A Pathetic Newbie Wanders In
S. John Ross
The Bio: Long-time Infocom (and Adventure-Games in general) junkie, makes
his living as a writer/game designer ... But in paper games. Wants to write
IF very badly.
=============>>>>
I mean, at first. After a while, I want to write it well, but writing it
badly will be fine to start.
I have ZERO programming experience.
No, that's not true. I understand the concept of the IF/THEN and even once
did a phenomenally simplistic adventure game in BASIC that pleased me so
much I wrote another one as a sequel. Both are embarassingly bad and have
no parser at all (they're just multiple-choice). No experience with
anything beyond remedial BASIC. And I mean _remedial_.
I've enjoyed writing solo RPG adventures. These are the hardcopy cousins of
IF games, and are purely multiple-choice, but can be fun. An okay example
of my work is at
http://home.iu.net/~caroth/SJohn/Partners.htm
Just ignore the parts that mention rules or numbers and anyone can play.
Heck, I even make DOOM levels. But those don't require any actual
programming (just a sense of design). See my Secret Library for a
five-level deal for DOOM2:
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/library.htm
I don't need a quick fix. If this is a hobby that will take me a while to
learn, that's fine. I intend to live forever, and text adventures will
never die (obviously! check out the keen traffic on this newsgroup!), so
I'm in no rush. I'd be nice, however, if I could at least make a couple of
rooms that I could wander back and forth between, a few objects here and
there - within a month or two. I definitely want to do Z-Machine stuff.
And I KNOW you guys get "how do I start" posts all the time, so I apologize
for doing another one, but I promise you, once I get going, I will be an IF
author worth having helped along ;) So, point me to the relevant FAQ(s),
send me to the relevant sites, and please god help me get started. I've
wanted this for so long.
Email responses as well as posting, please. Thanks very much.
|| S. John Ross
|| Husband · Cook · Writer
|| In That Order
|| http://www.io.com/~sjohn/blue.htm · sj...@io.com
T Raymond
>
>The Bio: Long-time Infocom (and Adventure-Games in general) junkie, makes
>his living as a writer/game designer ... But in paper games. Wants to write
>IF very badly.
>=============>>>>
Welcome, there's losts of us like that :)
>I have ZERO programming experience.
This shouldn't be too much of a problem. You've got next to nothing to
confuse you between languages you know :)
>I don't need a quick fix. If this is a hobby that will take me a while to
>learn, that's fine. I intend to live forever, and text adventures will
>never die (obviously! check out the keen traffic on this newsgroup!), so
>I'm in no rush. I'd be nice, however, if I could at least make a couple of
>rooms that I could wander back and forth between, a few objects here and
>there - within a month or two. I definitely want to do Z-Machine stuff.
Ok, if you want to use z-machine I beleive that makes your choice in
languages Inform. I'm sure somebody'll tell me if that's the only one.
(ok well I guess somebody could coed up a new language to use the
z-code, but I don't know about that.)
>And I KNOW you guys get "how do I start" posts all the time, so I apologize
>for doing another one, but I promise you, once I get going, I will be an IF
>author worth having helped along ;) So, point me to the relevant FAQ(s),
>send me to the relevant sites, and please god help me get started. I've
>wanted this for so long.
<http://come.to/raiffaq> should probably answer most of your questions
and will point you to the resources that you need to program, also
tutorials, and other things that I can't think of right now.
I'm sure it won't take you a month or two to be roaming around between
a few rooms, no matter what language you decide to go with. If you
need other help, check the faq, post, have fun.
HtH
Tom
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tom Raymond adk @ usa.net
"The original professional ameteur."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JamesG
Hi S. John, long time no see...
> The Bio: Long-time Infocom (and Adventure-Games in general) junkie, makes
> his living as a writer/game designer ... But in paper games. Wants to write
> IF very badly.
> =============>>>>
>
> I mean, at first. After a while, I want to write it well, but writing it
> badly will be fine to start.
>
> I have ZERO programming experience.
<g> It's not actually that hard - I'd value plotting and writing above
programming as far as vital skills go (and I know you can do both of
those!), the libraries for languages like Inform and TADS do a lot of
the grunt work (no need to worry about things like how the parser works
at first, it's done for you...). I, with programming experience limited
to a undergrad fortran course (Ick!) had a couple of rooms to wander
round in no time, a whole spaceship in two days and it understanding
port, starboard, fore and aft not long after. I then realized that while
it was a fun trial it wasn't anything like a fun game, so I abandoned
it...
