Stretched paper problem
Discussion
glued down with brown paper which requires wetting first.
I have always had problems with the paper glueing itself to the
board. Just this morning, I lost the corner of one piece. All
around the edge small pieces have been left. I think the glue on
the brown tape has leaked under the paper, and in the case of
the corner, more glue, possibly because the tape is overlapped.
Has anyone else had these problems and what is the cure?
N.H
Ima Sweat
go...@away.dot.for.good.dotcom says...
>Has anyone else had these problems and what is the cure?
>N.H
I too use the brown paper tape with hide glue
that requires wetting. I've never had a problem
like yours. Do you thoroughly soak the tape
BEFORE attempting to remove it? I use a sponge
for this purpose, which allows me to soak the
paper tape without wetting the work or smearing
the watercolor. Once the glue is wet, the tape
and the paper should separate easily.
Also, I know other artists who use a
razor blade for cutting the tape loose. They
then soak the remaining tape to remove it.
I prefer to preserve the deckled edge of my
watercolor paper - as apparently you do too -
so I prefer my method of removal.
Discussion
rewetting the tape - I suppose I was afraid of distorting the
paper again.
I will try your method next. Thanks.
N.H
"Ima Sweat" <hum...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3d1b0...@oracle.zianet.com...
Ima Sweat
go...@away.dot.for.good.dotcom says...
>
>I have used the razor blade method. I had not considered
>rewetting the tape - I suppose I was afraid of distorting the
>paper again.
ONLY WET THE TAPE - not the entire paper.
I use a large rectangular sponge and the
EDGE of the sponge is applied to the tape
all around. You may have to keep re-wetting
and applying in order to saturate the tape.
You WILL wet the paper that is under the
tape, but only that portion.
On the other hand, did you know that you
can dump an entire finished watercolor
into a water bath with very little color
being affected? Try it sometime with an
unsucessful watercolor you don't care about.
It'll put your mind at ease about colors
running, and being able to re-stretch the
paper if need be.
Leigh
be avoided. At best, it leaves a white border which needs to be matted
over, and the beautiful deckle is lost. Pins may work on light weight paper,
though I prefer heavier stock. In any case, the inevitable warping is
corrected by dampening the back of the painting and pressing between acid
free absorbent papers weighted down with plexi and weights. In a day or two,
depending on humidity and amount of moisture used, it's dry and flat as a
pancake. Do consider painting to the edge and floating your watercolors.
L.
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@SPAMBLOCKislandnet.com> wrote
>
> Never use that ugly brown butcher tape on
> beautiful watercolour papers. You lose your deckle edge.
> These edges should be preserved in case you ever
> want to frame your work with floating edges.
>
> Pin down your paper on fibre board with tiny map pins.
> They are rust proof and the holes they make virtually
> disappear afterwards.
>
> Seal your fibre board with a couple of coats of white paint.
> You can store the pins in the edges. You don't really need
> to stretch your paper by wetting it first and letting it dry,
> especially if it is under 22 x 30 inches.
> Just keep in pinned down while you work on it and this will
> prevent warping.
>
> I've been using this method and teaching it for 18 years.
> MW
Discussion
is value for money. It warps easily, not like your 200lb and
above. It is Bockingford, if you know it.
I have seen people (teachers too) using paper by pinning,
using masking tape, using blocks of preglued (aquarelle),
and all of them distorted to some degree. I might be able to work
around it, but what makes me go for the "belts & braces" overkill
of stretching, is the thought that the floating of washes is
interfered with by a distorted paper which gathers wash in pools,
or is bowed upwards so that the wash flows off right away.
I understand your opinion about using the whole paper, and if I
need to do that then I will certainly not use anything less than 250lb.
Thanks, N.H
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@SPAMBLOCKislandnet.com> wrote in message
news:3D1B9CB3...@SPAMBLOCKislandnet.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Never use that ugly brown butcher tape on
> beautiful watercolour papers. You lose your deckle edge.
> These edges should be preserved in case you ever
> want to frame your work with floating edges.
>
> Pin down your paper on fibre board with tiny map pins.
