Boredom In Development
Doeadeer3
In article <6vtuve$b...@news3.force9.net>, "Richard Gall"
<M...@NOSPAMcyborg.force9.co.uk> writes:
>I'm sure I'm not the only one who often gets bored while developing an IF
>game/story line? Many a time I have found myself working on an exciting
>storyline but got bored with looking at the source all day. When I get like
>this I usually leave the game for a few days (sometimes even weeks) and then
>go back to it. But this drastically slows down development. I was wondering
>how many of you experienced this also, and what solutions you have to
>re-igniting the spark to an adventure under development when boredom sets
>in?
Very good q, if you come up with an answer, please share it.
I get very excited at the beginning of developing a game -- filling in the
plot, the rooms, the characters, all the items that build the overall concept.
Then when it gets down to the nitty gritty -- plugging plot holes, fixing
inadequate routines and puzzles, polishing the prose, debugging -- I start to
get very bored (at that point it becomes WORK).
Which is why I have several "games in progress" but none finished (officially)
as of yet. Just when I start to get bored with polishing up one, I tend to
start another.
For instance, I am real tempted to postpone the polishing on "Stuck" (which
could take six months) and the rewrite of "Legacy" (after I tediously recover
all the crashed files -- which could also take six months) to start new mystery
instead.
Doe <Sigh> Resisting the temptation for now. But just for now.
Doe doea...@aol.com (formerly known as FemaleDeer)
****************************************************************************
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain
Mary K. Kuhner
>I get very excited at the beginning of developing a game -- filling in the
>plot, the rooms, the characters, all the items that build the overall concept.
>Then when it gets down to the nitty gritty -- plugging plot holes, fixing
>inadequate routines and puzzles, polishing the prose, debugging -- I start to
>get very bored (at that point it becomes WORK).
Maybe it would work better for you if you wrote one or two rooms,
then polished them, then wrote a few more? It's a weird design
strategy but it might keep your interest alive longer--every time
you got tired of the minutae, you'd have some new stuff to look
forward to. Also, if sometimes you're in a creating mood and
sometimes you're in a debugging mood, this would allow you to
scratch whichever one was itching on any given day.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Joe Mason
>
>Maybe it would work better for you if you wrote one or two rooms,
>then polished them, then wrote a few more? It's a weird design
>strategy but it might keep your interest alive longer--every time
>you got tired of the minutae, you'd have some new stuff to look
>forward to. Also, if sometimes you're in a creating mood and
>sometimes you're in a debugging mood, this would allow you to
>scratch whichever one was itching on any given day.
Bad idea. That's how I do it, and I never get anything done.
Joe
--
I think OO is great... It's no coincidence that "woohoo" contains "oo" twice.
-- GLYPH
Doeadeer3
In article <6vuh38$14dq$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>,
mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
> Also, if sometimes you're in a creating mood and
>sometimes you're in a debugging mood, this would allow you to
>scratch whichever one was itching on any given day.
I tend to do that anyway.
Actually Stuck is 80-90% done and so was Legacy (before it crashed and the
first version was 100% done -- with a major bug). I don't mind coding (if there
isn't too much to redo), I basically enjoy it because I bascially like
programming.
What I get hung up on are the puzzles. And I have heard no really good
suggestions about that yet in raif. So I usually end up with a story (almost
done) with major puzzle "holes" in it.
Holes: too few items to take (for puzzles) which can make the game boring,
too many items to take (more than the puzzles require), an item I was going to
use in one puzzle I have now decided to use in another so now I need another
item for the first puzzle (or there will be too few takeable items -- i.e. not
enough interactivity), a plot hole that needs to be resolved better by a
puzzle, a puzzle I think stinks, a puzzle I think is too easy, a puzzle I think
is too hard. I have a hard time making it "all come together" as regards the
interweaving of plot and puzzles. One puzzle and solution can affect another
puzzle and solution somewhere else, it becomes very complicated and one can't
always "fix" puzzles individually.
