Monorails collide at Disney World!!!
Mikchiaheads
two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
ending to the July 4th celebration.
BigBob
http://www.wesh.com/news/19955188/detail.html
There's a pic on the following CNN page:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/05/u.s.disney.monorail/
(CNN) -- A monorail train at Walt Disney World crashed into the back
of another train early Sunday, killing one driver, according to an
amusement park spokesman and a witness interviewed by CNN.
A 2 a.m. ET monorail crash at Disney World killed one person, a park
spokesperson said.
The crash occurred about 2 a.m. at one of the monorail stops at Disney
World in Florida, said the witness, who requested anonymity.
"Today we mourn the loss of our fellow cast member," said a statement
by Mike Griffin, Disney's vice president for public affairs. "Our
hearts go out to his family and to those who have lost a friend and co-
worker."
The statement said the monorail was shut down, "and we will continue
to work closely will law enforcement to determine what happened and
the appropriate next steps."
The witness said one monorail train rammed into the back of a
stationary train. A photo of the crash provided by the witness showed
the front car of a train badly damaged where it hit another train at a
station.
According to the witness, a family of six in one train was freed from
a damaged car. The witness said the family was shaken but uninjured.
alex
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19954891/detail.html
I'm surprised Disney doesn't incorporate an automatic collision
avoidance in their monorails.
Alex
jt august
<dbc5f4ab-a9b5-4369...@g31g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Mikchiaheads <mikchi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
At first I thought this was a troll (we've seen this sort of thing in
the past), but sadly, this is true. Which brings to mind the question,
how could this have happened? I thought the rails had a computer system
that could shut down trains that got too close. I do remember reading
in this newsgroup from someone who works there that they updated the
control system to one based on an older revision of MS Windows. I have
to wonder if the OS experienced a "fatal" error (also known as the "blue
screen of death," both of which are terms that could be used as a sick
joke in this instance), and it left the train stuck in a motor on state.
The only other possibility is that the operator manually overrode the
safety system, and I can't - for the life of me - imagine any operator
doing anything like that without an incredibly good reason.
jt
BigBob
It appears that the accident happened at the Epcot monorail station.
The pic on the CNN site (linked to in post 2 of this thread) backs-up
the location as Epcot.
It would almost be worth a trip to WDW today to see the wreckage.
I wouldn't think that Disney will close Epcot just to keep people from
seeing it?
They can't clear it before the investigation is done.
And, they sure can't build a construction wall around it.
Bob Me.
news:bn14m.174314$DP1.155874@attbi_s22...
Yeah I thought that there was a block control systen that prevented 2 trains from
being in the same space, and even if one train over shot the block, it would be put
into an emergency stop. Although as we saw in DC a couple of weeks ago with the
Metro, they do fail.
The good news, if there is any, is that it was at 2am and the monorails weren't full
of guests, and there was no one else, like guests, sitting in the front.
I wonder though if the CM was incapacited. Having sat in the front of the TTC to
Epcot run, its not like that the station just sneeks up on you, you've got
visibility as you head into the station. In fact you pass the station on the loop
around Future World so you'd at least know that there was another train sitting
there. Plus each monorail has flashing beacons on each end. So if the block system
failed, I wonder if any attempt was made at an emergency stop by the CM.
It'll be interesting to see what the cause of this was.
--
Bob Me.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
To reply to me via email, remove the "spam_and_eggs." from my email address.
jt august
http://www.wftv.com/news/19955324/detail.html
From this video news article, a guest reported via twitter that around
9:30 pm the same evening/overnight, the operator announced that the
monorail was "experiencing a technical temper-tantrum." Again, to me,
this points concerns to the computer control system, but it is not known
if this was the same train that was later involved in the crash.
jt
Gary Edstrom
Gary Edstrom
Was this after park closing?
Gary
BigBob
The Magic Kingdom was open until 1 AM last night.
MK guests, who had parked their cars at Epcot, would still have been
traveling the Epcot loop to return to Epcot for their cars at that
hour.
The Epcot loop will typically run for 1 to 1-1/2 hours after the MK
closes.
alex
out, heart attack). It isn't like the monorails can swerve out of
control into an oncoming train.
jt august
<719e5a69-c9eb-4739...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
BigBob <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> It would almost be worth a trip to WDW today to see the wreckage.
> I wouldn't think that Disney will close Epcot just to keep people from
> seeing it?
> They can't clear it before the investigation is done.
Very true.
> And, they sure can't build a construction wall around it.
Bring in some cranes or cherry pickers, and sew together some big tarps,
paint Mickey on it and drape it for as long as they need.
May have Mickey have a sympathetic look in respect to the fallen cast
member.
jt
Jeffrey Gordon
jt august <star...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
For clarification, the comments on that article show that the twitter
post was regarding the Disneyland monorail, not WDW.
~Jeff
TDC Experiment 626 and Guardian of Stitch Kingdom
jt august
Jeffrey Gordon <je...@jeffreygordon.net> wrote:
I got the quote from the video article referred to in the above URL. I
will also say that there are many people (not RADPers) who interchane
Disneyland and Disney World casually.
jt
--Fizzie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here's hoping there was no text messaging going on. I hope this
doesn't cause TPTB to enforce a knee jerk reactionary ban on all
upfront civilian passengers. Riding with the driver has been the
highlight of many a young (and not so young) guest's trip!
