"Swiing" Music at the US Swing Open?
SwingingInTheHood
to post this because it just seems like piling on. Running something
as big and diverse as the US Swing Open has to be a difficult job
spread across a lot of talented and dedicated folks. You're going to
forget some things, overlook others, and probably irritate a large
number of people. So, I'm writing this as something to put on the
list to think about for next year's Open.
I came Wednesday night and all day Sunday. I give major kudos to the
folks who decided it was time to connect the dots between where WCS is
today, and where the "Swing" in WCS came from.
I also throughly enjoyed the inclusive tone ("there are many types of
Swing, and they're all good") both in the major program and
competitions.
But, is there anyone else who noticed the absolute hypocrisy of making
all that ballyhoo about "We are the 'Swing' World", and then playing
primarily, exclusively, and nothing but West Coast Swing music during
the Social Dance breaks all Sunday day and night? As Norma Miller
herself said, "How can you call this a Swing party with no Count
Basie?"
I know, I know.... The US Swing Open crowd is primarily a West Coast
Swing crowd, and the history suggests that when you play something
other than WCS music, most of this crowd won't dance. OK, fine. Then
play a real "Swing" song every 1/2 hour to 40 minutes. And throw in
some Hand Dance and Shag music every once and a while as well. I
mean, if you're not recognizing the diversity of Swing on the dance
floor, then all that talk is just that, talk.
You're Sunshine Patriots. You're what Malcom X describes as the worst
kind of Liberal: One who believes in Integration so long as it's not
in your neighborhood. You are the kind of people who believe in
nuclear energy as long as it's not in your back yard, or conservation
so long as you can still drive a Hummer. See my point?
True change is going to hurt a bit. But, if the US Swing Open truly
believes in the diversity of Swing, then they should show it not only
in front of the cameras and under the bright lights and smiley faces,
but where it really counts: On the Dance Floor.
SwingingInTheHood
message, and didn't check to see that I spelled "Swing" correctly in
the title. So, to re-interate, my point isn't to rag on the Open for
not playing "Swing" music during the social dances this year, but
rather, to point out that they should consider doing it next year.
I'm sure this year it was just an oversight, like forgetting to spell-
check your title. Happens to the best of us.
-ron
memiki
Hi Ron -- Do you not like the idea of The Open having a separate Lindy
Room and Lindy DJ? I enjoy dancing WCS to all Shag music, but not to
Lindy music. When you refer to "real swing", I think of music for
Lindy, East Coast Swing, Jitterbug and possibly Hand Dancing. I love
Count Basie, Glenn Miller, Louis Prima, Benny Goodman, Harry James,
Les Brown all the wonderful swing music of yesteryear.......but more
than a touch of "real swing" at a WCS event to which I could not
dance, would discourage me from returning. There are lots of great
jazz and blues that are adaptable to WCS and their roots go pretty
deep and back in time. They are also a part of our history.
Miki
Swin...@webtv.net
<<You're Sunshine Patriots. You're what Malcom X describes as the worst
kind of Liberal: One who believes in Integration so long as it's not in
your neighborhood. You are the kind of people who believe in nuclear
energy as long as it's not in your back yard, or conservation so long as
you can still drive a Hummer. See my point?>>
Ouch! Touche'
Only caveat would be to play music in accordance to percentage of
customers attending by style of swing dance. I'm sure the DJ could do
that just as effectively as the judges do percentage of swing content.
There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and
posthumously.
Thomas Sowell
****************************
I should never believe in a God who would not know how to dance.
Nietzche
****************************
Left wing, right wing? I'm for the whole bird.
****************************
Don't do any kinky stunts!
Houdini
****************************
Leave Naturally
SwingingInTheHood
> Hi Ron -- Do you not like the idea of The Open having a separate Lindy
> Room and Lindy DJ? I enjoy dancing WCS to all Shag music, but not to
> Lindy music. When you refer to "real swing", I think of music for
> Lindy, East Coast Swing, Jitterbug and possibly Hand Dancing. I love
> Count Basie, Glenn Miller, Louis Prima, Benny Goodman, Harry James,
> Les Brown all the wonderful swing music of yesteryear.......but more
> than a touch of "real swing" at a WCS event to which I could not
> dance, would discourage me from returning. There are lots of great
> jazz and blues that are adaptable to WCS and their roots go pretty
> deep and back in time. They are also a part of our history.
>
> Miki
So, now we're talking Jim Crow Swing? Separate But Equal? All I'm
saying is that I don't think it would hurt to play some real swing
music at the US Open during the social dancing (and not just during
the Awards ceremonies). I figure if you really like Count Basie and
Glen Miller et al, then you wouldn't mind much listing to one or two
of their songs in an hour of music. Heck, you might even eventually
get up and try to dance to it. Now, wouldn't that be revelation?
I'm saying this should happen, not because I feel a need to impose non-
WCS music on WCS dancers at a WCS event, but because this is the US
Swing Open which purports to embrace all Swing. Separate rooms are
okay, if that's the only way to do it, but I still want to hear some
non-Swing Swing music in the Lindy Room as well. What's good for the
gander should be good for the goose.
-ron
memiki
Hi Ron -- I am not sure from where you are coming when you talk about
"Jim Crow Swing", but the US Open does embrace all swing -- attendees
are given a choice of the music to which they want to dance. My choice
happens to be WCS and there is a place for me to do so -- many West
Coasters participate in Lindy and there is a place for them to do so.
We all seem to get along fine and are happy to mix it up once in
awhile. Methinks most of us want to hear WCS in the WCS room wherein
the DJs play special requests be it Country, Hustle, Salsa or what you
call "real swing" -- but it is the WCS room after all.......there is a
place for the goose and the gander depending on their personal
choices.
BTW it sure sounds as if you have a need to impose non-WCS music on
WCS dancers.....even though you say you do not.
Miki
dav...@aol.com
Ron:
I have no problem with your general point. I have a big problem with
your inflammatory analogies. Let's keep things in perspective, okay?
David Koppelman
SwingingInTheHood
> Ron:
> I have no problem with your general point. I have a big problem with
> your inflammatory analogies. Let's keep things in perspective, okay?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The "inflammatory analogies" are mostly tongue in cheek. However, I'm
quite serious about my point. If it were called the US West Coast
Swing Open, I'd have nothing to say. But, to call it the US Swing
Open, make a lot of noise about Swing diversity, then proceed to tell
me that WCS dancers can't stand to hear Swing music, so we'll play
that music in another room... I'm sorry, but that's whacked.
It's the sort of obtuseness and hypocrisy that brought to (my) mind
the "inflammatory analogies" you mention.
I apologize if anyone is insulted because I used these particular
analogies. They just seemed to illustrate exactly what I meant.
-ron
memiki
Ron --Where is it written that "WCS dancers can't stand to hear Swing
music" and wherever did you get that idea????.......speaking for
myself, as a WCS dancer, I listen to it in my car, on my Bose system
at home, and on my MP3 player.
To whom or what are you referring when you say "it is the sort of
obtuseness and hypocrisy that brought to (my) mind the "inflammatory
analogies"........ Since when does a preference to dancing to the
music of the dance for which one has the most passion and derives the
greatest joy become undesirable and hypocritical and deserving of your
discrimination against those who fall into that category........a
category which BTW includes swing dancers who do not prefer WCS. You
want to sit and listen to "real swing", go to a "real swing" concert,
not to a WCS venue.
So, you think the U.S. Open Swing Dance Championships should change
their name so you can listen to "real swing" in the WCS room? I
personally know they have gone out of their way to bring in Hand
Dancers, as well as Shaggers and Lindy. I have not met anyone whether
they be WCS, Shaggers, Hand Dancers, or Lindy Hoppers who feel as if
they have been treated as second-class ciitizens......only you.
To use your word, methinks you are the one who is "whacked".
Miki
Rija Ball
> > -ron
>
> Ron --Where is it written that "WCS dancers can't stand to hear Swing
> music" and wherever did you get that idea????.......speaking for
> myself, as a WCS dancer, I listen to it in my car, on my Bose system
> at home, and on my MP3 player.
>
> To whom or what are you referring when you say "it is the sort of
> obtuseness and hypocrisy that brought to (my) mind the "inflammatory
> analogies"........ Since when does a preference to dancing to the
> music of the dance for which one has the most passion and derives the
> greatest joy become undesirable and hypocritical and deserving of your
> discrimination against those who fall into that category........a
> category which BTW includes swing dancers who do not prefer WCS. You
> want to sit and listen to "real swing", go to a "real swing" concert,
> not to a WCS venue.
>
> So, you think the U.S. Open Swing Dance Championships should change
> their name so you can listen to "real swing" in the WCS room? I
> personally know they have gone out of their way to bring in Hand
> Dancers, as well as Shaggers and Lindy. I have not met anyone whether
> they be WCS, Shaggers, Hand Dancers, or Lindy Hoppers who feel as if
> they have been treated as second-class ciitizens......only you.
>
> To use your word, methinks you are the one who is "whacked".
>
> Miki
Hello
when I read Ron who says:
"But, is there anyone else who noticed the absolute hypocrisy of
making
all that ballyhoo about "We are the 'Swing' World", and then playing
primarily, exclusively, and nothing but West Coast Swing music during
the Social Dance breaks all Sunday day and night? As Norma Miller
herself said, "How can you call this a Swing party with no Count
Basie?"
... I understand he doesn't want exclusively real swing, but just
more.
Is he wrong ?
I think many people will be angry if the event was call "US Open West
Coast Swing" and there was no WCS music anymore
Icono Clast
> Norma Miller herself said, "How can you call this a Swing party with no Count
> Basie?"
Excellent question! Basie isn't the only one who swings but everyone
doesn't consistently swing as hard as he. His drummer, Harold Jones,
lives in Marin County, and has occasional gigs when Tony Benet lets
him come home.
I've often commented to a partner "How about that! Swing music at a
Swing dance!" But I've had some of my best dances to non-Swing music,
a few years ago to "Peel Me A Grape" and recently to "Will You Love Me
Tomorrow?"
___________________________________________________________________
If it doesn't swing, I'm outta here - Fred Astaire
Nicole Frydman
>
> So, you think the U.S. Open Swing Dance Championships should change
> their name so you can listen to "real swing" in the WCS room? I
> personally know they have gone out of their way to bring in Hand
> Dancers, as well as Shaggers and Lindy. I have not met anyone whether
> they be WCS, Shaggers, Hand Dancers, or Lindy Hoppers who feel as if
> they have been treated as second-class ciitizens......only you.
>
> To use your word, methinks you are the one who is "whacked".
>
> Miki
Miki,
For the record, there are MANY dancers of the lindy variety who feel
they have been and are "treated as second-class citizens". Not sure
about the Shagger and Hand Dancers but I suspect the dwindling number
of attendees from both those types of swing might be a good indication
of how much they like the event.
I personally enjoy the US Open, which is why I attend and support it.
