Classic technique
Mani Deli
Ideally speaking it addresses no particular style. It is rote. It is a
collection of information on, how to draw any form, painting
technique, craft and the scientific basis of art from drawing to
color. Classical technique is nothing more than a foundation.
To claim that this body of basic knowledge will somehow hamper your
"freedom," is as silly as saying that learning grammar will cramp your
abilities to express your ideas in writing. Of course knowing grammar
doesn't guarantee that you will ever have any ideas,
Rote isn't a "license" to anything. What one does with it good or not,
is for viewers to decide.
However Ignorance of technique and craft is almost always a guarantee
of failure.
Those who haven't learned there craft, a fact which any idiot can
discern by looking at their work, will invent all sorts of warnings
that skill and craftsmanship are dangerous or old fashioned; that if
you learn the basics which they label academic, you will loose your
freedom, your creativity and you will only be able to draw exactly
what you see in front of you and you will produce little more than
candy boxes etc. etc. In reality, they suggest that you remain an
ignoramus.
Tired of Modern Art? See-
http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
Alex
An existence of classic technique implies that there was a time when
such technique didn't exist. One is to assume that, slowly and
painstakingly, gifted artists have arrived at a set of tricks which
work under various circumstances. Then, those tricks got classified,
documented, and transmitted via some educational setup.
The first question that comes to mind is: who taught the inventors of
classic technique? It certainly wasn't revealed by God, or by any
prophet. Classic technique is self-awakened.
Knowing that, we can extrapolate that there was a time when a
different set of tricks was known as 'classic technique', only that
classic technique wasn't the same one being taught today. Our classic
technique is Euro-centric, and is confined to several most recent
centuries (no more than five or six centuries). As we all know, art
has been with humanity from the very beginning. Are you implying that
people were incapable of creating divine, beautifull works of art
before Van Eyck (or whoever else of the European painters you think
first instigated classic technique) emerged on the scene? That would
be ludicrous, because there are sublime works of art to be found in
any continent, from any era.
I'm not saying that classic technique is not phenomenally good, only
that it is merely another tool in the vast toolbox that is at today's
artist's disposal.
Alex
Mani Deli
Read about it.
>Knowing that, we can extrapolate that there was a time when a
>different set of tricks was known as 'classic technique', only that
>classic technique wasn't the same one being taught today. Our classic
>technique is Euro-centric, and is confined to several most recent
>centuries (no more than five or six centuries).
All art, Persian, Chinese Japanese etc. use aspects of classical
technique.
>As we all know, art
>has been with humanity from the very beginning. Are you implying that
>people were incapable of creating divine, beautifull works of art
>before Van Eyck (or whoever else of the European painters you think
>first instigated classic technique) emerged on the scene?
No.
> That would
>be ludicrous, because there are sublime works of art to be found in
>any continent, from any era.
>
>I'm not saying that classic technique is not phenomenally good, only
>that it is merely another tool in the vast toolbox that is at today's
>artist's disposal.
>
Anything wrong with "tools as you call them?"
Dilettante
> >> Those who haven't learned there craft, a fact which any idiot can
> >> discern by looking at their work, will invent all sorts of warnings
> >> that skill and craftsmanship are dangerous or old fashioned; that if
> >> you learn the basics which they label academic,
Actually, I think art schools have now rejected classical technique.
For example--Renaissance perspective and classical drawing are not
required skills anymore.
> >
> >An existence of classic technique implies that there was a time when
> >such technique didn't exist. One is to assume that, slowly and
> >painstakingly, gifted artists have arrived at a set of tricks which
> >work under various circumstances. Then, those tricks got classified,
> >documented, and transmitted via some educational setup.
Yes, this is exactly right, and the discipline of the Classics or Art
History can show us the timeline.
In the Archaic period of ancient Greek art (Before about 500 BC),
Greek drawing, such as that on ceramics; and sculpture, such as the
Kore and Kouros statues, were primitive although lively and charming.
Starting at about 500 BC, however, especially around the time of the
Parthenon (430 BC), Greek art make extraordinary leaps. Drawing on
ceramics became much more adept. In the late Greek classical period,
it became empty and purely decorative although technically excellent.
Sculpture, by people like Myron and Praxiteles, displayed biological
accuracy and aesthetic grace.
But the ancient Greeks did not develop classical painting. Much of
this style of rendering was worked out beginning in the late medieval
period in Italy, in the 15th century, building on Byzantine style.
About this time, the northern Europeans invented oil painting.
These are some of the historical origins of what we think of as
classical style.
Dilettante
Mani Deli
>Mani Deli <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<62ipnv8fspp4tpg9o...@4ax.com>...
>
>> >> Those who haven't learned there craft, a fact which any idiot can
>> >> discern by looking at their work, will invent all sorts of warnings
>> >> that skill and craftsmanship are dangerous or old fashioned; that if
>> >> you learn the basics which they label academic,
>
>Actually, I think art schools have now rejected classical technique.
Most have. That was my point in many messages. They have substituted
the teaching of no technique.
>For example--Renaissance perspective and classical drawing are not
>required skills anymore.
>
Drawing is drawing. Most art schools have students who know almost no
art history imagine that everything that isn't Modern Academic Art is
Renaissance. I wonder why students even bother standing in front of a
nude model and trying to get a result which amounts to more than the
usual dirty paper. Indeed most of the time is spent on decorative art
which they call Modern and useless doubletalk and why an art degree is
so worthless.
>> >
>> >An existence of classic technique implies that there was a time when
>> >such technique didn't exist. One is to assume that, slowly and
>> >painstakingly, gifted artists have arrived at a set of tricks which
>> >work under various circumstances. Then, those tricks got classified,
>> >documented, and transmitted via some educational setup.
>
>Yes, this is exactly right, and the discipline of the Classics or Art
>History can show us the timeline.
