Comic strips and draughtsmanship
lake
matter. Like him I am a big fan of comic strips. I think of them as
experimental draughtsmanship. We are so stuck with this idea that
classical draughtsmanship is the only kind there is, and that it always
has to be so SERIOUS.
As far as I'm concerned, there are more interesting ideas about drawing
- what it is & what it might be - in the funnies than there are in the
academies. I'm sure many painters agree with this. Anybody care to post
a few favorites?
- Lake
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Erik A. Mattila
> This is inspired by what Erik Matilla said under the topic of subject
> matter. Like him I am a big fan of comic strips. I think of them as
> experimental draughtsmanship. We are so stuck with this idea that
> classical draughtsmanship is the only kind there is, and that it always
> has to be so SERIOUS.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, there are more interesting ideas about drawing
> - what it is & what it might be - in the funnies than there are in the
> academies. I'm sure many painters agree with this. Anybody care to post
> a few favorites?
>
> - Lake
Well, here's an experiment you might try. Look up Peter Max - especially his
pop-design heyday late 60s early 70s, until you get a good grasp of the
'look.' Then look up Winsor McKay's "Little Nemo in Slumberland" circa 1910,
and see if you don't agree that Max appropriated McKay's work almost to the
point of blatantly copying it.
Erik
humbert_...@my-deja.com
Now this is a fun little series of posts. I have to admit to knowing more
about comic books than strips but I agree with you both whole heartedly.
I think sometimes in trying to do fine art we end up taking ourselves way too
seriously and get all snobish. I hate this. I love to sit down and just
kick back with a beer and an old superman comic from when I was a kid. It's
a little nestalgic, but being inspired as a kid was what got me into this
business.
HUMBERT
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tooloose Lowtec
>
> This is inspired by what Erik Matilla said under the topic of subject
> matter. Like him I am a big fan of comic strips. I think of them as
> experimental draughtsmanship. We are so stuck with this idea that
> classical draughtsmanship is the only kind there is, and that it always
> has to be so SERIOUS.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, there are more interesting ideas about drawing
> - what it is & what it might be - in the funnies than there are in the
> academies. I'm sure many painters agree with this. Anybody care to post
> a few favorites?
>
Bloom County. *Great* drawings.
I've never been much of a fan of comic books, but someone drew my
attention to an British illustrator named Dave McKean - you may know him
from the cover art he did for 'The Sandman' series. Anyway, he does
cutting edge work, using the usual bag of tricks _plus_ collaged papers
& fabric; all kinds of painterly effects: deep texture, splatter,
scratching into the underlying layers, photos of real objects worked
into the drawings; computer manipulated imagery; layered images... all
in a kind of stream of consciousness approach to illustrating the storyline.
Here's his site
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/boauk/dmckean.html
Also check out Arkham Asylum, written by Grant Morrison, their extremely
*dark* version of 'Batman'. Definitely not for kids.
--
Tooloose Lowtec
painting a dark streak
lake
matters. Artists are SUPPOSED to approriate - that's what we're here
for.
Anyway neither Max nor McKay are among my favorite cartoonists. They
are both too much geared towards "fine art" for my taste. I prefer the
stick-figures of the early Warner Brothers animations (was it Warner
Brothers? I think so) - where the cat is always chasing the mice in an
almost existential drama, laden with cruelty and psychological inuendo.
I'm also seduced by the Betty Boop drawings. Talk about sexy! There has
been no sexier drawing since those Japanese woodcuts from the 18th
century. And ANIMATED no less!
Chester Gould's Dick Tracy displays some of the wildest draughtsmanship
this side of Bosch. You're a scholar, Erik - so you tell me if you can,
to what extent was Gould influenced by Picasso? I don't know it for a
fact, but I have the feeling the guy never even HEARD of Picasso.
- Lake
Erik A. Mattila
lake wrote:
> I agree with you on Max's appropriation of McKay's work. But it hardly
> matters. Artists are SUPPOSED to approriate - that's what we're here
> for.
>
> Anyway neither Max nor McKay are among my favorite cartoonists. They
> are both too much geared towards "fine art" for my taste. I prefer the
> stick-figures of the early Warner Brothers animations (was it Warner
> Brothers? I think so) - where the cat is always chasing the mice in an
> almost existential drama, laden with cruelty and psychological inuendo.
>
> I'm also seduced by the Betty Boop drawings. Talk about sexy! There has
> been no sexier drawing since those Japanese woodcuts from the 18th
> century. And ANIMATED no less!
