How many Masters?
Hand-of-Omega
also factor in the (surprisingly few) appearances made in the novels?
Dex
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> How many on-screen incarnations has the Master had? How many, if we
> also factor in the (surprisingly few) appearances made in the novels?
On screen we have:
The Delgado incarnation
The "mummified" incarnation
The Ainley incarnation
The Gordon Tipple incarnation (start of the TVM)
The Roberts incarnation
Professor Yana
Harry Saxon
You may or may not choose to count the Pryce incarnation from "The Curse
of Fatal Death".
Adding in the novels we get:
Koschei ("The Dark Path" and "Divided Loyalties", prior to all on screen
incarnations)
The Rathbone incarnation ("First Frontier" and "Happy Endings", between
Ainley and Tipple)
The Magistrate ("The Infinity Doctors", anyone's guess)
And, just for completeness, Big Finish gives us:
The Jacobi incarnation ("Scream of the Shalka", alternate Ninth Doctor)
The mummified incarnation, redux ("Dust Breeding" and "Master", *also*
between Ainley and Tipple)
The "Kisgart" incarnation ("Sympathy For The Devil", "Unbound" alternate
universe)
--
Dave
"All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
The Doctor
Roger Delgado / Peter Pratt / one other
then Anthony Ainley
then the resureected Sir Jacobi.
Who is the current one?
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
For the latest World News go to http://www.cuttingedge.org/
Stephen O'Connell
> In article
> <41e8baf2-eb71-42eb...@a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Hand-of-Omega <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> How many on-screen incarnations has the Master had?
>
The "one other" was Geoffrey Beevers
> then Anthony Ainley, then the resureected Sir Jacobi.
>
> Who is the current one?
John Simm
--
Stevo
Hand-of-Omega
wrote:
> On 08 Oct 2009, Hand-of-Omega <handofom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How many on-screen incarnations has the Master had? How many, if we
> > also factor in the (surprisingly few) appearances made in the novels?
>
> On screen we have:
> The Delgado incarnation
> The "mummified" incarnation
> The Ainley incarnation
> The Gordon Tipple incarnation (start of the TVM)
> The Roberts incarnation
> Professor Yana
> Harry Saxon
>
Lords to fight in the War...Was that the Yana incarnation, or did he
regenerate into that to make his disguise complete (he was always
rather spendrift with his regenerations)?
> You may or may not choose to count the Pryce incarnation from "The Curse
> of Fatal Death".
>
> Adding in the novels we get:
> Koschei ("The Dark Path" and "Divided Loyalties", prior to all on screen
> incarnations)
> The Rathbone incarnation ("First Frontier" and "Happy Endings", between
> Ainley and Tipple)
Can we say for certain that the Rathbone (why's he called that?) is
not the same as Tipple?
> The Magistrate ("The Infinity Doctors", anyone's guess)
>
What about the Master's appearance in Adventuress of Henrietta Street?
Dex
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> On Oct 8, 6:17 pm, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> On 08 Oct 2009, Hand-of-Omega <handofom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > How many on-screen incarnations has the Master had? How many, if we
>> > also factor in the (surprisingly few) appearances made in the
>> > novels?
>>
>> On screen we have:
>> The Delgado incarnation
>> The "mummified" incarnation
>> The Ainley incarnation
>> The Gordon Tipple incarnation (start of the TVM)
>> The Roberts incarnation
>> Professor Yana
>> Harry Saxon
>>
> Between Roberts and Yana, the Master was "resurrected" by the Time
> Lords to fight in the War...Was that the Yana incarnation, or did he
> regenerate into that to make his disguise complete (he was always
> rather spendrift with his regenerations)?
We don't know. It could be he was ressurected as Yana; it could be he
regenerated prior to using the Chameleon Arch; it even could be that he
went through several regenerations during the Time War before he bolted.
>> You may or may not choose to count the Pryce incarnation from "The
>> Curse of Fatal Death".
>>
>> Adding in the novels we get:
>> Koschei ("The Dark Path" and "Divided Loyalties", prior to all on
>> screen incarnations)
>> The Rathbone incarnation ("First Frontier" and "Happy Endings",
>> between Ainley and Tipple)
>
> Can we say for certain that the Rathbone (why's he called that?) is
> not the same as Tipple?
In fact, no we can't. Good catch.
He's the Rathbone incarnation because David McIntee said he wrote the
character as if played by Basil Rathbone.