But when I try to encourage other lindy hoppers to do so, I get a lot
of feedback that they feel they aren't appreciated or wanted. True or
imagined, that's how they feel. And yet, they come out in droves for
other events that feature WCS. Boston Tea Party pops to my mind. The
attendance ratio of WCS dancers to Lindy Hoppers is about even at that
event.
Anyway, I still enjoy it, but the US Open IS a skewed event. Let's at
least be honest about that.
memiki
Please disregard my first post. For the most part, this is a duplicate
post. I canceled my first one because it was not proofread and full of
typos..Miki
Nicole -- Do you have anything constructive to suggest within the
following guidelines:
1. Change the name of the U.S. Open to U.S. WCS Open......and exclude
the Lindy Hoppers.
2. Change the name of the U.S. Open to U.S. WCS Open......but invite
the Lindy Hoppers -- this will avoid unhappiness caused to any
Lindy Hoppers who feel they are not treated well at what is
supposed to be an all-swing event.
3. Although the Boston Tea Party is a fun event, it is not a N.A.S.D.E
event as is the U.S. Open.
4. Our WCS events are mainly for WCS, but some of them have a Lindy
room and Lindy D.J. Why does this bother you? Is this reciprocal
at Lindy events?
5. What more do you and/or your Lindy Hopper friends need to make you
happy? It is not feasible to put Lindy Hop and WCS in one ballroom
because of the difference in music. It does work for Shag because Shag
music adapts beautifully to WCS; Lindy music does not........you
cannot successfully Lindy Hop to WCS music, nor can WCS work well with
Lindy music. You cannot split the main ballroom music in half and have
50 percent WCS and 50 percent Lindy. It does not
work, for many reasons. You would then have 50 percent of the dancers
happy half of the time, 50 percent unhappy half of the time, and 100
per cent unhappy most of the time.
6. Lindy Hoppers are given the same opportunities to compete along
side of WCS and Lindy
judges are there for them.
7. For your information, there will be a large group of Shaggers at
The Open next year -- I have it straight from my VIP Shag source.
8. You also have the choice to let things stay as they are and
discourage those who are whining
BTW if you can, please explain how you define "skewed" as in your
words "the US Open IS a 'skewed' event".
Miki-
Nicole Frydman
Thanks for your response.
First, and most important, I said I attend because I enjoy the event
as it currently is. I even encourage other lindy dancers to attend as
well.
So please - it sounds like your post suggests I am somehow unhappy -
and I'm not.
I only wanted to respond to your claim that you had never met any
"other" swing dancers who felt like second class citizens. While you
may have not met them, I have. And a lot of them.
Anyway, because I'm happy with the event, I do not have suggestions
for changing it like changing the name or dividing the ballroom.
Those are pretty outlandish suggestions and they are clearly being
made by you in an ill attempt to propose a false dichotomy. It is not
one extreme or the other. Those are not the only options available to
us.
I don't want to change the US Open in any fundamental way. I love
having different kinds of events run in different ways. As for Tea
Party, I do not suggest they are or should be the same. I was merely
pointing out that it is possible to have events with more than one
swing dance that feel more equal. They still have separate rooms,
separate comps, separate judges, pretty much separate everything. And
yet make it work. I was merely saying, it's possible. NASDE or not.
As far as I'm aware, NASDE only regulates how the competitive
divisions need to be run, right? So I'm not sure why that would even
come into the discussion of adding more swing to the social dance time
to begin with, but whatever.
There are small ways to make the "other" dancers feel welcome without
changing the heart of the event. And for the record, I believe the
board and staff have done a great job of already doing some of those
things.
This year they added a fast division. It was a GREAT show of what
Lindy Hop wants its competitions to be and what we are already doing
at our Lindy only events. I hope it continues.
Brother Yusef was another wonderful addition (despite the complaints
by some of the WCS dancers).
I also think adding more swing and blues music - that is WCS danceable
- is another great idea. WCS people can still dance to that music.
And yet it is more familiar to Lindy Hoppers. What a GREAT
compromise! Or are you against compromise altogether?
And for the record, we CAN dance to slow swing and blues, and do all
the time in our own room and at our own events. In fact, often I see
WCS dancers in our room dancing to that very same music. So it IS
possible. Whether you want to believe it or not isn't really the
issue. It happens. There is such a thing as "cross over music". So
why purposely avoid playing that music at an event that is supposed to
be the US OPEN Swing Dance Championships. They already allow all
kinds of swing in the classic and showcase divisions - another great
way of bringing us together, btw. Why shouldn't we encourage all the
dances to be on the same floor. At least during the main hours.
Perhaps afterhours the room should be more divided.
You do know that there is no lindy room during the main events,
right? So there isn't anywhere for us to go before about 12midnight.
How fair is that?
As far as "skewed" I mean it's primarily a West Coast Swing event. In
numbers of attendees, and the type of swing danced by most of the
people who attend. That's not to say that's a bad thing or should be
changed. AGAIN, I don't want the heart of the US Open to change. I
was merely asking that we discuss whatever we discuss using what is
factually true. The US Open is currently mostly a West Coast Swing
event and skews its music and programming to that audience.
From that basis we can talk about the issue of adding more swing and
blues music. That's all I meant.
Thanks for hearing me out (or reading me out, rather). ;-)
Nicole
dav...@aol.com
On this, we agree completely! I must admit, though, I'm for more
blues and traditional music in the general wcs mix anyway:)
>
> And for the record, we CAN dance to slow swing and blues, and do all
> the time in our own room and at our own events. �In fact, often I see
> WCS dancers in our room dancing to that very same music. �So it IS
> possible. �Whether you want to believe it or not isn't really the
> issue. �It happens. �There is such a thing as "cross over music". �So
> why purposely avoid playing that music at an event that is supposed to
> be the US OPEN Swing Dance Championships. �They already allow all
> kinds of swing in the classic and showcase divisions - another great
> way of bringing us together, btw. �Why shouldn't we encourage all the
> dances to be on the same floor. �At least during the main hours.
> Perhaps afterhours the room should be more divided.
>
> You do know that there is no lindy room during the main events,
> right? �So there isn't anywhere for us to go before about 12midnight.
> How fair is that?
There isn't very much social dancing then anyway, just what gets
sqeezed between the competitions. A bit more blues as discussed
above would help solve this problem.
>
> As far as "skewed" I mean it's primarily a West Coast Swing event. �In
> numbers of attendees, and the type of swing danced by most of the
> people who attend. �That's not to say that's a bad thing or should be
> changed. �AGAIN, I don't want the heart of the US Open to change. �I
> was merely asking that we discuss whatever we discuss using what is
> factually true. �The US Open is currently mostly a West Coast Swing
> event and skews its music and programming to that audience.
>
Yes, and here you've answered your own question to some extent- don't
most business cater to their best customers, and isn't that simply
what the Open is doing?
> From that basis we can talk about the issue of adding more swing and
> blues music. �That's all I meant.
>
> Thanks for hearing me out (or reading me out, rather). �;-)
>
> Nicole
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. I hope
the Open BOD gets to read it.
David Koppelman
memiki
Hi Nicole -- thank you for your very well-written post. I apologize if
my post to which you replied reflected a bad attitude......I am overly
sensitive and protective when it comes to anything related to WCS that
has even a touch of negativity. Let's see if I can do better this time
and engage in a more worthy exchange of words.
> First, and most important, I said I attend because I enjoy the event
> as it currently is. I even encourage other lindy dancers to attend as
> well.
Yes, you did......but I felt it was a statement written to counteract
or cushion your criticism. However, after I posted, I reread your post
and thought I might have misinterpreted.
> So please - it sounds like your post suggests I am somehow unhappy -
> and I'm not. I only wanted to respond to your claim that you had never met any
> "other" swing dancers who felt like second class citizens. While you
> may have not met them, I have. And a lot of them.
I know and have danced with Lindy Hoppers throughout the country --
some who were in the process of crossing over to WCS; some who were
already "hooked"; and some who were not into WCS; but have never
thought to ask any of them how they felt at our events..
Do the Lindy rooms have good floors?
> Anyway, because I'm happy with the event, I do not have suggestions
> for changing it like changing the name or dividing the ballroom.
> Those are pretty outlandish suggestions and they are clearly being
> made by you in an ill attempt to propose a false dichotomy. It is not
> one extreme or the other. Those are not the only options available to
> us.
>
> I don't want to change the US Open in any fundamental way. I love
> having different kinds of events run in different ways. As for Tea
> Party, I do not suggest they are or should be the same. I was merely
> pointing out that it is possible to have events with more than one
> swing dance that feel more equal. They still have separate rooms,
> separate comps, separate judges, pretty much separate everything. And
> yet make it work. I was merely saying, it's possible. NASDE or not.
> As far as I'm aware, NASDE only regulates how the competitive
> divisions need to be run, right? So I'm not sure why that would even
> come into the discussion of adding more swing to the social dance time
> to begin with, but whatever.
Yes, NASDE regulates the competitive divisions, and NASDE events give
points to the competitors and NASDE presents cash awards.. I think
there are those who prefer NASDE events and those who prefer non-NASDE
events and those to whom it does not matter.
http://www.nasde.com/NASDErules.php3.
http://www.nasde.com/NASDEpoints.php3
> There are small ways to make the "other" dancers feel welcome without
> changing the heart of the event. And for the record, I believe the
> board and staff have done a great job of already doing some of those
> things.
> This year they added a fast division. It was a GREAT show of what
> Lindy Hop wants its competitions to be and what we are already doing
> at our Lindy only events. I hope it continues.
> Brother Yusef was another wonderful addition (despite the complaints
> by some of the WCS dancers).
I, too, enjoy listening and dancing to Brother Yusef and as I
mentioned in a previous post, I had two wonderful dances to his Blues
with two highly talented Shaggers, who are also highly talented WCS-
ers. Dancing to Brother Yusef with both of them was a joy!
> I also think adding more swing and blues music - that is WCS danceable
> - is another great idea. WCS people can still dance to that music.
> And yet it is more familiar to Lindy Hoppers. What a GREAT
> compromise! Or are you against compromise altogether?
I am not sure how successful a compromise would be and if compromise
should be with the music. You want compromise at a time when we want
to keep WCS traditional and recognizable as WCS.........and at the same
time, creative and fun.
Your suggestion of adding more blues has me confused. We have plenty
of blues. At events, I usually don't begin to dance until midnight or
after, and I stay in the ballroom until closing most of the time. At
local venues, of course, that is not the case. Late-night or
otherwise, blues is very big in WCS, and I think most of us have blues
at the top of our list. My personal choice is late-night music, which
includes blues. Depending on the DJ and the hour and energy in the
ballroom, DJs play a mix of contemporary, funk, rock, hip hop........
and blues.
