Borges and modernism vs. postmodernism
ezu...@mindless.com
"modernism vs. postmodernism".
If anyone has any specific angles they would suggest, that is, from what
perspective I might approach this (narratively, fiction vs. reality, author,
autonomy etc.), then I would appreciate it if you could mail me any
suggestions.
(I have read quite a bit on modernism and postmoderism, so I惴 not coming from
nowhere, but, as I said, I惴 missing "the angle" at this point in time, and so
maybe some external input would help me get to grips with things).
/Oe/
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Bryn_Ayers
ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
berk!
Think about something +real+ for a change...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make
Gods by the dozen!" -- Michel de Montaigne (1533-92).
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
GERALD O'CONNELL
ezu...@mindless.com wrote in message <7fsgb2$ib$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I´ve been asked to write a paper on Borges "labyrinths" in the context of
>"modernism vs. postmodernism".
>
>If anyone has any specific angles they would suggest, that is, from what
>perspective I might approach this (narratively, fiction vs. reality,
author,
>autonomy etc.), then I would appreciate it if you could mail me any
>suggestions.
>
from
>nowhere, but, as I said, I´m missing "the angle" at this point in time, and
so
>maybe some external input would help me get to grips with things).
>
>/Oe/
>
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Borges is a personal hero for me, so my suggestions are tainted only by the
purest affection.
1) Look always for his ability to summarise (even before it has happened) a
whole intellectual industry in a few pages, or even a few phrases. In Pierre
Menard he covers more intellectual territory than Derrida has managed going
down the same road for a whole career, and delivers more irony. Insofar as
postmodernism requires as its precursor a radical questioning of modernism's
implicit assumptions about the relationships between author, text and
reader, you will find enough in that one story for your doctorate.
2) Borges was interviewed on TV in the UK a few years before he died. Asked
if he was looking forward to reaching 100 years of age, the blind eyes
twinkled, a sly grin crossed his face like birds in flight, migrating to
oblivion, and he replied "Why do you place so much faith in the decimal
system ?" Perhaps this reveals the source of much of his genius: his grasp
of the distinction between the contingent and the essential shines like a
jewel throughout Labyrinths, and transcends the modernist/postmodernist
dialectic with an irony that is acutely mischievous.
Confronted with your task I would take the Borgesian route, renounce all
faith in literary and textual analysis, and follow the second suggestion by
writing a post-postmodern paper titled "The contingent and the essential:
textual mischief in the Labyrinth of analysis" - you will discover, of
course, that Borges writes of a library in which this very text may already
be found, with one or two minor variations in punctuation from the version
you will eventually write....
GERALD O'CONNELL
Bryn_Ayers wrote in message <7ftnpj$s3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7fsgb2$ib$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
>
>berk!
>
>Think about something +real+ for a change...
>
>////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>"O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make
>Gods by the dozen!" -- Michel de Montaigne (1533-92).
>////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Why do you place so much faith in reality ?
Gerald O'Connell
http://www.gacoc.demon.co.uk
Over...@orion.com
> In article <7fsgb2$ib$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
>
> berk!
>
> Think about something +real+ for a change...
This is as real as it gets, pal. That god-awful TV/People Magazine world
out there is the illusion.
Overlord
myfan...@my-dejanews.com
"GERALD O'CONNELL" <g...@gacoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Bryn_Ayers wrote in message <7ftnpj$s3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
> >Think about something +real+ for a change...
> Why do you place so much faith in reality ?
I place reality in faith
> Gerald O'Connell
> http://www.gacoc.demon.co.uk
^^^^^
GEt Behind me Demon!
Bryn (somewhere stalking phil) Ayers
myfan...@my-dejanews.com
Over...@Orion.com wrote:
> Bryn_Ayers <br...@wralaw.com> wrote:
> > In article <7fsgb2$ib$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
> > Think about something +real+ for a change...
> This is as real as it gets, pal. That god-awful TV/People Magazine world
> out there is the illusion.
The intellectualized philosophies of critical theory are nearly
as real as a people-mag/tv (out there!)... A rhetoric for the
ego(me thinks I'm intelligent), rather than the id(serb bad)!
Ciao!
Bryn poMOMa'(never phil) Ayers...
Bartelby
>I扉e been asked to write a paper on Borges "labyrinths" in the context of
>"modernism vs. postmodernism".
like the other fellow, I love borges so much i have to write
something, though I don't have any all encompassing angle for
you.
He said "contingent and essential..."
