Charles White - African American art
Thur
African American artist?
Here's a selection:-
http://www.nationalacademy.org/perm/white.html
http://www.artgallery.umd.edu/driskell/exhibition/sec4/whit_c_03.htm
http://www.artgallery.umd.edu/driskell/exhibition/sec3/whit_c_01.htm
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/white_charles_wilbert.html
How doe you rate him?
Thur
keith o'connor
In my opinion it finds resonance in German expressionism, (e.g.., Kathe
Kollwitz), to which I am partial.
The others although skilfully rendered cause me to focus more on the skilful
rendering than on the emotive aspect. I think he could have been an
emotionally powerful painter if he had not succumbed to the photo realist
style which is more detached (mani's no skill no art style) than emotional.
--
take care: Keith
The language of art is not a scientifically accurate language. The language
of art is based upon the application of tendencies and as such creates more
variety of interpretation between people than absolute agreement between
people.
Keith O'Connor
"Thur" <a@spamless.z> wrote in message
news:NV10c.6663$RB....@newsfe2-gui.server.ntli.net...
DNALJM
>emotionally powerful painter if he had not succumbed to the photo realist
>style which is more detached (mani's no skill no art style) than emotional.
Keith, I would respectfully submit that the paintings are figurative with
decorative elements, not photorealism. The camera has a narrow depth of field
and tends to flatten colors and shadows. The one painting I saw was done from
observation and does not look like a cheap color copy like Richard Testes'
paintings.
Jane
keith o'connor
I cannot connect with root pre-classical and or root baroque styles. He has
been classified as a social realist - I'll go with that category.
Figurative with decorative elements - nice phrase. It can be applied to
contemporary realism, social realism, photorealism (you will disagree but in
my interpretation photorealism is a photographic style approach which is
highly imitative of appearance and has nothing to do with a camera's depth
of field flattening of colours etc. (but that definition may have been
modified over the decades and your interpretation may be the current
conventional one).
--
take care: Keith
The language of art is not a scientifically accurate language. The language
of art is based upon the application of tendencies and as such creates more
variety of interpretation between people than absolute agreement between
people.
Keith O'Connor
"DNALJM" <dna...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040228202231...@mb-m22.aol.com...
DNALJM
>I cannot connect with root pre-classical and or root baroque styles.
I know some people use "realism" but as that was an offical term for a
movement in art it tends to cause confusion. The same with "classical," to use
that term evokes Greek statues and other works of the past. I've also heard
used figurative, representational, and traditional, and of the three use the
first for no particular reason. I guess because I think there is more going on
in paintings and drawings than merely a representation, but rather an
interpretation.
>Figurative with decorative elements - nice phrase.
I just made it up. Let's hope it's catchy!
>It can be applied to
>contemporary realism, social realism, photorealism (you will disagree but in
>my interpretation photorealism is a photographic style approach which is
>highly imitative of appearance and has nothing to do with a camera's depth
>of field flattening of colours etc
Well, I tried to isolate why a photorealistic work looks like the
photograph and not what the human eye or other figurative artwork would look
like, generally speaking. Another thing is that objects are more in focus
deeper into the picture plane and also across. That's because the camera can
focus on everything and the eye has to selectively focus with things in the
background and perifieral blurring out. And in a painting the focus is
manipulated with conscious decision to maximize the artist's intent.
Jane
keith o'connor
comics would say " can I have it?".
I think I am beginning to see where you are coming from. My feeling is that
you are looking for a systematic approach to classifying art - and requires
such a general approach to span a long time line in terms of history, but
not chronological because style similarities seem to occur between
primitive and modern societies.
To be successful you may have to start from as base system that uses the
human perceptual system as its foundation. I would recommend that you begin
thinking of artistic expression as founded upon two basic perceptual systems
that interact dialectally with each other, thus creating extensive style /
perceptual variants.
The dialectic interaction between the sense of touch (tactile) and the sense
of seeing (vision) is as far as I am concerned the starting point. You will
note that I root my system in the body not in the mind.
My use of specific terms like classical are not associated in my mind (and
some art historians whom I have read) with mental conjuring up of Greek
statue images as with the special rules associated with the rendering
plastic forms which activate the tactile quality of perception.
As you can see - I have my base system and you have yours.
