Oh no! Line paintings!
Richard
Our incompetent beginning painting teacher is going to require us to
paint two paintings using just lines! This is the first assignment
where we're required to make abstract "art." In addition, she wants
them to be "presented well," by which she means she wants us to shell
out more cash to buy frames and mats for this stupid crap! This is a
JOKE! I'm getting more and more disgruntled with her. I'm not sure
what I'm going to do about these dumb assignments. I think I'm going
to have a talk with her.
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Michelle R. Tribe
Richard <cool_a...@z.com> wrote:
> Our incompetent beginning painting teacher is going to require us to
> paint two paintings using just lines! This is the first assignment
> where we're required to make abstract "art." In addition, she wants
> them to be "presented well," by which she means she wants us to shell
> out more cash to buy frames and mats for this stupid crap! This is a
> JOKE! I'm getting more and more disgruntled with her. I'm not sure
> what I'm going to do about these dumb assignments. I think I'm going
> to have a talk with her.
Your poor teacher, having to put up with someone as close-minded as you.
I feel so sorry for her. And I find myself marveling at your seemingly
complete lack of empathy for her position and perspective. Do you
really not understand what she's doing? Can you not try out these
experiments she offers you, and see where they take you?
What's your relationship with your mom like? Or with women in general?
Does that play a part in your attitude?
And your email address -- cool_artiste. How young you seem to me.
Please let me know how your talk with her goes. I bet she's had to deal
with people who feel like you before.
Please keep in mind that a few years down the road you'll look back at
the self of today and shake your head and smile sympathetically.
nobody
considering that you know so much. (yes, I know, fuck me and I'm an asshole)
Niall
Get a flower painting book or something, Richard
or better still, a colour by numbers book
(Just in case this teacher actually ignites
a tiny bit of creativity in you)
Niall
nobody <no...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3DCB36D3...@nowhere.net...
Richard
On Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:20:32 GMT, "Niall"
<aTAKEcaTHIS...@iol.ie> wrote:
>Here, here!
>
>Get a flower painting book or something, Richard
>or better still, a colour by numbers book
>(Just in case this teacher actually ignites
>a tiny bit of creativity in you)
I don't want to dumb down my artistic activities to the level of
modern artists. That's for you to do. I like making challenging art.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
is fair and reasonable that the teacher provide an explanation that would
support the purpose of a particular exercise. Some art books do provide
explanations of the exercise objectives. I provide complete explanations to
my students
I am aware that some art teachers mark down students who have acquired the
knowledge but display poor presentation. Some believe that presentation is
more important than knowledge. This raises the old problem of schools having
more of an interest in training students to be obedient little workers - but
that is another issue.
When you say to Richard (quote from below), ". Do you really not understand
what she's doing? ", leads me to the conclusion that you have an
understanding of his teacher's objective. It would be interesting if you
provided a short summary of her objective as you understand it. Such a short
summary may be more helpful to Richard than ....
keith
le R. Tribe <mrt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3DCB288F...@sympatico.ca...
Nikolaus Maack
"keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com" wrote:
> When you say to Richard (quote from below), ". Do you really not understand
> what she's doing? ", leads me to the conclusion that you have an
> understanding of his teacher's objective. It would be interesting if you
> provided a short summary of her objective as you understand it. Such a short
> summary may be more helpful to Richard than ....
When I was taking writing courses at Concordia, I got an experimental,
post-modern, philosophical professor named Robert Mazjels, who liked to
encourage us to do weird and wild things. He drove me nuts. He'd
praise people for their daring to write bizarre experiments, and (I
thought) ignore things like proper punctuation.
Over time, I realized that he did care about proper punctuation and the
like -- and spent a few classes covering that -- but wanted to promote a
different approach to writing in general. One where we can break the
rules, distort the standard narrative style, try new things. Experiment!
Even while he and I disagreed on a lot of things, he taught me a lot and
exposed me to new and interesting writing. (Mind you, I still think
Gertrude Stein is a fraud.)
