Should I gesso watercolor board?
Kathy Kebarle
painting acrylic paints on it, to get an achival-quality painting?
In answer to this question, a salesman I asked at an art supply store
said first that acrylic cadmium colors may over time damage the
watercolor board, but then he thought about it and said that acrylics
have the same pigments that are in the watercolor paints that artists
use on watercolor board, and they don't gesso their canvasses first, so
I'm not sure what's the right thing to do.
What if I just avoid using cadmium colors in my paintings? Would that
allow me to paint acrylics on watercolor board without first gessoing
the board, and still have an archival painting?
Thank you.
Tony Wypkema
Marilyn
No need to gesso watercolour paper. It has a coating on it to buffer it,
most brands do anyway. You could avoid cadmium pigments if you are
worried. (Also I have been told not to mix brands of acrylic paints since
they might react to each other.) As long as your paper is acid free,
using good paint, and framing with acid free board, front & back
you will have an archival painting. Look up Helen Frankenthaler,
she pours acrylic paint onto canvas & paper without priming.
Marilyn
jax...@my-dejanews.com
Kathy Kebarle <thepa...@designwrite.nu> wrote:
> Is it necessary to gesso (100 per cent rag) watercolor board before
> painting acrylic paints on it, to get an achival-quality painting?
When talking in terms of what to do and not to do with acrylics,
think of it this way. Acrylic gesso is exactly the same vehicle
as that used in the tube colors, in decoupage glues, and in commercial
house paints. The gesso differs only in the 'filler' and 'pigment'
used. Tube or jar color pigments are 'encapsulated' or 'coated'
with the vehicle and very little of the pigment would probably
actually interact with the underlying support, whether it be paper
or something else. So the obvious answer is a question -- WHY GESSO?
There is no 'obvious' reason to gesso canvas either if you are
going to be overpainting with acrylics. Only if you need a pure
white surface and the toothiness that the gesso offers. I often
begin with a toned canvas or even a solid black one and I use the
vehicle (acrylic gloss gel) and tint it with powder pigments or
with tube colors as a prime coat. NO GESSO. Abby.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
yuki...@my-dejanews.com
Kathy Kebarle <thepa...@designwrite.nu> wrote:
> Is it necessary to gesso (100 per cent rag) watercolor board before
> painting acrylic paints on it, to get an achival-quality painting?
>
> said first that acrylic cadmium colors may over time damage the
> watercolor board, but then he thought about it and said that acrylics
> have the same pigments that are in the watercolor paints that artists
> use on watercolor board, and they don't gesso their canvasses first, so
> I'm not sure what's the right thing to do.
>
> What if I just avoid using cadmium colors in my paintings? Would that
> allow me to paint acrylics on watercolor board without first gessoing
> the board, and still have an archival painting?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Tony Wypkema
>
watercolor board except to cover an existing painting I don't want. You can
,however, apply gesso to almost any other material and get good results.
You can texture the wet gesso to give the type of surface you want!
hope this is of some help..
--
Believe those who search for the truth,distrust those who say they found
it basho
Tony Wypkema
>
> I work in a major art supply store and get questions like this all the time. I
> tell my artists, if in doubt, take any any steps to cover any doubts. And in
> your case, where you have archival questions, I say to go for the gesso, front
> and back. Why? Watercolor paper expands and contracts constantly due to the
> changing humidity in it's environment. This may cause stress on the painting
> over time. The gesso would isolate the paper and couldn't hurt. Remember, I
> only say this because your inquiry relates to longevity of the work.
> As far as cadmium colors, I can't see what adverse effects it would have on
> acid free w.c. paper. You might look it up in The Artist's Handbook, but that
> is a new one to me.
>
> Bonnie
Thank you, Bonnie, for your answer. Thanks also to Marilyn, Jaxart and
Yuki6093, all of whom disagreed with you, by saying it's not necessary
to gesso the watercolor board.
I've decided not to gesso the board, because it looks like most artists
usually don't, and it's extra work, and the paint doesn't behave as
niclely with the gesso barrier in between the paint and the board.
> Have fun and just do it!
> Don't worry
Since I'm trying to do professional work, I can't afford to just "have
fun and do it" and not worry. When I take that attitude, I usually get
into trouble.