>> The Magistrate ("The Infinity Doctors", anyone's guess)
>>
> What about the Master's appearance in Adventuress of Henrietta Street?
Whoops, forgot that one.
The Man with the Rosette ("Adventuress", presumably after Roberts)
Also forgot this, which contradicts the above.
The "trapped in the Eye of Harmony" incarnation ("Sometime Never...", "The
Gallifrey Chronicle", after Roberts)
(I once wrote a timeline that worked all the post-original series
appearances of the Master into a coherent history, drawing heavily on
McIntee's throwaway idea that some of the contradictory versions were
clones created during "First Frontier". I could dig it out and post it here
if anyone's interested.)
Hand-of-Omega
wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2009, Hand-of-Omega <handofom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What about the Master's appearance in Adventuress of Henrietta Street?
>
> Whoops, forgot that one.
> The Man with the Rosette ("Adventuress", presumably after Roberts)
>
> Also forgot this, which contradicts the above.
> The "trapped in the Eye of Harmony" incarnation ("Sometime Never...", "The
> Gallifrey Chronicle", after Roberts)
>
think I've heard of any of those...
> (I once wrote a timeline that worked all the post-original series
> appearances of the Master into a coherent history, drawing heavily on
> McIntee's throwaway idea that some of the contradictory versions were
> clones created during "First Frontier". I could dig it out and post it here
> if anyone's interested.)
>
I would very much like to see that!
BTW, not to complain about the mods here, but am I the only one who
keeps getting Email messages about how his posts don't have enough
lines or something? This is the only moderated group I'm on
(rec.arts.drwho having sadly dissolved into complete
unintelligibility), so maybe I'm still doing something wrong...Am I
supposed to trim posts I respond to more?
Dex
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Yeah, if a post is more than 70% quoted text, it triggers an automatic e-
mail warning. If you get three of them in a row (ie, without posting any
acceptable messages in between), the posts start being auto-rejected.
See
http://www.robomod.net/rec.arts.drwho.moderated/faq.txt
and
http://www.robomod.net/rec.arts.drwho.moderated/styleguide.txt
Anyway, here's the timeline:
Survival (last episode of classic series) - The Master gets infected with
the Cheetah Virus. He survives the destruction of the Cheetah planet as
described in First Frontier but, despite what he claims in that novel,
regains his TARDIS immediately, and pursues possibilities for a cure
other than the Tzun.
Stop the Pigeon (short story) - The Master takes the identity of Howard
Cithros, a doctor who has devised a radical new age-reduction treatment.
He is actually using his patients' enzymes to stabilise the Cheetah
virus.
Prime Time (novel) - The Master allies with the Fleshsmiths, who have the
technology to transfer his brain into a new body. It transpires they have
their own plans, however, and the transfer proves unsuccessful.
First Frontier (novel) - The Master ends up trapped on 1950s Earth. He
contacts the Tzun, who are able to recreate his Time Lord body, with full
regenerative cycle. In the process they create two clones of the Cheetah-
infected Trakenite. The real Master regenerates (into Basil Rathbone) and
also escapes, having used Tzun technology to create a TARDIS remote
control.
The clones escape, each believing himself to be the real Master, and
somehow acquire TARDISes.
Happy Endings (novel) - The real Master discovers his new regenerative
cycle is unstable. His attempts to stabilise it are interrupted by the
wedding of Bernice Summerfield and Jason Kane. Following this defeat, he
drops out of sight while planning his next move.
Dust Breeding (audio drama) - While trying to steal Edvard Munch's The
Scream, Clone #1 is subjected to the energies of the Warp Core, which
causes him to revert to the form he had in The Deadly Assassin and Keeper
of Traken (Geoffrey Beevers).
The Master (audio drama) - The Doctor, believing Clone #1 to be the real
Master, attempts to provide him with a quiet, happy life as Doctor John
Smith. The Eternal known as Death prevents this.
The Eight Doctors (novel) - Still searching for a cure, Clone #2
transfers his consciousness into a Deathworm. He then arranges to get his
body destroyed by the Daleks.
The TV Movie (TV movie) - The remains of Clone #2 are collected by the
Seventh Doctor (again under the impression this is the real Master),
shortly before his regeneration. The Deathworm/Master-Clone lands the
TARDIS in 1999 and possesses Bruce the Ambulance Driver. He attempts to
take control of the Doctor's future incarnations, and is cast into the
Eye of Harmony at the centre of the Doctor's TARDIS.