-Fizzie
ccsuwxman
From the photo posted on the CNN website, it appears the accident
occurred at or near the TTC. That's bad news, as it means the entire
monorail system has to be shut down. If it had happened at the Epcot
station, they would have shut the Epcot loop down, but continued to
operate the MK/Resort loops. As it is, they have shut down the entire
system during peak Summer season. So it's boats or busses to get from
the TTC to MK or the resorts.
The CNN article also said that the system has an automatic system that
prevents trains from being in the same block, but the operator can
manually override that system. It will be interesting to see how this
plays out. Lucky there were so few people on the train at that hour,
and no one but the operator in the front seats.
BigBob
Claims the TTC is the location of the accident after all.
http://www.dgshi.cn/content/200907/05694.html
Walt Disney World monorail crash kills driver
Pubdate:2009-07-05 22:57 Beijing ChinaSource:rt Author:rt Hits:108
Two Walt Disney World monorails crashed into each other at about 2
a.m. Sunday, July 5th, at the end of Disney's popular 4th of July
celebration. Monorail pink and monorail purple crashed near the Magic
Kingdom's Transportation and Ticket Center, where guests board the
monorail to the Magic Kingdom, its resort hotels, or Epcot. One driver
was killed, according to the Orlando Sentinel, and six guests were on
board but were not seriously injured. The two monorail trains were
transporting guests to and from the Epcot theme park. News media are
currently offering conflicting reports of where the crash took place,
with many news outlets reporting that the collision took place at the
Epcot monorail station, while others report that the crash occurred at
the Magic Kingdom's Transportation and Ticket Center. Central Florida
News 13's photos show the two monorail trains locked together at the
Magic Kingdom's Transportation and Ticket Center.
This tragic accident was entirely preventable. Disney's monorails
operate on two separate tracks on two loop systems. One loop travels
past the Magic Kingdom and the Magic Kingdom resorts. The express
monorail track takes guests to the Transportation and Ticket Center
and the Magic Kingdom, and the resort monorail track makes these stops
and additional stops at Disney's Contemporary Resort, the Grand
Floridian Resort, and the Polynesian Resort. At the Transportation and
Ticket Center, guests can also board a separate monorail that travels
along a different loop track to Epcot and back.
Monorail trains normally travel along their respective tracks, with
each monorail traveling in the same direction on the track. This way,
it is impossible for monorails to crash into each other head-on.
Disney uses a sophisticated safety system designed to prevent
monorails from crashing into the rear of another monorail train.
Monorails test this system regularly while carrying passengers, who
are advised that the monorail's computer system automatically shuts
down once the monorail comes within a certain distance of another
monorail train. It is not clear how this system failed early Sunday
morning, resulting in the death of the driver who crashed into the
rear of another monorail train.
Sunday's monorail crash raises several questions:
Why didn't the monorail's fail-safe computer system kick in, shutting
down the monorails' computerized operating systems when they came too
close to each other?
Since Disney's monorail system has a communications and navigation
system similar to an air traffic control tower, how did this tragic
accident occcur?
Each monorail train is equipped with front and rear headlights and a
horn, in addition to a communications system. Why didn't the driver
stop when he or she saw the other monorail train ahead?
Did the driver suffer from exhuastion, a heart attack, or some other
health condition at the time of the crash?
What steps will Disney take to make the monorail system safer for
drivers and guests?
CNN began reporting the monorail crash early this morning,
broadcasting horrifying images of monorails pink and purple locked in
a fatal embrace. Monorail drivers are often retirees who enjoy working
at Disney for the employee benefits and the atmosphere. The monorail
is rather simple to control: push the lever forward to control
direction and speed; backward to reverse. There is no steering wheel.
Disney allows up to four guests to ride inside the driver's cab while
it is in motion.
The Orange County Sheriff's Office is investigating the crash.
Meanwhile Disney World copes with a shocking accident, the death of a
cast member, adverse publicity, and its own search into the causes of
this gruesome accident, which should have been averted.
Walt Disney World has issued the following statement:
"Today, we mourn the loss of our fellow cast member. Our hearts go out
to his family and to those who have lost a friend and co-worker. The
safety of our guests and cast members is always our top priority. The
monorail is out of service and we will continue to work closely with
law enforcement to determine what happened and the approximate next
steps." -- Mike Griffin, Walt Disney World Vice President of Public
Affairs
rincewind
We don't know that they didn't. It's doubtful they'd go for 30+ years
without a major accident on blind luck. It's possible that whatever
system they have just malfunctioned with tragic results.
Michael
It's tested daily, when an engineer deliberately tries to violate the
protection zone (1200') causing the auto-stop to engage. Apparently it
failed, resulting in this tragic loss.
BigBob
There are five pictures available to see.
I've been seeing pictures of BOTH the TTC and the Epcot monorail
station, I don't know why this is so confusing?
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/7/5/monorail_crash_at_epcot_kills_driver.html
Disney Monorail Crash Kills Driver
Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:15:48 AM
Deadly Monorail Crash At Disney
LAKE BUENA VISTA -- News 13 has learned a driver of the Walt Disney
World Monorail System was killed when two monorail trains collided
early Sunday.
Witnesses who called the News 13 newsroom said the trains collided
around 2 a.m. Sunday on the Epcot track of the Transportation and
Ticket Center, located at the parking lot of the Magic Kingdom, as
guests were leaving the park following a Fourth of July fireworks
show.
The Orange County Sheriff’s Office told News 13 the driver, identified
as Austin Wenneberg, 21, was pronounced dead on the the scene, and
another cast member onboard was taken to Florida Hospital Celebration.
