question about oil painting supports
Hans Supp
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net says...
>If so, is there anything I can do to
>the plywood to make it a more suitable support?
Several coats of acrylic gesso will do it.
Paul Mesken
wrote:
Personally I favour MDF over plywood (about all my panels are MDF,
never had any problems with them). I have a plywood panel which I used
as a testboard (it now has 30 shades of 5 different blues and blacks
on it). I used it as a testboard because the gesso on it had crackled,
this was _acrylic_ gesso, it's not supposed to crackle! The reason for
crackling was probably because the gesso was very much diluted with
water. I guess the gesso itself got sucked in and caused tensions
along the grain of the wood (the crackling was along the grain of the
wood). Thus my advice would be not to dilute the acrylic gesso too
much.
The "outgassing" problem of wood like MDF or plywood shouldn't be
overexaggerated. Nowadays very little glue is used and the gesso
should seal the wood off quite effectively. I never had bubbles in my
ground coming up.
BTW another source of good wood might be a second hand store, if some
old wood is found there (an old drawing board from a drawing table
would be ideal) then that can be used. It's quite hard to find wood
that's "worked out" otherwise.
Argon3
plywood remain dimensionally stable or would the composition of the plywood be
subject to some kind of chemical deterioration over time.
I was going to pick up a few of the "handy panels" of plywood that they sell at
Home Depot and slap a few coats of gesso on them and use them as supports. I
was looking at the birch veneer with composition substrate as opposed to the
sheets that were actually made up of plys of wood. I do intend to use this for
my own practice and not for sale...I don't care if they will last an eternity.
The concern would be that the glue used to hold the plys together or to hold
the composition material together will break down or discolor over time.
Knowing that conservators have done things like lift the entire surface of a
painting off of an impure backing in order to put it on a neutral and stable
backing...well, if your artwork is that important after the amount of time that
it would take for the glue in the plywood to break down (and I don't know how
long that would take...I imagine that it is, in fact, pretty stable) then
posterity will have to shoulder the expense!
Half inch thick plywood seems like it would be pretty stable
dimensionally...quarter inch might warp but it could be "cradled" by attaching
a frame of dimensional lumber (like 1X2's or 1X3's) to the back. Masonite
panels are sold commercially with cradled backs.
I've looked at a lot of wonderful paintings at the Art Institute of Chicago
that were done on panels rather than canvas. Makes me want to paint on some
prepared wood. My understanding is that the old guys in Italy used panels made
of poplar...most of the smaller Leonardo's are done on panels (Ginevra de
Benici, Girl with the Ermine, etc.).
Give it a shot. Maybe the plywood companies can provide some information as to
the pedicted longevity of the glues used in their manufacture.
best
argon
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net
"Paul Mesken" <usu...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:akejav0hiner63643...@4ax.com...
> >Several coats of acrylic gesso will do it.
>
> Personally I favour MDF over plywood (about all my panels are MDF,
> never had any problems with them).
What is MDF? Is it hard to get? I live in a small town in Oklahoma and they
ain't got none of that 'xotic stuff ;)
I have a plywood panel which I used
> as a testboard (it now has 30 shades of 5 different blues and blacks
> on it). I used it as a testboard because the gesso on it had crackled,
> this was _acrylic_ gesso, it's not supposed to crackle! The reason for
> crackling was probably because the gesso was very much diluted with
> water. I guess the gesso itself got sucked in and caused tensions
> along the grain of the wood (the crackling was along the grain of the
> wood). Thus my advice would be not to dilute the acrylic gesso too
> much.
Would sealing it with a wood sealer help, or should the gesso do the trick?
I've never used an acrylic gesso, only the chalk stuff, made from scratch.
> The "outgassing" problem of wood like MDF or plywood shouldn't be
> overexaggerated. Nowadays very little glue is used and the gesso
> should seal the wood off quite effectively. I never had bubbles in my
> ground coming up.
The man at the lumber store here said I shouldn't have any problem with the
mahogany plywood, but then, he's a lumberman, not an artist.