The Adventuress of Henrietta Street (novel) - The real Master (sporting a
rosette) visits an amnesiac Eighth Doctor to gloat. (Since he comments on
the balance of the Doctor's beard and his own lack of one, he clearly
isn't the Master from the TVM, when they were both clean-shaven.)
<Doctor Who and the Curse of Fatal Death (Comic Relief special) - In a
"possible present", an alternate Ninth Doctor (Rowan Atkinson) faces an
alternate real Master, in the third incarnation of his new body (Jonathan
Pryce).>
Sometime Never... (novel) - Clone #2 taunts the amnesiac Doctor through a
screen in the TARDIS, creating an image of a bearded face closer to his
earlier selves than Bruce.
<Scream of the Shalka (webcast) - In a "possible present", an alternate
Ninth Doctor (Richard E. Grant) is able to transfer Clone #2's
consciousness into a robot body based on his former appearance (Derek
Jacobi) which is incapable of leaving the TARDIS. Various blocks on the
robot's behaviour prevent it doing anything to threaten the Doctor or
anyone else.>
The Gallifrey Chronicles (novel) - Clone #2 is flushed from the Eye of
Harmony when the Doctor sends the Vore moon after it, and is sent
randomly into the Vortex.
The Glorious Dead (comic strip) - Clone #2's consciousness encounters a
cosmic being called Esterath. He returns to realspace in the guise of a
street preacher, and attempts to take control of the Omniversal Spectrum.
He is stopped by the Eighth Doctor, pre-amnesia, and Kroton the Cyberman,
who becomes the true controller of the Spectrum and banishes the clone to
parts unknown.
<Faction Paradox (book series) - In an alternate future, the real Master
warns the Time Lords of the Enemy, and is appointed War King of
Gallifrey>
Utopia (new series episode) - Prior to or during the Time War (the one
against the Daleks, not the one against the Enemy, which probably never
happened), the real Master regenerates into Derek Jacobi and uses a
Chameleon Arch to turn into a human named Professor Yana, at the end of
the universe.
...and that's where we join him again in the new series.
solar penguin
>
> The TV Movie (TV movie) - The remains of Clone #2 are collected by the
> Seventh Doctor (again under the impression this is the real Master),
I'm not normally a canon purist, but for some reason I don't feel
comfortable with the idea that the Master seen on-screen in an actual
episode of DW was just a clone, while the real one was doing the
novels. Couldn't you swap them over?
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Easily enough. Technically it goes against the only official evidence of
the theory (a line from the TVM quoted in "The Dark Path" and attributed
to "the (ersatz) Master), but it's not that big a deal.
solar penguin
> On 17 Oct 2009, solar penguin <solar....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not normally a canon purist, but for some reason I don't feel
> > comfortable with the idea that the Master seen on-screen in an actual
> > episode of DW was just a clone, while the real one was doing the
> > novels. Couldn't you swap them over?
>
> Easily enough. Technically it goes against the only official evidence of
> the theory (a line from the TVM quoted in "The Dark Path" and attributed
> to "the (ersatz) Master), but it's not that big a deal.
>
Ok. Thanks.
BTW many, many years ago, I once tried to create a Master chronology
that included not only the TV series, but also the novels, the FASA
Monk theory, and the theory that he was also the War Chief, which was
popular in fandom at the time.
I based it on the idea that in his earliest stories, the Master would
be at his most bungling and incompetent, but that he would slowly get
smarter and smarter as he got more experienced.
It went something like this.
1. Koschei from the MA "The Dark Path". (This was supposed to be the
first incarnation.)
2-11. Unknown incarnations. (He probably got through them quickly
because at this stage he's so hopeless.)
12. The Meddling Monk, as per FASA.
13. The first incarnation to call himself the Master. This can be
Pryce in CoFD -- if you want to include that. (He's an especially
incompetent Master, unable to operate his own scanner properly, so it
belongs here in his early career.)
13a. (Gordon Tipple either does a Hurndall, playing the same
incarnation as Pryce, or plays his own "first incarnation to call
himself the Master", depending on whether you incluide CoFD as canon.
Daleks exterminate the Master/Monk for betraying them in Masterplan
and/or CoFD.)
13b. The snake thing.
14. Bruce in TVM
15. The Eye of harmony dumps him back on Tersurus, where he becomes
the corpse in Deadly Assassin and Keeper of Traken.