Six guests onboard were evaluated by paramedics and released. No other
injuries were reported.
There was no immediate word on what caused the wreck.
According to witnesses, one monorail train slammed into the back of
the other.
Crews had to cut the driver who died out of the train.
Sunday’s wreck marks the first fatal accident in the Walt Disney World
Monorail System’s nearly 38 years of operation.
Statement from Disney
Mike Griffin, vice president of public affairs at Walt Disney World,
issued the following statement Sunday following the wreck:
“Today, we mourn the loss of our fellow cast member. Our hearts go out
to his family and those who have lost a friend and coworker. The
safety of our guests and cast members is always our top priority. The
monorail is out of service and we will continue to work closely with
law enforcement to determine what happened and the appropriate next
steps.”
Disney’s theme parked reopened as scheduled at 9 a.m. Sunday, but park
officials told News 13 the entire monorail system will remain out of
service until further notice as investigation and cleanup continues.
Officials with the Orange County Sheriff’s Office told News 13 they
are assisting in the crash investigation.
Monorail System Facts
The Walt Disney World Monorail system debuted when the resort first
opened in 1971 with two routes.
In 1982, the system expanded to three lines as Epcot first opened.
The entire monorail system currently comprises 14.7 miles of track,
transporting about 50 million guests every year between the Magic
Kingdom, Epcot and various Disney resorts.
The current trains have been in use since 1989. Each train is just
over 203 feet long, consisting of six cars that can carry up to a
total of 364 passengers.
Each train is driven by eight, 113-horsepower motors.
The maximum speed during normal operations is 40 mph.
Disney officials said at any given time, there must be at least two
holdpoints between a given train and the train ahead of it.
When the train detects there are fewer than two holdpoints between
itself and the preceding train, the emergency brakes are immediately
applied and cannot be released until sufficient spacing becomes
available, or the operator explicitly overrides the system.
There was no immediate word on how Sunday morning’s wreck happened.
Previous Monorail Accidents
1974
A monorail train crashed into the train ahead of it, injuring a driver
and two guests.
June 26, 1985
A fire engulfed the rear car of a monorail train in transit from Epcot
to the Transportation and Ticket Center. The train was carrying 240
passengers, 40 of whom were in the burning car.
Passengers in the car kicked out side windows and climbed around the
side of the train to reach the roof, where they were subsequently
rescued by the Reedy Creek Fire Department.
Seven passengers were hospitalized for smoke inhalation or other minor
injuries.
Aug. 30, 1991
A monorail train collided with a diesel maintenance work tractor near
Disney’s Contemporary Resort as the tractor drove closely in front of
the train to film it for a commercial. Two cast members were treated
at a hospital for injuries.
Aug. 12, 1996
An electrical fire broke out on a train pulling into the Magic Kingdom
station. The driver and the five passengers onboard exited safely.
jt august
<42666f57-2f77-4f99...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
BigBob <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Claims the TTC is the location of the accident after all.
>
> http://www.dgshi.cn/content/200907/05694.html
Siting a news service based in China is not the most reliable source.
It also explains how the article can proclaim the accident is entirely
avoidable.
But a little more refined research indicates that yes, the accident
appears to be on the Epcot beam at the TTC. But it does nothing to
explain what actually happened, which even the cast as Disney wants to
know.
With the entire monorail system shut down indefinitely (guests at
monorail served resorts can walk to the parks or take busses), I have to
wonder if DL will also suspend monorail operations pending Florida
results? Does DL use the same safety control systems used in Florida?
jt
Gary Edstrom
<mikchi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I notice that several YouTube videos have been posted and then removed.
Gary
Lorli
"Mikchiaheads" <mikchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbc5f4ab-a9b5-4369...@g31g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> One cast member reportedly dies as a result of the collision between
> two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
> ending to the July 4th celebration.
May those involved in the scene in anyway find peace today after witnessing
the tragic event last night. Mya the family and friends of the cast member
know that many have them in their thoughts and prayers. Finally many thanks
to the kindness of the men trying to assist at the scene. Bless you all.
Lisa Cubbon
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-disney-world-monorail-crash-070509,0,2802055.story
Looks like some paramedics got there very very fast. Just
awful. Lisa
alien
"Gary Edstrom" <GEds...@PacBell.Net> wrote in message
news:vik155tuashnolaf2...@4ax.com...
One of the posts before this thread started had the following ......
"Leaving, the express monorail broke down (12:45) and the CMs were putting
the guests through the express train and walking over to the resort train.
At least they did help the express people by opening the doors for the
express people first most of the time."
This was from a thread posted at 1:46am according to my newsreader.
I wonder if the "powered down" express train (assuming they would have to
power down to make sure it didn't accidently move while anyone was walking
through it) had anything to do with not being "seen" on the system?
My condolences to family and friends of the CM.
alien
BigBob
has me curious is, *why* the impact scene is clearly being shown in
two different locations.
The original still, as has been on the CNN website, shows the impact
damage with the collision clearly outdoors.
The one video I've seen, on the other hand, clearly shows the impact
damage with the monorails now inside the TTC monorail loading
platform.
Were the trains moved after impact (possibly to evacuate guests)?
It would seem that they were.
BTW, it would appear that it was the dark-stripped monorail (purple?)
that hit the light-stripped monorail (pink?), as, in the video, you
can clearly see that those present are trying to get to the pilot of
the dark-stripped monorail (purple?).
