Help Please: History, Origins of West Coast Swing
Peter D
origins of musical influences and the development of the dance, steps, etc.
From discussions here and personal observation I'm aware that there are two
distinct camps -- "ballroom studio" and what I call "classic/authentic" (ala
Skippy Blair) WCS. I know that some would consider that too much of a
distinctionand others would point out variations on both, but it's the best
I can come up with right now. :-)
OK, to the History part. I came across this on a site and want to check its
accuracy:
"West Coast Swing originated from an earlier dance known as the 'Savoy
Style' Lindy, which was done at the Savoy Ballroom in New York in the early
1930's. Although WCS was not invented by [him] it was indirectly spawned by
a man whose name was Dean Collins, who also danced at the Savoy while living
in New York.
"Collins came to California in the 1930's to get into the movie business and
brought with him 'his version' of the 'Savoy Style Lindy'. Collins, after
dancing in Hollywood for a couple years and dancing in many night clubs
began dancing and competing. He would get to know some of the other local
dancers, which have been said too have "not seen that style of swing before,
but they liked it very much." It was alot different than what they were
doing at the time (a Houston whip style of swing.)
"When Collins started winning contests everyone wanted to learn his style.
Dean's partner Jewel McGowen was the hottest female swing dancer who had
ever "Switched" (swivel back and forth) with Dean. They made many movies
apart as well as together. When Dean would be asked what style of swing he
was doing he would say "there is no style, there is only Swing." He never
said there is only Lindy Hop or West Coast or Jitterbug, etc., NEVER!, there
is only swing. And being a true master of swing realized that "Swing is
Swing"... period!
"Collins started teaching "his version" to L.A. and soon everyone on the
West Coast was doing it. Dean finally got his break and started doing many
Hollywood movies in the 1940s and 1950s. He brought many local swing dancers
who he had taught this "new style" with him into these movies as well.
During this time, the movies billed this dance as "Jitterbug or Rock and
Roll." Many soldiers danced this version of swing in WW II. The soldiers and
U.S.O. took "West Coast Swing" AND OTHER FORMS OF SWING all over the world
... disguised as the newer term of Jitterbug or Rock and Roll (before these
titles swing was known as the Lindy Hop). Dean past away in the mid 1980's.
True? I'd especially like to hear from anyone who was there at the time, or
those who know those who were there at the time and have heard from them
that this is or isn't true.
Ed Jay
You seem to have scoured Sonny Watson's website
<http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm> for your information.
Sonny's site is considered by most to be the authority on the history of
WCS, so I'd suggest that you continue to scour it.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
dav...@aol.com
Ed:
You beat me to the punch:) So I can only second the recommendation
for Sonny's site as the best source of WCS history on the 'net.
David Koppelman
Peter D
news:usm5h2lu8946mh76r...@4ax.com...
> Peter D scribed:
>
>>I'm writing an article on WCS and want to lay a foundation of history and
>>origins of musical influences and the development of the dance, steps,
>>etc.
>>From discussions here and personal observation I'm aware that there are
>>two
>>distinct camps -- "ballroom studio" and what I call "classic/authentic"
>>(ala
>>Skippy Blair) WCS. I know that some would consider that too much of a
>>distinctionand others would point out variations on both, but it's the
>>best
>>I can come up with right now. :-)
>>
>>OK, to the History part. I came across this on a site and want to check
>>its
>>accuracy:
>>
>>"West Coast Swing originated from an earlier dance known as the 'Savoy
>>Style' Lindy, which was done at the Savoy Ballroom in New York in the
>>early
>>1930's. Although WCS was not invented by [him] it was indirectly spawned
>>by
>>a man whose name was Dean Collins, who also danced at the Savoy while
>>living
>>in New York.
> You seem to have scoured Sonny Watson's website
> <http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm> for your information.
> Sonny's site is considered by most to be the authority on the history of
> WCS, so I'd suggest that you continue to scour it.
Yes, that was it (I closed the window before I could copy the link but knew
I had it in my History). It seems to be very thorough and detialed. Can I
consider everything on it to be accurate?
Ed Jay
There are some who argue about some of the history, but as one who has
spoken with people who were part of the scene in the late 40's and early
50's, I have no difficulty accepting the accuracy of Sonny's site.
JeffM
>I'm writing an article on WCS[...]
>
>"[...]Although WCS was not invented by [him]
>it was indirectly spawned by a man whose name was Dean Collins[...]"