Re your suggestion of adding more swing music -- I dance to swing and
smooth jazz music, but not all swing is WCS-able......and not all jazz
is either. If it is WCS-able that suits me fine; if it is not, then I
would walk away from it. For social dancing I, personally, do not like
"typical" WCS music unless it has been jazzed up and swings. Somehow,
when I think of music for Lindy Hoppers, I don't think Blues. Perhaps
Lindy Hoppers are getting away from "typical", too.
> And for the record, we CAN dance to slow swing and blues, and do all
> the time in our own room and at our own events. In fact, often I see
> WCS dancers in our room dancing to that very same music. So it IS
> possible. Whether you want to believe it or not isn't really the
> issue. It happens. There is such a thing as "cross over music". So
> why purposely avoid playing that music at an event that is supposed to
> be the US OPEN Swing Dance Championships. They already allow all
> kinds of swing in the classic and showcase divisions - another great
> way of bringing us together, btw. Why shouldn't we encourage all the
> dances to be on the same floor. At least during the main hours.
> Perhaps afterhours the room should be more divided.
.
It has been my experience at WCS dance events that when the DJ plays
too many "one size fits all" music for WCS and Lindy Hop, the results
are not positive, and the lobby outside the ballroom becomes crowded.
Most WCS dancers have a preference to the type of music to which they
like to dance and, therefore, favor the DJ who plays it. This means
that there are times when dancers will sit out long periods of time
depending on the music, so music becomes very precious and timeouts a
negative -- I am not aware when I hear cross-over music......only that
if it grabs me and pulls me on the floor, it's fine with me as long as
it is not "jitterbug" and what I think of as "typical" Lindy Hop music
which causes us to remain in our seats and to say, "that's Lindy
music"........
> You do know that there is no lindy room during the main events,
> right? So there isn't anywhere for us to go before about 12midnight.
> How fair is that?
By main events, I take it that you mean the competitions. I did not
know there was no Lindy room available at these times.......and it
seems an easy thing to correct if it is a negative to the Lindy
Hoppers. OTOH, at most WCS events I attend there is no place to WCS
during the competitions either, with the exception of the Grand
Nationals in Atlanta where they have the main ballroom and a smaller
room that is always available to dance if a person does not want to
watch the comps. In Atlanta, the Shag and WCS blend beautifully. There
may be other events of which I am not aware who keep the Lindy Room
going during the competitions.
>
> As far as "skewed" I mean it's primarily a West Coast Swing event. In
> numbers of attendees, and the type of swing danced by most of the
> people who attend. That's not to say that's a bad thing or should be
> changed. AGAIN, I don't want the heart of the US Open to change. I
> was merely asking that we discuss whatever we discuss using what is
> factually true. The US Open is currently mostly a West Coast Swing
> event and skews its music and programming to that audience.
> From that basis we can talk about the issue of adding more swing and
> blues music. That's all I meant.
>
> Thanks for hearing me out (or reading me out, rather). ;-)
It was my pleasure, Nicole.
Miki
Icono Clast
> I'm for more blues and traditional music in the general wcs mix anyway:)
Me, too. That is not to say I don't enjoy, and dance to, some top
forty stuff.
> most business cater to their best customers, and isn't that simply
> what the Open is doing?
It is. The Lindy Hoppers are few in number partly because of it. Were
they greater in number, would the rest of us be fewer?
--
___________________________________________________________________
A dancing San Franciscan who sometimes just listens.
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
http://geocities.com/touringsfo/ <----<->----> IClast at GMail com
memiki
>
> - Show quoted text -
ADDENDUM
Jay Byams "Peolple Who Dance" NYDC in Palm Springs successfully
combines WCS and Salsa in two separate ballrooms, and he does it
without compromising WCS music. In the past, the WCS ballroom has been
larger, but I think he advertises them as separate camps. Because of
their attendance, I am sure the Salsa group does not feel as if they
are treated as second-class citizens, and I know the WCS group does
not. I only attend NYDC, but I assume the same goes for his summer
event. Dancers have the choice to dance WCS in the WCS ballroom and/or
Salsa in the Salsa ballroom. The WCS DJ does not need to please the
Salsa dancers, unless there is a request; the Salsa DJ does not need
to please the WCS dancers.
Of course, the names of his events are not under the umbrella of
"Swing" as is The Open; and WCS and Salsa are not in the same family
as is WCS and Lindy ........but still another example of two venues
successfully "getting along" without compromising music...........
WCS DJs have enough to do trying to please our dancers at events
without playing "one-size-fits-all" music. JMO
Miki
SwingingInTheHood
thinking, maybe the "inflammatory analogies" I used were a bit over
the top.
And, maybe it's just Miki, dear Miki, who by her own admission is
"sensitive" when it comes to things WCS.
But, to me, this unwillingness to hear *anything but* WCS music (and
NO real Swing music) at an event promoted as a Swing event is not only
narrow-minded, but hypocritical.
I never suggested anything like 50/50. I simply suggested, or meant
to suggest, a small dose of Swing intermingled in all that real cool,
real hip, real now WCS music. But, then, I must also profess to
having a bias towards diversity in music. I feel the music should
have some variance in all venues: Salsa, Hustle, Tango, Lindy, WCS,
etc... I mean, even at a Viennese Waltz ball, you'll hear Polka and
Schottisches.
I remember one night there was a near riot at the Hacienda because
Annie had the nerve to play 3 (count-em, three) Hustle songs (two of
which were WCS-danceble). It wasn't that WCS couldn't be danced to
any of them, it was just that they were introduced as, gasp, HUSTLE
songs!
Am I the only person to whom this appears a bit silly and immature?
That's like the real good dancers who refuse to dance with beginners
or even intermediates because they can't do their tricks or just won't
make them look as good. 3 minutes out of their lives is just too
much. This from middle-aged men and women trying very hard to look
cool.
But, before I get too far off subject, I am not suggesting Hustle or
Tango or Salsa or Cha Cha or Waltz or Rumba or even Chicago Style Step
be played at the US Open during social dancing. I'm just suggesting a
little Swing thrown into the social dances every now and then.
All we are saying, is give Swing a chance.
Oh, and I do acknowledge that the US Open has gone to great lengths to
include other dances in the competions and it's programs. And I hope
I made the point in my first post that this isn't a criticism, just a
recommendation that I hope someone acts upon next year.
-ron
memiki
<SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote:
> I was hoping to hear something that would change my mind. I was
> thinking, maybe the "inflammatory analogies" I used were a bit over
> the top.
They were disgusting........
>
> And, maybe it's just Miki, dear Miki, who by her own admission is
> "sensitive" when it comes to things WCS.
Ron -- I used to have a lot of respect for you and your
intellect........
Miki
Peter D
> On Nov 28, 11:58 pm, davk...@aol.com wrote:
>> Ron:
>> I have no problem with your general point. I have a big problem with
>> your inflammatory analogies. Let's keep things in perspective, okay?
> The "inflammatory analogies" are mostly tongue in cheek.
And foolish. Designed to axe grind and create way more heat than light!
Comparing a rather obvious request/desire with the US experience with
segregation and forced integration was unnecessary and meritless. It didn't
help that you misquoted/rephrased the points made the better to misinform
and mischaracterise others. I don't think you realise that you're just not
helping your cause.
Ed Jay
>I was hoping to hear something that would change my mind. I was
>thinking, maybe the "inflammatory analogies" I used were a bit over
>the top.
They were much more than over the top -- they were offensive.
>
>And, maybe it's just Miki, dear Miki, who by her own admission is
>"sensitive" when it comes to things WCS.
Your racially inspired comments served to amplify everyone's sensitivity and
sensibility.
>
>But, to me, this unwillingness to hear *anything but* WCS music (and
>NO real Swing music) at an event promoted as a Swing event is not only
>narrow-minded, but hypocritical.
>
I think it's time for a little history lesson.
Before it was purchased from the Bridges, the US Open was primarily a WCS
event. The only significant departure was Shag, but for a long time that was
only one couple. Lindy was virtually unheard of, except for a few couples.
After the purchase, the Open decided that as it was billed as a Swing event,
a proactive attempt was initiated to bring forms of Swing other than WCS to
the Open. (Bravo!)
One of the problems facing the promoters is the music mix for Lindy versus
the other Swing styles. Shag, Hand Dancing and WCS can all be danced to the
same music. Not so for typical and traditional Lindy. How does an event
satisfy the music demands of the [few] Lindy dancers, without impacting the
experience of the other Swing dancers?
The US Open, to its great credit, and despite being unprofitable at the
time, invested money to set up a special Lindy room featuring the music
favored by the Lindy dancers. In fact, the owners went as far as hiring a
live band in its attempt to pander to the Lindy gang. Kudos to the Open.
It was not the intent of the Open to establish a separate-but-equal
doctrine. It was done to make the Lindy gang happy, not to segregate them. I
don't recall any rules that limited the Lindy gang from accessing the main
ballroom.
This year, the Open employed Brother Yusef in yet another attempt to satisfy
all dance preferences in attendance. Yusef alternated between 115 BPM tempo
for WCS, etc., dancers, and a significantly faster tempo for the Lindy
aficionados. What was the outcome? The WCS dancers complained that much of
his music was too fast, and the Lindy dancers ignored that he was playing
music best suited to Lindy. If ever there was a case of 'you can't please
all the people all the time,' this was it.
It seems to me that if the music mix included some "real Swing music" in
proportion to the dance style populations present, Lindy folks would get a
suitable song about once in every ten plays. I'm willing to bet that some
would bitch, because there wasn't enough Lindy music. I'm also willing to
bet that with the number of Lindy people in attendance, each time a "Swing"
song is played, the dance floor would empty, except for a handful of
dancers. Such a scenario would be counter to the desires of all concerned.
The US Open should be applauded for its efforts at trying to make everyone
happy. Pity that a _small_ number find the Open's methods at odds with their
desires. Jim Crow, indeed! :-((
All good things take time to develop and mature. Complaining about the slow
pace and labeling those who are trying their best to satisfy as many as they
can as narrow-minded and hypocritical is, well, narrow-minded and
hypocritical.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
Jon Leech
> But, to me, this unwillingness to hear *anything but* WCS music (and
> NO real Swing music) at an event promoted as a Swing event is not only
> narrow-minded, but hypocritical.
>
> Am I the only person to whom this appears a bit silly and immature?
> That's like the real good dancers who refuse to dance with beginners
> or even intermediates because they can't do their tricks or just won't
> make them look as good. 3 minutes out of their lives is just too
> much. This from middle-aged men and women trying very hard to look
> cool.
Well, let's be real: playing music at tempos that were normal 15
years ago comes close to clearing the floor of WCS dancers these days.
Whether that's because people are 15 years older and can't keep up,
or because most people no longer know how to dance that fast and
stay connected, or simply because people are out of practice, likely
varies by individual.
It would be nice to get more music in a tempo range that *could*
overlap with Lindy dancers, whether it's stylistically appropriate to
both dances or not, but that will require a longterm change analogous
to the one that brought tempos down so much, and people will have to
learn some new technique and/or be prepared to actually break a sweat
while dancing.
