QUESTION-Commission Art
Roberto Allende
To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and while I
have found very talented art, I can’t RELATE to much of it.
In any event, I want to spend a few years learning about art but eventually,
I want to commission works of art.
The Issue:
I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything from
the canvass to the brand of oils to be used—mostly because I want the work
to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
I also want to include stuff like, to authenticate the work, the artist
agrees to be photographed with the art?
Questions:
Is it appropriate to approach an artist with guidelines and standards in
hand?
Are there standard Memorandums of Understanding or contracts for commission
art?
How should we agree on a price? What’s a fair price for the artist?
Does anyone know any good web sites for learning about art?
Does anyone have any recommendation regarding specifications? I.e., Don’t
use brands X or Y. Use brands A or B.
Charles Eicher
>
>Hello Everyone:
>
>To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and while I
>have found very talented art, I can’t RELATE to much of it.
>
>In any event, I want to spend a few years learning about art but eventually,
>I want to commission works of art.
In other words, you don't LIKE the paintings you see, so you want someone to
paint something you like. It doesn't work that way.
>The Issue:
>
>I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything from
>the canvass to the brand of oils to be used—mostly because I want the work
>to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
No artist can guarantee the longevity of an oil painting. They can only pay
attention to archival issues, and do the best they can. But I will make you one
guarantee: if you go around to artists with a document telling them precisely
how they are supposed to do their work, you will get absolutely nowhere.
>I also want to include stuff like, to authenticate the work, the artist
>agrees to be photographed with the art?
I don't see any problems with asking an artist for any tangible proof of
authenticity (i.e. a certificate), that is common practice. They might even like
having their picture taken.
>
>Questions:
>
>Is it appropriate to approach an artist with guidelines and standards in
>hand?
No. If you tried that with me, I'd laugh profusely, and then tell you to get the
HELL out of my studio.
What makes you think that you know more about art materials than an artist? If
you're so concerned, you might POLITELY inquire about how the artist feels about
archival issues. And you might even POLITELY suggest you'd be willing to pay
extra if the artist used superior materials. And then you can choose to use this
artist's services, or look for another. And when you select one, you have to
leave it up to the artist.
>Are there standard Memorandums of Understanding or contracts for commission
>art?
You can put anything you want in a contract. And the artist is equally free to
laugh and walk away without signing it.
>How should we agree on a price? What’s a fair price for the artist?
Whatever the market will bear.
>Does anyone know any good web sites for learning about art?
Try the library. Spend a LOT of time there, you have a lot to learn.
>Does anyone have any recommendation regarding specifications? I.e., Don’t
>use brands X or Y. Use brands A or B.
It has relatively little to do with one brand over another. I could easily paint
a work with the most expensive, superior archival materials and it could fall
apart in a few months if I used improper technique, or if it was displayed in
improper conditions. Paintings don't come with a warranty. I know many artists
who are willing to repair their works, but it will cost you extra money.
Marge Inal
>I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything from
>the canvass to the brand of oils to be used—mostly because I want the work
>to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
I would say to you 'good luck' getting some artist to
go along with your notions. Why in the world would you,
an admitted unversed novice, want to set standards for any artist?
The normal approach is to commission an artist to do
something for you because you either like the work of
that artist or see some 'investment' potential in the
work.
I wouldn't give you the time of day if you came to me
with a 'formula' for producing something to suit you.
My standard commission fee is 1/2 down before I even
touch the canvas. The other half is to be paid upon
delivery of the work and acceptance by the client.
While I've never had anyone reject a finished work,
if that were to happen I have always made it clear that
the original down payment was non-refundable, although
I might have had a change of heart if I had failed
miserably in the commission.
It's not unheard of for someone to commission a specific
subject matter to be done by the artist in that artist's
particular style and medium. That's how portraits are
commissioned, obviously.
M.
to this specific art commission?
In creating a sound track, the musician is asked to be original and
creative within certain parameters given by the director...