For example, I excessively airbrushed a painting on illustration board.
I sold the painting through a gallery. A couple of years later, someone
from the gallery called. The owner of the painting had brought the
painting in to the gallery, because the surface was in places covered
with tiny (and some not so tiny) cracks from the excessive moisture I
had airbrushed onto the board.
I had to go to the gallery to pick up the painting, painstakingly fix it
back at the studio and take it back to the gallery, all the while
worrying if I'd be able to fix the damn thing at all..
To do professional work that I can be proud of and that doesn't come
back to haunt me later, I have to worry about everything.
Also, I'm new to this aspect of the art business.
And the art business (like most others) is complicated, multi-faceted
and filled with pitfalls.
Once I figure out the systems that work for me, then I will have more
fun and won't have to worry so much, but right now I feel like I'm
running through an obstacle course and have a lot to learn about being a
professional artist and a long way to go before I can take it easier.
Tony Wypkema
Marilyn
>
> I work in a major art supply store and get questions like this all the time. I
> tell my artists, if in doubt, take any any steps to cover any doubts. And in
> your case, where you have archival questions, I say to go for the gesso, front
> and back. Why? Watercolor paper expands and contracts constantly due to the
> changing humidity in it's environment. This may cause stress on the painting
> over time. The gesso would isolate the paper and couldn't hurt. Remember, I
> only say this because your inquiry relates to longevity of the work.
> As far as cadmium colors, I can't see what adverse effects it would have on
> acid free w.c. paper. You might look it up in The Artist's Handbook, but that
> is a new one to me.
>
> Don't worry
>
Watercolour paper also absorbs. I think if Helen Frankenthaler
pours paint onto unprimed canvas and ungessoed paper, that's
good enough for me.
M.
Degas5
Degas5
that you most definitely should prime the paper, at least on the back side.
This won't effect the working properties of your painting surface. Have you
ever tried Winsor Newton Clear Acrylic Gesso? I tried it a couple of weeks
ago, tinted it with with some acrylic paint and loved it. It dries differently
than any gesso I've ever used and think it work well on paper.
Tony, I paint mostly in oils but work with W.C. and acrylics to loosen up.
When I use my acrylics on canvas board, which is gessoed by the manufacture, I
haven't been adding additional coats. Over time I'm noticing that the surface
of these paintings are changing even though they are in a controlled temp. room
with my other canvas works. They are varnished and I would have to assume that
any adverse reaction is coming from behind the board. This doesn't really
bother me, since any work I do on board is usually quick sketch work, but I
would be very annoyed with myself if it was a piece that I had intended to put
up for sale That is why I say, err on the side of caution and, at least, gesso
the back side of the paper.
Bonnie
Degas5
with her technique, but do know that pouring is more often used by
watercolorists than acrylic artists. like Roland Roycroft. In that case, all
of the paint layers are absorbed, but for the sedimentary or granulating
colors. However, the amount of paint would not be disturbed by any kind of
shift in support. I would assume that if the artist is using pouring technique
in acrylic there is some dimension to the paint surface and it is this paint
that disturbs me.
Whenever we try something new, we never know how it's going to turn out. Even
Frankenthaler doesn't know.
Bonnie
A. B. Sieze
>To do professional work that I can be proud of and that doesn't come
>back to haunt me later, I have to worry about everything.
Okay. With that explanation of intent, then let me ask the question:
Why are you using watercolor BOARD? It is similar to illustration
board, imo, and not something that should be thought of as having
endurance like good quality watercolor paper. If you must have a
rigid mounting (backing) and are trying to produce the most professional
product you can, then use watercolor paper and mount it on your
own choice of backing using archival mounting methods. You need
not worry about acrylic paints decaying the paper any more than
you'd worry about watercolors doing so. ONE CAVEAT -- painting on
watercolor board or watercolor paper IMPLIES that you are painting
in a watercolor mode -- THINLY. If you are painting in the acrylic
or impasto mode -- thickly -- then I question the use of watercolor
ground to begin with. All the best, Abby Sieze.