The 7/5/09 accident has already been added to the Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_World_Monorail_System
Pete...@aol.com
<nothing on this planet works perfectly all of the
time. >
The Red Line Metrolink in D.C. and the monorail system at WDW date
from around the same time............30 years plus.
I hope this is not the first symptom of a broader infrastructure
failure at the park.
Paragon
"BigBob" <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:719e5a69-c9eb-4739...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> Varying accounts can be confusing right now.
> It appears that the accident happened at the Epcot monorail station.
> The pic on the CNN site (linked to in post 2 of this thread) backs-up
> the location as Epcot.
>
> It would almost be worth a trip to WDW today to see the wreckage.
> I wouldn't think that Disney will close Epcot just to keep people from
> seeing it?
> They can't clear it before the investigation is done.
True.
> And, they sure can't build a construction wall around it.
That's exactly what they have done.
Patty Winter
In article <CeSdnUEHULWDn8zX...@earthlink.com>,
Paragon <cyb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"BigBob" <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:719e5a69-c9eb-4739...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>That's exactly what they have done.
?? The aerial footage I just saw on WESH's website shows the
two trains sticking out of opposite ends of one of the covered
TTC monorail platforms. No need to build any walls to hide the
part where the two trains are smashed together. Or are you saying
that they've put up some sort of material to prevent side views
of the platforms? I don't recall how much of the platforms is even
visible from ground level.
Patty
BigBob
monorail pink that backed into monorail purple.
"The short, short version is that Monorail Central cleared Monorail
Pink in reverse into the Concourse (the Epcot side of the TTC) station
without being aware that Monorail Purple was still in the station.
Pink was cleared with MAPO override, meaning that the driver would
have disabled the anti-collision system (there are a variety of
legitimate reasons for doing this), and would have been acting on
faith that Central wouldn't have cleared him into a dangerous
situation because it sometimes is difficult to see everything you'd
want to in the cab mirrors, particularly at night on a curve such as
the one he was backing along."
There is a whole lot more to this comment, and some back-and-forth, in
the MiceChat thread.
Paragon
"Patty Winter" <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote in message
news:4a5104a5$0$1653$742e...@news.sonic.net...
I'm saying that on one of the local news reports this PM, it showed walls up
around the actual crash area inside the station. Big gray construction
walls.
jt august
<eb6ac3c3-072c-4d69...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
BigBob <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
I'm surprised there isn't a rear view video system armed with lower end
night vision technology. The cheapest of night view video cams would
have been ample for their purposes. I also thought that if there was to
be any reverse direction motion of any significant distance, that it was
to be executed by an alternate operator/supervisor. Back in '91, when I
was watching a beam transfer, a supervisor took the reverse direction
cab, operated the train to the outside loop, and then the operator took
it into the station. the operator then walked the platform to the new
traffic direction and they loaded the train. As much as Disney does put
on their safety practices, I can't see them changing this practice.
jt
BigBob
http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/07/05/one-cast-member-dead-in-disney-monorail-crash
lenniemc
of this young man. What a sad, sad tragedy. May God Bless...
BigBob
crash...
From various sources, it would appear that:
(1) The crash occurred in the station
(2) The trains were backed out to allow the monorail pink pilot to
exit his train onto the TTC platform
(3) The trains were then moved back into the station to conceal the
damage from the public and media
What I can't understand is, why would anyone move the trains from
their original resting places prior to the accident investigation?
I'm actually surprised they were even able to move the trains.
Also, while not "easy," I'm sure the monorail pink pilot could have
been evacuated without moving the trains (even without a parallel
track next to the front of monorail pink where it was positioned).
Perhaps, the monorail pink pilot sustained some injuries or pain that
made his evacuation impossible without removing him directly onto the
platform?
BTW, I would think that the monorail station would have security
cameras monitoring (even recording?) the platform on a constant basis?
Is this the case?
And, if so, absent a court order, do you think Disney will ever permit
the public to see what actually happened from any existing security
footage?
alex
CMs should have the ability to execute an E-stop in the event of a
problem, like a passenger on the rail or in a case like today.
Alex
Patty Winter
In article <JoGdnWSXsaZcuszX...@earthlink.com>,
Paragon <cyb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Patty Winter" <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote in message
>news:4a5104a5$0$1653$742e...@news.sonic.net...
[extraneous text deleted]
>> Or are you saying
>> that they've put up some sort of material to prevent side views
>> of the platforms? I don't recall how much of the platforms is even
>> visible from ground level.
>
>I'm saying that on one of the local news reports this PM, it showed walls up
>around the actual crash area inside the station. Big gray construction
>walls.
Okay, I just saw some video that showed they put those up to prevent
side views of the platform, as I suspected.
Patty
Rob Steere
news:h2q96f$i8n$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Yeah I thought that there was a block control systen that prevented 2
> trains from being in the same space, and even if one train over shot the
> block, it would be put into an emergency stop. Although as we saw in DC a
> couple of weeks ago with the Metro, they do fail.
>
> The good news, if there is any, is that it was at 2am and the monorails
> weren't full of guests, and there was no one else, like guests, sitting in
> the front.
>
> I wonder though if the CM was incapacited. Having sat in the front of the
> TTC to Epcot run, its not like that the station just sneeks up on you,
> you've got visibility as you head into the station. In fact you pass the
> station on the loop around Future World so you'd at least know that there
> was another train sitting there. Plus each monorail has flashing beacons
> on each end. So if the block system failed, I wonder if any attempt was
> made at an emergency stop by the CM.
>
> It'll be interesting to see what the cause of this was.