> BTW another source of good wood might be a second hand store, if some
> old wood is found there (an old drawing board from a drawing table
> would be ideal) then that can be used. It's quite hard to find wood
> that's "worked out" otherwise.
Good thought. I'll check that out. I also saw an artist -- I forget where --
using a hollow core door. Don't know how that would work, but it seems it
might be a little expensive for me. Besides, I don't work that big. Though I
guess you could cut it, probably.
thank you for your reply!
wanda
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net
news:20030425191853...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> I was going to pick up a few of the "handy panels" of plywood that they
sell at
> Home Depot and slap a few coats of gesso on them and use them as supports.
I
> was looking at the birch veneer with composition substrate as opposed to
the
> sheets that were actually made up of plys of wood. I do intend to use
this for
> my own practice and not for sale...I don't care if they will last an
eternity.
> The concern would be that the glue used to hold the plys together or to
hold
> the composition material together will break down or discolor over time.
That was my concern as well. The only mention of this I came across was in
The Artist's Handbook, and it was only briefly mentioned.
> Knowing that conservators have done things like lift the entire surface of
a
> painting off of an impure backing in order to put it on a neutral and
stable
> backing...well, if your artwork is that important after the amount of time
that
> it would take for the glue in the plywood to break down (and I don't know
how
> long that would take...I imagine that it is, in fact, pretty stable) then
> posterity will have to shoulder the expense!
Well, I want it to last and I certainly don't want it to ruin in my lifetime
but I don't care if it lasts an eternity either. It would be nice if it did,
but nothing does, so I'm not going to worry about it -that- much :)
>
> Half inch thick plywood seems like it would be pretty stable
> dimensionally...quarter inch might warp but it could be "cradled" by
attaching
> a frame of dimensional lumber (like 1X2's or 1X3's) to the back. Masonite
> panels are sold commercially with cradled backs.
Unfortunately, the man only had 1/4". I thought of that as well, since I
had, long ago, made the mistake of trying to use 1/4" masonite without
cradling it. Disaster.
> I've looked at a lot of wonderful paintings at the Art Institute of
Chicago
> that were done on panels rather than canvas. Makes me want to paint on
some
> prepared wood. My understanding is that the old guys in Italy used panels
made
> of poplar...most of the smaller Leonardo's are done on panels (Ginevra de
> Benici, Girl with the Ermine, etc.).
I had heard the same thing, also mentioned in The Artist's Handbook. I bet I
couldn't find poplar anyway, not around here. I priced canvas a few days
ago, both prepared and do-it-yourself, and I was *appalled* at how pricey
they were! It's been a long time since I used oils, I had no idea that
canvas was that expensive.
>
> Give it a shot. Maybe the plywood companies can provide some information
as to
> the pedicted longevity of the glues used in their manufacture.
I thought about asking when I called, then decided to wait until I knew more
from the group. I'm sure the lumberman wouldn't know that either. Monday
I'll ask for the company's name and number. Someone there should know.
>
> best
> argon
thanks so much!
wanda
Timothy Domst
chalk to fill the crevices in the plywood. The best way is to coat,
let dry, and sand; the first time with a scraper edge, then do it again
once or twice with just a brushed coat. Then you can prime that with
an oil based white or acrylic white gesso.
In article <3ea9...@news.zianet.com>, Hans Supp
Paul Mesken
>
>"Paul Mesken" <usu...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
>news:akejav0hiner63643...@4ax.com...
>> On 25 Apr 2003 07:51:36 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Hans Supp)
>> wrote:
>
>> >Several coats of acrylic gesso will do it.
>>
>> Personally I favour MDF over plywood (about all my panels are MDF,
>> never had any problems with them).
>
>What is MDF? Is it hard to get? I live in a small town in Oklahoma and they
>ain't got none of that 'xotic stuff ;)
MDF is not hard to get, nor is it exotic. It's a very popular type of
wood made of wood fibers pressed into panels (like a particle board
but with a far higher density). It's most often used to make
furniture. Here's a quick link :
http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm
A lot of the small panels I get are leftovers from sawing at the
lumber store. You should be able to get a nice price for those small
pieces since they're virtually impossible to sell.