Bob C
I frequently do oil painting on cold-press 140lb watercolor paper which
I first cover with a layer of acrylic gesso (sometimes I mount it on
acid-free foam core using an acrylic medium as the adhesive). It's the
texture of the paper which I like working with. The gesso is necessary
to protect the paper from the oils, but I would probably use it even
with acrylics. I'm not using watercolor techniques (although I
frequently allow the thin washes of my underpainting to show through)
and the gesso helps tone down those particular characteristics of the
paper which I'm not interested in. If anyone can suggest a similar
texture on a support better suited to oils, I'd love to hear it.
- Bob C.
Marilyn
Have you tried Daniel Smith's ART BOARD? It is made from boards
left over from computer manufacture. No need to size it, it has a good
tooth. The main draw back is that it will break, though not if handled
carefully.
Marilyn
Tony Wypkema
>
> I didn't realize you were a professional artist. In that case I would restate
> that you most definitely should prime the paper, at least on the back side.
> This won't effect the working properties of your painting surface.
Tony Wypkema:
This isn't necessary, I assume, if I'm going to adhere the acid-free
watercolor paper with an acid-free adherent like Poly Vinly Acetate glue
to an acid-free mount, such as museum board. Am I correct?
> Have you
> ever tried Winsor Newton Clear Acrylic Gesso?
Tony Wypkema:
No. I've tried Speedball and Golden acrylic gessos, though.
> I tried it a couple of weeks
> ago, tinted it with with some acrylic paint and loved it. It dries differently
> than any gesso I've ever used and think it work well on paper.
> Tony, I paint mostly in oils but work with W.C. and acrylics to loosen up.
> When I use my acrylics on canvas board, which is gessoed by the manufacture, I
> haven't been adding additional coats. Over time I'm noticing that the surface
> of these paintings are changing even though they are in a controlled temp. room
> with my other canvas works. They are varnished and I would have to assume that
> any adverse reaction is coming from behind the board.
Tony:
It's interesting that you have noticed a change in the appearance. I
wonder how many years it was before you noticed the changes?
Bonnie:
Tony Wypkema
> >
> > Why are you using watercolor BOARD? It is similar to illustration
> > board, imo, and not something that should be thought of as having
> > endurance like good quality watercolor paper. If you must have a
> > rigid mounting (backing) and are trying to produce the most professional
> > product you can, then use watercolor paper and mount it on your
> > own choice of backing using archival mounting methods. You need
> > not worry about acrylic paints decaying the paper any more than
> > you'd worry about watercolors doing so.
Tony Wypkema:
Okay. I took your advice. I returned the watercolor board to the art
supply store. Then I went to another store and bought a sheet of
300-pound Arches watercolor paper. Beautiful stuff! (Even though it's
supposed to be a hefty 300 pounds, it feels like it weighs only a few
ounces. Good thing; I would have had a hard time lugging the sheet back
to the studio if it weighed 300 pounds!)
Is 400-pound paper okay? I was tempted to buy that, but no one here
recommended it, and it's so stiff I thought it would be too hard to
adhere to the museum board I'm thinking of using as a backing.
I can't remember if the labels said the paper is cold-or hot-pressed.
Does it matter? (The paper didn't feel cold or hot; it felt like about
room temperature.)
Marilyn
Tony,
cold pressed has texture
hot pressed is as smooth as silk
400 lb is okay if you can afford it.
Foam core is said to be archival when used behind paintings in a frame
but I don't trust the foam. There is also
an archival corrugated board, like cardboard, only white available
at Daniel Smith if Opus doesn't carry it & you don't mind the exchange
on the money.
M.
Degas5
but dries clear, much like acrylic medium, so that if you should want to tint
it., the color remains truer and not weakened by the white.
The canvas board that showed changes was hanging for about seven years before
I noticed it. I paint relatively thinly, so the texture of the support is
obvious the imperfections look like small solid blisters. They're not that
awful, but they're there.
Bonnie
Tony Wypkema
on:
> Have you tried Daniel Smith's ART BOARD? It is made from boards
> left over from computer manufacture. No need to size it, it has a good
> tooth. The main draw back is that it will break, though not if handled
> carefully.
>
Does it allow smooth blending of colors, the way watercolor paper does?
I assume that it is acid-free?
Is is flimsy (and therefore requires mounting)?