>
From the discussions on WDWMagic, here's what we've been able to piece
together as the most-likely (but nothing officially confirmed) scenario,
based on the end-of-night procedures and radio chatter leading up to the
accident.
Monorail Pink was in the process of being taken offline for the night. It
had been on the Epcot beam. It pulled out of the station, around the curve,
past the switch to the Epcot-to-Express spurline, and stopped to wait for
the switch track to be moved. Under normal procedure, once the switch is
moved, they drive backwards onto the spur, and around to the Express beam
and into the TTC Express beam station.
The override button is required to be held down when driving a train along
either of the spur tracks (the Epcot-to-Express spur at the TTC, or the
spurline to the shops by MK). While in override, the trains are limited to
15MPH.
Their instructions were that once they were clear of the spur, they were to
continue driving in reverse on the Express beam until they reached the MK
station. At that time of night, all Express trains had already been parked,
so they had a clear ride. (And even if there were trains, once they were
onto the Express beam, the red/yellow/green blocklight system would have
operated normally) These instructions came from Monorail Central, which
drivers presume are correct, and that all is clear for them to proceed as
instructed.
Apparently, that switch to the spur track was never moved (for reasons that
will most likely come out in the investigation), and Monorail Central
cleared Pink to operate in reverse using the override button (which was
required to drive on the spur track). But instead of driving along the spur
track, they were driving backwards along the Epcot beam. And rather than the
override button clearing the red-light error of it being the spur track, it
was overriding the red-light indicating presence of a train behind them.
Had it been daytime, the driver in Pink most likely would have realized that
they weren't on the correct beam. But with it being 2AM, in the darkness
they must not have noticed that rather than the Epcot beam appearing off to
their right, the spur track was off to their left.
Unfortunately, Purple was approaching the station as normal. He probably got
a red light from the approaching Pink and stopped on the beam. Pink came
through the station, and collided with Purple in the area between the ticket
booths and the station.
The driver in Pink probably realized he was driving through the wrong
station when he got there, but at that point it was too late. By the time
the driver enters the station going backwards, there was only a couple car
lengths between the rear end of Pink and the front of Purple.
The most likely reason (that I can come up with) as to why the collided
trains pulled into the station is that the driver of Pink, upon feeling and
hearing the crash, they were momentarily stunned, and then drove forward,
away from whatever they hit (remembering that for all they knew, it was a
totally empty track behind them). But as the trains were meshed together,
they dragged Purple along with it. This would jive with a reported witness
statement that there was a 10-15 second pause, and then the train drove in
the other direction.
You can check out the discussion over on WDWMagic. I also posted a
rudimentary diagram there of the area and how the monorail *should* have
moved under normal procedures.
-Rob
www.bigbrian-nc.com
--
Brian Martsolf mart...@mindspring.com
Big Brian's Disney page www.bigbrian-nc.com
Postcards, Podcasts, and Trip Reports... Mousin' It Up! since 1997
BigBob
Rob,
From everything I read into late last night, I think your summary is
excellent and spot on.
I believe your summary to accurately describe our best understanding
of what happened, now that the communities have been able to sift
through and separate the facts from the errors, conflicting reports
and speculation that fueled the early hours of the story.
Patty Winter
In article <ndh4m.5517$dd4....@newsfe10.iad>,
Rob Steere <ste...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>From the discussions on WDWMagic, here's what we've been able to piece
>together as the most-likely (but nothing officially confirmed) scenario,
>You can check out the discussion over on WDWMagic. I also posted a
>rudimentary diagram there of the area and how the monorail *should* have
>moved under normal procedures.
Rob, I found the WDW Magic site, and a 61-page discussion of the
accident, but I don't see a way to search by user name to find your
posting with the diagram. Could you please post a link to that exact
message?
Patty
Someone
"Mikchiaheads" <mikchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbc5f4ab-a9b5-4369...@g31g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
> ending to the July 4th celebration.
Disney World Monorail Crash Explained by Pilot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBZ_S7iAHU
Caren
> One cast member reportedly dies as a result of the collision between
> two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
> ending to the July 4th celebration.
I was pretty out of touch this weekend, so I'm coming into this
discussion a bit late. I suspect the accident will turn out to be one
of those things where just the right combination of things go wrong to
cause a disaster.
According to Deb Wills site, the monorail has been inspected and is up
and running again.
--
Caren
TDC Queen of Adventureland
mike
purple wasn't sleeping, texting, or distracted by speaking on a cell
phone? How much advance notice would the pilot in monorail purple have
had if he was looking ahead and was monitoring his surroundings. Would
it have been a few seconds? Too late to hit the kill switch?
Also, how common is it for College Program participants to pilot
monorails, alone, at 2am? I thought most CPs worked in retail shops,
food service, or were ride stewards.
Very, very sad in any case.
Paragon
"mike" <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba2cdb4a-e65d-4fe3...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
The paper says he had been with Disney for three years. Can't be a CP,
then. He got into Monorails in October.
jctw...@aol.com
this accident. It will take
a while, but eventually we'll know whose human error, or errors, were
responsbile. All the
other speculation is just the usual mindless babbling normally seen
here...JMHO
mike
Yes, we'll have to wait and see about the exact details. Let's hope an
accident like that one never happens again--that's what's important.
The safety of all.
Tina C.
must the poor pilot of the Pink Monorail be feeling right now! I wonder if
he will ever get into a monorail again. Hope he has lots of friends and
family to be there with/for him!