Yes, its all just tricks. It took the best minds a century to find out
how to use these tricks which with Modern Academic Art have
deteriorated into vestigial useless aphorisms like the stuff you just
wrote.
>In the Archaic period of ancient Greek art (Before about 500 BC),
>Greek drawing, such as that on ceramics; and sculpture, such as the
>Kore and Kouros statues, were primitive although lively and charming.
I find the period dull and over-rated. The only reason its a big deal
today is because its as dull as Picasso and fashionable
no-skill-realism.
> Starting at about 500 BC, however, especially around the time of the
>Parthenon (430 BC), Greek art make extraordinary leaps. Drawing on
>ceramics became much more adept. In the late Greek classical period,
>it became empty and purely decorative although technically excellent.
>Sculpture, by people like Myron and Praxiteles, displayed biological
>accuracy and aesthetic grace.
---for someone who dislikes fine drawing! Picasso constantly used
blow- ups of Greek Bronze engravings to schmier over.
Dilettante
> >Actually, I think art schools have now rejected classical technique.
>
> Most have. That was my point in many messages. They have substituted
> the teaching of no technique.
This is not true at all. Art schools are teaching definite aesthetic
techniques in addition to technical matters like how to make linoleum
prints, etc. The book, Form, Space, and Vision, by Collier is an art
schoo textbook teaching modern aesthetic techniques.
>
> >For example--Renaissance perspective and classical drawing are not
> >required skills anymore.
> >
> Drawing is drawing.
Then I suppose you would not regard the abstract drawings of Victor
Pasmore as valid art.
> >> >
> >> >An existence of classic technique implies that there was a time when
> >> >such technique didn't exist. One is to assume that, slowly and
> >> >painstakingly, gifted artists have arrived at a set of tricks which
> >> >work under various circumstances. Then, those tricks got classified,
> >> >documented, and transmitted via some educational setup.
> >
> >Yes, this is exactly right, and the discipline of the Classics or Art
> >History can show us the timeline.
>
> Yes, its all just tricks. It took the best minds a century to find out
> how to use these tricks which with Modern Academic Art have
> deteriorated into vestigial useless aphorisms like the stuff you just
> wrote.
I was not saying like the previous poster, that classical technique is
tricks but that it is techniques. I was saying it was exactly right
that there is a definite history to the invention of those techniques.
And in a sense all art is the creation of illusion, so in a sense yes
it is all tricks, even your carnival mirror distortions.
> I find the period dull and over-rated. The only reason its a big deal
> today is because its as dull as Picasso and fashionable
> no-skill-realism.
Not really. If you look at how funny and full of life those archaic
drawings were, for examples the one of Ulysses and his ship on the
calyx, they are better as art than more refined drawings that came
later.
In the late Greek classical period,
> >it became empty and purely decorative although technically excellent.
> >Sculpture, by people like Myron and Praxiteles, displayed biological
> >accuracy and aesthetic grace.
>
> ---for someone who dislikes fine drawing!
You mean for someone you is bored by technique empty of life.
Picasso constantly used
> blow- ups of Greek Bronze engravings to schmier over.
Except that Picasso's classical pieces were never copies.
Dilettante
Mia
Hi all!
I have been enjoying the war on traditional vs. modern art.
Personally I like this analogy with music: if a musician hasn't learnt
the technique and skill of playing an instrument, s/he will never be able to
play music. There just won't be any getting away with it.
I wonder why modern art, the stuff devoid of any craft or skill, can be
experienced as 'visual music' by comparison? My conclusion is that this
modern 'art' in reality functions (can only be understood as valid) in its
role as a market place.
And yet.... maybe there is something more to all of this. The ingredients of
a good painting for me are not entirely skills based. Just as a person has
learned to play the piano may play music that is expresionless and dead,
same follows with paintings. eg. I feel that the pre-raphelite stuff suffers
from technique literally done to death. Whereas Bonnard may be pulled down
for dodgy drawing skills, for me his paintings possess much more life...
very human, emotive and honest. His skills in composition and colour are
admirable but he has this extra quality...
So is that what modern art is trying to abstract? Literally, the creative
process alone? The question must be whether the creative process can be an
abstract thing if we want to quantify it on a scale of beautiful, ie.
independent of any skill, technique, medium of expression etc. May ask this
question in alt.philosophy...
More simply put, if you can't tell the difference between the fridge pin up
of a six year old and a work of modern art, how do we abstract the two
different creative processes (they must be, musn't they... we do have
different things to express at different ages in our lives???)
I live in hope of getting 'it' one day.
Mia
Oran G. Tang
mia.sa...@ntlworld.com says...
>I live in hope of getting 'it' one day.
>
>Mia
Perhaps you can persuade Mani to let you
join his club. We've all been hoping - for
years now - that he might one day "get it."
Some of us gave up hope on that score years
ago! Other fresh faces keep him feeling
young, unfortunately, and as long as there
are naivetes out there, Mani will soldier on...
Erik A. Mattila
Is that you, Jack? When I saw your new handle it made me remember Red
Foxx' old "Prune Tang" routine. Oh, I know, you never listened to those
dirty records.
Erik
>
>
>
>
Oran G. Tang
>Oh, I know, you never listened to those
>dirty records.
>
>Erik
Mmmmmm...you could be right, but then I
did read God's Little Acre once upon
a time. I tried to read Lady Chatterly's
Lover, but found it too intellectual for
me. Anyway, it was hard to find anything
"dirty" about some art forms after having
spent a childhood crossing over into Juarez
for Saturday after-the-matinee entertainment.
Usually the first thing offered to us as
we "crossed the bridge" in those days were
the pulp "fuck" comics - just before we
turned the corner into the red light district.