Maybe someday I will lower my "perfectionistic" standards and release a game
with what I consider lame puzzles. Or maybe not, because I would HATE to do
that.
I have resolved my current dilemna (crashed Legacy, three garbled files of
Stuck, recovering all, rewriting the rest -- the delay involved) by starting a
new game (to keep my interest up while I do the rest).
I have also tried collaborators (about 6 to date), none has "stayed the course"
and/or been that helpful (most people don't feel they are "good" at puzzles and
that is the help I would want). I can dream up a good plot, I can write, I can
code, but writing puzzles tends to stump me and most people don't want to limit
their help to puzzles.
Doe :-)
Roger Carbol
> What I get hung up on are the puzzles. And I have heard no really good
> suggestions about that yet in raif. So I usually end up with a story (almost
> done) with major puzzle "holes" in it.
Hmmm. It's hard to explain, the process of creating puzzles.
Generally I start with either the problem or the solution, and try
to figure out the other. Two recent examples from the everpresent
game-in-progress:
1) The player has a turkey. I'm not exactly sure why he has a
turkey, but he does. So I need to find a problem which is
solved with a turkey.
2) The player has to get past some tigers. So he needs some
sort of solution. Feeding the turkey to the tigers might work
but I'll probably try something else.
The other method is even harder to describe. It requires a good
knowledge of the "standard" IF puzzles (e.g. movement blocked
by darkness.) In the process of fleshing out the game, I try to
keep my eyes open for new permutations of these old puzzles
that arise naturally out of the nature of this particular game.
One could also try reading some of those "Puzzle" type
magazines. Every once in a while there's a concept which can
be used in IF.
And, of course, read everything Smullyan has ever written.
.. Roger Carbol .. r...@shaw.wave.ca .. riddle me this
Doeadeer3
>Hmmm. It's hard to explain, the process of creating puzzles.
>Generally I start with either the problem or the solution, and try
>to figure out the other. Two recent examples from the everpresent
>game-in-progress:
>
>1) The player has a turkey. I'm not exactly sure why he has a
>turkey, but he does. So I need to find a problem which is
>solved with a turkey.
>
>2) The player has to get past some tigers. So he needs some
>sort of solution. Feeding the turkey to the tigers might work
>but I'll probably try something else.
Except I usually end up with a turkey and no puzzle.
>The other method is even harder to describe. It requires a good
>knowledge of the "standard" IF puzzles (e.g. movement blocked
>by darkness.) In the process of fleshing out the game, I try to
>keep my eyes open for new permutations of these old puzzles
>that arise naturally out of the nature of this particular game.
This is easier and I have anaylized and/or made lists of the types of puzzles
already existant. It does give me some ideas.
Actually, I have created several puzzles I like. But I still end up with puzzle
holes.
People say, "let the puzzles flow from the story". Okay, in general principle
that sort of works, except if I wrote a normal story it would have NO puzzles
at all.
Puzzles are a DELIBERATE construct, they do not happen naturally. I also
consider puzzles one of the primary ingredients of IF. They are almost as much
a factor in making good IF as the writing and programming. (I am not prejudiced
in favor of puzzle-less IF, unless the author can offer a really satisfactory
alternative that makes the game interactive. I, myself, cannot.)
I am just b*tching, but I find constructing puzzles HARD, the hardest part of
writing IF. And, personally, when I play a game with bad puzzles I get annoyed.
Roger Carbol
>>1) The player has a turkey. I'm not exactly sure why he has a
>>turkey, but he does. So I need to find a problem which is
>>solved with a turkey.
> Except I usually end up with a turkey and no puzzle.
Try "characteristic analysis" (there's probably an 'official'
name for it) which consists of listing the characteristics of
the item in question. Then think of problems in which one or
more of those characteristics would be useful.
Example: The turkey:
1) quasi-autonomous
a) Tie a bomb to it and let it walk away?
b) Watch it carefully to predict the weather?
2) is a container
a) Cut it open and use the entrails for divination?
b) Put in on your head?