Even though it seems like it was not, at all, his fault...
--
--
Tina C.
"TDC Diva of the Disney Realm, Lover of Trees, Nature and all cute critters"
Tina...@mchsi.com
ti...@themagicforless.com
Charlie Foxtrot
wrote:
>With all due respect, has it been ruled out that the CM in monorail
>purple wasn't sleeping, texting, or distracted by speaking on a cell
>phone? How much advance notice would the pilot in monorail purple have
>had if he was looking ahead and was monitoring his surroundings. Would
>it have been a few seconds? Too late to hit the kill switch?
>
From what is being pieced together, so far, it seems that the driver
of pink was moving the train backward - believing he was on another
beam, since he was supposed to have been transfered and all was
cleared by the tower.
So pink backed up and the rear car nose road up and into the cab of
the stationary purple train, killing the driver of the purple train.
In other words, so far it looks like the driver who died was NOT the
driver at fault in this incident.
Can't really blame the driver of pink, either. He was backing up, on
a curve and believed, by what he was told, that he had been
transferred to the adjacent beam.
Foxtrot
If you think you hate me from what I write here, check out my blog on my MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/bennettron
If you actually think I'm an okay guy, go ahead and add me as your friend if you are active at MySpace.
Rob Steere
>
> Rob, I found the WDW Magic site, and a 61-page discussion of the
> accident, but I don't see a way to search by user name to find your
> posting with the diagram. Could you please post a link to that exact
> message?
>
Patty,
The real, credible info posted by a CM with monorail experience starts on
Page 52 of that thread. Before that is mostly a lot of outpouring for the
family of the CM that was killed, as well as some baseless accusations,
ageist remarks, and a bit of bickering about whether or not the moderators
should allow the posting of links to the semi-graphic video footage from the
crash scene (how graphic, I don't know, as I haven't watched it)
Here are a few key posts:
A CM with monorail experience explaining in-depth the procedure that
Monorail Pink *should* have been executing:
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615698&postcount=766
And my post the includes the diagram:
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615832&postcount=826
In the pages in-between those two, there are a few very informational posts
by the monorail CM who made Post# 766.
-Rob
Rob Steere
news:GMv4m.773318$yE1.590273@attbi_s21...
>I not only feel so sorry for the deceased CM's friends and family, but what
>must the poor pilot of the Pink Monorail be feeling right now! I wonder if
>he will ever get into a monorail again. Hope he has lots of friends and
>family to be there with/for him!
>
> Even though it seems like it was not, at all, his fault...
> --
While not making judgment on whether or not the driver of Pink shares in the
blame of this accident, there *are* multiple landmarks that he/she missed
while driving backwards. Had any of them registered in a "does not compute"
sort of way in their mind, they most likely would have stopped their train
in time.
Among them are:
-The switch itself, which is lit at night so that you can see which way it
is pointing.
-Monorail pilots describe a "noticeable nudge to the left" as the train
backs over that switch. No nudge means you didn't get switched.
-They were driving on two fairly parallel beams around the curve. Had they
correctly been on the spur track, the empty beam would have been to their
right. But in this case the empty beam was to their left.
-A less-easily-noticed point, according to people in the know about monorail
operations, (and I hope I'm saying this correctly) is that the beam would
have momentarily lost power when the track switch was being moved. If the
power didn't cut out for that moment and it always does, it might have
registered.
Of course, regardless of where blame might lie, my heart goes out to the CMs
and families of all involved.
-Rob
Patty Winter
In article <bgx4m.29995$ml7....@newsfe18.iad>,
Rob Steere <ste...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>Here are a few key posts:
>A CM with monorail experience explaining in-depth the procedure that
>Monorail Pink *should* have been executing:
>http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615698&postcount=766
>
>And my post the includes the diagram:
>http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615832&postcount=826
Thank you, Rob, the diagram and your description of the usual
and probable procedures help to clarify things a lot.
Patty
Chris Marino
little foggy on this, but I believe the driver can in fact see the
tail end of the train turn onto the epcot spur line when backing onto
it. Also, an attendant at the station should have had a remote for
killing the power. Also, I was very surprised that the driver didn't
escape the cab. It's pretty easy to pop the door and jump out.
Everyone involved could have been paying more attention.
The MAPO (anti-collision system) override is used whenever you have to
travel on a spur line. This override can just as easily be used to
get closer to another train than you should.
The biggest thing I'm thinking about all this is that there should be
a distinction between the "MAPO Red" that you see when you're too
close to a train and the "MAPO Red" that you see when you are close to
the spur line. I believe that this would have been enough to prevent
the accident.
rincewind
> "Tina C." <tina.carl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
2 a.m. and you trust the powers that be that they sent you to the
right spur.
Chris Marino
Its hard to say that the "powers that be" are the ones that screwed up
the worst here. It could have been monorail shop that didn't set the
switch. But there are at least 4 different people involved here that
could have prevented this, had they been paying better attention.
Bob Me.
news:bgx4m.29995$ml7....@newsfe18.iad...
Rob, looks like the Orlando Sentinel "improved" your drawing!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-bk-disney-monorail-cause-070709,0,7376996.story
And thanks for the detailed explanation.
Also interesting that the NTSB is now involved.
--
Bob Me.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
To reply to me via email, remove the "spam_and_eggs." from my email address.
Someone
"Someone" <som...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:h2t9co$vh5$1...@aioe.org...
Cars are strong enough to withstand a crash. Why isn't the futuristic
monorail strong enough to withstand a crash?
