Re: Tango Shmango
Peter D
>and might be reading on a tiny, tiny screeen and have swollen thumbs from
>reading the rest of the other thread. Tomorrow I'll pacify those who are
>otherwise Usenet-challenge :-) >
It's Paris, France. And you are shocked that they are snobbish, elitish,
pretentious, aloof, critical, and snotty? You have much to learn. My best
recommendation? Move to another country. :-)
"Jack Jarmush" <rar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159272050....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, I am frustrated with the Paris Tango scene, I am an ok dancer
> (intermediate), started dancing Tango 12 years ago and have taken
> lessons in Argentina, I didn't really go out to Milongas alone until
> this year. I am so disappointed, last night I went to a Milonga here in
> Paris at the '9 Billiards' and waited 2 hours to dance because everyone
> was paired up and when there was some stray girls to ask they say no
> (make an excuse like "I'm resting, then dance with the next guy who
> asks). I am refused by most of the girls I ask, they don't know me and
> don't know if I am a good dancer or not. When one girl agreed to dance
> with me after I said "please just one" she sat down beside me after and
> lectured me for 15 minutes on how I should dance, as if I didn't know
> anything. I am a mostly self-taught dancer, I am a Jazz musician and
> have listened to and played Tango for many years and seen it a lot
> because my ex-wife was Argentinean and a professional dancer. In Paris
> the dancers are very good but they all do the same steps that they
> learned from there teachers, when I dance I improvise and make steps up
> but they think I make a mistake but I am just improvising. It seems
> that when I lead a move that they were not taught in class they think
> it's a mistake. I am insulted and vibed every time I go out to dance, I
> am a 39 year old, not unattractive man and don't understand why I am
> treated like a leper at the Milongas. I find the attitude of most of
> the dancers pretentious, after all, it is just a dance. I am
> considering to stop going to Milongas because of this pretentious
> attitude, I especially hate it when a girl starts telling me to listen
> to the music, as if I'm not, as if I don't know the music very well and
> play it, they are the ones who have a problem interpreting the music
> and blame me for it. Any advise for this solo dancer in a strange
> country?
>
Ed Jay
>>Top-posted because today I'm pacifiying the people who don't like to scroll
>>and might be reading on a tiny, tiny screeen and have swollen thumbs from
>>reading the rest of the other thread. Tomorrow I'll pacify those who are
>>otherwise Usenet-challenge :-) >
Because you think that traditional Usenet etiquette and practice is
something to be abandoned does not make those of us who adhere to the
standards 'challenged.' In my mind, those who don't adhere are the ones who
are challenged.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
Peter D
news:1159272050....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Any advise for this solo dancer in a strange country?
Follow-up to my other post:
If you must stay, I can think of two options:
1) Develop an attitude and act like the sun rises on your smile and sets at
your choosing. Treat everyone with disdain and no regard -- but don't be
directly rude. There has to be subtlety. The point is to leave them
wondering if you insulted them or not. Don't beg any woman to dance ever
again. Indicate you might be interested and if she approached your periphery
you might offer to let her dance with you at some point in the evening.
After a few weeks of this they'll be begging you to dance with them. Such is
the life of the shallow.
2) Find another club, probably the "poor" and "working class" districts,
especially an ethnic enclave. Paris has a history with Argentina, even named
a street and a Metro for the nation. Argentina helped France after the war,
especially Paris, and provided shiploads of beef and grain to feed the
French people. The "Balloom Tango" was Paris' answer to the raunchiness (and
authenticity) of Argentine Tango btw. If that doesn't illustrate what the
city does to another's culture, I don't know what would. I'm sure if you can
find an Argentine immigrant enclave you'll have all the clubs and authentic
people you could ever want.
Here's a few pages for you to consider:
http://members.ping.at/kdf-wien/tango/#Dance (where to dance, many
countries, scroll down for links in and around Paris)
http://www.letempsdutango.com/ AT site for Paris and area (in French and
English)
If you are willing to travel and discover new places, try Belgium
(http://www.tango.be/)
Google "argentine tango paris" and you will find many, many more links. Have
fun sorting the wheat from the chaff.
Peter D
news:lleih25htkfj8c1ee...@4ax.com...
Did I say anything about those who must bottom-post regardless, Ed? No I
didn't. Unlike some (not you afaik) I dont' judge the worthiness of a
contributer or contribution on the placement of the content, the inclusion
of what I consider to be too maby (or too few!) lines, the line width used,
whether they change a subject line or not, or any other the other general
nitpicks that came up in the thread.
I will say again in the hope that constant repetition will lead to clarity
of communication. There are times when top-posting is appropriate. At those
times it is a useful choice.
Bob Wheatley
In an attempt to help you, here are a few key points that "stick out" for
me.
>I am a mostly self-taught dancer, >
Never a good sign. Every genre has it's own "rules" and character and the
only way to really know is to pay to learn from those that know.
> In Paris
> the dancers are very good but they all do the same steps that they
> learned from there teachers, when I dance I improvise and make steps up
> but they think I make a mistake but I am just improvising. It seems
> that when I lead a move that they were not taught in class they think
> it's a mistake.
This sounds like you may be more of an Argentine style and the socials you
are attending are more of a ballroom style. Care to elaborate more?
> I especially hate it when a girl starts telling me to listen
> to the music, as if I'm not, as if I don't know the music very well and
> play it, they are the ones who have a problem interpreting the music
> and blame me for it. Any advise for this solo dancer in a strange
> country?
If there are many who claim you need help and instruction and yet you refuse
and maintain you are right and they are wrong, who are we to believe?
Who would you believe? Care to elaborate?
Bob Wheatley
Ed Jay
>"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:lleih25htkfj8c1ee...@4ax.com...
>> Peter D scribed:
>>
>>>>Top-posted because today I'm pacifiying the people who don't like to
>>>>scroll
>>>>and might be reading on a tiny, tiny screeen and have swollen thumbs from
>>>>reading the rest of the other thread. Tomorrow I'll pacify those who are
>>>>otherwise Usenet-challenge :-) >
>>
>> Because you think that traditional Usenet etiquette and practice is
>> something to be abandoned does not make those of us who adhere to the
>> standards 'challenged.' In my mind, those who don't adhere are the ones
>> who
>> are challenged.
>
>Did I say anything about those who must bottom-post regardless, Ed? No I
>didn't.
I picked up on your statement a few days ago in which you said traditional
Usenetiquette was obsolete and should be abandoned as such.
>Unlike some (not you afaik) I dont' judge the worthiness of a
>contributer or contribution on the placement of the content, the inclusion
>of what I consider to be too maby (or too few!) lines, the line width used,
>whether they change a subject line or not, or any other the other general
>nitpicks that came up in the thread.
Only a fool would judge content based on presentation.
>
>I will say again in the hope that constant repetition will lead to clarity
>of communication. There are times when top-posting is appropriate. At those
>times it is a useful choice.
>
Chronological posting is, IMHO, the only posting that's appropriate.
trish_...@hotmail.com
Jack wrote:
>I am refused by most of the girls I ask, they don't know me and
> don't know if I am a good dancer or not.
1) You are an outsider, a newbie to their dance community. Any dance
community is about dance but it's also about socializing, friendship,
community. Granted, anyone should be able to waltz in and be accepted
or not based solely on their dancing, but that's rarely the case. You
are in their backyard. Learn to play their game before you try to
change it. Take group lessons from a local instructor. This will
introduce you to some of the other dancers on your level, ask where
other students in your class go to dance and visit those places
yourself - you will see people you know from class who will be much
more willing to be friendly and dance with you. Anytime a club has a
lesson before the dance, show up early and take the lesson. You'll be
meeting and dancing with women who will want to dance later that same
evening. Each venue you visit or take a class at should, ideally, lead
you to another venue, another class, another teacher. Once your face
becomes more familiar on the tango circuit, once women start seeing you
in classes and on the dance floor at a variety of venues, you will be
more accepted and women will much more willing to dance with you.
Jack wrote:
>I am a mostly self-taught dancer, I am a Jazz musician and
> have listened to and played Tango for many years and seen it a lot
> because my ex-wife was Argentinean and a professional dancer. In Paris
> the dancers are very good but they all do the same steps that they
> learned from there teachers, when I dance I improvise and make steps up
> but they think I make a mistake but I am just improvising.
2) I know you are a musician. I know you are self-taught. I know you
like to improvise. But being self-taught, are you really sure you are
competently leading what you're trying to improvise? If, as you say,
you are intermediate level at best with limited actual floor time
experience, chances are the women who are consenting to dance with you
feel they have gotten some kind of wild man on the dance floor. I'm
sorry if the following sounds harsh, but if you can't lead solid basics
then you have no business trying to improvise with followers you don't
know if you want to be accepted and taken seriously.
Jack wrote:
> It seems
> that when I lead a move that they were not taught in class they think
> it's a mistake.
3) Let's say for the sake of argument that you ARE the best leader in
the world even tho' you have no training whatsoever. Good for you. But
take into consideration the level and mentality of your follower,
especially if you don't know her and have never danced with her before.
Unless the follower is of the highest level, chances are that what you
are trying to lead & improvise is totally outside her range of
experience and her comfort zone. Furthermore, if she doesn't know what
you are doing and is having trouble following your improvisations, her
fear of looking foolish is going to compound the situation and make it
even worse. No one, man or woman, likes to look foolish out on the
dance floor and if she's dancing with someone she doesn't know who
doesn't do any familiar basics or patterns and who is difficult to
follow as well, IMO you are doing her a disservice. And let's not
forget that this woman is going to return to her girlfriends after the
dance and of course they will ask, "How was he??" and she will give
them her not very favorable impression of dancing with the American
wild man who just pulled her around the dance floor for 3 minutes. What
do you think her girlfriends are going to say when you ask them do
dance?? OTOH, a truly advanced/top level follower might just get a
kick out someone who does something different, providing of course that
you can actually lead what you improvise. But for the average
beginning/intermediate level follower? Not a chance.
IMO, Unless you are "all that and a bag of chips" on the dance floor,
you're much better off being patient and working your way gently into
the community. Besides, a few lessons won't hurt, you may actually
learn something, and a leader who can truly lead (and I mean REALLY
lead well) who combines basics and standard patterns with truly leading
improvisation - well, that's a special thing.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, this is JMO on your situation as a woman, a
follower, a teacher, and someone who, for some reason, (gawd, I hate
my good nature sometimes!!!) attracts the wild man on the dance floor
who thinks he's gotten a bright shiny new toy to play with just because
I can follow.