Lets say the contingent is "who shoots who" in garden of the
forking paths... these are mortal matters... forensic,
accountable, knowable to the last detail... this is the modern
obsession. Even with dreams, we must map!
But the story isn't about that. Its about the process in
which these things come to pass... the observation of the
possible transcends the mudane facts, and enhances them.
The Kingdom overlayed with the perfect map... this is
modernism.... the map AS the kingdom. That's PM. And while
the process of the possible is as ancient an essence of life as
the hills, the facts, the modern mundane facts of Borges... one
man, literary work, between two covers... make the MEANING of
his work a big red arrow pointing at PM without giving up the
UNIVERSALITY that the modernists always sought and usually failed
to aheive.
I'm rambling.
I'd say the MAP is as good an angle as any. What would
a map of the garden of forking paths look like? The Kings
Gardens are mapped by the poet who must be destroyed. Menard
draws the perfect map of a passage of cervantes. What if God
Drew a map of all he knew? THE TOTAL MAP... where on the map
would we see the map? This is the modern question. It demands a
difference between representation and reality. The PM gives up
and says THERE IS ONLY THE MAP.
Ted Samsel
: On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:18:27 GMT, ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
: >I´ve been asked to write a paper on Borges "labyrinths" in the context of
: >"modernism vs. postmodernism".
Where's the source of the cartographic metadata? And the accuracy?
(Part of my job..)
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
"do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
Gerry Quinn
Don't forget it was Lewis Carroll, rather than Borges, who came up with the
concept of the map that overlayed the kingdom. (The solution, in this case,
was to use the kingdom as a map.)
Borges writes well, but I don't think his playful reifications of mathematical
concepts have any deeper import than those of Carroll.
- Gerry Quinn
Bartelby
>Where's the source of the cartographic metadata? And the accuracy?
>
>(Part of my job..)
>
>--
>Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
> "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
> Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
I saw a PBS special on the crime fighting map in NYC... pretty
cool for carto-philes on the latest trends. The narrator called
it a "Geographic represention of reality." I would rather think
it was the obverse.
Other than that I must say I don;t have a clue what your
getting at.
Bartelby
>
>Don't forget it was Lewis Carroll, rather than Borges, who came up with the
>concept of the map that overlayed the kingdom. (The solution, in this case,
>was to use the kingdom as a map.)
>
>Borges writes well, but I don't think his playful reifications of mathematical
>concepts have any deeper import than those of Carroll.
>
>- Gerry Quinn
>
you say he makes a simple mathematical concept into a prable...
but I think the implications he shows us in those concepts ae of
far more import to us as people than the concepts are imprtant to
math.
"identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
In addition, Borges MO is a lampoon of scholarship as
such, and this factor is what makes interesting ANOTHER treatment
of Aristotles' tortise.
Jeffrey A. Del Col
In a previous article, p...@outrageous.net (Bartelby) says:
>
>>Where's the source of the cartographic metadata? And the accuracy?
>>
>>(Part of my job..)
>>
>>--
>>Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
>> "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
>> Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
>
>
>I saw a PBS special on the crime fighting map in NYC... pretty
>cool for carto-philes on the latest trends. The narrator called
>it a "Geographic represention of reality." I would rather think
>it was the obverse.
>
A realistic representation of geography?
A representative geography of reality?
A geographic reality of representation?
Other than that I must say I don;t have a clue what your
>getting at.
>
J. Del Col (studying top. maps of the Harman, WV area in preparation
for a trout fishing foray.)
(and recalling the ROTC classes in which he learned the Universal
Military Grid System, in case he gives up on the Hare's Ear
nymphs and decides to call in an air strike on the brookies)
--
1789 The new pagans meant at Paris to resurrect the old--
willfully ignorant of the classic people
who, ignoring Aurelius, demanded more artful public death--
and copied them faithfully.
Michael Carley
>I saw a PBS special on the crime fighting map in NYC... pretty
>cool for carto-philes on the latest trends. The narrator called
>it a "Geographic represention of reality." I would rather think
ObBooks: Anything by Edward Tufte (`The visual representation of
quantitative information', `Envisioning information')
--
``Permitt not your schollars to ramble abroad, especially lett them not
soe much as peepe into a tavern or tipleing house'' (Provost Loftus).
My return address has the user name reversed.
Gerry Quinn
>
>>
>>Don't forget it was Lewis Carroll, rather than Borges, who came up with the
>>concept of the map that overlayed the kingdom. (The solution, in this case,
>>was to use the kingdom as a map.)
>>
>>Borges writes well, but I don't think his playful reifications of mathematical
>>concepts have any deeper import than those of Carroll.