>
An interesting(?) thread (once you get past the flamebait)
which I stumbled across recently adds a bit of context:
http://www.google.com/search?q=the-L-A-whip+Dean-Collins+New-Jersey+Dean
http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=552948&sid=b9e1e777cb53a033f4cc977f3bb8726d
christin...@hotmail.com
Peter D wrote:
> True? I'd especially like to hear from anyone who was there at the time, or
> those who know those who were there at the time and have heard from them
> that this is or isn't true.
Hi Peter.
I am might be able to put you in touch with a few people who are
friends with many of the "old-time" swing dancers in the LA area. Some
of them are over 90 years old and they still gather regularly to dance.
They were competing and appearing in movies back as far back as the
30's and 40's in Hollywood. These days they are more part of the Lindy
Hop (often called Hollywood-style Lindy, Dean Collins-style or
smooth-style Lindy) scene than the West Coast Swing scene.
Email me privately if you want more information.
Christine Elowitt
dance...@earthlink.net
Peter D wrote:
>
> OK, to the History part. I came across this on a site and want to check its
> accuracy:
>
Please be sure to give credit to the reference you draw your
information from, otherwise you're plagurizing.
Chris Brown
Camarillo, CA
Coqui
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kpl5/Link15_wcs.html
There are a number of historical articles on the Internet that mostly just
copy what someone else wrote. It would be great if you could do some
interviews of your own and perhaps contribute some new information, insights
or opinions.
C
"Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote in message
news:nJAQg.3928$FA4....@newsfe21.lga...
Ed Jay
>
>Peter D wrote:
>>
>> OK, to the History part. I came across this on a site and want to check its
>> accuracy:
>>
>
>Please be sure to give credit to the reference you draw your
>information from, otherwise you're plagurizing.
>
I'm sure that's been said before! (And, it's plagiarizing.)
Peter D
news:1158881983.9...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Peter D wrote:
>>
>> OK, to the History part. I came across this on a site and want to check
>> its
>> accuracy:
>>
>
> Please be sure to give credit to the reference you draw your
> information from, otherwise you're plagurizing.
Thank you for reminding me. Had I forgotten, I'd now be sure to do so. Of
course, I always quote and attribute anyway.
Oh, and there's no "u".
Richard Maurer
There are a number of historical articles
on the Internet that mostly just copy
what someone else wrote. It would be great
if you could do some interviews of your own
and perhaps contribute some new information,
insights or opinions.
Chris Brown wrote:
Please be sure to give credit to the reference
you draw your information from, otherwise
you're plagurizing.
Yeah, but who copied from whom?
Sonny's www.streetswing.com seems to have copied
the history of many dances from other places,
and there are no references or links. Even if he
wrote the West Coast Swing article himself,
it looks like some parts of it were copied or
paraphrased from somewhere else, without any attributions.
Still a good collection though.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Icono Clast
> Can I consider everything [at streetswing.com] to be accurate?
No. But you may consider it to be more accurate than any other
source. I've seen things at Sonny's site that might be questionable
but I don't know enough to challenge his content.
I learned the dance in '53 believing, at that time, it was nine years
old 'cause that's what we were told. Other than the Whip, the basics
remain unchanged although the teaching of them has improved immensely
thanks to people such as Skippy, Debbie, Sonny, and some others.
Jack Carey tells of his dancing being shot by rather immobile
television cameras and being directed to dance in a way that we now
call a slot.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Peter D
news:4513c46e$0$19694$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> Peter D wrote:
>> Can I consider everything [at streetswing.com] to be accurate?
>
> No. But you may consider it to be more accurate than any other source.
> I've seen things at Sonny's site that might be questionable but I don't
> know enough to challenge his content.
Could you be specific? Things like, "the site says, "'this' but I have
always heard 'that'." or "this perosn recalls it this way not that way." or
"I have seen that movie clip and it isn't shown as reported." Thanks.
dance...@earthlink.net
Ed Jay wrote:
> dance...@earthlink.net scribed:
> >information from, otherwise you're plagurizing.
> >
> I'm sure that's been said before! (And, it's plagiarizing.)
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
Thanks for the spell check Ed and Peter.
Ed Jay
pcco...@gmail.com
www.caljazzdance.com
Home the Dean Collins Collection, and many other Dancers collections.
Many of the the originators of west coast swing were good friends of
mine and it would be nice to include these dancers when writing about
the history.