16. Ainley. (The Master can still be a bit incompetent at times, but
is steadily getting better. After all, he manages to survive for a
long time in this body.)
16a. (The post-TV Ainley Master in novels)
17. The NAs. (The Master gets a new cycle of regenerations in one of
the novels. The first new incarnation looks like Basil Rathbone.)
18-??. Unknown incarnations. (But with all this experience the Master
is finally getting successful. Or just less useless.)
??. Delgado. (At long last we have a Master who's gained enough skills
and knowledge to actually be a serious threat to the Doctor.
YAAYYY!!!! This way the Master can go out on a high, instead of as an
eternal loser.) (OTOH he's not that great because he still manages to
end this incarnation being killed by Tara King, despite having the
Rani around to help him! **grin**)
??+1. The War Chief might work as a post-Delgado Master, since he was
more organised than any earlier incarnation.
???? Jacobi.
????+1 Simm. (He actually manages to conquer Earth for a whole year.
That's something no previous Master had ever managed.)
?????? Salyavin/Chronotis. (He was supposedly the only Time Lord to
escape from Shada and had an allegedly unique telepathic/hypnotic
power. But the Master escaped at the start of "Terror of the Autons"
and had a similar but less developed hypnotic power. Clearly,they have
to be the same person, and by now, the Master has realised that he
will never conquer the Universe, and has decided to retire instead.)
In its own weird little way, that makes sense. But I'm not suggesting
that it's really the case. For a start, all the royalty backpayments
the writers would owe each other for all the various characters in
each others' stories would be a nightmare. It'd tie up all the DW
accountants forever to sort it out!
Hand-of-Omega
wrote:
> On 14 Oct 2009, Hand-of-Omega <handofom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 9:08 am, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Yeah, if a post is more than 70% quoted text, it triggers an automatic e-
> mail warning. If you get three of them in a row (ie, without posting any
> acceptable messages in between), the posts start being auto-rejected.
>
way to do things...
Sometimes, responses don't need to be more than the post one is
responding to...
>
> Stop the Pigeon (short story) -
This could actually tie into the Lazarus experiments he later
funded...
> Happy Endings (novel) - Following this defeat, he
> drops out of sight while planning his next move.
>
I thought President Romana captured him at the end of that novel...
> The Glorious Dead (comic strip) -
>
While reading this list, I just KNEW that you weren't gonna know about
this one! But you proved me wrong...Kudos!
There's at least one other appearance I recall...Did you read the
comic strip where the Master is on trial by all the great villains of
pulp fiction? Prof. Moriarty is judge, the Phantom of the Opera (with
his thrown noose) is the executioner, and the jury are all mad
scientists and criminals from various stories...I forget how it ended,
except that the Master actually regretted having to destroy such an
admirable group...
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
wrote:
> BTW many, many years ago, I once tried to create a Master chronology
> that included not only the TV series, but also the novels, the FASA
> Monk theory, and the theory that he was also the War Chief, which was
> popular in fandom at the time.
>
Interesting take on the Master! The main problem I have with it is
that the Doctor and Master generally seem to be on a "relative time
track", that is, the same amount of time passes for each, which is why
we don't see the Third Doctor running into the Simm Master, or the
Fifth Doctor running into Delgado's Master. Of course, this is also a
fan theory which fits the facts we have available to us...I suppose
it's entirely possible to do such "non-linear" encounters in a novel,
when you don't have to worry about securing the actual actors!
Dex
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> On Oct 15, 9:44 am, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> Stop the Pigeon (short story) -
>
> This could actually tie into the Lazarus experiments he later
> funded...
>
>> Happy Endings (novel) - Following this defeat, he
>> drops out of sight while planning his next move.
>>
> I thought President Romana captured him at the end of that novel...
So did she, but it turned out to be a hypnotised Pakhar with an adjusted
holo-emitter. (Really.)
> There's at least one other appearance I recall...Did you read the
> comic strip where the Master is on trial by all the great villains of
> pulp fiction? Prof. Moriarty is judge, the Phantom of the Opera (with
> his thrown noose) is the executioner, and the jury are all mad
> scientists and criminals from various stories...I forget how it ended,
> except that the Master actually regretted having to destroy such an
> admirable group...
I do recall that. I *think* it was the Delgado Master, so before my
timeline, but I'd have to dig it out to be sure.