beginner seeking advice
Marie
years later I feel very frustrated when I see paintings in art galleries or
stores and I wished I hadn't given it up. I would very much like to go back
at it but feel like I can't draw anymore. I don't know where to start. I
would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
etc. I recently tried to draw my children with a simple pencil. I liked the
results but it took me a lot of hours and frustration. I can copy things
fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ? Should I go through the
painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
painting? I also don't know what to draw or paint. Copying doesn't
particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
A confused ex-beginner....
Marie
Marilyn
I would say, don't try to copy, just let your pencil do the walking
as Paul Klee said. See what comes up.
You obviously have the desire
and drawing is a hand-eye coordinated skill which anyone can learn.
If you start with great expectations, you only disappoint yourself.
"Drawing with the Right-Side of the Brain" is a pretty good book,
then you
could try contour drawings. Draw without looking at the paper,
just look at the contour of the objects and slowly have your pencil
copy that outline. (blind contour) Then try it with looking at the
paper.
Also you could try a self-portrait a day.
best wishes
Marilyn
Charles Eicher
> I used to draw in high school. For personal reasons, I gave it up. Now 20
> years later I feel very frustrated when I see paintings in art galleries or
> stores and I wished I hadn't given it up. I would very much like to go back
> at it but feel like I can't draw anymore. I don't know where to start. I
> would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
> etc. I recently tried to draw my children with a simple pencil. I liked the
> results but it took me a lot of hours and frustration.
Sounds like some common problems with beginning drawing, but you're on the
right track. If you're having trouble with pencils, take a trip to the art
supplies shop. Pencils come in a lot of different soft/hard types, maybe
you will find something more suitable for you. There's even some
water-soluble pencils and crayons that you can blend with a wet brush or
even a QTip..
I can copy things
> fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ? Should I go through the
> painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
> painting? I also don't know what to draw or paint. Copying doesn't
> particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
> you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
Don't worry so much about training and planning and all that. Try to work
with some of the ideas that interested you in trying drawing in the first
place. Try getting a sketchbook, and make lots of experiments and sketches,
but don't try to produce anything that is "finished" artwork. Do a lot of
experiments, and be prepared to make a zillion mistakes. I think you learn
a lot from mistakes, so I don't attach too much importance to whether a
piece is "good" or "bad" but its more important if you learned something in
the process.
I remember when I went back to art school after years and years.. I painted
on and off for years, but when I had to go back and be serious, I had to do
a lot of drawing first, just to get back up to speed.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Mavarla
Marie, do consider a night class or two...just to be around *other*
artists...don't compare yourself to them because no one is looking to see if
you're "better" or "worse" than they...you'll enjoy the camaraderie.
I had dropped out of serious art study in '78, only to find myself embracing
the whole world again nearly ten years later and it was beyond wonderful: I
felt like I had "come home" and was where I had always belonged, as a child.
Have a beautiful journey back.
:)
--{--{--@
Larry Seiler
is never too late. The arts return contemplation to life and a sense of
sanity in a stressed out world and worth the return Marie if for no other
reason than that. Skill can be developed if you desire it enough....but
passion is the issue.
I recommend getting a sketch book and begin loosely and quickly rendering
anything and everything. It matters little "what" the object is, because
your eye needs to be developed and all things have shape, form...etc;
If you like birds, get a video from the library and use your vcr to freeze
frame images for roughly 30-40 seconds and do quick sketches. It matters
little how excellent the drawings appear to you....for this forced effort
is training your eye to see..and multiple sketches will help. Soon you'll
notice your eye sees things quicker, and the hand begins to cooperate and
work with you. I suggest even a simple medium Bic black ink ball point
pen.
Then.....you might try getting a simple watercolor set and finish off some
of the drawings with simple washes of color.....mixing pencil and pen, etc;
all of course yet in your sketch book.
After filling a couple sketch books, the enthusiasm will mount, and the
confidence will build.
When you begin to entertain trying pastel or paintings........just remember
that one must pay their dues, and a thing I tell people is that they cannot
determine if they can paint or not by doing 2-3 paintings. It is more
likely that after a person completes about 120 bad paintings...they will
know something about paintings, and about making good ones. There is no
substitute for the "doing" of the body of work to develop yourself.
But...for goodness sake, don't just sit there and wonder if you should or
shouldn't !!!! Don't let your apprehensions kill your dreams.....! Do it
! and ....have fun.
~8^)
Larry
Larry Seiler
my art web site at- http://cwinc.net/larryseiler
my NetMinistrie's page at- http://netministries.org/see/charmin/CM00117
"It's not what happens to you, but in you that matters!" (author unknown)
Lucy Furr
>
>I used to draw in high school. For personal reasons, I gave it up.
RULE No. ONE -- Do it for the pleasure and relaxation it
provides, never take yourself seriously, and never worry
about what it DOESN'T look like.
One thing to remember too that you may not have thought
of is that 'copying' includes drawing from life. There is
NO substitute for doing that exercise if you wish to learn
to draw from memory. You have to see it before you can
draw it as you've already pointed out -- and if it's not in
memory I can assure you drawing it from life is the BEST
way to indelibly inscribe it in memory. Lucy F.
Mavarla
was the only one who did this, and Lucy, the point about drawing from life as
being "copying" was a profound comment: It's so true *and*, it's probably the
best way to copy, because one is right there, having to *train* the eyes/mind
to foreshorten what otherwise would already be two-dimensionally flattened.
Another thing to consider, Marie, is this: Try to take in, at a gallery or a
museum, Old Masters' drawings "in person," so to speak, when they're on
view...you'd be amazed at what shows up on them, when viewed directly, as
opposed to from a book.
Original drawings show construction lines, things erased, etc.,...in short,
that these hallowed Masters really aren't as "infallible" and as "perfect" as
we think...they, too, changed their minds and made many a mistake.
Again, have a wonderful, beautiful journey...at times, it does get frustrating,
but don't tear up an entire drawing because you feel it isn't "good enough" as
a whole: There is *always* at least one or two good things in it...one of my
teachers told me this and he also told me to rip out those one or two good
sections and save them.
Another bit of helpful advice he gave me was to display my drawings on the wall
every day and look---live---with them...to just tack them up...nothing fancy,
the idea being, was that one would begin to see one's areas of improvement
needed, better, and it's true.
---{---{--@
Helen Lawler
Hi Marie,
Everybody has great advice on this so I'll my comments short.
1. Carry a sketchbook everywhere with you. Do quick sketches of
anything. This will help you to become confident with the pencil.
2. Try to stick to one medium at a time. Get comfortable with it and
explore it's capabilities.
3. Enrol in an art class. You can swap ideas, learn new techniques
and get some valuable critique on your work. The subject is usually
already set up, or a model will be available.
Norman Strand~
I would recogmend avoiding drawing on newsprint, spend the extra money and get
good paper. I use 100% cotton rag typing paper that I get at a stationary store.
It is 8 1/2 x 11. I have some sketches that are 20 years old and still look
good and some on newsprint that yellowed a long time ago. Boarder's books here
locally have sketch books with good paper for about $6.00.
I do not work for Boarder's Books and this is not the opinion of intel corp.
Norman Strand
--
Intel, Corp.
5000 W. Chandler Blvd.
Chandler, AZ 85226
Mavarla
"The subject is usually already set up, or a model will be available."
To this, I might add, asking an attractive stranger, in public, if he or she is
an "artist's model" and giving him/her one's fine art business card is a great
"icebreaker," hah!
Seriously, though, "attractive" or "not," drawing a live model is *always*
fascinating: There is life there...emotions moving across a person's face which
tend to come into the drawing(s), themselves.