>>
>>- Gerry Quinn
>>
> Well, Borges works with this archetype and others, and as
>you say he makes a simple mathematical concept into a prable...
>but I think the implications he shows us in those concepts ae of
>far more import to us as people than the concepts are imprtant to
>math.
They aren't really implications of the concepts - the concept is used to hint
at some vague analogy in human life, but the model is not accurate so the
analogy is not precise.
> "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
>context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
>Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
>is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
> In addition, Borges MO is a lampoon of scholarship as
>such, and this factor is what makes interesting ANOTHER treatment
>of Aristotles' tortise.
Carroll's MO was much the same! Not that I am knocking the ability of either
to get you thinking. But, to use another Borgesian idea: the fact that you
can draw certain ideas from Borges does not mean he put them in the story, any
more than the authors of the Library of Babel could claim the credit for all
the works of Borges, even though they are undoubtedly to be found there.
- Gerry Quinn
Ariane
On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Bartelby wrote:
> Well, Borges works with this archetype and others, and as
> you say he makes a simple mathematical concept into a prable...
> but I think the implications he shows us in those concepts ae of
> far more import to us as people than the concepts are imprtant to
> math.
> "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
> context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
=== One objection: mathematical identity is essentially so in terms of
stable equivalency. Identity in humans is essentially experiential and
therefore fluid. More a range of probability, or a field of relations
than a stable equivalency......just a thought.
A.
G*rd*n
Bartelby wrote:
| > Well, Borges works with this archetype and others, and as
| > you say he makes a simple mathematical concept into a prable...
| > but I think the implications he shows us in those concepts ae of
| > far more import to us as people than the concepts are imprtant to
| > math.
| > "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
| > context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
Ariane <da_l...@alcor.concordia.ca>:
| === One objection: mathematical identity is essentially so in terms of
| stable equivalency. Identity in humans is essentially experiential and
| therefore fluid. More a range of probability, or a field of relations
| than a stable equivalency......just a thought.
A genealogy.
--
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 4/15 <-adv't
tejas
>
> p...@outrageous.net (Bartelby) writes:
>
> >I saw a PBS special on the crime fighting map in NYC... pretty
> >cool for carto-philes on the latest trends. The narrator called
> >it a "Geographic represention of reality." I would rather think
>
> ObBooks: Anything by Edward Tufte (`The visual representation of
> quantitative information', `Envisioning information')
Tufte is a must for anyone interested in the visual display or
rendering of information. Don't forget Dr. Mark Monomier and his
HOW TO LIE WITH MAPS.
--
TBSa...@richmond.infi.net (also te...@infi.net)
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Lewis Mammel
> "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
> context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
> Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
> is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly
... I think that's interesting, don't you?
- from a greeting card
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Bartelby
<da_l...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>On 30 Apr 1999, G*rd*n wrote:
>
>> Ariane:
>
>> | === One objection: mathematical identity is essentially so in terms of
>> | stable equivalency. Identity in humans is
>> A genealogy.
I didn't mean identity as in "Are you an Un?"
but that makes an important point
to have an "un" identity shows us that
rheotrical/mathematical fucnctions do play a literal role in
human identity, as well as, and this is what i meant--
"identity" for 1=1 is not literally very exciting, to to say
"that tree is the same as itself" is a mind bender-- are we
equal to ourselves? Do we only exist in oppostion to an Other,
and if so, what happens when that other is ourself--hat,
literally, is the analogistic tweak I was getting at
Bartelby
<lhma...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Bartelby wrote:
>
>> "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
>> context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
>> Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
>> is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
>
>
> Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly
>
> ... I think that's interesting, don't you?
An old fish comes up to some young punk fish and says "hey boys
hows the water?"
"What's water?"
Bartelby
wrote:
>In article <3729d318....@news.outrageous.net>, p...@outrageous.net (Bartelby) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Don't forget it was Lewis Carroll, rather than Borges, who came up with the
>>>concept of the map that overlayed the kingdom. (The solution, in this case,
>>>was to use the kingdom as a map.)
>>>
>>>Borges writes well, but I don't think his playful reifications of mathematical
>>>concepts have any deeper import than those of Carroll.
>>>
>>>- Gerry Quinn
>>>
>> Well, Borges works with this archetype and others, and as
>>you say he makes a simple mathematical concept into a prable...
>>but I think the implications he shows us in those concepts ae of
>>far more import to us as people than the concepts are imprtant to
>>math.