First thing you'll want to do is pick a language, I'd recommend either
TADS or Inform - Inform has a pretty great manual (which can be found at
http://www.gnelson.demon.co.uk/dman/index.html ), TADS also has a manual
( http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/tads-manual/ ) as well as a tutorial that
makes getting started really simple (in the IF archive somewhere, look
near ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads/ ). Look at the
manuals, sample game source and so on, see what you prefer, and within
no time you'll have rooms to wander round...
JamesG,
i'll even finish a game some day...
************************************************************************
* Compulsive Volunteer. Will design starships for food. *
* (-o-) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/2843 <*> *
* NOTE: My e-mail address has changed! Now jam...@jag7.freeserve.co.uk *
* (Web site is still down but will be back soon, please be patient) *
************************************************************************
R. Alan Monroe
>I'm in no rush. I'd be nice, however, if I could at least make a couple of
>rooms that I could wander back and forth between, a few objects here and
>there - within a month or two.
Go directly to
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads/manuals/tadstutorial.zip
Do not pass go, do not collect $200...
> I definitely want to do Z-Machine stuff.
Decide that after looking at this (wickedly simple, kick butt)
tutorial.
Have fun
Alan
S. John Ross
| <g> It's not actually that hard - I'd value plotting and writing above
| programming as far as vital skills go (and I know you can do both of
| those!)
From a player's perspective, a hearty "me, too" ;) But it's nice to hear
that it really IS that way. Still, it's a scary hurdle from the far end.
|, the libraries for languages like Inform and TADS do a lot of
| the grunt work (no need to worry about things like how the parser works
| at first, it's done for you...).
Oooh. That sounds promising. The Inform website mentioned libraries and
things, but didn't really say what they were (it seemed to assume I knew).
It assured me that I didn't need to be a programmer to understand, but I
had to kind of take that on faith since I did not, in fact, understand ;)
| I, with programming experience limited
| to a undergrad fortran course (Ick!) had a couple of rooms to wander
| round in no time, a whole spaceship in two days and it understanding
| port, starboard, fore and aft not long after. I then realized that while
| it was a fun trial it wasn't anything like a fun game, so I abandoned
| it...
Sounds like a start that would satisfy me. Once I have the nuts-and-bolts
skills, I can do the Swell Kickass Game after ;)
| First thing you'll want to do is pick a language, I'd recommend either
| TADS or Inform - Inform has a pretty great manual (which can be found at
| http://www.gnelson.demon.co.uk/dman/index.html ), TADS also has a manual
| ( http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/tads-manual/ ) as well as a tutorial that
| makes getting started really simple (in the IF archive somewhere, look
| near ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads/ ). Look at the
| manuals, sample game source and so on, see what you prefer, and within
| no time you'll have rooms to wander round...
It's looking like Inform is definitely the path I've chosen, since
Z-Machine is positively my goal. Wish me luck (and thanks for helping!)
--
S. John Ross
| >The Bio: Long-time Infocom (and Adventure-Games in general) junkie,
makes
| >his living as a writer/game designer ... But in paper games. Wants to
write
| >IF very badly.
| >=============>>>>
|
If only there were a few more. I'm sincerely convinced that if more
paper-game professionals were also IF junkies, the paper games would
improve. >sigh<
S. John Ross
| > I definitely want to do Z-Machine stuff.
| Decide that after looking at this (wickedly simple, kick butt)
| tutorial.
Well, I've kind of got my heart set, but I'll definitely give the TADS
tutorial a go and give it a shot at swaying me ;) Thanks.
Giacomo
I'm in the same situation. I'm starting to program in Hugo and it's actually
very intriguing. It's not easy, but willingness is the key to success, so
don't give up.
I don't know very much about Inform, infact I'm using Hugo (if you want to
take a look at it you'll find everything at www.generalcoffee.com). Looking
at source files is also a good way to learn, so frolic in the sources and
tutorials of the IF archive (ftp//:ftp.gmd.de/if-archive).
Good luck!
Kevin Forchione
illuminating to watch it progress step by step through its execution. You
can do this easily with TADS debugger. I'm not sure how effective Inform's
debugging tools are toward this end, but the displays of parser information
and object structure can be very helpful in understanding just how it all
works.
--Kevin
Giacomo <fli...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:2xRJ3.24984$nP6.2...@typhoon.libero.it...
Stacy the Procrastinating
> In article <01bf0ca9$5d519fe0$5e52e0ce@john---sandra>, "S. John Ross" <sj...@io.com> wrote:
> >I'm in no rush. I'd be nice, however, if I could at least make a couple of
> >rooms that I could wander back and forth between, a few objects here and
> >there - within a month or two.