I just wrote a short article on Dean Collins Whip on the site.
peace...Peter Loggins
pcco...@gmail.com
History...I the best part is all the words they put in Deans Mouth!!!
lol....peace, Peter Loggins
Icono Clast
> "Icono Clast" wrote:
>> I learned the dance in '53 believing, at that time, it was
>> told.
>>
>>> Can I consider everything [at streetswing.com] to be accurate?
>>>
>> No. But you may consider it to be more accurate than any other
>> source. I've seen things at Sonny's site that might be
>> questionable but I don't know enough to challenge his content.
>
> Could you be specific? Things like, "the site says, "'this' but I
> have always heard 'that'." or "this perosn recalls it this way
> not that way." or "I have seen that movie clip and it isn't shown
> as reported." Thanks.
No, I cannot be more specific because I didn't make notes on things
that I questioned as I perused the site. I remember none being either
significant enough to query or my confidence in what I thought I knew
being adequate to challenge his information. One I remember, though,
is the creation date of Western Swing: In '53 we were told 1946. If I
remember correctly, Sonny's site says it was created earlier, the
dance itself, not just some of its elements that go way back.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
Peter D
news:1158970672.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> This story is very Incorrect...espeically anything that has to do with
> History...I the best part is all the words they put in Deans Mouth!!!
Could you be more specific? Can you tell me which parts are "Incorrect" and
why? I can't just blindly accept your view of the site without some sort of
facts to support it. If you know the errors, please state them so they can
be sorted out. It'll help anyone else interested as well. You can't
reasonably expect people to just go, "Oh, OK. I'ts all wrong 'cos someone
I've never heard of just said so.: :-)
For example:
Did Dean Collins bring what was known as (or became known as) "Savoy Style
Swing" to LA?
Was his partner (competion dancing? social dancing? both?) Jewel McGowen?
Did they make many movies -- both separately and together?
Did Dean actually say, ""there is no style, there is only Swing"or something
similar -- that is, is it an actual direct quote or a paraphrase?
Dancer
JeffM
>>>I've seen things at Sonny's site that might be questionable
Peter D wrote:
>>Could you be specific?
.
Icono Clast wrote:
>[...]One I remember, though, is the creation date of Western Swing:
>In '53 we were told 1946. If I remember correctly,
>Sonny's site says it was created earlier,
>the dance itself, not just some of its elements that go way back.
It seems logical to say that (like most dances) it evolved.
The slot would seem to be an invention of Hollywod
with dancers being told to orient themselves for camera angles.
The smaller venues west of the Mississippi
would seem to have compounded its adoption rate in social dancing.
When the dance got NAMED might be considered a separate issue.
Peter D
news:1159048132.7...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> It seems logical to say that (like most dances) it evolved.
My thoughts as well. I thnk all dances evolve. That is, they do not just
spring up overnight. The 50s thru 70s saw the evolution of many dance styles
that contined new elements or new ways of interpreting new styles and
rhythms but on close examination have their roots in other dances. The only
exception I can think of is choreographed dances, but even they are based on
simple/basic rhythms common to existing dance forms.
> The slot would seem to be an invention of Hollywod
> with dancers being told to orient themselves for camera angles.
> The smaller venues west of the Mississippi
> would seem to have compounded its adoption rate in social dancing.
This was an interesting 'revelation' to me. I had always been told that the
"slot" -- which I consider a major obvious distinction between WCS and
ECS -- came into existence because of the need to pack more dancers on a
dance floor. I had not heard of the Hollywood camera angle explanation --
which also makes sense. I wonder if anyone can provide solid evidence for
which came first, for how and when the "slot" came into existence?
Peter D
news:1159048132.7...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> When the dance got NAMED might be considered a separate issue.
I would like to know when and where the term "West Coast Swing" was first
used. I had always heard it was because it was first popularised in
California (where it became the official state dance), being a "West Coast"
variation of the circular dance style popularised on the East Coast and so
the two different dance styles were distinguished as "East Coast" and "West
Coast" Swing. That would make WCS a derivative of ECS. But some articles
I've read say that is not so, that WCS evolved directly and not from ECS, or
even that what we now call ECS was derived from WCS. Then there is "Western
Swing" which I don't know a whole lot about. It's all very interesting. :-)
Craig R. Hutchinson
You can check out my unique history published in my Swing Dancer manual at
http://users.erols.com/crhutch/sa.html and
http://users.erols.com/crhutch/toowcs.html
Hope all is well
Enjoy Your Good Premises!
