Oil on Raw Canvas; staples - Grumbacher response
Clara Knett
>Grumbacher does NOT recommend painting in oil over acrylic.
You know, I have to wonder at the "expertise"
of a paint company that sells paints that no
professional artist I know would use. As for
painting oils over acrylics, they would have
to argue that point with literally THOUSANDS
of professional artists who do just that!
I would trust the professionals at Daniel
Smith before those at Grumbacher. I don't know
if Daniel Smith still answers technical questions
by mail or not. They used to. But anyone can
call them on the phone and ask for technical
assistance. Their very accomodating that way,
or were the last time I tried them.
Sharon Barcone
"Dan Fox" <danf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20010809181332.055$Y...@newsreader.com...
> Clara -
>
> Excellent point. I've emailed Daniel Smith - we'll see what they say. In
> the meantime, here is the Grumbacher response to my followup question
about
> the actual processes involved. Note that they exclude acrylic-gessoed
> grounds from the prohibition of oil over acrylic:
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> The reason for not painting oil over acrylic is not chemical. It is
> physical.
>
> As stated in prior responses, oil color requires application to a surface
> that has a certain amount of absorbency and a certain degree of tooth if
it
> is to dry and adhere properly. Acrylic paint does not provide such a
> surface. To the contrary, its dry film is not porous and therefore not
> absorbent and it is relatively smooth. It has no tooth in and of itself.
> Oil paint applications may adhere to such surfaces for a time, but as the
> oil becomes more polymerized with time it will lose its adhesive bond to
> such a surface and delaminate. This may take years to happen, but it will
> eventually occur.
>
> Acrylic gesso and acrylic paints are two different things. A properly
> formulated acrylic gesso has a different ratio of dry solids to acrylic
> resin than acrylic paint and it contains ingredients, notably calcium
> carbonate in various forms, that provide its dry film with the amount of
> absorbency and degree of tooth necessary for the proper long term adhesion
> of oil colors.
>
Much as I hate to admit it, Grumbacher's advice seems to be sound. Many
sources have stated that it is fine to paint oil over acrylic colors, though
I personally have only painted oil over shades of gray. Their argument has
convinced me. I may try adding small amounts of black to acrylic gesso to
value underpaintings from now on.
I have used Grumbacher's Pre-tested oils for many years and find the quality
consistent as well as the paint consistency and color. I know of many
professionals who also use it.
They make about the only neutral red, or at least the best I have found in
their Grumbacher red. I also have Grumbacher brushes that are over 50 years
old and still in use.
Though I do use other brands in some paints from time to time I like
Grumbacher.
sharon
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Clara Knett
>Note that they exclude acrylic-gessoed
>grounds from the prohibition of oil over acrylic:
Okay. I've no quarrel with this latest information.
But I do know internationally acclaimed artists
who paint with oils OVER acrylic paint passages.
I have no idea whether the artists I have in mind
take precautions to insure the acrylic paint has
the proper tooth or not. I myself have never worried
about that and have seen no evidence of separation
in paintings I did years ago where I finished a
painting in oils that was begun with acrylics.
But I have never painted in impasto - always thinly.
Maybe I'll come back (reincarnate) as an art
restorer and ask someone who has those paintings
then to let me have a shot at restoring them...
Dik F. Liu
that has a certain amount of absorbency and a certain degree of tooth if it is
to dry and adhere properly. Acrylic paint does not provide such a surface.<
Neither does traditional oil priming white. Yet, paintings painted on such a
ground have lasted for centuries.
Dik
Joe Bennett
I'm wondering what kind of "traditional oil priming white" you are referencing.
My traditional -- very, very traditional -- oil priming white, dreadfully toxic
lead white which I make even more toxic by cutting with pure gum turpentine --
dries to a wonderful matt finish which loves the oils and grasps them tightly and
forever.
There are some non-toxic, titanium based priming whites which might dry to a semi
gloss, but even they offer enough tooth to meet all technical requirements for
permanence. I was really surprised by your post and wonder what product you have
in mind.
Regards...
Joe
(I really ought to be working.)
Dik F. Liu
Liquitex, which otherwise makes mediocre oil paints, made an excellent lead
white - buttery and lean and had a real kick. It is no longer in production. I
bought a patch of La Franc lead white about three years ago, before the company
changed hand. I still have a few tubes left.
