The Adventure Game: Dead Again
okbl...@usa.net
If you caught Mr. Granade's recent article at the Mining Company on success
and the adventure game, you might have come away with the impression that the
adventure game--even the commercial, graphical adventure game--is in trouble
again.
I sort of got that impression, but didn't really consider it since it's been
ages since I played a graphical adventure game, much less bought one.
But I happened to be out shopping for a birthday gift for a child that I
thought might enjoy the collection of games I saw packaged as LucasArts Vol.
I.
The problem wasn't that I couldn't find it--I knew it was old enough to be a
potentially difficult find. The problem was that I couldn't find =where= it
would be. In other words, finding the "adventure game" section was difficult
or impossible. One store didn't have a section. One store had a section with
primarily children's games. One store had a section but didn't have anything
filed under it. (Tex Murphy and Starship Titanic were scattered around.)
The telling store had a section for it, but mostly empty. There was a copy of
Black Dahlia, a couple of copies Starship Titatnic and Temujin, and a few
others I hadn't heard of. Starship Titanic is a new release, I might add, but
it looked like it (and all the others on the shelf) were headed for the $10
bin.
The successful games are treated more as flukes: Myst and Riven are sold, but
in their own niche. There is a Star Wars collection, but that gets its own
area, too, with all the other Star Wars stuff.
Dead again?
[ok]
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michael...@ey.com
In article <6l4b3n$9vh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
okbl...@usa.net wrote:
>
> If you caught Mr. Granade's recent article at the Mining Company on success
> and the adventure game, you might have come away with the impression that
the
> adventure game--even the commercial, graphical adventure game--is in trouble
> again.
>
Ugh. Obsolescence is never fun.
On the other hand, with adventure games dead, I won't feel quite so silly
spending hundreds of hours creating games that I won't ever get paid for.
--M.
Bill
Andreas Podgurski wrote in message
<3575fbce...@news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>...
>
>>Dead again?
>The problem is, that there were too many bad games in the last years,
>which crippled the adventure principe down to its lowest basics.
>Everything went automaticly (the so called intellegent cursor), you
>couldn't make anything wrong but a lot of times nearly nothing and so
>on. The reason for that is, because 2D graphic adventures are hardly
>to develope in the way than e.g. an inform title.
One solution. Write an Inform Game as a design exercise for the graphical
game. Get the story and puzzles figured out first.
>Writing a graphic
>adventure, you need to know nearly everything from the beginning,
>because any change affects the work of a lot of other people. By that,
>mistakes are transported through the developement process, because
>they are to hard to change. Hope this will change, when the adventures
>are of real 3d...
I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense. You get a freedom of movement
and puzzles of a physical nature can actually use ... Physics. BUt most of
the titles that say they are 3D advenures are really 3D
shooters/jumpers/whatever's.
I just wish someone would take off where I and Eddie left off with RTZ....
Bill
Brian 'Beej' Hall
In article <lPAd1.11044$Kx3.9...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
There was a 3D game called...urg. I can't remember--it's been too long.
It was an old IBM EGA game called... It took place inside a pyramid in
Egypt, where you were an archeologist/tomb raider. There were catwalks
that would appear when you shot certian switches, and pressed panels,
etc. There were very few things that could kill you--it was just an
exploration and discovery thing. You had to collect Ankhs before an
hour had elapsed to prevent the moon from exploding, or some unlikely
plot like that.
>and puzzles of a physical nature can actually use ... Physics.
I don't think the Egypt game went this far. In normal IF, we try to
figure out how to operate things we find, and use them to solve puzzles.
Since it's text, this can be very easy, since you don't have to model a
soda machine image with slots, soda selectors, and cans which obey
Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation. You just say, "You put the coin
in the soda machine, and a can of Grog crashes out of the chute."
I guess my point is that you probably can't expect to get the rich
flavor of text IF out of a 3D adventure game, just because modelling all
the complex items we love to have in these games is difficult.
However, I would definitely play a 3D adventure game--it would still be
very fun, just in a different way.
-Beej
okbl...@usa.net
In article <6l4h1u$jd1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
michael...@ey.com wrote:
>
> Ugh. Obsolescence is never fun.
>
> On the other hand, with adventure games dead, I won't feel quite so silly
> spending hundreds of hours creating games that I won't ever get paid for.
>
I think it's partially cyclical, but =mainly= due to the fact that the
problems posed by Adventure Games are much more difficult to solve than simple
3D number crunching polygon tracing blah-de-blah.
That stuff ain't easy, but it's several orders of magnitude easier than
simulating a human being.