>
> Chester Gould's Dick Tracy displays some of the wildest draughtsmanship
> this side of Bosch. You're a scholar, Erik - so you tell me if you can,
> to what extent was Gould influenced by Picasso? I don't know it for a
> fact, but I have the feeling the guy never even HEARD of Picasso.
>
> - Lake
To tell you the truth, I don't know that much about Gould. But a quick
Internet research shows that he began in the mid twenties in Chicago, and there
already was a well established 'Chicago School" by then. Neverthelesss, he's
credited with a unique style, and I have no doubt that there's merit in this.
I don't think Picasso was a household word that early, at any rate. George
Harriman is the only one I can think of who was directly influenced by a modern
art movement, principally surrealism as it was to the evolving Ashcan refugees
in Taos, where Harimann hung-out.
McKay is really interesting, however, because he was directly influenced by
Sigmund Freud's work - at least the pop-culture aspect of Freud. Little Nemo
is of course a comic of drream interpretation. It was preceded by another
strip, "Dream of a Welsh Rarebit Fiend" which was a comic of the then popular
idea that what you ate for dinner will effect your dreams.
I worked in the so-called "Underground Comix" industry in the early 70s, and
among the cartoonist I knew there was a general scorn towards the whole idea
of the 'artist.' Robert Crumb's back splash-panel on one of the early Zaps
exemplifies this attitude - A big arrow pointing to this character standing on
a pedestal with a shmock and beret, holding a pallette and brush " Don't
Listen to the Guy!!" "Anyone can draw!!" and it goes on to show three easy
lessons etc. Classic. I loved his splash panels - like "Do the world a big
favor! Kill Yourself!" or "Tommy Toilet sez "Don't forget to wipe your ass,
folks!"
Yeah, Betty Boop. Is this the original of a code of the little girl at puberty
with a squeaky voice that excites all the pedofiles in America? Do you think
there's a relation between Betty's squeak and Marilyn Monroe's squeak?
Nevertheless, that classsic cartoon with Cab Calloway singing "Hiedi Hiedi Ho"
to dancing skeletons is timeless. Very transgressional stuff.
Erik
Jaxart
lakeNO...@plateautel.net.invalid says...
>Anyway neither Max nor McKay are among my favorite cartoonists. They
>are both too much geared towards "fine art" for my taste.
I would like to refer you to one of the most intellectual
cartoonists now working who coincidentally has degree(s?)
in Fine Art -- Chris Ware. He recently made it to the cover
of New Yorker Magazine's "Fiction" issue. Chris has published
numerous comic books of the 'collector' kind. He has his
own publishing company ACME NOVELTY BOOKS. Check out his
"Wares" at http://quimby.gnus.org/warehouse/
--
============================================================
For a unique art experience visit:
http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/index.html
============================================================
christopher moss
few that I've seen have really impressed me.
How about the Kabuki series. Great drawing, this artist (can't remember
the name) always seemed interested in pushing his drawings as far as
possible, very respectable.
Ed Gorey's books have held me for longer than a lot of paintings and
other 'high art' has. Real memorable imagery, simple compositions,
ridiculous content (do I sense a crossover to another post here?) I
think that's one of the marks of greatness, if an artist can give us
something that leaves a mark in our mind.
Anybody ever read any of Jon Scieszka and Lane Smith's books? "The
stinky cheese man and other fairly stupid tales"? Not your typical comic
stuff, in fact not comics at all, more book illustrations, but they
realy push the bounds of book design, a real relief from most uptight
books I see.
-cm
christopher moss
looked at the drawings he was doing right before he painted "Guernica"?
He toys around a lot with the three panel idea that has become standard
in the strips today. I think that's an interesting idea to bring into
the narratve painting, the idea of reading the painting from left to
right, and what kinds of visual clues can be incorperated into the
painting that might foster this kind of reading, etc.
-cm
Erik A. Mattila
I've completely forgotten the terminology for the parts of a lot of
Italian renaissance paintings, but many (especially in Venice, as I
recall) had those little panels down at the bottom, which are sequencial
narrative panels, illustrating a bible story that relates to the main
image. Anybody remember what these are called?
Erik Mattila
>
>
mdeli
<lakeNO...@plateautel.net.invalid> wrote:
>This is inspired by what Erik Matilla said under the topic of subject
>matter. Like him I am a big fan of comic strips. I think of them as
>experimental draughtsmanship. We are so stuck with this idea that
>classical draughtsmanship is the only kind there is, and that it always
>has to be so SERIOUS.
You are stuck with that idea. A very average comic book artist is far
better than Picasso.