Faster tempos would IMO cut down a lot on the "wiggling around
while standing at end-of-slot" that happens too often, so there is that
to be said for them as well.
Jon
__@/
dav...@aol.com
> � � �Well, let's be real: playing music at tempos that were normal 15
> years ago comes close to clearing the floor of WCS dancers these days.
> Whether that's because people are 15 years older and can't keep up,
> or because most people no longer know how to dance that fast and
> stay connected, or simply because people are out of practice, likely
> varies by individual.
And of course, those are the only possible
reasons............lol....................
David Koppelman
Nicole Frydman
Don't have a ton of time so here are just a few points...
1) When I say there is no Lindy room during the "main events" I mean
that from the time the day starts (usually midday or afternoon) until
about 12midnight there is absolutely no "lindy" music played
anywhere. And yet, there are often breaks in the presentations and
competitions, some as long as a half hour or 45 minutes where WCS
music is played for social dancing. So if I'm in the ballroom
watching the programming anytime during those 10-12 hours, and there
is an extended break (of which there are many), I can choose to dance
to WCS music or not dance at all. Is it so awful to ask that more
"cross over" type music be played during this time frame? I don't
even need to hear fast lindy music. Simply slow swing and blues is
fine. We dance slow. We just tend to interpret what we hear
differently than WCS dancers. But then again, so do shaggers and hand
dancers and it's all good there. We do struggle dancing to pop music
as there tends to be no swung triplets in the rhythm and thats
integral to lindy. But slow swing, blues, funk, soul, and R&B can all
work for Lindy Hoppers. You may not have known that because in our
competitions we tend to display the fast, high flying stuff. But pop
into the Lindy Room sometime and you'd be surprised.
2) As for US Open History, just watch some old video and you'll see
that while it might not have been Lindy like we know it now, there was
PLENTY of fast swing and Dean Collins type smooth swing with lots of
lindy type influences. That, and there was A LOT of swung rhythm
music. I'd argue, as would many WCS old timers, that non-swung rhythm
music is a fairly new convention. And not a bad one by any means!
Just please don't tell me that the US Open didn't feature swing and
blues music prominently in its history (and way more than recently)
because you'd be wrong.
3) I'm glad to hear so many people on this thread enjoy slow swing and
blues music. But if I'm to believe several prominent WCS teachers,
pros, and DJs, it's a dying trend that some people are working hard to
keep on life support. And if it was getting major play at events, I
don't think those pros would be complaining the way they are and I
don't think Lindy Hoppers would feel as much like strangers in a
strange land while in the main ballroom of certain events.
4) I'd like to say again how appreciative I am of the hard work the US
Open organizers do to try to bring all types of swing together. It's
why I continue to support the event (in addition to just plain
enjoying it). They have tried a lot of things over the years to bring
in the lindy community and the lindy hoppers haven't always responded
positively when they probably should have. I do recognize that and
wish it were different. All I want is more great events presenting
Lindy an opportunity to shine. And the US Open is definitely trying
to do that! So thanks!
*One note about Brother Yusef - a lot of the lindy hoppers didn't know
he would be playing "lindy friendly" music - especially since the main
ballroom isn't known for playing lindy music at all during the weekend
except for maybe 2 songs right before a lindy comp. And the lindy
room had just been opened for the first time all day. And the winners
of the strictly lindy all disappeared right after awards to plan for
the Strictly challenge so they weren't around to be dancing. It
probably sounds like excuses, but really I just think all those
factors put together meant fewer lindy hoppers in the main room. I
was in there, dancing my booty off, right up front, and I had a blast!
Ok I need to get back to work now. Maybe more later. This is a good
discussion and I'm enjoying the chance to talk this all out!
Nicole
memiki
On Dec 6, 2:26 pm, Nicole Frydman <frydmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow! A lot of development since last I posted!
>
> Don't have a ton of time so here are just a few points...
>
> 1) When I say there is no Lindy room during the "main events" I mean
> that from the time the day starts (usually midday or afternoon) until
> about 12midnight there is absolutely no "lindy" music played
> anywhere. And yet, there are often breaks in the presentations and
> competitions, some as long as a half hour or 45 minutes where WCS
> music is played for social dancing. So if I'm in the ballroom
> watching the programming anytime during those 10-12 hours, and there
> is an extended break (of which there are many), I can choose to dance
> to WCS music or not dance at all. Is it so awful to ask that more
> "cross over" type music be played during this time frame? I don't
> even need to hear fast lindy music. Simply slow swing and blues is
> fine. We dance slow. We just tend to interpret what we hear
> differently than WCS dancers. But then again, so do shaggers and hand
> dancers and it's all good there. We do struggle dancing to pop music
> as there tends to be no swung triplets in the rhythm and thats
> integral to lindy. But slow swing, blues, funk, soul, and R&B can all
> work for Lindy Hoppers. You may not have known that because in our
> competitions we tend to display the fast, high flying stuff. But pop
> into the Lindy Room sometime and you'd be surprised.
I did not know there was no Lindy Room until midnight. Could it be
because there are not enough Lindy dancers to make it feasible to open
during the day and evening? Has it always been that way? I thought in
the past there was a Lindy Room that did not stay open after 1:00 AM
or as late as our main ballroom.......... so when it closed the Lindy
Hoppers migrated into the WCS ballroom. Perhaps, I am thinking of
another event.
> 3) I'm glad to hear so many people on this thread enjoy slow swing and
> blues music. But if I'm to believe several prominent WCS teachers,
> pros, and DJs, it's a dying trend that some people are working hard to
> keep on life support. ...........................
I have no idea who would be killing slow swing and blues or who you
consider "prominent WCS teachers".......... Have you heard what the
replacement music would be?
Here is a playlist I recently received from a generous and giving
dancer -- there is not one track to which I do not enjoy dancing WCS.
Are any of these Lindy-able?:
Way You Walk, Papa Fritas; It Only Hurts When I Cry, Raul Maio; Give
It Back, Gaelle; I Don't Want Nobody, Ike Turner; Down Home Blues,
Brother Yusef; Big Blond and Beautiful, Queen Latifah; Mollena, James
Hunter; Say It Right, Nelly Furtado; Best Ain't Good Enough, Jon
Cleary; How Many More Years, Dion; Sexy Love, Ne Yo; I'm Looking For a
Miracle, Phantom Blues Band; Killing Me Softly, Walter Beasley; People
Gonna Talk, James Hunter; Magnolia, Ozamatli; Such a Night, Donavon
Frankenreiter; She Dat Pretty, Stevan Seagal; That Beat, Amy LaVere;
Planes And Satellites, Sonia Dada;
> *One note about Brother Yusef - a lot of the lindy hoppers didn't know
> he would be playing "lindy friendly" music - especially since the main
> ballroom isn't known for playing lindy music at all during the weekend
> except for maybe 2 songs right before a lindy comp. And the lindy
> room had just been opened for the first time all day. And the winners
> of the strictly lindy all disappeared right after awards to plan for
> the Strictly challenge so they weren't around to be dancing. It
> probably sounds like excuses, but really I just think all those
> factors put together meant fewer lindy hoppers in the main room. I
> was in there, dancing my booty off, right up front, and I had a blast!
I did not know he would be playing either and came into the ballroom
after he started. It is quite possible I was not in the ballroom when
his appearance was announced.
I sincerely believe the solution is not to have WCS and Lindy in one
ballroom with "one-size-fits-all" music interjected here and there. I
feel if there are enough full-weekend Lindy ticket holders in
attendance to make it worthwhile, there should be a Lindy Room open to
accommodate them other than after midnight. Not everyone is like me
who begins dancing after midnight.
Miki
memiki
> into the Lindy Room sometime and you'd be surprised.
>
> 2) As for US Open History, just watch some old video and you'll see
> that while it might not have been Lindy like we know it now, there was
> PLENTY of fast swing and Dean Collins type smooth swing with lots of
> lindy type influences. That, and there was A LOT of swung rhythm
> music. I'd argue, as would many WCS old timers, that non-swung rhythm
> music is a fairly new convention. And not a bad one by any means!
> Just please don't tell me that the US Open didn't feature swing and
> blues music prominently in its history (and way more than recently)
> because you'd be wrong.
>
Nicole -- Like everything else, WCS has evolved since the days to
which you refer.........everything had to begin
somewhere...........take a look at West Coast Swing history according
to Sonny Watson, 2007 inductee into the Swing Dance Hall of Fame of
which Dean Collins was the first inductee in 1989:
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm.
WCS and Lindy -- same tree; different branches.
Miki
Miki
dav...@aol.com
>
> Here is a playlist I recently received from a generous and giving
> dancer -- there is not one track to which I do not enjoy dancing WCS.
> Are any of these Lindy-able?:
>
> Way You Walk, Papa Fritas; It Only Hurts When I Cry, Raul Maio; Give
> It Back, Gaelle; I Don't Want Nobody, Ike Turner; Down Home Blues,
> Brother Yusef; Big Blond and Beautiful, Queen Latifah; Mollena, James
> Hunter; Say It Right, Nelly Furtado; Best Ain't Good Enough, Jon
> Cleary; How Many More Years, Dion; Sexy Love, Ne Yo; I'm Looking For a
> Miracle, Phantom Blues Band; Killing Me Softly, Walter Beasley; People
> Gonna Talk, James Hunter; Magnolia, Ozamatli; Such a Night, Donavon
> Frankenreiter; She Dat Pretty, Stevan Seagal; That Beat, Amy LaVere;
> Planes And Satellites, Sonia Dada;
>
Not many crossovers there, Miki- maybe the Raul Malo song and the one
by Phantom Blues Band. Here's the kind of music I'd play for a
crossover audience:
First Floor Girl, Love Dogs
Just The Kind of Man I Am, Mike Morgan
Waking Up Slow- Kelly Hunt
Bakersfield Blues- Brother Yusef
Baby You Got What It Takes- Van Morrison and Linda Gail Lewis
Fine Brown Frame- Lou Rawls and Diana Reeves
Hey Bartender- Floyd Dixon
Sadie- Son Seals
That kind of thing.
David Koppelman
memiki
Thanks, David -- My WCS music tastes are not limited to the list I
submitted, but it was sitting on my desk and I do enjoy dancing to
each and every track.
I am not familiar with all the titles you listed, but I have probably
danced to them. I am familiar with "Fine Brown Frame" and the Rawls
and Reeves arrangement is superior to the one used in my beginner WCS
classes many moons ago -- however, and please forgive, that kind of
song, the old version in particular, is what I am referring to when I
say I don't like dancing to typical WCS music......but then being the
DJ you are, you probably already know that as well or better than I
do :)
Too many WCS/Lindy crossovers played in the evening and late-night at
a WCS event that do not lend themselves to WCS and/or make me feel I
just gotta get up and dance, and I will join the group out in the
lobby and most likely not return the next year. I cannot recall having
been in an event ballroom that had many such crossovers other than
some Lindy just before Lindy competitions. I am not considering Latin,
Fox Trot, Salsa, Country Two-Step and special requests as crossovers.