[ok]
Bill
Brian 'Beej' Hall wrote in message <6l6mj1$srk$1...@hubble.csuchico.edu>...
>In article <lPAd1.11044$Kx3.9...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
>Bill <bv...@inetworld.net> wrote:
>>I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense.
>
>There was a 3D game called...urg. I can't remember--it's been too long.
>It was an old IBM EGA game called... It took place inside a pyramid in
>Egypt, where you were an archeologist/tomb raider. There were catwalks
>that would appear when you shot certian switches, and pressed panels,
>etc. There were very few things that could kill you--it was just an
>exploration and discovery thing. You had to collect Ankhs before an
>hour had elapsed to prevent the moon from exploding, or some unlikely
>plot like that.
Ever hear of a Mac 3D "adventure" (kinda) called "The Pyramid of Peril?"
Circa 1985.
>>and puzzles of a physical nature can actually use ... Physics.
>
>I don't think the Egypt game went this far. In normal IF, we try to
>figure out how to operate things we find, and use them to solve puzzles.
>Since it's text, this can be very easy, since you don't have to model a
>soda machine image with slots, soda selectors, and cans which obey
>Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation. You just say, "You put the coin
>in the soda machine, and a can of Grog crashes out of the chute."
That's not the example I was thinking of. More of a cross between "The
Incredable Machine" and ZORK.
>I guess my point is that you probably can't expect to get the rich
>flavor of text IF out of a 3D adventure game, just because modelling all
>the complex items we love to have in these games is difficult.
It would be different. In a way 3D advenures could be MORE like text
adventures than the pre-rendered 2D/3D/Video stuff. Why? Because you COULD
build scenes out of description. I.E. the authoring system could actually
use some sort of descriptive language to actually generate the 3D stuff out
of libraries (a medium sized tavern constructed of stone) or at least give
you a start.
A RT3D game could also be LARGER and CHEAPER to build. It also could work
via. the Internet.
Bill
cody sandifer
In article <199806050...@zetnet.co.uk>, Barry Smith
<resi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Brian 'Beej' Hall wrote in message <6l6mj1$srk$1...@hubble.csuchico.edu>...
> > >In article <lPAd1.11044$Kx3.9...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > >Bill <bv...@inetworld.net> wrote:
> > >>I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense.
> > >
> > >There was a 3D game called...urg. I can't remember--it's been too long.
> > >It was an old IBM EGA game called... It took place inside a pyramid in
> > >Egypt, where you were an archeologist/tomb raider. There were catwalks
> > >that would appear when you shot certian switches, and pressed panels,
> > >etc. There were very few things that could kill you--it was just an
> > >exploration and discovery thing. You had to collect Ankhs before an
> > >hour had elapsed to prevent the moon from exploding, or some unlikely
> > >plot like that.
>
> Um, I think the game you're referring to is "Total Eclipse". It was
> the sequel to a game called "Driller". I can't remember the
> company's name (s'cuse me, but it's far too early). It was like
> Imagine or something though.
Riiiight. These were also released for the Amiga. Another game by the
same company (in the same vein) was Dark-somethingorother.
Always helpful,
cody
Barry Smith
> Brian 'Beej' Hall wrote in message <6l6mj1$srk$1...@hubble.csuchico.edu>...
> >In article <lPAd1.11044$Kx3.9...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> >Bill <bv...@inetworld.net> wrote:
> >>I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense.
> >
> >There was a 3D game called...urg. I can't remember--it's been too long.
> >It was an old IBM EGA game called... It took place inside a pyramid in
> >Egypt, where you were an archeologist/tomb raider. There were catwalks
> >that would appear when you shot certian switches, and pressed panels,
> >etc. There were very few things that could kill you--it was just an
> >exploration and discovery thing. You had to collect Ankhs before an
> >hour had elapsed to prevent the moon from exploding, or some unlikely
> >plot like that.
Um, I think the game you're referring to is "Total Eclipse". It was
the sequel to a game called "Driller". I can't remember the
company's name (s'cuse me, but it's far too early). It was like
Imagine or something though.
-----
Spud
Den of Iniquity
On 4 Jun 1998, Brian 'Beej' Hall wrote:
>There was a 3D game called...urg. I can't remember--it's been too long.
>It was an old IBM EGA game called... It took place inside a pyramid in
>Egypt, where you were an archeologist/tomb raider. There were catwalks
>that would appear when you shot certian switches, and pressed panels,
>etc. There were very few things that could kill you--it was just an
>exploration and discovery thing. You had to collect Ankhs before an
>hour had elapsed to prevent the moon from exploding, or some unlikely
>plot like that.