>
> Go directly to
> ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads/manuals/tadstutorial.zip
> Do not pass go, do not collect $200...
Heh, let us Inform recruiters play too. I've found the best and simplest
system-learning guide is Inform for Beginners.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8200/contents.htm
Inform for new writers is quite useful. http://www.placet.com/int-fiction/
(and I think this is in the FAQ, but I'm not sure. It should be!)
-stacy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bookbug of the browser's bookweb
http://bookweb.simplenet.com
S. John Ross
| Heh, let us Inform recruiters play too.
Yes, please! Z-Machine is what I want :)
| I've found the best and simplest
| system-learning guide is Inform for Beginners.
| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8200/contents.htm
| Inform for new writers is quite useful.
http://www.placet.com/int-fiction/
Thanks very much!
--
Kevin Forchione
by both Infocom and Inform games. You could use the VM with other languages.
But what you're interested in is the look and feel of those old Inform
games. Inform will definitely give you that kind of package.
But the complex set of object behaviours that are exhibited in Inform games
are also available to TADS authors, apart from a very few instances (actor
grammar comes to mind). Most of us cut our teeth on Infocom games, and it's
a sort of nostalgia thing. But the history of TADS / Inform development has
been one of continuing advance. The world model involved in modern day
systems is beyond that of the classic Infocom stuff.
TADS 2.3.0 heralded a tremendous freeing up of resources for the author, and
each release through 2.5.1 has build solidly upon this approach. Besides
ADV.T there's also the WorldClass and Pianosa libraries (Someday I hope to
add ALT.T to the list!). And T3 promises to be an even greater leap, as Mike
and various collaborators examine closely the nature of the class objects,
as well as the VM operating underneath.
Inform has already begun to move beyond the Z-machine. As you examine the
various systems available to you, keep in mind that the VM is only a small
(albeit important) part of the package.
--Kevin
------------------
S. John Ross <sj...@io.com> wrote in message
news:01bf0eaa$47469360$5f6902d0@john---sandra...
David Given
"S. John Ross" <sj...@io.com> writes:
[...]
> And I KNOW you guys get "how do I start" posts all the time, so I apologize
> for doing another one, but I promise you, once I get going, I will be an IF
> author worth having helped along ;) So, point me to the relevant FAQ(s),
> send me to the relevant sites, and please god help me get started. I've
> wanted this for so long.
Other people have pointed to the various documents, so I won't.
All the IF languages work in vaguely similar ways: you create objects of
various standard types, and then modify their behaviour to add any extra
functionality. For example, most games support edible objects. So you
could create a standard edible object called "Apple", with the appropriate
descriptions set, and you need take no further action. However, if you
want it to be poisonous, you'll have to override the standard "eat" action
with your own code.
The difficulty comes in when you need to deal with interactions between
objects. For example, a puzzle of mine in an unpublished game has an
electrical appliance, and a power socket, and an extension cable. The
appliance works if it is switched on AND it's plugged into something that
provides power; the power socket only provides power if it's switched on;
the extension cable only provides power if it's plugged into the power
socket AND the socket is switched on. And then you could cut the extension
cable in half, which introduces all kinds of other problems.
The more objects you have the more complex the game gets, and the more
interactions you get. You can prick the balloon with the pin, and it
bursts. What happens if you jab it with the scissors? Or the fountain pen?
Can you blow up the rubber glove? Whenever you add a new object, you need
to think of the consequences of that object. Players are renowned for not
doing things the way the programmer intended. You don't have to worry
about such things in paper games.
Please don't let me put you off; writing IF is a lot of fun (even if, like
me, you never actually manage to release anything). It's just not easy.
Big games can take, literally, years to write (_Once and Future_...); the
programming part of it is the simplest bit.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | ACRONYM: A Contrived Reduction of
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | Nomenclature Yielding Mnemonics
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
S. John Ross
[Story-Design Stuff Snipped]
Thanks. I am well aware of the design issues, though. It's the programming
that I need to learn, as I indicated in my post.
| Whenever you add a new object, you need
| to think of the consequences of that object. Players are renowned for not
| doing things the way the programmer intended. You don't have to worry
| about such things in paper games.
If only that were so, my job would be so much easier. Catch me when I'm
doing signings at a convention sometime, and I'll buy you a drink and fill
your ear for ten hours straight telling you in detail all the dangerous
exceptions to your presumption ;) This is why paper-games (when done well)
need several re-drafts and several rounds of playtesting: People doing
unexpected things with what you introduce to the game is a universal
game-design issue in fiction-format games. When my IF games are ready to
roll, my circle of playtesters will be ready to tear them to shreds for me,
I assure you, and I won't release anything to the public until appropriate
playtesting and revision have been completed to my personal satisfaction.
| Please don't let me put you off; writing IF is a lot of fun (even if,
like
| me, you never actually manage to release anything). It's just not easy.
