Posting NA/MA ideas...
J J Spitzer
How 'bout this for an interesting thread-type thing...
Posting everyone's story ideas of NA/MA's that have benn rejected, never
sent in, or abandoned half-way through. I'm sure people would be
interested in stories that pros :) like Dan, Kate and Craig have had
rejected, as well as stories from us commoners :). Someone commented that
Virgin has to let really good stories go so they can fit in an excellent
one.
We could post them here or on alt.drwho.creative. Anything from brief
sysnopsisss (sysnopses?), to whole chapters would be good.
Also, if someone sees an idea that he/she thinks they can expland on or
improve, he/she could contact the person who original posted the idea
and help them write it, or ask to write it by themselves or whatever...
I think we can trust each other not to steal each others' ideas (If you
don't think you can, then don't post)
I'm pretty sure this newsgroup could come up with plenty of partnerships
that would result in good NA/MA's.
Max Spitzer
(witty sig forthcoming)
Kate Orman
>Posting everyone's story ideas of NA/MA's that have benn rejected, never
>sent in, or abandoned half-way through. I'm sure people would be
>interested in stories that pros :) like Dan, Kate and Craig have had
>rejected, as well as stories from us commoners :). Someone commented that
>Virgin has to let really good stories go so they can fit in an excellent
>one.
Nice idea... but I recycle! :-)
--
Kate Orman at Macquarie University Library
zebras are reactionaries / antelopes are missionaries
D R Blythe
Like Kate, I tend to take the best bits of unused ideas and work them
back in, in a different context. Some aspects of my rejected synopsis
were re-used as Virgin were really keen on the ideas but felt they didn't
fit into that plot. I'm happy to discuss reasons why they don't like things,
etc, but it might spoil Infinite Requiem to post old summaries.
Dan B
Craig Hinton
ideas. The central part of my rejected submission has already been recycled
into a proposal called 'Rapture', which might eventually make its way to
Virgin. And might get rejected again. Who knows?
To be honest, though, these submissions were rejected - perhaps they should
be left to rest in peace?
By the way, time to blow my own trumpet re the Crystal Bucephalus - saw the
cover this morning. Alistair Pearson has done an absolutely magnificent job, and I
am totally chuffed by it. Just hope the book can live up to it... :-)
Craig
******************************************************************
Craig P Hinton - crag...@ibm.vnet.com
******************************************************************
R. Dan Henry
>From: ge93...@sunc.sheffield.ac.uk (D R Blythe)
>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>Date: 10 Jun 1994 11:25:03 GMT
>Like Kate, I tend to take the best bits of unused ideas and work them
>back in, in a different context. Some aspects of my rejected synopsis
>were re-used as Virgin were really keen on the ideas but felt they didn't
>fit into that plot. I'm happy to discuss reasons why they don't like things,
>etc, but it might spoil Infinite Requiem to post old summaries.
Well, just tell us your really BAD ideas! So we'll know what not to do.
* R. Dan Henry, Dept. of Philosophy, UC Riverside *
* rdh...@ucrac1.ucr.edu * "Strange Dan" the Wereduck*
* "Can I still get an A if I only answered half the *
* questions?" - student, at end of final *
R. Dan Henry
>From: crag...@vnet.ibm.com (Craig Hinton)
>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>To be honest, though, these submissions were rejected - perhaps they should
>be left to rest in peace?
Rejected ONCE and not submitted elsewhere because they really couldn't be.
No real proof that they're not good. Most published novels have been
rejected a few times before they get purchased.
R J Atkinson
entries so they can reject the good ones in favour of the excellent...
That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
"excellent". I think it's a bit pretentious to suggest that what we're
getting is the creme de la creme, just because Virgin get bombarded with
loads of crap written by over-zealous fans (present company accepted). OK,
so a lot of fans may be practised writers, but I reckon that the vast
majority of stuff they get is from fans who simply think they'll have a go
at writing a novel.