'Total Eclipse' by Incentive - available on C64, Spectrum, Amstrad, ST, PC
and Amiga AFAIK. There was this mechanism in the tip of this pyramid, you
see, that would use mysterious ancient powers to destroy any object that
blocked out the sun completely. Not a major problem, probably blasting the
odd avian would-be pyramid nester, until one day there's going to be this
total solar eclipse that is visible from Egypt...
Incentive used the same 3D engine for Dark Side, Driller, Total Eclipse
and Castle Master (the latter two (and possibly the others) had specially
commissioned sequels that were only available to 'Home Computer Club'
members) then released the engine as 'The 3D Construction Kit', the Amiga
version of which I have (if anyone's interested in it, I'd willingly flog
it off; I find it a pain to use and dreadfully slow, and not entirely
compatible with modern Amigas).
All of the action in these games involved moving around and either
shooting objects or 'manipulating' objects (left mouse button, right mouse
button...) so as you can see the puzzles weren't especially complex. Total
Eclipse was effectively a three-dee maze with plenty of evil deadly traps
- repeatedly playing it just to get that little bit further and learn the
position of the next trap never seemed like a lot of fun to me.
>However, I would definitely play a 3D adventure game--it would still be
>very fun, just in a different way.
The Mercenary trilogy were great in this respect, Damocles (Merc 2)
especially so. AFAIK Merc 2 and Merc 3 never made it to PC's though.
--
Den
Michael Straight
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bill wrote:
> A RT3D game could also be LARGER and CHEAPER to build. It also could work
> via. the Internet.
Woo Woo! Jigsaw Multiplayer! You be White and I'll be Black and you
won't stop me from takin' Hitler down this time!
SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
David Brain
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95L.98060...@ebor.york.ac.uk>,
dms...@york.ac.uk (Den of Iniquity) wrote:
> The Mercenary trilogy were great in this respect, Damocles (Merc 2)
> especially so. AFAIK Merc 2 and Merc 3 never made it to PC's though.
Although Damocles was almost finished when Psygnosis pulled the plug.
Paul Woakes is apparently at work on Merc 4 for the PC though.
But Damocles is a good pointer to variable solutions too, since there were
always half-a-dozen different ways to solve the game, several of which
used the same objects in different ways. It was also the only game I
played which had a bus timetable with the packaging...
Incidentally, the PC version of 3d Construction Kit is a hoot since it ran
fairly quickly on 386s. Imagine how completely unusable it is on even a
lowly P100... :-)
--
David Brain
London, UK
> Light creates shadow; light destroys shadow. <
> Such is the transience of darkness. <
theb...@my-dejanews.com
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95L.98060...@ebor.york.ac.uk>,
Den of Iniquity <dms...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> 'Total Eclipse' by Incentive - available on C64, Spectrum, Amstrad, ST, PC
> and Amiga AFAIK. There was this mechanism in the tip of this pyramid, you
> see, that would use mysterious ancient powers to destroy any object that
> blocked out the sun completely. Not a major problem, probably blasting the
> odd avian would-be pyramid nester, until one day there's going to be this
> total solar eclipse that is visible from Egypt...
>
> Incentive used the same 3D engine for Dark Side, Driller, Total Eclipse
> and Castle Master (the latter two (and possibly the others) had specially
> commissioned sequels that were only available to 'Home Computer Club'
> members) then released the engine as 'The 3D Construction Kit', the Amiga
> version of which I have (if anyone's interested in it, I'd willingly flog
> it off; I find it a pain to use and dreadfully slow, and not entirely
> compatible with modern Amigas).
Yeah, I remember having some kind of construction kit for the PC. Then I
played the Eclipse thing, and they both were remarkably similar (identical
was maybe the word). I think it was released by Domark, and was called
"Virtual Reality Studio" or something cheesy like that. It was very easy to
construct the 3d-world, because there was almost no difference between the
construction mode and the play mode, except that you could shape and position
the objects.
The objects were simple: cubes, lines, wedges, but you could never overlap
the bounding boxes of any of these (even the lines).
I don't remember what happened to it, tough. I would like to know if there
was some actual relationship between that game and the engine.
-TheBlues
Todd Baumann-Fern
Heh. I've got a copy of Virtual Reality Studio around here somewhere. I tossed
the box but kept the disks and manual. I never got into it too much.