I'm just guessing here, but I suspect Richard's teacher is taking the
same approach -- trying to introduce her students to the notion that
there are MANY ways to paint a painting. She's trying to expose them to
new ideas, new challenges, new concepts.
As I listen to Richard rant about how terrible she is, I have this
feeling that some of what she's saying must be slipping in under his
radar. She's having an influence on his thinking, or he wouldn't be
YELLING so loudly about what a horrible teacher she is.
I personally feel, with what little I know about his situation, that he
would benefit from trying out "her way" for a while, even if he despises
it. That doesn't mean he has to love it, so much as try it on and see
how it feels. Later, he can throw all her teaching out the window and
go back to pure realism. But even at that stage, I'm willing to bet
he'll be a better painter for having tried out a different perspective.
Mani Deli
<nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Over time, I realized that he did care about proper punctuation and the
>like -- and spent a few classes covering that -- but wanted to promote a
>different approach to writing in general. One where we can break the
>rules, distort the standard narrative style, try new things. Experiment!
However it would be somewhat different if you never learned how to
punctuate.
> Later, he can throw all her teaching out the window and
>go back to pure realism. But even at that stage, I'm willing to bet
>he'll be a better painter for having tried out a different perspective.
If a teacher wastes your time teaching non-conformaty and you aren't
learning anything much, its the teachers fault.
Most all the teachers in the Bauhaus academy I attended wasted my time
with BS and misinformation. The lettering teacher, a craftsman, who
was the only one who taught me something really useful was later
dismissed.
I 'll never forget the 2d design idiot who started the first day of
class by making the students scribble on paper for the morning in
order as he said, "to loosen our wrists."
I promptly stepped out and went to the library. Weeks later when my 2d
design which was considered best, a paint rag I picked out of the
garbage, the idiot told me I don' take myself seriously enough.
The only really productive thing that resulted from his class was that
they expelled me and I was able to go to another school that taught
something.
Interestingly many of the students I spoke to were aware of the
school's deficiencies. They didn't "rant" nor did they learn much of
anything. This was readily apparent from the work of the third year
students.
...no skill no art!
Want to get away from the indecipherable imbecilities and absurd pretensions of the modern art establishment?
Check out my web page http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
responder has changed.
keith
Nikolaus Maack <nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3DCD20D9...@sympatico.ca...
Nikolaus Maack
"keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com" wrote:
>
> Interesting - not the answer - it's a mother-hood statement - but the
> responder has changed.
There was some technical difficulty in our house. My computer account
disappeared and turned into my girlfriend's account. So I posted a
message and it appeared as from "Michelle R. Tribe". We've since fixed it.
Nikolaus Maack
Mani Deli wrote:
> If a teacher wastes your time teaching non-conformaty and you aren't
> learning anything much, its the teachers fault.
This assumes a rather limited model of education -- the teacher, from
high up on the mount, passes down wisdom to the immature students.
That's not a model I have much faith in.
I prefer the model where the teacher acts as a guide, showing the
students various perspectives and ideas, in order to help the students
formulate their own opinions.
"This is where I have been, what I know, where others have been and what
they know. But I understand I don't know everything, nor do they. Now
formulate your own answers."
Using this model of education, if a student doesn't like what the
teacher is demonstrating, that's fine. However, the student can still
be exposed to a new model, a new way of thinking, and still learn
something from the experience.
> Interestingly many of the students I spoke to were aware of the
> school's deficiencies. They didn't "rant" nor did they learn much of
> anything. This was readily apparent from the work of the third year
> students.
You constantly complain about "the bad old days". Sounds to me like
you're stuck. Why not stop whining about the past, and move on? PAINT
SOMETHING! Anything! Show us what matters to you, and stop mocking
what doesn't.
Why have you given up on art? And yet you can't walk away from it.
You're still here, talking about art. It's like you had a terrible love
affair, and can't stop harping about how badly she treated you. Move
on, Mani. She's gone. You're on your own now. You're no longer in art
school. Stop telling me what a bitch she was.
