Flat-chested female characters (was Re: Overweight characters)
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
--Eric
Just another theatre geek.....
>Now that it's been determined that there are some overweight characters
>in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
Ummmm....Julie and Katie Power, from POWER PACK.
>If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
You MUST be joking!
Seriously, I can't think of one off the top of my head....
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu; Uncle Bonsai Memorial Fan Club
"Originally, I got into theatre to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all
I found were women."
Phil Poole
>In article <1991Aug19....@cs.wayne.edu> EIV...@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU writes:
>>Now that it's been determined that there are some overweight characters
>>in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
>
> Ummmm....Julie and Katie Power, from POWER PACK.
>
What about the wasp from West Coast Avengers. Or diamond back from
Captain America....or Aleta from Guardians of the Galaxy...also Nikki
from the same comic.....I don't recall there breast to be that large.
Philip Poole.
Ron Levy (Armchair)
>What about the Diamondback from Captain America?
She was a strange case. She was pretty flat and athletic while
she was a villian and a charter member of the Serpent Society. When
she began getting friendly with Captain America, and thus getting more
screen time, her breasts enlarged past cantaloupes almost to Power
Girl size in certain shots. I sort of wondered what she was injecting
herself with. They have strength serums and radiation treatments that
make people easily able to lift fifteen tons.. Why not breast
enlargment radiation simply from hanging around too many radioactive
superheroes?
Imagine what might happen to Mary Jane Parker (nee Watson) in a few
years.. She might not be able to walk!
--
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Paul Pereira
Terra, from the Titans. There are girls her age in other comics that
have larger breasts.
This is a weird topic ...
-paul
98964000
per...@csc.ti.com (Paul Pereira) writes:
>
>Terra, from the Titans. There are girls her age in other comics that
>have larger breasts.
I always wondered if it was `looksism' that Terra, the only
flat-chested, buck-toothed character in the New Titans title, turned
out to be insane and evil? Wonder Girl, Starfire, Raven, even
Jericho's mom were pretty busty, and had perfect teeth. I wasn't
sure if I should be disgusted with the message Perez was creating:
"if you don't have big breasts, you're not one of us."
>This is a weird topic ...
But perhaps relevant, if the majority of comics buyers are teenage
males, forming their attitudes about sex roles.
--
Bill Karwin bi...@ucscb.ucsc.edu
"Any nitwit can use a computer. Many do." -Ted Nelson
Joel Tscherne
In a previous article, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....) says:
>>If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
>
> You MUST be joking!
>
> Seriously, I can't think of one off the top of my head....
Actually, neither Lois Lane or Lana Lang are particularly
'well-endowed', although some of the villains In the Superman books have
been (Maxima in particular).
--
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======================================================================
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G. Host
> Article <1991Aug20....@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> From: ac...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joel Tscherne)
>
> In a previous article, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....) says:
> >>If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
> > You MUST be joking!
> > Seriously, I can't think of one off the top of my head....
> Actually, neither Lois Lane or Lana Lang are particularly
> 'well-endowed', although some of the villains In the Superman books have
> been (Maxima in particular).
Actually there have been a number or small figures in comics
Raven (from the Titans) was actually petite at one point, the same
with Dr. Light in Justice League.
The problem seems to be when they switch artists to those who
use 'standard or heroic figures' for all characters
(John Byrne is the biggest example)
This seems to especially occur in guest star/cross-over roles
Once they are branded as such it seems that they never go back to
norm - too much loss of recognition I guess.
--
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Ken Small
>
>Actually, neither Lois Lane or Lana Lang are particularly
>'well-endowed', although some of the villains In the Superman books have
>been (Maxima in particular).
Actually, Lois seems to have filled out in the past year or so.
I haven't gone back to look, but it seems like she suddenly got a lot
more attractive around the time that she and Clark became an item.
Smells like an editorial decree to me ("Well, Spider-Man is married to a
model, we can't let Supes marry a frumpy-looking Lois. Punch her up,
boys."). Of course, I may just be cynical, and the new Lois-look may
have just been a natural change, but I like the old Lois better.
--
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Joe Sherman
|> I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kitty Pryde yet.
|>
Yeah, and for all you Byrne-blasters, it was John that drew her first and
flat-chested. Other artists have added occasional implants!
--
Joe Sherman
University of Washington
joe...@cs.washington.edu
jm...@pn1.mnet.uswest.com
Andrew M Champagne
How about Shaman's daughter in Alpha Flight? Or Dagger? Here are a couple
of heroines that fall out of the B+ cup size catagory...
You're right, Paul, this is a weird topic.
-Andy
(UNH)
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
>Actually there have been a number or small figures in comics
>Raven (from the Titans) was actually petite at one point, the same
^^^
No pun intended, right? 8^)
--Eric
Mike O'Connor
:
: How about Shaman's daughter in Alpha Flight? Or Dagger? Here are a couple
Even with Talisman (Shaman's daughter), her bust size has varied considerably.
Mike O'Connor | "MY SENSORS INDICATE TRACE AMOUNTS
NIC Database: MJO17 | OF CHOCOLATE IN THE PANTRY."
Internet: m...@mtu.edu | -Calvin and Hobbes
UUCP: ...!ttardis!mjo |
Patrick McClue
I can think of two Eric: Shadowcat of Excalibur and Namorita of Namor/New
Warriors.