>
>They aren't really implications of the concepts - the concept is used to hint
>at some vague analogy in human life, but the model is not accurate so the
>analogy is not precise.
A mathematical analogy is supposed to be precise-- rhetoical ones
are not. "The rising sun is a bird." This is a refutation of
precision-- and metaphor is up to the challenge for most
powerful linguistic form from math anytime. And between you and
me,,
I think metaphor wins
>> "identity," could be the axiom for the Map... and in the
>>context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
>>Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
>>is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
>> In addition, Borges MO is a lampoon of scholarship as
>>such, and this factor is what makes interesting ANOTHER treatment
>>of Aristotles' tortise.
>
>Carroll's MO was much the same! Not that I am knocking the ability of either
>to get you thinking. But, to use another Borgesian idea: the fact that you
>can draw certain ideas from Borges does not mean he put them in the story, any
>more than the authors of the Library of Babel could claim the credit for all
>the works of Borges, even though they are undoubtedly to be found there.
Wasn;t Carol personal tutor to the Queen? Anytime a person of
emminece in a respected field does some wierd stuff on the side--
it shows his genius is in the context of life. Borges certainly
grappled with the context of life, these pre-existing ideas, and
casting them as "out there" is part of HIS method. They are his,
also. But Borges was just a writer. He was not the greatest
Librarian in the world-- that would be silly.
He is just a parablist. When Nabakov was confronted with
the assertion that he and Borges were the best writers at the
time, nabakov said "His (work) is like a porch with a beutiful
view-- and no house attached."
mdeli
<da_l...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>=== One objection: mathematical identity is essentially so in terms of
>stable equivalency. Identity in humans is essentially experiential and
>therefore fluid. More a range of probability, or a field of relations
>than a stable equivalency......just a thought.
>
>A.
A very muddled one indeed.
Mani DeLi
...no skill no art
A Skeptical View of Modern Art was updated Jan.16,99
check out my new book, new work, new comments at:.
http://www.interlog.com/~hugod/
Marilyn
>
> On Sat, 01 May 1999 11:45:03 -0500, Lewis Mammel
> <lhma...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >Bartelby wrote:
> >
> >> context of math everyone knows that a number is equal to itself.
> >> Its so damn obvious it gets you thinking, and the obvious in life
> >> is far more interesting than the comlex, don't you think?
> >
> >
> >
> > ... I think that's interesting, don't you?
>
> An old fish comes up to some young punk fish and says "hey boys
> hows the water?"
> "What's water?"
>
> >
> > - from a greeting card
> >
> >
> >Lew Mammel, Jr.
or young child answers the phone.
Caller: Can you tell your daddy, Brian called?
Write that down. That's B - R - I - A - N.
Child:
How do you make a 'B?'
Jesse Cohn
On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 ezu...@mindless.com wrote:
> I´ve been asked to write a paper on Borges "labyrinths" in the context of
> "modernism vs. postmodernism".
>
> If anyone has any specific angles they would suggest [...]
you know, this is sort of off-the-cuff, so i'm not sure how robust this
suggestion will turn out to be, but maybe some of borges' stories are
"postmodern" while others are "modernist."
i was just rereading some stuff william spanos was writing ("detective
and the boundary" in *repetitions*) about the intrusion of *time* (and
with it, of decay, of degeneration, of movement-towards-death) in
postmodern literature, where modernist literature had aimed at the
transcendence of time -- james joyce's protagonist stephen dedalus thinks
art should "arrest" the mind, and the epiphanies in his *dubliners*
stories are just such moments of mental "arrest". (or think of yeats'
"sailing to byzantium" -- "carry me into the artifice of eternity".)
anyway, with that handle in mind, some of borges' story-worlds seem to
be infected with time: in "the library of babel," the universe may be
infinite and eternal, but the human race doesn't seem to have that long to
live -- it's becoming barbarous, self-annihilating, subcumbing to entropy.
then i think of a story like "the house of asterion," which is built
around the paradox of how it could have been written: is it written *by*
the minotaur (it's in the first person, after all, until the end)? in that
case, how can the end of the story take place after the minotaur has been
killed? and what about the minotaur's express contempt for "writing"? not
to mention the complication of the "footnote"... okay, now, backing up
from these questions: does borges' presenting us with such a paradox tend
to "arrest" the mind, to put us in a state of "deadlock"? or does it make
us continue the *process* of reading even after we are "done" with it?
what sort of "infinity" or "eternity" opens up here?? (modernist eternity,
or postmodern infinity of interpretations?)
what happens to how we look at time and death when we read borges??
--jesse.