When, I put down a NA and think that was one of the most incredible things
I've ever read, I'll believe you. Go on someone, surprise me. I don't mean
to offend anyone; I'm not against fans trying to write good DW fiction,
but I just think that on the odd occassion it'd be nice to have something
from someone who actually wrote for the series (in addition to Terrance
and Ben before anyone points them out) especially now the MAs are coming
out. Nick at ukc said that a lot of those people weren't practised enough
at writing prose, but I'm sure some are good enough to present strong plot
ideas.
What do you think?
Richard
--
"Good: now he's gone is there any chance of a cup of tea?"
Richard Atkinson: R.J.At...@durham.ac.uk
d3f...@altair.dur.ac.uk
Jennikatra
<R.J.At...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
>Yes, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Virgin get a lot of
entries so they can reject the good ones in favour of the
excellent...
>That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
"excellent". I think it's a bit pretentious to suggest that what
we're getting is the creme de la creme, just because Virgin get
bombarded with loads of crap written by over-zealous fans (present
I have to say that I *would* call at least Left-Handed Hummingbird
"excellent." I'm not saying that to get in favor with Kate. :-) It's
just MHO, formed before I met Kate on the net. Maybe it's sexism: in
US fandom, the majority of fanzine writers are female, and I've read
some stuff that would slaughter some of the male contributions to the
NAs easily. ;-) <evil chuckle> Hummer reminded me of some of the best
thereof that I've read.
As for all the NAs allegedly being the elite, ohh... :-p Hah! :-)
Seriously, if anyone felt that The Pit was creme de la creme, they
didn't have very high standards. Only MHO, of course.
>When I put down a NA and think that was one of the most incredible
things I've ever read, I'll believe you. Go on someone, surprise me.
That description of the reaction you'd like to feel is exactly what I
felt while/after reading Hummer. Maybe because I loved what was
written about, learning about the Aztecs being an interest of mine,
and Kate researched Aztec culture/lore so well. Maybe because I love
the idea of a psychic vampire who could put the Doctor through hell.
Maybe because I wanted to see a story in which the Doctor got trashed
like that, in the great tradition of female zine writers in the US
trashing their favorite male characters to an inch of their lives,
but their recovering to win through. ;-)
>I just think that on the odd occasion it'd be nice to have something
from someone who actually wrote for the series (in addition to
Terrance and Ben before anyone points them out)
Don't forget Marc Platt (he of Ghost Light, who wrote Time's
Crucible). How about people otherwise involved, such as Andrew
Cartmel (whose Warhead I hated, though!) or Nigel Robinson (I didn't
like his Apocalypse much, though Birthright seemed okay)?
There's also the Cyberleader himself, David Banks; pity that, IMHO,
his Iceberg wasn't "Excellent!" :-)
Now please, no one think I'm flaming Richard! I'm not, RJ, all right?
;-)
RSHadley / Jen
jenni...@aol.com
--Freaked, flaked, frazzled, fragged...
Jonathan Blum
><R.J.At...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
>>That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
>"excellent". I think it's a bit pretentious to suggest that what
>we're getting is the creme de la creme, just because Virgin get
>bombarded with loads of crap written by over-zealous fans (present
>company excepted).
>I have to say that I *would* call at least Left-Handed Hummingbird
>"excellent." I'm not saying that to get in favor with Kate. :-) It's
>just MHO, formed before I met Kate on the net.
I would second that, as well as adding that there were a couple other of
NA's which I would also call Just Plain Damn Good SF. "Love and War" tops
the list -- I've recommended it even to non-Who fans, and they've liked it.
"White Darkness" too seems to withstand the test of re-readings. And while
"Timewyrm: Revelation" is much more "fannish", in that it requires a strong
knowledge of series trivia to get all its meanings, the way it plays with
these series concepts is fascinating. That's just a short list of the
books I've walked away from going "Ooh."
>Maybe it's sexism: in
>US fandom, the majority of fanzine writers are female, and I've read
>some stuff that would slaughter some of the male contributions to the
>NAs easily. ;-) <evil chuckle> Hummer reminded me of some of the best
>thereof that I've read.
