So You Think You Can Dance
Sasquatch
Swing routine done tonight on the show. I understand that there is a
West Coast Swing in ballroom, but it was even a bad version of that. I
do not feel that ttonight's performance looked anything like what we do
every weekend. I feel that this is not good for our sport. I know that
I will have students coming to me next weekend asking if what was on tv
is what I am always encouraging them to learn. And I will have to
explain that what Benji and Heidi do at the end of every show is the
best West Coast that they will see on the show and that what they saw
tonight was not "what I call" West Coast.
Is anyone else upset about the fact that tonight's West Coast swing
performance was so bad and yet no one seemed to care? Or am I
over-reacting?
Just wondering,
Stevie
shiden_kai
"Sasquatch" wrote
No, I thought it was pathetic....but the blame has to be placed on
the choreographer. As far as no one caring, if you are talking about
the tv audience....they probably have no clue what they are looking at,
other then the WCS dancers who manage to make it to the taping.
Ian
dav...@aol.com
I have the most profound respect for Ron Montez; he is one of the truly
great latin dancers and instructors in the world. His salsa
coreography tonight was terrific, and the couple came out looking like
contemporary salsa dancers.
But Ron is not the right coach to provide a couple if you want them to
come out looking like WCS dancers circa 2006. The result was what I
feared when I heard he was doing the WCS choreography. And just as
obviously, none of the three judges really know what contemporary wcs
is supposed to look like either.
Ah well. Maybe Benji and/or Heidi will get to show America what the
dance is supposed to look like.
David Koppelman
Doug Silton
out loud!
What I don't understand is why they didn't have Kyle & Sarah, Jordan &
Tat, or Parker & Jessica doing the choreography.
Next week they'll probably have Lindy Hop looking like Ballroom Jive!
Doug
isadanc...@gmail.com
this show in Southern California - a conglomerated mecca of amazing WCS
pros who would have been more than happy to jump at the chance to give
the world a taste of their dance?
My eyes are aching and my stomach is churning.
They must have known... but why would they make such a gross mistake?
Did they even attempt to bring in K/S, J/T, or P/J?
I feel bad tearing Ron apart, but he is way outside his element. I
agree with David and have respect for him when he is in his realm. But
outside his realm his respect is not earned.
Ouch for Ivan and Allison -- It isn't their fault they were given that
style of WCS, but they looked so flouncy and posed.... *cringe*
-=E
_________________________
isadanceaholic.blogspot.com
_________________________
Leah Flores
"Sasquatch" <ocar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152156682.8...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Would your reaction have been..."What the Hxxx is that?" If so, then we had
the same reaction! No, it's not a good representation of our sport, however
I guess even bad exposure is better than none at all. We'll just have to
tell people who ask (I don't teach, but a lot of people know what I do for
fun) that what they saw was really more like a bad fusion of Lindy and
WCS...IOW, ask them to ignore what they saw!!!
Not sure about the other two, but I think Mary Murphy knew the difference,
especially since she was at SwingDiego this year. Think about it this way,
though: wouldn't it be really bad form to say something negative about their
own choreographer/judge? So, the judges were politically correct and
critiqued the dancing, not the dance style.
Leah Flores
Mike Corbett
I have a different viewpoint. Of course, the choreography and dancing
were NOT what West Coast Swing in our world is like. However, a very
small number of people who watched, know that. To LOOK like what we
do requires a significant amount of technique that can't really be
faked.
Secondly, not to take anything away from any of the fine WCS dancers
suggested as choreographers but I can only think of three from our
world that would have "choreography" credentials anywhere near on a
par with the other choreographers on the show and I'm not at all
certain any of them could have produced authentic looking WCS in a
week with those dancers. Of course I would have loved to see them
try. :-)
I'm thinking of Mario Robau, Jr., Robert Royston and Michael Keihm,
not necessarily in that order. Perhaps Buddy could have pulled it off
but that would have been totally out of the question.
Mike Corbett
avid_...@uymail.com
> No, I thought it was pathetic....but the blame has to be placed on
> the choreographer. As far as no one caring, if you are talking about
> the tv audience....they probably have no clue what they are looking at,
> other then the WCS dancers who manage to make it to the taping.
What exactly made it pathetic? I bet few if any of the whiners
here could dance anything close to what the two kids did,
especially with the few days of training and practice they had.
It's ridiculous comparing their dancing to that done by dancers
with many years of doing the same old thing. This is true of
WCS as of any other style/dance.
Ivan and Allison were quite entertaining, the only real criteria
for this kind of "competition." Ivan did quite well on this one,
improving a lot from weeks ago. I have the general impression
that the overall dancing this season is better than that of last
season, with the dancers showing far more versatility.
The judging is haphazard, as sometimes the judges nitpick
on some nebulous notion of technique and sometimes they
simply focus on presentation and chemistry. Sometimes
they give a lot of leeway on potential verses actual and
sometimes they are harsh on silly issues. I feel sorry for
the dancers, as there's no consistent direction for
imporovement. But, then, this is true of most "competitions"
where the judging is so highly subjective.
Bob Wheatley
news:1152178179.9...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> shiden_kai wrote:
>
>> No, I thought it was pathetic....but the blame has to be placed on
>> the choreographer. As far as no one caring, if you are talking about
>> the tv audience....they probably have no clue what they are looking at,
>> other then the WCS dancers who manage to make it to the taping.
>
> What exactly made it pathetic? >
It simply wasn't representative of the dance. From head to toe.
Could they have been leaning any farther back away from the connection? (
The old style "V" )
And how many swivels can you put in one routine?
> I bet few if any of the whiners
> here could dance anything close to what the two kids did,
> especially with the few days of training and practice they had.
> It's ridiculous comparing their dancing to that done by dancers
> with many years of doing the same old thing. This is true of
> WCS as of any other style/dance.
>
While I understand your point, I wouldn't make that bet.
Any rank beginner with any basic dance skills that had been prepared by any
WC coach would have been better.
For me, they didn't even make the grade for "doing the dance".
> Ivan and Allison were quite entertaining, the only real criteria
> for this kind of "competition." Ivan did quite well on this one,
> improving a lot from weeks ago. I have the general impression
> that the overall dancing this season is better than that of last
> season, with the dancers showing far more versatility.
>
I agree, on all those counts. I love Allison's dancing in particular and if
I set aside my WC perspectives they did okay.
The talent seems so much more even this year that it makes it difficult to
predict who may win it all. At this point there's two or three girls and two
three boys that it could end up being any one of them. While I know much of
RAD (including me) is pulling for Benji & Heidi, we have to remember that
ultimately it will be solos that win the contest.
That's a disadvantage for un-coupled couples dancers.
> The judging is haphazard, as sometimes the judges nitpick
> on some nebulous notion of technique and sometimes they
> simply focus on presentation and chemistry. Sometimes
> they give a lot of leeway on potential verses actual and
> sometimes they are harsh on silly issues. I feel sorry for
> the dancers, as there's no consistent direction for
> imporovement. But, then, this is true of most "competitions"
> where the judging is so highly subjective.
>
Agreed again. I can never tell where the hell they are coming from.
They compliment one couple about an element and when the next couple appears
to have that element in spades they then proceed to criticize them for
another element. They're all over the place.
Bob Wheatley
soundin...@yahoo.com
> Secondly, not to take anything away from any of the fine WCS dancers
> suggested as choreographers but I can only think of three from our
> world that would have "choreography" credentials anywhere near on a
> par with the other choreographers on the show and I'm not at all
> certain any of them could have produced authentic looking WCS in a
> week with those dancers. Of course I would have loved to see them
> try. :-)
>
> I'm thinking of Mario Robau, Jr., Robert Royston and Michael Keihm,
> not necessarily in that order. Perhaps Buddy could have pulled it off
> but that would have been totally out of the question.
I'd add Maria Torres and Angel Figueroa to your list - but the point is
made...it takes more than being a top competitor to have the bredth and
depth of experience to choreograph and judge a show like this.
--Stan Graves
Ed Jay
The show is in LA? Robert and Deborah!
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
avid_...@uymail.com
> It simply wasn't representative of the dance. From head to toe.
Let's get real. How many of the sample dances are really
representative of the dances? And is it even important?
I've yet to see one Smooth dance with any quality of drift.
The widely acclaimed Foxtrot last week (choreographed by
Mary the ballroom "specialist") was more like snappy Latin
dancing than elegant/graceful Smooth dancing. But then,
it takes years to develop the skill/ability to drift with
effortless body flight, and the audience couldn't care
less, probably considering the slow movement boring.
The Musa+Natalie Hustle had no basic element at all,
full of theatrics (some not difficult) that have little to do with
Hustle. But the choreographer knew to use Musa's
strength of being able to do partner lifts to hide his lack
of musicality or agility (mostly foot strength/articulation).
Nigel mentioned as much that he dances by "feel" but
doesn't have grasp of timing. OTOH, Musa did great in
the "tribal" dance the other week.
The Martha+Travis Salsa was overly sharp, as Nigel
points out, because Ron Montez basically taught them
Mambo. The music was Mambo and didn't have the
smoothness of Salsa music. In general, with less than
1 week of training/practice, most of any blame goes
to the coaches/choreographers and not the dancers,
who can't be expected to understand the basics of
the dances.
One has to wonder when Dan the hip-hop judge
criticizes Jessica+Jaymes on lack of hip-hop technique,
whether he was knocking the dancers or Shane the
hip-hop coach/choreographer.
As for Allison+Ivan's WCS, Ron played up the
swivels (with Allison's frilly pants and Ivan's hip-hop
footwork) and used a lot of Lindy elements in the
lifts/tosses because these are more exciting to
watch. Dance characteristics such as slotting are
simply not important in show dancing. But at least
the music was characteristic WCS.
On the other side of the spectrum, when Bob+Julia
Powers (long time reigning AS Rhythm champions)
do their gig, nothing they do is representative of the
Rhythm dancing most of us do. So trying to pretend
that show dancing has to reflect the basic character
of a dance is a lost cause.
> Could they have been leaning any farther back away from the connection? (
> The old style "V" )
> And how many swivels can you put in one routine?
Well, the "V" goes with the swivels, doesn't it? Ron
did mention in the coaching that WCS is a lot more
"reserved" than general swing dancing, with less
bounce and giggliness. And I think Allison+Ivan followed
up reasonably well on this. I think some of the
swiveling takes up the (excess) energy that would have
(naturally) gone into bouncing. Remember, it's not
your grandma's WCS.
> While I understand your point, I wouldn't make that bet.
> Any rank beginner with any basic dance skills that had been prepared by any
> WC coach would have been better.
I wonder how many of these beginners are willing to do
over-head leaps with under-the-leg catches. Just on
pure physicality, Allison+Ivan would beat most dancers.
I stand behind my bet.
> For me, they didn't even make the grade for "doing the dance".
Agreed, if your criteria is basic elements.
> I agree, on all those counts. I love Allison's dancing in particular and if
> I set aside my WC perspectives they did okay.
She moves well and has lots of enthusiasm. She
does indicate that she and Ivan look like 12-year olds.
These two seem to "age" well together. I have to
believe that when the judges kept Ivan around,
they recognized his potential to excel (something the
audience wouldn't easily see).