3) covered in feathers
a) Useful to the pillow-maker NPC?
b) Might trigger someone's allergies?
Etc etc etc. Be careful to avoid very obscure or non-obvious
characteristics ("The turkey uses it's innate homing instincts
to lead you through the maze!")
.. Roger Carbol .. r...@shaw.wave.ca .. the turkey knows all
Daryl McCullough
>People say, "let the puzzles flow from the story". Okay, in general
>principle that sort of works, except if I wrote a normal story it
>would have NO puzzles at all.
>
>Puzzles are a DELIBERATE construct, they do not happen naturally.
That's not always true. In "Edifice", for example,
the puzzles really consisted of forcing the player to think through
how something difficult would be accomplished in the real world
(starting a fire without matches, hunting for food, communicating
with a stranger who speaks a different language). That's also true
about some of the puzzles in Zarf's "So Far" (opening the gate,
for example).
So another approach to creating puzzles is simply to take some
task that the player needs to perform and do a thorough job of
working out what obstacles might actually come up.
Daryl McCullough
CoGenTex, Inc.
Ithaca, NY
Doeadeer3
In article <362494...@shaw.wave.ca>, Roger Carbol <r...@shaw.wave.ca>
writes:
>Try "characteristic analysis" (there's probably an 'official'
>name for it) which consists of listing the characteristics of
>the item in question. Then think of problems in which one or
>more of those characteristics would be useful.
>
>Example: The turkey:
>
>1) quasi-autonomous
> a) Tie a bomb to it and let it walk away?
> b) Watch it carefully to predict the weather?
>
>2) is a container
> a) Cut it open and use the entrails for divination?
> b) Put in on your head?
>
>3) covered in feathers
> a) Useful to the pillow-maker NPC?
> b) Might trigger someone's allergies?
Good idea.
Doe :-) Who tends to think of weird objects anyway.
Doeadeer3
In article <702sfa$9...@edrn.newsguy.com>, da...@cogentex.com (Daryl McCullough)
writes:
>>Puzzles are a DELIBERATE construct, they do not happen naturally.
>
>That's not always true. In "Edifice", for example,
>the puzzles really consisted of forcing the player to think through
>how something difficult would be accomplished in the real world
>(starting a fire without matches, hunting for food, communicating
>with a stranger who speaks a different language). That's also true
>about some of the puzzles in Zarf's "So Far" (opening the gate,
>for example).
Edifice does the best so far (among the games I have played) in having the
puzzles flow naturally from the story, basic survival and learn a new language
stuff.
>So another approach to creating puzzles is simply to take some
>task that the player needs to perform and do a thorough job of
>working out what obstacles might actually come up.
Well, if you want what will probably be a boring puzzle. Most good or "better"
puzzles also usually require some kind of "intuitive leap", a step that is not
always obviously part of a 1-2-3 deductive progression. (Although those can
make puzzles too, just very logical puzzles, i.e., not very interesting. Locked
door, find key, etc.)
Doe IMHO
Daryl McCullough
>da...@cogentex.com (Daryl McCullough) writes:
>
>>So another approach to creating puzzles is simply to take some
>>task that the player needs to perform and do a thorough job of
>>working out what obstacles might actually come up.
>
>Well, if you want what will probably be a boring puzzle. Most
>good or "better" puzzles also usually require some kind of
>"intuitive leap", a step that is not always obviously part
>of a 1-2-3 deductive progression. (Although those can
>make puzzles too, just very logical puzzles, i.e., not
>very interesting. Locked door, find key, etc.)
I think that boring puzzles arise when the game author
*fails* to think through the real complexities of a task,
and instead uses a cliche as a short-cut. Never in my
life have I ever gotten into a building by searching
for a key. (Umm, with the embarrassing exception of
getting into my own house, at times.)
I think that the "intuitive leap" that makes
interesting puzzles comes from the author thinking
as hard about the problem as he expects the player to.