On the other hand, NA's in general have reminded me of a lot of the "crap"
tendencies of fanfic as well -- they assume that familiarity with the series
and its references is enough to keep the reader interested through stretches
of lackluster characterization and poor prose. Sometimes they see the series
as a set of boundaries to keep within, rather than a set of concepts to toy
with and reassemble in new ways. And conversely, sometimes they're so
concerned with telling the writer's own whacked-out tale that they end up
bearing absolutely no resemblance to what makes Who interesting. (Three
words: Erotic Who Fiction. *urk*) I've seen all these faults in my own
writing, and I try my best to avoid them. I just hope other writers can
avoid them too.
I like well-written fanfic. I just think that the NA's should be well-written
NOVELS in their own right, with more of a reason to be read than simple
self-indulgence on the author's part. This doesn't preclude them using all
the fannish elements they want... as long as they use them intelligently.
I don't know if the distinction I'm making makes any sense, as it's getting
rather late here, but feel free to argue it either way...
>Maybe because I wanted to see a story in which the Doctor got trashed
>like that, in the great tradition of female zine writers in the US
>trashing their favorite male characters to an inch of their lives,
>but their recovering to win through. ;-)
Ohhhh boy, you're gonna love "Time Rift" part 4... *evil grin* The whole
idea behind the end section of this story -- which incidentally was plotted
by a male -- is to hit the Doctor with as many emotional hammer-blows as we
can. (Plus a few physical ones, just for variety. :-) We try to strip
away everything he has to lean on, to see if he can still justify himself
in what he does. Whether he can still go on with it.
The thing is, in this example, it's not just simple hurt/comfort. The
story has larger themes of which the characterization is just a part --
"Time Rift" exists for more than just a chance to bash hell out of our
favorite characters. :-) "Hummer" was similar, in that the angst and
suffering wasn't just that of the regulars, but part of a pattern of
violence which was larger than any of us. And the web of metaphor in
books like "Revelation" makes these characters' travails have meaning,
totally aside from the fact that these people appeared in a TV series.
(PS: I'm definitely not trying to claim that "Time Rift" will be in the
same league as these books I mention. I'm already seeing things wrong in
the script -- things shot last year at this time, which I would change if
I had the chance. Plot points which reduce the universal themes to the
level of series references. But even with the murkiness, there's something
there which, if we can pull it off, will make this story worth telling.)
(The preceding thoughts are brought to you because of the fact that today,
June 12th, marks the one-year anniversary of the first day of shooting on
"Time Rift". This thing has been an overwhelming part of my life for a long
time now. And I'm looking forward to sharing it with you. Real Soon Now.)
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
R J Atkinson
room-mate who said he likes DW but isn't a fan has been reading my NAs and
I got 'Love and War' posted up so he could read it; after all he
persevered all the way through 'Transit'. I'd also agree with Jon about
'White Darkness' which is one of my favourites. I think that the novels
give an opportunity for character analysis (Conundrum's "16 pages of
psychoanalysing"?) but what I find often occurs to me when reading -
sinful though it is - is whether I could picture it on screen as a DW
story. 'White Darkness' definitely has what it takes to work on screen,
whereas a lot of the other ones work (and often extrememly well) as books
and I don't think they'd translate at all. In a way I think perhaps part
of what a novel is trying to acheive is to help you visual scenes, and
with the NAs surely we're meant to visualize McCoy (can anyone still
visualize Sophie playing Ace?). Just to add my four penneth (2c?) I just
like to add that the amongst my favourite NAs I'd place, quite oddly,
'Warhead' which, although having the flaw of being rather aimless in its
progression from one scenario to another, I thought had a good
atmosphere. I think perhaps in those days I was feeling fresh and unjaded
about the NAs and it was quite relieving after 'Time's Crucible'!
Nevertheless, the early passages with Ace, and the scenes with the Doctor
in the library gave a strong impression of what the places were like. In
some ways we were given a view of the Doctor that was to develop in
subsequent novels. What is happening to him?
As for 'the Left-Handed Hummingbird', well, I had mixed feelings about
that, but I don't think I have time to go into it now.
Absorbing, inventive novels: yes. Excellent? Well... possibly.