Alex
> Personally I like this analogy with music: if a musician hasn't learnt
> the technique and skill of playing an instrument, s/he will never be able to
> play music. There just won't be any getting away with it.
I'm not so sure. There are wonderfull musicians who have extremely
limited command of their instrument, yet who are able to melt our
hearts, which is what music is all about. Just listen to some of the
old school black blues players. Some of them were completely
illiterate, and played only three chords on their guitars, but man,
the entire Universe is to be found inside those three chords and they
way they played them!
Some other, more sophisticated and schooled musicians, play incredibly
intricate compositions, yet that leaves us cold and unengaged.
> And yet.... maybe there is something more to all of this. The ingredients of
> a good painting for me are not entirely skills based. Just as a person has
> learned to play the piano may play music that is expresionless and dead,
> same follows with paintings. eg. I feel that the pre-raphelite stuff suffers
> from technique literally done to death. Whereas Bonnard may be pulled down
> for dodgy drawing skills, for me his paintings possess much more life...
> very human, emotive and honest. His skills in composition and colour are
> admirable but he has this extra quality...
>
> So is that what modern art is trying to abstract? Literally, the creative
> process alone? The question must be whether the creative process can be an
> abstract thing if we want to quantify it on a scale of beautiful, ie.
> independent of any skill, technique, medium of expression etc. May ask this
> question in alt.philosophy...
I always found it funny how ignorant and unobservant many art critics
are. For example, they always say that 18th and 19th century art had
as its goal to faithfully represent visual reality, while 20th century
abstract art tries to move away from the representational aspect. But,
if you really look at it, that's not true. Many of the old school
paintings are huge stylizations, to the point of barely resembling the
visible reality, while many of the abstract paintings could be
perceived as faithfully rendering portions of reality. Often times, I
can see a faithfull rendition of a piece of reality in an abstract
painting, such as a portion of an object viewed under a strong
magnifying glass, etc. It's just that the framing and composition of
real life objects has changed with abstract painting, so that an
artist may focus of portraying a small portion of an ocean wave, for
example. But, usually that portion is rendered quite fauthfully, and
sometimes breathtakingly masterfully.
Alex
Erik A. Mattila
How utterly backwards. We had home delivery of the Eight Pagers in L.A. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mani Deli
Tang) wrote:
>In article <Xjlgb.1853$ux4...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>,
>mia.sa...@ntlworld.com says...
>
>>I live in hope of getting 'it' one day.
>>
>>Mia
>
>Perhaps you can persuade Mani to let you
>join his club. We've all been hoping - for
>years now - that he might one day "get it."
So tell us what you've got that those who don't agree with you
haven't?
>Some of us gave up hope on that score years
>ago!
>Other fresh faces keep him feeling
>young, unfortunately, and as long as there
>are naivetes out there, Mani will soldier on...
>
Ok orangutang lets see whether your work outdoes a talented
chimpanzee. Where's the work that goes withall that hope?
Oran G. Tang
>How utterly backwards. We had home delivery of the Eight Pagers in L.A. ;-)
Hey, I'll believe anything anyone says about L.A.
no matter how outrageous - just look at yesterday's
events in the "Golden State" where the "Golden Boy"
took the golden cake with promises of reviving the
gold rush days!
Oran G. Tang
says...
>Ok orangutang lets see whether your work outdoes a talented
>chimpanzee. Where's the work that goes withall that hope?
You've seen it many times over the years and
I wouldn't think of boring you with it another
time, nor of giving you the opportunity to
trash it yet again. At least mine is made the
"old fashioned way" - not with the aid of
computer software, as is yours.
Mani Deli
Tang) wrote:
I've never seen it and I think you're full of crap.
mia.sarosi01
"Alex" <ale...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f386924f.03100...@posting.google.com...
> "Mia" <mia.sa...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:<Xjlgb.1853$ux4...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
> > Personally I like this analogy with music: if a musician hasn't learnt
> > the technique and skill of playing an instrument, s/he will never be
able to
> > play music. There just won't be any getting away with it.
>
> I'm not so sure. There are wonderfull musicians who have extremely
> limited command of their instrument, yet who are able to melt our
> hearts, which is what music is all about. Just listen to some of the
> old school black blues players. Some of them were completely
> illiterate, and played only three chords on their guitars, but man,
> the entire Universe is to be found inside those three chords and they
> way they played them!
>
Chords, not notes, therin lies the difference perhaps?.. I'm no expert on
the blues (musically anyway) but I am aware that technically and
artistically this and other music of the period is difficult to master (my
dad plays a lot of it).
Anyway, perhaps its more to do with sensitivities. At various times I
respond differently to the same works of art. Over time I change my
opinions. Some art endures in its appeal to me, and so far its in the work
that is technically strong as well as interesting emotionally. I think I've
produced my best work when I have practiced to the point of 'forgetting'
technique, when it becomes a natural way of expression. The work makes
itself then.
I digress, as usual. The point I was going to make about sensitivities is
that some people are sensitive to notes and see no more potential for them,
others to chords and others to orchestras. Could be this is what 'its'
about?
Abstraction may be its own worst enemy in the end. As it attempts to distill
the essence of art, at some point there is loss of the coherence and the
potential for nothing left to create from, no notes and no way of combining
them.
Turns light out and goes to bed....
Mia
Erik A. Mattila
Absolutely, but the gold rush profits are for handler Key Lay. Arnie
will settle the 9 billion dollar suit for 1 or 2 cents on the dollar,
and the judge will throw the case out of court. Californians will pay
dearly for their transgressions. I'm moving to San Felipe, BC, on the
Gulf, where they have a stable goverment and reliable electricity!
Erik
>
>
>
Chris
Sure you have, it's at http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/ , (Hope you don't mind
Jax).. Maybe it's not your cuppa tea but I like it (particularly the prnts
and drawings). And he seems to know how to handle paint (unlike some TA's,
err, "associate adjuncts" who lean more towards parging...:).