Bon chance!
:^)
t
Kim Sifter
back into r.a.d., Trish had already covered most my points (quite well
too). I'll add one other option.
Take some private lessons. Find a Parisian pro (female) and hopefully
with a broad background, maybe having danced in Argentina so she would
have an idea of the envinronment that incubated your style. And let
her be the judge of your abilities. She'll be able to assess where you
fit in and as Trish pointed out, we ladies do pass on info
(okay...chat, gossip, kvetch, what have you) and word will get out. I
know if I had a student that came to me, new in town and was a really
great dancer, I'd be on him like white on rice.
I would also add my support to taking group classes. The socialization
aspect of rotating is huge.
Bummer that you're having this not so good experience in Paris. I too,
love Paris and have been many times although never to dance. It would
be a shame if these experiences curtail your dancing or drive you from
Paris.
'a bientot,
Kim
Robert J Emmons
> Hi, I am frustrated with the Paris Tango scene, I am an ok dancer
> (intermediate), started dancing Tango 12 years ago and have taken
> lessons in Argentina, I didn't really go out to Milongas alone until
> this year. I am so disappointed, last night I went to a Milonga here in
> Paris at the '9 Billiards' and waited 2 hours to dance because everyone
> was paired up and when there was some stray girls to ask they say no
> (make an excuse like "I'm resting, then dance with the next guy who
> asks). I am refused by most of the girls I ask, they don't know me and
> don't know if I am a good dancer or not. When one girl agreed to dance
> with me after I said "please just one" she sat down beside me after and
> lectured me for 15 minutes on how I should dance, as if I didn't know
> have listened to and played Tango for many years and seen it a lot
> because my ex-wife was Argentinean and a professional dancer. In Paris
> the dancers are very good but they all do the same steps that they
> learned from there teachers, when I dance I improvise and make steps up
> that when I lead a move that they were not taught in class they think
> am a 39 year old, not unattractive man and don't understand why I am
> treated like a leper at the Milongas. I find the attitude of most of
> the dancers pretentious, after all, it is just a dance. I am
> considering to stop going to Milongas because of this pretentious
> to the music, as if I'm not, as if I don't know the music very well and
> play it, they are the ones who have a problem interpreting the music
> and blame me for it. Any advise for this solo dancer in a strange
> country?
I have just one piece of advice. Ask the woman to dance with your
eyes before you ask with your mouth. If the women will not make eye
contact with you, find another place.
--
Robert Emmons
remmonsR...@aurigen.com
Peter D
> Peter D scribed:
>
>>"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>>news:lleih25htkfj8c1ee...@4ax.com...
>>> Peter D scribed:
>>>
>>>>>Top-posted because today I'm pacifiying the people who don't like to
>>>>>scroll
>>>>>and might be reading on a tiny, tiny screeen and have swollen thumbs
>>>>>from
>>>>>reading the rest of the other thread. Tomorrow I'll pacify those who
>>>>>are
>>>>>otherwise Usenet-challenge :-) >
>>>
>>> Because you think that traditional Usenet etiquette and practice is
>>> something to be abandoned does not make those of us who adhere to the
>>> standards 'challenged.' In my mind, those who don't adhere are the ones
>>> who
>>> are challenged.
>>
>>Did I say anything about those who must bottom-post regardless, Ed? No I
>>didn't.
>
> I picked up on your statement a few days ago in which you said traditional
> Usenetiquette was obsolete and should be abandoned as such.
That's not what I said. :-)
>>Unlike some (not you afaik) I dont' judge the worthiness of a
>>contributer or contribution on the placement of the content, the inclusion
>>of what I consider to be too maby (or too few!) lines, the line width
>>used,
>>whether they change a subject line or not, or any other the other general
>>nitpicks that came up in the thread.
>
> Only a fool would judge content based on presentation.
>>
>>I will say again in the hope that constant repetition will lead to clarity
>>of communication. There are times when top-posting is appropriate. At
>>those
>>times it is a useful choice.
>>
> Chronological posting is, IMHO, the only posting that's appropriate.
OK.
Peter D
> Peter D wrote:
>> 1) Develop an attitude and act like the sun rises on your smile and sets
>> at
>> your choosing. Treat everyone with disdain and no regard -- but don't be
>> directly rude. There has to be subtlety. The point is to leave them
>> wondering if you insulted them or not. Don't beg any woman to dance ever
>> again. Indicate you might be interested and if she approached your
>> periphery
>> you might offer to let her dance with you at some point in the evening.
>> After a few weeks of this they'll be begging you to dance with them. Such
>> is
>> the life of the shallow.
>
Er, it was kinda tongue in cheek. :-)
>> 2) Find another club, probably the "poor" and "working class" districts,
>> especially an ethnic enclave. Paris has a history with Argentina, even
>> named
>> a street and a Metro for the nation. Argentina helped France after the
>> war,
>> especially Paris, and provided shiploads of beef and grain to feed the
>> French people. The "Balloom Tango" was Paris' answer to the raunchiness
>> (and
>> authenticity) of Argentine Tango btw. If that doesn't illustrate what
>> the
>> city does to another's culture, I don't know what would. I'm sure if you
>> can
>> find an Argentine immigrant enclave you'll have all the clubs and
>> authentic
>> people you could ever want.
>
> I found one place near where I live (19eme) where the old people dance,
> they are friendly but often more men then women.
That's odd -- demographically and statistically speaking that is.
Interesting. Anyway, make firends, dance., enjoy, have fun -- and listen to
the "elders".
Peter D
> For the not so funny humour of it here are some of the bad reactions
> I've had trying to dance Tango in Paris:
>
> 1. After the dance, she snarls at me DEBUTANT !! (beginner) and begins
> to shout at me and make a scene..... she turned out to be a teacher who
> likes to destroy the student first.
I think a friend of mine has met her! Unless there are two pyscho AT
teacher-dancers in Paris. :-)
> 2. After dancing with a beginner follower on a very crouded floor in
> close embrace, she glares at me and says "vous etes de mallad" (you are
> sick !)
>
> 3. She insists that I lead ochos with the chest only and not the hand
> because the hand is manipuative!
I have heard the first but not the last. IIRC, "authentic" AT is "from the
chest" (or better, from the man's core)
> Why do Tango dancers take themselves sooo seriously ?
Well, in some circles it's part of the "art". I mentioned to someone locally
a comment I read in rad by an AT dancer, something about not actually asking
a woman but arching the eyebrows or using the eyes. He -- a 15+ year AT
veteran -- said, "I just ask". What is important in one group isn't in
another. Then there is the passon for precision and authenticity. That often
means that anyone who claims anything is "from Bueoss Aries" speaks the Law
and must be obeyed.
> IMHO it's pretentious.
It's Paris. They're French. Why are you so surprised? :-)
> How is it that I can dance with a very good follower who has a good
> time and compliments me after and then dance with another who feels the
> need to insult me?
Different strokes for different folks. Don't take it so personal (although a
"DEBUTANTE" venomously hurled can hardly be taken any other way).
Ron N.
> Hi, I am frustrated with the Paris Tango scene, I am an ok dancer
Having an elitist standard seems common to some fraction
of Tango communities. Some Tango communities sound like they
don't even consider what other Tango communities dance as
"Real Tango"(tm). From that kind of distorted point-of-view,
you might appear to be awful instead of OK, just by dancing to
a different dance community standard.
> I am refused by most of the girls I ask, they don't know me and
> don't know if I am a good dancer or not.
That might be why they refuse you. In some Tango communities,
they make it sound almost equivalent to a death sentence to
be seen dancing with someone who doesn't make them look good
to all their other Tango aficionados in the room. Or so it's rumored.
You either have to work your way up the ladder (take lessons, but
only from that communities list of approved "Real Tango"(tm)
instructors), then make other followers look good in the eyes of
those with whom you want to dance. Or you need to find a more
accepting and friendly Tango community (fortunately, they do
exist).
> I am a mostly self-taught dancer, I am a Jazz musician and
> have listened to and played Tango for many years and seen it a lot
> because my ex-wife was Argentinean and a professional dancer.
1) Musicians don't necessarily interpret music they same way
that partner dancers do.
2) Self-taught dancers don't learn what it is that a given dance
community considers "good dancing" (different communities
have completely different standards, ask a WCS club dancer
about franchise ballroom WCS, or even some Lindy dancers
about whether this "Westie" stuff is "Real"(tm) swing. :^)
3) Even a professional Argentine show dancer might be
seen as not a "Real Tango"(tm) dancer by some communities.
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
Ron N.
>
> Well, in some circles it's part of the "art".
It certain seems so in a few AT circles. I just consider it a
wierd artifact of the subculture.. Is it the business, the history,
the music, some chemical in BA water, or something else?
SwinginInTheHood
As much as I'd like to join in on the French bashing, the truth is it's
like that in lots of places. Particularly places where you find lots of
"good" dancers. I'm here in beautiful, sunny, Southern California.
The place where I dance West Coast Swing, the Hacienda Hotel in El
Segundo, California, has a reputation for having some of the snottiest,
snobbish people around. And, if there's anything worse than a fool,
it's an old fool. I've also seen (and heard of) similar attitudes at
certain Salsa locales around town (Salsa is perhaps the most popular
dance in Los Angeles).
Truth is, when some people get good in dance, they see that as making
them better than other people, and they protect that status by not
involving themselves with people they think of as their lessors. And,
sometimes they don't even have to be good. If they are accepted into
the crowd, they take on it's attitudes. Sounds simplistic and silly,
but I see it in men and women dancers, in a variety of dance
disciplines, all the time.
Bottom line, from my perspective, is you pursue your love of dance
wherever it takes you. Paris is a big town, and I'm sure there are
lots of women there who are dying to dance with you. They may not be
as young, pretty or stylish as the... well, "ladies" in the joint
you're speaking of, but they are around and waiting for you. You've
just got to find them. And when you do, remember not to be as cruel
and heartless to them as others were to you.