Chris Marino
> "Someone" <some...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:h2t9co$vh5$1...@aioe.org...
>
>
>
> > "Mikchiaheads" <mikchiahe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:dbc5f4ab-a9b5-4369...@g31g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> >> One cast member reportedly dies as a result of the collision between
> >> two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
> >> ending to the July 4th celebration.
>
> > Disney World Monorail Crash Explained by Pilot
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBZ_S7iAHU
>
> Cars are strong enough to withstand a crash. Why isn't the futuristic
> monorail strong enough to withstand a crash?
I'm no expert on trains, but I don't think any train can be built to
withstand a collision with another train. If the front didn't
crumple, certainly it would have been forced off the beam. Probably
best to build a system where crashes don't happen. This one has
worked quite well for a long time
Darrell Jefress
news:887555t91r3b2jmbq...@4ax.com...
> From what is being pieced together, so far, it seems that the driver
> of pink was moving the train backward - believing he was on another
> beam, since he was supposed to have been transfered and all was
> cleared by the tower.
It has been mentioned in numerous places what a good thing it was that there
were not more guests on the train that could have been seriously injured.
But one thing that struck me after a couple days was why there were *any*
guests on monorail purple - the train was returning from Epcot, which had
been closed for several hours. The train was still running at that point to
allow guests to return from MK *to* the Epcot parking lot. (Best
explanation I can think of - they had come from MK, and realized en route
that they had left something behind and were hoping lost and found was
avaialble.)
This has little to do with the tragedy of Sunday morning - merely a
curiosity, not anything that needs to be examined.
N via D
jt august
"www.bigbrian-nc.com" <mart...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Gary Edstrom wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 04:31:22 -0700 (PDT), Mikchiaheads
> > <mikchi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One cast member reportedly dies as a result of the collision between
> >> two monorails in Walt Disney World. How could this happen? What a sad
> >> ending to the July 4th celebration.
> >
> > I notice that several YouTube videos have been posted and then removed.
> >
> > Gary
>
>
: ------> h t t p : / / proteinspill . com/
>
> --
> Brian Martsolf mart...@mindspring.com
> Big Brian's Disney page www.bigbrian-nc.com
> Postcards, Podcasts, and Trip Reports... Mousin' It Up! since 1997
I started to visit this site and got a warning from my browser it
contains known malware. Do not visit this site.
jt
BigBob
> > Brian Martsolf marts...@mindspring.com
> > Big Brian's Disney page www.bigbrian-nc.com
> > Postcards, Podcasts, and Trip Reports... Mousin' It Up! since 1997
>
> I started to visit this site and got a warning from my browser it
> contains known malware. Do not visit this site.
>
> jt
I had no problem with www.bigbrian-nc.com at all.
I guess you're talking about the "protein" URL?
My browser shows that page as "unavailable."
I bet that it is an address that my Spybot has immunized against?
FYI, I'm very well-protected against malware/viruses/etc. (serious
paid-for software, not just Spybot), so I just had to look. LOL
Disney Wizard the Fantasmic!
<a href="http://www.clickorlando.com/video/19956043/index.html" rel="nofollow">www.clickorlando.com/video/19956043/index.html</a>
There's a lot of noise, corrections are appreciated, this is what I could make of the dialogues;
Helpful Guests and Monorail Cast Members
MonoCM2: How many up there?
MonoCM1: One. The Driver, None here, one there.
MonoCM1: Heads up for DM?
Off camera: Yeah, they're on their way.
MonoCM1: Help them...[Indicates family in first compartment.]
Male Guest: What happened?
Little girl indicates Pink: This one just ...[uninteligible}
HG1, White Stripes: Is there some body in here?
MonoCM1: The Driver.
HG1: Can you hear us?
HG2: Hey!
HG1: [tapping] Can you me?... Can you me?...
HG1: [to Mono CM1, uninteligble, assumed question - Is there another way in there?]
MonoCM1: [points to escape hatch on roof] Guys, no cameras, no cameras!
BigBob wrote:
Proteinspill references a request for (inside track CM) backstage comments and points toI guess you're talking about the "proteinspill" URL? My browser shows that page as "unavailable." I bet that it is an address that my Spybot has immunized against? FYI, I'm very well-protected against malware/viruses/etc. (serious paid-for software, not just Spybot), so I just had to look. LOL
http://www.clickorlando.com/video/19956043/index.html in a screenshot.
Disney Wizard the Fantasmic!
Botched attempt to switch train to another track may have caused fatal Disney World monorail accident
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8:54 PM EDT, July 6, 2009
Disney places three monorail employees on paid leave in wake of deadly crash
The National Transportation Safety Board said Monday it will investigate the deadly collision on Walt Disney World's famous monorail, an unprecedented move by a federal agency best known for probing commercial airline crashes.
The announcement came as others looking into Sunday's crash appeared to zero in on what may have been a botched attempt to switch a train from one track to another.
The 2 a.m. crash occurred as one of Disney's trains was supposed to be using a spur to transfer from the resort's Epcot line to a Magic Kingdom line so it could return to the system's maintenance bay for the night.
But the switch was never completed. Instead, the train apparently moved in reverse back down the Epcot line -- with an onboard collision-avoidance system likely on override -- and slammed into a second train with a handful of passengers on board.
Disney confirmed Monday that the accident happened while one train was being transferred off its Epcot line for the night and said it had already taken several precautionary steps. Among them: Ensuring that multiple employees verify track-switch positions before signaling trains to proceed.