They are the only ones that pop out of my mind...(well, there are the two
little girls from powerpack :-/ )
Patrick
Bart Smith
I guess it all depends on the artist.
My one vote would be Kitty Pryde. (Seems she's always complaining about not
measuring up to others, like Rachel.)
>
> --Eric
--
Bart -Laz- Smith
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Royals in '91! (Hey, NOW do you believe that anything's possible? >:) )
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All from Force-X: St. Louis
James Davis Nicoll
>Now that it's been determined that there are some overweight characters
>in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
>If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
Everyone seems to be restricting themselves to superhero comics.
Jaka isn't particularly busty (Although Nurse might be :). Shirow's
Appleseed has Hitomi, who is towards the lower end of the bell curve,
bust-wise. I'm not sure if Deunan would count as 'small', since the folks
in Appleseed wear clothing, as opposed to the spray-on spandex in other
titles, and her body armour in the current issue makes it hard to tell.
<Side note: Duenan definitely falls into the babes'n'arms catagory made
so popular by Ms Hamilton and others>. Mai the phychic girl is a normal
teenaged girl as far as her *body* goes; ditto for Garten.
The list gets *really* long once you include titles like the
Disney line :)
James Nicoll
Richard Bretscheider
>In article <1991Aug19....@cs.wayne.edu>, EIV...@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU writes:
>> Now that it's been determined that there are some overweight characters
>> in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
>> If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
>I guess it all depends on the artist.
>My one vote would be Kitty Pryde. (Seems she's always complaining about not
>measuring up to others, like Rachel.)
Awwww, that's no fair, Kitty is the perpetual pre pubescent. I'd like to
propose some more _mature_ candidates for the less than B-cup group. Two
come to mind right away, Agatha Harkness and May Parker. Then again, if
you really want to stretch things, there's Freedom Force's Destiny. I
know she's dead, ashes scattered to the wind and over the ocean, but remember
that this is the Marvel universe, where death means you never have to say
"we've lost the trademark."
Feeling weird this morning, could you tell? :-)
--
"If you're not going to kill me, I've got things to do."
Ric Bretschneider
apple!netcom!ric
BWAH-Ha-ha!
Jonah H Cohen
While we're at it...
Stealth (from LEGION '9x) wears a costume that would be illegal
in most states if worn by most femal comics characters. She's pretty flat,
which is just as well, considering what her idea of sex is. :>
(I won't bother mentioning Strata, tho she's even flatter.)
Library Guy!
Jonah H Cohen
>I always wondered if it was `looksism' that Terra, the only
>flat-chested, buck-toothed character in the New Titans title, turned
>out to be insane and evil? Wonder Girl, Starfire, Raven, even
>Jericho's mom were pretty busty, and had perfect teeth. I wasn't
>sure if I should be disgusted with the message Perez was creating:
>"if you don't have big breasts, you're not one of us."
>>This is a weird topic ...
>But perhaps relevant, if the majority of comics buyers are teenage
>males, forming their attitudes about sex roles.
Clue-phone ringing.
If you'd really like, I'm sure all of us @ r.a.c. could create a
list of evil, nasty horrible women who have huge chests.
And if you're so concerned about those impressionable teenaged
males getting their attitudes on sex roles formed by comics, why not ask
what kind of message they're getting about what >males< are expected to
look like. ("If you don't have a chiseled bod, you're not one of us"???)
Library Guy!
Charles L Isbell
|In article <19...@darkstar.ucsc.edu> bi...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (98964000) writes:
|>I always wondered if it was `looksism' that Terra, the only
|>flat-chested, buck-toothed character in the New Titans title, turned
|>out to be insane and evil? Wonder Girl, Starfire, Raven, even
|>Jericho's mom were pretty busty, and had perfect teeth. I wasn't
|>sure if I should be disgusted with the message Perez was creating:
|>"if you don't have big breasts, you're not one of us."
|>>This is a weird topic ...
|>But perhaps relevant, if the majority of comics buyers are teenage
|>males, forming their attitudes about sex roles.
| Clue-phone ringing.
| If you'd really like, I'm sure all of us @ r.a.c. could create a
|list of evil, nasty horrible women who have huge chests.
Actually, I once went thru my entire Titans collection and noticed the
following: all the good females have cute pug noses (sort of a
not-quite-wide-enuff-to-be-stereotypically Black nose) and all the bad
females have long pointed ans slender noses (sort of a White
stereotype-from-hell nose).
For a good example see issue 20 something when we see Starfire and
Blackfire with their faces faces opposite sides with the Omega Men
running in-between.
The one exception to this was Terra. Given Perez's habits it was
utterly striking to see her standing their in here fourteen fifteen
year old glory looking like pure evil after boning Terminator.
--
Peace.
"If George Washington didn't get independence for this country
nonviolently, and if Patrick Henry didn't come up with a
nonviolent statement, and you taught me to look up to them as
patriots and heroes, then it's time for you to realize that I've
learned your books well."
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I am Charles Isbell, Homeboy from hell, living axiom and anonymous absolute
ruler of the cosmos. Feel free to email me at isb...@ai.mit.edu. Boo.
Christopher Grant
So... am I to assume that Marvel and DC, with their superhero
stereotype characters, are in actuality trying to set some kind of Aryan
standard for people? Buxom, voluptous women, strong, muscular Atlas males,
all extorting the values of superiority over their fellow men (and women!)?