Craig
http://users.erols.com/crhutch/
"Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote in message
news:MKsRg.6910$FA4....@newsfe21.lga...
Ed Jay
>Hi
>
>You can check out my unique history published in my Swing Dancer manual at
>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/sa.html and
>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/toowcs.html
>
>Hope all is well
>
How do you folks in Texas, Tulsa, St. Louis and Myrtle Beach feel about this
statement lifted from Craig's history:
"West Coast Swing is called West Coast Swing in California, Push in Dallas,
Whip in Houston, Supreme Swing in Tulsa, Imperial Swing in St Louis,
Alcatraz in New Orleans, Carolina Shag in the Carolinas, Savoy Swing in New
York city and DC Swing in Washington DC."
Peter D
news:k0uRg.1182$eZ4.809@dukeread06...
> You can check out my unique history published in my Swing Dancer manual at
> http://users.erols.com/crhutch/sa.html and
> http://users.erols.com/crhutch/toowcs.html
I thought I'd let you know that the links under "HISTORICAL SWING FILMS" end
up as dead pages (403).
Disco-Step-by-Step
Historic Films (Swing Included)
Bob Wheatley
It seems to me that they all must share some common ancestry. But they have
all evolved to a point that I don't think it's accurate to say they are the
same dances with different names.
Bob Wheatley
JeffM
>>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/sa.html and
>>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/toowcs.html
Peter D wrote:
>I thought I'd let you know that the links under
>"HISTORICAL SWING FILMS" end up as dead pages (403).
403 is *Forbidden*.
It means you aren't allowed to access that page by clicking a link
--except within privileged domains.
404 is the *Page does not exist* indicator.
>Historic Films (Swing Included)
>
...and yup, that page has been dead (404) for over a year
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.historicfilms.com/index2.html
>Disco-Step-by-Step
>
I get an error 500 (Bad hostname)
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.discostepbystep.com/
so not only is the page down, the server doesn't exist any more.
Peter D
> >Craig R. Hutchinson wrote:
>>>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/sa.html and
>>>http://users.erols.com/crhutch/toowcs.html
> .
> Peter D wrote:
>>I thought I'd let you know that the links under
>>"HISTORICAL SWING FILMS" end up as dead pages (403).
Yeah, quite. 404. My bad. Wet noodle time yet again. <sigh>
Icono Clast
>> The slot would seem to be an invention of Hollywod with dancers
>> being told to orient themselves for camera angles. The smaller
>> venues west of the Mississippi would seem to have compounded its
>> adoption rate in social dancing.
>
> This was an interesting 'revelation' to me. I had always been told
> that the "slot" -- which I consider a major obvious distinction
> between WCS and ECS -- came into existence because of the need to
> pack more dancers on a dance floor.
I believed that, too.
> I had not heard of the Hollywood camera angle explanation --
Being in Hollywood is incidental to the immobility of the early
television cameras. Jack Carey told me (and no doubt countless
others) of being directed to dance perpendicular to the camera.
> which also makes sense. I wonder if anyone can provide solid
> evidence for which came first, for how and when the "slot" came
> into existence?
I can't. But my guess is there's truth in each.
Craig R. Hutchinson.
Good t'see you, Hutch. Are you well?
Peter D said:
>> Then there is "Western Swing" which I don't know a whole lot
>> about.
There are many musics that have the same names as dances. You can
rattle off a few in an instant. Western Swing was Big Band cowboy
music particularly well presented by Bob Wills.
Western Swing is the initial name for West Coast Swing even though
most Western Swing music was/is not suitable for the dance. I learned
it as Western Swing, as I believe I said in a previous post in this
thread, even though there is evidence that Mrs. Arthur Murray(?) had
renamed it some time before. I never heard of West Coast Swing 'til I
resumed dancing in '84 or so (I still have great trouble saying it
but can force m'se'f t'write it). Even a bar in Colorado Springs was
calling it Western Swing in the late '60s.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Un San Francisqueño quien nunca dice ¡No! a una invitación a bailar.
Mike Corbett
I find it in conflict with his other webpage that is actually pretty
accurate but lacks detail. If the above statement began with the
words, "Other slotted forms of swing dancing are called...." it would
be pretty accurate but each of the listed dances branched off the
trunk of the swing tree separately. WCS and the others listed deserve
their own branches in the family tree, IMO.
Notice below where Craig indicates each is a style of swing dancing,
NOT a style of WCS.
=======================================================
Additional factoids!