With short-cuts such as "find the key", the player
has to work a lot *harder* than the author ever
did. (Because for the author, the key can be in
the first place he thinks of.)
jgoe...@my-dejanews.com
mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> Doeadeer3 <doea...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >I get very excited at the beginning of developing a game -- filling in the
> >plot, the rooms, the characters, all the items that build the overall
concept.
> >Then when it gets down to the nitty gritty -- plugging plot holes, fixing
> >inadequate routines and puzzles, polishing the prose, debugging -- I start to
> >get very bored (at that point it becomes WORK).
>
> then polished them, then wrote a few more? It's a weird design
> strategy but it might keep your interest alive longer--every time
> you got tired of the minutae, you'd have some new stuff to look
> sometimes you're in a debugging mood, this would allow you to
> scratch whichever one was itching on any given day.
Actually, this is a pretty sound approach. Otherwise, you can end
up with bits and pieces of a dozen-odd projects that never get done.
Just make a list of specific bits that need tweaking in your games (Do
I hear groans from the Ranks of the Hopelessly Disorganized? --*I'm a
charter member . . . ;-D ) and start bashing away.
Otherwise, I *never* would've made progress on my "Millennia"
submissions.
Gome
--
The Gome Page: Downbelow Station
http://netnow.micron.net/~jgoemmer/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Schep
> Hmmm. It's hard to explain, the process of creating puzzles.
> Generally I start with either the problem or the solution, and try
> to figure out the other.
Just a thought for another way to get puzzles, has anyone tried
something like this? Get some alpha testers for your half finished
game, including unused items and problems without a solution yet (tell
them some are in there, but not what, so they don't hate you for it) and
watch their transcripts for really good ideas / things to try. Then if
it's sort of simple you can add a twist, put in a hint when the first
action is tried.
Again, the idea that an author makes puzzles the way a player solves
them, sort of.
--
Schep -----------------------------------------------------
Reply by email should be schepler at pilot dot msu dot edu.
The other automatic one is an anti-spam device.
Nothing against the meat. (yes, spam contains meat)
Roger Carbol
> Just a thought for another way to get puzzles, has anyone tried
> something like this? Get some alpha testers for your half finished
> game, including unused items and problems without a solution yet (tell
> them some are in there, but not what, so they don't hate you for it) and
> watch their transcripts for really good ideas / things to try. Then if
> it's sort of simple you can add a twist, put in a hint when the first
> action is tried.
I'd definitely want to warn my alpha testers if I ever tried
something like this. I think it's fair to add solutions that
your testers discover, but I'd still want to have "my" solution
in there as well.
.. Roger Carbol .. r...@shaw.wave.ca .. puce herring
Branko Collin
wrote:
[how to come up with puzzles]
>Just a thought for another way to get puzzles, has anyone tried
>something like this? Get some alpha testers for your half finished
>game, including unused items and problems without a solution yet (tell
>them some are in there, but not what, so they don't hate you for it) and
>watch their transcripts for really good ideas / things to try. Then if
>it's sort of simple you can add a twist, put in a hint when the first
>action is tried.
>
>Again, the idea that an author makes puzzles the way a player solves
>them, sort of.
A similar idea is already being brought in practice on a web site
somewhere: collaborative adventures, in the fashion of the way some
open software is being made. You 'lock' a project, make your changes
and by submitting the changed code back to the web site you unlock it
for others to dl and change.
--
branko collin, bco...@xs4all.nl
a a de de de de een het the the the
(various artists, gesorteerd op alfabetische
volgorde)
Doeadeer3
In article <7050t2$j...@edrn.newsguy.com>, da...@cogentex.com (Daryl McCullough)
writes:
>I think that the "intuitive leap" that makes
>interesting puzzles comes from the author thinking
>as hard about the problem as he expects the player to.
>With short-cuts such as "find the key", the player
>has to work a lot *harder* than the author ever
>did. (Because for the author, the key can be in
>the first place he thinks of.)
Interesting point, not sure I agree, I will have to think about it further.