And, you''ve got to chill out. People have a right not to like you, or
your dancing, for any reason they want. But you also have the right
not to let it affect you one way or the other. Yes, I know it's human
to not like rejection -- but if you let these people paint you into a
psychological corner, then they, like the terrorists, win. Remember:
When a woman turns you down and then accepts another dance on the same
song, she is violating one of the basic rules of social dance
etiquette. Screw her!
Don't stoop to their level, and don't let them bring you down.
-ron
p.s. Oops, by the way, I forgot to mention that I've been doing
Argentine Tango for the past year or so and love it to death. It has
become my most favorite dance. I've not run into your problem -- not
because it doesn't exist, but because I basically do Tango in the same
spots where they know me. However, when new girls come in, I always
try and dance with them at least once -- particularly if no one else
will. Operate like that, and see how popular you get. And you'll feel
good about yourself as well.
Jack Jarmush wrote:
> Thanks for the comments Peter D, Yes they are snobbish and elitist
> here, I am trying to find how to deal with that in all aspects of life
> in Paris, been trying for over a year, I am considering moving to NYC
> if I don't find some normal people soon. I do love Paris though....
Icono Clast
> Hi, I am frustrated with the Paris Tango scene
Your comments remind me of my 'Vegas story:
NO “NO!”
Or: Never Say “No!” a.k.a. The 'Vegas Story
Lightly edited from the November 22, 1994 original
Crossing Boulder Dam, recorded Big Band music was on the radio. The
announcer claimed that people were dancing at the Las Vegas
restaurant from which the broadcast emanated. When he gave the
address (Hey! I know where that is!) and announced the cheap dinner
special, there we went!
I had correctly speculated that the allegation of dancing was a lie
because the music wasn't suitable. Too bad because the floor was
large and looked very good.
After ordering, I asked the waiter “Who's the best dancer here?” He
pointed to a li'l ol' lady who turned me down.
After a while, a gorgeous woman came in. ‘AhHa!’, said I to me,
‘there's a dancer!’ I went to her escort to ask his permission to ask
her to dance. In my peripheral vision, I could see her vigorously
shaking her head and mouthing “No!” so he abided by her wish. Didn't
dance on that floor at all although I later heard that it's excellent.
Cuppla hours later, walked into a bar to ask the bouncer “Is this the
place?” He assured me it was. “Well,” said I, “do you mind if I
confirm that before paying the cover?” “Not at all.”
The downbeat was at Nine sharp. Indeed, it was the place! The music
and dancing were terrific!
After a bit of listening and watching, I sought a partner. I can't
tell you how many turned me down but almost enough to discourage me
into considering leaving in tears of anger and frustration before a
lovely, kind, pity-taking woman accepted my proffer'd hand. Many
curious eyes followed us to the floor with an absent-minded
“WhoHe/WhatDo?” glaze. When they saw . . . well, I wasn't turned down
again.
From that bar, we went as a group to another where 'Vegas-favorite
Jay Orlando was playing. Around one o'clock, the head-shaking woman
from the restaurant appeared. I caught the initial shock and surprise
on her face when she saw me. She watched me intently giving the
distinct impression that she wanted to dance with me. But I gave her
a look that, I hope, said, “[Go copulate with yourself, Female Dawg!]
Y'wanna dance with me you can crawl across the floor t'beg!” She
didn't. We didn't. A mutual loss.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Icono Clast
danced together so they could see us dance before we danced with them.
PARIS: May, 2000 Excerpts from What We Did in Paris
http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/ParisDid.html
. . . we went to the SLOW-CLUB (130 rue Rivoli) to dance. We
descended a flight of stone steps to get to the ticket booth and then
down another flight of stone steps to arrive at a large,
low-ceiling'd, cellar. The several rooms are separated by stone
arches. One room has a bar, a few small tables, and some dance space;
another a small platform for musicians and, of course, dance space;
yet another with some tables and dance space and perhaps more. The
playlist was the familiar classics of US Blues, Rock 'n' Roll, jazz,
and pop. They were fine but not exceptional in that famous club where
the greats of the post-war jazz world have performed.
Each of us danced with several others but they were doing their own
dance, Rock and Roll, that, although similar to, is different from
any of the dances that we do.
Near the end of the evening we danced to a song with several breaks.
We had the good luck to hit them all, each differently. The French
dance through the breaks; their wide eyes and dropt jaws indicated
that they'd never seen a dance such as they were witnessing. It was
perhaps the best dance my girlfriend and I had ever done in spite of
my fever and pneumonia and her being so tired from the day's
activities . . .
Our last Saturday evening we went to a special dance at the EQUINOXE,
a huge and apparent entertainment complex near the end of the Balard
line . . . The fascinating part was the intermission music that was
the same at each break: It was always in the same sequence and
included a Waltz, Rumba, ChaCha, Swing, Bolero, Tango, another or
two, and a Paso Doble. I had never before seen Paso Doble danced
socially and was greatly impressed by the loveliness of the dance as
well as the quality of the dancing and the great fun they were having
doing it.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Un San Francisqueño quien nunca dice ¡No! a una invitación a bailar.
Icono Clast
> Why do Tango dancers take themselves sooo seriously ?
I'm not a Tanguero but I have danced many dances in other countries
to find that, above all, Following is different. They've been taught
what they've been taught and have protocols that differ. If you
cannot adapt to them, the problem is yours.
Dances are different, too, sometimes to the point of being completely
different.
> 1. wow, you dance different than most people in Paris, I like it.
>
> 2. You dance very well..... where did you study?
>
> 3. You are alive when you dance.
Flautist to me: "What do you play?"
"Women."
Bandleader, seeing her raised eyebrow: "He dances."
"Oh."
The difference 'tween improvisation on the dance floor and the band
stand is that one instrument can be animate only when you make it so
but the other can regardless of what you do. Also, on the stand, the
other musicians have agreed to give you a phrase or three to hear how
you interpret the instant chart. A dance partner might insist that
you Follow the chart even if it's one different from the one she
thinks you're reading.
You have apparently not yet learned to read your partners. Those who
are willing to Follow your improvisations (i.e., steps they do not
know/have not learned) will let you know by how they Follow what you
Lead. Well, they should. As I said, I'm not a Tanguero.
There's an Argentine restaurant about a block from Place Bastille
across the street from a dance/jazz club.
> "First learn it, then forget it and just play"
> - Charlie Parker
Yeah, but y'gotta have the chops!
-- ________________________________________________________________
Drum machines have no soul.
Peter D
> Icono Clast wrote:
<snip>
>> A dance partner might insist that you Follow the chart even if it's
>> one different from the one she thinks you're reading.
>
>
>> You have apparently not yet learned to read your partners.
>
> to dance at least two songs to find each others footing ? When I play
> with a musician I've never played with before, on the first tune I feel
> him or her out to see what may be possible but keep it simple to start.
> The musician will not shout BeGINNER to another player just because
> they are playing simple and swinging. In Tango, out of respect I don't
> start leading complicated steps right away with a person I never danced
> with before but that doesn't mean I'm a beginner , it is just to feel
> each other out and in the next song maybe take some chances.
Jack you appear to be reacting defensively to what you perceive as an attack
on your dance skills. It's obvious that the "Debutante!" taunt has cut deep.
DOnt' let a snotty psycho AT teacher with obvious low self-esteem an danger
issues spoil your fun. A curt "FOAD" might be appropriate, but letting her
pyscho-bitchiness trouble you is giving her power she hasn't earned.
As I understand it, in Argentine Tango circles "improv" is more readily
allowed and experienced than in Ballroom Tango circles. But one must stay
within reasonable limits. The improvisation must stay within the core of the
dance. Freedom to express oneself within a stretched boundary if you like.
Just like in your Jazz playing, imporvisation that ceases to be "Jazz" is no
longer "Jazz improvisation". BTW, I don't want to stress the music analogies
too much, and ask you to forgive technical errors.I'm not a player and you
are. I'm simply trying to use them to relate some ideas to you.
As one who has a reputation for "improvising" let me share some expreiences
that may or may not help you understand some things.
Rule #1: Lead confidently, accurately, in a timely fashion, firmly, and
gently.
Rule #2: If a woman doesn't do what you want her to do, see Rule #1.
Unless a woman deliberately rejects your lead and refuses your invitation to
follow, what she does is a consequence of your leading. If she is
deliberately rejecting and/or refusing your lead, then consider whether you
are leading with confidence, accuracy, timliness, firmness, and gentleness.
If you are, and it's clear that she simply can't or won't dance with you,
then thank her for the dance thus far and escort her back to her seat with a
smile.
When I developed a passion for Latin rhythms and dance I was very much a
"beginner" ballroom dancer (still am in lots of ways!). I used to go to a
ballroom class followed by a practice dance, and then on to a Latin club and
dance until the wee hours. I found that the ballroom training gave me the
skills to dance well at the club, but the club gave me moves I'd never seen
in ballroom. Then when I danced 'ballroom' at a Sunday practice a lot of
these new moves would come out spontaneously as I enjoyed the music. Some
would be variations on what I'd seen or tried at the club, some would be
interpetations of the music at that moment. Sometimes I would be asked,
"what's that called?" "Where did you learn that move?" I'd answer with a
certain pride, "I made it up just now!" Such is improvisation. For most it
was a pleasant surprise, for some it was staying too far outside the box for
comfort. With the former I loved to try more things. With the latter I stuck
to syllabus moves.
I seemed to manage the lead well (another plus of ballroom training), only
getting the occasional complaint, and that was usually a positive criticism
intended to help me be a better dance. I became a popular dancer because I
was innovative, exciting, and passionate and it showed in my dancing. Some
of the "star" ladies, dancers I would always be shy about asking to dance
because they were so good, actually asked me to dance. So that was kinda
cool. :-)
I also loved Salsa so much that I danced Salsa whenever I could find the
rhythm regardless of the announced dance. Most often that meant doing a
Salsa to Mambo and Samba. I _always_ told the lady that was my intention --
"I know this is a Mambo, but would you like to Salsa to it?". It would be
inconsiderate to simply ask someone to dance to a Samba and then lead a
Salsa. Dancing Salsa to Samba might be considered improvising, but it's OK
as long as your partner knows (and agrees) to it.
So, consider the lead to be an honour and not a right. Don't improvise
without permission. And do enjoy yourself and findothers who will enjoy you
too.
Swin...@webtv.net
There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and
posthumously.
