Reactive site specific introduction
spooky
pull toward generality that postmodernism demands.
Why must narcissists seek definition with words?
The discussions present at this group are a negation of the last forty
years of development in our community. Call backlash backlash, then
remember, then advance.
(do not let a site called arts.fine be embroiled in reactive hyperbola)
Please direct thread toward discussion of postmodernism and our lives in
the postpostmod era.
spooky
Dik F. Liu
Andrew Werby
"spooky" <spoo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7013-3B6...@storefull-628.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Yes, I am asserting my modernist impulse to be an individual despite the
> pull toward generality that postmodernism demands.
> Why must narcissists seek definition with words?
[I give up- why?]
>
> The discussions present at this group are a negation of the last forty
> years of development in our community. Call backlash backlash, then
> remember, then advance.
> (do not let a site called arts.fine be embroiled in reactive hyperbola)
[Perhaps this development, like the other sorts of "progress" that have
occured in the last forty years, has left some people behind. While some of
us equate "newest" with "best", others prefer older modes of artmaking. It's
not uncommon to find people here uncomfortable with the Impressionists, or
those who deny that photography is an art form. From your remarks above, it
sounds like you are having trouble making the transition to Postmodernism
yourself, so you're what- twenty years behind? Fortunately, this is a place
in cyberspace where people from all artistic time-zones can mingle and hash
things out.]
>
> Please direct thread toward discussion of postmodernism and our lives in
> the postpostmod era.
>
> spooky
>
[Okay, what about it? How has your life changed since the death of
Postmodernism, and how are you accomodating the advent of the Post-Post or
whatever era? Or are you still in denial?]
Andrew Werby
http://unitedartworks.com
spooky
Re: Reactive site specific introduction
(Response to:
dre...@home.com (Andrew Werby)
[Why must narcissists seek definition with words?
[I give up- why?]]
re: I must apologize for the lack of clarity in this statement. Often
while talking of art with my friends we refer to artists as narcissists.
This view is fundamental in the history of art, from cave hand paintings
(I am here), to greek sculpture (I see and recreate), to Rembrants self
portraiture ( I reveal). to Valasques (I am equal to kings).
The artists seeks a measure of self by the manipulation of mater. The
critic, in the same way, uses words. We do not use the term
"narcissist" in a negative way but with understanding that it is a
healthy response to ones environment.
[The discussions present at this group are a negation of the last forty
years of development in our community.
[Perhaps this development, like the other sorts of "progress" that have
occurred in the last forty years, has left some people behind. While
some of us equate "newest" with "best", others prefer older modes of
artmaking.
Re: I hope that are are not implying that I am placing a judgement of
merit, or stating that "progress" (your word) is requisite of
development. In my view there is no distinction between the art an
individual values or art that society values as a whole, there are
simply themes placed within a historical context. Tastes of the masses
may change but an artwork remains in stasis after it leaves the artists
hand (or mind).
[It's not uncommon to find people here uncomfortable with the
Impressionists, or those who deny that photography is an art form.]
re: In a real way impressionism is a response to photography, the
advent of which freed painters to explore beyond pictorial
representation. To those that deny the photographic impact I say they
need take a trip from their studios to spend some time at the library.
[From your remarks above, it sounds like you are having trouble making
the transition to Postmodernism yourself, so you're what- twenty years
behind?]
Re: In my view the entire art community is having trouble. There has
not, and probably should not, be clearcut definition. The main tread of
postmodernism is the artist within society, how does society influence
the creative process, and how does the artist cope in an arena bombarded
with the images of popular culture. In the tradition of past humanist
artists the postmodernist uses themselves as media to focus ideas and
methods of the culture around them.
[Fortunately, this is a place in cyberspace where people from all
artistic time-zones can mingle and hash things out.]
Re: Yes, fortunately we have this forum. I am new to the web and
discussion groups and while searching found little substantive groups.