Thanks.
Tony
Marilyn
>
> Marilyn wrote re: acrylic painting surfaces to do watercolor techniques
> on:
>
> > Have you tried Daniel Smith's ART BOARD? It is made from boards
> > left over from computer manufacture. No need to size it, it has a good
> > tooth. The main draw back is that it will break, though not if handled
> > carefully.
> >
> Does it allow smooth blending of colors, the way watercolor paper does?
It is a thin crisp board (not paper), with some texture. Blending with oil pastels
and turpentine washes looks good. It needs no preparation, because the oil
will not damage it.
>
> I assume that it is acid-free?
Yes, I believe so. Check with Daniel Smith Art Materials on the exact composition.
>
> Is is flimsy (and therefore requires mounting)?
It could be attached to a board for strength & to avoid breakage, just attached not
completely mounted. The main advantage is being able to use oils on it immediately
with not preparation. Also it is good recycling of computer waste.
M.
jax...@my-dejanews.com
bob...@erols.com wrote:
> I frequently do oil painting on cold-press 140lb watercolor paper which
> I first cover with a layer of acrylic gesso (sometimes I mount it on
> acid-free foam core using an acrylic medium as the adhesive). It's the
> texture of the paper which I like working with. The gesso is necessary
> to protect the paper from the oils, but I would probably use it even
> with acrylics. I'm not using watercolor techniques (although I
> frequently allow the thin washes of my underpainting to show through)
> and the gesso helps tone down those particular characteristics of the
> paper which I'm not interested in. If anyone can suggest a similar
> texture on a support better suited to oils, I'd love to hear it.
>
> - Bob C.
What kind of acrylic gesso are you using? I've got students who
are buying gesso in Walmart and such places that is not the best
stuff for providing good tooth. I personally use UTRECHT's gesso
which I buy by the gallon. It has pretty good tooth but can be
enhanced further by the addition of abrasive fillers. Silicon
powders and and other such inert fillers work very well. You can
even try the old standby used by commercial house painters. It
is some sort of carbonate that looks like plaster but doesn't have
the cementing properties of plaster. It's referred to as 'whiting.'
Cheers, Abby.
Tony Wypkema
>
ONE CAVEAT -- painting on
> watercolor board or watercolor paper IMPLIES that you are painting
> in a watercolor mode -- THINLY. If you are painting in the acrylic
> or impasto mode -- thickly -- then I question the use of watercolor
> ground to begin with. All the best, Abby Sieze.
Yes; the whole idea is to get those beautiful watercolor effects that I
can't get on hardboard, masonite or even streched canvas.
Thanks for your help, Abby.
Tony
jax...@my-dejanews.com
Tony Wypkema <thepa...@designwrite.nu> wrote:
> Okay. I took your advice.
That wasn't 'my' advice nor did I recommend using 300 lb paper.
You're confusing all the different replies you're receiving.
But I did suggest NOT using watercolor board. The rest of
your post, wherein you jest over common terms, indicates to me
that it is pointless at this point pointing you in any particular
direction. You obviously are a beginner and have a LOT to learn
and therefore just do what feels good to you and forget all the
advice. Cheers and good luck with your art, Abby.
>I returned the watercolor board to the art
> supply store. Then I went to another store and bought a sheet of
> 300-pound Arches watercolor paper. Beautiful stuff! (Even though it's
> supposed to be a hefty 300 pounds, it feels like it weighs only a few
> ounces. Good thing; I would have had a hard time lugging the sheet back
> to the studio if it weighed 300 pounds!)
>
> Is 400-pound paper okay? I was tempted to buy that, but no one here
> recommended it, and it's so stiff I thought it would be too hard to
> adhere to the museum board I'm thinking of using as a backing.
>
> I can't remember if the labels said the paper is cold-or hot-pressed.
> Does it matter? (The paper didn't feel cold or hot; it felt like about
> room temperature.)