If you thin your paint with turpentine, it could dry matte. The turpentine
somewhat breaks up the pigment from oil. I usually put on the lead white
straight, spreading it on with a large palette knife on a canvas well sized
with about two coats of cute bunny skin glue. I lay it on thick enough that the
texture of the canvas is completely covered. The lead white dries to and even
satin sheen.
You mentioned titanium based priming whites. I don't use it. Titanium is slower
drying than lead white. Since lead white is what is traditionally used, I
haven't the need to substitute it with titanium white. I do use titanium white
for painting.
As I remember, Fredrix made (makes) an oil priming white. Nasty stuff. The oil
separates from the pigment inside the can.
Dik
Joe Bennett
We have different needs for painting surface. I cut the lead primer with
turpentine because I want a couple of thin coats, allowing the texture of the
canvas to show. In some cases, the texture has turned out to be part of the
message, one might say. Besides, I pay a ton for Belgian linen and don't want it
to look like a birch board from the local hardware.
The Fredrix stuff indeed was nasty, but at least it was readily available. Here in
the Detroit area -- the art capital of America -- the health nazis have succeeded
in getting most things toxic either banned or damned hard to get. I had one thing
of Utrecht's titanium based oil primer and used about half of it, of necessity.
I now have enough prepared canvas in my studio to carry me for some time and am
investigating the lead white primers offered by Sennelier, whose paints I have used
to good result -- not great, but certainly very good -- and the newest guy on the
block, Williamsburg. I must say, having used Williamsburg's flake white and silver
white, Kevin Kelly and his crew certainly know how to make paint. It is among the
very best (and most expensive) that I have ever used and is a delight in its
working habits. The Italian Art Store in New Jersey will get either or both of
these upon request (talk to Karen) although neither is carried in their catalog.
(Aside, and well off the subject: The Italian Art Store is an absolute pleasure to
deal with. Call them, and a real live human being answers the phone. Not only
that, but this human being is completely knowledgeable not just about what's in
stock, but about painting as well and know what you're trying to communicate even
when you don't know the "current right words." And the prices are competitive;
those that are a skosh higher than some other catalogs are not significant, and
dealing with helpful, informed people more than makes up for a dime here or there.
For Old Holland oils, the Italian Art Store simply cannot be beat in America.
Believe it or not, I have no interest and no investment in that store; I just
really like them and believe anyone who deals with them will come to respect them
as much as I do.)
I'll probably buy a minimum of each for direct comparison, but won't have that
opinion to send to you for some months, as priming is the devil's own work and I
put it off until down to about a month's working canvas and the need is staring me
in the face.
Regards...
Joe
Dik F. Liu
<joseph...@mediaone.net> writes:
>We have different needs for painting surface. I cut the lead primer with
turpentine because I want a couple of thin coats, allowing the texture of the
canvas to show. In some cases, the texture has turned out to be part of the
message, one might say. Besides, I pay a ton for Belgian linen and don't want
it to look like a birch board from the local hardware.<
Belgian linen is a pricy affair, Joe. It definitely requires/deserves the bunny
skin glue and lead priming white treatment.
>I now have enough prepared canvas in my studio to carry me for some time and
am investigating the lead white primers offered by Sennelier, whose paints I
have used to good result -- not great, but certainly very good -- and the
newest guy on the block, Williamsburg. I must say, having used Williamsburg's
flake white and silver white, Kevin Kelly and his crew certainly know how to
make paint. It is among the very best (and most expensive) that I have ever
used and is a delight in its working habits.<
Sennelier has never enthused me. They certainly are good paints, but don't seem
to do anything spectacular. You might want to try LaFranc lead white. Another
lead white that comes to mind is Winsor and Newton. They make at least two
shades of lead white - flake white and cremnitz white. The latter is supposed
to be awesome. A friend who uses it swears by it. (I look at the price tag and
swear at it.)
Be careful with Williamsburg Paints, Joe. They are good paints but
inconsistence, varying from batch to batch. A friend who used their white (I
don't think it was their lead white, however) had the linseed oil surfacing as
the paint dried. It was a near monochrome white painting and the white areas
dried with patches of light yellow. That tube of white paint was either under
ground, or lack enough stabilizer.
I used to grind my own paints, but never tried lead white for obvious reasons.
>For Old Holland oils, the Italian Art Store simply cannot be beat in America.
