Painting over a painting?
Thea Barbato
the group occasionally, but don't lurk that much, so may have missed it.
I have a regular canvas, about 24x20, that has already been painted on by
someone else. Because I'm not fond of the painting, I would like to create
a new painting over it. Is there something I need to do before beginning
the second painting, in terms of prep work or can I just go ahead as if it
were a blank canvas? The first painting is not applied heavily and the
surface is relatively smooth.
Secondly, I have some oils that were given to me - they are the Winton brand
and also Windsor and Newton. From what I can determine, both brands are
pretty good. Do you concur? Is one better than the other, or should I be
looking at something like Rembrandt?
Thanks much in advance for any advice! Can you tell I'm a novice at this
oil painting thing : - )? But I love it!!
T.
Bob C
>
> Secondly, I have some oils that were given to me - they are the Winton brand
> and also Windsor and Newton. From what I can determine, both brands are
> pretty good. Do you concur? Is one better than the other, or should I be
> looking at something like Rembrandt?
>
Winton is Winsor and Newton's student grade line of paints. You'll find
some people who insist on principle that this makes it trash, but in
reality it's perfectly acceptable for many types of painting. You may
not be happy with the results if you're using a traditional glazing
technique and it'll require the use of mediums to enhance flow if you're
trying to paint fine details. Otherwise it should be fine for you.
W&N Artist Oil Colors is their professional line of paints. It's not the
absolute best you can buy, but it's good enough that anyone who has to
ask isn't going to benefit from whatever slight improvement the very
best ones give you. I will say, however, that I haven't been all too
happy with the consistency of the last few tubes I bought from them and
so now I usually buy Gamblin.
- Bob C.
Curlycue
says...
>W&N Artist Oil Colors is their professional line of paints... I will say,
however, that I haven't been all too
>happy with the consistency of the last few tubes I bought from them and
>so now I usually buy Gamblin.
>
>- Bob C.
It's my understanding that W&N is just one of the old
line paint companies now "Made in China."
NightMist
Since you are working in oil you will probably want to scuff the
surface up with some sandpaper before you re-prime the surface. That
will help whatever you go over it with to stick well.
Unless the painting is at least a couple of years old you would be
best off to cover it with an oil based primer rather than an acrylic
gesso. Oils can take a very very long time to dry completely, and oil
and water do not mix. You don't know what kinds of mediums they used
in the original painting or anything do you?
So far as Windsor and Newton, I am not fond of their paints or natural
brushes. Their oils are better than their acrylics, but that is not
saying much. YMMV
So long as you have them for free, try them out on an bit of board or
something and see how they do for you. If you take to painting you
will probably want to try different things and find what you like
best. It doesn't all have to be done in a minute, especially with
oils.
Barbara
--
The wolf that understands fire has much to eat.
Thea Barbato
"NightMist" <night...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:452e7f9e...@news.madbbs.com...
Thanks much for all the input on the paints' quality and the painted canvas.
Bob C. mentioned Gamblin - is that the 'Cadillac' (or in today's upgrade
world, 'Mercedes' : - ) of oil paints? I'm currently unemployed and not
able to buy the best of the best, but obviously want to have a quality
product on my canvas. If there's a middle road that is acceptable in terms
of oil paint quality, then that would probably work best for me right now,
being the novice that I am, and not flush with $$.
Re the pre-painted canvas, it is definitely more than two years old - in
fact, is probably closer to six or seven years old. Not sure about the
medium but my somewhat less than educated guess would be that it's
definitely oil. Do I still need to prime it or can I just 'rough' it up a
bit so the next painting will adhere to it. I do have some Gesso - is it ok
to cover it with that?
Thanks again - I know it can be frustrating for seasoned artists/painters to
patiently answer questions that are bordering on 'Duh!' for a newby like
myself, so I appreciate it!!
(Oh and yes, so far, I'm lovin' this painting thing!)
T.
Bob C
>
> Thanks much for all the input on the paints' quality and the painted canvas.
> Bob C. mentioned Gamblin - is that the 'Cadillac' (or in today's upgrade
> world, 'Mercedes' : - ) of oil paints? I'm currently unemployed and not
> able to buy the best of the best, but obviously want to have a quality
> product on my canvas. If there's a middle road that is acceptable in terms
> of oil paint quality, then that would probably work best for me right now,
> being the novice that I am, and not flush with $$.