Miki
Nicole Frydman
Don't really have a lot of time to respond but I wanted to post to say
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. I think we're
saying the same thing - sorta. I know the history of WCS.
I was responding to someone who said the event started as a WCS event
and barely had any lindy or swing music until the new owners took
over. And while that may be true of recent history, my point was that
when the Open began there was plenty of swing music and dancing that
looked a lot more like lindy than what some WCS is now. Just look at
an old Mary Ann and Lance routine if you're not sure.
Anyway, I was just trying to point out that the Open has a longer
history of swing and blues music than it does of modern WCS music.
What's played today really is a modern convention. And if you've only
been dancing swing in the last 5-10 years you might not know that.
WCS is a heckuva lot older than 5-10 years though and most of its
history involved swing and blues music whether it does today or not.
So, for me, the argument that it's primarily a WCS event doesn't
automatically mean you can't play more swing and blues (the slow kind
anyway) in the main ballroom. In fact, in order to honor where the
dance comes from while still encouraging growth and development, it
seems to me you'd want as much variety as you could get. Not less.
Nicole
Icono Clast
> Well, let's be real: playing music at tempos that were normal 15
> years ago comes close to clearing the floor of WCS dancers these days.
> that fast and stay connected
For many years, for the faster numbers I'd seek younger Followers. In
recent years, however, I've had them complain that the number was "too
fast" and we had to leave the floor. So now I seek older Followers for
the faster numbers. Yes, some numbers are too fast but most that I can
handle (up to about 160 bpm) are fine for the older crowd.
> Faster tempos would IMO cut down a lot on the "wiggling around
> while standing at end-of-slot" that happens too often, so there is that
> to be said for them as well.
"to be said FOR them as well"?!? Not by me!
In fact, at Wednesday's dance, a Follower complained that I wasn't
matching her wiggles. Of course I did my best to please her.
--
___________________________________________________________________
What is dancin' but makin' love set to music playin'? -- Sammy Cahn
memiki
> On Dec 6, 8:48 pm, memiki <mem...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 6, 2:26 pm, Nicole Frydman <frydmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > into the Lindy Room sometime and you'd be surprised.
>
> > > 2) As for US Open History, just watch some old video and you'll see
> > > that while it might not have been Lindy like we know it now, there was
> > > PLENTY of fast swing and Dean Collins type smooth swing with lots of
> > > lindy type influences. That, and there was A LOT of swung rhythm
> > > music. I'd argue, as would many WCS old timers, that non-swung rhythm
> > > music is a fairly new convention. And not a bad one by any means!
> > > Just please don't tell me that the US Open didn't feature swing and
> > > blues music prominently in its history (and way more than recently)
> > > because you'd be wrong.
>
> > Nicole -- Like everything else, WCS has evolved since the days to
> > which you refer.........everything had to begin
> > somewhere...........take a look at West Coast Swing history according
> > to Sonny Watson, 2007 inductee into the Swing Dance Hall of Fame of
> > which Dean Collins was the first inductee in 1989:
>
> >http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm.
>
> > WCS and Lindy -- same tree; different branches.
>
> > Miki
>
>
> Don't really have a lot of time to respond but I wanted to post to say
> I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. I think we're
> saying the same thing - sorta. I know the history of WCS.
> I was responding to someone who said the event started as a WCS event
> and barely had any lindy or swing music until the new owners took
> over. And while that may be true of recent history, my point was that
> when the Open began there was plenty of swing music and dancing that
> looked a lot more like lindy than what some WCS is now. Just look at
> an old Mary Ann and Lance routine if you're not sure.
> Anyway, I was just trying to point out that the Open has a longer
> history of swing and blues music than it does of modern WCS music.
> What's played today really is a modern convention. And if you've only
> been dancing swing in the last 5-10 years you might not know that.
> WCS is a heckuva lot older than 5-10 years though and most of its
> history involved swing and blues music whether it does today or not.
I was saying that in 1983, the first year of The Open, WCS had not
been as clearly defined as such, nor had it evolved or come into its
own yet and found its place among the various forms of its swing
ancestors. I was saying that in 1983, there were probably less WCS
attendees than today and more mixes of Lindy, Jitterbug,,,,and there
were more similarities among them then than now..
> So, for me, the argument that it's primarily a WCS event doesn't
> automatically mean you can't play more swing and blues (the slow kind
> anyway) in the main ballroom. In fact, in order to honor where the
> dance comes from while still encouraging growth and development, it
> seems to me you'd want as much variety as you could get. Not less.
>
To each his/her own, Nicole, and I am speaking only for myself-- I
dance WCS; I do not dance Lindy Hop. When I choose a dance event where
I spend over $800, I choose a WCS event. I do not care what the event
name is......only that it is a WCS event; that the music will be WCS
and there will be enough variety of it to please all the WCS dancers;
and I will dance WCS until my feet no longer respond to messages from
my brain. Don't get me wrong.......I enjoy seeing and dancing with the
Lindy Hoppers.....they are a great crowd....but not so much as to give
away WCS music to them in the evening or late-night.
You mentioned compromise -- how about more of your swing at The Open
during the day, but not in the evening or late-night?
Re honoring the dance for where it came from, I look at it this way:
we honor our parents/ancestors and develop and evolve by the examples
they set forth; but as we develop and grow, we have a life of our
own........and the parents come to visit every now and then ;)
Miki
memiki
>
> - Show quoted text -
ADDENDUM
Nicole -- you have repeatedly mentioned that you do not understand why
we more blues cannot be played........WCS DJs play blues a
lot.....most WCS dancers love dancing to blues......and as I mentioned
in a previous post, blues are part of the WCS history from its
inception.
Miki
memiki
David -- I am still trying to have a meeting of the minds and hearts
and feet with music for the Lindy Hoppers
Michael Buble's latest CD, "Call Me Irresponsible", is eclectic and
has many tracks to which I enjoy dancing WCS......are any of these
crossovers?
The Best Is Yet To Come; It Had Better Be Tonight (Meglio Stasera); Me
and Mrs Jones; Comin' Home Baby duet with Boyz II Men; Call Me
Irresponsible; Wonderful Tonight duet with Ivan Lins; Everything; I've
Got The World On A String; That's Life.
Miki
mc...@pitt.edu
<SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote:
> Everyone makes mistakes. I understand that. I wrote this whole long
> message, and didn't check to see that I spelled "Swing" correctly in
> the title.
Boy, Ron. I had trouble with the way you said most of what you said
there.
However, I really like the way you spelled "Swiing." I thought it
was by far the best part of your post.
I think ther are others taht gree with me on that, so I thought I
woudl mention it. I think much of the swing dance world will not
agree with my other feelings about this.
As a lindy hooper, I get upset at the closed-mindedness that makes
some people people say "you can't lindy to that"
Like "Damn. First they tell me I can't smoke pot, and now they tell me
I can't lindy to WCS music? What's next?".
It frustrates me when I dance with a dancer that is stuck on trivial
stylizations and can't dance to the music because of that. I usually
suspect that these dancers really don't dance *TO* their preferred
music, they just kind of move in rote. (Although I must say, some of
then SEEM to do an excellent job of it.)
I've lindied to Salsa music, to Bach, to Beethoven, to the Beatles,
to Cape Breton Fiddle music, to blues harmonica WHILE I was playing
the harmonica, to Metalica, to the rhythm on an assembly line (worked
great!), and to a trash can rolling down a staircase (not so great).
When the music in in 4- time, it really just takes responding to the
music with your center. Same is true if the "music" is 1-1-1-1-1.
(Although it's that word "just" that is the killer.)
With something like Joan Osborn's "Right-hand Man" it takes a little
ingenuity due to the fact that the music is in 7/8, but once you get
past that, it works fine.
So far, I have not attempted to lindy to the Mahvishnu Orchestra. I
doubt that I will get the opportunity at any swing events.
With no music at all, there is world of possibility.
I've been a more than one event where the DJ puts on some tempo that
would be unusual for lindy and then stopped the music becasue there
were only a few couples that would go for it. I complain when they do
that, when I would probably not complain if they played a short
recording of whale songs.
The people that stop dancing? They puzzle me. Have they no pride? No
honor? No sense of decency?
Now, that tends to be 90% of my fellow dancers and they're my friends
and they sincerely would nto understand what I think about it, so I
don't make a fuss out of it.
But it really does puzzle me. Why would a good lindy hopper (and the
people I'm talking about are better dancers than me, for sure) stop
just because the music is 40 bpm or 300 bpm? There are plenty of ways
to dance to that. I can't even come close to doing a swing out at 300
bpm, but there is a lot more to lindy than swing outs.
I've only done a little bit of WCS, and my impression is that it
might not be as flexible as lindy in this regard, but if someone tells
me they can't WCS to Lindy music, I'm inclined to doubt them.
OK.
All that being said, I would probably find it disconcerting to go to
have swing dance event and have them play NO swing music in the main
part of the event. Particularly if "OPEN" was part of the name of
the event.
Of course, if the music was a sufficient variety, say a few Ragas,
some klezmer, some reggae, some mriba, a fugue or two, some ragtime,
some dixieland, some kagura, plus maybe a few other types of music AND
the people were willing to try to dance to it, it would be a great
experience.
More valuable than any dance lessons that I could imagine.
But I doubt that the people would try to dance to it, since they act
as though even two similar artists such as Guy Lombardi and Jimi
Hendrix are doing wildy disparate things, when they are both just
doing American music..
It is really a shame that we let our dance worlds be so small.
I was thinking of saying "no wonder social dancing is such a small
part of modern life - dance as we do it is SO narrow." Then I
realized how incorrect that is.
I mean, drinking is more popular than dancing. Driving cars is
popular. Even watching TV is more popular than dancing. IMO those
activities are more narrow in their experience than any given subset
of competition ballroom - like someone who only does vienese waltz
has a wider range of experiences doing it tahn someone who sits and
watche TV.
Michael Young
Pittsburgh, PA
robco...@aol.com
the best crossover rooms along with Boston Tea Party. Most of the
Champion level pros both Lindy and West Coast ended up in that room.
If you've ever had a chance to hear Peter Strom play in a crossover
room the man rocks imho. He played such a great mix of R&B, funk &
soul and kept the energy going that it reminded me of the days of
Kenny Wetzel and the Pressbox. There's a few problems today and it
can't be all put on the DJ's. True they do have to play for the crowd
but therein lies the problem. 1) Too many teachers today use only
contemporary music to teach WCS. 2.) They also use very slow music 3)
When they do use blues they also have a tendency to play blues that's
about 90 beats per DAY! There's a lot of uneducated people out there
who only dance to what they know or how they've learned. I've heard
people complain about "Mustang Sally (about 118 BPM) being too fast.