Norman said something about using archival quality paper, which is a good idea,
but here's my tip for saving $$$:
De-acidify (ph-balance) thick "cheap" paper with baking soda in the bath tub
or a large, flat tray with sides (check yellow pages for wholesale paper
outlets---many varieties, large sizes and textures, at 1/3 to 1/4 the price of
"acid free" art store varieties).
A tablespoon per sheet, for twenty minutes, submerged, in lukewarm water.
Lay the sheet on a grate/screen for easy removal before placing in the tub/tray
or just unplug the water in the tub...either way, be careful and don't handle
the sheet until it's 30% dry...stretch as you would watercolor paper.
jha...@om.com.au
nst...@hal136.ch.intel.com (Norman Strand~) wrote:
> In article <35c85...@139.134.5.33>, "Helen Lawler"
<lawler...@bigpond.com> writes:
> |>
> |> Hi Marie,
> |>
> |> Everybody has great advice on this so I'll my comments short.
> |>
> |> 1. Carry a sketchbook everywhere with you. Do quick sketches of
> |> anything. This will help you to become confident with the pencil.
> |>
> |> 2. Try to stick to one medium at a time. Get comfortable with it and
> |> explore it's capabilities.
> |>
> |> 3. Enrol in an art class. You can swap ideas, learn new techniques
> |> already set up, or a model will be available.
> |>
> |>
> |>
>
> good paper. I use 100% cotton rag typing paper that I get at a stationary
store.
> It is 8 1/2 x 11. I have some sketches that are 20 years old and still look
> good and some on newsprint that yellowed a long time ago. Boarder's books
here
> locally have sketch books with good paper for about $6.00.
>
> I do not work for Boarder's Books and this is not the opinion of intel corp.
>
> Norman Strand
> --
> Intel, Corp.
> 5000 W. Chandler Blvd.
> Chandler, AZ 85226
>
I can only comment that I once knew an excellent artist who spent his life
'looking for a line'. Whatever else was happening, wars or famine, he was
always searching for a line. And when he discovered one! ...it was as if it
were etched in his soul. What a great single mindedness. He lived to draw.
Drawing was his ambition and painting his hobby. He talked of masculine
lines, feminine lines and lines that were somehow ambiguous. He was a
wonderful character and a great artist. I have written a few lessons on
drawing but find it a difficult subject to teach. 'Keep looking for the
line.' Regards; John Hagan
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Hugh Stegman
mav...@aol.com (Mavarla) wrote:
>Marie, do consider a night class or two...just to be around *other*
>artists...don't compare yourself to them because no one is looking to see
if
>you're "better" or "worse" than they...you'll enjoy the camaraderie.
I can second this. The environment seems far more supportive than I
remember my undergrad experiences ever being. It's a chance to look at a
lot of other solutions to the same problems you are doing, and ask a lot
of questions.
I'm getting back into drawing, and it's perfectly true, the sooner you make
your first 5000 mistakes the sooner you can fix them. It's like learning a
musical instrument, except that your practice is visible later to others.
But it's still your practice, and subjective notions of quality aren't
important. You're getting your chops together.
>felt like I had "come home" and was where I had always belonged, as a
child.
Isn't that great? Best drug out there, and it's legal.
-hugh
artcitrino
for 35 years. Forget about it!
If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
should not. There are too many of us out here working our asses off. You
girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick up
"art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
really are silly.
I really hope you just take up gardening or something else. If you were
meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
Drawing skills do not an artist make. SORRY.
Rachel
Marie wrote in message <01bdbee8$0826e9e0$676aa5c6@Williams>...
>I used to draw in high school. For personal reasons, I gave it up. Now 20
>years later I feel very frustrated when I see paintings in art galleries or
>stores and I wished I hadn't given it up. I would very much like to go back
>at it but feel like I can't draw anymore. I don't know where to start. I
>would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
>etc. I recently tried to draw my children with a simple pencil. I liked the
>fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
>be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ? Should I go through the
>painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
>painting? I also don't know what to draw or paint. Copying doesn't
>particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
>you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
>
> Marie
Skely
"artcitrino" <artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
Being an artist is not by any means is being a perfect technical drawer.
Anyone can learn a skill of drawing. I used to teach people that never
held a pencil in their life, they learned the skill. Not every person who
can draw or even paint is an artist. That comes from within...
And to draw well, you do need to practice every day.
For all beginners the best things to practice drawing - is drawing anything
in your house. Take a shoe and draw it. Take a cup and draw it. You can
end up drawing the same thing in different view every day for a long time.
It's the practice that makes you draw with more ease....
Natasha
Andrew Werby
<artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> for 35 years. Forget about it!
> If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
> should not. There are too many of us out here working our asses off.
[I really don't see how somebody practicing drawing in their spare time
threatens you as professional artist. It actually works the other way;
having made the attempt, the amateur is enabled to appreciate the virtuosity
of the professional. You can see this in sports- the reason spectator sports
are popular is because people have tried making those catches or kicking
those goals themselves, so they can understand what goes into a great
performance. One of the reason visual arts are falling into obscurity is
that they have been eliminated from the school curriculum by people whose
reasoning is similar to the comment above- if the students aren't going
to be Picasso or somebody, then they are wasting their time, and if they
are then they will be "compelled" to do it anyway. I don't think this is
really how it works. This "compulsion" theory is a modern myth- most great
art was created by people trying to make money.]
You
> girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick up
> "art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
> really are silly.
[I don't think the original post said anything about acclaim; it sounded like
something she wanted to do for her own satisfaction- I say more power to her]
> I really hope you just take up gardening or something else. If you were
> meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
[Sometimes people take up a practice late in life, for one reason or another,
and achieve amazing things. Everybody isn't a child prodigy, and often
creative urges are stifled in the young. Today is the first day of the rest
of your life- make the most of it, and don't let the nasty things people
might say bother you one bit.]
> Drawing skills do not an artist make.
[This is true, although they don't hurt. A thick skin is the main prerequisite.]
SORRY.
> Rachel
[You ought to be- Where's this art you've been working on for the last 35 years,
Rachel? Maybe we could critique it here, and decide if your eminence is such
as to discourage the aspirations of others?]
> Marie wrote in message <01bdbee8$0826e9e0$676aa5c6@Williams>...
> >I used to draw in high school. For personal reasons, I gave it up. Now 20
> >years later I feel very frustrated when I see paintings in art galleries or
> >stores and I wished I hadn't given it up. I would very much like to go back
> >at it but feel like I can't draw anymore. I don't know where to start. I
> >would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
> >etc. I recently tried to draw my children with a simple pencil. I liked the
> >results but it took me a lot of hours and frustration. I can copy things
> >fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> >be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ?
[Some can, some can't. Practice "copying" real objects, and you will be better
at recreating objects that aren't in front of you.]
Should I go through the
> >painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
> >painting?
[Lessons work for some people, others do better practicing on their own. If
you find it hard to justify the time spent, then being in a group and having
somebody give you assignments can help.]
I also don't know what to draw or paint.
[It doesn't really matter what, the important thing is just doing it.]
Copying doesn't
> >particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
> >you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
A confused ex-beginner....
> > Marie
[It sounds like you have that common problem that stops a lot of people's
creativity- you are frustrated with your low skill level, and hypercritical
of your results. Learning to draw is like learning the piano- you can't
expect to sound like Horowitz after one lesson. It takes work, and means
spoiling a lot of perfectly good paper- now get out there and kill some trees!]