> The talent seems so much more even this year that it makes it difficult to
> predict who may win it all. At this point there's two or three girls and two
> three boys that it could end up being any one of them. While I know much of
> RAD (including me) is pulling for Benji & Heidi, we have to remember that
> ultimately it will be solos that win the contest.
The lopsided cheerleading gets ridiculous. As when
Heidi did a very mediocre performance the other week
and some here kept making excuses for her.
> That's a disadvantage for un-coupled couples dancers.
Yes. Couple dancers often don't have enough
versatility and ability to move on their own. It's
interesting how in many partner dances (ballroom
particularly), they consider the side-by-side
single-dancing higher level, when the solo dancing
really should be pre-requisite of partner dancing.
I always get bored watching couple dancers dancing
side-by-side because there are so many other
dance disciplines where the dynamic solo dancing
beats the uncoupled couple dancing by miles.
> Agreed again. I can never tell where the hell they are coming from.
> They compliment one couple about an element and when the next couple appears
> to have that element in spades they then proceed to criticize them for
> another element. They're all over the place.
It's just a show where the judges need to appear
knowledgeable, often about subjects foreign to
them. But, once in a while, the judges do make
valid and insight-full comments.
I think the random-coupling format of last season
allowed judges to appear more "intelligent" because
there was more to critique out-of-the-air. The
(wiser) format of fixed couples has taken a lot of
the unknown/random/unfamiliar factors out, so
now the judges have less concrete comments. So,
while the dancing has "improved," the judges have
seemed to become "dummer," because of their
wise decision to hand-pick fixed partnering.
isadanc...@gmail.com
right to judge the *dancing* and not the *dance/choreography* - and
thank goodness for that! The dancers have done an amazing job at
picking up a choreographed routine and making it look great and
reasonably clean with such a limited amount of time. It isn't their
fault if the choreographers gave them routines/styling/techniques that
were ill-representative of the dance styles they were billed as
performing.
Ivan and Allison looked nice, as long as one didn't look at the dance
while expecting it to be West Coast Swing (as it is danced today). Now,
if they had titled the dance style something like "Authentic
1980's-Style West Coast Swing" [or something], then one could look at
it with the expectation that they were viewing a fossilized form of
WCS. Ivan looked like he was having a good time (I even caught a
glimpse of that oh-so-smooth casual grin of a comfortable dancer during
their dance), and Allison had some pretty little swivels (again,
old-school).
You could train me for two years and I'd never do the lifts, splits,
flexy-moves they did during that routine. *but*... I have enough faith
in Ivan and Allison's dance and learning abilities, that if they were
given a routine with a choreographer who stuck to modern-style WCS they
would have made it look more like what we dance today. They are
experienced and skilled enough to manipulate their body position,
movement, and foot placement into anything that is given them by a
choreographer.
Stan said: "it takes more than being a top competitor to have the
bredth and
depth of experience to choreograph and judge a show like this"
Agreed, and then some. It takes being a top competitor in a *given*
style of dance who is kept up-to-date on current evolutions/trends in
that dance to be qualified to choreograph a dance for a show like this,
especially when this show is a first glimpse at these dances by an
insane amount of viewers.
Is this the first impression we want?
"How many of the sample dances are really representative of the dances?
And is it even important?"
Not many. But it IS important, because these are potential
first-impressions for people who might want to become involved in
dancing. If Ivan/Allison's dance was my first glimpse of WCS I would
ask myself, "Why the heck would I want to learn something so hokey like
that? And that MUSIC?" But if I saw today's WCS first, I would be all
over it.
Oh wait. I am. >.^_^.<
As for the judge's comments: can we say, "Scripted"?
dav...@aol.com
Youve got to be kidding. "Don't Happen No More" by Pat Benatar? In
all my years of wcs djing I have never played that song. Nor have I
heard it played. Way too fast and "jumpy", sounds more appropriate to
ECS than WCS. Now, could I imagine our top couples doing a kick-ass
routine to the song? Absolutely. But "characteristic WCS"? Circa
2006? Not hardly.
David Koppelman
soundin...@yahoo.com
> Stan said: "it takes more than being a top competitor to have the
> bredth and
> depth of experience to choreograph and judge a show like this"
>
> Agreed, and then some. It takes being a top competitor in a *given*
> style of dance who is kept up-to-date on current evolutions/trends in
> that dance to be qualified to choreograph a dance for a show like this,
> especially when this show is a first glimpse at these dances by an
> insane amount of viewers.
No. Even the very best competitors are often not good choreographers -
many can only produce choreography that works with their individual
style of dance. I've been the "victim" of several pieces of
choreography that would have been great for the person who produced it.
In general, competitive success is not a guarantee of choreographic
talent, or judging judgement, or even social dancing ability... Of
course, there are some exceptions.
Being "current" in a "given style" and understanding how to produce
choreography that will look good on TV, and play well with the music
that the show wants to use, and work with the style and individual
talents of the dancers, and effectively communicating the elements of
styling and technique that will be required, and working efficiently
with short deadlines is what is required in the choreographer for this
show. Competitive success is not a requirement.
Most of the choreographers on the show have never "competed" in any
style of dance.
> Is this the first impression we want?
Yes. The more people who are exposed to the dance the better -
especially when they are people who would not otherwise ever come into
contact with the dance. This show, and others like Dancing with the
Stars have been a great source of new business for studios. Once
someone is in a studio, then they can be exposed to a wide range of
dances they never knew existed.
And no. I would prefer that people see a version of the dance that is
representative of the style and music that is current. But WCS styling
is a slave to fashion. Very little of what was being done in
competition five or ten or fifteen years ago would still look current.
A snapshot of the dance on this show would have a half life of about a
year.
--Stan Graves
Peter D
news:1152198916....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Bob Wheatley wrote:
>
>> It simply wasn't representative of the dance. From head to toe.
>
> Let's get real. How many of the sample dances are really
> representative of the dances? And is it even important?
Yes,let's. All named have been representative thus far. I havent' seen all
of them, but if I missed one that was unprepresentative please identify it
and the approx show and couple and I'll go back, review, and change my
opinion. Yes. And I'm surprised you of all people even ask. I mean you are a
Nitpicker of Nitpickers and now you are asking whether calling something one
thing and dancing something differnet is important? Too funny. :-)
>Ron did mention in the coaching that WCS is a lot more "reserved" than
>general swing dancing, with less bounce and giggliness.
What do others think? Is WCS more reserved than general swing dancing? Me, I
don't think so -- but I'm basing my opinion on observing WCS dancers who
really love to "unreservedly" d their thang. :-)
BTW, was that last world supposed to be "jiggliness" (as in "jiggle")? That
seemed to be more appropro with bounce.
isadanc...@gmail.com
Um, define "reserved"?
.... Well let's see.. this weekend *during* the Advanced J&J
competitions at PHX I managed to exchange butt-smacks, imitated a
monkey (in tandem, no less!), laughed like a hyena half the time, had
to use double-sided tape to prevent my top from flashing too much skin
in finals, and let's not forget the late-night dancing.... Those kinds
of antics are fueled by a slight buzz, expansive amounts of exhaustion,
and general silliness.
Oh yeah *rolls eyes*. Westies are *really* reserved...
O_o
-=E
______________________________
http://isadanceaholic.blogspot.com
______________________________
isadanc...@gmail.com
year."
Possibly, if they showed a snapshot of how it's danced today... but the
snapshot they showed belongs in a museum!
avid_...@uymail.com
> No. Even the very best competitors are often not good choreographers -
> many can only produce choreography that works with their individual
> style of dance. I've been the "victim" of several pieces of
> choreography that would have been great for the person who produced it.
> In general, competitive success is not a guarantee of choreographic
> talent, or judging judgement, or even social dancing ability... Of
> course, there are some exceptions.
So true.
I recall last season when poor Big Papa (??) was choreographed
to do some slick crawl-thru-the-hole manuever by the Salsa
coach, something his big body simply couldn't do gracefully.
> Being "current" in a "given style" and understanding how to produce
> choreography that will look good on TV, and play well with the music
> that the show wants to use, and work with the style and individual
> talents of the dancers, and effectively communicating the elements of
> styling and technique that will be required, and working efficiently
> with short deadlines is what is required in the choreographer for this
> show. Competitive success is not a requirement.
I'm not sure being current is even that important, as Ron
Montez demonstrates with his dinosaur (or euphemistically,
ageless) dancing style.
> Most of the choreographers on the show have never "competed" in any
> style of dance.
Probably.
> And no. I would prefer that people see a version of the dance that is
> representative of the style and music that is current. But WCS styling
> is a slave to fashion. Very little of what was being done in
> competition five or ten or fifteen years ago would still look current.
> A snapshot of the dance on this show would have a half life of about a
> year.
Styling is the way for instructors to make more money
and dancers to pretend they are chic (when often they
can't "dance") through differentiation. Who wants to be
a slave to fashion, anyway. :-)
Robert J Emmons
> What exactly made it pathetic?
It portrayed WCS as a he-haw country western version of the Lindy Hop,
and displayed a classic ballroom dancer's misunderstanding of current
WCS style. It reminded me of a ballroom recital which I attended a
couple of years after I switched to WCS. An instructor came out in a
cowboy hat, and and danced a bouncy slotted Lindy Hop to a country
western song. My ballroom friends looked at me with a shocked
question in their eyes: "Is that the dopey dance you have been doing
for the past 2 years?" My embarrassed response: "NO. NO. It is not
like that at all!"
> I bet few if any of the whiners
> here could dance anything close to what the two kids did
My criticism is with the choreography, not the dancers who can
certainly do any dance, including a bouncy slotted Lindy, better than
I can.
Ron Montez is a great Latin and ballroom dancer., but the best WCS
dancers and choreographers compete at the US Open Swing Dance
Championships, and other WCS conventions. If they wanted someone with
a resume, they should have gotten Robert Royston, a four time US Open
champion WCS, a featured dancer on Broadway, and an accomplished
choreographer. Mario Robau would be another good choice. There are
many others.
--
Robert Emmons
remmonsR...@aurigen.com
Robert J Emmons
> avid_...@uymail.com wrote:
> But at least
>> the music was characteristic WCS.
>>
>
> Youve got to be kidding. "Don't Happen No More" by Pat Benatar? In
> all my years of wcs djing I have never played that song. Nor have I
> heard it played.
It was bad music. They could have at least checked:
http://www.usaswingnet.com/top_dj_tunes.htm
which shows the top ten WCS songs of ten of the top WCS DJs. That
might have even given Montez a hint that his choreography was
inappropriate.
--
Robert Emmons
remmonsR...@aurigen.com
avid_...@uymail.com
> Yes,let's. All named have been representative thus far. I havent' seen all
> of them, but if I missed one that was unprepresentative please identify it
> and the approx show and couple and I'll go back, review, and change my
> opinion. Yes. And I'm surprised you of all people even ask. I mean you are a
> Nitpicker of Nitpickers and now you are asking whether calling something one
> thing and dancing something differnet is important? Too funny. :-)
I prefer to view things in perspective. In the context of
this show, anything even resembling the named dance
is sufficient, because basic technique is unimportant
verses the overall delivery and entertainment value.