>I have a plywood panel which I used
>> as a testboard (it now has 30 shades of 5 different blues and blacks
>> on it). I used it as a testboard because the gesso on it had crackled,
>> this was _acrylic_ gesso, it's not supposed to crackle! The reason for
>> crackling was probably because the gesso was very much diluted with
>> water. I guess the gesso itself got sucked in and caused tensions
>> along the grain of the wood (the crackling was along the grain of the
>> wood). Thus my advice would be not to dilute the acrylic gesso too
>> much.
>
>Would sealing it with a wood sealer help, or should the gesso do the trick?
>I've never used an acrylic gesso, only the chalk stuff, made from scratch.
The acrylic gesso should be enough. If you should use MDF and the real
gesso (which I favour since it can be made far smoother and whiter
than acrylic gesso) then make very sure also to apply some layers on
the back side of the panel since real gesso can quite easily warp MDF
panels.
Hans Supp
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net says...
>Good thought. I'll check that out. I also saw an artist -- I forget where --
>using a hollow core door. Don't know how that would work, but it seems it
>might be a little expensive for me. Besides, I don't work that big. Though I
>guess you could cut it, probably.
Might have been me! I've discussed the value of
using hollow core doors here in the past. Light
weight to size ratio is the big advantage. You
can use the door in place of stretcher bars for
canvas if painting directly on the door doesn't
appeal to you. It gives a very fine finished
look considering the trend nowadays to hang
painted canvas without framing (gallery wrapped).
As for using OTHER than ACRYLIC GESSO, DON'T!
Gesso you make yourself from anything that takes
water as a diluent is NOT going to be the same
as using Acrylic Medium as the diluent. It's the
Acrylic Medium that makes the system work, not
the chalk fillers!
I will qualify that last paragraph by saying
that if you are going to paint over plywood that
already has some sort of coating on it, then
prime first with a KILZ product before applying
the acrylic gesso. I have been using KILZ for
several years now - ever since it came on the
market - and although it is not sold as an artist
product, it is highly recommended in commercial
work and I have no qualms about using it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL!
Chris
> If you want it to be perfectly smooth, use rabbit skin glue mixed with
> chalk to fill the crevices in the plywood. The best way is to coat,
> let dry, and sand; the first time with a scraper edge, then do it again
> once or twice with just a brushed coat. Then you can prime that with
> an oil based white or acrylic white gesso.
>
That's pretty much the classical formula - glue, then muslin, then
several coats of glue mixed with chalk and sanded smooth in between. I
think the muslin helps keep the surface from cracking. It sounds
tedious, but I find if I do a number of panels at once, it's not half
bad, and it does provide a wonderful surface to work on.
Chris
Hans Supp
bro...@ns.sympatico.ca says...
>That's pretty much the classical formula - glue, then muslin, then
>several coats of glue mixed with chalk and sanded smooth in between. I
>think the muslin helps keep the surface from cracking. It sounds
>tedious, but I find if I do a number of panels at once, it's not half
>bad, and it does provide a wonderful surface to work on.
>
>Chris
I won't challenge the end result except to
say "there is an easier way." Note I didn't
say "better way" since I don't know if acrylic
gesso is better in the long run or not. But
in the short term, and for those of us who
have no aspirations for having our work in
museum collections for posterity, it seems to
me that the acyrlic gesso is 'best.'
As for 'sealing the plywood' before overcoating
with acrylic, I'd have to say that if it needs
very much 'sealing' perhaps a better grade of
plywood is needed in the first place. Plywood
comes in all grades and finishes and all are
not suited to 'fine art' uses. Most of the
cabinet-grade plywoods should need very little
surface preparation prior to gessoing. By
'cabinet-grade' I mean those fine and expensive
plywoods used in finish work.
As for using any of the MDF grades - I wouldn't!
Not if I could buy luan plywood or similar. Luan
is the wood finish often found in those hollow-core
doors. It's probably the most economical of
cabinet grade finishes. I think luan is a type
of Philipino mahogany.
MDF is notorious for swelling and coming unglued
when wet. I know it's used in much of the furniture
sold today, and that it's not supposed to get
'that wet.' But I still feel if is inferior
mechanically to cabinet grade plywood.