Andrew Werby
> >
> >
UNITED ARTWORKS- Sculpture, Jewelry, and other art stuff
http://unitedartworks.com
New- Artworks Computer Tools for 3d Design and Realization
Bob C
>
> In article <u3tYVsxx9GA.318@upnetnews03>, "artcitrino"
> <artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> > I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> > for 35 years. Forget about it!
> > If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
> > should not. There are too many of us out here working our asses off.
>
> [I really don't see how somebody practicing drawing in their spare time
> threatens you as professional artist. It actually works the other way;
> having made the attempt, the amateur is enabled to appreciate the virtuosity
I agree completely, although I think the reasons for encouraging people
to take up art go so far beyond the few reasons that you listed that I'm
not even going to try to describe them all. Ok, I'll list one - given
that the typical alternative for spending ones spare time usually
involves television, this alone is reason enough to encourage anyone and
everyone to take up art instead!
> ... I can copy things
> > >fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> > >be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ?
>
> [Some can, some can't. Practice "copying" real objects, and you will be better
> at recreating objects that aren't in front of you.]
>
Admittedly I'm just a hobbyist, but after several years of drawing and
painting courses, I still can't draw worth a damn from memory. I can
draw humans from memory, but that's only because I went through an
entire book on anatomy for artists. When I can draw from memory, it
isn't because I can visualize the object, it's because I know how to
construct it. Learning perspective is another wonderful tool that helps
my "drawing from memory".
Bob C.
Lauri Levanto
every day.
Then I dropped out for over 30 years. Moved to another town. In order
to
make friends I took evening classes, and was hooked into sculpturing.
In a couple of years I gained back some drawinn skills.
Marie> > ... I can copy things
> > > >fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> > > >be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ?
Draw from real 3-d objects, not two-dimensional pictures.
You have to learn to LOOK again.
Drawing from memory. First it takes some time to collect the memories!
Many authors collect sayings is tiny notepads. These fragments are used
to create the language of the characters in the novels.
The same way a visual artist collects images. Many of my co-workers feel
it
disturbing that during a discussion I keep looking at the details of a
nostril
or collarbone.
AW> > [Some can, some can't. Practice "copying" real objects, and you
will be better
> > at recreating objects that aren't in front of you.]
Bob> Admittedly I'm just a hobbyist, but after several years of drawing
and
> painting courses, I still can't draw worth a damn from memory. I can
> draw humans from memory, but that's only because I went through an
> entire book on anatomy for artists. When I can draw from memory, it
> isn't because I can visualize the object, it's because I know how to
> construct it. Learning perspective is another wonderful tool that helps
> my "drawing from memory".
As Andrew and Bob described, drawing from memory is more often
reconstruction
of the image. Anatomy and perspective studies help to avoid gross
mistakes.
before you can draw a face from memory, however, you must learn to
memorize the details.
* * *
As a grownup you have one advantage over young art students.
You may have some experience, something to say. That is the point.
Please, go on.
take it as work, not hobby.
For your own sake, it is worth of it
- lauri
--
Seek the truth, my son
and beware those who have found it
Misty Fide
>Admittedly I'm just a hobbyist, but after several years of drawing and
>painting courses, I still can't draw worth a damn from memory.
Those who can are usually those who have an intimate
knowledge of their subject. Horse lovers who were raised
with horses for example. You and I know facial features
very intimately -- our own -- so that whenever we draw
a face from memory it very likely has many of our own
facial characteristics. That is why the act of drawing from
life -- using a real object as the model --
is so very important to being able to later draw from
memory. Nothing impresses it on our memory bank better
than a detailed rendering from life, be it a tree, a windmill,
or a person. Misty Fide.
kag...@ecr.net
first one I read . . . well we won't go there.
Painting, drawing, etc. are very rewarding and well worth the time and
effort. In my younger days (I'm still young at heart), I was never
exposed to "fine art" nor had the opportunity to do much drawing,
etc.; but, when I finally realized my interest and gave it a try, I
really think my creativity and ability to paint blossomed. And, yes,
I do consider myself an artist. It's not my full-time profession, but
it is an important part of ME.
Go ahead and give it your best. You might surprise yourself and
everyone around you!
Cheers!
Kathi : )
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:18:36 -0400, Bob C <bob...@erols.com> wrote:
>Andrew Werby wrote:
>>
>> In article <u3tYVsxx9GA.318@upnetnews03>, "artcitrino"
>> <artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
>> > for 35 years. Forget about it!
>> > If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
>> > should not. There are too many of us out here working our asses off.
>>
>> [I really don't see how somebody practicing drawing in their spare time
>> threatens you as professional artist. It actually works the other way;
>> having made the attempt, the amateur is enabled to appreciate the virtuosity
>> of the professional. ...
>
>I agree completely, although I think the reasons for encouraging people
>to take up art go so far beyond the few reasons that you listed that I'm
>not even going to try to describe them all. Ok, I'll list one - given
>that the typical alternative for spending ones spare time usually
>involves television, this alone is reason enough to encourage anyone and
>everyone to take up art instead!
>
>> ... I can copy things
>> > >fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
>> > >be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ?
>>
>> [Some can, some can't. Practice "copying" real objects, and you will be better
>> at recreating objects that aren't in front of you.]
>>
>
>Admittedly I'm just a hobbyist, but after several years of drawing and
>painting courses, I still can't draw worth a damn from memory. I can
>draw humans from memory, but that's only because I went through an
>entire book on anatomy for artists. When I can draw from memory, it
>isn't because I can visualize the object, it's because I know how to
>construct it. Learning perspective is another wonderful tool that helps
>my "drawing from memory".
>
>Bob C.
garre...@zebra.net
Skely <sk...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <u3tYVsxx9GA.318@upnetnews03>,
> "artcitrino" <artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> >I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> >for 35 years. Forget about it!
> >If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
> >girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick up
> >"art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
> >really are silly.
> >meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
> >Rachel
> >Marie wrote in message <01bdbee8$0826e9e0$676aa5c6@Williams>...
> >>I used to draw in high school. For personal reasons, I gave it up. Now 20
> >>years later I feel very frustrated when I see paintings in art galleries or
> >>stores and I wished I hadn't given it up. I would very much like to go back
> >>at it but feel like I can't draw anymore. I don't know where to start. I
> >>would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
> >>etc. I recently tried to draw my children with a simple pencil. I liked the
> >>fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> >>painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
> >>particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
> >>you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
> >>
> >> A confused ex-beginner....
> >> Marie
> >
> >
>
> Anyone can learn a skill of drawing. I used to teach people that never
> held a pencil in their life, they learned the skill. Not every person who
> can draw or even paint is an artist. That comes from within...
> And to draw well, you do need to practice every day.
> For all beginners the best things to practice drawing - is drawing anything
> in your house. Take a shoe and draw it. Take a cup and draw it. You can
> end up drawing the same thing in different view every day for a long time.
> It's the practice that makes you draw with more ease....
> Natasha
>
When you draw, remember, dont't rush. Focus on the overall form of the
object. Examine it, then draw it. You must "understand" the object and all
its shadows and textures before you can truly "see" it. Take your time. Don't
listen to those that are like artcitrino. They don't know what they are
talking about. Unfortunately, the art world is full of self proclaimed
"artists" that would rather see you confused and disheartened. This makes up
for their own artistic shortcomings.
Marie
A little while back I posted a message seeking advice about wanting
to go back to some kind of art as I used to do in my teenage years.
Unfortunately, I've been without a computer since then and to my
disappointment the answers to my message are no longer available on my
server. This is why I am posting this again.