Stormtrooper Superheroes? Aryan Legion? SS Factor? The SA-Men?
Is this either too silly, or too close to the truth to be silly,
or what...?
Chris Grant
jac...@netcom.COM
Rob Mayoff
>in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
Clea. At least, in my Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Deluxe
Edition, volume 2.
rob
Byron C. Go
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kitty Pryde yet.
Or Tandy Bowen.
regards,
byron (:
--
byron c go by...@soda.berkeley.edu at...@cleveland.freenet.edu
"Help! I'm in love with a credit risk!" -- bcg
Hugh Moore
You have a different kind of woman over where you come from.
Mad uncle
Iain McCord
them.
-Iain-McCord-
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
I think it's more of a self-perpetuating myth, lending itself to, but not
necessarily part of, an arayan philosophy.
In answer to a point someone else made about muscular-males giving the wrong
impression--this is not a good comparison because girls are not as avid readers
of comics as boys, and because breasts are not muscles, so large breasts are
not a sign of strength--the symbolic male counterpart to breasts is (like it
or not) the penis. If girls read comics more than boys, you might see a lot
of male characters with bulging crotches and muscle-bound women with smaller or
avg-sized breasts.
Let's start a thread about superhero penis-sizes now, OK?
Better yet, let's not and say we did!
--Eric
Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)
po...@cs.widener.edu (Phil Poole) writes:
As for the Wasp and Diamondback, it depends on who is drawing them. I
haven't seen either of them lately (gave up on most Marvels) but I can
distinctly remember seeing both of them with, well, large breasts.
Kitty Pryde when she first appeared was rather normal looking for her
age (flat-chested) and sometimes she still appears that way (again, it
depends on who is drawing her). Phoenix (the current one, not Jean
Grey) sometimes appears non-buxom too.
Raven of the New (Teen) Titans, the girl from Dial H for Hero (oh boy,
I'm dating myself here), and Terra (old and new (?) Teen Titans) come
to mind as well.
Ok, we've talked about overweight and flat-chested characters. How
many handicapped characters can we come up with? A couple to start
off with: Doctor Mid-Nite (blind) and Barbara ("Oracle/Batgirl")
Gordon (paralyzed).
--
"Coming to you direct from the largest synchronicity hole in the universe,
Socorro, New Mexico, its..."
Kansas Jim (jo...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu)
Benjamin R Pierce
>Ok, we've talked about overweight and flat-chested characters. How
>many handicapped characters can we come up with? A couple to start
>off with: Doctor Mid-Nite (blind) and Barbara ("Oracle/Batgirl")
>Gordon (paralyzed).
Well, Professor X (again)...I guess you could also count what's-her-name from
the New Warriors (Night Thrasher's girlfriend) and a couple of the old Superman
villains (what was the name of the guy who fell into a nuclear reactor and got
some sort of fatal radiation poisoning, but was capable of projecting an
invisible energy-form to do his dirty work? I think the only people who could
see him were Superman (of course) and a blind girl who he kept trying to kill..)
-Ben
Ron Graham
writes...
>In answer to a point someone else made about muscular-males giving the
>wrong impression--this is not a good comparison because girls are not as
>avid readers of comics as boys, and because breasts are not muscles, so
>large breasts are not a sign of strength--the symbolic male counterpart
>to breasts is (like it or not) the penis. If girls read comics more than
>boys, you might see a lot of male characters with bulging crotches and
>muscle-bound women with smaller or avg-sized breasts.
I disagree with this analogy. Here's why: (1) Women don't respond to
visual stimulation the same way men do, so they are not (by and large)
looking for a bulging crotch; (2) the penis - awww, I'm not even going
to bring that up. I'd just be asking for flames ;-). My wife is under
the impression, based on something she read, that penises do not tend to
vary in size all that much from male to male, despite variations in other
aspects of the body. Neither one of us has ever run an experiment ;-),
so I don't know. But I stand by point (1) anyway.
You get big-chested female characters because males (1) do most of the
drawing, and (2) do most of the buying. IMPO.
RG
Ohio's State Motto: "Be Prepared to Stop."
G. Host
> Article <88...@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> From: v124...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Benjamin R Pierce)
How about Hector Hammond (from Green Lantern)?
He has appeared post-Crisis and was confined to his chair.
And Guy Gardner - Handicapped (no I am not talking about mental)
by being a permanent baby sitter for Gnort!
Big Sir was mentally handicapped before he even got into JL[AEI]
Of course the classic overweight character is Bouncing Boy of the Legion
and recently Chunk (Flash III Friend and Former Foe)
Juice S. Aaron
The CHIEF from Doom Patrol.
Mento former Doom Patrol member and Teen Titans worrier.
Lori Lemaris--when she went to college with Clark Kent.
(She was kind of handicapped out of water)
Dr Megala from Captain Atom
Just a few
JSA
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
>In article <1991Aug22....@cs.wayne.edu>, EIV...@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU
> writes...
>>In answer to a point someone else made about muscular-males giving the
>>wrong impression--this is not a good comparison because girls are not as
>>avid readers of comics as boys, and because breasts are not muscles, so
>>large breasts are not a sign of strength--the symbolic male counterpart
>>to breasts is (like it or not) the penis. If girls read comics more than
>>boys, you might see a lot of male characters with bulging crotches and
>>muscle-bound women with smaller or avg-sized breasts.