> Want to get away from the indecipherable imbecilities and absurd pretensions
>of the modern art establishment?
> Check out my web page http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
Your website DOESN'T take us away from these absurdities -- it wallows
in them.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
keith
Nikolaus Maack <nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3DCD78C1...@sympatico.ca...
Mani Deli
>
>Mani Deli wrote:
>> If a teacher wastes your time teaching non-conformaty and you aren't
>> learning anything much, its the teachers fault.
Who's fault do you think it is?
>
>This assumes a rather limited model of education -- the teacher, from
>high up on the mount, passes down wisdom to the immature students.
>That's not a model I have much faith in.
An art teacher of is supposed to pass on useful knowledge of a craft
which the student can use to practice it. The only course where this
was taught in the bullshit academy I mentioned was lettering. At the
end of the course the student had more knowledge and could do better
than at the beginning. He didn't teach himself.
>
>I prefer the model where the teacher acts as a guide, showing the
>students various perspectives and ideas, in order to help the students
>formulate their own opinions.
Who doesn't, But what about knowledge?
>"This is where I have been, what I know, where others have been and what
>they know. But I understand I don't know everything, nor do they. Now
>formulate your own answers."
>
Your work shows how poor your own answers are.
>Using this model of education, if a student doesn't like what the
>teacher is demonstrating, that's fine. However, the student can still
>be exposed to a new model, a new way of thinking, and still learn
>something from the experience.
One goes to school to learn from teachers. Most art teachers fail at
this because they have little knowledge. The proof is in the students
output.
>> Interestingly many of the students I spoke to were aware of the
>> school's deficiencies. They didn't "rant" nor did they learn much of
>> anything. This was readily apparent from the work of the third year
>> students.
>
>You constantly complain about "the bad old days". Sounds to me like
>you're stuck. Why not stop whining about the past, and move on? PAINT
>SOMETHING! Anything! Show us what matters to you, and stop mocking
>what doesn't.
The repetitive incompetent stuff you produce because you learned
little from you teachers will be no better no matter how much you
"move on."
>Why have you given up on art? And yet you can't walk away from it.
Why are you a patronizing ass?
>You're still here, talking about art.
I notice that you are also here.
> It's like you had a terrible love
>affair, and can't stop harping about how badly she treated you.
Consult Fox for the details on psychobabble.
> Move
>on, Mani. She's gone. You're on your own now. You're no longer in art
>school. Stop telling me what a bitch she was.
The reason I answer students about my art school experiences is so
that a few here don't turn out as incompetent as you.
...no skill no art!
Nikolaus Maack
Mani Deli wrote:
> Your work shows how poor your own answers are.
If only there were some of your work, so we could judge your answers in
the same light. But it seems the scars of art school run so deep, you
no longer even paint. Not only that, but you won't even talk about why
you no longer paint. Did it scar you so deeply? Or do you paint but
refuse to share your work? What's the story, Mani?
> The reason I answer students about my art school experiences is so
> that a few here don't turn out as incompetent as you.
I never went to art school. My incompetence is entirely my own.
Richard
The assignment might not be as bad as I thought. It involves
expressive lines, so maybe it could be a Van Gogh type painting. I
just don't want to do any abstract art.
Mani Deli
<nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Mani Deli wrote:
>> Your work shows how poor your own answers are.
>
>If only there were some of your work, so we could judge your answers in
>the same light.
Some of my work is on my web page.
> But it seems the scars of art school run so deep,
Indeed Fox wrote the classic on this and he repeats it occasionally
when he needs to feel a bit better about himself.
>>>>Sour grapes, eh mani? We all know you're bitter about your art-school
>>>>failure, but that doesn't give you the right to crank on people who are on
>>>>the track to the successes that you personally were unable to attain.