It really wasn't that long ago that we were dancing to things like
"Red Beans" and "Move Across the River" both 140+ and those songs were
brought into the WCS world by Carolina Shaggers. Songs like that were
considered medium to medium fast. Point Blank. A lot of Westies don't
know how to dance fast and controlled, and by fast I don't even mean
slow Lindy speed. Where the DJ's come in is at the conventions . Most
DJ's nowadays develop, whether they mean to or not, a particular
preference or style. Just ask some of the top dancers and they'll
describe a certain DJ as Good Blues - So So Contemporary, Good
Contemporary - Bad Blues, Good Funk, Soul & Motown etc. I know a lot
of people have been hammering about more blues but sometimes the
dancers get put off because some of the DJ' don't understand there is
also such a thing as bad blues. Just because it's blues or jazz or R&B
doesn't mean that it's good. I know that I've just rambled on and that
no answer to the problem has come up, but I do know one thing. If you
have the right DJ a crossover room could have more swingable (if
that's a word) music and more variety than any WCS and Lindy room
combined. Let the flaming begin.
Robert
Icono Clast
> Like "Damn. First they tell me I can't smoke pot
Come to San Francisco.
> I've lindied ... to the rhythm on an assembly line (worked great!)
Shhh! Artie Shaw might hear you!
> I've been a more than one event where the DJ puts on some tempo that
> would be unusual for lindy and then stopped the music becasue there
> were only a few couples that would go for it.
I have t'agree with what the DJ did although I think you're correct,
too.
> The people that stop dancing? They puzzle me. Have they no pride? No
> honor? No sense of decency?
>
> But it really does puzzle me. Why would a good lindy hopper (and the
> people I'm talking about are better dancers than me, for sure) stop
> just because the music is 40 bpm or 300 bpm? There are plenty of ways
> to dance to that. I can't even come close to doing a swing out at 300
But you could, easily, at 150.
> if someone tells me they can't WCS to Lindy music, I'm inclined to doubt them.
Rightly so. It is the tempi, not the music, that make the dif'rence
although there can be problems with the rhythms.
> Of course, if the music was a sufficient variety, say a few Ragas,
> some klezmer, some reggae, some mriba, a fugue or two, some ragtime,
> some dixieland, some kagura, plus maybe a few other types of music AND
> the people were willing to try to dance to it, it would be a great
> experience.
Indeed!
--
___________________________________________________________________
If it doesn't swing, I'm outta here -- Fred Astaire
memiki
> Like "Damn. First they tell me I can't smoke pot, and now they tell me
> I can't lindy to WCS music? What's next?".
> It frustrates me when I dance with a dancer that is stuck on trivial
> stylizations and can't dance to the music because of that. I usually
> suspect that these dancers really don't dance *TO* their preferred
> music, they just kind of move in rote. (Although I must say, some of
> then SEEM to do an excellent job of it.)
>
> I've lindied to Salsa music, to Bach, to Beethoven, to the Beatles,
> to Cape Breton Fiddle music, to blues harmonica WHILE I was playing
> the harmonica, to Metalica, to the rhythm on an assembly line (worked
> great!), and to a trash can rolling down a staircase (not so great).
> But it really does puzzle me. Why would a good lindy hopper (and the
> people I'm talking about are better dancers than me, for sure) stop
> just because the music is 40 bpm or 300 bpm? There are plenty of ways
> to dance to that. I can't even come close to doing a swing out at 300
> bpm, but there is a lot more to lindy than swing outs.
>
> I've only done a little bit of WCS, and my impression is that it
> might not be as flexible as lindy in this regard, but if someone tells
> me they can't WCS to Lindy music, I'm inclined to doubt them.
>
> Of course, if the music was a sufficient variety, say a few Ragas,
> some klezmer, some reggae, some mriba, a fugue or two, some ragtime,
> some dixieland, some kagura, plus maybe a few other types of music AND
> the people were willing to try to dance to it, it would be a great
> experience.
>
>
> But I doubt that the people would try to dance to it, since they act
> as though even two similar artists such as Guy Lombardi and Jimi
> Hendrix are doing wildy disparate things, when they are both just
> doing American music..
>
> It is really a shame that we let our dance worlds be so small.
>
> I was thinking of saying "no wonder social dancing is such a small
> part of modern life - dance as we do it is SO narrow." Then I
> realized how incorrect that is.
> if someone tells me they can't WCS to Lindy music, I'm inclined to
doubt them.
Michael -- Again, speaking for myself, I, too, can dance WCS to most
any music and any situation, as can most dancers who have
musicality,.whether it be slow or fast.....I can also WCS to a speech
being delivered by the President and a loud ticking clock ;) Having
said that, the problem is that there comes a time when the dance is no
longer WCS.
Miki
SwingingInTheHood
way I felt about the lack of real Swing music at the US Swing Open,
except during the show and awards ceremony, this what I wrote:
"You're Sunshine Patriots. You're what Malcom X describes as the
worst
kind of Liberal: One who believes in Integration so long as it's not
in your neighborhood. You are the kind of people who believe in
nuclear energy as long as it's not in your back yard, or conservation
so long as you can still drive a Hummer."
This is what came to my mind when trying to describe what I (that's
me, and I'm entitled to my opinion, right or wrong) felt was a sort of
hypocrisy being excercised that evening.
Yes, I meant to be provocative, but in a humorous kind of off the
wall, silly kind of way. Apparently, nobody got the joke. For that,
I'm sorry.
I don't really have any cause other than to point out that there
should be more Swing music played during the social dances at the US
Swing Open. I only went because Norma Miller was there, and I
thought that to be a good thing. I, and all of the Swing dancers I
know and spoke to, were amazed that there was no Swing music played
during the social dance breaks on Sunday.
I spoke to several people at length about this, making the same points
I did here. I've met, and respect and like several people associated
with the US Open, including the Martins. I've talked to these people.
I *know* they want only to make this event the best possible. I have
admired Roy Royston, "The Voice of the Open", for many years. I
learned my first WCS steps from him, as well as how to keep my
instruction lighthearted and fun. What I wrote here was never
intended to be any sort of criticism of their effort and those of all
the people who make this happen every year. Go back and read the
first message of this thread.
What I meant to do was point out something I felt should be addressed
for next year. And, I went about it in a rather colorful and, what I
believed to be, humorous way. Ooops! My bad.
No one is more surprised than me that this thread has gone on as long
as it has!
-ron
On Dec 6, 7:49 am, "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote:
> "SwingingInTheHood" <SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com>
SwingingInTheHood
>
> Your racially inspired comments served to amplify everyone's sensitivity and
> sensibility.
>
Funny you should say that. My comments were designed to speak to
attitudes, not race.
> It seems to me that if the music mix included some "real Swing music" in
> proportion to the dance style populations present, Lindy folks would get a
> suitable song about once in every ten plays. I'm willing to bet that some
> would bitch, because there wasn't enough Lindy music. I'm also willing to
> bet that with the number of Lindy people in attendance, each time a "Swing"
> song is played, the dance floor would empty, except for a handful of
> dancers. Such a scenario would be counter to the desires of all concerned.
>
Perhaps. My point is: Let's try it and see? If it doesn't work,
fine, I'm not just wrong in my choice of analogies, but in my overall
point as well. I've been wrong before. Will be again.
> The US Open should be applauded for its efforts at trying to make everyone
> happy. Pity that a _small_ number find the Open's methods at odds with their
> desires. Jim Crow, indeed! :-((
>
Jim Crow: Separate but equal. First thing came to my mind when someone
said: Let's put the Lindy Hoppers in a separate room. I think the
effort should be towards more intermixing of the two. Yeah, I know,
you don't agree.
> All good things take time to develop and mature. Complaining about the slow
> pace and labeling those who are trying their best to satisfy as many as they
> can as narrow-minded and hypocritical is, well, narrow-minded and
> hypocritical.
I'm going to take this opportunity to repeat that I said, from the
beginning, this was not meant to be a criticism, but to point out
something that should be addressed. I said it to the people I met at
the US Swing Open, and I decided to repeat it here.
SwingingInTheHood
> "SwingingInTheHood" <SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com>
>
> >> Ron:
> >> I have no problem with your general point. I have a big problem with
> >> your inflammatory analogies. Let's keep things in perspective, okay?
> > The "inflammatory analogies" are mostly tongue in cheek.
>
> And foolish. Designed to axe grind and create way more heat than light!
No more than your response is. In fact, less.
> Comparing a rather obvious request/desire with the US experience with
> segregation and forced integration was unnecessary and meritless.
It was meant to be cute play on words. Get over it.
It didn't
> help that you misquoted/rephrased the points made the better to misinform
> and mischaracterise others. I don't think you realise that you're just not
> helping your cause.
The other, greater American experience has to do with democracy and
freedom of speech. We are both free to excerise those rights. I in
my way, and you in yours.
So, I'll say it again:
To sit there and applaud Norma Miller and say, "Gee, it's nice that
their recognizing the the true roots of Swing", then not play any
music Ms. Miller would recognize as Swing during the social dances
*while she is there* is, in my opinion, hypocritical. To say that, at
the US Swing Open, you don't want to hear any music other than
identifiable WCS music during the social dances is, in my opinion,
bigoted (the term has a far broader context than the one some of you
choose to focus on) and narrow-minded.
Finally, to say that we should put Lindy Hoppers in another room at
the US Swing Open is segregationist. Although, to be honest, I was
just (trying to) being funny here. That's cool -- but, I still think
some Swing music should be played some times during the social dancing
at the US Swing Open. Otherwise, call it the US West Coast Swing
Open.
Sorry some of you are so incensed by the language. I'll try to be
less inflammatory next time.
-ron
p.s.
You are right. I did mischaracterize what Malcom X said: He said
never trust *any* liberal (the Fox) because he will smile at you while
stabbing you in the back. At least with a conservative (the Wolf),
according to Mr. X, you always know where you stand.
Not sure who else I misquoted.
Ed Jay
>On Dec 6, 9:42 am, Ed Jay <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>>
>> Your racially inspired comments served to amplify everyone's sensitivity and
>> sensibility.
>>
>Funny you should say that. My comments were designed to speak to
>attitudes, not race.
I understand, and have no reason to doubt you. That said, you seem to have
triggered a different response than that you intended. Did I mention
sensitivities? ;-)
>
>> It seems to me that if the music mix included some "real Swing music" in
>> proportion to the dance style populations present, Lindy folks would get a
>> suitable song about once in every ten plays. I'm willing to bet that some
>> would bitch, because there wasn't enough Lindy music. I'm also willing to
>> bet that with the number of Lindy people in attendance, each time a "Swing"
>> song is played, the dance floor would empty, except for a handful of
>> dancers. Such a scenario would be counter to the desires of all concerned.
>>
>Perhaps. My point is: Let's try it and see? If it doesn't work,
>fine, I'm not just wrong in my choice of analogies, but in my overall
>point as well. I've been wrong before. Will be again.