To summarize, I have been wanting to draw, paint etc for the last year
or so but because I gave up any form of art for the last 20 years, I
litterally do not know where to start. I feel very bad at it even if I
remember that I could draw fairly well a long time ago. I often wonder what
to draw and what choices to make. There are so many different medias
available today, how to choose ? Classes are available everywhere in all
styles and medias.... Should an artist be good in all forms of art or can
one stick to oil painting or pen and ink drawing for instance...? I also
feel very discouraged when I see the beautiful art around me and feel that
I'll never be "that good" so why try....
Thank you for reading my message again.
Marie
William O. Barrett
> To summarize, I have been wanting to draw, paint etc for the last year
> or so but because I gave up any form of art for the last 20 years, I
> litterally do not know where to start. I feel very bad at it even if I
> remember that I could draw fairly well a long time ago. I often wonder what
> to draw and what choices to make. There are so many different medias
> available today, how to choose ? Classes are available everywhere in all
> styles and medias.... Should an artist be good in all forms of art or can
> one stick to oil painting or pen and ink drawing for instance...? I also
> feel very discouraged when I see the beautiful art around me and feel that
> I'll never be "that good" so why try....
My overly simpostic answer is that you just do SOMETHING. Stop
worrying. Just do it. Take a class, start doing pencil drawings, and
so on. You'll soon discover your old abilities and you'll also probably
gain insight into where to go in teh future. Learn by doing. We can't
answer these questions for you............
William O. Barrett
> I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> You girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick up
> "art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
> really are silly.
> I really hope you just take up gardening or something else. If you were
> meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
> Drawing skills do not an artist make. SORRY.
I think Marie not only should be encouraged to pursue something tha she
is clearly interested in and likes, she has every right to do things
that make her feel fulfilled and informed. And you are simply an
incredible sour-puss whiner. Get a life. Perhaps it's you who should
have taken up gardening?
Carlos Martins
In article <u3tYVsxx9GA.318@upnetnews03>,
"artcitrino" <artci...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
>for 35 years. Forget about it!
>If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
>should not. There are too many of us out here working our asses off. You
>girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick up
>"art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
>really are silly.
if this is what Marie meant, i have to agree. Drawing skills are not enough to
make an artist.
Being an artist is not by any means is being a perfect technical drawer.
Anyone can learn a skill of drawing. I used to teach people that never
held a pencil in their life, they learned the skill. Not every person who
can draw or even paint is an artist. That comes from within...
And to draw well, you do need to practice every day.
For all beginners the best things to practice drawing - is drawing anything
in your house. Take a shoe and draw it. Take a cup and draw it. You can
end up drawing the same thing in different view every day for a long time.
It's the practice that makes you draw with more ease....
Natasha
totally agree with what Natasha said. Not every person who can draw or even
paint
is an artist. I used to make my art works without needing to draw it or
draw it as a professional drawer. Well, if necessary i will do it but rreally
don`t like the results in the sense of being creative. Art comes more from
within as also said by Natasha. If you feel that so i suggest you to go
ahead without needing to be a professional drawer.
But please follow the Natasha' advise.
Regards
Carlos Martins
www.openart.com/artistes/martins/Default.htm
Ne...@my-dejanews.com
personal benefit and not for profit (otherwise you may want to research the
teachings of Mark Kostabi). I would suggest starting modestly, with simple
subject matter and build from there. When I was doing my fine arts degree I
had to draw the same simple still life over and over again for half of one
year - different lighting conditions, different angles, using graphite,
charcoal, ink wash, etc. Choose simple forms to begin with - a plate (flat
disk), a mug (cylinder), and an apple (sphere). When drawing the still life
you quickly begin to deconstruct the composition as you put it to paper. You
no longer see the plate, mug, or apple but it becomes an exercise in light
and dark, shadows and reflections and how you interpret reality. You'll find
it will really bring you back up to speed with regards to your illustrative
capabilities. Then you can slowly explore more detailed and complex subject
matter - just don't get ahead of yourself or you're likely to get
discouraged. I remember when I began developing my figure drawing skills
(this was right after the still life exercises), at first it was a question
of "can" I render the model accurately but it slowly developed to "how" to
render the model because accuracy became a given. As far as media goes, do
what ever you like, draw, paint, sculpt, take photographs, whatever. Just
remember, once you know the basics it's all up to you - hell, I'm a graphic
designer now.
Hope this helps.
Nevik
In article <01bdc983$a34d68e0$9d6aa5c6@Williams>,
"Marie" <dm...@nfld.com> wrote:
>
> A little while back I posted a message seeking advice about wanting
> to go back to some kind of art as I used to do in my teenage years.
> Unfortunately, I've been without a computer since then and to my
> disappointment the answers to my message are no longer available on my
> server. This is why I am posting this again.
>
> To summarize, I have been wanting to draw, paint etc for the last year
> or so but because I gave up any form of art for the last 20 years, I
> litterally do not know where to start. I feel very bad at it even if I
> remember that I could draw fairly well a long time ago. I often wonder what
> to draw and what choices to make. There are so many different medias
> available today, how to choose ? Classes are available everywhere in all
> styles and medias.... Should an artist be good in all forms of art or can
> one stick to oil painting or pen and ink drawing for instance...? I also
> feel very discouraged when I see the beautiful art around me and feel that
> I'll never be "that good" so why try....
>
> Thank you for reading my message again.
>
> Marie
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Deana Zdroj-Nealon
School after my first year to get married back in 88. I have since be so
occuppied with my family that art wasn't an option for me any longer and I
lost all desire to do anything. Now I am on disability from my job and I
have found my creative energy dying to get out. What I have do is to start
from scratch. I feel I have forgotten soo much. I went to an art supply
store and bought about 10 different hardnesses of graphite pencil, a sketch
pad, some oil pastels, erasers, and also 2 drawing books (you know the one
that are under $10). I have been doing the exercises in these 2 books and I
am amazed at how easily it is coming back to me. Faces are an intrigue to
me, so I have been practicing like I did in High School. Copying photographs
of models out of numerous magazines. I am truely impressed by the impressed
by what time and maturity has done for my art.
Best Of Luck,
Deana
ClockWatcher
Don't get discouraged. Whoever that goof was that told you to take up
gardening has it all wrong.
I'm also one of those artistic casualties where life got in the way and I
gave it up for a while....12 years to be exact. I now have some free time
and have got back into the discipline of painting.
Choosing what to do can be daunting. In my case I always liked the look of
watercolors so I concentrated on that. Now and again I'll pick up my
acrylics but mostly I pour over watercolor books and magazines and as soon
as I discover an interesting painting I'll try to learn as much as I can
about the colors used, the paper used, and try to duplicate what I see in a
quick sketch.
In addition I hop in the car or ride my bike on saturdays and sundays, with
camera, and look for subjects in my surrounding area. Even during the week,
as I'm driving home from work, I look at things with an eye toward painting.
I actually pay attention to what I'm looking at now. If I see something I
make a mental note and jot the location down when I get home. It's a great
sense of freedom and excitement to get out and "discover" things for the
first time. (You'd be surprised at how much you miss or don't notice because
of your hectic life. Subject matter is all around you, including your
refrigerator and cupboards!!)
I'll also give you a tip to help you through your fear of getting started.
(Creative subject wise)
It's been my observation that most beginners stubbornly try to work through
a phase where they think they must learn how to render images with a pencil
before they can go any further. "If I can't draw it I can't paint it." And
isn't it true that most of us don't really want to mess with the drawing
part but want to get to the color part? So what happens? The budding artist
gives up because the skill of drawing takes a long time to develop and the
artist never quite gets to the painting stage.