I went to all art schools almost tuition free on scholarships. At
university while a chemistry student I attended drawing and Art
history classes. As to art school the first one I attended was a
Bauhaus academy. Although I didn't learn much there I had a great
time. You see, I loved to hang around NYC artzy-fartzies. They were
such a relief from all those rod-up-the-ass squares.
That art school made up for its lack of teaching by providing great
sex, parties and fun company and it was tuition free. Even the
teachers were very nice although most were very ignorant. True, I
annoyed them and they expelled me. One of the best moves I ever made.
I next attended was the Art Students League, a place where one could
learn something if on chose to and where one could avoid teachers one
didn't like. Here it was the students who judged the teacher; no
grades, no bullshit. If you didn't like the teacher you switched to
another.
I even sold some of my work while a student because I had learned some
technique and drawing. I steadily won tuition scholarships and in my
final year I won a McDowell grant to study in Europe. One of the award
jurors who gave me his vote for a big schmier abstraction I did was
the fuhrer of modern academic art at the time, Clement Greenberg. (I
wrote about it in great detail in my book. ---All sour grapes!
No one ever asked me about a degree. Well that sums up my sour grapes
in school. My sour grapes continued after school as I sold my work for
as long as I chose art as a profession.
>you no longer even paint.
I paint most every day.
>Not only that, but you won't even talk about why
>you no longer paint. Did it scar you so deeply? Or do you paint but
>refuse to share your work? What's the story, Mani?
The story is that you never looked at my web site. Check the address
at the bottom.
>
>> The reason I answer students about my art school experiences is so
>> that a few here don't turn out as incompetent as you.
>
>I never went to art school. My incompetence is entirely my own.
>
Most who went to art school are far worse. That's why I comment on the
matter.
Andrew D
+Richard <cool_a...@z.com> wrote:
+> Our incompetent beginning painting teacher is going to require us to
+> paint two paintings using just lines! This is the first assignment
+> where we're required to make abstract "art." In addition, she wants
+> them to be "presented well," by which she means she wants us to shell
+> out more cash to buy frames and mats for this stupid crap! This is a
+> JOKE! I'm getting more and more disgruntled with her. I'm not sure
+> what I'm going to do about these dumb assignments. I think I'm going
+> to have a talk with her.
+
+Your poor teacher, having to put up with someone as close-minded as you.
+ I feel so sorry for her.
Whilst I have serious doubts about Richard, I think there is a general
consensus here that it is all too often the teachers who are close-minded.
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Nikolaus Maack
Mani Deli wrote:
> Some of my work is on my web page.
It's the same stuff that's been there for over a year. If you paint
every day, why isn't there anything new on your site?
> Indeed Fox wrote the classic on this and he repeats it occasionally
> when he needs to feel a bit better about himself.
> >>>>Sour grapes, eh mani? We all know you're bitter about your art-school
> >>>>failure, but that doesn't give you the right to crank on people who are on
> >>>>the track to the successes that you personally were unable to attain.
I disagree with the part about you harping on the successes of others.
I don't think that's why you do it. You don't paint (or don't show what
you paint) for the same reason I have yet to write the great novel
that's contained inside of me -- what's the point in assembling a
masterpiece in a world where Tom Clancy is considered a gifted author?
What's the point in writing in a world where books like "The Celestine
Prophecy" are considered profound?
Why paint something GREAT if they'll hang a dirty rag from your studio
on the wall and charge $800 bucks for it and some retarded fuckwad will
actually PAY for it?
This is a pretty good reason to throw all your brushes away and refuse
to so much as look at a blank canvas ever again.
> I paint most every day.
Show me. I want to see it. And I don't mean this in that whiny, "I
don't believe you and I want to win some stupid Internet argument." I
mean it. Show me that you paint every day. I really, really want to
see that. That, to me, would be more startling, more profound, more
exciting than any silly argument you have written here. Show me that
you paint every day.
I will come to Toronto and see it, if you're willing to show me. No
shit. I will get on a bus and I will go to wherever you are and look at
your stuff. Invite me.
Bernt Oker
right@the_end.of.my_tether says...