Thomas Sowell
JC Dill
wrote:
>They are dancing so-called Argentine Tango but with very strict
>rules...... it's like a jazz musician who plays the same licks over and
>over and isn't really improvising therefor missing the point.
Argentine Tango is a dance where you can break the rules, but only
after you know and understand the rules. Since you are self-taught
you don't know the rules and don't know how to *safely* break them.
That is why the follower tried to explain what you were doing that was
not sitting well with her (and presumably the others who have learned
to dance the same style).
I suggest lessons.
jc
--
"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."
~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA
Icono Clast
> Hey, Jack: I dance West Coast Swing, the Hacienda Hotel in El
> snottiest, snobbish people around.
I never heard that. And I've never experienced it during my several
visits there.
> And, you''ve got to chill out. People have a right not to like
> you, or your dancing
I have Followers who don't like me personally but enjoy dancing with
me and I know women who seem to like me but don't like dancing with
me but sometimes ask, anyway.
I think there are more questions than answers.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Un San Francisqueño quien nunca dice ¡No! a una invitación a bailar.
Icono Clast
>>> "First learn it, then forget it and just play" - Charlie
>>> Parker
>> Yeah, but y'gotta have the chops!
>
My reference was to "just play it". I know two Lead trumpet players
in particular who never take solos. They're excellent readers, are
much in demand, and have great chops but have no confidence in their
improvisational skills.
Jack Jarmush wrote:
> Icono Clast wrote: Sometimes a musician doesn't listen and the
> flow suffers, sometimes a dancer doesn't listen and the flow
> suffers.
A few months ago, he who might be our best local B-3 player was
outdoing himself when a trumpeter decided a bit of decoration was
needed. I, and others in the audience, as well as the other musicians
coulda killed him.
> Music, especially Jazz is IMO far more advanced in the art of
> improvisation than dance is.
No question but a musician's improvisations can be presented, even
with mistakes, without adversely effecting the other musicians. The
number? A dif'rent question.
> 1. Music - Organized sound 2. Dance - movement set to music
>
>> Also, on the stand, the other musicians have agreed to give you
>> a phrase or three to hear how you interpret the instant chart.
>
> On the jazz bandstand it is 99% improvisation, not a few phrases.
Forgive me for omitting the context in m'mind: Big Band.
>> A dance partner might insist that you Follow the chart even if
>> it's one different from the one she thinks you're reading.
>
> That's crazy !
>
>> You have apparently not yet learned to read your partners.
>
> Can you read your partner after one song or 1 min.
More often than not, yes. Actually, well before either "one". I
recently told about a woman in a bar in Prague [it Follows the sig]
who felt so good to me the moment she entered the frame I presented
to her that I started our first dance with a complicated series of
steps that she Followed precisely as I had intended. I correctly read
her skill by the second count of Two 'cause it was on Three that the
action really took off; she was there! Solid!
> Isn't it only fair to dance at least two songs to find each others
> footing ?
As many as you need, from the first bar of the first dance to never
being able to have a good dance with a particular Follower. There's
an outstanding Follower who competes, teaches, and participates in
this forum to whom I cannot give the dance I know we can have. I have
no idea why. I'm sure she's as aware of it as I. There are many far
lesser dancers to whom I consistently give good dances. I have no
idea how. It's magic . . . after all, when playing you don't always
swing yet there are times you swing so hard you remember them for
years as will the B-3 player, and those of us who heard him that
time, mentioned above.
> In Tango, out of respect I don't start leading complicated steps
> right away with a person I never danced with before
I don't in any dance. In fact, the dance mentioned above is the only
one I can recall, ever, with a total stranger when I Lead something
that complex with such confidence.
-- ________________________________________________________________
What is dancing but making love to the music? - Diana Krall
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
A local musician/band leader told me to say "Hello" to a friend at a
particular music venue. She was as cute as they come! It was Cuban
Music night there so I had dinner.
The quintette was very good. The tall Cuban leader did the
singing and some occasional claves, maracas, and gourd. He was
excellent in every respect. A guy introduced as a Peruvian was on
bongos, cow bell, and other percussion but he wasn't even Hispanic.
The bass guitarist, pianist, and trumpeter were Czechs. The trumpeter
wasn't any good but the others laid down a solid foundation. An
English tourist asked me whether they were any good as he'd never
before heard such music. I assured him that he was getting a treat.
A woman was video recording the performance. One number was
so good that I danced ChaCha, in a tiny space that I cleared behind
her, all by m'se'f. Later, I got up again to dance and, when I did a
turn, there she was! I wordlessly presented a frame; she stepped
right in to make a picture. Started off with a spin and a walk-around
from a cross over (she just felt so right breaking on 2) that she
followed beautifully. She followed everything well and parted with
"Gracias". Her husband is the Cuban singer. She's a Russian who also
speaks Czech but no English or Spanish.
Later, we danced a Mambo that was just as good as our ChaCha.
Proved to be a night of excellent music made better by two,
maybe three, very good dances.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Peter D
> Peter D wrote:
>> DOnt' let a snotty psycho AT teacher with obvious low self-esteem an
>> danger
>> issues spoil your fun. A curt "FOAD" might be appropriate, but letting
>> her
>> pyscho-bitchiness trouble you is giving her power she hasn't earned.
>
It's short for "F#$$# off and die!", often an expression of
frustration/anger on Usenet and a way to indicate the dialogue has abruptly
ended. The bottom line is to not let her have any power over you. Enjoy your
dancing -- it's yours after all, so don't let her or anyone else take it
away from you.
>> Just like in your Jazz playing, imporvisation that ceases to be "Jazz" is
>> no
>> longer "Jazz improvisation". BTW, I don't want to stress the music
>> analogies
>> too much, and ask you to forgive technical errors.I'm not a player and
>> you
>> are. I'm simply trying to use them to relate some ideas to you.
>
> Well said, it's true.
>
> Yesterday I took an 'itermediate' class with a very good teacher/dancer
> from BA, I gained back some confidence after being accepted in that
> level and not being insulted by anyone, in general the class was
> enjoyable and I learned something about leading . The teacher even
> talked about the 'attitude' in Paris , saying that in Argentina Tango
> is a 'popular' dance and as long as you dance to the music and with
> 'sensation' you are ok but in Paris, for some reason, some people take
> it as an elitist thing which even the teacher commented on without me
> saying anything to him about my bad experiences. He watched me dance
> with improvisation at the end of the class and told me it was good,
> just Tango and normal. He gave me some corrections but in a nice way
> and told me I dance well. Tonight I may take a lesson with a women.
Sounds good. Keep up the good work. As someone else suggested, taking
lessons locally is a good thing. It will give you contact with others, make
hew friends, introduce you to potential partners, and let others know (and
possibly evaluate) your dance skills and levels. You will cease to be an
unknown dancer and become fmailiar to others. That will lead to
introductions, handshakes, and hugs, and you will find your niche and begin
to develop friuendships and dance partnerships.
Peter D
> JC Dill wrote:
> > Since you are self-taught you don't know the rules and don't know how to
> > *safely* break them.
You're jumping to an (unfair) conclusion that a self-taught person doesn't
know the rules. Not true. A self-taught person may not know the rules, but
it's not an automatic cause/effect. A taught perso nmay not know the rules,
may know them and ignore them, may have been taught the wrong set of rules,
or may have been taught them but forgotten them. A self-taught perosn may
have learned them by observation or asking others, applied common sense to
the situation and thus "learned" them without any actual "lesson" being
taught, or simply mimicked the behaviour of others and thus create the
illusion of knowing the rules when really all (s)he is doing is copying
others.
> Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know anything?
> I think people take too many lessons for everything these days
> Sometimes if you teach yourself something and take lessons after, it is
> just a confirmation that you did learn it. There is soooo much info on
> everything on this Internet thing that one can learn a lot more on your
> own now than pre-internet days. With a good tango video with commentary
> and reading and practising I beleive one can learn Tango on there own.
> The so-called Tangueros of BA that people are lining up to dance with
> are all self-taught. Have you noticed that there is less originality
> these days, more conformity, why do you think that is?
I think taking lessons is a personal decision. If your friend wants to learn
the harmonica, what's it to you? If someone wants to learn to dance this way
or that, what do you care? But, dance -- unlike playing the harmonica -- is
rarely a _sole_ pursuit.
Dance alone tonight and you'll soon see that you need another to dance well
or with enjoyment. Dance, by it's very nature, is a co-operative venture.
Taking lessons (hopefully) helps you learn how to interact with that "other"
in the partnership. The Internet, a book, or a video cannot replace that
actual human with whom you share the dance. Only with a human being will you
have those "ahhh" moments of sheer bliss and connection that you will recall
with a smile in your old age, as you lay in your bed and can dance no more.
christin...@hotmail.com
> Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
> anything?
I don't know if the other followers reading this thread are thinking
the same thing as I am, but I can give you my answer. There are three
reasons in this case:
1) You have already stated that you are called a beginner by dance
partners and repeatedly turned down for dances at local clubs, which
could be an indication that your self-taught leading skills are not as
good as you think they are. Not having had the opportunity to dance
with you, I can not tell whether your estimation of the quality of your
dancing is more or less accurate than the opinions of the women you
have quoted for us. You are assuming that they don't want to dance with
you because they are snobby and stuck in a narrow interpretation of
tango. How do you know for sure that that is why they don't want to
dance with you? Perhaps they are open to improvisation, but you are
not leading your invented moves in a way that they can effectively
respond to and enjoy?
2) Personal experience. Most followers have had plenty of experiences
being yanked around by leaders who have not been taught how to lead
properly. You responsibility as a leader gets even greater when you
are improvising. You not only have to think of what you think would be
an interesting move at that point in time, but you also have to pay
close attention to whether or not your follower is picking up on your
unfamiliar moves and is on the same page as you. Is she on the correct
foot to go in that direction? Where is her weight at the beginning of
the move? Will she be able to easily go in that direction with her
weight on that foot or will she be thrown off balance? Some leaders who
improvise a lot are self-absorbed and leave the follower in awkward
positions, in danger of looking bad and getting injured. We have no way
of telling without seeing you dance or dancing with you whether you are
leading your improvisations in such a way that the follower has a
decent chance of enjoying them.