So Marie I would encourage you to keep developing your hand-eye coordination
by sketching every day. However if you're open minded, read what I do to get
down to the business of painting while I wait for my drawing skills to
develop. Keep in mind there are many successful artists across the nation
who utilize the following, even those who can draw and choose not to.
The following works best with watercolor due to the transparency of the
paint:
1: Take pictures with your camera of whatever interests you. Pay attention
to composing the picture before your snap an image off.
2: Develop the film. Look carefully at the pictures. Choose one that looks
good compositionally and holds your interest.
3: At any good photography store you should be able to purchase slide
holders. I had some old slides around the house. They were plastic and I
pried one of them open and removed the old slide.
4: Find the negative of the picture you chose to paint. Cut the negative and
place it in the slide holder.
5: Tape your watercolor paper on the wall.
5: Insert the slide in a slide projector and project it on the watercolor
paper. (My slide projector is a 30 year old projector that my father-in-law
had)
6: Do a pencil contour line drawing of what is projected on the paper. I
usually do the major lines and don't get involved with every single detail.
When you are done, turn off the projector and turn on the lights. You should
see an accurate contour drawing on the paper, ready for you to start
painting.
You don't need to draw everything that appears in the photograph, and you
don't need to reproduce the colors of the photograph. Experiment and have
fun.
One last tip. If you own a flatbed scanner you can scan the photograph,
enlarge the image to 8x10 or so, and print it on glossy paper with your ink
jet printer. When you're done you'll have a "reference photo" you can refer
to as you paint. The glossy paper will give you a photographic likeness.
Hopefully this has been helpful.
Chuck
Marie wrote in message <01bdc983$a34d68e0$9d6aa5c6@Williams>...
>
> A little while back I posted a message seeking advice about wanting
>to go back to some kind of art as I used to do in my teenage years.
SNIP
Marilyn
Gardening is IN. It spans all classes of people.
We may thank the upper class writer/gardeners like Gerturde
Jeckell, & Vita Sackville West for some of that.
I recently read a magazine devoted to Garden Art around the
world.
I love my living palette, and my living/changing/dying
"canvas" and do you want to know something?
People seem more interested in my gardens than my paintings.
(Now someone can jump in and say something mean about my
paintings but they have already been critiqued, thanks).
Maybe in view of global climate change, and the dangerous edge
we live on, ruining arable land, and running out of food - globally,
more people should put down their paint brushes and take up a
shovel.
Of course, I continue to do both...
Marilyn
ClockWatcher
Nothing's wrong with gardening. I have a large garden in the back yard,
vegetable rather than flower though. Potatos, beans, tomatos, cabbage,
carrots, caulliflower, and cucumbers. My onions did nothing this year.
You must not have been following the thread. I was responding to an
individual who wrote the following:
artcitrino wrote:
> I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> for 35 years..... There are too many of us out here working our asses off.
> You girls who get a little free time after the kids leave and then pick up
> "art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13 days
> really are silly.
> I really hope you just take up gardening or something else. If you were
> meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
> Drawing skills do not an artist make. SORRY.
So, I was trying to offer a little encouragement to Marie, the person who
the above writer was trashing.
Perhaps you have a different perspective now. I appreciate your enthusiasm
for gardening and sharing it with me, however you read way to much into one
sentence.
Chuck
Marilyn wrote in message <35dc6...@news.victoria.tc.ca>...
anjali...@hotmail.com
subject matter is to be found everywhere.Some of my most satisfying and
appreciated work is of mundane subjects like the bonsai pots in my balcony or
trousers drying on the rail or still-life at the kitchen top. When I tire of
this, I turn to townscape and streetscape. However we in India face a
particular problem with this.It is extremely difficult to work on site doing
say a market-scene .In a few minutes you are surrounded by a crowd.One
alternative I have found viable is to sit in the car and sketch out the scene
.Or then there is photography. My method hereis somewhat different from
Chuck's. I take colour prints of the photograph,and choose the elements I
want to include and then I do a free-hand drawing of these elements,ignoring
the proportions and colours the original scene had and going just bywhat
seems right for that particular picture. So marie, go for it .The joys of
sketching and painting can only be experienced. I have put up my work on my
own website,http://www.artbrush.net. Regards. --Anjali
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Brother Alphabet
On 3 Aug 1998, Marie wrote:
> I would very much like to go back
> at it but feel like I can't draw anymore.
This feeling is mostly related to confidence. I have been
drawing/painting/whatevering continually since I was a little kid. I still
have that feeling of self-doubt when I begin down a new avenue...
"I don't know what I'm doing...this is ridiculous..." etc etc. I think
it's natural to feel this, especially when you haven't worked for 20
years. The only thing to keep in mind is that your ability is not lost,
it's just dormant. You have to work to wake it up. That's the catch 22 of
creation, to make it sound all hokey...The more you draw, the more you
see, the more you see, the better you draw.
I get lost in the murky nonsense when I get far enough away from the
'staples' to forget what they are...So when I realize I'm lost, I get out
the charcoals and set up a still life. Returning to the basics cures any
representational ails, abstract or otherwise.
You also need to remember not to put so much pressure on yourself. Relax
and get into the process of learning an object. Do not allow yourself to
become obsessed over making the drawing perfect...that's the best way to
screw up, first of all, and it's also the best way to make sure your
confidence never builds.
Art is not quite like riding a bike. About the only thing you never forget
is the way you used to be able to do things. It is likely that you will
have to forge new techniques after so much time. Still, no matter what,
the best way to work is one drawing at a time. Don't expect to be able to
draw something as complicated as your children's portraits the first time
you sit down to work. Start with simple, basic objects. Spheres, Cubes,
Cones...Work out the rudiments, then move to objects similar to
those...Apples, light bulbs, etc...Let yourself progress rather than
jumping right into the most difficult tasks...
> I don't know where to start. I
> would like to be able to to it all... water painting, acrylic, pen and ink
> etc.
Start with a lump of charcoal or a pencil. Forget every other media. If
you can't draw, you can't paint. Relearn your drawing skills and stick
with drawing for a long time. Once you are confident with your drawing
ability, expand your media.
> I can copy things
> fairly well, but cannot draw from memory and feel like a good artist should
> be able to do so. Am I right to believe that ?
I think you sell yourself short here. Most likely you have convinced
yourself that you cannot draw from memory. Some excersizes will help you
rediscover that ability. Do blind-contour drawings...
Take a large pad and a pencil. Close your eyes and visualize something. It
could be anything...best start with a simple object at first,
though...Focus on the object you have in mind...see it from all
sides...rotate it, flip it around, and then draw it (without worrying what
marks you are making...just keep your eyes closed and focus on your mental
object...)
> Should I go through the
> painstaking hours of art lessons and practice before I can do a simple
> painting?
If you don't practice, whether in or out of class, all you will make are
simple paintings...
Lessons are not necessary unless you feel the need for an organized
procedure and a critical environment. It could be quite beneficial for
you, but it could also be detrimental. While you harbor the fear that you
can not draw, a critical environment could inadvertently confirm your
fears, and you don't want that. First, you must convince yourself that you
CAN and WILL draw better and better, and cultivate the attitude that the
class is nothing but a class...you will take from it what is useful and
discard the rest.
> I also don't know what to draw or paint. Copying doesn't
> particularly interest me, I would like to be able to create, but how can
> you create if you cannot draw from memory.....?
Well, what are the other choices?