But then again, Mani, I like some of your stuff too. I wonder what the
commonality is? Perhaps my general lack of taste.....
BTW Mani - here's a quote for you - I just picked up a 1st edition of "The
Schock of the New" (not your favourite I suppose) & cruising through it I
came across this quote from George Grosz I thought you'd like:
"My aim is to be understood by everyone. I reject the 'depth' that people
demand nowadays, into which you can never descend without a veritable
diving-bell crammed with cabalistic bullshit and intellectual metaphysics."
[ There's more to the quote for the collectivist minded...., it's on p. 78]
Cheers,
Chris
Mike Stengl
played just right than a myriad of notes, all technically correct,
that provoke no feeling. parrallel: lots of detail, photographic
perfection vs. only the essentials being defined other things are
hinted at or obscured altogether. i've tried to get a response from
this little opinion before and here, now with the streag\ngth of two
vodkas with mango\orange juice i make the point again. one which i
really don't care if others subscribe too or not, cause, hey, it makes
ME smile in the morning when i approach the easel.
Mani Deli
>
>"Mani Deli" <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:hpe8ovo1r0oh7u2j6...@4ax.com...
>> On 8 Oct 2003 06:57:22 -0600, orang-...@dontemailme.com (Oran G.
>> Tang) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <o3u6ovso0rjlqdqlq...@4ax.com>,
>ma...@sympatico.ca
>> >says...
>> >
>> >>Ok orangutang lets see whether your work outdoes a talented
>> >>chimpanzee. Where's the work that goes withall that hope?
>> >
>> >You've seen it many times over the years and
>> >I wouldn't think of boring you with it another
>> >time, nor of giving you the opportunity to
>> >trash it yet again. At least mine is made the
>> >"old fashioned way" - not with the aid of
>> >computer software, as is yours.
>> >
>> I've never seen it and I think you're full of crap.
>
>Sure you have, it's at http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/ , (Hope you don't mind
>Jax).. Maybe it's not your cuppa tea but I like it (particularly the prnts
>and drawings). And he seems to know how to handle paint (unlike some TA's,
>err, "associate adjuncts" who lean more towards parging...:).
His abstracts are nice and have depth. His paintings are amateurish
especially the color and technique. His landscapes seem mostly
dependent on photos. Nothing wrong with that but you have to know how
to use them. He doesn't know perspective and the lines are often off.
I can point out where if you want me to bother. His greenery is
particularly amateurish. He should study Kinkade who knows how to
handle that style and also draws well. His nudes and figures are
outdoor art show at its worst.
He is a good example of talent without knowledge. He should stick to
pattern making which shows off his talent.
>But then again, Mani, I like some of your stuff too. I wonder what the
>commonality is? Perhaps my general lack of taste.....
Let the viewer decide that.
>BTW Mani - here's a quote for you - I just picked up a 1st edition of "The
>Schock of the New" (not your favourite I suppose) & cruising through it I
>came across this quote from George Grosz I thought you'd like:
>
>"My aim is to be understood by everyone. I reject the 'depth' that people
>demand nowadays, into which you can never descend without a veritable
>diving-bell crammed with cabalistic bullshit and intellectual metaphysics."
I always liked Gross who is a good example of modern art done with
craftsmanship talent and ideas. I attended his class at the Art
Students League for a while but he was useless as a teacher.
I have read a lot of The schlock of the new. Hughes is a super
blow-bag specializing in Artspeak. At least he knows his art history
and seems well read. I've written a bit about him here in the past.
Oran G. Tang
where they have a stable goverment and reliable electricity!
>
>Erik
"Stable" as in Hee Haw and "reliable" as in
"you can rely on problems?"
Now, I'm ASSuming (hee haw) that BC refers to
Baja'fornia, and the Gulf is that effluent channel
that shows on most N.A. maps?!
Alex
> Chords, not notes, therin lies the difference perhaps?.. I'm no expert on
> the blues (musically anyway) but I am aware that technically and
> artistically this and other music of the period is difficult to master (my
> dad plays a lot of it).
That's a very good question, Mia. Thanks for bringing it up. I play
guitar since 1976, and although I've worked very hard on mastering
intricate and advanced jazz playing, I still find the blues to be the
most difficult type of music to play. Jazz is much, much easier.
Somehow, blues poses the greatest technical challenges (I'm not even
going into the artistic challenges, plus the fact that I'm a stiff
white guy trying to play this gracious black man's music, which is
insane to begin with). But technically, I cannot imagine anything
harder than blues. I've played Bach, I've played flamenco, I've played
Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt and John Mclaughlin, and these
are all attainable, although lofty goals, but somehow mastering the
mechanics of blues playing on the guitar still eludes me.
> Anyway, perhaps its more to do with sensitivities. At various times I
> respond differently to the same works of art. Over time I change my
> opinions. Some art endures in its appeal to me, and so far its in the work
> that is technically strong as well as interesting emotionally. I think I've
> produced my best work when I have practiced to the point of 'forgetting'
> technique, when it becomes a natural way of expression. The work makes
> itself then.
Nice observations.
> I digress, as usual. The point I was going to make about sensitivities is
> that some people are sensitive to notes and see no more potential for them,
> others to chords and others to orchestras. Could be this is what 'its'
> about?
To me, there are no differences between single notes and chords. A
single note implies to my ears a chord or two, and vice versa. They
are just flip sides of the same coin, in a manner of speaking of
course.
> Abstraction may be its own worst enemy in the end. As it attempts to distill
> the essence of art, at some point there is loss of the coherence and the
> potential for nothing left to create from, no notes and no way of combining
> them.