> They are rust proof and the holes they make virtually
> disappear afterwards.
>
> Seal your fibre board with a couple of coats of white paint.
> You can store the pins in the edges. You don't really need
> to stretch your paper by wetting it first and letting it dry,
> especially if it is under 22 x 30 inches.
> Just keep in pinned down while you work on it and this will
> prevent warping.
>
> I've been using this method and teaching it for 18 years.
> MW
>
> Discussion wrote:
>
Leigh
"Discussion" <go...@away.dot.for.good.dotcom>
> ... what makes me go for the "belts & braces" overkill
> of stretching, is the thought that the floating of washes is
> interfered with by a distorted paper which gathers wash in pools,
> or is bowed upwards so that the wash flows off right away.
One of the most frustrating experiences in w/c is trying to get a good wash
on buckled paper. All the more reason to use quality paper made for the job.
If the price is prohibitive, consider adhearing the paper to matboard. The
quality of your materials will be reflected in your work, which you seem to
be concerned with or the wash would not be important to you.
L.
Ima Sweat
mwe...@SPAMBLOCKislandnet.com says...
>
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Never use that ugly brown butcher tape on
>beautiful watercolour papers. You lose your deckle edge.
Absolute nonsense! If you bothered reading
my post, you'd have read that preserving the
deckled edge of the paper is important to me,
and I've ALWAYS used brown packaging (don't
know about butcher's) tape - that's the way
I learned to do it "way back when." I hate the
thought of puncturing the paper with pins or
staples as some artists are prone to do. The
problem for me is finding any more of the
brown paper tape - now that the celophane stuff
has taken front stage.
Ima Sweat
>
>I agree with Marilyn to a point. Brown paper tape is a travesty that should
>be avoided. At best, it leaves a white border which needs to be matted
>over, and the beautiful deckle is lost.
I never "matt over" the edges. I have the framer
float the paper when it's framed so that both
the deckle and the border are part of the finished
work. It is after all a watercolor, with all that
implies. If someone reframes mine to hide the
border, that is their option/taste - not mine.
I choose the same method of flotation for the
prints I sell too.
Ima Sweat
go...@away.dot.for.good.dotcom says...
>I understand your opinion about using the whole paper, and if I
>need to do that then I will certainly not use anything less than 250lb.
I too dislike using the heavy-weight papers.
Using the methods for stretching that you and
I are using - paper tape - I am able to use
full sheets (32 X 40 inches) without the fear
of buckling. There is a need to fully soak the
entire sheet of paper through and through before
stretching it, and the paper tape will not hold
if the edges are taped while too wet. It takes
a bit of experience to get it right. I let the
paper dry until all the water sheen is gone.
Ima Sweat
>consider adhearing the paper to matboard.
If that is your preference, why not simply
buy watercolor board to begin with? I know
of no satisfactory way to adhere 140lb or heavier
watercolor paper to a backing board, but I
suppose it can be done. But why? Why not
learn how to stretch watercolor paper properly
in the first place? It's not rocket science.
Ima Sweat
go...@away.dot.for.good.dotcom says...
>
>glued down with brown paper which requires wetting first.
Here is a good web demo for stretching
watercolor paper using paper tape. Unfortunately
it does not address removing the tape from the
paper after the painting is complete. Perhaps
there are other articles on this same web site
that address that issue.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/ArtSchool/Watercolors/RodWebb/StretchPaper/
Leigh
preferences, what works for us and what doesn't. You keep your butcher
paper, Marilyn can have her pins and I'll stick to unbound, heavy weight
paper and we'll all be happy. Choices are 'good things', as Martha would
say.
L.
"Ima Sweat" <hum...@noemailever.com>
Ima Sweat
>
>Don't get in a sweat, Ima...
Me sweat? NEVER. I'll even bet you're a
good Leigh! All I've done is defend against
those who say you'll loose the deckled edge
if you glue your watercolor paper down with
paper tape. Even Daniel Smith is wrong on that
score, if you've ever read the FAQ on their
web site. Where is Nita Leland when I need
her???