>
>I disagree with this analogy. Here's why: (1) Women don't respond to
>visual stimulation the same way men do, so they are not (by and large)
>looking for a bulging crotch; (2) the penis - awww, I'm not even going
You are right!!! Which is why I wrote "IF girls read comics more than boys..."
I felt it was obvious enough that this implied they would be as visually
stimulated.
>to bring that up. I'd just be asking for flames ;-). My wife is under
>the impression, based on something she read, that penises do not tend to
>vary in size all that much from male to male, despite variations in other
Well, as a "veteran" of the high-school boys' shower, I can say they do vary.
You sure she "read" this? :-) :-) ;-)
To further the comparison, not only are some men's penii (plural) larger,
you can't exercise a penis to make it bigger (permanently, that is :-)),
the same goes for breasts. Breasts and penii can be surgically enlarged.
What's more, SOME women ARE as easily visually stimulated as men, and some
place a sexual/erotic value on large penii, like men do on breasts--
the key difference is that large breasts don't give the sort of sexual
stimulation to a man that a large penis could to a woman.
Which is odd, in a way.
--Eric
(I think I better get out of this thread while I can!)
Timothy W. Lynch
>> >Ok, we've talked about overweight and flat-chested characters. How
>> >many handicapped characters can we come up with? A couple to start
>> >off with: Doctor Mid-Nite (blind) and Barbara ("Oracle/Batgirl")
>> >Gordon (paralyzed).
There's Madame Web, a short-lived character in "Amazing Spider-Man" about
ten years ago. And the Owl, a Marvel (primarily Daredevil) villain.
Tim Lynch
Stephen Paul Dragoo
>
> In article <1991Aug19....@cs.wayne.edu>, EIV...@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU wri
> > Now that it's been determined that there are some overweight characters
> > in comics; are there any flat-chested female characters?
> > If not, are there any that would wear a B-cup, or smaller, in reality?
>
> I guess it all depends on the artist.
>
> My one vote would be Kitty Pryde. (Seems she's always complaining about not
> measuring up to others, like Rachel.)
>
> >
> > --Eric
Oh, come now! (sorry, no pun of any nature intended) What does it matter
whether or not a female character wears a B-cup or less? While I would
rather have Rachel around if I wanted to take on someone like, say,
Galacticus(:-), I definitely would choose Kitty for a date before Rachel.
(especially since I don't have a thing for leather ;-) Sure, Kitty
isn't well endowed, but she is still gorgeous.
(BTW: in the Marvel Summer Special(X-Men vs. MkII Sentinals, Cloak and
Dagger vs. a drug dealer/porno director, Sabra vs. Windstorm, and Power
Pack vs. The Creature From the Lost Lagoon(seriously!)), Julie Power
DOES look like she's starting to fill out a bit(she's even becoming
interested in boys!))
/sa
>
This has been a service of the Consumer's Hotline of Ur Challenging
Kahn and LaughingEggS (CHUCKLES). All who serve the great Kublai Khan
shall be executed by being force-fed 1 million eggs(shells intact). ;-)
"The entrance to mutant heaven is not the pearly gates, but revolving
doors." -- Charles Xavier.
Those wishing to write, flame, discredit, praise, etc.: my address is
cyclops@bluemoon. Anything else, of course, can be sent to the White
House.
Ken Goach
around the fact that they are all handicapped societal rejects!
ken
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THIS POSTING DOES NOT REPRESENT THE OPINIONS OF MY EMPLOYERS.
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lightbulb?
A: Twenty-one. One to change the bulb and 20 to
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Antonio Romero
Offhand, I come up with Mister E. (having one's eyes gouged out with
a spoon surely must count for something)... and perhaps the 20's series
children in Akira...
Then again, I'm not too sure either of these counts for what you're
looking for.
-Antonio Romero rom...@arisia.xerox.com
James Davis Nicoll
What exactly is meant here by handicapped? Would Briareos (Appleseed),
who lacks most normal body parts, but who has a cyborg body that appears to
replace most of the missing bits *and* supply him with abilities normal bodies
don't, disabled? Cliff Steele *thinks* of himself as disabled, but has
abilities normal humans don't because of the nature of his disability. How
do people whose 'extranormal' abilities come from their 'disabilities'
rate on the handicapped scale?
Maybe there's a special case of disability: transformation.
BTW, is it just me, or does the binding on Appleseed BK 3 and
Dirty Pair BK 2 really suck?
James Nicoll
James Michael Rankin
>abilities normal humans don't because of the nature of his disability. How
>do people whose 'extranormal' abilities come from their 'disabilities'
>rate on the handicapped scale?
I would classify Cliffe as handicapped based on Grant Morrison's first issue
of DOOM PATROL; Cliffe's senses were radically limited by his robot
body. Like he himself said, he is a total body amputee. He complained of
ghost sensations of every type of which his current body was incapable
(e. g. sex, defecating, eating, smell, who knows what else?). Although,
with his current "upgraded" body, maybe some of those senses have been
added (at least smell, I think).