>
>As far as I'm concerned, there are more interesting ideas about drawing
>- what it is & what it might be - in the funnies than there are in the
>academies.
That's why Picasso liked comics. At least he admired his superiors.
> I'm sure many painters agree with this. Anybody care to post
>a few favorites?
>
Nestor Redondo, Alex Raymond, Hogarth, Kirby, Crumb, etc and the 19th
century guys that inspired it like Gustave Dore and Grandville etc.
Mani DeLi
...no skill no art
Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page!
http://www.interlog.com/~hugod/
Chris
christopher moss wrote:
>
> Interesting that someone should bring up Picasso here, have any of you
> looked at the drawings he was doing right before he painted "Guernica"?
> He toys around a lot with the three panel idea that has become standard
> in the strips today. I think that's an interesting idea to bring into
> the narratve painting, the idea of reading the painting from left to
> right, and what kinds of visual clues can be incorperated into the
> painting that might foster this kind of reading, etc.
>
> -cm
>
I think that - at least as far as classical western painting is
concerned - the timeline (if there is one) usually proceeds from left to
right (as in most processional images, etc.), in keeping with the the
sense of flow of dominance from left to right a la classical portraits
of couples, where the husband is usually ensconced on the viewers left
and the wife to the right; or the sense of time implied in single
portraits (where often a sitter looking to the viewers left seems to
symbolize pensiveness and reflection, while a sitter looking to the
right often indicates a forward looking nature.
That sort of coding of images probably reached a high point in the
Reformation (though I 'm sure the art historians will correct me here :)
when an artist could assume that a select audience was visually literate
to the techniques he was using, and that such an audience would have the
time and inclination to work out the ideas in a painting for themselves.
Anyway, I'd be curious as to whether other cultures - particularly those
that do not write from left to write - have a different sense of
pictorial time...
Chris
--
"Art is the supreme manifestation of individualism" - Oscar Wilde
http://www.gammarat.com (last update May 1/2000.)
humbert_...@my-deja.com
Tooloos...@DeleteThisnetscape.net wrote:
> lake wrote:
> >
> > This is inspired by what Erik Matilla said under the topic of subject
> > matter. Like him I am a big fan of comic strips. I think of them as
> > experimental draughtsmanship. We are so stuck with this idea that
> > classical draughtsmanship is the only kind there is, and that it always
> > has to be so SERIOUS.
> >
> > - what it is & what it might be - in the funnies than there are in the
> > a few favorites?
> >
>
> Bloom County. *Great* drawings.
>
> I've never been much of a fan of comic books, but someone drew my
> attention to an British illustrator named Dave McKean - you may know him
> from the cover art he did for 'The Sandman' series. Anyway, he does
> cutting edge work, using the usual bag of tricks _plus_ collaged papers
> & fabric; all kinds of painterly effects: deep texture, splatter,
> scratching into the underlying layers, photos of real objects worked
> into the drawings; computer manipulated imagery; layered images... all
> in a kind of stream of consciousness approach to illustrating the storyline.
>
> Here's his site
> http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/boauk/dmckean.html
>
> Also check out Arkham Asylum, written by Grant Morrison, their extremely
> *dark* version of 'Batman'. Definitely not for kids.
>
> --
> Tooloose Lowtec
>
> painting a dark streak
I love Arkham!!!
Also the Kabuki comics as well as the classic Dark Knight Returns a pivotal
turn in the Batman series.
I think its great that so many of us can losen our sphinkters enough to look
at a comic and love it.
My compliments to you gentlemen.
lake
itself a subject worthy of serious study. However, as a painter it is
not so much this that interests me, as the individual panel. The way
that the skilled cartoonist is able to evoke a mythological reality
with such a sparsity of means. Talk about the power of line!
By the way,has anyone noticed that we've even got mdeli agreeing with
us (more or less) on this one?
lake
wonderful. Also the anti-eye bit. What I'm wondering is, why this kind
of potential hasn't been translated yet into painting. Except for Roy
Lichtenstein, who is great, and Keith Haring who is much less so.
Basquiat gives us a clue as to what might be done.
Erik A. Mattila
in "Zap #4" The panels can be read left to right, right to left, rightsideup
or upsidedown, all while keeping inside a specific narrative flow. But Victor
is an artist - at the time, he was an instructor at SF Art Institute, and his
work is chock full of fine art references, as well as references to comic strip
history.
Also, S. Clay Wilson did some of the most interesting distortions of the
standard comic panel format. In one example (and I don't remember the
citation) you would get involved with the standard narrative sequence and then
discover that there was a large picture behind the panels which interacted with
the narrative panels - a sort of metanarrative. It was very fascinating - it
kind of crept up on you.