3) You can learn a lot from your own instincts and from the internet
and videos. But to reject what you can learn from lessons is just
plain egotistical. We can all learn something from nearly every
instructor and every partner. There is no way you can learn how the
follower is experiencing what you are attempting to lead by mimicking a
video. A video can't tell you if you are adequately giving your partner
recognizable signals. The physical feedback from the feel of your
partner's body and from the observations of an instructor are
invaluable. If you want other people to open your mind to you, you
need to open your mind to them as well.
I am not saying you are a bad leader or there is anything wrong with
improvising. But surely you can see how we have no way of assessing
your skills and the true nature of the problems you are having in the
Parisian tango scene just from your words on RAD. This is compounded by
the fact that there are no other tango dancers in Paris contributing to
this thread to give us any perspective aside from your own or to give
us new insights on the tango scene there.
Christine Elowitt
SwinginInTheHood
> SwinginInTheHood wrote:
> > Hey, Jack: I dance West Coast Swing, the Hacienda Hotel in El
> > Segundo, California, has a reputation for having some of the
> > snottiest, snobbish people around.
>
> I never heard that. And I've never experienced it during my several
> visits there.
I'm sure there are many people from the Paris club Monsieur Jarmush
speaks of who would also say the same.
> > And, you''ve got to chill out. People have a right not to like
> > you, or your dancing
>
> I have Followers who don't like me personally but enjoy dancing with
> me and I know women who seem to like me but don't like dancing with
> me but sometimes ask, anyway.
>
You're better than me. I don't ask people to dance who I personally
dislike. To me, that's being phoney and fake. But then, you find a
lot of that at the Hacienda as well. I mean, don't get me wrong. I
like the Hacienda, I like the DJs both on Tuesday and Thursday nights,
and I've gotten a lot from the place. It's a great place to learn. I
support it, and I send new people there whenever I can. But, I keep it
real also. As much as I love dance, I don't let it get in the way of
trying to be a decent human being.
And, decent human beings, in my opinion, don't do the things Jack
claims have been done to him.
-ron
Bob Wheatley
> Christine, You obviously didn't read my other posts or not carefully,
> if you did you would know that there is no reason to insult me.
>
We can all read what Christine wrote. Your snipping doesn't remove it.
But most importantly, your claim that it was an insult only serves to
destroy your credibility here. Particularly when your basic claim is that
you are being insulted in Paris.
I have not responded since my initial post because it was quickly apparent
that no sensible approaches would ever reach you.
I think Christine wasted her time and effort on a sensitive egomaniac who
simply will never "get it".
And yes, while the above is factual, it is also a real "insult".
Bob Wheatley
Ron N.
> With a good tango video with commentary
> and reading and practising I beleive one can learn Tango on there own.
Very unlikely. An average non-dancers observational powers are
usually quite poor. I've watched a fair number of dance classes.
The teacher usually demonstrates and correctly explains a movement,
then asks the class to do it. I see almost all the students do
something quite different from what was demonstrated, by various
degrees. Some of these students have smiles on their faces as if
they think they are doing the movement correctly. Not.
An private instructor (or good dance partner with whom you are on
honest speaking terms) will give you feedback about exactly where
you are (very likely) are quite deluded about how you move.
I know how deceived I am about my own dancing every time I look
in the mirror. (Who is that off-balance guy with poor posture I
see in the mirror? Whereas I am surely perfectly in balance and
standing up straight! :^) ...video, the same.
IMHO. YMMV.
Peter D
> Peter D wrote:
>> Only with a human being will you
>> have those "ahhh" moments of sheer bliss and connection that you will
>> recall
>> with a smile in your old age, as you lay in your bed and can dance no
>> more.
>
Thank you. Sometimes I do my best work during my morning coffee. :-)
Peter D
> Christine, You obviously didn't read my other posts or not carefully,
> if you did you would know that there is no reason to insult me.
Wow, Jack. I thought her post was very fair and balanced. Her last paragraph
is below. I thought she madean effort to make sure you understood where she
was ocming form and was trying to be as fair as possible.
"I am not saying you are a bad leader or there is anything wrong with
improvising. But surely you can see how we have no way of assessing your
skills and the true nature of the problems you are having in the Parisian
tango scene just from your words on RAD. This is compounded by the fact that
there are no other tango dancers in Paris contributing to this thread to
give us any perspective aside from your own or to give us new insights on
the tango scene there."
And she gives a very important perspective -- that of the follower.
Ron N.
> partner not partner(s), repeatedly turned down by people that don't
> know me from Adam and never seen me dance, I never said I was very
> good, just ok.
That's part of the subculture in some circles. You have to be seen
making some other followers look good, before some of them will
take any risk on you making them look bad in public.
Swin...@webtv.net
Richard Maurer
an article which addressed Jack Jarmush's
concerns about fitting into the Paris Tango scene.
The article contained several good points that
Jack could pay attention to during lessons
while the other students were learning patterns.
Instead of thanking her, Jack's entire response was:
Christine, You obviously didn't read
my other posts or not carefully,
if you did you would know that there
is no reason to insult me.
Christine covered most of the points I was
going to make; I had a couple of things
to add, but I see that the effort would
be wasted on Jack.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul-Andre Panon
> JC Dill wrote:
>
> > Since you are self-taught
>
>>you don't know the rules and don't know how to *safely* break them.
>
>
> Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
> anything?
Do you follow as well as lead? If you do both, then it is possible to
believe that you can self-teach yourself to lead. However Argentine
Tango leads involve a lot of communicating intention through posture and
a careful balance between providing an invitation to lead and waiting
for a reply. While it may be possible to self teach this, it is highly
unlikely if you have only done it through visual observation instead of
experiencing it from both sides of the connection.
It's quite possible you do understand this since you mentioned having
taken some lessons in Argentina, but it's not clear how extensive those
lessons were. However, more than a few dancers have observed in posts in
this newsgroup that some of the worst people they've ever danced with
have been those who proudly claimed to be self-taught or "natural"
dancers. Hence some skepticism given the combination of your
"self-taught" claim, combined with the criticism you've been receiving.
Dancing is a lot harder to self-teach than music. In music what you hear
is what you get; there is no covert channel of information. It doesn't
matter if you play a trumpet like Dizzie Gillespie or with your cheeks
blown out like Sachmo; what matters is the sound that comes out. In
dancing, particularly tango, there is a whole covert channel of
communication through the body contact/connection that is not readily
apparent through visual inspection.
> Sometimes if you teach yourself something and take lessons after, it is
> just a confirmation that you did learn it. There is soooo much info on
> everything on this Internet thing that one can learn a lot more on your
> own now than pre-internet days. With a good tango video with commentary
> and reading and practising I beleive one can learn Tango on their own.
> The so-called Tangueros of BA that people are lining up to dance with
> are all self-taught.
Yes and no. They certainly invent their own steps and don't stick to the
basic repertoire. However they probably learned the basics of lead and
follow and musical interpretation from female and male relatives while
dancing at a very young age. Or they would have if it hadn't been for
the repression of tango by the junta in the 70's and 80's. They may not
have taken formal lessons, but make no mistake, most were taught the
basic lead and follow fundamentals by someone during social dancing.
> Have you noticed that there is less originality
> these days, more conformity, why do you think that is?
Um, perhaps it's all this talk of "Either you're with us (in allowing
torture and kangaroo courts), or you're supporting the terrorists"? If
dissent isn't allowed on such a major point, maybe people feel they had
better try to conform as much as possible on all the small stuff too.
But we digress...
If you tried to display your originality by doing a cool jazz
improvisation while the rest of your band is expecting a hot blues
number, do you think those musicians would be thrilled about playing
with you again?
Paul-Andre Panon
> Why do you feel the need to assess me ? I didn't ask for assessment but
> advise. Why don't you take my word as real ? why do you need
> confirmation from someone else? And if someone else from Paris posted,
> how would you take their word ? Why not give a stranger the benefit of
> the doubt that he's not a complete idiot?
It has recently been scientifically observed and reported that people
who are poor at a some skills or field of knowledge often have a much
higher opinion of their skill level than actually warranted. While we
are not saying that is the case with you, it is a possibility that
cannot be eliminated without further investigation, particularly given
the scenario that you described.
Your automatic defensive posture doesn't really help in this regard,
whereas a more detailed description of your understanding of tango
connection and lead and follow than "sorry but, No Shit !" might.
Paul-Andre Panon
> 3. She insists that I lead ochos with the chest only and not the hand
> because the hand is manipuative !
I don't really see why you would be doing both. If you're in close
embrace, then I've been told you should primarily be leading with the
chest, with your arm only helping to provide up or down impulse if
appropriate for the move (volcadas, going into pivots, etc.). In fact
you shouldn't be leading ochos through chest rotations in close embrace,
only through the side-to side action of side steps. You should either be
rotating your chest (with stationary feet) or shifting your weight
with no chest rotation. Anything more is superfluous and counterproductive.
If you're doing more open or salon tango, then it's more about using
frame, with your hand in her armpit again primarily to provide up or
down impulse cues. About the only time when your hand might be giving
non-vertical direction is if you've temporarily lost face to face
contact, such as with backward saccada or a promenade-type maneuver.
So yeah, compared to most other leaders, you probably do feel
manipulative. If you're having to lead with both, then you may not
getting the fundamental "invitation"/acceptance concept of leading in
tango, one which - I admit - I still have a looong way to go before I'll
have it mastered.
> Why do Tango dancers take themselves sooo seriously ? IMHO it's
> pretentious. Even a pro Tango dancer who teaches and performs in big
> shows is still just dancing a folk dance afterall. I've worked with
> some of the most amazing modern dancers in the world performing in the
> top theaters and even they don't take themselves so seriously. what is
> it with Tango that makes people loose their sence of humour?
>
As a musician, you probably enjoy playing music with kids, helping
newbies discover music, and playing with the music itself. But there's
probably times when you want to jam with other experienced musicians
without worrying about somebody constantly making false notes, and you
probably know a number of musicians who prefer to only play with other
accomplished musicians and not "amateurs". It takes all kinds to make a
world.
> .... and here are some good reactions;
>
> 1. wow, you dance different than most people in Paris, I like it.
>
> 2. You dance very well..... where did you study?
>
> 3. You are alive when you dance.
It sounds like your love of music inspires and feeds your love of
dancing. That's a great ability that you have that many other dancers
would envy. I hope you can find some way to resolve the issues you have
with the AT community in Paris.