An interesting addition to the idea of handicapped superhero was the
reference to the de-powered Storm in X-Men a while back as being
"crippled". I thought this was a pretty cool idea; likening being stripped
of abilities far beyond those of ordinary men and women to the loss of any
normal capability that a person may have had since birth.
The idea was that the ensuing depression would be much the same.
my $0.02
-jimbo
KirK
>
No it's simply supply and demand. Why else would they give Psylocke only
two outfits for the entire span the X-men were in Australia. (The enitre
time she was either in body armor or a purple teddy.) Why else would they
kill off the only certified wimp hero in any of Marvel's titles (Doug
Ramsey in case you didn't know.) Although you have to admit Marvel and DC
are no worse than television advertising in that regard.
It also depends on the artist. There was a recent Excalibur graphic novel
where all of the female characters had the inflatable-helium-Doly Parton-
to-the-nth-degree mamaries from hell including Kitty. The men are even
worse in that regard. In X-Men 1 (and if things don't get better quick
they will be a victim of budget cuts) how did Magneto get to be BUILT?
In one of the early episodes of the Extinction Agenda Havock and Scott
battle each other with muscles that bulge worse than something like a
Conan nightmare where before they were pretty well moderate.
Flakbait
Jim W Lai
>There was a recent Excalibur graphic novel
>where all of the female characters had the inflatable-helium-Doly Parton-
>to-the-nth-degree mamaries from hell including Kitty. The men are even
>worse in that regard. In X-Men 1 (and if things don't get better quick
>they will be a victim of budget cuts) how did Magneto get to be BUILT?
>In one of the early episodes of the Extinction Agenda Havock and Scott
>battle each other with muscles that bulge worse than something like a
>Conan nightmare where before they were pretty well moderate.
I suppose the men take megasteroids (prototyped by the Dark Knight?) and,
in the superhero universe at least, there is some hormone that women can
take to increase certain body parts just over the pectoral region.
It would be funny if one woman's buxom bust were superlatex covering two
small packs of technological wonders and she were really flat underneath.
A perfect disguise, no?
Ow.
Christopher Grant
Yeah, if there were no demand, there would be no supply.
But please, bear in mind, I wrote most of that Aryan Superheroes
thing in jest. But still, it is sort of, well... odd.
jac...@netcom.COM
David Oakes
you ever notice how the only handicapped heros/villians are
confined to a wheelchair or other leg prosthetic???
.end squeaky voice.
yes, i know there are (a few) blind people but still
do marvel/DC have kickbacks with a wheelchair company or what?
dave
Larry J Brackney
>..use andy rooney voice here.
>you ever notice how the only handicapped heros/villians are
>confined to a wheelchair or other leg prosthetic???
>.end squeaky voice.
Strange, but the character I was going to mention was wheelchair ridden!
What was the name of the Pyromaniac fireman in Haywire? His handicap was a
motivation for his actions. Rather thinly written, but still fun.
And let us not forgot the doctor from Stray Toasters. Now that's a
handicap he learned to live with!
- Larry
--
/ Larry J. Brackney | E-Mail: brac...@mn.ecn.purdue.edu \
|-------------------------| S-Mail: 3116 Hilltop Dr. W. Lafayette IN 47906 |
| Mechanical Engineering | Phone : (317)-463-1602 (Home) |
\ Purdue University | (317)-494-6552 (Office) /
Paul Pereira
>
>And Guy Gardner - Handicapped (no I am not talking about mental)
>by being a permanent baby sitter for Gnort!
Actually, Guy was REALLY mentally handicapped (he was in a coma),
for quite a while there.
Anyone remember way back then? When Guy was just another substitute
Green Lantern?
Was there ever an explanation as to why Guy turned into such an asshole
after coming out of his coma? I don't remember him being a jerk before
his hospitalization!
God, I can remember the reintroduction of Guy during the Stanton
GL Corps era. I never thought he would get so ... BIG!
-paul
*
if anyone cares, my summer internship at TI is now over
i'll be back on the net at mit next week as 'ol...@athena.mit.edu'
*
Scott R Violet
>
>How about Hector Hammond (from Green Lantern)?
>He has appeared post-Crisis and was confined to his chair.
>
>And Guy Gardner - Handicapped (no I am not talking about mental)
>by being a permanent baby sitter for Gnort!
>
>Big Sir was mentally handicapped before he even got into JL[AEI]
>
>
>Of course the classic overweight character is Bouncing Boy of the Legion
>and recently Chunk (Flash III Friend and Former Foe)
I think that they classic handicaped super-hero is Daredevil, he is also
blind.
-Xepo
Gyst
So... am I to assume that Marvel and DC, with their superhero
stereotype characters, are in actuality trying to set some kind of Aryan
standard for people? Buxom, voluptous women, strong, muscular Atlas males,
all extorting the values of superiority over their fellow men (and women!)?
Stormtrooper Superheroes? Aryan Legion? SS Factor? The SA-Men?
Is this either too silly, or too close to the truth to be silly,
No, I don't think so. These ideals existed before Hitler mashed togeter his
drivel. It's when the heroes start start behaving like those mentioned above
that it becomes nasty, am I not right?
Gyst.
David Goldfarb
)Was there ever an explanation as to why Guy turned into such an asshole
)after coming out of his coma? I don't remember him being a jerk before
)his hospitalization!
The Phantom Zone villains' mind control that sent him *into* the
coma gave him brain damage. Recall that the Guy Gardner in _Emerald Dawn II_
was a fairly normal fellow.