No-one have anything to say on the subject of DW script-writers
contributing to the NA/MA?
My love to you all-
Richard.
ups3003
<<<<Loads of stuff deleted>>>>
: (The preceding thoughts are brought to you because of the fact that today,
: June 12th, marks the one-year anniversary of the first day of shooting on
: "Time Rift". This thing has been an overwhelming part of my life for a long
: time now. And I'm looking forward to sharing it with you. Real Soon Now.)
Oh good, because your .sig and what you've said about Time Rift have got me
quite curious about it. Can't wait to find out more.
Karl Thurgood.
Jennikatra
Blum) writes:
>>jenni...@aol.com (Jennikatra) writes:
>>I have to say that I *would* call at least Left-Handed Hummingbird
"excellent."
"Timewyrm: Revelation" is much more "fannish", in that it requires a
strong knowledge of series trivia to get all its meanings, the way it
plays with these series concepts is fascinating.
I love Revelation, too. It's the surrealism of being in a Time Lord's
mind, the telepathic realm. Dancing with Death, as seen on the cover
-- I love that. :-)
>"Love and War" tops the list -- I've recommended it even to non-Who
fans, and they've liked it.
Love and War is another favorite of mine. I've heard enough
complaints about it to realize that there are people out there who
consider it garbage, and that's just too bad. ;-)
I also enjoy No Future. Obviously, I get a kick out of Paul Cornell.
:-)
>On the other hand, NA's in general have reminded me of a lot of the
"crap" tendencies of fanfic as well -- they assume that familiarity
with the series and its references is enough to keep the reader
interested through stretches of lackluster characterization and poor
prose.
You're right about that. Still, the worst prose yet I can think of
was in The Pit. :-p However, since I usually understand the
references that the writers like dropping everywhere, it doesn't
really bother me. Though I can understand why it would bother others.
>And conversely, sometimes they're so concerned with telling the
writer's own whacked-out tale that they end up bearing absolutely no
resemblance to what makes Who interesting. (Three words: Erotic Who
Fiction. *urk*)
Pardon while I giggle at that. :-) I agree: *urk*! Thankfully, we've
been spared the Doctor doing that in the NAs, though who knows what
might happen eventually...
>I like well-written fanfic. I just think that the NA's should be
well-written NOVELS in their own right, with more of a reason to be
read than simple self-indulgence on the author's part.
I agree. While there are some that seem too self-indulgent, they
don't all fall into that trap, though some like to think they do.
(For example, in DWM, there's a person who's writing in to attack
Paul Cornell at every opportunity: very annoying.)
>Ohhhh boy, you're gonna love "Time Rift" part 4... *evil grin* The
whole idea behind the end section of this story -- which incidentally
was plotted by a male -- is to hit the Doctor with as many emotional
hammer-blows as we can. (Plus a few physical ones, just for variety.
:-)
Why, thank you, Jon! ;-) Ah, by the way, when I said most of the
fanfic I've read is written by women, that's the truth, but I wasn't
excluding all males from the practice. I'm sure men can do it, too.
:-)
>"Time Rift" exists for more than just a chance to bash hell out of
our favorite characters. :-)
I'm sure it does. :-) Don't worry, I like a bit more depth than just
hurt-comfort for the sake of it.
> ...today, June 12th, marks the one-year anniversary of the first
day of shooting on "Time Rift". This thing has been an overwhelming
part of my life for a long time now. And I'm looking forward to
sharing it with you. Real Soon Now.)
I'm looking forward to seeing it. :-) Thank you.
Jennikatra
<R.J.At...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
>I think that the novels give an opportunity for character analysis
(Conundrum's "16 pages of psychoanalysing"?) but what I find often
occurs to me when reading - sinful though it is - is whether I could
picture it on screen as a DW story.
I like the opportunity for psychoanalyzing, though even I admit that
the NAs can carry it too far. :-) Ace has been put through a bit too
much.