>Whilst I have serious doubts about Richard, I think there is a general
>consensus here that it is all too often the teachers who are close-minded.
>
>Andy D.
I realize you have little knowledge of the
USA educational system. Teachers from the
earliest grades through college years are
EXPECTED, indeed REQUIRED to have "teaching
plans." There is some flexibility but generally
the teacher is expected to stick fairly close
to the teaching plan submitted for the semester.
Tenured university professors have much more leeway
generally. But regardless, teachers who have
taught for more than a semester or two generally
know what works and what doesn't as far as
motivating and "teaching" their students.
It's not a matter of being "close-minded" so
much as it is a matter of becoming "stale" from
having to deal semester after semester with
too many students of Richard's ilk! Students
who are pursuing art degrees because they think
it's the easiest route to a college degree that
will satisfy doting parents. Students who have
no interest in "learning" anything - rather they
think of college as "party time" before having
to enter the real workaday world.
Mani Deli
<nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Mani Deli wrote:
>> Some of my work is on my web page.
>
>It's the same stuff that's been there for over a year. If you paint
>every day, why isn't there anything new on your site?
My site is about modern art not my painting. I put in some new
paintings about six months ago but only show because many asked to see
them. I don't consider myself a particularly good artist and write
here mostly because criticism of modern art and its academic aspect
interest and amuse me.
>> I paint most every day.
>
> Show me that you paint every day. I really, really want to
>see that. That, to me, would be more startling, more profound, more
>exciting than any silly argument you have written here. Show me that
>you paint every day.
>
>I will come to Toronto and see it, if you're willing to show me. No
>shit. I will get on a bus and I will go to wherever you are and look at
>your stuff. Invite me.
>
Why not! Just tell me when you want to come and I'll email my address
and phone number.
Mani Deli
>In article <right-11110...@i161-227.nv.iinet.net.au>,
>right@the_end.of.my_tether says...
>
>
>>Whilst I have serious doubts about Richard, I think there is a general
>>consensus here that it is all too often the teachers who are close-minded.
>>
>>Andy D.
He has to change that to "too many art teachers." I suspect it is that
to which he is referring.
Education is among the most important things going. The fact that a
few subjects are usurped by ignorant culties doesn't mean that most
teachers are closed minded.
I would never have gotten anyplace without education.
Andy Dingley
D) wrote:
>all too often the teachers who are close-minded.
In fairness to teachers, they're often working within some hugely
constrictive syllabus guidelines.
The best art schools of the past gave an artist a job as a teacher,
and let them get on with it. Johannes Itter wore robes and converted
students to a mad religion, and yet no-one minded. Today though, it's
more likely to be a department head or principal who is demanding how
things are taught.
Andrew D
Fox) wrote:
+Nikolaus Maack <nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
+
+>
+> When I was taking writing courses at Concordia, I got an experimental,
+> post-modern, philosophical professor named Robert Mazjels, who liked to
+> encourage us to do weird and wild things. He drove me nuts. He'd
+> praise people for their daring to write bizarre experiments, and (I
+> thought) ignore things like proper punctuation.
+>
+> Over time, I realized that he did care about proper punctuation and the
+> like -- and spent a few classes covering that -- but wanted to promote a
+> different approach to writing in general. One where we can break the
+> rules, distort the standard narrative style, try new things. Experiment!
+
+Nik - get a book called Break Every Rule by Carole Maso. It is one of the
+best books on writing I've every read. You'll love it. Worth hunting for.
And yet, I'll bet the book is written in a fairly traditional style with
standard punctuation, spelling and syntax.
Nikolaus Maack
Mani Deli wrote:
> Why not! Just tell me when you want to come and I'll email my address
> and phone number.
Probably will have to be after Xmas some time, given my stupid life.
But I will be taking you up on this.
Mani Deli
I'll be glad to meet you.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
the teacher becomes close-minded
Other than semantics, is there a real significant difference?
keith
Bernt Oker <b...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3dcfb...@oracle.zianet.com...