Hans Supp
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net says...
>I priced canvas a few days
>ago, both prepared and do-it-yourself, and I was *appalled* at how pricey
>they were! It's been a long time since I used oils, I had no idea that
>canvas was that expensive.
I have no idea what you mean by 'expensive' but
here is my source of raw canvas and stretcher
bars and they are about the cheapest I've found
in my over 30 years of buying art supplies by
MAIL ORDER. I too now live in a small town with
no art supply outlet anywhere near and I buy
all my art supplies by mail order and most of them
from:
I buy the 80oz cotton canvas 'by the roll' and stretcher
bars 'by the box full.' But you can buy in whatever
quantity you are willing to pay the shipping costs
for. Needless to say, I haven't bought pre-stretched
canvas since my early 'learning to paint' days, and
even then I hated the cheap quality of the products
readily available 'back then.'
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>As for using OTHER than ACRYLIC GESSO, DON'T!
I don't get it. Are you advising not to use real gesso in any case? I
work with both acrylic gesso and the real gesso. Both have their own
advantages and disadvantages. There's ofcourse also the lead white
ground as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, nothing gets more
archival than lead white, it will outlive the wood or canvas it's put
on.
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>MDF is notorious for swelling and coming unglued
>when wet. I know it's used in much of the furniture
>sold today, and that it's not supposed to get
>'that wet.' But I still feel if is inferior
>mechanically to cabinet grade plywood.
This is very true, MDF resembles like a sponge when interacting with
water and it will be damaged permanently. But ofcourse : it shouldn't
get wet and it can easily be sealed off.
Hans Supp
says...
>
>On 26 Apr 2003 06:29:08 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Hans Supp)
>wrote:
>
>>As for using OTHER than ACRYLIC GESSO, DON'T!
>
>I don't get it. Are you advising not to use real gesso in any case?
No. I was responding to the originator
of this thread who was planning to use
what I thought was "whiting" mixed with
water. I don't see the post on my server
now so can't quote the exact phrase.
I've already acknowledged that rabbit skin
glue with a filler would be suitable. But
who wants to mess with glue when you can
get the same result from acrylic - not me!
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>On 27 Apr 2003 17:01:24 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Hans Supp)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <5avnavkt2b7l7bnk1...@4ax.com>, usu...@euronet.nl
>>says...
>>>
>>>On 26 Apr 2003 06:29:08 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Hans Supp)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>As for using OTHER than ACRYLIC GESSO, DON'T!
>>>
>>>I don't get it. Are you advising not to use real gesso in any case?
>>
>>No. I was responding to the originator
>>of this thread who was planning to use
>>what I thought was "whiting" mixed with
>>water. I don't see the post on my server
>>now so can't quote the exact phrase.
>>
>>I've already acknowledged that rabbit skin
>>glue with a filler would be suitable. But
>>who wants to mess with glue when you can
>>get the same result from acrylic - not me!
>>
>
>
>Thank you for all the suggestions. I got a sheet of the mahogany
>plywood yesterday and have sealed it with a wood sealer. I'd use the
>acrylic gesso, but this town only has a walmart and they don't have
>any. Neither do I, unfortunately. I do, however, have rabbitskin glue
>and marble dust, so I will probably try that on part of the sheet.
>I'll have to order the acrylic gesso to try it on the other piece of
>the sheet. I'm anxious to get started, but this stuff takes time,
>unfortunately. With the wood sealer, how would 3-4 coats of gesso be?
>When I prepare a tempera panel, I typically put anywhere from 6-8
>coats of gesso. I suppose I could add some linseed oil to the gesso to
>make it less absorbant as well. Any thoughts?
>
This is getting a little bit confusing with the use of the word
"gesso" which can mean the real gesso (glue, filler, white) and
acrylic gesso.
For acrylic gesso : *don't* mix it with oil.
Acrylic gesso is repelled by anything fat (I always use some ammonia
to clean the panels from any trace of fat my hands might have left).