>
I think I'd be more likely to call it the Honda Accord of paints. It's
not cheap, but it's a good buy for the quality and is definitely better
than the student grade. The best painter I know of who uses only the
best materials uses only Old Holland paint, which costs about 50% more
than Gamblin, W&N Artist Oils and other comparable brands.
As I mentioned before, a decent quality student grade paint (eg. Winton,
Van Gogh, Grumbacher Pre-Tested) is suitable for many purposes,
particularly for a novice. As a novice, more expensive paints aren't
likely to make your colors any brighter - it's the knowledge of how to
use color and how to use the paints which will eventually do that.
Depending on your style of painting, expensive paint could actually
become more of a detriment than a benefit if you find yourself rationing
the paint on your palette because you're worried about the cost.
If you're going to be painting small and using transparent glazes, then
get some of the more expensive stuff. If you're going to be painting big
and coarsely brushing it on, the get big tubes of the student grade and
have some fun with it.
- Bob C.
Curlycue
tbar...@carolina.rr.com says...
>If there's a middle road that is acceptable in terms
>of oil paint quality...
I wouldn't call UTRECHT's "professional" grade "middle of
the road" but they are definitely reasonably priced
and competitive with other "professional" brands.
Assuming you live in N. Amer. they are also available
by mail order.
Note: They also make a "student" grade, which is
cheaper yet.
Note-2: Utrecht manufactures their own paints! But
they also have good prices on other popular brands of paint.
Thea Barbato
"Bob C" <ne...@bobcantor.com> wrote in message
news:qYSdncQPa-w0XLPY...@rcn.net...
Great suggestions, all. I actually do have some of the Grumbacher
Pre-Tested as well. I'm not doing really small canvases - more along the
lines of 22x30 or 20x24 size - thereabouts. Since I am just starting out,
then using the paint I already have makes a lot of sense (especially since I
also have *alot* of it : - ). Later, as I become more accomplished, I'll
look into the pricier brands, although the price you mentioned for something
such as Old Holland doesn't seem to be as high as I might have thought.
Thanks much,
T.
Thea Barbato
"Curlycue" <cut...@dontemailme.com> wrote in message
news:b1b3e$452ec483$48102f3d$15...@ALLTEL.NET...
Thanks! While looking at my 'inventory' earlier this afternoon, I actually
saw that I have at least one tube of Utrecht's. So, it seems that between
that brand, the W&N, the Winton, and the Grumbacher tubes I have, I am more
than ready to paint with abandon!!
Thanks again to all who responded - if I have other inquiries (quite likely
: - ), I'll be back!
T.
NightMist
<tbar...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>Thanks much for all the input on the paints' quality and the painted canvas.
>Bob C. mentioned Gamblin - is that the 'Cadillac' (or in today's upgrade
>world, 'Mercedes' : - ) of oil paints? I'm currently unemployed and not
>able to buy the best of the best, but obviously want to have a quality
>product on my canvas. If there's a middle road that is acceptable in terms
>of oil paint quality, then that would probably work best for me right now,
>being the novice that I am, and not flush with $$.
Gamblin is probably around a midgrade quality.
I've just gotten my studio back after some years of doing without
permanently dedicated space, so I can actually work in oil again on a
regular basis. I'm going to be doing some of my own testing and
trying and reading of reviews. Back when I could use oils regularly,
I was a Blockx devotee. I probably shall still prefer them for some
colors, especially whites and light colors. Years of working in
acrylic has made me appreciate some colors that I wouldn't have
considered before, so I shall definitely be investigating similar
colors in oil. I am also no longer at the mercy of what the local (or
at least within a couple hundred miles) shops carry.
The rule of thumb I used to follow is you can get away with lesser
quality to an extent with black and some of the earth darker darks,
but not with white or the lighter lights. This may still be true, but
since I will now have greater access to art supply shops via the
internet I won't have to follow it unless my purse is awfully empty.
>
>Re the pre-painted canvas, it is definitely more than two years old - in
>fact, is probably closer to six or seven years old. Not sure about the
>medium but my somewhat less than educated guess would be that it's
>definitely oil. Do I still need to prime it or can I just 'rough' it up a
>bit so the next painting will adhere to it. I do have some Gesso - is it ok
>to cover it with that?