Leigh
"Ima Sweat" <hum...@noemailever.com> wrote
>
> I'll even bet you're a good Leigh!
Leigh, as in Vivian, unless you're assuming poetic license.
> Where is Nita Leland when I need her???
L.
Ima Sweat
mwe...@SPAMBLOCislandnet.com says...
>
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Whatcha got against map pins, Ima, or is it Jaxart?
Ever sat on one???
I could not care less how people stretch
their watercolor paper. My response was
to a person who was doing it as I do it
and having trouble removing the tape later.
That's ALL I was responding to. Then I
had to respond to your claim that one loses the
deckled edge by using tape and explained
how I remove the tape so that
the deckled edges are unaffected.
Now, go sit on a tack, Jack!
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@SPAMBLOCislandnet.com> wrote in message
>
> I don't mind giving little watercolour tips now and then
> even if some people squawk and protest about anything
> different from their own tried and true methods. I'm
> writing for the experimental artist out there and to my mind,
> if you are not experimenting, you are not an
> [oh! dare I say it? no! only Mani is qualified to dismiss
> people around here.] La plus que ca change...
>
LOL! Not living, I would have said, but that is a wider question..
--
The square and square square curves osculate at nothing, just like the
French.
Ima Sweat
mwe...@SPAMBLOCislandnet.com says...
>Why doncha try something new once in a while.
>Your way isn't always the RIGHT way.
What do you know about what I do???
And MY way may not be the RIGHT way, but it
IS MY WAY!!!
You have my permission to do things YOUR WAY,
by the way!
Andrew D
<mwe...@spamxxxslandnet.com> wrote:
+x-no-archive: yes
+
+Ima Sweat wrote:
[snip]
+> There is a need to fully soak the
+> entire sheet of paper through and through before
+> stretching it, and the paper tape will not hold
+> if the edges are taped while too wet. It takes
+> a bit of experience to get it right. I let the
+> paper dry until all the water sheen is gone.
+
+Why is there a need to take perfectly good paper which
+has been buffered and sized to receive pigment and
+soak it through and through? If the paper is held down
+securely this is not necessary. I've seen a professional
+painter paint on 40" x 60" 140lb. watercolour paper
+tacked to the wall of her studio. She later sold the
+painting for $3,000. Seems like it turned out all right.
+You should be charged with paper abuse, Jack.
I could say this is the way s/he does things - live with it. But I won't.
;)
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Discussion
tape such as masking tape(that used by internal decorators to
stop paint over run onto glass) does not work, because as soon
as the paper is wetted by a wash it distorts. Further, heavier
paper, such as 250lb NOT still distorts, but not in patches, but
bows in one direction. I still have some around the house.
If you are/have been a water colourist, then you will have used
washes, right? Then you will know that anything other than a
flat surface will not allow you control it.
The scale of distortion in lightweight paper is such that it is
impossible to lay down a wash.
I believe that those who advocate map pins, tape etc., without
presoaking, must be using an expensive paper. Please tell us all
what paper is being used, and it's density or "weight".
N.H
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@spamxxxslandnet.com> wrote in message
news:3D1FF477...@spamxxxslandnet.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
Leigh
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@SPAMBLOCislandnet.com> wrote >
> I don't mind giving little watercolour tips now and then
> even if some people squawk and protest about anything
> different from their own tried and true methods. I'm
> writing for the experimental artist out there and to my mind,
> if you are not experimenting, you are not an
I'll say it, [an artist!] because I was thinking the same thing as I caught
up on the responses in this thread. Well, at least one is not using his
creative abilities to the fullest if he is following tried and true methods
passed down as the final word in the matter. At some point, you have to
leave the pack and figure out what else is possible and maybe even better. I
don't knock any method, I shared mine and recognize the value of others. I
do have little patience with the blinder approach to making and appreciating
art.
L.
Ima Sweat
says...
>Why is there a need to take perfectly good paper which
>has been buffered and sized to receive pigment and
>soak it through and through?
Sizing and buffering have NOTHING to do
with the physics of stretching.