If it doesn't work, it could result in lost revenue in subsequent years. Why
should anyone risk capital to satisfy the unnecessary whims of a few
patrons?
>
>> The US Open should be applauded for its efforts at trying to make everyone
>> happy. Pity that a _small_ number find the Open's methods at odds with their
>> desires. Jim Crow, indeed! :-((
>>
>Jim Crow: Separate but equal. First thing came to my mind when someone
>said: Let's put the Lindy Hoppers in a separate room.
The first thing that came to your mind was the worst-case interpretation. A
different approach with a far more correct conclusion was 'let's try to make
the Lindy people happy by giving them their own room.' It was not
condescending. It wasn't appeasement.
>I think the effort should be towards more intermixing of the two. Yeah, I know,
>you don't agree.
I don't agree, nor do I disagree. I'm conflicted. But, I ask myself why is
it important to intermix two different dances danced to significantly
different styles of music?
I don't dance Lindy, but very much enjoy watching it, especially when it's
danced by the accomplished dancers we see at the US Open. But, Lindy and WCS
are different dances danced to different music. There's plenty of cross-over
music, but, c'mon...cross-over music is a compromise and disservice to
everyone. There's no need to compromise.
>
>> All good things take time to develop and mature. Complaining about the slow
>> pace and labeling those who are trying their best to satisfy as many as they
>> can as narrow-minded and hypocritical is, well, narrow-minded and
>> hypocritical.
>
>I'm going to take this opportunity to repeat that I said, from the
>beginning, this was not meant to be a criticism, but to point out
>something that should be addressed. I said it to the people I met at
>the US Swing Open, and I decided to repeat it here.
>
I maintain my contention that you were myopic to have missed the Open's
decision to cater to the Lindy dancers. A small bit of due diligence would
have exposed the altruistic motive.
Given that I'm correct in my assertion that the Open is trying to cater to
the Lindy crowd, and not tolerate or otherwise segregate them, what are your
thoughts regarding a separate Lindy room?
Bob Wheatley
news:01e2a972-75f0-47e0...@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> I spoke to several people at length about this, making the same points
> I did here. I've met, and respect and like several people associated
> with the US Open, including the Martins. I've talked to these people.
> I *know* they want only to make this event the best possible. I have
> admired Roy Royston, "The Voice of the Open", for many years. I
> learned my first WCS steps from him, as well as how to keep my
> instruction lighthearted and fun. >
Oh boy, wait 'til Roy reads this! :>)
I'm sure he'll be flattered. Geesh!
Between you and Poopy the poor fella is gonna' get a complex.
Bob Wheatley
Bob Ford
Ed:
I've resisted posting anything on this but an obvious question comes
to my mind.
I have never been to a Lindy event as big as the U.S. Open or Boogie
by the Bay (which by the way has a separate Lindy room). I have been
to several smaller Lindy events which did NOT have a WCS room.
Are there any Lindy events anywhere that have separate WCS rooms?
Just curious.
Bob Ford
Images In Motion
www.imagesinmotion.com
memiki
Ed -- I am reading your post with a big sigh of relief....... it is
well-written and addresses many of the issues causing me concern.
Miki
dav...@aol.com
> "SwingingInTheHood" <SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote in message
Not to mention his lovely wife Nancy:)
David Koppelman
Ed Jay
>I have never been to a Lindy event as big as the U.S. Open or Boogie
>by the Bay (which by the way has a separate Lindy room). I have been
>to several smaller Lindy events which did NOT have a WCS room.
>
>Are there any Lindy events anywhere that have separate WCS rooms?
>
Probably not, but in all fairness, the US Open invites Lindy dancers to
attend, compete, and generally 'be part of the event.' I'm not aware of any
Lindy event that does the same for WCS dancers. How many WCS-only dancers go
to be a part of Lindy events?
Ed Jay
>On Dec 9, 1:38?pm, "Bob Wheatley" <master.dan...@hughes.net> wrote:
>> "SwingingInTheHood" <SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:01e2a972-75f0-47e0...@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I spoke to several people at length about this, making the same points
>> > I did here. ?I've met, and respect and like several people associated
>> > with the US Open, including the Martins. I've talked to these people.
>> > I *know* they want only to make this event the best possible. ?I have
>> > admired Roy Royston, "The Voice of the Open", for many years. ?I
>> > learned my first WCS steps from him, as well as how to keep my
>> > instruction lighthearted and fun. >
>>
>> Oh boy, wait 'til Roy reads this! :>)
>> I'm sure he'll be flattered. Geesh!
>> Between you and Poopy the poor fella is gonna' get a complex.
>>
>> Bob Wheatley
>
>Not to mention his lovely wife Nancy:)
>
Or his horse, Silver. :-)
Ed Jay
Hello, Bob. It's been too long since we've seen your name here. Hope all is
well with you and yours.
Ed Jay
>Wow, I went back to see what I wrote...
LOL!
>
>Yes, I meant to be provocative, but in a humorous kind of off the
>wall, silly kind of way. Apparently, nobody got the joke.
>
I think that you will find that the vast majority of dancers are color
blind, but quite sensitive to the issues surrounding race relations. It
doesn't take much to offend a reader who is both sensitive to the issues and
unaware that an attempt at humor is being made.
>For that, I'm sorry.
Well, in that case, never mind. Apology accepted. :-)
Bob Wheatley
news:4k5pl39suitu4vr95...@4ax.com...
Hi Ed, (and everyone)
Yes I'm fine, and I read here regularly. I just don't have time to respond
as often as I used to. I'll post a little more often in the future as I have
time.Nonetheless, I'm sure my friend and brother "Roy" will get a kick put
of this latest exchange.:>)
I'll have to make sure I give his wife "Nancy" and his "daughter" "Bobbette"
a hug and kiss in a couple of weeks at Worlds....
Bob Wheatley
Richard Maurer
Ed Jay wrote:
[...] the US Open invites Lindy dancers to attend,
compete, and generally 'be part of the event.
But why do the Lindy dancers come to an event where
they are relegated to a secondary room that only
operates part time? (In non Norma Miller years.)
Is it only the locals who come?
For those of us following the thread from home,
something does not fit.
Any more thoughts on why WC Swing dancers,
can't or won't do Lindy when the music comes on?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Icono Clast
> For many years, for the faster numbers I'd seek younger Followers. In
> recent years, however, I've had them complain that the number was "too
> fast" and we had to leave the floor. So now I seek older Followers for
> the faster numbers. Yes, some numbers are too fast but most that I can
> handle (up to about 160 bpm) are fine for the older crowd.
This evening, "Red Beans and Rice" was played for those who might want
to dance faster. A woman whose age I don't know but is almost
certainly well into her 60s, asked me to dance to it. Neither of us
had any trouble with the high tempo but there were a few steps I
didn't Lead because of it. Neither of us had to rest after the dance.
--
___________________________________________________________________
What is dancin' but makin' love set to music playin'? -- Sammy Cahn
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->-http://geocities.com/iconoc/
memiki
> Icono Clast wrote:
> > For many years, for the faster numbers I'd seek younger Followers. In
> > recent years, however, I've had them complain that the number was "too
> > fast" and we had to leave the floor. So now I seek older Followers for
> > the faster numbers. Yes, some numbers are too fast but most that I can
> > handle (up to about 160 bpm) are fine for the older crowd.
>
> This evening, "Red Beans and Rice" was played for those who might want
> to dance faster. A woman whose age I don't know but is almost
> certainly well into her 60s, asked me to dance to it. Neither of us
> had any trouble with the high tempo but there were a few steps I
> didn't Lead because of it. Neither of us had to rest after the dance.
>
Ike -- Are you thinking that because the music is faster it is not
WCS?
Miki
mc...@pitt.edu
I've always suspected that you were a good dancer - this tends to
confirm it , in my mind.
With lindy? I'd have to do some serious thought as to "which
president?" before I would attempt it.
Presidents and potentials.
My hat goes off to anyone who thinks they might be able to swing dance
to an Al Gore speech (and I support the guy.)I would have to, like,
maybe do a sloppy waltz to Jimmy Carter.
Two-step to W, of course. Hilary would be difficult at best. If
Cheney becomes President? Um... I might have to take dancing to the
here-to-fore believed to be undancable Supreme Court..
I could easily couple dance to Bill Clintons speeches. If I did it in
public, though, I might be arrested. ("I swear to God, your honor, it
was NOT sex.").
Guiliani? ECS - but with unswung triples for all the "slows" no
matter what the tempo is.
I could get DOWN to some Rev Al Sharpton speeches.
I actually happy that I didn't even consider dancing to presidential
speeches when Nixon was president. Even the thought is cruel and
unusual.
Eisenhower would have made a respectable, but not particularly
exciting, foxtrot.
Don't tell me, Miki, let me guess - your WCS prez was Reagan?
(Note: with the possible exception of Nixon, these choices are
independent of my politcal leanings.)
****
Over the weekend, as I danced at various events, I thought about what
I wrote here about dancing to extreme varities music (like, Ragas
Reggae, and Rueda. Punk rock, polkas and hip-hop.)
I came to the conclusion that, yeah, it would be good to dance to a
wide variety of music genres, sometime, but it would also be very,
very difficult. I think it would only work with a select crowd- and
even then, not for long.
> Having said that, the problem is that there comes a time when the dance is no
> longer WCS.
I'm not sure of this, but after reading about the various limits on
the genre's, I've though that maybe American swing dance needs to be
re-invented to be something that could be "People listen to that
music? Then we can "AmericanSwing to it!"
However, you would need a Frankie Manning/Dean Collins/fFred Astair
level dancer - or maybe agroup of dancers like that.
That won't be me. (At least not in public.)
We might more in that direction as there is more crossover between
dance styles.
With music in teh US, there has beena trend like taht - 50 years ago,
there were Jazz msucians, folk musicians, rock muscians, and classical
musicians, but almost nobody could do more than one of those. Now it's
pretty common for people to be able to do an number of stuyles and
hybrids between the styles.
I want to thnk you all for not taking what I wrote as troll-bait.
Michael
memiki
Michael -- Methinks I take your posts in the manner you intend them to
be taken :)...........and not as "troll-bait".......Re dancing with
some of the presidents, I would definitely have to "fake" it with
Clinton.
Miki
mc...@pitt.edu
<SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote:
>... conservation
> so long as you can still drive a Hummer."
I was riding my bicycle past a bunch of cars on a street with "head in
parking" th other day.
It's alwasy a little risk - I ahve to watch closely for any backup
light and prepare for extreme evasive measures shouold it look like a
driver isn't looking carefully enough.
I passed by thies GMC sports utility vehicle. I don't know the title,
but it's one of those that is slightly smaller than an aircraft
carrier. I had to veer out to get past it and then it almost killed
me.