One of the monorail pilots, 21-year-old Austin Wuennenberg of Kissimmee, was pronounced dead at the scene. The other pilot, who has not been identified, was not seriously injured. Disney said none of the guests was hurt.
In addition to the NTSB, the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration dispatched to two investigators from its Tampa field office to examine the accident.
Disney reopened the monorail system to guests Monday afternoon, about 36 hours after the accident, though it stopped permitting guests to ride in the pilot cabins.
The NTSB has never before exercised jurisdiction at Disney World, which has handled virtually all of its own ride-safety oversight, including the monorail, since opening in 1971.
But after reviewing preliminary information gathered by Disney World safety investigators, the NTSB decided Monday afternoon to launch a full investigation. An investigator was expected to fly in from Los Angeles on Monday night.
"We'll be going on scene and working with Disney there. We understand that OSHA is already involved," NTSB spokesman Peter Knudson said. "We'll be looking at operating control systems, and their procedures, and the different procedures they use on the monorail to position trains."
The NTSB investigation is unprecedented. Not only has the federal agency never before sought to investigate a monorail crash at either Disney World or at Disneyland in California, Knudson said he could not recall a single investigation involving an all-private transit system operating on private land. But he said NTSB officials determined they have jurisdiction in this case.
"It is a widely used transportation system that is used by the public," he said.
Disney pledged full cooperation.
"We look forward to talking with them, as we are with the other agencies who are investigating," Disney spokesman Michael Griffin said.
Expect the NTSB, like the others, to pay particular attention to how Disney's monorail trains move from one line to another.
The resort's 38-year-old monorail system today has three main lines anchored by the Transportation and Ticket Center near the Magic Kingdom parking lot. Two of the lines encircle the Seven Seas Lagoon and link the Magic Kingdom with three hotels and the parking lot; the third loop runs from the TTC to Epcot and back. A short spur connects the Epcot line to one of the Magic Kingdom lines; a second spur connects that Magic Kingdom line with the monorail's maintenance center.
Trains moved from the main lines to the spurs and back again through a series of switches, including two just beyond the TTC that connect the Epcot line with the outer Magic Kingdom line. To make that transfer, a train on the Epcot track pulls just beyond the first switch, waits for the track to move into its new position, then reverses direction along the short spur to the Magic Kingdom line.
Several former monorail pilots interviewed by the Orlando Sentinel said it appeared that one of the trains involved in Sunday's accident was waiting to move from the Epcot track to the spur when it was mistakenly given the signal to begin backing up -- even though the track's switch didn't change. As a result, the pilot at the helm of the train thought he was moving onto the spur when he in fact he was moving back down the Epcot line.
At the same time, the former pilots said, the second train waiting on the Epcot line was probably told to begin advancing toward the Transportation and Ticket Center. That's where the two trains collided.
Such a scenario could explain how the two trains crashed despite an onboard anti-collision system that is designed to bring a train to an automatic stop when it comes too close to another train ahead of it. That's because the pilots must override the system when transferring between tracks.
A train advancing on override can move no faster than 15 mph.
"It seems like the [first] train was cleared to back onto the spur line, and onto the exterior beam, and what happened was the switch was not in that position," said Richard Neilan, who spent three years as a monorail pilot in the mid-1980s.
Mistakes could have occurred at several points in the process, the former pilots said. To move a train between tracks, for instance, an operator in the monorail system's main control center must radio to the system's maintenance shop and request that it activate the switches; once the shop alerts the control center that the track has been repositioned, the operator radios the monorail pilot to begin advancing.
"It seems like there was some miscommunication between the lead at monorail central or at the shop that moves the switches," Neilan said.
Disney has a system in place to record the conversations between the monorail pilots and the control operators, which investigators are certain to request.
Sarah Lundy of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Jason Garcia can be reached at jrg...@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5414. Scott Powers can be reached at spo...@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5441.
Related stories
From the Orlando Sentinel
From other Orlando sources
Dillon Pyron
>In article
><eb6ac3c3-072c-4d69...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> BigBob <BigB...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Informed speculation over on MiceChat, believes that it was actually
>> monorail pink that backed into monorail purple.
>>
>> http://micechat.com/forums/news/119188-monorail-crash-kills-driver-stuns-passe
>> ngers-disney-world.html
>>
>> "The short, short version is that Monorail Central cleared Monorail
>> Pink in reverse into the Concourse (the Epcot side of the TTC) station
>> without being aware that Monorail Purple was still in the station.
>> Pink was cleared with MAPO override, meaning that the driver would
>> have disabled the anti-collision system (there are a variety of
>> legitimate reasons for doing this), and would have been acting on
>> faith that Central wouldn't have cleared him into a dangerous
>> situation because it sometimes is difficult to see everything you'd
>> want to in the cab mirrors, particularly at night on a curve such as
>> the one he was backing along."
>>
>> There is a whole lot more to this comment, and some back-and-forth, in
>> the MiceChat thread.
>
>I'm surprised there isn't a rear view video system armed with lower end
>night vision technology.
US first gen viewers can be had for under $300 for mono view and under
$500 for binoc. Russian third gen run around $800, but they're crap.
But you're right, all they would need would be a 1st gen and a camera.
It's not as if you're looking for a camo'ed man creaping through
brush.
Sigh, this is a really sad story. In a week, everyone will still be
talking about the trains, but very few will be talking about the
humans.
--
- dillon I am not invalid
"Jimmy, I'm sorry your girlfriend turned out
to be a cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"