Come to think of it, what's the post-Crisis version of the story?
The Phantom Zone villains have been retconned out of existence.
)
)-paul
David Goldfarb gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (Insert standard disclaimer)
"[Diane Duane] is a very cunning linguist."
-- David Gerrold
Abhijit Khale
>In article <1991Aug23.1...@csc.ti.com> per...@csc.ti.com (Paul Pereira) writes:
>)Was there ever an explanation as to why Guy turned into such an asshole
>)after coming out of his coma? I don't remember him being a jerk before
>)his hospitalization!
>
> The Phantom Zone villains' mind control that sent him *into* the
>coma gave him brain damage. Recall that the Guy Gardner in _Emerald Dawn II_
>was a fairly normal fellow.
Hmm. I wouldnt say the Guy we saw in ED-II was normal. Guy kept
on talking about another gardner inside him he had to keep bottled
up. He also went berserk in one issue. I guess the story is that
Gardner indeed has two personalities : one being the nice guy ( pun
intended) we've seen on occasion in JL and one being the jerk.
I think there's some scope for interesting character development with Guy,
but the major place he's appeared recently is in JL, which is the worst
place in the world for character development. JL has tended to
exaggerate every aspect of his character ( both his jerk-like behavior and
his niceness). He actually didnt come across as so bad in the recent
GL solo adventure he had. Even in JL there are times when he's been portrayed
well : in the fight with Beetle and even in this years annual, there
was an excellent scene between him and Ice.
Apparently Guy is slated to meet Kari Limbo, his old girlfriend sometime
soon : that might clear up some old plot threads.
Abhijit
Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)
>
> What exactly is meant here by handicapped? Would Briareos (Appleseed),
>who lacks most normal body parts, but who has a cyborg body that appears to
>replace most of the missing bits *and* supply him with abilities normal bodies
>don't, disabled? Cliff Steele *thinks* of himself as disabled, but has
>abilities normal humans don't because of the nature of his disability. How
>do people whose 'extranormal' abilities come from their 'disabilities'
>rate on the handicapped scale?
I guess what I meant by handicapped was someone who was able to
overcome their disability and become 'a greater force of good' in the
process. Cliff Steele (and Cyborg) didn't overcome their physical
problems (someone did that for them) but they did overcome their
mental problems with what had been done to them. At the other end of
the spectrum, people like the Chief and Prof. Xaiver have more or less
used their 'mental fortitude and capabilities' to overcome their
physical limitations.
Juice S. Aaron
Interesting that Keith Giffen, writer of JLA/E/IQ, also wrote
Emerald Dawn II
JSA
James Davis Nicoll
>jdni...@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>>
>> What exactly is meant here by handicapped?
Rhetoric deleted
>
>I guess what I meant by handicapped was someone who was able to
>overcome their disability and become 'a greater force of good' in the
>process. Cliff Steele (and Cyborg) didn't overcome their physical
>problems (someone did that for them) but they did overcome their
>mental problems with what had been done to them. At the other end of
>the spectrum, people like the Chief and Prof. Xaiver have more or less
>used their 'mental fortitude and capabilities' to overcome their
>physical limitations.
Hmmmph. I'd lay even odds that the Chief can walk; he's just
playing mind games on the DP :)
It's interesting (or perhaps very dull; I'm always confusing
the two) how well the technology the main characters in Appleseed
use is integrated into the society of Appleseed. Cliff Steele, or
Cyborg both use gross high-tech prosthesis gadgets that would be
a god-send to other handicapped people, but for some reason, in
mainstream comics, a character doesn't get neato high-tech legs or
total body prosthesis unless they plan to use it to fight crime'n'evil.
Never mind that the Chief *built* Cliff's body, and could make himself
an exoskeleton for his legs; he's a guyinnawheelchair, and they never
think to use the tech other members of their social group do. In
Appleseed, on the other hand, the technology that allows Briaros
to function despite an apparent lack of a body (We have no solid
proof that he's much more than a CNS in a can) is used to help
civilians walk, and when Olympus decides to confiscate cyborg
tech that could be used for military purposes, they end up taking
legs away from civilians. The line between military tech and
civilian tech is very fuzzy in Appleseed, which I like.
If only I understood what was going on in Appleseed...
James Nicoll
james a perreault
>use is integrated into the society of Appleseed. Cliff Steele, or
>Cyborg both use gross high-tech prosthesis gadgets that would be
>a god-send to other handicapped people, but for some reason, in
Do you read the Titans? Vic Stone isn't the only person to benefit
from his prosthesis gadgets. There is a whole group of children that
Vic works with that are handicapped and who use the gadgets. I don't
know what issue of the New Teen Titans that they were introduced, but I'm
pretty sure it was an early one.
Your point is, however, well taken. The Justice League built a sattelite with
advandced technology ( Kryptonian and Thangarian ) that wasn't shared with
the rest of the world. I wonder how they retconned this? They couldn't
of used Thangarian technology because of the Hawkworld retcon. And the Byrne
Superman isn't a scientific wonder.
Jim
Mike O'Connor
:
:Your point is, however, well taken. The Justice League built a sattelite with
:advandced technology ( Kryptonian and Thangarian ) that wasn't shared with
:the rest of the world. I wonder how they retconned this? They couldn't
:of used Thangarian technology because of the Hawkworld retcon. And the Byrne
:Superman isn't a scientific wonder.