> What do others think? Is WCS more reserved than general swing dancing? Me, I
> don't think so -- but I'm basing my opinion on observing WCS dancers who
> really love to "unreservedly" d their thang. :-)
I certainly wouldn't consider WCS "high energy" compared
to Lindy Hop. The average age of attendees at venues that
cater to the various types of swing dances also reflect this.
When one can't bounce any more, one walks. :-)
> BTW, was that last world supposed to be "jiggliness" (as in "jiggle")? That
> seemed to be more appropro with bounce.
I meant the condition related to the adjective "giggly."
But apparently, there is no such word. Allison+Ivan
were being too "lively" and 'kiddish" rather than
"slinky" and "sophisticated." More or less what
Ron said.
avid_...@uymail.com
> .... Well let's see.. this weekend *during* the Advanced J&J
> competitions at PHX I managed to exchange butt-smacks, imitated a
> monkey (in tandem, no less!), laughed like a hyena half the time, had
> to use double-sided tape to prevent my top from flashing too much skin
> in finals, and let's not forget the late-night dancing.... Those kinds
> of antics are fueled by a slight buzz, expansive amounts of exhaustion,
> and general silliness.
>
> Oh yeah *rolls eyes*. Westies are *really* reserved...
I hope you're not one of those retirees pretending to be
a teenager. Experiencing the Cocoon phenomenon?
ChristoFUnk
in the giant punch bowl of grape seeds.
The question is: Is this English? Yes. Is it the way we speak it?
Not really... Am I upset as someone who speaks English. No. Why not?
Why would other people be upset?
Myabe a btteer statmenet wolud be tihs? Now is it English? You
understood it, right? It wasn't another language...
ok, one more...
Perhaps if I used un ejemplo which is appropriate por un salsa
instructor who choreographs a non-salsa dance.
Ok, its mostly english...but what is English but a bunch of german and
latin words altered slightly? When does language change? Is it bad to
speak Olde English? Do we get offended...
PS. I selected English / Automatic for the language for this
post...ironic!
Andy Bouman
> I have a different viewpoint. Of course, the choreography and
> dancing were NOT what West Coast Swing in our world is like.
> However, a very small number of people who watched, know that.
Yes. Remember that Alison and Ivan essentially had a long weekend
(since the Wednesday night show is actually taped on Monday) to learn a
dance that neither has done before, and then perform a 90-second
routine on national TV that had to keep the interest of the judges and
the audience.
Was it "authentic" WCS? Well, no. Would I have preferred choreographers
with more knowledge of the current WCS scene? Sure.
But as absolute beginners, there's no way Alison and Ivan could have
learned a champion-level WCS routine in three days anyway. (Nor are
other dancers on the show learning champion-level ballroom or hip hop
routines.) What they got was a routine with some cutesy tricks but very
little actual dancing. (Just like there was hardly any actual Hustle
dancing in the "Disco" routine that Natalie and Musa did.) Was it a
crowd pleaser? Well, we'll find out tonight when the votes have been
counted.
I just wish the show would have given what they did a more generic name
such as "Swing" instead of "West Coast Swing," since there wasn't much
WC in what they did. And why was Alison wearing those ridiculous
ruffled pants? What was the costume department thinking? Oh ... those
were the same people who dressed Heidi in hot pants and knee pads ...
:-)
Also, keep in mind that Alison and Ivan are NOT the ones on the show
representing top competitive WCS as it is danced today. Benji and Heidi
are. Viewers who watched the early shows with the tryouts HAVE seen
what WCS is supposed to look like. And some viewers get the difference.
Consider this comment, for example, posted by a viewer on another
discussion forum:
> Ivan/Allison - I know, it's not fair to compare them to Benji
> and Heidi, since I read they're the world champions at West
> Coast Swing. (Is there an East Coast Swing? Mountain Time
> Zone Swing? These are questions I have...) But I have no
> other frame of reference, so I wasn't all that impressed.
> It didn't even seem to be the same kind of dancing, just
> kind of related.
See, even some casual viewers who don't know a thing about WCS can see
the difference.
Andy Bouman
San Francisco Bay Area
wcskid
Doug Silton wrote:
> What I don't understand is why they didn't have Kyle & Sarah, Jordan &
> Tat, or Parker & Jessica doing the choreography.
YOU SAID IT! Not to mention Robert or Debra, on and on... There are
alot more people current they could have chose from.
Cheers!
Jim Foss
Ron N.
> I'm thinking of Mario Robau, Jr., Robert Royston and Michael Keihm,
> not necessarily in that order. Perhaps Buddy could have pulled it off
> but that would have been totally out of the question.
I came up with the same 4 names. BTW, Buddy and Ron Montez
have worked together many many times over the last two decades
at various dance camps. I would wonder whether nothing rubbed
off, or whether Ron knew better what the show's producers wanted
than the WCS social dance community here does.
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
shiden_kai
> I hope you're not one of those retirees pretending to be
> a teenager. Experiencing the Cocoon phenomenon?
I don't think you really know the age of the person
that you are commenting about. I don't think she's
anywhere near retirement age!
Ian
dav...@aol.com
Great post, Andy. And thanks for posting that comment from "another
discussion forum" (link please?), it did help put things in perspective
for me.
David Koppelman
dav...@aol.com
Come on out to Summer Dance Camp and I'll introduce you to
"isadanceaholic". I think you'll find she's, um, well, not very close
to retirement age:-)
David Koppelman
Ed Jay
Not unusual for avid. It usually speaks volumes without a clue about what
it's writing about.
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
>
> I hope you're not one of those retirees pretending to be
> a teenager. Experiencing the Cocoon phenomenon?
>
You may want to consider meeting a few of these folks BEFORE you comment on
them. Erica is a young Cutie, and her Energy is contagious!
Bob Wheatley
news:1152221747.5...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I would have suggested the same three names myself.
However, I don't think it would be appropriate for Buddy to be
choreographing for the show while Benji and Heidi are still on it.
Bob Wheatley
LP
avid_...@uymail.com wrote:
> shiden_kai wrote:
>
> > No, I thought it was pathetic....but the blame has to be placed on
> > the choreographer. As far as no one caring, if you are talking about
> > the tv audience....they probably have no clue what they are looking at,
> > other then the WCS dancers who manage to make it to the taping.
>
> here could dance anything close to what the two kids did
I could... but the performance of the choreography wasn't what was
pathetic...
it was pathetic as a representation of WCS... it was *so* much closer
to ECS and not at all a good representation of WCS
but I agree with you about the haphazard judging
luv yall,
LP
isadanc...@gmail.com
> dopey dance you have been doing for the past 2 years?" My embarrassed
> response: "NO. NO. It is not like that at all!""
Good god I've been crowing about Benji and WCS for weeks now, trying to
get my entire company immersed in the show... and I walk into work this
morning to the VERY same situation as above, if you just replace
"ballroom friends" with "coworkers"!!! I had to spend the next hour
touring them all over the internet to view some much more appropriately
representative demonstrations of West Coast Swing!!!
> I hope you're not one of those retirees pretending to be
> a teenager. Experiencing the Cocoon phenomenon?
I'm 25, thankyouverymuch ;)
Just because I'm overdue for my quarter-life crisis doesn't mean I'm
due for a Cocoon phenomenon, does it? *checks front and rear end for
gravitational effects*
What I find interesting is that the judges found it so important to
comment on the decade-specific styles of dances in some of the other
forms *cough, Hip-Hop* (they differentiated between old-school and
modern styles during critiques) and they specified 70's Disco (thank
god.. although I did catch a few Hustle moves in there - does that
count as actual Disco dancing??)... but they said nothing about the
fact that the West Coast Swing that was performed was an older styling.
What.
I respect the fact that Mr. Montez is a professional in his own right.
But just because he is accomplished, successful, and educated in one
dance style does not mean the same creative/technical genius (or
whatever) will come to light when he is working with another dance
style.. How disappointing.
Ivan and Allison did very well with what they were given. If the dance
called for Old-school WCS, they certainly emulated it.
Too bad this is 2006.
*Update* oh, Look... Fox deleted all the WCS-related posts off their
bulletin board yet AGAIN. Big surprise. Methinks not.... it's ok, Pam!
I agreed with you!!! That's ok. I'll never delete my blog.
-=E
_______________________________
http://isadanceaholic.blogspot.com
________________________________
isadanc...@gmail.com
bulletin board yet AGAIN. Big surprise? Methinks not.... it's ok, Pam!
isadanc...@gmail.com
> You may want to consider meeting a few of these folks BEFORE you comment on
> them. Erica is a young Cutie, and her Energy is contagious!
Hey now, you're giving me a reputation here!
Are my observations about the similarities between 1980's-90's-style
WCS and the WCS as seen on SYTYCD too far off-target? I may have been
in diapers and playing with Barbie dolls and ponies during that time,
but even I can see the similarities between Ivan/Allison's WCS and
Lance Shermoen and Mary Ann Nunez's 1983/84 US Open Showcase
routines.... In fact, I'd say that relationship is stronger than the
connection between the SYTYCD routine and today's Young America WCS
routines....
I'd like to take this moment to thank Jack and the staff at Top Cats
for the perpetually enjoyable history lesson that takes place nearly
every Sunday when the US Open Classic and Showcase Anniversary DVDs are
played... ^_^
Watching that DVD allows one to view the steady transformation of WCS
through the years :) Maybe Ron has the same DVD? LOL
Ron N.
> "Ron N." <rhnl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1152221747.5...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Mike Corbett wrote:
> >> I'm thinking of Mario Robau, Jr., Robert Royston and Michael Keihm,
> >> not necessarily in that order. Perhaps Buddy could have pulled it off
> >> but that would have been totally out of the question.
> >
> > I came up with the same 4 names. BTW, Buddy and Ron Montez
> > have worked together many many times over the last two decades
> > at various dance camps. I would wonder whether nothing rubbed
> > off, or whether Ron knew better what the show's producers wanted
> > than the WCS social dance community here does.
> I would have suggested the same three names myself.
> However, I don't think it would be appropriate for Buddy to be
> choreographing for the show while Benji and Heidi are still on it.
My assumption is that's why Mike wrote that it was totally out
of the question... (for this seasons contest certainly.)
Ed Jay
>Are my observations about the similarities between 1980's-90's-style
>WCS and the WCS as seen on SYTYCD too far off-target? I may have been
>in diapers and playing with Barbie dolls and ponies during that time,
>but even I can see the similarities between Ivan/Allison's WCS and
>Lance Shermoen and Mary Ann Nunez's 1983/84 US Open Showcase
>routines.... In fact, I'd say that relationship is stronger than the
>connection between the SYTYCD routine and today's Young America WCS
>routines....
Some of the "moves" may have been reminiscent of some of the moves waaaay
back then, but the dance they did, IMHO, with the exception of two whips
and one underarm turn, didn't look like any WCS I've seen before. Did
anyone see an anchor or 6- or 8-beat pattern? I didn't.
BTW, lost in this discussion are the wonderful performances both Benji and
Heidi showed us last night. I thought they were both terrific...again.
avid_...@uymail.com
> You may want to consider meeting a few of these folks BEFORE you comment on
> them. Erica is a young Cutie, and her Energy is contagious!
Doesn't the WCS community have any sense of humor?