Stephen Morgana
suggestions during the actual painting sessions, artists really like
this kind of help. There are so many decisions that need to be made
that effect the painting, should the brush strokes go this way or THAT
way and such, its best to have that all spelled out in the contract.
;-)
But seriously wouldnt it be better to let the artist choose what tools
and materials to use to complete your painting?
--
Stephen
http://homepages.go.com/~scm2000
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Stephen Morgana
"M." <bra...@direct.net> wrote:
> Would composing music for a film be a good comparison
> to this specific art commission?
> In creating a sound track, the musician is asked to be original and
> creative within certain parameters given by the director...
>
What is the musical analogy for selecting the canvas and brand of paint
to use?
M.
>In article <37CDE0...@direct.net>,
> "M." <bra...@direct.net> wrote:
>> Would composing music for a film be a good comparison
>> to this specific art commission?
>> In creating a sound track, the musician is asked to be original and
>> creative within certain parameters given by the director...
>>
>
>What is the musical analogy for selecting the canvas and brand of paint
>to use?
Making sure the musicians had the very best instruments? sound studio?
Erik A. Mattila
A good jumping off place for you would be a good library (perhaps a VERY good
library) and see if you can find some of the old Italian Renaissance contracts
that have survived. There are about half a dozen or so and they're very
interesting to read. I've read about one between a church (or monestery, I
forget which) and Fra Lippo Lippi. It was the sort of contract that explicitly
specifies the sorts of criteria you are contemplating. The strike-outs and
margin notes on this document indicate that Lapus Lazuli, a prized blue
pigment, was a very contentious issue in the contract negotiations. Lapus was
extremely expensive in the 15th century (or was it the 16th?) and the client
wanted Lippo Lippi to purchase the pigment out of his commission, but the
artist said no, "if you want Lapus you'll have to pay for it on your own" (a
time plus material contract position). In this case the artist won out -- but
other artists of the day would have agreed to the pay-cut, since the blue was
so highly valued and certainly prestigeous. Sort of a career move, like
landing a really important plumbing contract. By the way, it's is indicated in
the historical records that some of these contracts didn't work out because of
the negotiations. Just think of the great works of art that never came to be
because of cheapskate churchmen or money-grubbing artists!
Now whether or not you could translate that into 20th century (or 21st)
negotiations is another matter. The social attitudes about art and artists has
dramatically change in the last 500 years. 500 years ago the idea of a
tradesman or guildsman was strongly associated with artists, and today artists
have more or less successfully convinced society that are genius and therefore
above contract negotiations.
Anyay, it's an interesting idea. I suppose you will always be able to find
some artist to go for it. I do a lot of commercial art, which seems closer to
the Renaissance model in the context of this discussion. I have to deliver
what the client wants, when they want it, and meet their quality criteria on a
regular basis. It gets frustrating from time to time, but generally there is
no problem with this kind of procedure. But if I was dependent on the muse to
produce, it certainly wouldn't work out at all.
Good luck with your pursuits,
Erik Mattila
Roberto Allende wrote:
> Hello Everyone:
>
> To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and while I
> have found very talented art, I can’t RELATE to much of it.
>
> In any event, I want to spend a few years learning about art but eventually,
> I want to commission works of art.
>
> The Issue:
>
> I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything from
> the canvass to the brand of oils to be used—mostly because I want the work
> to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
>
> I also want to include stuff like, to authenticate the work, the artist
> agrees to be photographed with the art?
>
> Questions:
>
> Is it appropriate to approach an artist with guidelines and standards in
> hand?
>
> Are there standard Memorandums of Understanding or contracts for commission
> art?
>
> How should we agree on a price? What’s a fair price for the artist?
>
> Does anyone know any good web sites for learning about art?
burnin...@my-deja.com
"Roberto Allende" <Alle...@gte.net> wrote:
> Hello Everyone:
>
> To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and
while I
Such is life.
>
> In any event, I want to spend a few years learning about art but
eventually,
> I want to commission works of art.
