, of course, the first time you encounter the words "shen" or "Tecton"
in that series, they're nonsense.
Also: In Mary Gentle's _Rats and Gargoyles_, there are five compass
directions. At ninety-degree angles to each other. North, south, east,
aust, and west. This is never explained, but it's a lovely touch, in the
Masonic-Hermetic world of that story.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Gareth Rees
> Also: In Mary Gentle's "Rats and Gargoyles" (1991), there are five
> compass directions. At ninety-degree angles to each other. North,
> south, east, aust, and west. This is never explained, but it's a
> lovely touch, in the Masonic-Hermetic world of that story.
A lovely touch, but not original. Samuel Delany's "Stars in my Pocket
like Grains of Sand" (1984) has a planet with five compass directions
(the extra one is "oest", and appears between south and west).
--
Gareth Rees
Matthew T. Russotto
Dylan O'Donnell <dyl...@demon.net> wrote:
}"Don Rae" <don...@telusplanet.net> writes:
}> If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to invent
}> your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some other
}> such borderline nonsense.
}
}Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
}hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
}disc-shaped world.
Or Niven's "The Integral Trees" and "The Smoke Ring" -- "East takes
you out, out takes you west, west takes you in and in takes you east.
North and south bring you back" Or "Port and starboard bring you
back". Very confusing for just about anyone living on solid ground.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Adam J. Thornton
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@netcom.com> wrote:
>One of my favorite book titles of all time -- never published,
>unfortunately -- is _Shen the Tecton_. If you've read the earlier books in
>the series, you know what it means, and why it's much too obscene to be a
>publishable book title... in the universe of the story, anyway.
Yup. *I* was shenning the tecton the other day, and I Zarffed all over my
keyboard. Took me two hours, three bottles of Scotch, and a plate of
grignr to clean it up.
Andrew Plotkin
*Does* it. Hunh.
I've ready the Delaney, but it was ten years ago, and I don't rememer
that. I'm certain Gentle did, of course.
She was playing all sorts of games in that book.
Sandsquish
<<_The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett, [...]
uses the direction system established therein: hubward, rimward, turnwise and
widdershins. Very logical for a disc-shaped world.>>
The residents of the island of Oahu use the terms makai (towards the ocean),
mauka (inland), leeward (west or southwest), windward (east or northeast), Ewa
(towards a point west of Honolulu) and Diamond Head (towards a point southeast
of Waikiki).
Walt
Daniel Barkalow
> Putting numbers in the text in a sense sends IF back to the days of Hunt
> The Wumpus, where rooms had ONLY numbers and no description...
Hardly; those days were marked by the lack of descriptions, not the use
of numbers. There was a game of that era (whose name I cannot recall) that
used NESW to move around, had no descriptions, and was hardly more
advanced in IF-like ways (it had proto-roguelike features, though).
Using numbers to refer to things means you lose the descriptions of those
things. But "north", "south", etc. don't have much description,
particularly if we've agreed that the player doesn't have a compass and
is not talking about the real directions.
If the goal is to make the directions as inobtrusive as possible, so that
the descriptions can focus on what the stuff is, rather than where it is,
I think undescriptive labels are perfectly good.
Don Rae
>cf. _The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by
>Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
>hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
>disc-shaped world.
>
You know, that sounds logical to me. It's more convincing, since it is
based upon environment as well.
- Don
Erik Max Francis
> Or Niven's "The Integral Trees" and "The Smoke Ring" -- "East takes
> you out, out takes you west, west takes you in and in takes you east.
> North and south bring you back"
Nothing like a little orbital mechanics for breakfast.
> Or "Port and starboard bring you
> back".
In _The integral trees_ both north and south as well as port and
starboard were defined and used; in the sequel, _The Smoke Ring_, only
north and south were. I guess Niven realized that port and starboard
were confusing and ambiguous, whereas north and south were at least
_somewhat_ relatable to something familiar. (North is along the angular
momentum vector of the Smoke Ring.)
--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon@efnet / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
/ \__ \
\__/ \ / I'll have to get over this sooner or later. Why not now?