> One more question for you crazy Tango people;
>
> How is it that I can dance with a very good follower who has a good
> time and compliments me after and then dance with another who feels the
> need to insult me?
Based on what I was told when I made similar observations about my
dancing in WCS: the great follower is probably good enough to compensate
for any parts of your leading skills that may be deficient thanks to
your "self-taught" skills and still enjoy your enthusiasm and your
musicality. Another less experienced follower may get too frustrated or
caught up in missing your leading signals to enjoy the good parts of
dancing with you. But, if that's the case, in the long run even the very
good followers may get tired of dancing with you if you don't improve
your lead and they're left with constantly having to compensate.
> I do love Tango and will continue but only if I find a partner to
> practise with.
Definitely a good idea, but try to find one to whom you'll be open to
feedback and criticism on your lead, what works with it and what
doesn't. Otherwise just buy an inflatable doll from a catalog.
> Maybe someone out there can understand why I don't want
> to follow a class too much. I don't want all those rules running around
> in my head to kill the creativity of it. Yes, I agree to learn more
> than the basics but afterwards create and forget all those oppressive
> rules, many which are invented so teachers can stretch out their
> classes to the end of the year.
Actually about the only rules I've heard in Tango involve floor
navigation conventions to avoid collisions on crowded Buenos Aires dance
floors.
The only other "rules" I can think of is to always know what foot the
follower is on (without looking down) so that you can know what lead
directions are open and available to you, and to place a short pause
after the initial lead/intention to allow the follower to communicate
her willingness (or unwillingness) to follow. To do the latter you have
to learn to listen to the follower's feedback through the connection at
the same time that you are leading; a tricky skill when the follower's
response is subtle.
> And how did those basic patterns start to begin with.... not from
> taking lessons.
From tangeros practicing with each other to see what worked and didn't
and to provide mutual feedback. But, from your prior posts, you
unfortunately don't seem to be readily accepting the feedback, here or
in the salon.
> IMHO Tango is very slow to progress, there is a traditionalist
> mentality that is passed down by teachers. Even now in 2006 many people
> have a problem with Astor Piazzolla and don't want to dance to it. He
> changed Tango in the 70's. at most Milongas the music is not only very
> old but with bad sound quality. There are so many new Tango groups out
> there making all kinds of changes to the music which is exciting but
> the Tango community doesn't like the changes, how will they use their
> patterns that they learned to Pugliese on that new music ?
I love Piazzolla, and I've danced both WCS and AT to Gotan Project,
B-Tribe and others. I find a lot of the most recent tango to be a little
like strict tempo ballroom. It's fast, with too much of an emphasis on
the beat and not enough emotional variation to allow playing with tempo
and listen to the connection feedback. Music like Gotan Project's, while
fun in short doses, doesn't encourage good tango connection.
I think it's a little like the purists who find that the "swing" feel is
lost when you primarily dance WCS to HipHop and Top-40 instead of music
with "swung beats". I think they have a point: like potato chips and
pork rinds, while it's an occasional tasty treat, it's also empty
calories and bad nutrition.
Icono Clast
> Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
> anything?
Experience.
> We all have the ability to self-learn, even when you take lessons,
> you still have to learn it yourself.
Perhaps but not necessarily to learn well.
> With a good tango video with commentary and reading and practising
> I beleive one can learn Tango on there own.
I don't think so. I wonder how many agree with you?
> I'm just saying it's possible to learn new steps alone (if you
> don't have a partner) and use them at a Milonga.
I agree with that but that ain't what you previously said.
Ron N. wrote:
> That's part of the subculture in some circles. You have to be
> seen making some other followers look good, before some of them
> will take any risk on you making them look bad in public.
Again I refer you to my 'Vegas story.
SwinginInTheHood wrote:
> Icono Clast wrote:
>> SwinginInTheHood wrote:
>>> People have a right not to like you, or your dancing
>> I have Followers who don't like me personally but enjoy dancing
>> with me and I know women who seem to like me but don't like
>> dancing with me but sometimes ask, anyway.
>>
> You're better than me. I don't ask people to dance who I
> personally dislike. To me, that's being phoney and fake.
It appears you mis-read what I said. Not the first time that's happened.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
JC Dill
wrote:
>Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
>anything?
You are A) self-taught and B) having problems dancing with the people
who are not self-taught. Consider the facts...
jc
--
"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."
~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA
JC Dill
>Jack Jarmush wrote:
>> Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
>> anything?
>
>I don't know if the other followers reading this thread are thinking
>the same thing as I am, but I can give you my answer.
Christine,
You saved me a lot of time by writing such a well thought out answer
that mirrors exactly what I was thinking. It's too bad that Jack
can't find a way to listen to the message within.
JC Dill
wrote:
>She didn't give ne the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, she did.
You don't want "benefit of the doubt", you want us to say you are a
great dancer and all the other dancers in Paris are snobs. But based
on your own words describing your background and experiences, we think
the problem lies with YOU not being a great dancer like you think, not
with everyone else. And we suggest you solve that problem by getting
lessons.
Up to you.
JC Dill
wrote:
>> > Why do most people think that if your self-taught you don't know
>> > anything?
>> Do you follow as well as lead? If you do both, then it is possible to
>> believe that you can self-teach yourself to lead.
>
>Yas, i learned that way from a leader and friend in BA.
First you said you were self-taught, now you say you "learned that
way" from a leader in BsAs. Can you please keep your story straight?
Again, I still think the problem you are experiencing can be *quickly
and easily* solved by taking some local lessons.
Ed Jay
>
>Paul-Andre Panon wrote:
>> It has recently been scientifically observed and reported that people
>> who are poor at a some skills or field of knowledge often have a much
>> higher opinion of their skill level than actually warranted.
>
>That is truly a stupid thing to say. you probably whent to university.
>Most people that have formal education have a bloated sence of their
>owm worth not the other way around.
Did you mean 'sense' and 'own?' It's amazing what one can learn about
spelling at the university level.
Now, speaking of inappropriate bloat:
>
January 18, 2000 (New York Times et al)
Among the Inept, Researchers Discover Ignorance Is Bliss
By Erica Goode
There are many incompetent people in the world. Dr. David A. Dunning is
haunted by the fear he might be one of them.
Dr. Dunning, a professor of psychology at Cornell, worries about this
because, according to his research, most incompetent people do not know
that they are incompetent.
On the contrary. People who do things badly, Dr. Dunning has found in
studies conducted with a graduate student, Justin Kruger, are usually
supremely confident of their abilities -- more confident, in fact, than
people who do things well.
Humor-impaired joke-tellers rated themselves as funny.
"I began to think that there were probably lots of things that I was bad
at and I didn't know it," Dr. Dunning said.
One reason that the ignorant also tend to be the blissfully self-assured,
the researchers believe, is that the skills required for competence often
are the same skills necessary to recognize competence.
The incompetent, therefore, suffer doubly, they suggested in a paper
appearing in the December issue of the Journal of Personality and Social
Psychology.
"Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate
choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it,"
wrote Dr. Kruger, now an assistant professor at the University of
Illinois, and Dr. Dunning.
This deficiency in "self-monitoring skills," the researchers said, helps
explain the tendency of the humor-impaired to persist in telling jokes
that are not funny, of day traders to repeatedly jump into the market --
and repeatedly lose out -- and of the politically clueless to continue
holding forth at dinner parties on the fine points of campaign strategy.
Some college students, Dr. Dunning said, evince a similar blindness: after
doing badly on a test, they spend hours in his office, explaining why the
answers he suggests for the test questions are wrong.
In a series of studies, Dr. Kruger and Dr. Dunning tested their theory of
incompetence. They found that subjects who scored in the lowest quartile
on tests of logic, English grammar and humor were also the most likely to
"grossly overestimate" how well they had performed.
In all three tests, subjects' ratings of their ability were positively
linked to their actual scores. But the lowest-ranked participants showed
much greater distortions in their self-estimates. Asked to evaluate their
performance on the test of logical reasoning, for example, subjects who
scored only in the 12th percentile guessed that they had scored in the
62nd percentile, and deemed their overall skill at logical reasoning to be
at the 68th percentile.
Similarly, subjects who scored at the 10th percentile on the grammar test
ranked themselves at the 67th percentile in the ability to "identify
grammatically correct standard English," and estimated their test scores
to be at the 61st percentile.
On the humor test, in which participants were asked to rate jokes
according to their funniness (subjects' ratings were matched against those
of an "expert" panel of professional comedians), low-scoring subjects were
also more apt to have an inflated perception of their skill. But because
humor is idiosyncratically defined, the researchers said, the results were
less conclusive.
Unlike their unskilled counterparts, the most able subjects in the study,
Dr. Kruger and Dr. Dunning found, were likely to underestimate their own
competence. The researchers attributed this to the fact that, in the
absence of information about how others were doing, highly competent
subjects assumed that others were performing as well as they were -- a
phenomenon psychologists term the "false consensus effect."
When high scoring subjects were asked to "grade" the grammar tests of
their peers, however, they quickly revised their evaluations of their own
performance. In contrast, the self-assessments of those who scored badly
themselves were unaffected by the experience of grading others; some
subjects even further inflated their estimates of their own abilities.
"Incompetent individuals were less able to recognize competence in
others," the researchers concluded.
In a final experiment, Dr. Dunning and Dr. Kruger set out to discover if
training would help modify the exaggerated self-perceptions of incapable
subjects. In fact, a short training session in logical reasoning did
improve the ability of low-scoring subjects to assess their performance
realistically, they found.
The findings, the psychologists said, support Thomas Jefferson's assertion
that "he who knows best knows how little he knows."
And the research meshes neatly with other work indicating that
overconfidence is a common; studies have found, for example, that the vast
majority of people rate themselves as "above average" on a wide array of
abilities -- though such an abundance of talent would be impossible in
statistical terms. And this overestimation, studies indicate, is more
likely for tasks that are difficult than for those that are easy.
Such studies are not without critics. Dr. David C. Funder, a psychology
professor at the University of California at Riverside, for example, said
he suspected that most lay people had only a vague idea of the meaning of
"average" in statistical terms.