The point to the NAs is that they were supposed to go beyond what can
be seen on TV. The book that seems most like a televised DW story,
Tragedy Day, is surprisingly not really close to being a favorite for
me. Probably stuck in the middle somewhere. MHO, of course. :-)
>'White Darkness' definitely has what it takes to work on screen,
whereas a lot of the other ones work (and often extrememly well) as
books and I don't think they'd translate at all.
True. As a friend told me, imagine the horrible special effects if
anyone tried to film Revelation. :-)
>...with the NAs surely we're meant to visualize McCoy (can anyone
still visualize Sophie playing Ace?).
I can still see the Doctor as the Doctor, though many people seem to
think otherwise. Hmm, I must be strange. ;-) Actually ... yes, I can
see an older Aldred playing Ace, though I'd rather not. Hah. :-)
>I just like to add that amongst my favourite NAs I'd place, quite
oddly, 'Warhead' which, although having the flaw of being rather
aimless in its progression from one scenario to another, I thought
had a good atmosphere.
Interesting. It doesn't work for me, partly because Cartmel seemed to
be trying too hard to be writing as William Gibson. Shrug. I'm
interested in Gibson's work, but Cartmel's attempt is very near the
bottom of my NA preference list. Again, shrug. :-)
>No-one have anything to say on the subject of DW script-writers
contributing to the NA/MA?
I'd like to see the reverse: Kate Orman and Paul Cornell writing for
the series, should it ever be back on TV. ;-)
R J Atkinson
Kate Orman
>That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
>"excellent".
How about Iceberg? :-)
Bart lammey
: >That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
: >"excellent".
: How about Iceberg? :-)
Who else here thinks that Cyberleaders work too hard in trying to find
Earth's weaknesses by watching hours and hours of Wayne's World and Bill
and Ted's _Excellent_ Adventure?
: "Party on, Cyberleader."
"Exellent." --
R. Dan Henry
>From: kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Kate Orman)
>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>>That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
>>"excellent".
>How about Iceberg? :-)
Nope. I like it, but sadly, I can only offer a "pretty good", not the
cyberesque "excellent". The editing could have been better, too, and while
the silly method of defeating the Cybermen fit with tradition, I'd have
hoped for something a bit more realistic.
R. Dan Henry
>From: kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Kate Orman)
>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>Date: 14 Jun 1994 03:57:48 GMT
>How about Iceberg? :-)
It's the least nutritious lettuce.
Sonja E. Mendoza
: Yes, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Virgin get a lot of
: That said, even though the NAs are good, I'd hardly call any of them
: "excellent". I think it's a bit pretentious to suggest that what we're
: getting is the creme de la creme, just because Virgin get bombarded with
: loads of crap written by over-zealous fans (present company accepted). OK,
: so a lot of fans may be practised writers, but I reckon that the vast
: majority of stuff they get is from fans who simply think they'll have a go
: at writing a novel.
Well, I think the quality of the NA's has been steadily improving. The
lastest run of NA's (from the Dimension Riders through Legacy) hasn't
had a single clunker. That is probably due to Virgin being able to pick and
choose the best.
: When, I put down a NA and think that was one of the most incredible things
: I've ever read, I'll believe you. Go on someone, surprise me. I don't mean
I'm not sure it's fair to compare the NA's, books done based on a television
series, with the greatest works of fiction or even science fiction (I know
that's not exactly what you said). I certainly don't think that the NA's
are the most incredible things I've ever read either, but then the
Doctor Who series is not the greatest television program I've ever seen
(it's had great and bad moments, just like the NA's).
However, some of the NA's are certainly worth my personal time to read,
because there have been some very, very good one's (of course, I've wasted
my time on some of them, too). I also would be thrilled if an NA turns
out some day to be one of the most incredible things I've ever read,
because that would be beyond my expectations.
: to offend anyone; I'm not against fans trying to write good DW fiction,
: but I just think that on the odd occassion it'd be nice to have something
: from someone who actually wrote for the series (in addition to Terrance
: and Ben before anyone points them out) especially now the MAs are coming
Terrance Dicks' only foray into the NA's, _Exodus_, was very well received
by the fans here, but Ben Aaronovitch, Andrew Cartmel, and Marc Platt's
entries into the NA series were some of the most controversial, and
generally not well received. Cartmel's _Warhead_ was very unpopular
with the majority of the fans, and Aaronovitch's _Transit_ didn't fair
much better.