Believe it or not, I have no interest and no investment in that store; I just
really like them and believe anyone who deals with them will come to respect
them as much as I do.)<
That sounds like a great store, Joe. Old Holland is much, much, much too rich
for me. I paint in impasto and if I use Old Holland I'd break the bank even if
I sell every painting from my studio. I am even afraid to use the paints. What
if I come to like it too much?
Old Holland is I think the only company that still uses stone rollers for
grinding paints. Most companies have switched metal rollers. Using stone
rollers is inefficient as, unlike steel rollers, they take at least a day to
cool down. But the stone rollers give Old Holland paints a unique texture. More
than any other paints, Old Hollands are closest to hand grind paints.
Dik
Joe Bennett
I will check out the LaFranc lead white if I can get it. I agree with you
regarding the Williamsburg paints as to inconsistency but don't entirely agree
regarding Sennelier. We have very different painting styles and that most likely
accounts for differing results. I use Sennelier cadmiums, the reds and yellows,
and several non-cadmiums and three or four blues, and Old Holland for the earth
colors, which are simply not to be found elsewhere. If you use heavy impasto, the
Sennelier paints will be virtually useless due to their consistency. Like
Rembrandt's paintings, as described by one of his students: "They ran down like
dung." (I should create such dung!) I tend to paint generously, but certainly not
impasto, hence OH does not break the bank.
And OH flake white (called silver white by others) and Cremnitz I will stack
against anybody's anywhere. The Williamsburg story in your post is really
disturbing, and I must say, not reflective of my experience with their whites,
which I really like even though the oil tends to separate in the tube, mainly
because they use nothing, repeat, nothing, but oil and pigment. But now that I have
met OH whites (a relatively recent happy occasion) I will stick with the stone
ground version.
Regards...
Joe Bennett
Dik F. Liu
Williamsburg's paints could be as you noted just pigment and oil, and that
could be a part of the problem. All tubed paints require a stabilizer, in most
cases a two percent wax paste will do. Without the stabilizer, the paints
cannot withstand long term storage, as the oil will separate from the pigment
inside the tube.
You mentioned Williamsburg as the new kid on the block. They have actually be
around for at least fourteen years. If I remember correctly, they started out
grinding paints for Milton Resnick. I could be wrong about that. Anyhow, when
they expanded into a company they sold paints mostly to local painters in the
Williamsburg section of Brooklyn. (In the late 80's, there were about 50,000
artists working in Williamsburg.). Painters went to the factory to buy the
paints. Back in the mid 90's, they grew larger and had a store in Manhattan. I
did not know that you can now buy they paints in Detroit. The Williamsburg's
white the my friend used was from a few years ago. May be they have since
worked out the kinks.
There are a few independent companies that, like Williamsburg in the olden
days, make their own paints. Their paints are often surprisingly good, spotting
offbeat colors not available from mainstream companies. There is now another
paint company in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I can't remember its name at the
moment. Around the corner from the Williamsburg's Manhattan store, is a little
store called Vasari. Vasari seems to specialize in obscure colors. In the
center of the store is a large glass palette. The owner lets you play with the
paints before before buying them.
Dik
mdeli
away from lead based paints and especially grounds, which require
sanding. Both lead and cadmiums and true naples yellow are cumulative
toxins which one should carefully avoid ingesting.
Most any technique can be duplicated with less toxic materials. Read
bout them and decide for yourself.
Joe Bennett wrote:
>Dik...
>
>I will check out the LaFranc lead white if I can get it. I agree with you
>regarding the Williamsburg paints as to inconsistency but don't entirely agree
>regarding Sennelier. We have very different painting styles and that most likely
>accounts for differing results. I use Sennelier cadmiums, the reds and yellows,
>and several non-cadmiums and three or four blues, and Old Holland for the earth
>colors, which are simply not to be found elsewhere.
>"Dik F. Liu" wrote:
>
...no skill no art
Modern Academic Art is incompetence in search of an idea.
Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page!
Chris
> I agree with Mani. With the materials available today, there is just no
> reason to use toxics like lead. Doing so just to be traditional
> is silly in my opinion.
On the other hand, the colour is subtle and beautiful (at least in some -
there's a good deal of variation in tint between manufacturers); and with a
little care the toxic risk is non-existent. Re preparing canvas for lead
grounds; sanding isn't particularly necessary; one can get a pretty good
surface simply by carefully rubbing the canvas after the first coat of ceruse
has dried , using a scrap piece of damped canvas. This breaks off & picks up
the fibers that would otherwise give it a rough texture.