Some people consider frivolous comments amusing, amongst
them many easy-going retirees.
avid_...@uymail.com
> I just wish the show would have given what they did a more generic name
> such as "Swing" instead of "West Coast Swing," since there wasn't much
> WC in what they did. And why was Alison wearing those ridiculous
> ruffled pants? What was the costume department thinking? Oh ... those
> were the same people who dressed Heidi in hot pants and knee pads ...
> :-)
They should just have called it Lindy, so that the WCS crowd
would have nothing to whine about.
Alison's pants probably came out of Carla Montez's closet,
from when she was competing. IMHO, they worked great with
the swivels, in a gaudy/outlandish way.
isadanc...@gmail.com
> Some of the "moves" may have been reminiscent of some of the moves waaaay
> back then, but the dance they did, IMHO, with the exception of two whips
> and one underarm turn, didn't look like any WCS I've seen before. Did
> anyone see an anchor or 6- or 8-beat pattern? I didn't.
I posted the video on my blog so you can follow along with the
play-by-play:
http://isadanceaholic.blogspot.com/2006/07/so-you-think-you-can-teach.html
Please excuse what I call some of the moves, names which will probably
make most of you far more seasoned dancers cringe but I didn't get my
edumacation in dance-speak....
**********************************************************************************************
Pose.
Whoo flexible!
Here they demonstrate they can do a move that Benji and Heidi can, but
Allison can't seem to get the side-to-side head motion down, hehe.
Dance around each other. Oohhhhh Jazz Hands!!
Swivels, swivels, swivels...and oodles of dizzying action by the camera
crews...
Tricky move, I've seen it somewhere....
A left side pass (kind of, although she went 1&2, 3&4*hold* 5&6*wiggle
wiggle*)
Closed position --> outside tuck turn (with two spins) *no anchor
step*
straight into the first 4 counts of a whip.
Hit the break. Pose. Hit the next break. Pose.
Ronde' into a pull-through *Ack, Jitterbug something!*.
Swivel walks. Slick.
Then there comes two 8-count moves that I swear I did this weekend in
Phoenix during the Adv J&J. I think Allison tried to do a triple-step
or anchor step in between them.
Hmm... Lame pop-lock thingy.
Did he just Duck-walk on a slant???
Oops, they just repeated the same double outside tuck turn. (they must
have worked really hard on that.)
Then comes something that SHOULD be a push-break (sugar-push if you're
Ron Montez ^_^ ). It's a 6-count move, whatever it is.
I thought only Lindy dancers stuck their butt out like that.
Bounce around....
Then she catches his leg and he uses it to free spin her across a slot,
I think. Pretty catchy move, actually.
Here comes a Lindy/Swing/Bal move! No idea what to call it :)
...continuous whip without the whip....
hip bumping....
WATERFALL!!
Hey, I've done that ending pose before!
**********************************************************
Summarize the dance as Tricks with some WCS in between, perhaps? Sounds
like the beginnings of a beautiful Showcase routine! (Showcase dancers,
don't shoot me... I wasn't slamming the division!) You're right. It
isn't WCS (either old or new), it's reminiscent of ancient Westie-ism
many years buried with the hokey rockabilly. (again, i'm ducking here,
not a slam against all Rockabilly!)
> BTW, lost in this discussion are the wonderful performances both Benji and
> Heidi showed us last night. I thought they were both terrific...again.
>
Go Benji for looking so serious, manly, and lovable (perhaps Donyelle
will fall even more in love with you <--- best On-TV
comment-to-mess-with--the-fanatics I've ever heard), and go Heidi for
shaking it like a Polaroid Picture! Loved it! It was dances like that
which refreshed the mind and made up for some of the more boring and
yawn-worthy dance performances, IMHO.
avid_...@uymail.com
> > I hope you're not one of those retirees pretending to be
> > a teenager. Experiencing the Cocoon phenomenon?
>
> I'm 25, thankyouverymuch ;)
>
> Just because I'm overdue for my quarter-life crisis doesn't mean I'm
> due for a Cocoon phenomenon, does it? *checks front and rear end for
> gravitational effects*
Well, at least you seem to have some sense of
humor, unlike some of the fuddy-duds who are
so quick to correct and clarify.
isadanc...@gmail.com
Hey, when I'm 74 I'll still be 25-at-heart and easily amused :) I'll
just have to dance with you at the next event and wow you with my
geriatrics ^_^.
isadanc...@gmail.com
Don't sweat it. It is hard to read smiles through text. Which is why I
try to type them.
>_<
Wait.. that wasn't it.... '>^_^<' There we go.
I just switched on the show. Oh my god.. Cat Deely killed a
Pheasant....
-=E
avid_...@uymail.com
> Don't sweat it. It is hard to read smiles through text. Which is why I
> try to type them.
I purposely leave out emoticons when writing, because it's
the art of interpretation that makes life interesting.
But, consider how some stranger would view the whining and
pettiness of the WCS crowd based on all the fuss made here.
Would he/she want to join a community that is so
unforgiving, which is ironic because WCS is (or used to be)
the quintessential social dance? The peer-reinforced
attitude here is simply suffocating.
Dancing should be like the martial arts, more about attitude
and peace of mind than physical training.
Mike Corbett
>Mike Corbett scribed:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:37:30 GMT, "Leah Flores"
>><Dizzy_D...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Sasquatch" <ocar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1152156682.8...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>I am wondering if anyone else had a similar reaction to the West Coast
>>>> Swing routine done tonight on the show. I understand that there is a
>>>> West Coast Swing in ballroom, but it was even a bad version of that. I
>>>> do not feel that ttonight's performance looked anything like what we do
>>>> every weekend. I feel that this is not good for our sport. I know that
>>>> I will have students coming to me next weekend asking if what was on tv
>>>> is what I am always encouraging them to learn. And I will have to
>>>> explain that what Benji and Heidi do at the end of every show is the
>>>> best West Coast that they will see on the show and that what they saw
>>>> tonight was not "what I call" West Coast.
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone else upset about the fact that tonight's West Coast swing
>>>> performance was so bad and yet no one seemed to care? Or am I
>>>> over-reacting?
>>>>
>>>> Just wondering,
>>>>
>>>> Stevie
>>>>
>>>
>>>Would your reaction have been..."What the Hxxx is that?" If so, then we had
>>>the same reaction! No, it's not a good representation of our sport, however
>>>I guess even bad exposure is better than none at all. We'll just have to
>>>tell people who ask (I don't teach, but a lot of people know what I do for
>>>fun) that what they saw was really more like a bad fusion of Lindy and
>>>WCS...IOW, ask them to ignore what they saw!!!
>>>
>>>Not sure about the other two, but I think Mary Murphy knew the difference,
>>>especially since she was at SwingDiego this year. Think about it this way,
>>>though: wouldn't it be really bad form to say something negative about their
>>>own choreographer/judge? So, the judges were politically correct and
>>>critiqued the dancing, not the dance style.
>>>
>>>Leah Flores
>>
>>I have a different viewpoint. Of course, the choreography and dancing
>>were NOT what West Coast Swing in our world is like. However, a very
>>small number of people who watched, know that. To LOOK like what we
>>do requires a significant amount of technique that can't really be
>>faked.
>>
>>Secondly, not to take anything away from any of the fine WCS dancers
>>suggested as choreographers but I can only think of three from our
>>world that would have "choreography" credentials anywhere near on a
>>par with the other choreographers on the show and I'm not at all
>>certain any of them could have produced authentic looking WCS in a
>>week with those dancers. Of course I would have loved to see them
>>try. :-)
>>
>>I'm thinking of Mario Robau, Jr., Robert Royston and Michael Keihm,
>>not necessarily in that order. Perhaps Buddy could have pulled it off
>>but that would have been totally out of the question.
>>
>The show is in LA? Robert and Deborah!
I don't know where the other choreographers live, Ed. Some of them
(maybe all) are from SoCal but they don't HAVE to be and that's not my
point. I was talking about relative "choreographer" credits and
standing. No matter the competition success, choreographing your own
routines is not the same as having an extensive documented resume of
choreographing for others.
Mike Corbett
avid_...@uymail.com
> Youve got to be kidding. "Don't Happen No More" by Pat Benatar? In
> all my years of wcs djing I have never played that song. Nor have I
> heard it played. Way too fast and "jumpy", sounds more appropriate to
> ECS than WCS. Now, could I imagine our top couples doing a kick-ass
> routine to the song? Absolutely. But "characteristic WCS"? Circa
> 2006? Not hardly.
I was able to listen to some snippet of this song and the
tempo is fast for WCS but slow for ECS. My ears gave
more weight to the instruments that inspired strutting over
bouncing, and the piece had a "bluesy" quality to it.
Not particularly good dance song, but if I were forced to
dance to it, I'd still do WCS over ECS with it. There's
no contention that it was swing music, unlike times when
dancers (on DWTS) were forced to dance swing to cha
music. Undoubtedly, as a seasoned WCS DJ, you'd
just do the prudent thing and avoid it. As for 2006, I
personally don't give much hoot to vintage because I
like variety and surprises.
More importantly, Allison+Ivan were able to move
very comfortably with it, without any air of rushing,
prompting Dan to comment that the dancing looked
unrehearsed and fun.
Peter D
news:1152204516.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> "Is WCS more reserved than general swing dancing?"
>
> Um, define "reserved"?
You'll have to ask "avid". He's the one who used it. :-)
> .... Well let's see.. this weekend *during* the Advanced J&J
> competitions at PHX I managed to exchange butt-smacks, imitated a
> monkey (in tandem, no less!), laughed like a hyena half the time, had
> to use double-sided tape to prevent my top from flashing too much skin
> in finals, and let's not forget the late-night dancing.... Those kinds
> of antics are fueled by a slight buzz, expansive amounts of exhaustion,
> and general silliness.
>
> Oh yeah *rolls eyes*. Westies are *really* reserved...
>
> O_o
>
>
> -=E
> ______________________________
> http://isadanceaholic.blogspot.com
> ______________________________
>
Peter D
news:h82ra2d7kinuovbue...@4ax.com...
He would't get a clue if he stood in a field full of horny clues, at the
height of clue mating season, soaked from head to toe in clue pherenomes,
dancing the clue mating dance, and screaming at the top of his lungs, "can I
get a clue??!!!!!!!!!!!" :-)
dav...@aol.com
Well, this is the first time I've ever been accused of not having a
sense of humor. I'm so....hurt.......>pause to wipe away tears- not!<
Perhaps my idea of humor is not to insult someone you've never met.
Then again I never was much of a Don Rickles fan.
Anyway Erica can obviously take care of herself. Which I should have
known all along:-)
David Koppelman
isadanc...@gmail.com
> Anyway Erica can obviously take care of herself. Which I should have
> known all along:-)
I know Kung Fu! *crouches down into low Ninja stance* HIIIYYAAA!!
.... ok.. I think it's bedtime for Bonzo. Night all.
-=E
Icono Clast
> if they had titled the dance style something like "Authentic
> 1980's-Style West Coast Swing" [or something], then one could look
> at it with the expectation that they were viewing a fossilized
> form of WCS.
Egad! I rarely see my dancing, so have no idea how it looks, but it's
probably '50s style. Nevertheless, I get nice comments from my
partners as well as from people who watch.