If it is thinly painted and more than a couple of years old you can
probably use an acrylic gesso over it. Just remember you don't want a
completely smooth surface when you start to paint. The gesso isn't
absolutely neccesary, but IMHO it is a whole lot easier to do a fresh
painting on a fresh surface.
>
>(Oh and yes, so far, I'm lovin' this painting thing!)
>
Go you! :)
Thea Barbato
Thanks, Barbara! One other question and then I promise I'll leave you guys
alone . . . well, probably not, but hopefully for the rest of the day, at
least!
Let's say I go ahead and use my W&N, and Winton colors since I am just
beginning, and also hate to waste anything that seems perfectly good (some
of these tubes are brand new). And let's say, I create one or two or more
paintings that I really love - they look great in pretty much every way
(that would, of course, be primarily my opinion since art is so highly
subjective : - ), the color's are good, etc., etc. Then let's further say
that someone might want to buy one of those paintings - (lovely thought,
that). Due to the lesser quality of these paints, will the paintings
eventually, over time, flake or fade or do some other equally strange and
undesirable thing due to the quality (or lack thereof)? Or is the quality
mostly perceived in the initial color intensity, smooth application, etc.,
and once it's dry on the canvas, it will adhere and stay just as if it were
higher priced brands?
Oh, and re the already painted canvas, yes, it appears to be a fairly thin
layer of paint on it. If it's not crucial to Gesso it, then I may just lay
a background of a light oil color and work from there on the next painting.
If the Gesso helps to keep the old paint from bleeding through (would that
even happen?), then I can Gesso it. I do happen to have a jar of Ultrecht
Gesso that I got with my paints (all of these supplies came from a friend
whose artist mother died a couple of years ago and she wanted to find
another artist who would use them). I have no idea how old it is and there
is a small pool of oil at the top. Says it can be thinned with water.
Should I thin some out, and then just apply with a brush as I would paints?
(I know, another duh? question, very likely : - ).
Thanks!
T.
Curlycue
tbar...@carolina.rr.com says...
>Let's say I go ahead and use my W&N, and Winton colors since I am just
>beginning,
As the contemporary slogan goes - "Just Do It!"
It's impossible to say that cheap paints will remain as archival as
more expensive ones but knowing that the cheap paints rely more
heavily on fugitive dyes rather than finely ground inert pigments
is just one of the factors influencing eventual problems.
>If the Gesso helps to keep the old paint from bleeding through
The old paint is very likely fully oxidized and won't bleed
through. But I'd not recommend using an acrylic gesso over
on old oil painting. If you need a white ground to begin with,
or a tone ground, simply brush on a layer of oil paint - a
white with whatever color you wish to mix with it for toning
(or tinting).
>I do happen to have a jar of Ultrecht
>Gesso ... there
>is a small pool of oil at the top. Says it can be thinned with water.
That "oil" is acrylic medium that has separated due to the
age of the gesso. Just be sure and mix it back in thoroughly
before using and it should be fine. But again, it is BAD
PRACTICE to apply a water-based paint over a previously applied
oil layer.
NightMist
<tbar...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>Let's say I go ahead and use my W&N, and Winton colors since I am just
>beginning, and also hate to waste anything that seems perfectly good (some
>of these tubes are brand new). And let's say, I create one or two or more
>paintings that I really love - they look great in pretty much every way
>(that would, of course, be primarily my opinion since art is so highly
>subjective : - ), the color's are good, etc., etc. Then let's further say
>that someone might want to buy one of those paintings - (lovely thought,
>that). Due to the lesser quality of these paints, will the paintings
>eventually, over time, flake or fade or do some other equally strange and
>undesirable thing due to the quality (or lack thereof)? Or is the quality
>mostly perceived in the initial color intensity, smooth application, etc.,
>and once it's dry on the canvas, it will adhere and stay just as if it were
>higher priced brands?
The archival qualities of W&N oils in general is something I am not up
on 100%.
Usually one looks primarily at the pigments to determine such things.
Though fillers and whatnot would have some effect. Fillers are the
big difference between top grade and lower grade paints generally
speaking. The best grade paints are pigment and carrier, the lower
grades have filler in them.
here is the W&N website, you may find some useful info there:
>
>Oh, and re the already painted canvas, yes, it appears to be a fairly thin
>layer of paint on it. If it's not crucial to Gesso it, then I may just lay
>a background of a light oil color and work from there on the next painting.