Doe :-)
Doeadeer3
In article <3627658D...@mail.server.net>, Schep <Sc...@mail.server.net>
writes:
>Just a thought for another way to get puzzles, has anyone tried
>something like this? Get some alpha testers for your half finished
>game, including unused items and problems without a solution yet (tell
>them some are in there, but not what, so they don't hate you for it) and
>watch their transcripts for really good ideas / things to try. Then if
>it's sort of simple you can add a twist, put in a hint when the first
>action is tried.
I've thought about it, but to betatest a game it must be playable from
beginning to end, which means it can't have holes -- as how would the
betatesters get around a hole? So basically, it would be unfair.
However, one could leave one's *lame* solutions in and see how the betatesters
react and listen to what they tried to do instead.
LucFrench
>I've thought about it, but to betatest a game it must be playable from
>beginning to end, which means it can't have holes -- as how would the
>betatesters get around a hole? So basically, it would be unfair.
>
>However, one could leave one's *lame* solutions in and see how the
>betatesters
>react and listen to what they tried to do instead.
My suggestion on the matter:
If the puzzle is unsolveable, put in a workaround, like a sign saying "Note to
Alpha Testers: This puzzle is unsolvable right now. If you press the button on
this sign, you will be transported to just past the puzzle." (Happens in
puzzles where the solution requires something that can't be done just yet;
think the dream sequence in Curses.)
Thanks
Luc "Suggestions" French
Doeadeer3
In article <19981017030850...@ng128.aol.com>, lucf...@aol.com
(LucFrench) writes:
>If the puzzle is unsolveable, put in a workaround, like a sign saying "Note
>to
>Alpha Testers: This puzzle is unsolvable right now. If you press the button
>on
>this sign, you will be transported to just past the puzzle." (Happens in
>puzzles where the solution requires something that can't be done just yet;
>think the dream sequence in Curses.)
Not a bad idea at all, I have contemplated something similar in the past. I
have wondered if betatesters would "put up" with something like that?
TenthStone
minds on Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:36:24 +0100:
>1) The player has a turkey. I'm not exactly sure why he has a
>turkey, but he does. So I need to find a problem which is
>solved with a turkey.
The "n"-adding machine, or something of the sort. You need a key to
a cell. You have a turkey. You put the turkey in the machine, pull
the lever, and out comes a turkey-feather doll of a turnkey. Stick the
turnkey with a pin, the real-life jailer drops the keys, and you run in
and grab the one you want.
The capitalizing machine. Point it at the turkey, suddenly there's a
turkey-feather map of Turkey (if you've never seen a turkey-feather
map, you really need to). I have no idea what good this would do you.
The unarchaic machine. Put the turkey in backwards ("yekrut"),
the machine removes the "ye" and you get a Turk (perhaps it needs a run
through the capitalizer first). Immediately kills any Crusaders in the
vicinity.
>2) The player has to get past some tigers. So he needs some
>sort of solution. Feeding the turkey to the tigers might work
>but I'll probably try something else.
Kill the turkey, drink the blood, sign a pact with Satan, and fly across.
Point the capitalizer at a tiger. Immediately, the tiger turns into a
giant mud flat and oozes somewhat. Kill the turkey, drink the blood,
make a pact with Satan, and cause it to rain. The mud flat immediately
becomes a roaring river which floods the area and washes the other tigers
away.
The synonym machine. Point it at the ground, suddenly it becomes a
massive amount of used coffee beans. The tigers are trapped, but so are
you if you try to get acorss. Kill the turkey, drink the blood, make a
pact with Satan, and cause it to rain boiling water. The ground is
suddenly covered with weak coffee; the tigers and various corporate
secretaries are burnt alive.
-----------
The imperturbable TenthStone
tenth...@hotmail.com mcc...@erols.com mcc...@gsgis.k12.va.us
Doeadeer3
In article <3628d152...@news.erols.com>, mcc...@erols.com (TenthStone)
writes:
>The synonym machine. Point it at the ground, suddenly it becomes a
>massive amount of used coffee beans. The tigers are trapped, but so are
>you if you try to get acorss. Kill the turkey, drink the blood, make a
>pact with Satan, and cause it to rain boiling water. The ground is
>suddenly covered with weak coffee; the tigers and various corporate
>secretaries are burnt alive.