Most art sites are geared toward homecraft. I am concerned that this
group seems to be dominated by a single poster with a fairly narrow and
negative scope toward art.
[Please direct thread toward discussion of postmodernism and our lives
in the postpostmod era.
[Okay, what about it? How has your life changed since the death of
Postmodernism, and how are you accommodating the advent of the Post-Post
or whatever era? Or are you still in denial?]
Re: I have not seen the obituary of postmodernism. Did it die? If so,
when?
In birthing post-post? Why do you need finality? There are artists
working today in "older modes" (your words), artists working in a
modernist vein, some post mods, and now with the advent of the net and
online galleries, postpostmodernists. They all can and do exist
concurrently. If i can give this development a definition or manifesto
it would be "No more art stars". Artists today are uncomfortable with
celebrity and feel it jeopardizes creativity. We have witnessed the
corporate takeover of our schools, galleries, museums, and individuals.
We have seen art reduced to commodity to be exchanged like stocks, the
collector speculating with only profit or tax breaks in mind. The
artist coping in this environment choses to exhibit somewhat obscurely
with online galleries or by joining collectives, seeking collaboration.
spooky
Andrew Werby
To: "spooky" <spoo...@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Reactive site specific introduction
Date: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:25 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "spooky" <spoo...@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.fine
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Reactive site specific introduction
Re: Reactive site specific introduction
(Response to:
dre...@home.com (Andrew Werby)
Why must narcissists seek definition with words?
[I give up- why?]]
re: I must apologize for the lack of clarity in this statement. Often
while talking of art with my friends we refer to artists as narcissists.
This view is fundamental in the history of art, from cave hand paintings
(I am here), to greek sculpture (I see and recreate), to Rembrants self
portraiture ( I reveal). to Valasques (I am equal to kings).
The artists seeks a measure of self by the manipulation of mater. The
critic, in the same way, uses words. We do not use the term
"narcissist" in a negative way but with understanding that it is a
healthy response to ones environment.
[Thanks for the explanation, but I must respectfully disagree with this
characterization of the artist's role. The artist's job, in my view, is to
hold up a mirror to the world- not to his or her own face. It's true that
much contemporary art is extremely self-referential, not to say
self-absorbed or self-indulgent, but that may be the focus turning inward,
in the face of massive indifference from the outside world.]
The discussions present at this group are a negation of the last forty
years of development in our community.
[Perhaps this development, like the other sorts of "progress" that have
occurred in the last forty years, has left some people behind. While
some of us equate "newest" with "best", others prefer older modes of
artmaking.]
Re: I hope that are are not implying that I am placing a judgement of
merit, or stating that "progress" (your word) is requisite of
development. In my view there is no distinction between the art an
individual values or art that society values as a whole, there are
simply themes placed within a historical context.
[All I can do is deplore this sort of thinking. If you can't see a
difference between an individual act of aesthetic enthusiasm and a massive
social endorsement of some sort of art, then no work of art is going to have
any meaning for you until long after it ceases to matter. What are you, an
art-history major? It sounds like you're well on your way to becoming a
museum curator.]
Tastes of the masses
may change but an artwork remains in stasis after it leaves the artists
hand (or mind).
[If archival materials were used...]
[It's not uncommon to find people here uncomfortable with the
Impressionists, or those who deny that photography is an art form.]
re: In a real way impressionism is a response to photography, the
advent of which freed painters to explore beyond pictorial
representation. To those that deny the photographic impact I say they
need take a trip from their studios to spend some time at the library.
[That's what the books tend to say, I've read them too. But how does that
help you to see a painting, let alone make a judgement as to its merit? Oh,
I forgot- you don't do judgements, and you don't believe in artistic merit-
just the "art that society values as a whole". Maybe it's time to get out of
the library (or classroom?) and into the studio...]
[From your remarks above, it sounds like you are having trouble making
the transition to Postmodernism yourself, so you're what- twenty years
behind?]