Which is where conceptual art seems to begin.
mia.sarosi01
> guitar since 1976, and although I've worked very hard on mastering
> intricate and advanced jazz playing, I still find the blues to be the
> most difficult type of music to play. Jazz is much, much easier.
>
> Somehow, blues poses the greatest technical challenges (I'm not even
> going into the artistic challenges, plus the fact that I'm a stiff
> white guy trying to play this gracious black man's music, which is
> insane to begin with). But technically, I cannot imagine anything
> harder than blues. I've played Bach, I've played flamenco, I've played
> Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt and John Mclaughlin, and these
> are all attainable, although lofty goals, but somehow mastering the
> mechanics of blues playing on the guitar still eludes me.
>
This is an impressive musical pedigree! Are you sure about not being able to
play the blues?
> To me, there are no differences between single notes and chords. A
> single note implies to my ears a chord or two, and vice versa. They
> are just flip sides of the same coin, in a manner of speaking of
> course.
>
Good point.
> > Abstraction may be its own worst enemy in the end. As it attempts to
distill
> > the essence of art, at some point there is loss of the coherence and the
> > potential for nothing left to create from, no notes and no way of
combining
> > them.
>
> Which is where conceptual art seems to begin.
Good point too...
A few years ago I had no respect even for the concept of conceptual art.
Then a couple of years ago the Turner Prize was awarded to the work
consisting of a light going on and off in a room. At the time I was doing a
bit of teaching in schools and I made an offhand sarcastic comment about
entering the school's heating system in next years competition (it kept
going on and off). At which point a pupil asked to explain about the
winner....
Forced into this corner I had to talk about the kinds of thing it made you
think about (simultaneously running 'blah blah blah yawn' subtitles through
my mind). After 5 mins the child was asleep but I was suddenly bathed in the
light of the bulb that had just gone on above my head.
Definately worthy of first prize. Wont forget that piece of art. (forgotten
the artist's name - sorry)
Hence once foot out of the traditional swamp and toe into modern...very
cautiously....
Mia
Marc Sabatella
> > > Personally I like this analogy with music: if a musician hasn't
learnt
> > > the technique and skill of playing an instrument, s/he will never
be
> able to
> > > play music. There just won't be any getting away with it.
> >
> > I'm not so sure. There are wonderfull musicians who have extremely
> > limited command of their instrument, yet who are able to melt our
> > hearts, which is what music is all about. Just listen to some of the
> > old school black blues players. Some of them were completely
> > illiterate, and played only three chords on their guitars, but man,
> > the entire Universe is to be found inside those three chords and
they
> > way they played them!
>
> Chords, not notes, therin lies the difference perhaps?.. I'm no expert
on
> the blues (musically anyway) but I am aware that technically and
> artistically this and other music of the period is difficult to master
(my
> dad plays a lot of it).
Well, for what it's worth, I am a musician by profession - art is just a
serious hobby for now - and I would say there are probably more
similiarities than you might think, but it is true that there is a
certain amount time it takes to develop instrumental skills in order to
create music that the average person would find even remotely
acceptable, that does not really apply in art. That is, in one week you
can have all the technique you need in art to start expressing yourself
reasonably, although obviously that's only the beginning of the growth
path (and I can see the flames coming already). But there is only one
instruments on which you can attain basic technical competency as
quickly - your voice. Perhaps for this reason, singers are often held
in contempt by instrumentalists.
I don't think the notes versus chords distinction is relevant here. I
guarantee that, illiterate or not, those old school blues players who
could melt your heart with only three chords had spent a *long* time
playing that guitar and getting to the point where they could play those
three chords so expressively.
Anyhow, I haven't actually been following the discussion, but saw this
post, and thought I might as well weigh in.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Oran G. Tang
mia.sa...@ntlworld.com says...
>Definately worthy of first prize. Wont forget that piece of art. (forgotten
>the artist's name - sorry)
I was living in the UK when the Hayward Gallery first
purchased a pile of common red building bricks
that minimalist Carl Andre sold to them for
thirty-thousands pounds sterling. It
caused a furor at the time, spending all that
money for a pile of bricks at a time when
the UK economy was tanking. And I was at that
time just learning about the "art world" and
it's queerness. Juxtaposed against my "learning
experiences" in the National Gallery, and other
traditional art museum venues, it was difficult
to grasp how "Minimalism" had any place there.
But like you, I've neither forgotten the experience
of viewing that pile of bricks, nor the artist's name,
in spite of my personal "yawning" at most minimalist
works. Conclusion: It's not "what" you do but
"being the first" to do it that matters.
Mani Deli
Tang) wrote:
>In article <9Zjhb.1366$7b5....@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net>,
>mia.sa...@ntlworld.com says...
>
>>Definately worthy of first prize. Wont forget that piece of art. (forgotten
>>the artist's name - sorry)
>
>I was living in the UK when the Hayward Gallery first
>purchased a pile of common red building bricks
>that minimalist Carl Andre sold to them for
>thirty-thousands pounds sterling. It
>caused a furor at the time, spending all that
>money for a pile of bricks at a time when
>the UK economy was tanking.
Saying they spent that money and doing it is different. I doubt that
the money changed hands. If a sucker came around and actually paid for
it they'd split the profit. It costs nothing to say 30,000. Most art
dealers are full of crap and selling bullshit art is an art which is
far more interesting than the so called art.
> And I was at that
>time just learning about the "art world" and
>it's queerness. Juxtaposed against my "learning
>experiences" in the National Gallery, and other
>traditional art museum venues, it was difficult
>to grasp how "Minimalism" had any place there.
>But like you, I've neither forgotten the experience
>of viewing that pile of bricks, nor the artist's name,
>in spite of my personal "yawning" at most minimalist
>works. Conclusion: It's not "what" you do but
>"being the first" to do it that matters.