>If the Gesso helps to keep the old paint from bleeding through (would that
>even happen?), then I can Gesso it. I do happen to have a jar of Ultrecht
>Gesso that I got with my paints (all of these supplies came from a friend
>whose artist mother died a couple of years ago and she wanted to find
>another artist who would use them). I have no idea how old it is and there
>is a small pool of oil at the top. Says it can be thinned with water.
>Should I thin some out, and then just apply with a brush as I would paints?
>(I know, another duh? question, very likely : - ).
See that is the tricky bit about painting over someone else's work,
you don't really know what you are painting over. Completely dry oils
should be pretty stable chemically speaking, so that probably won't be
a problem.
But, any number of problems could arise years down the road from
things the previous artist did or did not do. How the canvas was
prepared before whoever even started painting being primary on the
list of potential problems. Flaking paint, such as you mentioned
previously, is often a result of how the canvas was prepared.
Me personally, I would gesso the hell out of it. Lap right around to
raw canvas if any is showing. A good number of other people would
give it a coat of white paint and go from there. Just starting
painting over it is doable as well. A matter of taste, technique, and
how worried about the previously painted surface you are.
If the gesso you have can be thinned with water, it is acrylic and
will cover a multitude of sins.
As you are covering an oil painting with it, I would not thin it
unless it was too thick to go on, in which case shopping for gesso
might be a good notion. Brushing it on is fine. As you progress you
may find other application methods that you prefer.
Acrylic gesso actually has a reasonable shelf life. So long as it is
smooth after stirring it should be fine.
Thea Barbato
> the other painting then and that should suffice! Re the older paints, I'm
> basically just painting for myself right now - no commissioned work
> (darn!), so they should be fine to just play/experiment with.
Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts! Quite helpful!
T.
>
Thea Barbato
Thanks, Barbara. I appreciate the information greatly! I'll check the W&N
website.
Also, I had planned to just paint over the old painting but now you've
raised the gesso issue again. If the gesso is acrylic based, is it ok to
put it over (and under) oil? Curleycue seemed to think not and leaned
toward just painting over it. Do they make an oil gesso? If I do the
painting with the foreknowledge that it is just for me very likely, so the
future preservation of said painting is not a huge issue, then would it
really matter so much whether I gesso'ed it or covered with white or similar
oil paint? If it's six of one and half dozen of another, then I'll just
toss a coin : - )!
Sorry to be tedious and my questions are probably getting rather picayune
anyway.
Thanks again!
T.
NightMist
If the previous painting is completely dry regessoing is not a
problem.
If it is not completely dry putting acrylic gesso over it would be a
disaster.
I am rather anal about surface prep, so regessoing would be my choice.
Especially since you don't know what is under the current painting,
but are reasonably certain it is completely dry.
I am certain there must be oil gessos out there.
I have never bought any, having in the past always gone the hide glue
route for oils.
The advantages of useing the acrylic gesso as I see them are:
1) You have it to hand.
2) It will cover well and completely
3) It will help stabilize the surface
4) It will dry completely very quickly
Putting acrylic over oil is not something you want to do while
painting. Since oil paints dry by oxidation of the carrier oil they
take a long time to completely finish drying. Acrylic drys quite
rapidly. Here is a fairly concise explanation of the reasons you
don't want to put paint that dries faster over a slower drying oil
paint.
It is a basic rule of oil painting.
http://www.artists.ca/FCA-7c-07.html
If you have any doubts whatsover about how dry the current painting is
do not use the gesso.
Acrylic gessos are perfectly safe to use under oils. You just have to
make sure there is enough texture to the surface that the paint can
hang onto. The paints adhere to the surface via a mechanical bond, so
if the surface is too smooth they tend to flake. Hence my
recomendation to scuff the surface of the old painting up with
sandpaper in a previous post.
Don't fret overmuch about it.
As I said, I am kind of anal about surface prep.
If it is a painting just for you, then wail with it and see what
happens. You will find that you learn new stuff with every painting,
and just when you think you have it down, somebody invents something
new, discovers something old, or bans something you depend on, and
there you go again. :)
Thea Barbato
Thanks! No doubts about the painting being dry - it was completed about six
or seven years ago and if it's not dry by now, then something is really
wrong with this picture (literally and figuratively : - )!
The rest of your post makes perfect sense and now I'm ready to proceed!!
T.