Savoy Swing A style of Swing popular in the New York Savoy Ballroom in
the 30s and 40s originally danced to Swing music.
West Coast Swing A style of Swing emphasizing nimble feet popular in
California night clubs in the 30s and 40s and voted the California
State Dance in 1989.
Whip A style of Swing popular in Houston, TX emphasizing moves
spinning the follower between dance positions with a wave rhythm
break.
Push A style of Swing popular in Dallas, TX emphasizing moves spinning
the follower between dance positions with a rock rhythm break.
Supreme Swing A style of Swing popular in Tulsa, OK.
Imperial Swing A style of Swing popular in St Louis, MO.
Carolina Shag A style of Swing popular in the Carolinas (the South
Carolina State Dance) emphasizing the leader's nimble feet.
DC Hand Dancing A Washington, DC synthesis of Lindy and Swing.
East Coast Swing A style of Lindy popular in the ballroom dance school
organizations.
Ballroom West Coast Swing A style of Swing popular in the ballroom
dance school organizations and different from the style performed in
the California night clubs and Swing dance clubs.
Country-Western Swing A style of Jitterbug danced to Country-Western
music in Country-Western bars and popularized in the 80s.
Cajun Swing A Louisiana Bayou style of Lindy danced to Cajun music.
Pony Swing A Country-Western style of Cajun Swing.
===================================================
christin...@hotmail.com
> "Collins started teaching "his version" to L.A. and soon everyone on the
> West Coast was doing it. Dean finally got his break and started doing many
> Hollywood movies in the 1940s and 1950s. He brought many local swing dancers
> who he had taught this "new style" with him into these movies as well.
> During this time, the movies billed this dance as "Jitterbug or Rock and
> Roll." Many soldiers danced this version of swing in WW II. The soldiers and
> U.S.O. took "West Coast Swing" AND OTHER FORMS OF SWING all over the world
> ... disguised as the newer term of Jitterbug or Rock and Roll (before these
> titles swing was known as the Lindy Hop). Dean past away in the mid 1980's.
>
> True? I'd especially like to hear from anyone who was there at the time, or
> those who know those who were there at the time and have heard from them
> that this is or isn't true.
OK, I am going to offer one more time. There is a group of dancers in
LA and Orange County, CA that include "old-timers," some of whom have
been dancing since the 40's. Some of them knew Dean Collins, won big
contests in the 40's and danced in the movies. One of them is about 90
years old and a crowd comes out every year to celebrate his birthday.
They still get together on Sundays and dance. I know people who attend
these functions and can put you in touch with some of them if you want
to get their personal perspectives on the history of Swing dancing and
some clues as to when they feel the term "West Coast Swing" came into
being and where the dance came from. One of my friends from this group
taught Sonny Watson some of his early dance lessons, so her information
would probably fit in nicely with what you got from Sonny's website.
Here is my understanding of the history. Most of it has been picked up
from others since I started Lindy dancing, so I can't guarantee its
veracity. (The Lindy dancers are generally more interested in the
history and old video footage of swing than WCS dancers.) The dance
that Dean Collins did is known these days as "Hollywood-style" or
"Smooth-style" Lindy Hop. The styling is the main difference between
Savoy-style and Hollywood-style, and there is still a little bit of a
rivalry - especially amongst the new generation of Lindy dancers.
West Coast Swing is believed to have evolved from the Hollywood style
of Lindy and some of the moves remain very similar in their basic
footwork and timing. Of course, what we currently call West Coast Swing
continues to evolve and change and has added many new moves, and is
done to different music with different posture and styling than the
Hollywood style Lindy. Hollywood-style Lindy, while slotted, still has
a much rounder feeling than the back and forth of West Coast Swing, and
utilizes swivels rather than anchor steps.
I also think that Jack Carey, Annie Hirsch, and Sylvia Sykes could all
be very good sources of information on this topic. In fact, I believe
that Jack and Sylvia will be doing a seminar on the history of swing at
Boogie by the Bay.
Good luck with your project.
Christine Elowitt
P.S. Idea for other challenging projects: define the differences
between East Coast Swing, Lindy Hop and Jitterbug and how those terms
are used differently in different parts of the country. Or how about
one on how St. Louis Shag, Collegiate Shag and Carolina Shag all got
the name "Shag" despite being very different.
Peter D
exiting the ng before I noticed it. Feel free to contact me (peter <you know
what goes here> pd <period> ca --that's ca, not com. Any help is
appreciated.
no idea what to edit out so I top-posted :-)
<christin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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