--
take care: Keith
The language of art is not a scientifically accurate language. The language
of art is based upon the application of tendencies and as such creates more
variety of interpretation between people than absolute agreement between
people.
Keith O'Connor
"DNALJM" <dna...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040229005111...@mb-m22.aol.com...
Thur
I had noticed his "Mother of Courage II" as a powerful
image, carrying a non-realist element in the background,
reflecting the rest of his work.
This combination seems to me to be most successful, and
seems to be his most popular work.
Was he a successful painter during his lifetime?
I looked up Kathe-Kollowitz, and could see what you mean,
but the works I viewed were woodcut prints which apart
from being black and white,much darker and more gloomy.
I suppose that 1930's Germany would do that to you.
Thur
"keith o'connor" <ke...@tinmangallery.com> wrote in message
news:3Q20c.47663$Qg7....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Dilettante
> African American artist?
He's an excellent artist, and we don't need to identify him by his race.
Dilettante
Dilettante
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> I had noticed his "Mother of Courage II" as a powerful
> image, carrying a non-realist element in the background,
> reflecting the rest of his work.
>
> This combination seems to me to be most successful, and
> seems to be his most popular work.
Mother Courage was the name of a play by Brecht, so he was probably a
socialist. That painting of his I like least because it combines
abstract expressionism with realism, each detracts from the other.
D.
Thur
"Dilettante" <hu...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:ba63903f.04030...@posting.google.com...
Why not?
He did himself. Read up.
Thur
Thur
Glad to read your opinion.
Thur
Herbert Ward
nobility (and the artist's perception of it) showed.
To criticize, the painting was not pretty enough. Art which is
merely "shocking" or "powerful" is like kissing a dyke.
His other work did not appeal to me. It seemed interested in "playing
the race card", rather a hopeless subject for painting.
Subjective judgements, all. But that's painting.
Erik A. Mattila
"So mancher Mann sah manchen Mann verreken:
Ein großer Geist blieb in'ner Hure stecken!"
You see, when Brecht writes like that the aesthetic pull is from the
sound and rhythem - the "meaning" only augments the pleasure.
Understanding German might be a distraction, but not necessarily. At
any rate, that's the connection with AE, and White was really astute in
begging the point. Too bad you missed it.
The Usurper might get a kick out of the quote, though.
Erik
Dilettante
> Why not?
> He did himself. Read up.
> Thur
That would be like saying Thur, Geek.
Read up.
Dilettante
Dilettante
> To criticize, the painting was not pretty enough. Art which is
> merely "shocking" or "powerful" is like kissing a dyke.
But they can be pretty good fucks.
>
> His other work did not appeal to me. It seemed interested in "playing
> the race card", rather a hopeless subject for painting.
Playing the race card would be like politicising art, which was the
socialists' big flaw.
Dilettante
Thur
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> wrote in message
news:40458E1...@oco.net...
I know nothing of Brecht, but thanks for the info.
Does this mean that AE really does have a meaning, if only of a
secondary importance?
If so, I will have to pause a little longer in front of one some time :-)
Thur
Chris
I think it might be a deeper relation than that though. The play itself
focuses on the ambivalent nature of life - both in the story line and the
style. Mother Courage in the play is neither portrayed as noble or really
detestable; she's a human being trying to survive - often at the expense of
making decisions one would never wish to have to make. That's reprised in
the painting - or at least seems to be (I was unaware of it until Thur
kindly posted the links, and the reproductions are not very detailed...);
Charles White is emphasizing the humanity of his subject, and he's using a
mix of nominally conflicting artistic styles to do so. I'm not sure where
the Diddler is coming from w/r to "abstract expressionism" (there doesn't
seem to be much gestural looseness in any part of the painting), but the
geometric/abstract and representational aspects guarantee the painting isn't
taken as just a trite illustration of someone who has had a hard life, or a
simple decorative work.
BTW- Thur, thanks for the links; Charles White is definitely a painter worth
thinking about (and learning from)..
Chris
> Erik
>
Erik A. Mattila
Well, we habitually assign meaning to everything, I guess. But the
point was that Brecht was, in my opinion, such a master with sound and
rhythem in his writing you can get-off from it even without
understanding the language he wrote in. Another example off the top of
my head is Edgar Allen Poe's "Bells" - although it's harder for me to
just get into the sound and cadence because I'm an English speaker.