Erik Mattila
lake wrote:
> The processional, left-to-right orientation of comic strips is in
> itself a subject worthy of serious study. However, as a painter it is
> not so much this that interests me, as the individual panel. The way
> that the skilled cartoonist is able to evoke a mythological reality
> with such a sparsity of means. Talk about the power of line!
>
> By the way,has anyone noticed that we've even got mdeli agreeing with
> us (more or less) on this one?
>
Jaxart
lakeNO...@plateautel.net.invalid says...
>
>Yes, he's picking up on it. The series with the elf and the snowman is
>wonderful. Also the anti-eye bit. What I'm wondering is, why this kind
>of potential hasn't been translated yet into painting.
If you're asking this of Chris Ware, I certainly wouldn't
presume to guess at his motivations. But remembering him
from art school days at the University of Texas, Austin,
I can only assume that his wit and intelligence are best
served in the comic genre. Chris worked in various media
in school days, and always with non-traditional and VERY
inventive results. I recall one 'installation' he did for
a student show where he put his print-making skills to use
printing on sticks of chewing gum, and then invited the
viewers to actually help themselves to the 'prints.' He
then asked them to do something with the prints once the
flavor was gone, but I don't now recall what that was.
His student paintings were as inventive as his comic strips which
he was even then producing daily for the Daily Texan student
paper, and publishing. His Floyd McFarland comic was published
while he was still at UT. Whether or not he still paints
I don't know, but the covers for New Yorker are usually
reproductions of paintings, I think.
Erik A. Mattila
> On Thu, 04 May 2000 03:48:24 GMT, "Erik A. Mattila"
> <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>
> >You might be interested in looking at Victor Moscoso's "Hocus Pokus" which was
> >in "Zap #4" The panels can be read left to right, right to left, rightsideup
> >or upsidedown, all while keeping inside a specific narrative flow. But Victor
> >is an artist - at the time, he was an instructor at SF Art Institute, and his
> >work is chock full of fine art references, as well as references to comic strip
> >history.
>
> Does Moskoso paint? I met him in art school. I'm not sure it was him
> who told me he could draw as well as Leonardo. It was long ago.
Funny, I've never seen his paintings. But he taught painting for years at the SF
Art Instution. He graduated from Cooper Union and also studied at Yale. The few
time I met him we never talked about art. The last time I talked to him, for
instance, he was telling me how he got a 'brand new' stock engine for his '48 Chevy
convertable. He had discovered that Toyota had bought all the original dies from
GM, and this was the engine they used in their Land Cruiser (the best 238 every
built by Chevy, BTW). So he bought one brand new from Toyota. This was about
1973.
But the art image database @ http://www.thinker.org has some of his posters, and
one lithograph. The search field is down at the bottom. They also have Stanley
Mouse, Rick Griffin, and the rest of the rock-poster artists. Some really nice
work, in my opinion. A nice page of Crumb's work as well.
>
> >
> >Also, S. Clay Wilson did some of the most interesting distortions of the
> >standard comic panel format. In one example (and I don't remember the
> >citation) you would get involved with the standard narrative sequence and then
> >discover that there was a large picture behind the panels which interacted with
> >the narrative panels - a sort of metanarrative. It was very fascinating - it
> >kind of crept up on you.
> >
> Crumbs prolific distortions and superb draftsmanship are way ahead of
> all the other underground artists. I'm not saying that a lot of
> underground stuff isn't fine work but none I've seen is up to Crumb.
> And I have a nice collection of underground comics.
Crumb studied Basil Wolverton seriously - the 'master.' If you look at Wolverton
and Crumb works side by side, you can see the connection. But Crumb also had an
edge on many because he could tell a good story - the 'other' part of comics. Some
of the others were ok if you were properly pyschedellicized, I guess, but the
storis were often awkward, even though the art may have been great. Personally, I
think Rick Griffin could hold a candle to Crumb. Another who is outstanding in
every respect is Dan O'Niel. Dan was actually recruited by the SF Chronical right
out of Sacramento City College to do Odd Bodkins, when he was 19. He immediately
got into political trouble, of course. Even though the comic strip was a SF
favorite, it was discontinued...
Erik Mattila
mdeli
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>You might be interested in looking at Victor Moscoso's "Hocus Pokus" which was
>in "Zap #4" The panels can be read left to right, right to left, rightsideup
>or upsidedown, all while keeping inside a specific narrative flow. But Victor
>is an artist - at the time, he was an instructor at SF Art Institute, and his
>work is chock full of fine art references, as well as references to comic strip
>history.