Besides, there's no need to make acrylic gesso less absorbant. Acrylic
gesso is far less absorbant than the real gesso. Actually, it's
practically non-absorbant, you can wipe off an entire oil painting
from an acrylic primed panel, this is one of the advantages of using
acrylic gesso. If a painting fails you can wipe it off and use the
primed panel for another painting, this is impossible with real gesso
which absorbs paint.
Also : you cannot use acrylic gesso for tempera painting. Once, I just
did it for fun to see what happened and big holes appeared in the
paint film. This is one of the drawbacks of acrylic gesso since you
cannot mix tempera painting with oil painting (especially blues look
better when done in tempera).
Hans Soutt
says...
>This is getting a little bit confusing with the use of the word
>"gesso" which can mean the real gesso (glue, filler, white) and
>acrylic gesso.
Anyone contemplating using OTHER than acrylic
gesso should read Ralph Mayer's descriptions
of preparing wood panels with TRADITIONAL gesso in
THE ARTIST's HANDBOOK.
Using glues and whiting is not a cut and dried
guarantee of successful surface preparation
prior to painting. There are all sorts of
pitfalls for the unwary. That's why I suggest
the use of acrylic gesso for those who are in
the learning stages of beginning painting.
Quoting just a bit of Mayer, "...the unerring
production of perfect gesso surfaces requires
careful workmanship and a painstaking attention
to detail." Also be sure and read the chapter
titled "Defects of Gesso Panels" which refers
to the traditional gesso.
>For acrylic gesso : *don't* mix it with oil.
AMEN to that! Oil and water-based do not mix!
> Acrylic gesso is far less absorbant than the real gesso.
Very true! And Mayer addresses that fact in his
book. Those artists who are bent on producing
paintings in a "traditional" manner, be it
egg tempera, encaustic or ???, would do well to
stick with traditional preparations for the ground.
Chris
"WBrownlee" <xenoc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:vompavg54btl167q2...@4ax.com...
>> Thank you for all the suggestions. I got a sheet of the mahogany
> plywood yesterday and have sealed it with a wood sealer. I'd use the
> acrylic gesso, but this town only has a walmart and they don't have
> any. Neither do I, unfortunately. I do, however, have rabbitskin glue
> and marble dust, so I will probably try that on part of the sheet.
> I'll have to order the acrylic gesso to try it on the other piece of
> the sheet. I'm anxious to get started, but this stuff takes time,
> unfortunately. With the wood sealer, how would 3-4 coats of gesso be?
> When I prepare a tempera panel, I typically put anywhere from 6-8
> coats of gesso. I suppose I could add some linseed oil to the gesso to
> make it less absorbant as well. Any thoughts?
Wanda;
I don't know how good an idea putting a wood sealer on the panel was - did
you check out to see how well other materials would bond to the surface
after it has been applied? Just a thought...
If you are using the traditional glue gesso, apply the oil after the gesso
has set (don't mix it into the gesso), and then very thinly. I think
about.com (http://www.about.com ) had a reasonable recipe for chalk and glue
gesso, just do a search on it there.
Good luck,
Chris
Hans Soutt
xenoc...@sbcglobal.net says...
>>Anyone contemplating using OTHER than acrylic
>>gesso should read Ralph Mayer's descriptions
>>of preparing wood panels with TRADITIONAL gesso in
>>THE ARTIST's HANDBOOK.
>
>I've not read that one
Uh Oh! I thought you said you were familiar
with Mayer's book. If not, and you're serious
about 'painting' as an art form, rush out and
buy it right now. I think it's now in it's 8th
edition, meaning it's been upgraded well past
Mayer's death many years ago. But as far as I'm
concerned, it's still THE definitive work for
serious 'painting' artists.
Paul Mesken
wrote:
What?! The _eight_ edition already? I'm still stuck with the fifth ;-)
Hans Soutt
says...
>What?! The _eight_ edition already? I'm still stuck with the fifth ;-)
Who knows! Maybe it's just my 'futuristic' thinking.
It may well be that the 'fifth' got to me when I wrote
that too. In any event, I hope the person buying
whatever the latest edition is will get it right.
Chug-a-lug....glug...