Being first doesn't matter. There's nothing new about calling a pile
of crap art. The sales job is what counts. The salesman's pitch is the
real art.
Erik A. Mattila
> In article <3F84BE35...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
>
> where they have a stable goverment and reliable electricity!
>
>>Erik
>
>
> "Stable" as in Hee Haw and "reliable" as in
> "you can rely on problems?"
Well, under "stable government," when was the last time a president
gained power by supreme court judicial activism.
And as for reliable power, San Felipe didn't have any brown outs in
recent memory. Hey, they even gots internet:
>
> Now, I'm ASSuming (hee haw) that BC refers to
> Baja'fornia, and the Gulf is that effluent channel
> that shows on most N.A. maps?!
Yes, but there's a big geological hunk of the penninsula that made it
all the way up to the other "BC."
http://www.geology.yale.edu/~brandon/Cowan_etal97/
As for your effluent chanel, not true. The Colorado water was cut off
in 1934, which has caused the massive fishery die-off in the Gulf of
California, largely due to water chemistry and the lack of the nutrients
that washed down the Colorado. But the Gulf is not polluted - it is very
clean. The pollutants from Mexicali actually run north, via the New
River and Alamo River and dump into the Salton Sea. Mexicali is
remediating that with massive construction projects right now. The
other half of the pollution that enters the Salton Sea is from the farms
around here, which is a long way off from remediation. There are a few
experimental wetland constructions projects, and the outlook looks
promising. But the big problem is salts leaching from agricultural
production, insofar as the health of the Salton Sea is concerned.
Desalination is a big problem, and has nothing to do with the Mexican
side of the water quality issues.
Erik
>
>
Oran G. Tang
You're not serious about moving to
San Felipe, are you? OTOH, I know quite
a few who find Mexico to be a great
place to retire. And OTOH, some of the
resort communities that have been developed
to cater to the tourist trade have ruined
what were once only laid back native
villages. And since NAFTA, the "Mexican
bargain" has become a myth. Like I've
always said of San Francisco, it's a great
place to visit but I'd not want to live there!
Oran G. Tang
>And as for reliable power, San Felipe didn't have any brown outs in
>recent memory. Hey, they even gots internet:
>
>http://www.sanfelipe.com
Hmmmm... Maybe they once did, but when I tried
it just now it switched to this URL instead:
http://www.swatup.com/swat/homepage.htm
Just goes to show, things work much differently
"down there" than they do "up here" - when they
work at all! Mañana mania, and all that...
Erik A. Mattila
I doubt if San Felipe is on my horizon - but not because I wouldn't want
to live there. Actually, I would prefer a city with less gringo
retirees than S.F. - hard to find on the coast these days. But my
preference is such as you say...but you have to realize that the
"bargain" was spoiled by NAFTA, yes, but is pretty much localized in
areas where retirees have landed. Simple inflation. But Mexico is like
that...very strange...there are conduits throughout the country for
tourism, and it has a unique economy (far out of reach to rank and file
Mexicans). It's pretty easy to stay out of that, but I think a lot of
gringos don't like Mexicans that much - even fear Mexicans. Thus you
have the "clusters" such as around San Felipe.
But I could never get Cresencia to move that far away from her three
baby boyz - 25, 28, and 30. So it's just a pipe dream. When we can
make our escape from the Colorado Desert (which may be soon), we'll
probably land back up in the Sacramento area. We lived in Winters
before we came down here. That's a really beautiful community, Lots of
fruit and walnut orchards, good climate, and easy access to the Bay Area
and Sacramento. We still have most of our household in storage in
Winters. I'll be glad to unpack my library after this six year
"wandering in the desert" episode.
Erik
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Erik A. Mattila
http://sanfelipe.com.mx/
Would you believe in all the 6 years we've been here we haven't gone
down there? It's only a two hour drive, but we haven't been able to go
anywhere because of caring for the old folks.
Except we do go to "Bubbas" BBQ over in Yuma once or twice a year or so.
Great restaurant. Yuma's finest.
Erik
>
Oran G. Tang
>Sorry, I forgot the "mx" suffix. It's
>http://sanfelipe.com.mx/
Got it this time. The aerial photos are enough
to dispell any desire on my part to visit there.
Too stark for this "desert rat." Too much like the
Chihuahuan desert I live in now.
>Would you believe in all the 6 years we've been here we haven't gone
>down there?
Here's a curious statement from the internet
site:
"Hopefully the links above and the rest of
this site will pique your interest, **or allay
any fears you might have,** about visiting this
exciting community."
Makes me instantly wonder why I should have
anything to fear?! OTOH, reading an article
just yesterday about the drug gang wars in
Nuevo Laredo answers that, I guess.
Mike Stengl
> Oran G. Tang wrote:
> > In article <3F87638...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
> >
> >
> >>And as for reliable power, San Felipe didn't have any brown outs in
> >>recent memory. Hey, they even gots internet:
> >>
> >>http://www.sanfelipe.com
> >
> >
> > Hmmmm... Maybe they once did, but when I tried
> > it just now it switched to this URL instead:
> >
> > http://www.swatup.com/swat/homepage.htm
> >
too sporty/touristy to me (but my arm could be twisted to check it
out), am currently wanting to visit guadalajara: a dozen universities,
large art community (supplies), and it's on a mountain whereby the
weather is a mild 80'sish year round. if bush takes another four years
i'll write you'se all letters...(pass that pipe dream over here...)
Erik A. Mattila
Yep - but it's worse by reputation than by fact. We have a tremendous
"Snowbird" population down here every winter (the shoud be arriving
shortly) and most of these folks shop for their prescriptions in Mexico,
at about a tenth the cost states-side. There's a lot of insecurity
about traveling in Mexico. So any negative incident that happens gets
amplified and it's thought of as a "rule" rather than an "exception."