A. Draw from observation. If you have observed nothing, then there is
nothing for you to remember anyway. The more you observe, the more you
will retain in memory. Besides, the ability to draw from memory is not
something you should rely upon. That should be used as a back-up. Let's
say you are observing an apple in noon daylight but you want to make your
image an apple in sunrise daylight. Your memory will assist you in
visualizing the light and shadow...of course, after a while you will be
able to remember the entire apple and draw it without a subject even being
there, but if you rely solely on that memory, your apple will become
stylized and non-realistic...In fact, this is a technique I use on purpose
:) But if representation is your primary concern, you do not want to rely
on memory alone.
B. Draw from reference. Photographs. Go out and do some
photo-research...Capture some images, and work from those photos. If it
seems too much like just copying, make collages of pieces and parts of a
group of photographs.
Remember that your primary objective at this point is NOT to make
ARTWORKS...Your first goal should be to rediscover your abilities. Worry
about making 'masterpieces' later.
Draw anything and everything...shoes, trees, doorknobs, toilet paper, your
hands, a cat, whatever...and draw nothing, too...play with the pencils,
make textures, make doodles, do whatever...just get yourself comfortable
with holding that pencil, making marks, doing whatever.
It doesn't matter if what you produce at this point is 'bad' or not. We
all make seriously heinous attempts, and anyone who claims otherwise is
lying though their teeth! :) I have a tendency to destroy anything I think
is bad...but honestly I should keep them so that at least I can look back
and see where I screwed up, and better, how far I have come since the last
big stinker.
Here is the best plan for you:
Draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw,
draw, and then draw. When you get sick and tired of that, draw some more.
Then, draw some more. Then draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw,
draw, draw, draw, draw, and draw.
Finally, when it's all been drawn 100 times, start over and draw it all
again.
Hutto
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
"I paint what I think, not what I see..." - Pablo Picasso
"You're not the boss of me!..." - J. A. Hutto (Pre age 3)
http://www2.msstate.edu/~jah10 + ja...@ra.msstate.edu
Brother Alphabet
On 5 Aug 1998, Norman Strand~ wrote:
> I would recogmend avoiding drawing on newsprint, spend the extra money and get
> good paper. I use 100% cotton rag typing paper that I get at a stationary store.
> It is 8 1/2 x 11. I have some sketches that are 20 years old and still look
> good and some on newsprint that yellowed a long time ago. Boarder's books here
> locally have sketch books with good paper for about $6.00.
At the rate you should be going through pages, 100% rag will get pretty
costly. Compare: 50 sheets of 8.5x11 rag to 150 sheets of 30x40 newsprint.
Newsprint is the better buy for practice. Besides, why waste decent
archival material on practice? I like to pretend I was going to be great
enough that people in the future would want to see even my screw-ups...But
I'd rather spend the money on canvas and give posterity a much better
prize.
> I do not work for Boarder's Books and this is not the opinion of intel corp.
I think you do and I think it is. You imply that Intel Corporation shops
at Boarder's.
I can't believe you're sitting there posting ads for Boarder's Books while
Intel Corporation pays you good money to do whatever it is you do. :)
BTW, is Boarder's Books a chain store, and is it "Borders" books, or is it
a true local shop called Boarder's?
I'm calling Intel HQ and telling on you. :)
Brother Alphabet
On 5 Aug 1998, Mavarla wrote:
> Helen wrote:
> To this, I might add, asking an attractive stranger, in public, if he
> or she is an "artist's model" and giving him/her one's fine art business
> card is a great "icebreaker," hah!
I bet that works about as well as claiming to be a film producer.
Brother Alphabet
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, artcitrino wrote:
> I speak as an artist who draws and who has been working at being an artist
> for 35 years.
You've been at it 35 years and you're still "working at being" an artist?
I'd say 'forget about it' to YOU! When are you going to decide to become
an artist?
> If you are not compelled enough to just do it no matter what--you probably
> should not.
I think she might have been so compelled, hence her post.
> There are too many of us out here working our asses off.
Yet, somehow you are this intimidated by a beginner?
If your own work is so poor that you have to slam a beginner and tell her
to forget about it, I think you ought to be working off a little bit more
ass.
> You girls who get a little free time after the kids leaave and then pick
> up "art" and expect to be wonderful and acclaimed for it in about 13
> days really are silly.
I don't think she said that. I think she expressed regret for having let
her art go for 20 years and she felt frustrated that it wasn't coming back
to her so smoothly.
I live near the neighborhood from which you're coming, but it happens to
be between yours and hers. I am forced, due to a desire to eat and live
in a nice apartment, to work a regular job 8 hours a day. I seriously wish
to paint all day. Sometimes a "little free time" is quite a bit more
productive than the time spent "working your ass off" with nothing else to
do. I have to squirrel away time to work on my art...get up before the
crack of dawn, paint on lunch breaks, and then until I keel over after
work hours...The little free time I have is mostly devoted to making
pictures. Back when I was doing the starvation thing, I actually painted
LESS if you can believe that...I spent a lot of time sitting around
thinking...now, I spend whatever time I can get just making the images.
Having a little free time, especially for those who have made the ultimate
artistic sacrifice (as in give up art for 20 years in the name of
something else), is more than valuable. And who knows what Marie's case
holds. Perhaps she hasn't just suddenly found free time. Perhaps she has
decided that giving up her art was wrong and she has devoted ALL her time
to getting it back. You have no way of knowing that based upon what she
posted. If anything, you could have made more encouraging remarks and said
the same things..."It's hard to do this...it's not to be taken lightly..."
etc. Why be so harsh when you haven't even seen what sort of work she
does?
> I really hope you just take up gardening or something else. If you were
> meant to be an artist you would have been and apparently you are not.
Apparently, she isn't dead yet so how do you know what she's meant to be?
A number of highly influential modern artists were not artists until later
in life. Again, you have no idea what Marie's abilities are so you have no
credible ground to stand on.
> Drawing skills do not an artist make. SORRY.
> Rachel
If you put this crap into practice, I'd have to recommend that YOU take up
gardening or something not so difficult as that.
Drawing skills enable all representational skills...The skills alone are
not what make ART, but without the skills, even one with vision would be
unable to produce those visions in any meaningful way.
If you can't draw, you can't paint. It's as simple as that.
Sure, you can FAKE it, but you can't really DO it...Fakery will be exposed
eventually.
Brother Alphabet
On 15 Aug 1998, Andrew Werby wrote:
> One of the reason visual arts are falling into obscurity is
> that they have been eliminated from the school curriculum by people whose
> reasoning is similar to the comment above- if the students aren't going
> to be Picasso or somebody, then they are wasting their time, and if they
> are then they will be "compelled" to do it anyway.
I don't agree with this statement. I don't think visual arts are falling
into obscurity. If anything, there is a growing (although slowly)
awareness of them, especially in education. A number of increasingly
prominent theories claim art education as a useful tool for expanding the
thinking and visualization abilities of younger students, which ends up
enhancing their ability to do math and science. Many accelerated academic
systems relate a great many of their other subjects back to art as well as
using art in the contexts of non-art-specific lessons. Pop culture is also
on the upswing in terms of being aware of art/artists. Just the other
night on that show "Touched by an Angel" the story was about a dying
artist and his desire to complete one last show before he was gone...It's
a sort-of cheesy show, but the point was that they produced a story about
a painter, with the end of the show promoting national arts organizations.
> I don't think this is
> really how it works. This "compulsion" theory is a modern myth- most great
> art was created by people trying to make money.]