>
> The Issue:
>
> I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything
from
> the canvass to the brand of oils to be used-mostly because I want the
work
> to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
Portrait of Dorian Grey?
>
> I also want to include stuff like, to authenticate the work, the
artist
> agrees to be photographed with the art?
>
> Questions:
>
> Is it appropriate to approach an artist with guidelines and standards
in
> hand?
You can always ask. Chances are high that many would send you packing.
Most people that are decent have their own preferences. Personally,
I'd find the implied message in your request insulting.
>
> Are there standard Memorandums of Understanding or contracts for
commission
> art?
If it's a commissioned, it's "for hire". You own it. Period.
> How should we agree on a price?
That is normally an issue resolved between artist and patron.
> What?s a fair price for the artist?
The artist will tell you. You have two choices: pay it or not.
> Does anyone know any good web sites for learning about art?
>
> Does anyone have any recommendation regarding specifications? I.e.,
Don?t
> use brands X or Y. Use brands A or B.
Is this a troll?
If not, you sound like you'd be the client from hell.
The paint and canvas are none of your business. If you found an
artist that was good enough to do what you want, chances are high
that he wouldn't be using shit for materials and would probably
know at least as much about it as do you.
Marge Inal
>Anyay, it's an interesting idea. I suppose you will always be able to find
>some artist to go for it. I do a lot of commercial art, which seems closer to
>the Renaissance model in the context of this discussion. I have to deliver
>what the client wants, when they want it, and meet their quality criteria on a
>regular basis.
I think that's an excellent suggestion for the person
who began this thread -- start a commercial art-producing
business! I know of one sculptor who lives in my town
who has a 'factory' that has a regular assembly line.
He hires other local artists to mass produce his 'sculptures'
to his specifications and then advertises himself in all
the fine art and collectors and decorator magazines in
the USA. Not unlike the way Mark Kostabi, Andy Warhol and
other artists of 'reknown' have worked...
One could use their capital to set up an art-producing
enterprise like Kostabi did and then sign the final
works with their own name, thereby becoming another
famous artist themself...
Roberto Allende
universities but I did not think about looking for 15th Century contracts.
I would never infringe upon an artist’s creativity but I will definitely
develop guidelines and specifications—just to avoid some of the unhappy
people who have already posted silly remarks. They don’t understand that
many clients don’t have the time to study art, and therefore, are not
“experts.” They want society to appreciate their works but they do not
invest any time understanding a client. If you happen to have a web page,
please let me know.
Erik A. Mattila wrote in message <37CE1E58...@tomatoweb.com>...
Andrew Werby
> Hello Everyone:
>
> To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and while I
> have found very talented art, I can’t RELATE to much of it.
[Why is this? What would it take for you to achieve this relationship?]
>
> In any event, I want to spend a few years learning about art but eventually,
> I want to commission works of art.
[For some particular reason? Is this a portrait of yourself you have in mind,
or of a relative? For artists willing to work on a commission basis (many
are not) check the Art and Craft Referral Network at http://unitedartworks.com/]
>
> The Issue:
>
> I want to develop guidelines and standards. I want to spec everything from
> the canvass to the brand of oils to be used—mostly because I want the work
> to remain in good condition for hundreds of years.
[Wanting to have the piece be archival is a reasonable wish, but is this going
to ensure that you "relate" to it, or is this a separate specification?]
>
> I also want to include stuff like, to authenticate the work, the artist
> agrees to be photographed with the art?
[Make sure you use archival processing, if you want these photos to last the
centuries.]
>
> Questions:
>
> Is it appropriate to approach an artist with guidelines and standards in
> hand?
[Some artists will be more accepting of this than others. For a painting, it
would probably be sufficient to specify Artists colors of light-fastness grade
One according to the ASTM, and let the artist use the brand he or she is
familiar with.]
>
> Are there standard Memorandums of Understanding or contracts for commission
> art?
[There are. Look for Tad Crawford's book: "Business and Legal Forms for Fine
Artists." Allworth Press, NY, isbn 0-927629-01-1.]