People with motor homes caravan to San Felipe for protection. Probably
a good thing to do, since traveling under stress (fictional or not) is
really difficult, especially for old folks. It's just funny that the
statistics show clearly that they are in greater danger back home in
Detroit, LA, or Ann Arbor.
Erik
>
>
>
Erik A. Mattila
Never been to Guadalajara, but I heard the song. Cuernavaca has a good
reputation too. But geeze, Mike...from Blue Lake to a booming
metropolis like Guadalajara??? You'd be in culture shock for the first
year or so.
Erik
Mike Stengl
did a little surfing at "alt.mexico" and amidst the usual bickering
was a lot of claims about how corrupt the system is
(police/army/gangs/drugs) and how hard it was to "work" there...
Oran G. Tang
>Never been to Guadalajara, but I heard the song. Cuernavaca has a good
>reputation too.
I've been to many places in Mexico over
the years, but never Oaxaca, and I've always
heard that it is a premier retirement destination
as well as a great artist community. Not sure
if that still applies in today's Mexican
economy or not. It does appear to be in a strikingly
gorgeous setting.
http://oaxaca-travel.com/guide/index.php?lang=us
Erik A. Mattila
> did a little surfing at "alt.mexico" and amidst the usual bickering
> was a lot of claims about how corrupt the system is
> (police/army/gangs/drugs) and how hard it was to "work" there...
Heehehehe...yes, "la mordida" is alive and well in Mx. It's ingrained
into the culture, I think. A lot of Yanks just aren't familiar with the
"system," or actually believe it when they read that it's against the
law. It's subtle...you have to neatly fold a fiver into a 1" square,
and hold it under the paper's you're handing the official, so he can
covertly take the paper and open a desk drawer and drop the bill in
there inconspicioulsy as possible. Funny, you have to aid him/her in
committing a crime. But it's cheap. A friendly, happy bureaucrat in Mx
is worth much, much more than five dollars. And in the end, the whole
thing is more or less like a tip to a bellhop or waiter.
BTW, the people who really suffer from Mexican corruption are
farmworkers up here who travel down to visit family. The bureaucrats
are merciless with them. I had a neighbor when I lived up north who
visited his family in Guanajuato for the first time in 5 years of
working in the states, and he told me it cost him about 600 bucks to get
to Guanajuato and back. A damm shame.
Erik
Oran G. Tang
eatn...@humboldt1.com says...
>did a little surfing at "alt.mexico" and amidst the usual bickering
>was a lot of claims about how corrupt the system is
>(police/army/gangs/drugs) and how hard it was to "work" there...
All too true. Mexico has long been a problematic
society for those who are accustomed to more
law and "order." They have their own "order."
But the stories one hears
about Norte Americanos being assaulted robbed
and worse are hard to pin down. I have many
friends who travel regularly in Mexico, as
I have myself, and I know of none who have
ever had a serious encounter. I have women
friends who have driven around Mexico without
any male escort and never had a problem. I have a
couple of friends who have even camped along
the roadsides in Mexico, and they recount how
they have been approached by local "diputados del sheriff"
who warned them of the dangers of being robbed.
But they chose to camp along the way regardless,
and never had a problem. I don't know about what
might happen today since my friends did this
in their younger days and we're all old codgers now.
But we old codgers are the ones who are most
likely to travel extensively in Mexico since it
is still cheaper to do so there than many other
places in the world.
Erik A. Mattila
Here's a funny story if you'll indulge me a bit. In the early 60s my
friend Juan and I would try to make it to Puerto Peñasco every year for
fishing and skin diving. It was wonderful in those days, still a small
town where everyone knew each other and knew everybody's business too.
So, I think it was 1963, Juan worked in a Men's clothing store, and one
of the partners told him that he could take the brand new Ford Falcon
company car to Mx., if we agreed to take his son, Joey, along with us.
He had divorced some years back, and Joey was living with Mom, and Sonny
was concerned that he would become a moma's boy type a thing. So we
agreed. It was a nice trip, but it turned out that Joey was deathly
afraid of Mexicans - I mean to the point that he trembled. Like in
Peñasco a lot of folks would walk down the railroad tracks to get to the
beach for an evening swim - mostly families etc. So we were walking on
the tracks to town one evening, and a family was walking towards us on
their way to the beach. Joey grew terrified, and started bolting around
looking for some place to hide. Of course Juan and I were teasing him,
telling him to relax, there was no problem etc.
So on the way back to LA we drove to Sonoita, and then took that road
that runs just south of the AZ border that leads to San Luis Rio
Colorado. About halfway is a little truckstop (restaurant/motel and a
few houses) called Los Vidrios (Broken Glass). It was late, and we
stopped for coffee, and inquired about a room. It was too expensive, so
we asked if it would be ok to sleep out in the clear area where the
trucks pulled over. "Sequro" - that was OK.
There weren't any trucks there when we rolled out our bags on the
ground. But Joey decided to sleep in the car. Here's the deal.
Truckers used Los Vidrios to stop at night so they could hit San Luis or
Mexicali during daylight when they could off-load their cargos. So
after we slept there for an hour or so, the trucks slowly began pulling
in. As more stopped, the drivers would visit and bullshit, drink a
little, and even had a guitar and some singing. It woke me up a couple
of times (when someone told a great joke?) but I just rolled over and
went back to sleep.
We got up at first light, and the truckers were sleeping all over the
place. One guy was laying on his back on an old flat wooden trailer, at
an angle, with a blanket over his body and head. He pulled the blanket
off his face and said "Buenos Dias" and went back to sleep. But when I
looked over to our car, there was Joey, sitting upright with a look of
absolute terror on his face. We found out later that what had happened
was that when the truckers saw Joey sitting in terror in the locked-up
Ford, and they thought that was pretty funny. So they then began
sneaking up on the Ford on all fours, and jumping up with their faces to
the windows, making all sorts of funny faces, watching Joey yelp and
bolt. That was the "jokes" they were laughing at that made me wake up
from time to time. Poor kid (about 17) was terrified.