All in all, some of the best books that have come out of the NA's have
been written by fans. I'd say they have done a better job overall than
the Dr. Who contributers.
What Who script writers would folks around here like to see tackle an NA?
: What do you think?
my 0.02 :)
Sonja
--some...@nmsu.edu
R. Dan Henry
>From: some...@nmsu.edu (Sonja E. Mendoza)
>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>What Who script writers would folks around here like to see tackle an NA?
Can we resurrect Robert Holmes?
Christopher D. Heer
>In article <2tfhgb$7...@dns1.NMSU.Edu> some...@nmsu.edu (Sonja E. Mendoza) writes:
>>From: some...@nmsu.edu (Sonja E. Mendoza)
>>Subject: Re: Posting NA/MA ideas...
>>Date: 12 Jun 1994 17:43:39 GMT
>>What Who script writers would folks around here like to see tackle an NA?
>Can we resurrect Robert Holmes?
Pip and Jane! No, I'm kidding, of course. Um. . . Chris Bidmead, 'cept he's
already said he won't do one. Um. . . Terrance Dicks! No, wait, he's already
doing them. . . um. . . oh, hell, I'll vote for Holmes!
--
Christopher D. Heer -- ch...@isisph.com -- Not just cheer. . . all TempaCheer!
Isis Pharmaceuticals: where a drug | My opinions are mine, not Isis'.
can be a drug! | Unless they license them, of course.
Jonathan Blum
>>>What Who script writers would folks around here like to see tackle an NA?
Eric Saward. Ian Briggs. Hell, Douglas Adams. (We can dream...)
Brandie Tarvin
Who was it that wrote "Full Circle"? A fan, if I recall correctly. I liked
his stuff. Maybe he'd do a good job on an NA/MA...
Brandie T.
--
:-0 :-0 "The Master has a plan so evil, you could stick a plunger in it
:-0 :-0 and call it a Dalek!" - A. Nonymous
~~~~~~~~~ "Every afternoon a sugar cube dealer would slowly cruise the corral
looking for 'customers'" - The Far Side...
D R Blythe
: Who was it that wrote "Full Circle"? A fan, if I recall correctly. I liked
: his stuff. Maybe he'd do a good job on an NA/MA...
It was Andrew Smith. He submitted further scripts but nothing else was
accepted. He seems to have disappeared - I liked "Full Circle" and the
novelisation, so I'd be interested if anyone knows what has become
of him.
Dan
Jennikatra
I'd be interested to know if the Andrew Smith seen complaining that
the NAs are garbage in last year's DWM poll results is the same
Andrew Smith who wrote "Full Circle." Hmmm... So, if it happened to
be him, sounds like he'd rather not bother. Maybe someone should dare
him to do better, though. :-)
RSHadley / Jen
jenni...@aol.com
--Gone crazy. Be back later.
Louise Dennis
# I'd be interested to know if the Andrew Smith seen complaining that
# the NAs are garbage in last year's DWM poll results is the same
# Andrew Smith who wrote "Full Circle." Hmmm... So, if it happened to
# be him, sounds like he'd rather not bother. Maybe someone should dare
# him to do better, though. :-)
#
# RSHadley / Jen
# jenni...@aol.com
# --Gone crazy. Be back later.
I don't think so. I know that particular Andrew Smith and he's never
mentioned writing Full Circle. He thinks Dr Who started the downhill
slide when it changed to colour episodes, so I would definately be
surprised. I could ask him though next time I see him.
Louise Dennis
Carson Maynard
: What Who script writers would folks around here like to see tackle an NA?
I would *love* to see Pip and Jane Baker write an NA...their writing
style was very fresh, IMHO.
Carson Maynard :>
--
Carson Maynard :>
---
"You should've come into the wooh-tah wif us...then we'd've beeeeen togevuh!"
-- Jean and Phyllis, Doctor Who: "The Curse of Fenric"