Re: In my view the entire art community is having trouble. There has
not, and probably should not, be clearcut definition. The main tread of
postmodernism is the artist within society, how does society influence
the creative process, and how does the artist cope in an arena bombarded
with the images of popular culture.
[So what are your ideas for getting the art community out of its troubles?]
In the tradition of past humanist
artists the postmodernist uses themselves as media to focus ideas and
methods of the culture around them.
[So the ideal postmodern artist is transparent, and slightly convex?]
[Fortunately, this is a place in cyberspace where people from all
artistic time-zones can mingle and hash things out.]
Re: Yes, fortunately we have this forum. I am new to the web and
discussion groups and while searching found little substantive groups.
Most art sites are geared toward homecraft. I am concerned that this
group seems to be dominated by a single poster with a fairly narrow and
negative scope toward art.
[Don't worry about it. We are lucky to have at least one person untiringly
willing to provoke discussion on basic issues, which are too important to
let slide. Articulating ones artistic viewpoint is easier if there is
another viewpoint to oppose, just as light images stand out better against a
dark background than against a muddy one. ]
Please direct thread toward discussion of postmodernism and our lives
in the postpostmod era.
[Okay, what about it? How has your life changed since the death of
Postmodernism, and how are you accommodating the advent of the Post-Post
or whatever era? Or are you still in denial?]
Re: I have not seen the obituary of postmodernism. Did it die? If so,
when? In birthing post-post? Why do you need finality? There are artists
working today in "older modes" (your words), artists working in a
modernist vein, some post mods, and now with the advent of the net and
online galleries, postpostmodernists. They all can and do exist
concurrently.
[We agree on this, if nothing else. There are folks doing everything from
petroglyphs to cyberart hanging out around here. I never declared
Postmodernism dead, but I gathered you thought so from your remarks above.
How could something die that was never alive in the first place? No artists
ever got together and called themselves Postmodernists, no Postmodern
manifesto was ever proclaimed, and nobody has a very clear idea of what it's
supposed to stand for. It's a label some academic types came up with after
the fact for a very mixed bag of artistic product. They had no idea what to
call it, but since it didn't seem to conform to the relatively coherent
dicta of Modernism, they settled on Postmodernism. Now, with even less
definition to react against, at least some have proclaimed that we're in a
new era, which must be Post-post. (I hope they think of something else
before we get to Post-post-post.)]
If i can give this development a definition or manifesto
it would be "No more art stars". Artists today are uncomfortable with
celebrity and feel it jeopardizes creativity. We have witnessed the
corporate takeover of our schools, galleries, museums, and individuals.
We have seen art reduced to commodity to be exchanged like stocks, the
collector speculating with only profit or tax breaks in mind. The
artist coping in this environment choses to exhibit somewhat obscurely
with online galleries or by joining collectives, seeking collaboration.
spooky
[What utter nonsense. Artists are not exactly rejecting celebrity- it just
hasn't come knocking on our doors. The only art the brick-and-mortar
galleries are interested in comes from people whose names are recognized.
The museums aren't interested unless one has been successful in the
galleries. That's why the rest of us are exhibiting online, or in obscure
venues, like the dismal collective galleries where one has to take turns
minding the "store" where nothing is ever sold. If you hear artists
complaining about "art stars", that's envy speaking, not a revolution in
consciousness.]
Andrew Werby
mdeli
seems to mean:
-never compare works of art
-never point out details
-never criticize a lack of technique, bad drawing, or imbecilic
childishness
-never label anything as a put-on
-never tell people to look closely at floor covering and towel design
lest they get doubts about what's allowed into museums.
-and above all never never criticize or laugh at anything done by the
holy fathers of Modern Academic Art, lest you OFFEND the Modern Art
Fundamentalist and perhaps get him to think.
...no skill no art
Modern Academic Art is incompetence in search of an idea.
Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page!