Zaphod1342
>I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense. You get a freedom of movement
>and puzzles of a physical nature can actually use ... Physics. BUt most of
>the titles that say they are 3D advenures are really 3D
>shooters/jumpers/whatever's.
In case you don't already know, Sierra's coming out with one sometime in the
near future. Sure, it's a King's Quest game, but I still think it counts as a
legitimate adventure. And the new Journeyman Project game, Legacy of Time, is
a 3D adventure, if not a real-time 3D game. (BTW: I strongly recommend playing
Legacy of Time, it's proof that the adventure game is *not* dead.)
Nat Budin
---> Check out my page! - http://members.aol.com/Zaphod1342 - Sierra, game
programming, and more...
Jon Petersen
Zaphod1342 wrote:
>
> >I agree. A RT3D Adventure makes much sense. You get a freedom of movement
> >and puzzles of a physical nature can actually use ... Physics. BUt most of
> >the titles that say they are 3D advenures are really 3D
> >shooters/jumpers/whatever's.
>
> In case you don't already know, Sierra's coming out with one sometime in the
> near future. Sure, it's a King's Quest game, but I still think it counts as a
> legitimate adventure.
I believe the upcoming Gabriel Knight game is 3D, too. But the 3D
adventure that looks really, really cool is LucasArts' _Grim Fandango_,
which I think comes out in fall. (Could be a good quarter for games,
since Fallout 2 comes out then too.)
Speaking of 3D in adventures, does anyone know if the 3D glasses in
_Starship Titanic_ are ever used?
Jon
David A. Cornelson
Jon Petersen wrote in message <357A08...@ucla.edu>...
>Zaphod1342 wrote:
>>
>Speaking of 3D in adventures, does anyone know if the 3D glasses in
>_Starship Titanic_ are ever used?
>
Yes, they are, at the very end of the game.
Jarb
Zaphod1342
Just had a thought...
Since (from all I've heard), the Quake engine is extremely expandable, wouldn't
it be possible to create a full-fledged adventure in Quake? All you'd have to
do is create some levels (read: rooms), add support for an inventory, program
some robot characters for NPCs... ?
Or am I overestimating the flexibility of the Quake engine?
(heh heh.. just think, someday we'll be booting up Quake to play Colossal
Cave...)
Nat Budin - budinn...@ALLCAPSgeocities.com
--> Visit my page! - http://members.aol.com/Zaphod1342 - Sierra, game
programming, and more!
Den of Iniquity
On 5 Jun 1998, David Brain wrote:
>Den of Iniquity wrote:
>
>> The Mercenary trilogy were great in this respect, Damocles (Merc 2)
>> especially so. AFAIK Merc 2 and Merc 3 never made it to PC's though.
>
>Although Damocles was almost finished when Psygnosis pulled the plug.
That's what I've heard.
Mercenary web-page at: http://www.geocities.com/paris/7150/merce.htm
>Paul Woakes is apparently at work on Merc 4 for the PC though.
Darn. I'll probably not get to play it then. <stronger expletive>.
>But Damocles is a good pointer to variable solutions too, since there were
>always half-a-dozen different ways to solve the game, several of which
>used the same objects in different ways. It was also the only game I
>played which had a bus timetable with the packaging...
That was Merc 3 (the public transport system was intriguing, but as I
found my Eagle within about a minute of starting it didn't hold me back
much). Merc 3 had more varied multiple solutions but I thought the actual
puzzle of saving Eris and Damocles was far cleverer, despite not sticking
to normal astronomical behaviour (that comet going all the way round the
star and coming back out to the fourth planet in a matter of a couple of
hours? I think not).
>Incidentally, the PC version of 3d Construction Kit is a hoot since it ran
>fairly quickly on 386s. Imagine how completely unusable it is on even a
>lowly P100... :-)
It wouldn't be so bad on my 68030 but I have to disable large parts of my
computer to convince the software to work, slowing it down and generally
being a total nuisance.
--
Dem
Den of Iniquity
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 theb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[Incentive's 'FreeScape' engine]
>I don't remember what happened to it, tough. I would like to know if there
>was some actual relationship between that game and the engine.
The engine was the same as the one used in the games; I think extra bits
were tagged on to the games (there are one or two things done in the games
that I don't think you could do with the 3D construction Kit) but they
were eseentially identical.
--
Den
okbl...@usa.net
In article <199806072105...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
zapho...@aol.com (Zaphod1342) wrote:
>
> Just had a thought...
>
> Since (from all I've heard), the Quake engine is extremely expandable,
wouldn't
> it be possible to create a full-fledged adventure in Quake? All you'd have to
> do is create some levels (read: rooms), add support for an inventory, program
> some robot characters for NPCs... ?