I believe the retcon was that Oan/Green Lantern tech was used in the
building of the satellite. Or at least the teleporting mechanisms.
Mike O'Connor | "I need a vacation."
NIC Database: MJO17 |
Internet: m...@mtu.edu | -The Terminator
UUCP: ...!ttardis!mjo |
G. Host
> Article <1991Aug27....@acsu.buffalo.edu> From: j...@acsu.buffalo.edu (james a perreault)
> Your point is, however, well taken. The Justice League built a sattelite with
> advandced technology ( Kryptonian and Thangarian ) that wasn't shared with
> the rest of the world. I wonder how they retconned this? They couldn't
> of used Thangarian technology because of the Hawkworld retcon. And the Byrne
> Superman isn't a scientific wonder.
>
> Jim
I think this a major flaw in the Crisis revamping of the JLA
Lets look at the old roster of the original JLA and who has been dropped:
NSG: No significant change
*: Original Member
*Martian Manhunter - Always member but all other Martians have been retconed out
*Flash - NSG
*Aquaman - NSG
*Wonder Woman - Never Member
*Superman - Never Member; helped out on occasion including Starbreaker
*Batman - Member but in what standing?
*Green Lantern - NSG - No martian invasion; first retcon origin gone
Green Arrow - NSG
Atom - NSG
Hawkman - Golden Age Hawkman substituted - for how long?
Black Canary - Replaced WW as starting member - joined before GA!
Elongated Man - NSG
Phantom Stranger - Most of the stories retconed out
Red Tornado - No longer mutiple worlds
Hawkwoman - Never member - no substitute
Zatana - NSG?
Firestorm - sponsered by Superman originally - assume Flash or GL?
New Roster:
Flash, Aquaman, Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (original)
Batman
Green Arrow
Atom
Golden Age Hawkman
Elongated Man
Red Tornado
Zatana
Firestorm
Still Viable:
There can be still JLA-JSA crossovers but would be much less limited
in scope
They did not retcon the Starbreaker or New Gods Crossover stories
Amazo still around but less powerful (No Superman or WW)
Dr. Light could easily be written as a foe of another hero besides
Hawkman
Most JLA hero team vs matching villian team matchups would work fine
except that the corresponding heros and villians dropped
(i.e. Superman-Luthor and Hawkman-I.Q.)
Possible Viables:
Construct would have to be defeated by someone other WW
Manhunter could be patched, but someone would have to replace
WW
Definitely Gone:
Legion Crossovers
Shazam crossover
Ultra
Bad News:
There is very little tech left in the JLA.
Without Superman and Hawkman most of their technology
would have to be Oan or captured.
Several times they had to use Amazon healing which is broken by this.
This is just my surface thoughts. They should come out with a new
Justice League mini-series to cover the early years.
This would handle the retconning (like Emerald Dawn) in a consistant
manner.
Glad to bring up more on the subject if the interest is here.
I have been a JL fan in all three incarnations (the 2nd was the
worst in my opinion).
Abhijit Khale
>>use is integrated into the society of Appleseed. Cliff Steele, or
>>Cyborg both use gross high-tech prosthesis gadgets that would be
>>a god-send to other handicapped people, but for some reason, in
>
>Do you read the Titans? Vic Stone isn't the only person to benefit
>from his prosthesis gadgets. There is a whole group of children that
>Vic works with that are handicapped and who use the gadgets. I don't
>know what issue of the New Teen Titans that they were introduced, but I'm
>pretty sure it was an early one.
It was during Titans #6 or 7 or so, when Cyborg first met Sarah.
I'd guess that at least some of the technology used to rebuild
Vic is/was pretty experimental and fairly dangerous to use on a normal
handicapped person. Victor would have died if he hadnt been rebuilt
(both the first time and recently), but a normal handicapped person
might not want to take that risk. Also some of the technology
may be unavailable to civilians : classified or simply too expensive.
But some of it is available, as you say ...
>
>Your point is, however, well taken. The Justice League built a sattelite with
>advandced technology ( Kryptonian and Thangarian ) that wasn't shared with
>the rest of the world.
This is actually symbolic of a larger problem : that the DC earth bears
a great similarity history-wise to ours despite the presence of so many costumed
heroes, gods, demons etc. Advanced technology has many spinoffs and
its hard to believe that the rest of the DC earth would still be stuck
technologically at the same level as our earth when such advanced
technology is available. For instance, the Ethiopian famine should
not have taken place on the DC Earth. Even Superman or a Green Lantern should
be able to stop that. Not to mention Swamp thing who could end all famine/hunger
on Earth. Or a Spectre who at full power could do literally anything.
Ditto for Marvel : if Richards can whip up a gadget to cure Galactus
in 5 minutes, its hard to believe that he cant wipe out problems like pollution,
hunger etc. on Earth in ( lets be generous) one week.
Watchmen shows a much more realistic view. The presence of just one Super-being,
Doc. Manhattan, had major effects on history and technology (For instance, they had
non-polluting automobiles ....)