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Bob C
>
> In article <366079...@erols.com>,
> bob...@erols.com wrote:
>
> > I frequently do oil painting on cold-press 140lb watercolor paper which
> > I first cover with a layer of acrylic gesso (sometimes I mount it on
> > acid-free foam core using an acrylic medium as the adhesive). It's the
> > texture of the paper which I like working with. The gesso is necessary
> > to protect the paper from the oils, but I would probably use it even
> > with acrylics. I'm not using watercolor techniques (although I
> > frequently allow the thin washes of my underpainting to show through)
> > and the gesso helps tone down those particular characteristics of the
> > paper which I'm not interested in. If anyone can suggest a similar
> > texture on a support better suited to oils, I'd love to hear it.
> >
> > - Bob C.
>
> What kind of acrylic gesso are you using? I've got students who
> are buying gesso in Walmart and such places that is not the best
> stuff for providing good tooth. I personally use UTRECHT's gesso
> which I buy by the gallon. It has pretty good tooth but can be
> enhanced further by the addition of abrasive fillers.
I almost always use UTRECHT gesso, although I've got some Liquitex
sitting around which is more expensive but also thicker, so I use that
on rare occasions when I want a pronounced texture in the gesso
surface. I've not yet experimented with the addition of abrasive
fillers, but I can see where that would be particularly useful when
working on panels and not wanting an absolutely slick surface.
- Bob C.
Tony Wypkema
>
> > Okay. I took your advice.
>
> That wasn't 'my' advice nor did I recommend using 300 lb paper. But I did suggest NOT using watercolor board.
What I meant by taking your advice was that I shoud use watercolor paper
instead of watercolor board, and I am taking that advice.
> You're confusing all the different replies you're receiving.
No. I read the letters of advice sevreral times and even downloaded some
of them onto my computer for reference. Therefore I remembered that you
wrote that I didn't need for such heavy paper (and now that I've thought
of glueing the watercolor paper to stiff hardboard, I agree). Probably
200-pound paper would be thick enough, and I think that paper would
still be heavy enough that I wouldn't have to size it.
> The rest of
> your post, wherein you jest over common terms, indicates to me
> that it is pointless at this point pointing you in any particular
> direction. You obviously are a beginner and have a LOT to learn
> and therefore just do what feels good to you and forget all the
> advice. Cheers and good luck with your art, Abby.
>
The fact that I am a beginner at using watercolour paper, and using
watercolour paper to paint on with acrylics doesn't mean that I can't
benefit from advice. ( I HAVE benefited greatly from the advice given by
various people here, and I thank everyone who contributed, including
you.)
I didn't know that my jokes would offend anyone. I apologize if they
did, and I will try to refrain from joking again on this newsgroup. The
fact that I made a couple of jokes doesn't mean that I'm not serious
about learning. I do find the term 'pounds' an odd way to refer to
lightweight paper, though, so I was poking fun at the terminology.
I've noticed on other newsgroups that some people joke all the time. It
doesn't mean that they aren't serious about learning. Some people like
the lightheartedness of joking at the same time as they share
information, ask questions and learn (although I admit that my jokes
would only appeal to those who like lame humour.)
I'm certainly familiar with paper weights being referred to as poundage,
and the terms hot- and cold-press, and knew that it refers to the way
the paper is pressed at the paper mill, but had forgotten what the terms
meant in terms of paper texture, and didn't know if artists recommend
one or the other for painting on with acrylic washes.
> >I returned the watercolor board to the art
> > supply store. Then I went to another store and bought a sheet of
> > 300-pound Arches watercolor paper. Beautiful stuff! (Even though it's
> > supposed to be a hefty 300 pounds, it feels like it weighs only a few
> > ounces. Good thing; I would have had a hard time lugging the sheet back
> > to the studio if it weighed 300 pounds!)
> >
> > Is 400-pound paper okay? I was tempted to buy that, but no one here
> > recommended it, and it's so stiff I thought it would be too hard to
> > adhere to the museum board I'm thinking of using as a backing.
> >
> > I can't remember if the labels said the paper is cold-or hot-pressed.
> > Does it matter? (The paper didn't feel cold or hot; it felt like about
> > room temperature.)
> >
Tony
Dan & Lori
canvas, no board). For my purposes, I don't really need the tooth that the
gesso provides & I am looking for a medium to prime quickly ( & less
expensively). You mentioned commercial house paint--Is this a latex paint?
Interior or exterior? Can I use "latex house paint primer" as my ground
instead of gesso?