BTW - Have you ever finished a game? I might want to check it out, considering
your thought processes it might be fun (or way too frustrating) to play.
Wildman, the Cuberstalker
>Point the capitalizer at a tiger. Immediately, the tiger turns into a
>giant mud flat and oozes somewhat.
Huh?
--
Wildman, the Cuberstalker
"Frank Virga is a spammer, a con man, a liar, an idiot, and a thief." --
The Cuberstalkers
Fight spam - http://www.cauce.org/
DO NOT SPAM THIS ADDRESS
Adam J. Thornton
Doeadeer3 <doea...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <19981017030850...@ng128.aol.com>, lucf...@aol.com
>(LucFrench) writes:
>>If the puzzle is unsolveable, put in a workaround, like a sign saying "Note
>>to
>>Alpha Testers: This puzzle is unsolvable right now. If you press the button
>>on
>>this sign, you will be transported to just past the puzzle." (Happens in
>>puzzles where the solution requires something that can't be done just yet;
>>think the dream sequence in Curses.)
>Not a bad idea at all, I have contemplated something similar in the past. I
>have wondered if betatesters would "put up" with something like that?
Assuming the game is of sufficient scope,
yes.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman
p a t c h.net
Cuberstalker) wrote:
>On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:34:42 GMT, TenthStone <mcc...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Point the capitalizer at a tiger. Immediately, the tiger turns into a
>>giant mud flat and oozes somewhat.
>
>Huh?
Tiga, if I recall my strange geography terms correctly. Now I want to
see what it does when you reach a flight of steps...
--
der spatchel reading, mass 01867
resident cranky fovea.retina.net 4000
"What mother means is they're still shooting it out, but now it's in color!"
David Given
tv's Spatch <spatula@s p a t c h.net> wrote:
[...]
>Tiga, if I recall my strange geography terms correctly. Now I want to
>see what it does when you reach a flight of steps...
They expand to be several hundred miles across, grow grass, and rise into
the air, disappearing out a nearby window. You can now get into the
under-stair cupboard!
--
+- David Given ----------------+
| Work: d...@tao.co.uk | "Evil will triumph because good is
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | DUMB!" --- Dark Helmet
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+
TenthStone
in our collective minds on 17 Oct 1998 22:45:48 GMT:
>On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:34:42 GMT, TenthStone <mcc...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Point the capitalizer at a tiger. Immediately, the tiger turns into a
>>giant mud flat and oozes somewhat.
>
>Huh?
I think I need a Bee Gee machine in there. For turning b's to g's and
vice-versa. Or a Resir machine (there's a riddle for you) (I've been
making this same mistake for years now).
Spatch's idea is cute, though. It's spelled "taiga," and it means the
coniferous forests of the northern tundra, but it's cute.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >If the puzzle is unsolveable, put in a workaround, like a sign
saying "Note
> >to Alpha Testers: This puzzle is unsolvable right now...
> Not a bad idea at all, I have contemplated something similar in
the past. I
> have wondered if betatesters would "put up" with something like
that?
If they know in advance that they're alpha testing they will.
If you trick them into thinking they're beta testing a basically
complete game they might or might not, depending on
personality issues.
--
"The main drawback of Inform is that it lacks
the facility for computed COME FROM statements."
-- jonadab
Phil Goetz
Doeadeer3 <doea...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I get very excited at the beginning of developing a game -- filling in the
>plot, the rooms, the characters, all the items that build the overall concept.
>Then when it gets down to the nitty gritty -- plugging plot holes, fixing
>inadequate routines and puzzles, polishing the prose, debugging -- I start to
>get very bored (at that point it becomes WORK).
This is the problem with working for a game company -- the higher-ups
do all the fun stuff. I come in at the point where it becomes work.
Phil