"Fossilized" indeed! Harumph!
lsadanc...@gmail.com wrote:
> the snapshot they showed belongs in a museum!
Ouch!
avid_...@uymail.com wrote:
> I'm not sure being current is even that important, as Ron Montez
> demonstrates with his dinosaur (or euphemistically, ageless)
> dancing style.
You're killing me!
It's been years since I've been on the floor with Ron Montez. The
last time I saw him dance Swing, it looked pretty good t'me.
Peter D said:
> What do others think? Is WCS more reserved than general swing
> dancing? Me, I don't think so -- but I'm basing my opinion on
> observing WCS dancers who really love to "unreservedly" d their
> thang. :-)
If "reserved" is synonymous with "controlled", yes. It's a flail-free
dance.
Robert J Emmons said:
> My criticism is with the choreography, not the dancers who can
> certainly do any dance, including a bouncy slotted Lindy, better
> than I can.
An excerpt from:
_________________________________
Subject: Complaints about America
From: Icono Clast
Date: Fri, Dec 16 1994 4:42 am
_________________________________
<< I find [International] style overly-stiff, affected, and
artificial, just too teddibly structured and, well, English. It is
with loathing that I fear the day the English plunge their feet and
hands into West Coast Swing and rename it Syncopated San Francisco
Smooth Shuffle PushWhip Cable Car GripSlot or maybe Losca Lindy or
maybe Ellay Jive or something. I pray that day never comes!
Wanna know what it'll look like? Watch an International Style
dancer who's learned only the basics of Swing. You'll either roar,
moan, or retch. >>
If you're interested, here's a related thread:
Subject: Dance at UCDavis
From: Icono Clast
Date: Mon, Jan 30 1995 1:25 am
Groups: rec.arts.dance
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
avid_...@uymail.com
dav...@aol.com wrote:
> Well, this is the first time I've ever been accused of not having a
> sense of humor. I'm so....hurt.......>pause to wipe away tears- not!<
Whether one takes my statement as accusation or
reminder is a matter of the perceiver's mindset. It's
nice to know, though, that you have the sensitivity to
cry.
> Perhaps my idea of humor is not to insult someone you've never met.
> Then again I never was much of a Don Rickles fan.
That's if you believe aging is an insult (as most Americans
have been brain-washed to do). I look at it as a badge
of honor, and respect the elderly.
> Anyway Erica can obviously take care of herself. Which I should have
> known all along:-)
You have a penchant for chilvary, which, alas, these days
is passe because ladies learn to fend for themselves.
avid_...@uymail.com
> You're killing me!
>
> It's been years since I've been on the floor with Ron Montez. The
> last time I saw him dance Swing, it looked pretty good t'me.
There are quite a few ballroom venues that cater
to the aged, who dance like they did in the 50s.
I don't know of any ballroom dancer who disrespect
these folks, as they are part of the history of
ballroom dancing. We're often amazed 90 year
olds still boogie on the floor.
It seems that this WCS crowd wants to dissociate
itself from the past, choosing hip over classic,
and pushing the notion that if it's not my way then
it's not the right way. Not much different from (some
of) the dance snobs doing IS dancing, I figure.
Bob Wheatley
> But, consider how some stranger would view the whining and
> pettiness of the WCS crowd based on all the fuss made here.
> Would he/she want to join a community that is so
> unforgiving, which is ironic because WCS is (or used to be)
> the quintessential social dance? The peer-reinforced
> attitude here is simply suffocating.
>
I think you may be just a little defensive. You are primarily a ballroom
dancer defending a ballroom stylized version of WC and the mainstream WC
community is condemning it.
Do the math.
And while I dance WC, I am not primarily a WC dancer. Yet even I was one of
the first here to point out the routine's deficiencies.
Bob Wheatley
avid_...@uymail.com
> I think you may be just a little defensive. You are primarily a ballroom
> dancer defending a ballroom stylized version of WC and the mainstream WC
> community is condemning it.
I would be defensive only if I had a stake in the issue,
which I obviously don't. They could have called the
dance on the show Chacha, for all I (or most social
ballroom dancers I know) care. I've yet to hear
much complaint from the handful of fellow dancers
with whom I've discussed the show, particularly
wrt. the accuracy of portrayal of various dances.
They pretty much have Stan's attitude/viewpoint.
> Do the math.
> And while I dance WC, I am not primarily a WC dancer. Yet even I was one of
> the first here to point out the routine's deficiencies.
There's a difference between pointing out the deficiencies
verses the (out-of-proportion) uproar in many of the posts.
avid_...@uymail.com
> Do the math.
One of the most memorable coaching lessons I had from a
world-class competitor was less about dancing than about
general attitude (in life), at least from my perspective.
I was impregnated with the idea that confidence is exuded
from inside, and too many people/dancers try too hard
to attain it via physical means.
Why is it so important for WCS dancers to convince the
non-dancing community that they are chic and relevant?
Shouldn't dance be for the love of dance and joy of
movement? There's the old saying "dance as if no
one is watching" and my correllary, "dance without
caring if anyone is watching."
Perhaps this is the downside of commercializing these
ventures. I, for one, have noticed that the ballroom
world is far from the innocent environment it used to be
be when I first started dancing.
Bob Wheatley
news:1152278918.7...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You gotta' remember that the RAD-land universe is centered in the
So-Cal region where WC is king.
There's been some incredibly ugly Salsa dancing that hasn't resulted in any
posts either. Ditto for most of the dance styles that these poor kids have
to learn in only a couple of days. But IMHO the WC was one of the worst
representations I've seen thus far and most of that blame lies at Mr.
Montez's feet. Unless of course he's willing to take the credit/blame for
that "Krumping" crap. WTF is that ugly mess?
It looks like foreplay for a gang fight.:>)
Bob Wheatley
Tom Tom
"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster...@directway.com> wrote in message
news:12astn7...@corp.supernews.com...
Rap and Heavy Heavy Metal.
Krump, for me, is the Gangster Rap or Heavy Heavy Metal of dance. I HATE IT
because I don't appreciate it. I don't see any "talent" as I do for ones
who hip-hop, do lyrical, or many other dance styles that I may not do myself
but still offer me a WoW factor at times or even gives me chills.
Tom Jennings
>
>
> Bob Wheatley
>
>
Peter D
news:1152275398.5...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> dav...@aol.com wrote:
>> Well, this is the first time I've ever been accused of not having a
>> sense of humor. I'm so....hurt.......>pause to wipe away tears- not!<
>
> Whether one takes my statement as accusation or
> reminder is a matter of the perceiver's mindset. It's
> nice to know, though, that you have the sensitivity to
> cry.
>
>> Perhaps my idea of humor is not to insult someone you've never met.
>> Then again I never was much of a Don Rickles fan.
>
> That's if you believe aging is an insult (as most Americans
> have been brain-washed to do). I look at it as a badge
> of honor, and respect the elderly.
Your insult was not "aging". Your insult was to mock what you considered the
"aged" shouldn't be doing. If you consider age a badge of honour, then show
it by allowing the "eged" to act as they see fit to act -- youthful or
otherwise.
>> Anyway Erica can obviously take care of herself. Which I should have
>> known all along:-)
>
> You have a penchant for chilvary, which, alas, these days
> is passe because ladies learn to fend for themselves.
You have a penchant for broad generalisations, a knack for cluelessness, and
the belief that you can talk out of both sides of your mouth and get away
with it.
HAND
Mike Corbett
Even so, notice the "Krump", hip hop, ballroom, and latin
choreographers were authentic to the genre for the most part.
Mike Corbett
Peter D
news:1152280169.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Bob Wheatley wrote:
>
>> Do the math.
>
> One of the most memorable coaching lessons I had from a
> world-class competitor was less about dancing than about
> general attitude (in life), at least from my perspective.
> I was impregnated with the idea that confidence is exuded
> from inside, and too many people/dancers try too hard
> to attain it via physical means.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! "impregnated"? What, you ate a dictionary for breakfast?
One of the keys to impressing others with your vocabulary is to pull it off
naturally, not to toss in big words haphazardly. Next time you want to use
big words consider "elephant", "wheelbarrow", or "hippopotamus". I find them
useful when searching for big words to use.
> Why is it so important for WCS dancers to convince the
> non-dancing community that they are chic and relevant?
And you can add "mischaracterisation" to your list of penchants.
Andy Bouman
http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com
The comment I quoted came from page 461 of the SYTYCD forum.
Here's another comment on yet another site from someone with limited
WCS exposure:
> ivan & allison, west coast swing:
> west coast swing my ass. even with my really
> limited knowledge, that sure didn't seem very
> WCS to me. they did, uh, ok. but boo on phony
> WCS! benji, kick some montez (sp?) ass, plz.
(David, that came from:)
http://vixen-ontheedge.blogspot.com/2006/07/vietnamese-waltz.html
So again. for all you folks who were outraged by the show calling that
routine "WCS," I do think lots of viewers got that it was nothing like
the WCS they've been seeing Benji and Heidi do.
Andy Bouman
San Francisco Bay Area
dav...@aol.com wrote:
> Andy Bouman wrote:
> > Consider this comment, for example, posted by a viewer on another
> > discussion forum:
> >
> Great post, Andy. And thanks for posting that comment from "another
> discussion forum" (link please?), it did help put things in perspective
> for me.
>
> David Koppelman
avid_...@uymail.com
> You gotta' remember that the RAD-land universe is centered in the
> So-Cal region where WC is king.
So, are you saying that SoCal has a disproportionate
share of cry-babies?
Hey, have you wondered why they don't have any
CW dancing in the show? Why aren't the CW
dancers crying foul?
> There's been some incredibly ugly Salsa dancing that hasn't resulted in any
> posts either. Ditto for most of the dance styles that these poor kids have
> to learn in only a couple of days. But IMHO the WC was one of the worst
> representations I've seen thus far and most of that blame lies at Mr.
The representation may be poor but the presentation
was fine.
I'd be interesting to conduct a statistical poll to
see how many participants in how many dance
genres feel slighted by the show. I'll go check
some ballroom Websites to see how nitpicky
their respective following are.
> Montez's feet. Unless of course he's willing to take the credit/blame for
> that "Krumping" crap. WTF is that ugly mess?
> It looks like foreplay for a gang fight.:>)
It's "art." And even feces in museums qualify.
trish_...@hotmail.com
dav...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Come on out to Summer Dance Camp and I'll introduce you to
> "isadanceaholic". I think you'll find she's, um, well, not very close
> to retirement age:-)
Ohgoodlawdy... if E is close to retirement than the rest of us are all
screwed.
;^))))
t
Robert J Emmons
> But as absolute beginners, there's no way Alison and Ivan could have
> learned a champion-level WCS routine in three days anyway.
I think these kids show an incredible aptitude for picking up new
dances. They seem to be capable of reaching a level in a few days
that it takes most of us months or years to achieve. Maybe not
championship level, but very impressive. They have hip-hoppers doing
"Vietnamese <sic> Waltz", and WCSers doing Afro-Cuban Rumba, and
ballet dancers doing hip-hop.