"I'm not sure the average person thinks of 'average' or 'percentile' in
quite that literal a sense," Dr. Funder said, "so 'above average' might
mean to them 'pretty good,' or 'O.K.,' or 'doing all right.' And if, in
fact, people mean something subjective when they use the word, then it's
really hard to evaluate whether they're right or wrong using the
statistical criterion."
But Dr. Dunning said his current research and past studies indicated that
there were many reasons why people would tend to overestimate their
competency, and not be aware of it.
In some cases, Dr. Dunning pointed out, an awareness of one's own
inability is inevitable: "In a golf game, when your ball is heading into
the woods, you know you're incompetent," he said.
But in other situations, feedback is absent, or at least more ambiguous;
even a humorless joke, for example, is likely to be met with polite
laughter. And faced with incompetence, social norms prevent most people
from blurting out "You stink!" -- truthful though this assessment may be.
All of which inspired in Dr. Dunning and his co-author, in presenting
their research to the public, a certain degree of nervousness.
"This article may contain faulty logic, methodological errors or poor
communication," they cautioned in their journal report. "Let us assure our
readers that to the extent this article is imperfect, it is not a sin we
have committed knowingly."
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
avid_...@uymail.com
> I am not saying you are a bad leader or there is anything wrong with
> improvising. But surely you can see how we have no way of assessing
This goes back to the definition of improvisation. For the newbies
and clueless, improvisation/ad-libbing is doing whatever feels
right without understanding any of the guidelines or foundations
of what makes the subject matter work well. For the masters,
improvisation/ad-libbing is performing variations on tried-and-true
themes and mechanisms of the subject matter. In many cases,
the masters claiming to be improvising or trying things in fact
have much deeper understanding than the practitioners doing
things by the book.
The most obvious example of good improvisation is the "improv"
theatres or comedy clubs, where the actors or comedians who
appear so "natural" have often spent a lifetime perfecting that
easy-going image and spontaneous reaction.
JC Dill
>This goes back to the definition of improvisation. For the newbies
>and clueless, improvisation/ad-libbing is doing whatever feels
>right without understanding any of the guidelines or foundations
>of what makes the subject matter work well. For the masters,
>improvisation/ad-libbing is performing variations on tried-and-true
>themes and mechanisms of the subject matter.
Quote of the month!
JC Dill
>The most obvious example of good improvisation is the "improv"
>theatres or comedy clubs, where the actors or comedians who
>appear so "natural" have often spent a lifetime perfecting that
>easy-going image and spontaneous reaction.
An interesting comparison to dancing is that one of the principle
"rules" of improv theater is the "rule of agreement" - that the
characters must always agree to any suggestion or action proposed by
another character. Thus, the key skill to good improv theater is not
good leading, but good following.
Peter D
news:16966-451...@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
> Jack, we love self-taught doctors also.
Yup. And self-taught pilots and bus drivers. I love being on thh road with
self-taught drivers. Their "creativity" never ceases to amaze me -- why it
often makes me cuss! :-)
You see, Jack, feel free to be self-taught all you want, but
(a) Don't dare to consider yourself better than those who are taught. You're
not.
(b) Who are you to judge the value of another's dancing or quality of same
based on how they learned. Who died and made you Pope?
(c) Each time you speak you cause me to consider that those who see you as a
petulant egotist mayb e right. Pity.
Paul-Andre Panon
> Like I said before, there is no use in trying to be polite when no
> matter what you do or say you are still outcast. So, good luck dancing
> but I imagine some of you will have problems dancing with your head up
> your ass.
That's too bad, because this is the first time where you've posted
something that makes me believe you're likely to be at the skill level
that you claim. And I had to drag it out of you and got calumnied for
it. Whatever.
P-A
Paul-Andre Panon
>>matter if you play a trumpet like Dizzie Gillespie or with your cheeks
>>blown out like Sachmo;
>
> certainly self-taught.
Wups. My mistake. I had heard that Satchmo was a shortened nickname for
satchelmouth because he blew out his cheeks when he played trumpet and
cornet (see http://ask.yahoo.com/20021111.html and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Louis_Armstrong.jpg) but hadn't seen
Gillespie playing and didn't realize he did the same thing
(http://www.jazzandbluesmasters.com/dizzy.htm). I guess I should have
said Miles Davis instead, huh?
P-A
Paul-Andre Panon
Hmm. So I don't know. Perhaps what Jack is dealing with is a personality
and communication issue. Jack, when people ask you how you learned to
dance AT, you might want to reply with what I had to drag out of you in
your post (i.e. learning the traditional way, on the dance floor from
friends and relatives in BA) rather than just saying "self-taught". Who
knows, it might provide a jumping point for further conversation and
socializing rather than a point of contention?
Because if trying to elicit more information about your dance background
gets the type of response you've shown here, your state of being a
pariah is at least partially self-inflicted. While you may have reason
to be a little sensitive about your AT background (given the reception
you claim to have gotten from some people) you've got to realize that
some curiosity is bound to occur. Instead of glossing over it like
you've got something to hide, present it as the traditional way of
learning tango.
One thing I've learned is that there's some variation in connection in
AT. People who primarily do close-embrace expect a different connection
from those who primarily do open and vice-versa. I've gotten conflicting
advice from followers in the two camps. If a particular follower
requests a particular type of connection, it's better to listen to her
and try to accomodate her if you dance with her again than to get all
defensive about it. Or don't dance with that person again, it's a big
world. When you find a follower that can do the same with you and still
like the dance, use your personal style there.
In any dance community, there's going to be people who provide
unsolicited advice on or just off the dance floor. Some of them are
genuinely trying to help but some of them are doing it to boost their
own ego. Listen to it; if it makes sense and/or you trust the person's
skill then use it, otherwise ignore it. They shouldn't be teaching you
on the dance floor unless you've solicited their advice or what you are
doing is dangerous in some way.
P-A
Ed Jay
>Hitler danced Tango, he would have loved
>this group and visa-versa.
It didn't take long to invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is muerte.
Jack, you're such a...a...debutante! If not in Tango, then certainly in
people skills.
Ciao.
Gene E. Bloch
> Jack Jarmush scribed:
>
>>
>> Paul-Andre Panon wrote:
>>> It has recently been scientifically observed and reported that people
>>> who are poor at a some skills or field of knowledge often have a much
>>> higher opinion of their skill level than actually warranted.
>>
>> That is truly a stupid thing to say. you probably whent to university.
>> Most people that have formal education have a bloated sence of their
>> owm worth not the other way around.
>
> Did you mean 'sense' and 'own?' It's amazing what one can learn about
> spelling at the university level.
>
> Now, speaking of inappropriate bloat:
>>
> January 18, 2000 (New York Times et al)
> Among the Inept, Researchers Discover Ignorance Is Bliss
> By Erica Goode
[interesting article snipped]
I had known vaguely of this research - thanks for showing us the
detailed and informative report.
In another thread, in a newsgroup unrelated to dance, I am currently
seeing some quite egregious examples of this phenomenon at work, with
the usual ad-hominem reactions to the ones (including me, he says
modestly) who actually know something on the subject...
This has happened before to me and to others, of course. Maybe even
more than once :-)
--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
Gene E. Bloch
>
>> Hitler danced Tango, he would have loved
>> this group and visa-versa.
>
> It didn't take long to invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is muerte.
>
> Jack, you're such a...a...debutante! If not in Tango, then certainly in
> people skills.
>
> Ciao.
In a reply to an earlier post of yours, I mentioned the term "ad
hominem".
I see that Mr Jarmush ended up following - in spades - the pattern I
was talking about.
Ed Jay
>On 9/29/2006, Ed Jay posted this:
>> Jack Jarmush scribed:
>>
>>> Hitler danced Tango, he would have loved
>>> this group and visa-versa.
>>
>> It didn't take long to invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is muerte.
>>
>> Jack, you're such a...a...debutante! If not in Tango, then certainly in
>> people skills.
>>
>> Ciao.
>
>In a reply to an earlier post of yours, I mentioned the term "ad
>hominem".
>
>I see that Mr Jarmush ended up following - in spades - the pattern I
>was talking about.
Yup. I also think one of my favorite Confucius quotes fits well...
"When a man is wrong and won't admit it, he gets angry."
Gene E. Bloch
> You are angry...... this is really useless, you people are robots.
>
> I learned one useful thing on this thread ... how to communicate better
> on Usenet:
>
> FOAD !!!!
>
> ...END OF THREAD.
QED.
Larry Gantman
"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:t0rqh2dnqjid6c3m2...@4ax.com...
Related to that is this quote from Euripides: "Whom the G_ds destroy, they
first make mad."
Larry Gantman
Ed Jay
>On 9/29/2006, Jack Jarmush posted this:
>> You are angry...... this is really useless, you people are robots.
>>
>> I learned one useful thing on this thread ... how to communicate better
>> on Usenet:
>>
>> FOAD !!!!
>>
>> ...END OF THREAD.
>
>QED.
LOL. :-)
Ed Jay
"It is a wise man who seeks wisdom and a fool who believes he has it."
(I have no idea who first said this. I got it from Mario.)
JC Dill
wrote:
>You are angry
LOL. We got over being angry about trolls like you a long, LONG time
ago. Now we are just having fun, at your expense.
HAND
Ron N.
> Why do Tango dancers take themselves sooo seriously ? IMHO
> it's pretentious.
It's not just Argentine Tango dancers and it's not all AT dancers.
The same elitism charges have also been leveled against
certain WCS venues or communities previously in r.a.d.
A more interesting question is why some dance communities
become pretentious and others don't. Is it really part of the
art of Tango?
> One more question for you crazy Tango people;
There aren't very many crazy Tango people on r.a.d. Try the
Tango-L mailing list to find a much greater concentration.
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
Paul-Andre Panon
> Thank you all for participating in this social experiment, I have the
> predicted results. Now please continue stroking each others egos and
> attacking outsiders for being different. Be sure to vote, I'm sure
> you're mostly right wingers, continue to spread hate and negativity
> within your community and on the Internet.
Go back and read my posts from 2003, and you'll see I was anything but a
wight-winger.
> Stay scared, the boogie man
> is gonna getcha ! Stay in a group, it's safer, don't take chances,
> follow the rules, kick the week when there down, be paranoid,
> xenophobic, there is some strange people out there, not like you, you
> mustn't let them upset you way of life.
My explanation for conformism was more pitying than anything.