Heh. You couldn't possibly put me off (and to even start, you'd have to
tell me something I DON'T already know). And if I enjoyed easy things, I
would be in a different line of work.
| Big games can take, literally, years to write (_Once and Future_...);
Barring sudden accident, years I've got. This is not an issue, much less a
problem.
| the
| programming part of it is the simplest bit.
And it's the only bit left for me to learn. Now if only I can learn Tech
Gibberish in the next few years, I'll be rolling ;) Fortunately, the
Inform-for-Morons thingy is reading a HELL of a lot more like English than
the so-called documentation on the Inform page itself :)
Thanks for your comments. Best -
S. John Ross
| As you'll eventually come to see, Z-machine is simply the VM which is
used
| by both Infocom and Inform games.
Um, I kind of knew that already ;) To recap:
I just don't know how to do the programming. The rest, I know. Honest.
| But the complex set of object behaviours that are exhibited in Inform
games
| are also available to TADS authors, apart from a very few instances
(actor
| grammar comes to mind). Most of us cut our teeth on Infocom games, and
it's
| a sort of nostalgia thing. But the history of TADS / Inform development
has
| been one of continuing advance. The world model involved in modern day
| systems is beyond that of the classic Infocom stuff.
Which is of no interest to me. Nostalgia is my entire reason for pursuing
IF as a hobby. Worrying about the cutting-edge is something I do in my work
for LUG and Microsoft and others - not something I do for fun. My games
will be very, very, unapologetically nostalgic in nature :)
| Inform has already begun to move beyond the Z-machine. As you examine the
| various systems available to you, keep in mind that the VM is only a
small
| (albeit important) part of the package.
And for me, Nostalgia is the rest ;) Viva Z-M ;) Plus, that TADS tutorial
made my eyes glaze right over, while the Inform one is in (gasp) English ;)
Peter Seebach
S. John Ross <sj...@io.com> wrote:
>doing signings at a convention sometime, and I'll buy you a drink and fill
>your ear for ten hours straight telling you in detail all the dangerous
>exceptions to your presumption ;) This is why paper-games (when done well)
>need several re-drafts and several rounds of playtesting: People doing
>unexpected things with what you introduce to the game is a universal
>game-design issue in fiction-format games.
The problem is, IF players (especially ones who beat Meretzky games without
hints) are *conditioned* to be munchkins. Nay, Munchkins - capital 'M'.
'io.com' implies you're familiar with Gurps, so you've probably met players
who gleefully describe superpowered characters with 3 helpless maiden aunts.
I was once, using the Gurps rules, able to develop an awesomely tough 'droid -
by soaking points left and right on "cannot be mistaken for human", social
disadvantages, and everything - my droid looked like a giant animatronic "puss
in boots". (Y'know, the Grimm fairy tale?)
People who think like that are naturals for interactive fiction. The genre
encourages you to understand a set of rules and abuse them.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
okbl...@my-deja.com
se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:
> my droid looked like a giant animatronic "puss
> in boots". (Y'know, the Grimm fairy tale?)
[set pedantry on]
It's not in Grimm. I think it's in Mother Goose.
--
[ok]
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Given
"S. John Ross" <sj...@io.com> writes:
[...]
>| Whenever you add a new object, you need
>| to think of the consequences of that object. Players are renowned for not
>| doing things the way the programmer intended. You don't have to worry
>| about such things in paper games.
>
> If only that were so, my job would be so much easier. Catch me when I'm
> your ear for ten hours straight telling you in detail all the dangerous
> exceptions to your presumption ;)
Just as a matter of interest, what games *have* you designed? It's quite
likely some people here will have heard of them...
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | "Evil will triumph because good is DUMB!"
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | --- Dark Helmet
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
JamesG
>
> In article <01bf0f2b$fda4a760$476a02d0@john---sandra>,
> "S. John Ross" <sj...@io.com> writes:
> > If only that were so, my job would be so much easier. Catch me when I'm
> > doing signings at a convention sometime, and I'll buy you a drink and fill
> > your ear for ten hours straight telling you in detail all the dangerous
> > exceptions to your presumption ;)
> [...]
>
> Just as a matter of interest, what games *have* you designed? It's quite
> likely some people here will have heard of them...
S. John is author of GURPS Black Ops and GURPS Russia, and currently
working on the Star Trek: The Original Series roleplaying game for Last
Unicorn Games.
JamesG,
font of useful information