Chinese Opera works too. But that's what I'm holding up as an
equivalency to A&E.
Erik
>
>
Erik A. Mattila
I couldn't really challenge your reading w/o compromising my loyalty to
my satanic lord and master J. Derrida, of course. Seriously, good stuff
- I like what you say. But tell me if you think White owes Gauguin for
some of this: Gauguin often played off figures rendered in renaissance
perspective against almost textile fields. I think it was his part of a
general trend that was going on in French and other art at the time.
That is, playing off illusory picture space against the mundane reality
of the two-dimensional carrier. It creates a rather pleasant ambiguity
and tension, as if "something is going to happen."
Erik
Thur
I suppose that in literature, the same values can be obtained,
although I think they are harder to detect.
It must be taste then, that in poetry of the sort I prefer, I also require
a meaning, one that can share with a fellow reader.
Thanks for your posts.
Thur
Tran Chewla
>Well, we habitually assign meaning to everything, I guess. But the
>point was that Brecht was, in my opinion, such a master with sound and
>rhythem in his writing you can get-off from it even without
>understanding the language he wrote in.
You've lost me with this argument amigo. I don't
speak or understand German either, but what I
do know is that MY pronunciation of German
"as I read it" is nothing like a German's. In
order for me to get the "sound" from Brecht's
writings, I'd have to have a foundation in
German pronunciation - wouldn't I? It's the
same for any language, I think.
Herbert Ward
> > merely "shocking" or "powerful" is like kissing a dyke.
>
> But they can be pretty good fucks.
Hmm, you're right. My simile was poor. "Like kissing a refrigerator"
would be better.
Erik A. Mattila
Good point: but here's the deal...I have a CD "Die Dreigroschenoper"
(The Threepenny Opera) and when I hear that line sung it always hits
home. I think "what genius!" The greatest line ever crafted! +That's+
what I think is comparable to, say, some of Pollack's ptngs. Just the
look and feel of the ptng, without any reference to meaning.
Erik
>
>
>
Tran Chewla
>Good point: but here's the deal...I have a CD "Die Dreigroschenoper"
>(The Threepenny Opera) and when I hear that line sung it always hits
>home. I think "what genius!"
Ahhhh... but you're arguing your point here
in a textual forum where the is no "real sound"
to speak of. Unless you have an active imagination,
that is!! I too love listening to "foreign
language" in an audio format, but most of what
I get to hear is sung in Spanish.
Erik A. Mattila
"Soy Un Perdido." E
>
>
Chris
> I couldn't really challenge your reading w/o compromising my loyalty to
> my satanic lord and master J. Derrida, of course. Seriously, good stuff
> - I like what you say. But tell me if you think White owes Gauguin for
> some of this: Gauguin often played off figures rendered in renaissance
> perspective against almost textile fields. I think it was his part of a
> general trend that was going on in French and other art at the time.
> That is, playing off illusory picture space against the mundane reality
> of the two-dimensional carrier. It creates a rather pleasant ambiguity
> and tension, as if "something is going to happen."
>
I think you are right re. Gaugin, and to some extent van Gogh. The "textile
fields" bit put me in mind of Debora Silverman's book "Van Gogh and Gaugin
(the Search for Sacred Art)" - have you read it? I'm too bad a typist to do
it justice this late in the evening, but if you get a chance, I think you
would find it worth a look.
Not that it doesn't have a long history; Paintings that don't build that
tension get boring pretty quickly no matter how exquisitely the work is done
(e.g. Bouguereau) or how "modern" (e.g. Matisse - especially his later
work). And I realize of course that's a matter of taste But for me that
mechanism that draws you into the work through ambiguity just doesn't exist
in either. OTOH, going back to painters like Goya to Rembrandt to da Vinci -
all seem to leave so much open and undecided, at least on the surface.
W/r to just the pleasure of sound in the Brecht work - the AE element - is
that akin to listening to Dylan Thomas read his own poetry? I never cared
much about the aunts and uncles and the snow in "A Childs' Christmas in
Wales", but I can still feel, and almost see, the fragments of words wrapped
up in his rich Welsh voice rolling out of the radio....
Bach (especially some of the cantatas) has a not dissimilar effect..
Cheers;
Chris
Dilettante
has a not dissimilar effect..
>
> Cheers;
>
> Chris
Say whu?
D.