Does Moskoso paint? I met him in art school. I'm not sure it was him
who told me he could draw as well as Leonardo. It was long ago.
>
>Also, S. Clay Wilson did some of the most interesting distortions of the
>standard comic panel format. In one example (and I don't remember the
>citation) you would get involved with the standard narrative sequence and then
>discover that there was a large picture behind the panels which interacted with
>the narrative panels - a sort of metanarrative. It was very fascinating - it
>kind of crept up on you.
>
Crumbs prolific distortions and superb draftsmanship are way ahead of
all the other underground artists. I'm not saying that a lot of
underground stuff isn't fine work but none I've seen is up to Crumb.
And I have a nice collection of underground comics.
Mani DeLi
mdeli
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>mdeli wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 04 May 2000 03:48:24 GMT, "Erik A. Mattila"
>> <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>>
>> >You might be interested in looking at Victor Moscoso's "Hocus Pokus" which was
>> >in "Zap #4"
>>
>> Does Moskoso paint? I met him in art school. I'm not sure it was him
>> who told me he could draw as well as Leonardo. It was long ago.
>
>Funny, I've never seen his paintings. But he taught painting for years at the SF
>Art Instution. He graduated from Cooper Union and also studied at Yale.
Yep, it was Cooper Union.
>> >Also, S. Clay Wilson did some of the most interesting distortions of the
>> >standard comic panel format. In one example (and I don't remember the
>> >citation) you would get involved with the standard narrative sequence and then
>> >discover that there was a large picture behind the panels which interacted with
>> >the narrative panels - a sort of metanarrative. It was very fascinating - it
>> >kind of crept up on you.
>> >
>> Crumbs prolific distortions and superb draftsmanship are way ahead of
>> all the other underground artists. I'm not saying that a lot of
>> underground stuff isn't fine work but none I've seen is up to Crumb.
>> And I have a nice collection of underground comics.
>
>Crumb studied Basil Wolverton seriously - the 'master.'
He studied all comics. I even vaguly remember that he ran a comic book
museum in the East Village, I think it was his.
> If you look at Wolverton
>and Crumb works side by side, you can see the connection. But Crumb also had an
>edge on many because he could tell a good story - the 'other' part of comics.
Crumb was capable of complexity in all reapects. His light and
shade,play with reality and draftsmanship are up with the best.
>Some
>of the others were ok if you were properly pyschedellicized, I guess, but the
>storis were often awkward, even though the art may have been great.
I guess S C WIlson would be too much for most here, especially the
phoney prudes.
> Personally, I
>think Rick Griffin could hold a candle to Crumb. Another who is outstanding in
>every respect is Dan O'Niel. Dan was actually recruited by the SF Chronical right
>out of Sacramento City College to do Odd Bodkins, when he was 19. He immediately
>got into political trouble, of course. Even though the comic strip was a SF
>favorite, it was discontinued...
>
I like them all. They were such a relief after growing up in the 50's.
BTW all may be interested to know that Mad Comics is available
complete on disk. I also hope a lot of other comics will be out on
disk soon.
Erik A. Mattila
>
> I guess S C WIlson would be too much for most here, especially the
> phoney prudes.
Think so? I think most here would enjoy Ruby the Dyke vs. Captain Pisssgums and his
Pervert Pirate Crew. Wilson's probably gathering all his new material from usenet
now, anyway.
I never did meet Wilson, but we had an exchange of nasty notes. I was stripping his
works, and unlike the rest of the artists we were printing, he didn't seem to grasp
'proportioning' for a comic book format. So when each book was printed, his stories
had wide margins on top and bottom, or inside/outside, and he wrote me a really nasty
note complaining about this. What I did was make him up a 'proportion kit' out of
litho film. Various size formats that he could work on, with the proportion angle
transecting the sheet - plus instructions. I guess it worked, since after that his
work was dead on.
Erik
mdeli
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>mdeli wrote
>
>>
>> I guess S C WIlson would be too much for most here, especially the
>> phoney prudes.
>
>Think so? I think most here would enjoy Ruby the Dyke vs. Captain Pisssgums and his
>Pervert Pirate Crew. Wilson's probably gathering all his new material from usenet
>now, anyway.
>
Yeah I wonder what they would think of the next to the last page of
"Snatch."
Have you ever seen "Inner City Romance?" Signed Colwell. Know
aanything about him?
Mani DeLi
Modern Academic Art is incompetence in search of an idea.