BTW Dan - re. stretchers, I meant to throw my two bits in earlier but forgot
- I've found the only way to keep them from deforming is to make sure you buy
clear wood (no knots, no heartwood) in which the grain is aligned properly -
i.e. neither running in nor out; parallel with the length of the stretcher,
and preferably cut radially from a hardwood like ash, rather than pine
(which is common in the cheaper stretchers). It's a good idea to assemble the
stretchers in the store before you pay for them, and lay them out on the
floor - as a slight twist or miscutting of the mitering at the corners can be
hard to judge just by visual inspection.
Regards,
Chris
Joe Bennett
Your cautions are well taken and most likely there are tons of lurkers who check into
this news group who will profit mightily from them. However, even though I am here in
Detroit (the art capital of the whole bloody world), I don't suck on my brushes (very
much) and I never eat paint, which some of the children in Detroit even today seem
determined to do.
If it will make you feel any better, know that when priming with toxins I wear
surgical gloves which make me look like a latent proctologist. Most often, when doing
a sky or something like that which involves a ton of flake white, I'll slip into the
gloves. As to smoking, as soon as people saw the futility in telling me to stop, I
stopped. My way, in my arrogant time. And I hardly ever nibble while painting, just
because the emotional output is so intense my taste buds shut down.
Most of the people who use lead white for priming atop sized, personally stretched raw
canvas are quite likely to be aware of the hazards and ready to take the precautions.
To those who are horrified at the thought of using these things, I recommend Titian,
who got to be 92 plus, used lead white all his life, and didn't even have gloves!
But thank you for the concern. I am already old enough, and have been around this old
world in lots of nooks and corners, to have it said of me, should I drop dead this
afternoon, that "he had good innings."
Take care,
Joe Bennett
ABD
Clara Knett <ckn...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3b72a...@oracle.zianet.com...
Dale Ford
No need for the toxic stuff anymore.
Dale
Sharon Barcone
How was your trip. Lots of artistic inspiration, I hope. ;-)
sharon
"Dale Ford" <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B7848A1...@mb.sympatico.ca...
Clara Knett
says...
>
>What brand paints do the *professionals* use?
I was generalizing. You can use whatever you
wish. Matters not a whit to me. I don't buy
my paints in Walmart either but if that's
your choice, who cares!
ABD
Thanks for the tip.
Joe Bennett <joseph...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3B742704...@mediaone.net...
Marilyn Welch
"To those who are horrified at the thought of using these things, I
recommend Titian, who got to be 92 plus, used lead white all his life"
Yes, but that's what killed him.
Marilyn
Dik F. Liu
Welch <wq...@victoria.tc.ca> writes:
>Yes, but that's what killed him.<
Actually, Titian was killed by the plague in 1576.
Dik
Marilyn
When one is in one's 90's does one need to be killed by anything?
Like we used to say about my mother's mother-in-law.
She insisted on keeping her aluminum pots long after
everyone else had thrown them away. She lived to be 95.
We used to say, "Yes, but that's what killed her."
Marilyn
ABD
PY35 or PY37 and Cadmium Yellow Light PY35 (with maybe some PO20 or PY27)?
Dale Ford <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B7848A1...@mb.sympatico.ca...
ABD
I have a varied background: chemical engineering, pharmaceutical science,
computer hardware and software, telephony hardware and transport, and art.
My art background consists of sales, gallery management, and painting. I
have hobby painted since age five, on and off. A few years ago I started
painting every day, and some of my paintings have sold. In my definition,
that makes me a professional, since I have earned income, although my skill
level lacks far behind my creative abilities at this time. I have not
painted much in the last couple of years, because of lots of morning
sickness and a new baby. I very much wish for a respectable (and valuable,
worthwhile) art education, and the respect of other artists. It is time to
buy all new paints, and a book by Michael Wilcox "An Artist's Guide to
Selecting Colors" intrigued me. He has a background of engineering,
painting (professional) and conservation. After reading the book, I went to
my favorite local art supply store, and found that none of the items in my
new palette were available. You see, I was using student grade paints,
unknowingly, and had poor results (fading etc.) with some of the acrylics I
had used. That is what prompted me to start reading this newsgroup again.
(I was *away* for about five years.)
I have painted with acrylics and oils in the past. Lately I have been
struggling with the decision to invest in oils or acrylics. Oils suit my
needs better, since I like to rework a painting, and I truly enjoy them.