>
> How should we agree on a price? What’s a fair price for the artist?
[This depends on the artist, and what you want done.]
>
> Does anyone know any good web sites for learning about art?
[What is it you wish to learn?]
>
> Does anyone have any recommendation regarding specifications? I.e., Don’t
> use brands X or Y. Use brands A or B.
[If you're talking about oil colors, each artist has a separate opinion.
In general,
you want to avoid Student colors in favor of Artist colors. Some artists
still mix
their own paints from scratch. Art is a big field, and it includes other things
besides oil paintings. Are these what you're primarily interested in, or
is it all
art media you wish to investigate and specify?]
Andrew Werby
UNITED ARTWORKS- Sculpture, Jewelry, and other art stuff
http://unitedartworks.com
http://www.computersculpture.com for 3d design tools
Charles Eicher
>
>I'm curious, Andrew. Is the "Bay Area Lawyers for Artists" group still
>functional? (It was led by Seamus Sandison(?) Esq., as I recall). I attended a
>presentation in Eureka by this group around 1979 -- really terrific. I also
>still
>have a pile of their handouts, which includes a sample of "The Projanksky
>Contract"
>which is required to make a claim under the California Resale Royalties Act.
yeah, I've got some of those handouts too, I had some contact with them about 5
years ago or more. The Bay area group worked in conjunction with an LA group,
they were calling themselves "California Lawyers for the Arts."
>There's another thing I'm curious about - is the Royalties Act ever used? I've
>known several artist in California who have never heard of it, and view the
>signing
>of a lengthy contract at the point of sale to be awkward and counterproductive
>(you
>know, it may scare the patron off).
I'm curious too, if anyone ever collected. I know plenty of artists are using
the California Resale Contract.
>I thought maybe the BSLA had demised, actually, since the Reagan Administration
>more or less hammered in the cork on the funding sources for community legal
>services.
Yeah, last I heard, they were running a series of seminars on copyrights and
other art-related legal issues. It was pretty expensive to attend, they must
have been really hard up for money. I couldn't afford it.
Erik A. Mattila
discover contract information by studying art history, since a tremendous amount
of the Art (with a capital 'A') we know was produced under contract conditions --
often to the displeasure of the artist.
The idea of Art factories is pretty old - Holbein, Cranach, Rubens etc. In the
printmaking tradition, nearly all was accomplished by a collective enterprise
involving artists, apprentices, carpenters (who carved the designs of the artist
in wood) and so on. The bulk of this work was done by contract in a commercial
environment, where the client was very demanding. Greek vases, for that matter,
were commercial products made in factories. Personally, I can find nothing wrong
with the 'art factory' approach -- it is just as 'art historical' as blocking your
panel in with Albertian perspective.
Erik Mattila
Erik A. Mattila
functional? (It was led by Seamus Sandison(?) Esq., as I recall). I attended a
presentation in Eureka by this group around 1979 -- really terrific. I also still
have a pile of their handouts, which includes a sample of "The Projanksky Contract"
which is required to make a claim under the California Resale Royalties Act.
known several artist in California who have never heard of it, and view the signing
of a lengthy contract at the point of sale to be awkward and counterproductive (you
know, it may scare the patron off).
I thought maybe the BSLA had demised, actually, since the Reagan Administration
more or less hammered in the cork on the funding sources for community legal
services.
Erik Mattila
Peter Nelson
Charles Eicher wrote in message <7qkbc4$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
>In article <Hrgz3.799$Am.2...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Roberto says...
>>
>>Hello Everyone:
>>
>>To make a long story short, I have been to a few art galleries and while I
>>have found very talented art, I can’t RELATE to much of it.
>>
eventually,
>>I want to commission works of art.
>
to
>paint something you like. It doesn't work that way.
Nonsense! Of course it works that way. Some
of the greatest works of art and music ever made were
done on commission to satisfy the desires of the patron
---peter
Keren Topper
art is for sale - this is not new, it has always been like that, it's just a
romantic idea about art that it's made this way.
keren.