I think that Robert Royston or Mario Robau, or others we know could
have taught Allison and Ivan some incredibly smooth and cool moves in
just a few days. Instead, Ron Montez had them hopping around like
rodents on crack.
I keep asking: Why Ron Montez? Has anyone ever even seen him at one
of the big WCS events? I think my instructor, Phil LaMothe, had the
answer. Apparently, Montez put out several sucessful instructional
WCS videos. Consequently, many outside the WCS community think he is
the authority. How scary is that?
--
Robert Emmons
remmonsR...@aurigen.com
trish_...@hotmail.com
>
> Doesn't the WCS community have any sense of humor?
> Some people consider frivolous comments amusing, amongst
> them many easy-going retirees.
Geez, avid...
We read rec.arts.dance, for gawd's sake... of course we're all "easily
amused," LOL... can you say SPECIAL??? (just smile and nod, smile and
nod)
LOL...
Robert J Emmons
> BTW, Buddy and Ron Montez have worked together many many times over
> the last two decades at various dance camps. I would wonder
> whether nothing rubbed off, or whether Ron knew better what the
> show's producers wanted than the WCS social dance community here
> does.
Nigel Lythgoe is the shows executive producer, creator and head judge.
Benji and Heidi did their championship showcase routine as part of
Benji's audition. Perhaps you did not see the audition shows? Nigel
was *wowed*. He thought it was great. He couldn't decide who was
better, Benji or Heidi. I think we would all be singing a different
tune if we had seen WCS choreographed by Royston, Robau, or ...
--
Robert Emmons
remmonsR...@aurigen.com
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:1152276302.8...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> There are quite a few ballroom venues that cater
> to the aged, who dance like they did in the 50s.
> I don't know of any ballroom dancer who disrespect
> these folks, as they are part of the history of
> ballroom dancing. We're often amazed 90 year
> olds still boogie on the floor.
>
There are a number of venues in LA, Palm Springs, and San Diego that tend to
cater to senior dancers as well.
> It seems that this WCS crowd wants to dissociate
> itself from the past, choosing hip over classic,
> and pushing the notion that if it's not my way then
> it's not the right way.
No one said any such thing! You draw a conclusion with little or no facts to
back it up. Sometime get to know a few people in the WCS Communitie"S"
before you draw erroneous conclusions.
Not much different from (some
> of) the dance snobs doing IS dancing, I figure.
>
Again you draw a conclusion with little or no facts to back it up. What was
shown on SYTYCD was billed as WCS, and it was not what is currently being
done. That is a fact, and no one made that wrong, merely misleading to
anyone that is unaware of what WCS really is. If someone showed news reels
of American Football from the 50's, it would also mislead as to what is
currently being done.
See ya,
John
isadanc...@gmail.com
> Nigel Lythgoe is the shows executive producer, creator and head judge.
> Benji and Heidi did their championship showcase routine as part of
> Benji's audition. Perhaps you did not see the audition shows? Nigel
> was *wowed*. He thought it was great. He couldn't decide who was
> better, Benji or Heidi. I think we would all be singing a different
> tune if we had seen WCS choreographed by Royston, Robau, or ...
Well that's just dandy that Nigel is floored by Benji and Heidi's WCS.
He loved their social-WCS-scene style WCS routine. Nigel seemed to be
taken by Ivan and Allicon's ballroom-WCS-scene style WCS routine (from
whatever prehistoric era whence it came). Any readers may not
personally agree with calling these different syles of WCS, but if the
show producers insist on calling what they showed Wednesday night WCS,
it had damn better be a different style than what I currently dance, or
I want a refund on my lessons!
The part that just IRKS me to pieces is that the show has lumped these
two styles of WCS into one dance style - but it just is not the case,
as is proven by the simple fact that while the Ballroom world's idea of
WCS has stayed pretty much frozen (in regards to teaching using Dvida
and related Syllabii), the Social dancer's idea of WCS has evolved,
changed, and improved (*IMHO*) into a different style.
I think it is completely unfair to present (old school) Ballroom-style
WCS as a representative routine in a world that is currently dominated
by Social-style WCS.
Is Savoy style Lindy Hop the same as Hollywood style Lindy Hop or
Smooth style Lindy Hop?
**************************************
> But as absolute beginners, there's no way Alison and Ivan could have
> learned a champion-level WCS routine in three days anyway.
Nothing directed at you Andy, but did anyone say they were looking for
a Champion-level WCS routine? I certainly didn't. I merely said I was
looking for routine that represents WCS as it is in 2006.
Besides, they're trained as dancers to pick up choreography, patterns,
and exactness. Read my post earlier about teaching a Swing component at
a summer dance Intensive camp for Jazz and Ballet dancers.
************************************
> Come on out to Summer Dance Camp and I'll introduce you to
> "isadanceaholic". I think you'll find she's, um, well, not very close
> to retirement age:-)
I'm much closer to the age when I was weaned off formula than I am to
retirement age... O_o
-=E
_____________________________
http://isadanceaholic.blogspot.com
_____________________________
Bob Wheatley
news:9t0ta21pmghunvfip...@4ax.com...
Makes me wonder why they are capable of pursuing and acquiring appropriate
coaches for those styles and all the while they have world champion showcase
WC dancers on their show they couldn't find an appropriate WC coach?
Bob Wheatley
avid_...@uymail.com
> > It seems that this WCS crowd wants to dissociate
> > itself from the past, choosing hip over classic,
> > and pushing the notion that if it's not my way then
> > it's not the right way.
>
> No one said any such thing! You draw a conclusion with little or no facts to
> back it up. Sometime get to know a few people in the WCS Communitie"S"
> before you draw erroneous conclusions.
Let's dissect what I stated...
Is it reasonable to conclude, based solely on the posts
in this NG thread, that _THIS_ WCS crowd desires to
dissociate itself from the past? It's the major thrust
of the ruckus, if one reads carefully. And in many, many,
instances, posters have indicated that the way WCS
was done in the show was not the right way, nor "my"
way. Do I need to cut and paste all the sections that
clearly substantiate my conclusion? I think many
posters would gladly back up my statement.
Whether WCS dancers are great people or indeed
flexible of mind is not the issue. I'm discussing
this thread, especially when viewed from a third
party angle.
> Not much different from (some
> > of) the dance snobs doing IS dancing, I figure.
> >
>
> Again you draw a conclusion with little or no facts to back it up. What was
> shown on SYTYCD was billed as WCS, and it was not what is currently being
> done. That is a fact, and no one made that wrong, merely misleading to
> anyone that is unaware of what WCS really is. If someone showed news reels
> of American Football from the 50's, it would also mislead as to what is
> currently being done.
As has been pointed out many times, pretty
much all the dances are misrepresented. The
question is whether the ruckus and indignation
raised by the WCS posters in this thread are
proportionate to the that of dancers in other
genres. If it's significantly higher, then the
term "snobby" may be applicable.
Swin...@webtv.net
<I keep asking: Why Ron Montez? Has anyone ever even seen him at one of
the big WCS events?>
Yep...US Open
There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and
posthumously.
Thomas Sowell
Bob Wheatley
news:1152302450....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Bob Wheatley wrote:
>
>> You gotta' remember that the RAD-land universe is centered in the
>> So-Cal region where WC is king.
>
> So, are you saying that SoCal has a disproportionate
> share of cry-babies?
>
Um, no.
But you already knew that.
> Hey, have you wondered why they don't have any
> CW dancing in the show? Why aren't the CW
> dancers crying foul?
>
Because they didn't let Ron Montez choreograph a Two Step.
Otherwise you'd have to wrap my head in duct tape to keep it from exploding!
:>)
You do accidentally stumble into a good point that I'll get back to in a
moment.
If they were to get say Gary & Lisa (McIntyre) or Ronnie D. & Brandi Tobias
to perform a "demo" I'd bet it would be well received.
As far as choreographing a competitive number for a couple of these kids to
do you'll end up with the same problem that WC had.
American folk dances such as these are less well defined to a specific
"canned" character as the ballroom dances are. Thusly, the non-ballroom
dances are much more difficult to teach because the stylizations are much
more individual based than dance-specific based.
If I had a nickel for every ballroom dancer who tried to dance Two Step or
WC or TR2 or Polka or NC2S, etc., etc., and just couldn't "get it" I could
retire today.:>)
>> There's been some incredibly ugly Salsa dancing that hasn't resulted in
>> any
>> posts either. Ditto for most of the dance styles that these poor kids
>> have
>> to learn in only a couple of days. But IMHO the WC was one of the worst
>> representations I've seen thus far and most of that blame lies at Mr.
>
> The representation may be poor but the presentation
> was fine.
>
Yes, I had already previously agreed to that.
> I'd be interesting to conduct a statistical poll to
> see how many participants in how many dance
> genres feel slighted by the show. I'll go check
> some ballroom Websites to see how nitpicky
> their respective following are.
>
A couple of years ago Stanton Welch, the Artistic Director of The Houston
Ballet, called me and Shawna in to help choreograph and teach them
appropriate character for several CW dances. We worked with them over a
period of weeks teaching some of the best trained dancers on earth the
subtleties of our dance style. Most of them would never be very good couples
dancers, but that's okay. That's not what they do.
Two points about the above:
1. Stanton Welch did not know me and Shawna. He sought us out via references
so his dancers would be as authentic as possible. He/the show made the
effort to find competent coaches.
2. The show was a hit and no one complained. However, if Shawna and I had
choreographed the ballet portions you can bet there would have been some
serious complaining.
>> Montez's feet. Unless of course he's willing to take the credit/blame for
>> that "Krumping" crap. WTF is that ugly mess?
>> It looks like foreplay for a gang fight.:>)
>
> It's "art." And even feces in museums qualify.
>
Yes, and in my humble opinion....
I think they both looked the same. :>)
Bob Wheatley
Bob Wheatley
news:7956-44A...@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
> Robert asked:
> <I keep asking: Why Ron Montez? Has anyone ever even seen him at one of
> the big WCS events?>
>
> Yep...US Open
>
Probably had a hidden video camera getting moves for his next WCS video.:>)
Bob Wheatley
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:1152310383.1...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Is it reasonable to conclude, based solely on the posts
> in this NG thread, that _THIS_ WCS crowd desires to
> dissociate itself from the past?
No it is NOT reasonable, in fact those that paved the way, like Jack Carey
and Annie Hirsch are among the MOST honored at WCS events as you would know
if you ever attended one.
It's the major thrust
> of the ruckus, if one reads carefully.
Only through YOUR inference.
And in many, many,
> instances, posters have indicated that the way WCS
> was done in the show was not the right way, nor "my"
> way. Do I need to cut and paste all the sections that
> clearly substantiate my conclusion? I think many
> posters would gladly back up my statement.
>
Another faulty conclusion. What was doen on TV is NOT what is done by WCS
dancers at ANY WCS event. It was NOT a "my way" thing.
>
> As has been pointed out many times, pretty
> much all the dances are misrepresented. The
> question is whether the ruckus and indignation
> raised by the WCS posters in this thread are
> proportionate to the that of dancers in other
> genres.
It is proportionate to the amount of WCS dancers that post here in this
forum.
If it's significantly higher, then the
> term "snobby" may be applicable.
>
Only by the ignorant who do not know that the majority of those that post
here are WCS dancers.