Erik
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mike Stengl
>
> Heehehehe...yes, "la mordida" is alive and well in Mx. It's ingrained
> into the culture, I think. A lot of Yanks just aren't familiar with the
> "system," or actually believe it when they read that it's against the
> law. It's subtle...you have to neatly fold a fiver into a 1" square,
> and hold it under the paper's you're handing the official, so he can
> covertly take the paper and open a desk drawer and drop the bill in
> there inconspicioulsy as possible. Funny, you have to aid him/her in
> committing a crime. But it's cheap. A friendly, happy bureaucrat in Mx
> is worth much, much more than five dollars. And in the end, the whole
> thing is more or less like a tip to a bellhop or waiter.
how does one know when or how much is appropriate? (i realize you
suggested an amount, but transactions differ i suppose), also, on my
side, my girlfriend is a native speaker.
Erik A. Mattila
Well, you know, it's like tipping. You could use a dollar, I guess, and
the official wouldn't know until you were long gone. But it's a good
question - I don't know.
I've got a friend in Southern Humboldt who went on a hotel spree once in
S.F. and said he just loaded up on 5 dollar bills and passed them out to
the hotel staff liberally. He said he thought he was King Faruk, the
way everyone bent over backwards for him. So it cost him a hundred
dollars to feel important. He got his official Warhol 10 minutes of
fame out of the deal. Back in Salmon Creek, he was just another lowly
Pot Baron.
Great that you have a speaker handy. That makes it nice. Another "art
form" is bargaining. It's good to not insult the vendor by saying "100
pesos, it's not worth that!" Say something like "Gee, that's a good
price. Unfortunately out of my range. I could only pay 50 pesos for this."
Sounds like your serious about this. But Bush can't win in '04 (can he?).
Erik
Oran G. Tang
>how does one know when or how much is appropriate?
Back in my traveling days I always made sure
to carry plenty of USA dollar bills. I never
tipped in local currency, especially in 3rd
world countries. The "almighty dollar" is a
very apt expression in most of the world.
As for going into Mexico, I haven't in nearly
ten years. But when driving it is always wise
to play the "mordida game." The reason being
that the small bribe you hand the person issuing
your travel visa somehow finds its way down
the line. If you don't pay, they "play you." You end
up being delayed at every milepost inspection
stop while your luggage is re-searched. If you
"played the game" correctly, you're waved on
through, often with a smile.
One time when in Nigeria, and getting ready to
leave on a flight out, I ran out of dollar bills
before I got to the last baggage handler. You
see, they also know how to "play the game" and
your baggage is handled several times before its
loaded on the plane. Failure to tip each handler
may see your bags left behind. Anyhow, the last
handler was charged with loading my bags on the
plane and when I didn't tip, and was asked for
a tip, and replied I'd already been cleaned out, the
handler suggested that I return to the terminal
and cash a traveler's check. Which I refused to
do since I'd have missed the flight. Lucky for
me the bags made it on anyway.
Mike Stengl
when i vactioned down there, PV/Yelapa, I couldn't help looking around
and trying to figure out how I could stay. There was a contingent of
expatriots there (many from humboldt/mendecino, go figure) that made
me think even more. kinda expensive in that area but i heard "inland"
was much cheaper, so I thought maybe in an outlying area NEAR a city.
The one you mentioned looked like it might be a little more laid back
than Guadalajara. I'm just looking for my options and my Peruvian
girlfriend likes the latin countries sense of family/community.
But Bush can't win in '04
i don't overestimate bush but (after california's election) i can't
underestimate the stupidity of the american public. media control and
appathy are a bad combo. (and i know the voter return was supposedly
huge, even more frightening)
(can he?).
>
> Erik
Erik A. Mattila
> when i vactioned down there, PV/Yelapa, I couldn't help looking around
> and trying to figure out how I could stay. There was a contingent of
> expatriots there (many from humboldt/mendecino, go figure) that made
> me think even more. kinda expensive in that area but i heard "inland"
> was much cheaper, so I thought maybe in an outlying area NEAR a city.
> The one you mentioned looked like it might be a little more laid back
> than Guadalajara. I'm just looking for my options and my Peruvian
> girlfriend likes the latin countries sense of family/community.
You mean Cuernavaca? I understand it's a little pricey and has a fairly
large expatriot community - but mostly Europeans. It's just such a
beautiful. If you want to take a look, rent that great John Houston
film "Under the Volcano." Most of it was filmed in Cuernavaca. Its
principle feature is a very perfect year round climate.
>
> But Bush can't win in '04
>
> i don't overestimate bush but (after california's election) i can't
> underestimate the stupidity of the american public. media control and
> appathy are a bad combo. (and i know the voter return was supposedly
> huge, even more frightening)
I saw Tim Robbins on Charlie Rose last night. I wish he'd consider
running. He even made Charles act like a wingnut a bit. Naw, on second
thought, I like his films too much to give him up to politics. Dang,
that's the problem...all the liberal moviestars are good actors.
Babs Boone
>You mean Cuernavaca? I understand it's a little pricey and has a fairly
>large expatriot community - but mostly Europeans.
San Miguel de Allende has long been reknowned for
both its priceyness and its reputation for harboring
artistic types. And getting there is half the fun
since there is no local airport!
>I like his films too much to give him up to politics. Dang,
>that's the problem...all the liberal moviestars are good actors.
Hmmm. Better actors than their polar opposites?
I can't think of anything more arresting than a
new thread arguing about the politics of
movie stars...groan!?&#