The acrylics gave me the fast drying I needed when I was traveling every
day, and wanted to neatly pack up my previous night's work. My questions
about toxicity are primarily because I am trying to get pregnant again, and
am still breastfeeding. I enjoy the oils more, but may opt for the acrylics
for this reason. The posts about encaustics intrigued me. They sound fun.
This group is loaded with great information. Most of what I have learned so
far is from books, magazines, and other artists. After visiting the
Italian Art Store website, I learned of two lines of paints that I was not
aware of. I truly thank everyone in this group for their sharing. One
person who used to post years ago (and I enjoyed them), was Larry Seiler.
Are you there Larry?
Clara Knett <ckn...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3b786...@oracle.zianet.com...
Joe Bennett
I cherish toxicity and do not believe, unlike others here, that adequate
substitutes have made toxins outdated. But I will say that if I were breast
feeding an infant, and with thoughts of getting pregnant again -- this would be
a real hoot, and certainly make the newspapers -- I would not consider allowing
anything into my house or my system that would even remotely possibly harm the
babe in arms or the one to come. Pay close heed to those here who caution
against using toxins like cadmiums, genuine cerulean (barium) and genuine Naples
yellow (lead antimonate), any of the chrome colors, flake white and so forth.
The risk just isn't worth the return, no matter how many precautions you might
take.
Enjoy your painting. Generally, I find, it is the result that is poisonous, not
the materials.
Love to you and the baby.
Joe Bennett
ABD
for the next couple of years, or paint with Crayola non-toxic paints?
Joe Bennett <joseph...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3B792FE8...@mediaone.net...
Joe Bennett
Heck no, but Crayolas might not be bad because they're making them better than
ever. Just ask my wife!
Most of the paints in the oil world are non toxic. Unfortunately, some of the
best are, like real cerulean, real Naples yellow, and the cadmiums. But the
chrome colors have never been all that good, with a distinct tendency to darken
with age. Even I haven't used any of them for decades.
While you don't have to give up painting in oils or otherwise, you do have to
take good care of yourself and your baby. When the infant gets along a few
years, you can pass along those Crayolas!
Chris
my finger on the source - that turpentine can be directly absorbed through the
skin. I don't know what the implications of that are, but it might be a
consideration.
I agree - crayola's (as crayons, I don't know about their paints)are pretty cool,
and if you want to go upscale there's always oil pastels and oilsticks, (both of
which can be worked after application, using a solvent). Generally speaking these
tend to use safer hues rather than toxic pigments, since they are handled
directly.
Cheers;
Chris
Clara Knett
says...
>
>I put professionals in ** because that whole discussion is another issue.
I read your post as questioning my reference
to Grumbacher as a "professional" paint,
not to whether one is or isn't "professional."
By definition, professional implies one earns
their living from their profession, in this
case "art" professionals, be they artists,
curators, teachers, conservators or whatever.
In any event, I highly recommend that any
beginning artist start with acrylics for a
number of reasons, not the least of which
is its versatility. Toxicity is something
that one has to accept if one is going to
use artist's materials. I know of no way
to make the world totally safe from every
conceived misuse - including from those who
are silly enough to drive their cars with a
cup of hot coffee in their laps, then sue the
seller of the coffee for making it too hot.
If one decides to pursue art in a serious
manner, then one should make oneself aware
of the inherent hazards of using artists
materials. Acrylics are probably about as
safe as any art medium since the toxic elements
(pigments and dyes) are bound up in the acrylic
vehicle to begin with. It's not necessary to
modify the paint as it comes from jar or tube as
it is with oils and alkyds. And the ability to
clean up with water is a distinct advantage too.
On the other hand, I doubt that anyone would
claim it is safe to ingest acrylic vehicle.
Clara Knett
>
>Another point that might be worth mentionning - I read somewhere, but I can't
pu
>t
>my finger on the source - that turpentine can be directly absorbed through the
>skin. I don't know what the implications of that are, but it might be a
>consideration.
Turpentine is the single worst allergen that
painters seem to have trouble with. It's
probably due to its origins - pine sap. There
are people who are allergic to pine trees
themselves - the pollen or whatever it is that
causes allergic reactions. Luckily, there is
no reason one need use turpentine at all.
Plain mineral spirits (paint thinner) will
do nicely instead. It is, after all, the
drying oils (linseed, poppyseed, etc) that
"make" oil paint paint. Turpentine is a thinner
that has historical roots but mineral spirits
are just as effective as a thinner today.