>
> Or am I overestimating the flexibility of the Quake engine?
>
The only thing that Quake may be lacking is the ability to prompt for input.
I wouldn't be surprised if it had it, though.
[ok]
John Elliott
In particular, in Driller you could dynamically create and destroy one gas
rig per sector, which wasn't possible in the 3D Construction Kit. The
commercial games also had more advanced status displays, though that wasn't
part of the 3D engine; likewise, the code to play sounds was the same, but
the sounds were less sophisticated in the 3DCK.
As proof that the engine is the same: at one time, I cloned the first
sector of Driller using the 3DCK. Worked fine.
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
Ben
> The only thing that Quake may be lacking is the ability to prompt for input.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it had it, though.
>
Quake has a C-like scripting language called, interestingly enough, quake
C. It also has a live command-line.
So yes, it would be doable.
-Ben
David Brain
> That was Merc 3 (the public transport system was intriguing, but as I
> found my Eagle within about a minute of starting it didn't hold me back
> much).
I must admit to forgetting which game was which (although I was sure that
both games had the buses). However, you would *not* believe how long it
took me to find the Eagle (considering it was in such an obvious place...)
Bill
Ben wrote in message ...
>In article <6lhh5p$s5i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, okbl...@usa.net wrote:
>
>> The only thing that Quake may be lacking is the ability to prompt for
input.
>> I wouldn't be surprised if it had it, though.
>>
>
>Quake has a C-like scripting language called, interestingly enough, quake
>C. It also has a live command-line.
>
>So yes, it would be doable.
>
>-Ben
Can you point me to a good site to find some PD tools for building Quake
scenes? I know that people do that sort of thing with Doom....
Bill
Paul O'Brian
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bill wrote:
> One solution. Write an Inform Game as a design exercise for the graphical
> game. Get the story and puzzles figured out first.
You may already know this, but IIRC this method was used in development of
Zork: Grand Inquisitor.
Paul O'Brian
obr...@colorado.edu
http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
cen...@hotmail.com
Apropos of nothing:
Am I the only person who keeps seeing this thread's subject line and imagining
something like:
DIM, DUSTY BACK ROOM
The hypnotist's eyes gaze into yours as you strive to recall your hidden past.
You see here several newspaper clippings with pictures strangely resembling
yourself and your rescuer.
>LOOK AT ME
You look just like Emma Thompson.
;)
--Daphne "just a lurker, just passing through"
David Brain
In article <6lkt2o$p1m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cen...@hotmail.com ()
wrote:
> Apropos of nothing:
>
> Am I the only person who keeps seeing this thread's subject line and
> imagining
> something like:
>
>snip<
>
> >LOOK AT ME
> You look just like Emma Thompson.
I look at the subject line and recall a much-missed BBC television show
from the late 1970s.
okbl...@usa.net
In article <6lkt2o$p1m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
cen...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Am I the only person who keeps seeing this thread's subject line and imagining
> something like:
> You look just like Emma Thompson.
>
No, I do, too. And, in fact, when I made the subject header up, I envisioned
a box labelled "Starship Titanic" impaled on a pair of scissors. ;-)
[ok]
Jeff Hatch
Zaphod1342 wrote:
> Since (from all I've heard), the Quake engine is extremely expandable, wouldn't
> it be possible to create a full-fledged adventure in Quake? All you'd have to
> do is create some levels (read: rooms), add support for an inventory, program
> some robot characters for NPCs... ?
>
> Or am I overestimating the flexibility of the Quake engine?
My brother Peter found a version of chess that runs on the Quake engine, and he
enhanced it by writing Quake C code to correctly detect pins, check, and checkmate,
so I believe he knows a lot about this. He tells me that Quake C is extremely
annyoing to work with, and that the Quake command line probably wouldn't be
adequate for a text adventure game. Doom might be a better choice, since its
source code is now publicly available.
-Rúmil
David Given
In article <memo.199806...@atlan.cix.co.uk>,
David Brain <da...@atlan.cix.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>I look at the subject line and recall a much-missed BBC television show
>from the late 1970s.
You too?
--
+- David Given ----------------+
| Work: d...@tao.co.uk | Help! The paranoids are out to get
| Play: (broken, use above) | me!
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+
Den of Iniquity
On 10 Jun 1998, David Brain wrote:
>I look at the subject line and recall a much-missed BBC television show
>from the late 1970s.
I bet if you saw it again, you'd wonder _why_ you missed it.
--
Den