I also do not agree with this. I am often yanked from sleep in the middle
of the night by an image I cannot ignore...I must put that image down if I
intend to get any peace. I am frequently haunted by images that recur like
bad dreams. I see them when I sleep, I see them in daydreams, I see them
peeking out of textures on the wall...I am either driven or insane or
both. I am definitely not acting upon myths.
I have also sold virtually no artworks since 1996. Of course, I also do
not outwardly solicit my work (other than the few drawings on my web
pages), nor do I aggressively pursue representation, nor can I deny my
DESIRE to make money, but that objective certainly was not my reason for
making a picture.
Brother Alphabet
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, ClockWatcher wrote:
> It's been my observation that most beginners stubbornly try to work through
> a phase where they think they must learn how to render images with a pencil
> before they can go any further.
This should not be regarded as a "phase"...This is the alphabet you need
to memorize before you can form the words you need to speak the language.
> "If I can't draw it I can't paint it."
This is 100% true. You can fake a likeness by smearing paint into the
right places, but you can't get into the object, learn it's ins and
outs...
In classical training, students couldn't touch a paintbrush until years
into their disciplines...nor could they work with color.
> And isn't it true that most of us don't really want to mess with the
> drawing part but want to get to the color part?
And isn't it true that most people who think that way are hacks with no
talent making paintings for the freakin' county fair?
> So what happens? The budding artist
> gives up because the skill of drawing takes a long time to develop and the
> artist never quite gets to the painting stage.
No, you made a mistake...The budding "hobbyist" chickens out...The budding
"Artist" pays the dues.
Of COURSE the skill of drawing takes a long time to develop! I've been
drawing since childhood and I can STILL list 50 ways I could improve my
work. Drawing is not a step...you don't MASTER drawing and then move on to
painting...You draw all the time...There comes a point at which you can
draw well enough to paint, but that doesn't totally wipe drawing from the
equation.
If you take the lazy way out, you'll always produce inferior work.
ClockWatcher
Your message was a bit vague and somewhat acid. While you had many comments,
I'm not quite sure what your getting at.
You seem to be implying that there is only one way to achieve "art." I think
your message is learn to draw first, pay your dues, (whatever that is) then
when YOU think, or someone else thinks your ready, you can paint.
If that's so, I couldn't disagree with you more. Art is an expression of
one's thoughts and feelings via whatever medium the "artist" chooses. It
matters little the training that preceded the piece of art, the effort or
techniques that went into creating the piece.
From my point of view, what matters is the finished product. Was the artist
able to convey their thought, emotions, and feelings adequately. If so, who
cares how they arrived at this point in time?
Hutto, the world is full of people that are creative in some way and defy
all the traditional routes that you seem to espouse. Some are very
succesful, some only have one great idea and no more.
Perhaps you object to someone utilizing the title "artist" unless they've
"paid their dues." Well, all I can say is I hope you find a more positive
outlet for your energy.
I've tried my best to figure out just what you were getting at. If I'm
wrong, I'm sure you'll let me know.
Production art (Starving Artists) is the only "art" I have objection to.
Other than that, if a person takes the time to artistically define an
emotion, thought, idea, political position etc. AND does it well, who am I
AND who are YOU to tell them that their peice of art is invalid because they
didn't learn to draw well enough first, or because they didn't pay their
dues.
>If you take the lazy way out, you'll always produce inferior work.
>
>Hutto
I have to respond to the above. Your narrow minded and judgemental comment
is completely wrong. I have had numerous watercolor paintings accepted in
quality juried shows around the country. Some of the judges are nationally
known and respected. I'll be the first to admit that my drawing skills are
lacking. However I utilize the camera and projection to obtain a decent
drawing on paper.
My point is that the jury was less interested in my technique and drawing
abilities and more interested in what I was trying to convey. Your peers
prove your point of view wrong. I have had formal training in illustration
and advertising. My drawing skills were never that great, however I
definitly know how to compose, execute skillful use of color, and convey my
thoughts in a way where I would consider most, but not all, of my paintings
successful.
Chuck
Brother Alphabet wrote in message ...
Brother Alphabet
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, ClockWatcher wrote:
> Your message was a bit vague and somewhat acid. While you had many comments,
> I'm not quite sure what your getting at.
I'm quite sure you aren't.
> Other than that, if a person takes the time to artistically define an
> emotion, thought, idea, political position etc. AND does it well, who am I
> AND who are YOU to tell them that their peice of art is invalid because they
> didn't learn to draw well enough first, or because they didn't pay their
> dues.
You can't perform brain surgery just because you FEEL like doing it, or
because you have a NEW and NONTRADITIONAL way of doing it.
Art is not a frilly hobby to be toyed with by rank amateurs such as
yourself.
> >If you take the lazy way out, you'll always produce inferior work.
>
> I have to respond to the above.
Suit yourself.
> Your narrow minded and judgemental comment is completely wrong.
You're right - It was narrow-minded (focused), and it was judgmental
(morally right), but trust me, I am right.
> I have had numerous watercolor paintings accepted in
> quality juried shows around the country. Some of the judges are nationally
> known and respected.
In case you had no idea:
Having your work accepted into juried shows doesn't matter a hill of poo.
Juries are infamous for having no taste whatsoever. Most "quality" juries
couldn't spot a fraud, especially not a lamer's projector painting.
I have seen some of the worst examples of bad art slip by your "quality"
juries. If something is merely presented nicely, it stands as much chance
of making it into a show as an actual work of talent.
> I'll be the first to admit that my drawing skills are
> lacking. However I utilize the camera and projection to obtain a decent
> drawing on paper.
You're a hack poser. High school kids use artographs and slide projectors
(if they SUCK). Stick to that low road as long as you wish, but don't
encourage those concerned with actual growth and learning to join you.
You are a sorry excuse for an "artist" and I really wouldn't even grant
you the classification.
I think it's hilarious that you say on one hand that the only type of art
you don't like is "production art" when that's EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!
> My point is that the jury was less interested in my technique and drawing
> abilities and more interested in what I was trying to convey.
What you try to convey means nothing. No jury on earth could look at a
painting an glean a universal message. You are banking on ignorance on the
part of juries and your own pretense to get you by.
Don't you have a soul? Dont you feel at all guilty for perpetrating a
scam? You know you can't draw, and you admit that you NEED machinery to
make your paintings...Have you just decided to accept the fact that you
are a fake?
> Your peers
> prove your point of view wrong.
Pardon? My peers don't sit around on juries letting hack work like yours
into shows.
> I have had formal training in illustration
> and advertising.
So, why not illustrate and advertise? Or is there no way to fake those?
> My drawing skills were never that great, however I
> definitly know how to compose, execute skillful use of color, and convey my
> thoughts in a way where I would consider most, but not all, of my paintings
> successful.
They are not successful PAINTINGS, but they are successful impostors.
I repeat: If you take the lazy way out, you will ALWAYS produce inferior
Brother Alphabet
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Ron Thomas wrote:
> You can't perform brain surgery just because you FEEL like
> doing it, or
> because you have a NEW and NONTRADITIONAL way of doing it.
> What does brain surgery have to do with art? This is indeed a typical
> badcomparison.
Actually, if you were capable of properly envisioning parallels you would
see that it's a very good comparison. It compares a highly skilled
operation (requiring credentials and training) with art, which should
possess the same attributes.
> Art is not a frilly hobby to be toyed with by rank amateurs
> such as
> yourself.
>
> Well, the computer is not a frilly hobby to be toyed with by rank
> amateurs suchas yourself.
Darn. 12 years of multi-platform experience down the drain.
> Actually Hutto, you are a sorry excuse for an "artist" and I DON'T grant
> you that classification.