Lori
jax...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <73min0$847$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <365E1C...@designwrite.nu>,
> Kathy Kebarle <thepa...@designwrite.nu> wrote:
>> Is it necessary to gesso (100 per cent rag) watercolor board before
>> painting acrylic paints on it, to get an achival-quality painting?
>
>When talking in terms of what to do and not to do with acrylics,
>think of it this way. Acrylic gesso is exactly the same vehicle
>as that used in the tube colors, in decoupage glues, and in commercial
>house paints. The gesso differs only in the 'filler' and 'pigment'
>used. Tube or jar color pigments are 'encapsulated' or 'coated'
>with the vehicle and very little of the pigment would probably
>actually interact with the underlying support, whether it be paper
>or something else. So the obvious answer is a question -- WHY GESSO?
>
>There is no 'obvious' reason to gesso canvas either if you are
>going to be overpainting with acrylics. Only if you need a pure
>white surface and the toothiness that the gesso offers. I often
>begin with a toned canvas or even a solid black one and I use the
>vehicle (acrylic gloss gel) and tint it with powder pigments or
>with tube colors as a prime coat. NO GESSO. Abby.
>
Helen Fleischer
wrote:
>I am in the process of painting (acrylic) a very large wall hanging (on
>canvas, no board). For my purposes, I don't really need the tooth that the
>gesso provides & I am looking for a medium to prime quickly ( & less
>expensively). You mentioned commercial house paint--Is this a latex paint?
>Interior or exterior? Can I use "latex house paint primer" as my ground
>instead of gesso?
>
I've been wondering the same thing about the acrylic house paints at
Home Depot, Behr brand if I'm remembering correctly. I need to do more
comparison shopping to see if they truly are less expensive than buying
a tub of gesso at Pearl, though. One might think they'd have to be, but
one has been wrong before, when the largest package did not have the
best unit price, for instance.
In my case I have a very large piece of interesting stretched fabric,
that I would like to prime in such a way that some hint of the fabric
colors showed through. I feel it would be an interesting background for
experimentation if these colors could be subdued from their present 70's
oranges and browns. It's nice strong fabric, well stretched and of
course totally free. I figure if it flops, I still have the stretchers,
but it's worth the risk to experiment with it a bit. If nothing else, I
may learn some things about working large.
he...@min.net http://www.min.net/~helen
Helen "Halla" Fleischer,
Fantasy & Fiber Artist in Fairland, MD USA
Marilyn
Watch out for housepaint. It has built-in obsolescence.
For large projects, the ab ex painters contacted paint companies
to make them up good batches. For average size paintings if you
must prime the canvas, just use acrylic medium, with a little
water. That way your paints won't sink in as much.
Marilyn
A. B. Sieze
>>I am in the process of painting (acrylic) a very large wall hanging (on
>>canvas, no board). For my purposes, I don't really need the tooth that the
>>gesso provides & I am looking for a medium to prime quickly ( & less
>>expensively). You mentioned commercial house paint--Is this a latex paint?
>>Interior or exterior? Can I use "latex house paint primer" as my ground
>>instead of gesso?
>>
>
>I've been wondering the same thing about the acrylic house paints at
>Home Depot, Behr brand if I'm remembering correctly.
Acrylic is acrylic is acrylic. It is formulated somewhat differently for
house paints which often include mildew retardants and other additives.
However I have used it successfully for just that reason. It won't
mildew as will straight acrylic in a very humid climate. On the other
hand, house paints are not as good if you need good tooth and that
is what the gesso does for you -- has additional fillers to give it
tooth and more 'body' so that it covers best in fewer coats than does
house paint. I also use clear acrylic varnish with which to prime
raw canvas if I want to 'tone' the ground. I use both powder pigment
and tube colors for the toning.
I have paintings that were painted IN OILS over acrylic house
paint used as a primer that are over 30 years old and show
no sign of deterioration. Cheers, Abby Sieze.
PS One of the most economical sources of acrylic gesso
as well as gels and varnishes is UTRECHT. I buy all of these
by the gallon from them. It comes in plastic pails as opposed
to the metal pails that most house paints come in. Metal
pails corrode over time and the rust can ruin the paint if you
get rust into it.