> Keep your mind closed, you
> never know what could fly in. Hitler danced Tango, he would have loved
> this group and visa-versa. something you can think about while you sit
> at your desk at your job that you hate that you got because of your
> higher education.
Actually while I dislike some aspects like the paperwork, I generally
love my job. I'm also generally regarded as being pretty broad-minded,
and while I try to use a healthy dose of skepticism, I'm probably too
gullible for my own good.
and Jack later added:
> You are angry...... this is really useless, you people are robots.
Oh, stop it, you're killing me with laughter! I haven't really been
angry since 1999. Actually what I felt, both for your "Jack" persona and
the troll you turned out to be, is really pity. At Jack's need for
emotional validation from complete strangers, and at you for not having
anything better to do with your life.
> I learned one useful thing on this thread ... how to communicate better
> on Usenet:
>
> FOAD !!!!
>
> ...END OF THREAD.
CSee ya later!
Ed Jay
>
>Ed Jay wrote:
>> Peter D scribed:
>>
>> >>Top-posted because today I'm pacifiying the people who don't like to scroll
>> >>and might be reading on a tiny, tiny screeen and have swollen thumbs from
>> >>reading the rest of the other thread. Tomorrow I'll pacify those who are
>> >>otherwise Usenet-challenge :-) >
>>
>> Because you think that traditional Usenet etiquette and practice is
>> something to be abandoned does not make those of us who adhere to the
>> standards 'challenged.' In my mind, those who don't adhere are the ones who
>> are challenged.
>> --
>> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
>
>you're first post on this thread was a petty defensive reaction......
No, read it again. It was an offensive challenge and a perfect example of
how you distort what you read to fit into your private errant world.
Think about it...you came to r.a.d. to solicit sympathy over your social
dilemma. Instead of sympathy, you received understanding and sage advice,
all of it punctuated with polite communication. You interpreted the kind
words people took time to write in your behalf as insults. Exactly the
opposite of how they were meant, just as you misinterpreted my first post as
being defensive.
It is conceivable to me from your behavior in this thread, that if one of
your dance partners offered you a suggestion, no matter how well-intended
and presented as it might be, you would take it as an insult and become
angry.
>who's the troll?
I don't think anyone in this thread has been trolling. I think that you came
here looking for sympathy and when you got suggestions instead, you took
them as insults, and you got angry. I suggest that instead of re-reading the
posts to find faults with which to attack their authors, you read them with
the view that they were offered as helpful suggestions.
I'm sure that after you've accepted the suggestions in the gracious manner
they were intended, you'll realize that you owe those you've insulted an
apology. Whether you're man enough to admit your error and apologize is yet
to be determined.
I suggest that you read the lengthy article I posted and take it to heart.
It appears to me that being self-taught followed by intermediate level
workshops has robbed you of training in the 'basics' of the dance you want
to do. Without knowledge of the 'basics,' your dancing will always be seen
by others as that of a beginning dancer. Nevertheless, in your view, you are
an intermediate- to advanced-level dancer. Who is correct -- you, or the
ladies who won't dance with you?
I don't mean to insult or offend you, but the picture I'm getting is that
you are a terrible Tango dancer because you never learned the basics, and
the improvisations to which you allude fly in the face of properly executed
Tango dancing. You are probably so bad that you stand out on a crowded dance
floor on those rare occasions when some unsuspecting lady agrees to dance
with you. Other women easily spot you as a poor dancer, so they refuse your
dance invitations.
I think it's great that you understand the music and have fun interpreting
it through your dancing. Imagine how much more fun it will be when you
understand the basics of the dance...and people dance with you.
There's an old saying: "Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong." How does it
apply in your situation?
Ron N.
> Who is correct -- you, or the ladies who won't dance with you?
>> good art.
In terms of finding partners who desire to dance with you, the
only thing that is important is their subjective view of how good
a dancer you are with them. You could be Mozart, but if they
subjectively prefer Britney (or Pugliese) instead, you are out of
luck.
Deciphering that subjective viewpoint and the technical skills
inherent in delivering that is part of learning the subculture
of a particular dance or art community.
If you don't like their viewpoint, most artists just move on
until they find their own audience. If you can find an admiring
audience, that says something (and if you never can, that
also says something).
JC Dill
wrote:
>Why not give me THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT that I do take advice,
Because, in this thread, you haven't done that. You have received a
LOT of very compasionate advice and you have responded to each and
eveyr post claiming it was rude or insulting or wrong for some other
reason.
I agree with Ed Jay's summary of the problem. No matter if it's
followers in Paris, or respondents in this thread, you treat each and
every response that doesn't agree with you as an insult. The common
problem here isn't the people posting on RAD or the followers in Paris
- the *common problem* to these situations is you. You ARE the
problem. You aren't as good a tango dancer as you think you are, and
you aren't as good of a communicator (how you write, how you listen)
as you think you are. Everytime you get feedback you disagree with,
you take it personally and refuse to listen to the gentle messages you
are being sent.
Get help! Learn to listen! Take lessons! Be more polite when you
disagree with someone! Stop refusing good advice!
Or continue to be unhappy that followers won't dance with you and that
you can't get the "advice you want" (which really isn't advice but
just agreement for your sorry state) here on RAD.
Ed Jay
>
>JC Dill wrote:
>
>> Get help! Learn to listen! Take lessons! Be more polite when you
>> disagree with someone! Stop refusing good advice!
>>
>> Or continue to be unhappy that followers won't dance with you and that
>> you can't get the "advice you want" (which really isn't advice but
>> just agreement for your sorry state) here on RAD.
>>
>>
>I realize that RAD is a group that I am not a member of that is why you
>are slamming me.
That you posted makes you a member of r.a.d. That you're a dancer makes you
a welcome participant r.a.d. Nobody is slamming you because you're an
'outsider.' In fact, Jack, nobody is slamming you.
>I don't think it's fair at all but when I think about it, I bet if any
>of us met without knowing each other we would get along.
Not if you respond to a "Hello" with, "Why are you saying hello to me? You
don't know me! You don't know me, therefore your 'hello' is an insult."
>The problem is MISUNDERSTANDINGS ON USENET.
No question that reading the words without seeing the author's facial
expressions is a disadvantage that can, and often does, lead to
misunderstandings.
>Look, I am not the bad person you claim I
>am and nothing you write will convince me.
I haven't seen a post where anyone has claimed that you're a bad person. If
beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so must be ugly!
> If you don't want to give me
>the benefit of the doubt that's fine, it don't matter anyway.
You have been given the benefit of doubt. Everyone here has responded kindly
to you, despite being met with your many insults.
>The fact
>is this thread is long dead but one of you always has to have the last
>insulting word. I will hold back from saying anything provoking in this
>message and let's see if it is the last.
>
>compassion
avid_...@uymail.com
> I realize that RAD is a group that I am not a member of that is why you
> are slamming me.
You should realize that on Usenet, in almost all newsgroups,
people get slammed and there is a lot of bickering, regardless
of whether people are regulars or not. Posters learn to be
exceedingly thick-skinned, or they stop posting.
And if you look back at the responses to your posts, when
you are more "removed" from the emotions of the moment,
then you'd probably come to realize that the comments are
actually rather mild compared to the flame wars that sprout
up quite often.
> I don't think it's fair at all but when I think about it, I bet if any
> of us met without knowing each other we would get along. The problem is
> MISUNDERSTANDINGS ON USENET. Look, I am not the bad person you claim I
If you read some of the old RAD posts, you'd find that a lot
of the posters flaming each other, who apppear to be on the
verge of shooting each other, are actually decent "friends."
The decorum and cordiality in personal face-to-face exchanges
are _very_ different from that in impersonal behind-the-keyboard
confrontations.
In the same vein, you should realize that dance-hall dynamics
are very different from real-life interactions. The dancers who
(seemingly) reject or berate you may very well be exceedingly
nice people, who are putting up fronts or are just not good at
dealing with strangers. Or they could be really bad people.
> am and nothing you write will convince me. If you don't want to give me
> the benefit of the doubt that's fine, it don't matter anyway. The fact
> is this thread is long dead but one of you always has to have the last
> insulting word. I will hold back from saying anything provoking in this
> message and let's see if it is the last.
Nobody needs to give you the benefit of the doubt because
this is a forum of information exchange, not personal
counselling. Posters call it as they see it, whether it's
reality or not. Readers choose to accept or reject the
input as appropriate.
Ed Jay
>... Oh and one more thing... Ed, I looked up Godwins Law and found it
>very interesting, I fell into it clearly.
:-)
Peter D
If it was a social experiment then f#ck you for wasting my time and the time
of others in your deceit.
If it is just a way for you to save face and feel superior, then f#ck you
for being such a jerk. I foreceast that even non-Parisians will learn to
quickly treat you with the approriate level of contempt. That means no
matter where you go, you'll soon be considered a parasite and a jerk. Pity.
> I learned something from you fools, now did any of you clowns learn
> anything here, or do you already know everything?
Yeah, I learned not to pity the whiner and that even stuck-up Parisians will
sometimes treat someone appropriately.
Now FOAD.
Oh, and HAND. :-)
Peter D
news:1159647709....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> JC Dill wrote:
>> Get help! Learn to listen! Take lessons! Be more polite when you
>> disagree with someone! Stop refusing good advice!
>>
>> Or continue to be unhappy that followers won't dance with you and that
>> you can't get the "advice you want" (which really isn't advice but
>> just agreement for your sorry state) here on RAD.
> I realize that RAD is a group that I am not a member of that is why you
> are slamming me.
Wh are you to judge the whole group and to claim to knwo what each and all
is thinking? You haven't been here for what a week? And who are you to
decide that their is some collective conspiracy to "slam" you? Did it ever
occure to you that poeple may act thusly because yyou act thusly?
> Look, I am not the bad person you claim I am and nothing you write will
> convince me.
One thing that you definitley miss is that people are often referring to
your _behaviour_ and _communication_ (or lack thereof) style. You read an
attack on your person. So "potentially bad behavious seen thus far" becomes
"bad me". That's not so. But I doubt you get it.
/cue another hissy-fit!
> one of you always has to have the last insulting word. I will hold back
> from saying anything provoking in this message and let's see if it is the
> last.
Hey, lead by example, Jack. Show how big a man you are and shut up already.
Or not.