Not that it was moving or anything. It wasn't. What alsomost killed
was tht right above the "Kerry/Edwards" bumper-=sticker was another
thawt said
mc...@pitt.edu
On Dec 10, 5:35 pm, m...@pitt.edu wrote:
> On Dec 8, 9:12 pm, SwingingInTheHood
>
> <SwingingInTheH...@centralavedance.com> wrote:
> >... conservation
> > so long as you can still drive a Hummer."
>
> I was riding my bicycle past a bunch of cars on a street with "head in
> parking" th other day.
>
> It's alwasy a little risk - I ahve to watch closely for any backup
> light and prepare for extreme evasive measures shouold it look like a
> driver isn't looking carefully enough.
>
> I passed by thies GMC sports utility vehicle. I don't know the title,
> but it's one of those SUVs that is slightly smaller than an aircraft
> carrier. I had to veer out to get past it and then it almost killed
> me.
>
> Not that it was moving or anything.
>
> It wasn't. What almost killed
> was that right above the "Kerry/Edwards" bumpersticker was another
> that said:
"I VOTE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT"
Michael
memiki
Michael -- The final diagnosis would have been you "died of laughter"!
Miki
swingi...@gmail.com
Camp Hollywood for example provides a room that branches toward west
coast swing courtesy of the dj stylings of Doug Silton. There are
other lindy events which advertise soul rooms, particularly when Peter
Strom is in attendance and djing. There is rarely a straight-up westie
that attends lindy hop events. Crossover dancers, sure, but a pure
westie? Doubt it.
Ed Jay
>Ed Jay wrote:
> [...] the US Open invites Lindy dancers to attend,
> compete, and generally 'be part of the event.
>
>But why do the Lindy dancers come to an event where
>they are relegated to a secondary room that only
>operates part time? (In non Norma Miller years.)
>Is it only the locals who come?
It's not only the locals. The room operates part time because demand has
been historically limited to the times it's now open. IOW, the operating
hours have changed consistent with Lindy dancers' usage.
>
>For those of us following the thread from home,
>something does not fit.
What makes it all fit, and what seems to be lost in the thread, is that the
US Open is historically and traditionally the de facto WCS Championship.
>
>Any more thoughts on why WC Swing dancers,
>can't or won't do Lindy when the music comes on?
>
We can't. WCS and Lindy are completely different dances. I can't dance
Lindy, and I don't think many other WCS dancers can. I have no idea how easy
or difficult it is for a Lindy dancer to dance WCS. I see slow Lindy danced
to WCS music, but I see WCS dancers sit out up-tempo Lindy-style songs.
Icono Clast
¡No! Whatever gave you that idea? Somewhere along the line I might
have said it's more difficult to dance at the higher tempi, as I think
most would agree and, of course, the higher the tempo the greater
likelihood of not being in full control of either one's self or
partner.
--
___________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
Nicole Frydman
myself-- I
dance WCS; I do not dance Lindy Hop. When I choose a dance event where
I spend over $800, I choose a WCS event. I do not care what the event
name is......only that it is a WCS event; that the music will be WCS
and there will be enough variety of it to please all the WCS dancers;
and I will dance WCS until my feet no longer respond to messages from
my brain. Don't get me wrong.......I enjoy seeing and dancing with the
Lindy Hoppers.....they are a great crowd....but not so much as to give
away WCS music to them in the evening or late-night."
Ok, I guess I'm confused then. Because I thought the event was the US
Open Swing Dance Championships. The name says it's "Open Swing" and
the event has 3 other Swing dances with their own competitive
divisions - Lindy, Carolina Shag, and Hand Dance.
So I guess I thought it WASN'T just a WCS event.
But I guess maybe I was wrong. Ah well.
Nicole Frydman
> Hey Nicole. Missed you at Swingin' New England. Which btw has one of
> the best crossover rooms along with Boston Tea Party. Most of the
> Champion level pros both Lindy and West Coast ended up in that room.
> If you've ever had a chance to hear Peter Strom play in a crossover
> room the man rocks imho. He played such a great mix of R&B, funk &
> soul and kept the energy going that it reminded me of the days of
> Kenny Wetzel and the Pressbox. There's a few problems today and it
> can't be all put on the DJ's. True they do have to play for the crowd
> but therein lies the problem. 1) Too many teachers today use only
> contemporary music to teach WCS. 2.) They also use very slow music 3)
> When they do use blues they also have a tendency to play blues that's
> about 90 beats per DAY! There's a lot of uneducated people out there
> who only dance to what they know or how they've learned. I've heard
> people complain about "Mustang Sally (about 118 BPM) being too fast.
> It really wasn't that long ago that we were dancing to things like
> "Red Beans" and "Move Across the River" both 140+ and those songs were
> brought into the WCS world by Carolina Shaggers. Songs like that were
> considered medium to medium fast. Point Blank. A lot of Westies don't
> know how to dance fast and controlled, and by fast I don't even mean
> slow Lindy speed. Where the DJ's come in is at the conventions . Most
> DJ's nowadays develop, whether they mean to or not, a particular
> preference or style. Just ask some of the top dancers and they'll
> describe a certain DJ as Good Blues - So So Contemporary, Good
> Contemporary - Bad Blues, Good Funk, Soul & Motown etc. I know a lot
> of people have been hammering about more blues but sometimes the
> dancers get put off because some of the DJ' don't understand there is
> also such a thing as bad blues. Just because it's blues or jazz or R&B
> doesn't mean that it's good. I know that I've just rambled on and that
> no answer to the problem has come up, but I do know one thing. If you
> have the right DJ a crossover room could have more swingable (if
> that's a word) music and more variety than any WCS and Lindy room
> combined. Let the flaming begin.
>
> Robert
Hey Robert! Did you know you taught my first ever WCS class???
Anyway, I hear ya. Big time. This weekend I was at the Swing and
Soul event (hosted by Peter Strom, Manu Smith, Tena Morales, and
Steven Mitchell) where all kinds of dancing was welcomed into one big
room. There were people who only dance WCS, people who only dance
lindy, people who do lots of different kinds of swing dancing, and
people who don't know swing hardly at all. It was INCREDIBLE! And
all the music could be considered "cross over" and yet I couldn't sit
still all weekend long. Only a handful of songs were tempo
restrictive on the slow or fast side and yet somehow the DJs managed
to make pretty much everyone happy. I can't understand how or believe
they did it, but they did! It was a really interesting mix of swing,
blues, soul, r&b, funk, etc - I'm sure just like what Peter did in
that cross over room at SNE. Cool, huh?
Anyway, hope to see you again soon! I didn't get a dance with you at
the Open and I'm due for one :-)
Nicole
Nicole Frydman
can't dance
Lindy, and I don't think many other WCS dancers can. I have no idea
how easy
or difficult it is for a Lindy dancer to dance WCS. I see slow Lindy
danced
to WCS music, but I see WCS dancers sit out up-tempo Lindy-style
songs."
Well now here we are at the heart of the debate. I don't think we're
really all that different. Not in the fundamentals anyway. And
certainly, if you can find a bum-load of cross over music where both
dances can be danced simultaneously and next to each other, how far
apart can we be?
But I suppose the real issue is how far apart do people want us to be?
I like dancing lindy, wcs, shag, balboa - pretty much all the swing
dances (albeit some I dance better than others). I like it when we're
all in the same room. I like diversity in music. I like having lots
of possible partners. I like the stuff that all the swing dances
share. I like how we can trace that we all come from the same place,
even if we've all grown to include new inspirations that allow us to
be different. I don't want to lose each dance's identity, but I honor
how we're all branches of the same tree.
And I LOVE the idea of having an event devoted to THAT part of who we
are. Especially when there are plenty of other events that focus on
the differences and the separateness already.
But then again, that's just me...
Nicole
Seco...@aol.com
>
> >I think the effort should be towards more intermixing of the two. Yeah, I know,
> >you don't agree.
>
> I don't agree, nor do I disagree. I'm conflicted. But, I ask myself why is
> it important to intermix two different dances danced to significantly
> different styles of music?
>
floors at LAPD and Brandin' Iron (Swing, Country and Line) is because
we do enjoy seeing and socializing with all the dancers. Most of the
socializing is done in the lobby in front of or between the ballrooms!
Everyone that is a dancer wants to be on the floor when the music is
playing and many don't like "sitting out" too often so thanks to Ron &
Tyoni for being so thoughtful!
Peter D
from my brain.
I vote this for quote of the month. :-)
Icono Clast
> > > "Red Beans and Rice" was played for those who might want
> > > to dance faster.
This evening learned it's about 152BPM.
--
___________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->-http://geocities.com/iconoc/
memiki
Niicole -- This discussion has gone full circle and has become
repetitive......with respect and all good wishes, at The Open 2008 I
hope you, as a Lindy Hopper, will have a place to dance to the music
of your choice and I, as a WCS dancer, will have a place to dance to
the music of my choice.
Wishing you a Happy and Merry Holiday Season.
Miki
memiki
> Well now here we are at the heart of the debate. I don't think we're
> really all that different. Not in the fundamentals anyway. And
> certainly, if you can find a bum-load of cross over music where both
> dances can be danced simultaneously and next to each other, how far
> apart can we be?
>
> But I suppose the real issue is how far apart do people want us to be?
I would say far enough apart so that WCS dancers don't get
hurt........I had lunch past Tuesday with a popular judge whose main
objection to Lindy mixed with WCS was injuries to WCS
dancers......something I had not thought about.
Miki
Swin...@webtv.net
Nicole:
<<But I suppose the real issue is how far apart do people want us to
be?>>
Miki:
<<I would say far enough apart so that WCS dancers don't get
hurt........I had lunch past Tuesday with a popular judge whose main
objection to Lindy mixed with WCS was injuries to WCS
dancers......something I had not thought about.>>
Scares the poop out of me :-)
There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and
posthumously.
Thomas Sowell
****************************
I should never believe in a God who would not know how to dance.
Nietzche
****************************
Left wing, right wing? I'm for the whole bird.
****************************
Don't do any kinky stunts!
Houdini
****************************
Leave Naturally
memiki
> Nicole:
> <<But I suppose the real issue is how far apart do people want us to
> be?>>
>
> Miki:
> <<I would say far enough apart so that WCS dancers don't get
> hurt........I had lunch past Tuesday with a popular judge whose main
> objection to Lindy mixed with WCS was injuries to WCS
> dancers......something I had not thought about.>>
>
> Scares the poop out of me :-)
......and well it should !! :)
Miki
dav...@aol.com
Nicole:
The US Open has long been considered the "de facto" West Coast Swing
championship. WCS does not have a separate event such as the American
Lindy Hop Championships (or the National Shag Dance Championships for
that matter). Nonetheless, the current owners and Board of the Open
have gone out of their way to accomodate many other styles of Swing
and provide both social and competition dance opportunities for
shaggers, lindy hoppers, and hand dancers. This is either
appreciated by these dancers, or it isn't.
As to more "swing" music, to which slow lindy could be done, I'm on
that side of the debate within WCS anyway:)
David Koppelman