Tom Tom
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:1152310383.1...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> John Wheaton wrote:
>
> > > It seems that this WCS crowd wants to dissociate
> > > itself from the past, choosing hip over classic,
> > > and pushing the notion that if it's not my way then
> > > it's not the right way.
> >
> > No one said any such thing! You draw a conclusion with little or no
facts to
> > back it up. Sometime get to know a few people in the WCS Communitie"S"
> > before you draw erroneous conclusions.
>
> Let's dissect what I stated...
>
> Is it reasonable to conclude, based solely on the posts
> in this NG thread, that _THIS_ WCS crowd desires to
> dissociate itself from the past? It's the major thrust
> of the ruckus, if one reads carefully. And in many, many,
> instances, posters have indicated that the way WCS
> was done in the show was not the right way, nor "my"
> way. Do I need to cut and paste all the sections that
> clearly substantiate my conclusion? I think many
> posters would gladly back up my statement.
>
I certainly wouldn't back up your statement. My reasonable conclusion is
the major thrust of this so called ruckus is that the "WCS" performed on
SYTYCD is not reflective of currently danced WCS as danced at major WCS
events/conventions and as opposed to Dance Studios or the Ballroom
Community, AND the show did not distinguish/comment the performance was more
typical of 80's style.
I also fail to see how this overall group desires to disassociate itself
from the past.
Tom Jennings
shiden_kai
> Here's another comment on yet another site from someone with limited
> WCS exposure:
>
>> ivan & allison, west coast swing:
>> west coast swing my ass. even with my really
>> limited knowledge, that sure didn't seem very
>> WCS to me. they did, uh, ok. but boo on phony
>> WCS! benji, kick some montez (sp?) ass, plz.
> So again. for all you folks who were outraged by the show calling that
> routine "WCS," I do think lots of viewers got that it was nothing like
> the WCS they've been seeing Benji and Heidi do.
While "vixen" does have limited WCS knowledge, she has been posting
old clips of Benji doing J & J stuff from a few years ago, so I think she
has a bit better idea of what it looks like. Plus, Benji and Heidi's
routine
from this last USopen is kicking around on youtube. So for the people
who are interested enough to do some digging, they can get some idea
of what it looks like. There are also some Jordan/Tatiana clips on a
french site too.
Ian
Andy Bouman
> > But as absolute beginners, there's no way Alison and Ivan could have
> > learned a champion-level WCS routine in three days anyway.
>
> Nothing directed at you Andy, but did anyone say they were looking for
> a Champion-level WCS routine? I certainly didn't. I merely said I was
> looking for routine that represents WCS as it is in 2006.
No disagreement from me on that, Erica. In case it wasn't clear, I
agree with everyone here who thinks the so-called WCS routine was a
dated 1980s-era ballroom-style WCS (with some ballroom-style ECS thrown
in for good measure). And that a choreographer more familiar with the
current WCS scene might have produced something more authentic. And
that there are some really great WCS choreographers (especially in
Southern California, where the show is being taped) who could have been
hired for this.
Although many of them might have been in Phoenix rather than L.A. last
weekend... :-)
I just wanted to make the following points:
1. No matter who is choreographing, WCS is a difficult dance to master,
even for someone with lots of training in other dance genres. So I'm
not convinced that Alison and Ivan would have done it justice even if
they would have had better choreography. People who do WCS routines
badly are often deadly dull to watch.
2. All of the dance styles shown in the program are being simplified
(so the dancers have a shot at mastering what they're taught), modified
to fit the particular strengths and weaknesses of the couple learning
the dance (hence the emphasis on tricks in Natalie and Musa's disco
routine), and tweaked for better TV (to make the routines more
attention-grabbing for the folks at home). True, calling a dance "WCS"
doesn't necessarily make it so, but neither does calling a dance
"Salsa" or "Viennese Waltz."
3. Many of Benji's fans from the show, even the ones who never heard of
WCS before, get that what they saw Alison and Ivan do wasn't a good
representation of current WCS. Some of these fans have been googling
like crazy the past few weeks, finding lots of online clips of Benji
dancing in past WCS competitions--J&Js as well as Showcase routines. So
even they could figure out that the WCS routine on Wednesday night was
bad. (But in my opinion, so was the disco routine.)
4. We don't need to worry too much that this was America's only
exposure to WCS on the show. America has had much better exposure to
WCS through Benji and Heidi being finalists on the show, and doing so
well. They are doing a lot more to generate new interest in WCS than
any 90-second routine by Alison and Ivan could have done.
John Wheaton
"shiden_kai" <V-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xHBrg.128769$iF6.71958@pd7tw2no...
> >
> While "vixen" does have limited WCS knowledge,
You are wayyyy off base!
Erica made finals in the Advanced Division at Phoenix the toughest Jack &
Jill event of the year!
I have danced with her many times, and she is always one of my favorites.
shiden_kai
>> While "vixen" does have limited WCS knowledge,
>
> You are wayyyy off base!
>
> Erica made finals in the Advanced Division at Phoenix the toughest
> Jack & Jill event of the year!
>
> I have danced with her many times, and she is always one of my
> favorites.
Erica is not "vixen", she's "dedicated hobo". I've been following
Erica's comments on both the Vixen-ontheedge blog and her own
blog, and on StrictlyWestie....so I'm quite aware of who she is and
what a good dancer she is. I don't know her personally, just from
what I've gathered on the net.
It's much better to read a bit....before you tell me I'm way off base.
Ian
isadanc...@gmail.com
don't beat John too hard.. his eyes are still resting from the glare of
the Phoenix sun! Mine are still aching.
While us She-Geeks tend to flock together and wander similar paths,
Vixen (Tracy) and I are separate entities with separate blogs. Although
I am flattered by the association; her blog is massive! Now c'mon,
John.. I'm not obsessed with Benji like a true "Swinji"! I simply
support him as a fellow dancer should and rejoice in his well-deserved
launch into stardom.
Wait a minute... who is this "Dedicated Hobo" person? She stole half my
moniker!
I be the original "Isadanceaholic" a.k.a. "Sophisticated Hobo," second
alias borne from a plane flight home from Reno with Libbat a couple
years ago where we were cracking jokes about never unpacking our
suitcases between dance events and applying the jokes as lyrics to
Mya's "Sophisticated Lady."
I virtually live out of my suitcase and travel all the time, but at
least I dress nicely! Hence the "Sophisticated" Hobo.
shiden_kai
> Wait a minute... who is this "Dedicated Hobo" person? She stole half
> my moniker!
Ooops.....my mistake! I meant "sophisticated".
Ian
Ron N.
> But Ron is not the right coach to provide a couple if you want them to
> come out looking like WCS dancers circa 2006.
Let's go back to this statement. Are there really more WCS dancers
who dance at contemporary WCS/CW clubs than there are who dance
WCS at more generic partner dance ballrooms and studios? If not,
then some less current style might be closer to the style of most WCS
dancers even circa 2006.
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
cs_po...@hotmail.com
You might have to ask if the people who will sort of dance a WCS when
something (which suggests that dance more than anything else) comes on
a few times a night in a generic dance place are "WCS dancers" or
"dancers who sorta do a WCS-like thing on occasion"
avid_...@uymail.com
> > <I keep asking: Why Ron Montez? Has anyone ever even seen him at one of
> > the big WCS events?>
> >
> > Yep...US Open
> >
>
>
> Probably had a hidden video camera getting moves for his next WCS video.:>)
Montez is likely much better politically connected than any WCS
instructor, given he's been the long-time host of the Championship
Ballroom (Ohio Star Ball, American Ballroom Co??) show on PBS.
So, he has established credentials. I don't know if most readers
here know this or not, and may be stating the "obvious " (esp.
to ballroom dancers).
Despite the disproportionate representation of "WCS" dancers on
in this NG, the number of ballroom dancers far exceeds WCS-only
dancers, especially accounting ballroom dancers in the world (which
is then dwarfed by club/street dancers). This NG reminds me of
US politics, wherein a highly vocal minority hijacks the overall
agenda (and a NG).
I guess you're an outsider as well. And I now understand your
previous reminder, essentially suggesting that the posters here
are carrying on private conversations, assuming all posters
must know all the characters involved, rather than confining
discussion to the issue at hand. I obviously don't operate in
this manner, even when discussing ballroom issues.
Bob Ford
wrote:
I not seen his WCS videos. Who is the instructor? I doubt himself.
I did see a Lindy/Jitterbug type video he produced but he was not the
instructor and it totally SUCKED!
Bob Ford
Images In Motion
www.imagesinmotion.com
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
>
>This NG reminds me of US politics, wherein a highly vocal minority hijacks
>the overall
> agenda (and a NG).
>
Hijack? That would only be possible if the NG was one thing, and the WCS
dancers made it something else. Again, you are unaware of the facts and if
you do some checking you'll find that from the early days of this group, it
has been primarily WCS dancers, although in the earliest days there were far
more SF Bay Area Dancers.
avid_...@uymail.com
> > Is it reasonable to conclude, based solely on the posts
> > in this NG thread, that _THIS_ WCS crowd desires to
> > dissociate itself from the past?
>
> No it is NOT reasonable, in fact those that paved the way, like Jack Carey
> and Annie Hirsch are among the MOST honored at WCS events as you would know
> if you ever attended one.
Has Carey+Hirsh ever been mentioned anywhere in this
NG/thread before? I stated that I'm sticking to the issue and
the posts in this thread. You obviously expect others
to know all kinds of extraneous things.
> Only through YOUR inference.
Based on information posted in this thread.
> Another faulty conclusion. What was doen on TV is NOT what is done by WCS
> dancers at ANY WCS event. It was NOT a "my way" thing.
"WCS" is danced at many dances not strictly WCS, and
likely different than the way in SoCal. Granted, nobody
does it the Montez way, but the show dance had enough
semblance of swing dancing that it could be called a
medley of ECS/Lindy/WCS/etc., or vintage/ballroom swing
or whatever.
I certainly hope the "WCS" dancers in my area are more
accommodating of dance variations than the militant ones
in this NG. When I first started WCS, I was so impressed
by my local WCS community, which stressed "everyone
gets to dance" via J&Js, etc, in anything resembling swing
dancing rather than the notion that this or that is not
acceptable.
I travel in Salsa circles at times and I have yet to meet a
Salsa dancer who rejects this or that form of Salsa. Same
for Hustle circles. And for my local WCS circle. As I
even stress to ballroom dancers, the earmark of good
social dancing is the accommodation of all kinds of
oddball variations. Of course, certain WCS circles may
have drifted so far away from social dancing that the
dance gestapo reign.
> It is proportionate to the amount of WCS dancers that post here in this
> forum.
Yes, I forget the vocal minority who have taken over this
NG. Particularly for this thread. Last season, there was
little wimper about SYTYCD here.
> Only by the ignorant who do not know that the majority of those that post
> here are WCS dancers.
So, you admit that WCS dancers are snobby/cliquish? This is
rec.arts.dance, _NOT_ rec.arts.dance.wcs. I believe I have
posted in this NG far more than you have over the years, so
you have no more squatter's right than I.
Jonathan Atkinson
> I've yet to see one Smooth dance with any quality of drift.