I'm weary of this entire thread. If you
REALLY want to know, do a bit of research.
Soaking EXPANDS the paper to the max.
You can never again expand it that much,
regardless of how much you wet it in
subsequent watercoloring applications.
If you HOLD it by taping it while it's
fully expanded, then you have paper that
is going to lie flat and behave and take
washes like good watercolor paper should.
Ima Sweat
says...
>He doesn't come to this newsgroup for tips
>and tricks but some other readers do.
Speak for yourself. You certainly have no
right to speak for me or my motives since
you haven't the foggiest...
I do try to give SOUND advice based on nearly
40 years of painting experience, which is
more than I can say for those who try to
give unsound advice based on their lack of
experience. Whether or not you choose to
take my advice is YOUR decision and it
doesn't hurt my feelings one bit. But I have
no tolerance at all for nitwits who haven't
a clue what they are talking about, closed
minds, who are just to damned ignorant
to understand what is being discussed, or
don't have even a modicum of reading
comprehension - all of which all too often
fit those who post here regularly - Mani
is EXCEPTED in this instance!!!
Ima Sweat
says...
>Actually, I don't need any man's permission to do anything.
>Okay, Jack. watch your blood pressure, now.
That's fine with me. You are free to
take or not any advice you please, including
that given by your lesbian lovers. Do you
really think I care??? You credit yourself
with more power than you will ever have if
you think what you type here can affect my
blood pressure.
Ima Sweat
>> You have my permission to do things YOUR WAY,
>> by the way!
>
>Actually, I don't need any man's permission to do anything.
I was addressing YOU as an ARTIST - regardless
of gender, religous belief, brainpower or lack
thereof, sexual preferences etc. This IS
a forum for ARTISTS, and wannabes, first and
foremost. If you can't take advice or give it
with that in mind, then you have a problem.
Maybe you should reconsider YOU'RE participation
here and seek out newsgroups that focus on
gender-specific issues.
Andrew D
<mwe...@spamxxxslandnet.com> wrote:
+Andrew D wrote:
+> In article <3D1FF477...@spamxxxslandnet.com>, Marilyn Welch
+> <mwe...@spamxxxslandnet.com> wrote:
[snip]
+> +You should be charged with paper abuse, Jack.
+> I could say this is the way s/he does things - live with it. But I won't.
+Get real, Andy! thought you were a "realist."
+I think you can be sure that Ima is a he:
Hadn't bothered to check so I played it politically correct.
+and I'm glad you didn't say
+"this is the way s/he does things - live with it"
+because I don't care how Jack does things.
But you want him charged with paper abuse?
Andrew D
<mwe...@islandnet.com> wrote:
[snip]
+Take it easy, it's only a newsgroup.
How dare you! Wash your mouth out woman!
Mon Sune
<pottedmeatproduct...@user-38lc1ah.dialup.mindspring.com>,
pottedme...@ix.netcom.com says...
>Local artists I've spoken with recommend Holbein.
I switched from favoring W&N to Holbein about
ten years ago and have never looked back.
Yes, they do manufacture some fugitive colors.
But they are up front about labeling, so you
buy with eyes open. OPERA is one of the favorites
of several watercolorists I know, but it's a
very fugitive color.
Mon Sune
>That is not what I wrote. I meant that you will
>lose the sizing when you strenuously soak
>and stretch the paper.
EXACTLY the reason MANY watercolorists soak
the paper - to get rid of excess sizing!!!
Sizing interferes with the absorbency of the
paper - apparently something you're unaware of.
Those who favor wet into wet technigues do not
like sizing - I'm sure some would be happy to
use blotter paper.
>But other posters may appreciate your
>teachings even if your delivery smacks
>of condescension.
Unfortunately I do condescend in corresponding
with you. How else can I make you understand what
is being discussed???
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Marilyn Welch" <mwe...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:3D21BB89...@islandnet.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
Dear Marilyn,
I did try to make this point in a private e-mail, but you must have missed
it.
The x-no-archive setting only works of you put it in the header.
Regards,
Peter