\__/ / Louis Wu
Don Rae
>
>The residents of the island of Oahu use the terms makai (towards the
ocean),
>mauka (inland), leeward (west or southwest), windward (east or northeast),
Ewa
>(towards a point west of Honolulu) and Diamond Head (towards a point
southeast
>of Waikiki).
>
Now this one makes a lot of sense to me too. Very logical, given the
environment.
It seems that environment has a lot to do with the directional feedback.
Care must be taken, in IF, to ensure that the player understands this, and
why he/she needs to understand it....especially if the IF in question is
specific to an environment setting.
- Don
Ross Presser
>Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
>
><<_The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by Terry
><<Pratchett, [...]
>uses the direction system established therein: hubward, rimward,
>turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a disc-shaped world.>>
>
>The residents of the island of Oahu use the terms makai (towards the
>ocean), mauka (inland), leeward (west or southwest), windward (east or
>northeast), Ewa (towards a point west of Honolulu) and Diamond Head
>(towards a point southeast of Waikiki).
>
>Walt
>
Somewhere in the Jargon File, it mentions that "logical north" was once
used to mean the direction towards MIT. (Or perhaps it was Stanford). In
other words, considering the college as a pole. Thus traveling due east
would take you in a circle around the college. :)
Don Rae
>> EXAMINE WALL
>Which wall do you mean, the north wall, the north-northeast wall, the
>northeast wall, the east-northeast wall, the east wall, the
>east-southeast wall, the southeast wall, the south-southeast wall, the
>south wall, the south-southwest wall, the southwest wall, the
>west-southwest wall, the west wall, the west-northwest wall, the
>northwest wall, the north-northwest wall, or the granite wall?
>
>
Oy yoy yoy.
This would be a one heck of one room puzzle, but it sure would suck if it
was done for every room description.
R. Alan Monroe
>"Don Rae" <don...@telusplanet.net> writes:
>> If I were aiming for a science fiction plot, it is quite possible to invent
>> your own terminology, I suppose. "Walk blarg" or "Walk wack" or some other
>> such borderline nonsense.
>
>Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
>hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
>disc-shaped world.
ObIF: Wasn't "widdershins" used as a character name in
one of those Graham Clueley (sp?) text adventure games for
DOS? And aren't those games now freely distributable?
Have fun
Alan
Iain Merrick
> In article <m3r9lqy...@curmudgeon.home.miggy.org>,
> Dylan O'Donnell <dyl...@demon.net> wrote:
[...]
> }cf. _The Colour of Magic_, based on the Discworld books by
> }Terry Pratchett, which uses the direction system established therein:
> }hubward, rimward, turnwise and widdershins. Very logical for a
> }disc-shaped world.
>
> Or Niven's "The Integral Trees" and "The Smoke Ring" -- "East takes
> you out, out takes you west, west takes you in and in takes you east.
> North and south bring you back" Or "Port and starboard bring you
> back". Very confusing for just about anyone living on solid ground.
Didn't Pratchett's Discworld start off as a spoof of Niven's stuff?
He used the flat-earth idea in an earlier book called _Strata_, which is
a clever spoof of _Ringworld_. I actually read _Strata_ first, and
thought it was much better than _Ringworld_. :)
Hm, maybe I should cross-post this to alt.fan.pratchett and ask him to
write some more SF...
--
Iain Merrick
Erik Max Francis
> There was a game of that era (whose name I cannot recall) that
> used NESW to move around, had no descriptions, and was hardly more
> advanced in IF-like ways (it had proto-roguelike features, though).
Castle of N'Dic, maybe?
There was also Castle, which was a 40-column IBM PC game that used IBM
high ASCII characters to set up a sort of cross between Roguelikes and
interactive fiction. It was quite entertaining for the time, really.
--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon@efnet / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
/ \__ \
\__/ \ / The cost of living has gone up another dollar a quart.
\__/ / W.C. Fields
Note: My newsfeed is currently misbehaving, so if you want to be
assured I'll read your reply, Cc it to my email address above.