> The widely acclaimed Foxtrot last week (choreographed by
> Mary the ballroom "specialist") was more like snappy Latin
> dancing than elegant/graceful Smooth dancing. But then,
> it takes years to develop the skill/ability to drift with
> effortless body flight, and the audience couldn't care
> less, probably considering the slow movement boring.
That's actually the way American Style Foxtrot has been going over the past
couple of years. I wouldn't call it "Latin", but it's definitely punchier
than in the past. You may not like the style, but it is nonetheless a pretty
decent representation of what's going on in today's competitive scene. Some
of the better smooth competitors with standard training will incorporate a
small amount of drifty movement into their choreography, but it rarely
accounts for more than 5-10% of the overall content. And that's the 5-10%
that the ballroom choreographers on SYTYCD prefer to avoid, for obvious
reasons.
With dancers of that calibre, it doesn't necessarily take years to teach
them swing, sway, drift, etc... A good pro-am teacher can take a reasonably
talented student from scratch and get a pretty impressive bronze Int'l
Foxtrot inside of a month or two. But these guys have exactly two sessions
totaling about 5 hours to learn a 1 & 1/2 minute routine. We're happy if we
get a couple of decent heel leads and rise & fall on the right beats.
The best ballroom choreographers on the show just are just more clever about
their use of smoke and mirrors. For Foxtrot, that means avoiding SQQ basics.
It doesn't have to be all open work, but it's just wiser to limit the amount
of closed work. When you do use closed position, certain movements are
better than others. Things with more Q's or syncopations get better results,
such as weaves, syncopated hairpins, chasses, tumble turns, etc. It's also
much wiser to keep them out of strict standard closed position. Alternate
hold, semi-open, shadow, or even just allowing the lady to release her left
hand and stretch it outward always renders more convincing results in a
shorter amount of time.
Jonathan
avid_...@uymail.com
> Hijack? That would only be possible if the NG was one thing, and the WCS
> dancers made it something else. Again, you are unaware of the facts and if
> you do some checking you'll find that from the early days of this group, it
> has been primarily WCS dancers, although in the earliest days there were far
> more SF Bay Area Dancers.
I perused the RAD FAQs a long time ago, and I don't recall any
charter that claimed this was WCS domain:
http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dance/faq/part1/
...
Victor's compilations offered information on a wide variety of dances
not particularly giving WCS any more weight than others. That's
what made the NG interesting to me. There were more ballroom
posters when I started looking here as well.
I have enjoyed and learned from many of the postings
here, regardless of the type of dancer offering the insight.
I'm not one who cares much about characters/credentials/
etc., so the history of this NG is far less important to me
than the topic at hand.
So, however this NG has transformed, it's becoming
very "cultish," (especially on this thread, as posters
pop up out of the woodwork).
Bob Wheatley
<Big snip>
> The best ballroom choreographers on the show just are just more clever
> about their use of smoke and mirrors. >
Well said and welcome back stranger.
Bob Wheatley
avid_...@uymail.com
> That's actually the way American Style Foxtrot has been going over the past
> couple of years. I wouldn't call it "Latin", but it's definitely punchier
> than in the past. You may not like the style, but it is nonetheless a pretty
> decent representation of what's going on in today's competitive scene. Some
> of the better smooth competitors with standard training will incorporate a
> small amount of drifty movement into their choreography, but it rarely
> accounts for more than 5-10% of the overall content. And that's the 5-10%
> that the ballroom choreographers on SYTYCD prefer to avoid, for obvious
> reasons.
I know that, sadly. And a few years ago when pro-ams started
doing this, there would be audience members yelling out to the
performers that "this is Smooth, not Latin." Many of the dancers
doing Smooth now had been long-time Latin dancers. Competitive
Standard dancing had been going the punchier way as well, but
I think it's pulling back these days. I don't watch comps much
any more, because I realize how much over-working is going on
in something that should be "effortless."
Now, is the competitive scene representative of the overall scene,
as I estimate social dancers to outweigh competitors by at least
10 to 1. I and many others have never considered Bob+Julia's
dancing, however fantastic it is, to be representative of the AS
Rhythm most folks do. (When you saw them dance, the second
"best" couple didn't come close to catching ones's eyes, to the
point one just ignores B+J, looking for who should be second).
It's unfortunate many Smooth dancers will never experience
what a great feeling it is to fly across the floor, tied up being
way too busy, to the point of clumsiness. Nothing "smooth"
about it.
>
> With dancers of that calibre, it doesn't necessarily take years to teach
> them swing, sway, drift, etc... A good pro-am teacher can take a reasonably
> talented student from scratch and get a pretty impressive bronze Int'l
> Foxtrot inside of a month or two. But these guys have exactly two sessions
> totaling about 5 hours to learn a 1 & 1/2 minute routine. We're happy if we
> get a couple of decent heel leads and rise & fall on the right beats.
Perhaps only if the instructor is top-notch, and I haven't
met one locally yet. Besides, IS Bronze is far from the
really cool body flight one can eventually attain, usually
accomplished via force than finesse.
I disagree that it doesn't take years to get good, because
a lot of it involves muscle/joint/instinct etc. development,
which takes time. The joints on the Hiltons are just not
the same as that on your average dancer.
> The best ballroom choreographers on the show just are just more clever about
> their use of smoke and mirrors. For Foxtrot, that means avoiding SQQ basics.
> It doesn't have to be all open work, but it's just wiser to limit the amount
> of closed work. When you do use closed position, certain movements are
> better than others. Things with more Q's or syncopations get better results,
> such as weaves, syncopated hairpins, chasses, tumble turns, etc. It's also
> much wiser to keep them out of strict standard closed position. Alternate
> hold, semi-open, shadow, or even just allowing the lady to release her left
> hand and stretch it outward always renders more convincing results in a
> shorter amount of time.
Yes. It's all tricks. That's why my take is that it doesn't
matter how "representative" the sample dance is, because
it's not the "real" thing. I believe Montez used the excessive
swivels and faster music exactly to make the dancing look
more comfortable and easy (and the hard-core WCS crowd
can't appreciate this, irrespective of the authenticity). Most
of the talented IS Latin dancers I've observed do much better
at Jive than Rumba early on exactly because faster is easier
but yet appears much more exciting to the uninitiated. More
bang for the buck.
Welcome back.
avid_...@uymail.com
> It doesn't have to be all open work, but it's just wiser to limit the amount
> of closed work. When you do use closed position, certain movements are
I always feel sorry for the man when it comes to Quickstep,
as there is no AS variant, so there's a fair amount of
closed position movement. It's bad enough that most men
can't hold the frame by themselves, and don't have the
necessary/appropriate thigh/ankle/foot strength, but in
fact they get to lug around the woman, who don't have
the same abilities. Just watching the body angles reveals
how much more work there is for the "leader."
Yet, the judges invariably blame the poor guy for not
being able to hold the frame up.
Mike Corbett
>John Wheaton wrote:
>
>> > Is it reasonable to conclude, based solely on the posts
>> > in this NG thread, that _THIS_ WCS crowd desires to
>> > dissociate itself from the past?
>>
>> No it is NOT reasonable, in fact those that paved the way, like Jack Carey
>> and Annie Hirsch are among the MOST honored at WCS events as you would know
>> if you ever attended one.
>
>Has Carey+Hirsh ever been mentioned anywhere in this
>NG/thread before? I stated that I'm sticking to the issue and
>the posts in this thread. You obviously expect others
>to know all kinds of extraneous things.
Let me see if I can get you a clue. You have insufficient frame of
reference to carry on an informed discussion about West Coast Swing.
As such you are drawing many false conclusions. You see, this thread
is not intended to teach you everything you need to know about any
subject.
In these circumstances it is wise to defer to those who DO know what
they are talking about and either take their comments at face value or
ask for clarification. Confrontation and contradiction are fruitless
tactics for the unarmed combatant.
Mike Corbett
Mike Corbett
>Bob Wheatley wrote:
>
>> > <I keep asking: Why Ron Montez? Has anyone ever even seen him at one of
>> > the big WCS events?>
>> >
>> > Yep...US Open
>> >
>>
>>
>> Probably had a hidden video camera getting moves for his next WCS video.:>)
>
>Montez is likely much better politically connected than any WCS
>instructor, given he's been the long-time host of the Championship
>Ballroom (Ohio Star Ball, American Ballroom Co??) show on PBS.
>So, he has established credentials. I don't know if most readers
>here know this or not, and may be stating the "obvious " (esp.
>to ballroom dancers).
Your speculation on likelihood is WRONG again. First, "connected" to
what? If you mean connected to Lithgoe, fine.
You might want to google names like Annie Hirsch, Jack Carey and
Skippy Blair for starters. Your ignorance is not confirmation of your
speculations being accurate.
And, yes, this dancer is aware of Montez an his hosting credentials.
We're discussing is WCS choreography credentials in this thread, xxx
xxxx.
Mike Corbett
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
>
> I travel in Salsa circles at times and I have yet to meet a
> Salsa dancer who rejects this or that form of Salsa. Same
> for Hustle circles.
You haven't traveled much or you would be aware of those that break on 2 vs
those that break on 1, and are they doing LA Style, NY Style, Cuban, or PR
Salsa?
On Hustle there are the & 123, 12&3, or the 12 &34 5&6 group!
And for my local WCS circle. As I
> even stress to ballroom dancers, the earmark of good
> social dancing is the accommodation of all kinds of
> oddball variations. Of course, certain WCS circles may
> have drifted so far away from social dancing that the
> dance gestapo reign.
>
You are constantly exposing your isolated ignorance!
>> It is proportionate to the amount of WCS dancers that post here in this
>> forum.
>
> Yes, I forget the vocal minority who have taken over this
> NG. Particularly for this thread. Last season, there was
> little wimper about SYTYCD here.
>
More of your isolated ignorance! This group has been predominately WCS all
along, but you are too ignorant to be aware of those fact thingies.
>> Only by the ignorant who do not know that the majority of those that post
>> here are WCS dancers.
>
> So, you admit that WCS dancers are snobby/cliquish?
I would never admit to anything that was NOT true, and again your conclusion
is ignorant!
This is
> rec.arts.dance, _NOT_ rec.arts.dance.wcs. I believe I have
> posted in this NG far more than you have over the years, so
> you have no more squatter's right than I.
>
I have been relatively quiet over the last year, but if you were to track
the postings in this group over the last 6 or 7 years, you would find Ed
Jay, Mike Corbett, and myself being the most frequent posters, so once again
you lead with your ignorant conclusion.
John Wheaton
<avid_...@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:1152331218.3...@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> John Wheaton wrote:
>
>> Hijack? That would only be possible if the NG was one thing, and the WCS
>> dancers made it something else. Again, you are unaware of the facts and
>> if
>> you do some checking you'll find that from the early days of this group,
>> it
>> has been primarily WCS dancers, although in the earliest days there were
>> far
>> more SF Bay Area Dancers.
>
> I perused the RAD FAQs a long time ago, and I don't recall any
> charter that claimed this was WCS domain:
>
You do nothing but expose your ignorance with every post!
The majority of the posters here have ALWAYS been WCS dancers and that goes
back to the late 90's, well before you ever entered. Note I did NOT say that
they were exclusively WCS, however they have ALWAYS been the majority.