Oh, I was counting on your approval SO MUCH.
You have ruined my day.
> An artist sees the work and artistic qualities of
> all forms of drawing, painting, sculpture.
What's that got to do with artographed fakeries?
> You are bigoted, narrow minded, and obviously untrained in the art
> field.
Yeah. My B.F.A. was in auto mechanics.
How, exactly, is despising the work of fakers "bigoted"? Have you looked
"bigot" up in your gas-station copy of websters overly-abrigded lately?
I have never claimed to be anything but narrow minded (focused). Being
"open-minded" would make me a tool-shed like you.
> You may be able to
> paint quite well, but if your art contains any quality of your attitude,
> that art would be considered low level.
Considered by who? You? Why would I care what a velvet-elvis owner like
you thinks of my art? Are you mad just because I don't use an artograph?
I MAKE images (not transfer images), and that's about it.
I save my brow-beatings for guys like you.
> "You're not the boss of me!...." - J. A. Hutto (Pre age 3)"Now that .sig
> gives all us mature adults a good indication of Hutto's problem. He was
> an arrogant little shit before he was 3 and he still is.....
"Mature adults" don't tend to make fun of people's .sigs, or is that the
new thing now?
BTW, it's only arrogance if you can't back it up.
It's really freaky how you know all this about me. Were you that pervert
in the window all those years?
Andrew Werby
Brother Alphabet <ja...@isis.msstate.edu> wrote:
> On 15 Aug 1998, Andrew Werby wrote:
>
> > One of the reason visual arts are falling into obscurity is
> > that they have been eliminated from the school curriculum by people whose
> > reasoning is similar to the comment above- if the students aren't going
> > to be Picasso or somebody, then they are wasting their time, and if they
> > are then they will be "compelled" to do it anyway.
>
> I don't agree with this statement. I don't think visual arts are falling
> into obscurity. If anything, there is a growing (although slowly)
> awareness of them, especially in education. A number of increasingly
> prominent theories claim art education as a useful tool for expanding the
> thinking and visualization abilities of younger students, which ends up
> enhancing their ability to do math and science. Many accelerated academic
> systems relate a great many of their other subjects back to art as well as
> using art in the contexts of non-art-specific lessons.
[I wish I was wrong about this, but in spite of what the theorists say,
art is still being withdrawn from the classrooms of America. In order
to make a living, art teachers increasingly must migrate from school
to school, since fewer schools are willing to support a full-time art
teacher. Maybe Mississippi is more fortunate in this regard than
California- I'd like to hear there was someplace where elementary art
education is on the rise.]
Pop culture is also
> on the upswing in terms of being aware of art/artists. Just the other
> night on that show "Touched by an Angel" the story was about a dying
> artist and his desire to complete one last show before he was gone...It's
> a sort-of cheesy show, but the point was that they produced a story about
> a painter, with the end of the show promoting national arts organizations.
[There are programs on TV about tigers too, but that doesn't mean
they aren't going extinct. As much as I'd like to believe that
America is about to start honoring and supporting its artists, I
don't see a lot of evidence to justify that conclusion- where are
the "angels" now that we need them?]
>
> > I don't think this is
> > really how it works. This "compulsion" theory is a modern myth- most great
> > art was created by people trying to make money.]
>
> I also do not agree with this. I am often yanked from sleep in the middle
> of the night by an image I cannot ignore...I must put that image down if I
> intend to get any peace. I am frequently haunted by images that recur like
> bad dreams. I see them when I sleep, I see them in daydreams, I see them
> peeking out of textures on the wall...I am either driven or insane or
> both. I am definitely not acting upon myths.
>
> I have also sold virtually no artworks since 1996. Of course, I also do
> not outwardly solicit my work (other than the few drawings on my web
> pages), nor do I aggressively pursue representation, nor can I deny my
> DESIRE to make money, but that objective certainly was not my reason for
> making a picture.
>
> Hutto
[You weren't reading carefully- I said "most", not "all", and I said
"great"- does that describe the paintings you're making in your spare
time? (I really hope it does, honestly.) Unfortunately, compulsion
alone is not enough to foster the creation of great art- it takes time,
money and a measure of societal support. The great artform of our
times is the movie, which gets these things. Visual arts do not, and
the results speak for themselves. Individuals swimming upstream against
the tides of historical circumstance rarely get the opportunity to achieve
greatness. I'm blaming them for this, it's just the way things are. The
reason myths are popular is because they help us believe things we wish
were so, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.]
ClockWatcher
>It's really freaky how you know all this about me. Were you that pervert
>in the window all those years?
>Hutto
Hutto:
It's funny how you made a number of accusations, and assumptions about me on
reading only one message. Can you back up all your accusations you made
about me? Perhaps you were the pervert hanging about my window for all those
years.
The anonymity of the internet gives you a false bravado. Rather than one who
speaks on authority you come across as one who is bitter and needs to lash
out to satisfy some deficit in your ego.
Adios Hutto, time to ignore you. You seek to destroy instead of build. You
can continue to wallow in your bitterness for as long as you need to.
Chuck
DFRussell
>[I wish I was wrong about this, but in spite of what the theorists say,
>art is still being withdrawn from the classrooms of America. In order
>to make a living, art teachers increasingly must migrate from school
>to school, since fewer schools are willing to support a full-time art
>teacher.
The assumption you're making is that that is a *bad* thing for art...
That remains to be seen.
>
> Pop culture is also
>> on the upswing in terms of being aware of art/artists. Just the other
>> night on that show "Touched by an Angel" the story was about a dying
>> artist and his desire to complete one last show before he was gone...It's
>> a sort-of cheesy show, but the point was that they produced a story about
>> a painter, with the end of the show promoting national arts organizations.
>
>[There are programs on TV about tigers too, but that doesn't mean
>they aren't going extinct. As much as I'd like to believe that
>America is about to start honoring and supporting its artists,
Why should they?
When many "artists" don't "honor and support" their clients...
Brother Alphabet
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, ClockWatcher wrote:
> Hutto:
>
> It's funny how you made a number of accusations, and assumptions about me on
> reading only one message.
It doesn't seem like you find it funny, actually.
Seems like it annoys you.
> Can you back up all your accusations you made
> about me?
Well, of course not.
I haven't seen any of your work, nor do I know who you are personally.
I was hard pressed to avoid being completely stumped by your remarks
against ME for goodness' sake.
> Perhaps you were the pervert hanging about my window for all those
> years.
I usually use binoculars...It was probably a different pervert.
> The anonymity of the internet gives you a false bravado.
I'll have to disagree here. Ask anyone who knows me. I'd have said the
same things to your face.
However, in my own defense, I'm not really such a bastard, I just like to
argue, even if it's pointless B.S...If you'd like to have an actually
meaningful discussion sometime, feel free to give it a go. I think you'll
find your impression of *me personally* was incorrect.
> Rather than one who speaks on authority you come across as one who is
> bitter and needs to lash out to satisfy some deficit in your ego.
How on earth would making these ridiculous arguments boost my ego?!
I speak on as much authority as the next guy. I have nothing to be bitter
over and I have no need to feel superior, I just like to make remarks and
see what happens.
> Adios Hutto, time to ignore you. You seek to destroy instead of build. You
> can continue to wallow in your bitterness for as long as you need to.
OK, thanks. You are too kind. :)
I think you are placing too much weight on things...
Besides, destruction is often a part of the building process...
If you did not have it before, you now have a stern defense of your
position which does not cave in even under a barrage of nonsense.
What have I destroyed?
Again, I am not at all bitter about anything...except maybe that pesky
1992 presidential election.