Abhijit
DCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
I have a possible solution to the old JLA's problem. Emerald Dawn I
retconned Kilowog and Hal's first meeting to Hal's early GL days. (Before, we
were lead to belive that they met when when Ch'p (uggh) and company all
relocated to Earth). Since Wogsy became the JLE's High Tech expert, he seems
to be the only one who could fix their transporter tubes, after the had fried
Animal Man's luggage in JLE #1.
The reason he could fix them so easily? He built them years ago!
When the JLA was preparing their satellite HQ, Hal recruited his old trainer
to outfit the satellite with an easy access to the surface. The two GLs could
have easily carried the completed satellite into orbit. The Atom could have
designed most of the satellite himself. If not, they could have gotten help
from Rann, which, so far, has not been reconned out of the Leagues history.
If you don't buy that, there is also the teleporter which brought J'onn
J'onnz from Mars ( the Martian manhunter series from a few years ago). Also,
I think Despero used a teleorter weapon against the League in one of their earl
iest stories.
These are just theories mind you
"It's an imaginary story, but aren't they all?"
Captain Thunder!
qquit
psumenu
DCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
The Swamp Thing is not omnipotent and could not hope to change the
entire climate of Ethiopia. Remember, his fellow elemental, Firestorm tried
to do just that and failed. Also, the Spectre's powers are currently limited
to animating objects. Also, even if he did try to solve problems like hunger,
The Voice (i.e. God) would probably stop him from upsetting some kind of
cosmic balence or another.
Furthermore, technologies such as the JLI's transport tube could be used
in devasting effects. Imagine if those hardliners in Russia last week decided
to beam a nuke to Gorbachev's or Bush's doorstop.
"It's an imaginary story, but aren't they all?"
Dan W.
G. Host
Keywords:
> Article <91241.004...@psuvm.psu.edu> From: DCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
> I have a possible solution to the old JLA's problem. Emerald Dawn I
> retconned Kilowog and Hal's first meeting to Hal's early GL days. (Before, we
> were lead to belive that they met when when Ch'p (uggh) and company all
> relocated to Earth). Since Wogsy became the JLE's High Tech expert, he seems
> to be the only one who could fix their transporter tubes, after the had fried
> Animal Man's luggage in JLE #1.
I dont remember the first appearance of Kilowog in Green Lantern despite
having a complete run of the third series, but I did not the impression
that Kilowog and Hal were just introduced for the first time then.
> The reason he could fix them so easily? He built them years ago!
> When the JLA was preparing their satellite HQ, Hal recruited his old trainer
> to outfit the satellite with an easy access to the surface. The two GLs could
> have easily carried the completed satellite into orbit. The Atom could have
> designed most of the satellite himself. If not, they could have gotten help
> from Rann, which, so far, has not been retconned out of the Leagues history.
This is what I was looking for!
Retcons which actually help keep the Justice League possible.
Kilowog was known for making high-tech items from and with his ring
(Big difference here! We dont want Satellite to fade away when Kilowog
is on vacation)
so is a perfect candidate for helping the JL
The Atom was a nuclear scientist with background in physics;
I don't believe Ray Palmer had an engineering background.
But of course we never (?) knew what his bachelors degree was.
Perhaps he was a space engineer and was even on the net :-)
Rann? I dont think Rann had a transporter in the convential sense.
Just the Zeta Beam.
> If you don't buy that, there is also the teleporter which brought J'onn
> J'onnz from Mars ( the Martian manhunter series from a few years ago). Also,
> I think Despero used a teleorter weapon against the League in one of their
> earliest stories.
Possible; but the current retconned Martian Manhunter is more of philosopher
than a scientist.
> These are just theories mind you
Additional note:
I have received a number of messages regarding my mention of three
incarnations of the JL. Most people only remember two (lucky them).
The three incarnations of the Justice League are:
1. Original JLA - Founded by Flash, Martian Manhunter, GL, BC and Aquaman
2. Joke League America - Founded by Aquaman after disbanding the
original league (with Vivbe, Steel, Gypsy and Steel)
3. Joker League International/America/Europe - current incarnation
DCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>having a complete run of the third series, but I did not the impression
>that Kilowog and Hal were just introduced for the first time then.
>
seiries with the name Green Lantern Corps (right after the Guardians
left the universe)
>Kilowog was known for making high-tech items from and with his ring
>(Big difference here! We dont want Satellite to fade away when Kilowog
>is on vacation)
Wogsy has shown in Justice League Quarterly, that he can build stuff
without his ring
>
>The Atom was a nuclear scientist with background in physics;
>I don't believe Ray Palmer had an engineering background.
>But of course we never (?) knew what his bachelors degree was.
>Perhaps he was a space engineer and was even on the net :-)
>
In comics, scientist and engineer are almost interchangeable
Martin Stein is supposedly a physics but his work on that ill-fated
nuclear reactor falls more along the line of a nuclear engineer's work.
>
>> If you don't buy that, there is also the teleporter which brought n
>J'on
>> J'onnz from Mars ( the Martian manhunter series from a few years ago).
>Also,
>> I think Despero used a teleorter weapon against the League in one of their
>> earliest stories.
>
>
>Possible; but the current retconned Martian Manhunter is more of philosopher
>than a scientist.
>
The big green guy didn't make the the teleporter, an Earth scientist named
Professor Zee did.
"Everybody's got someting to hide, cept for me and my monkey" The Beatles
"Sometimes word ahve two meanings" Led Zeppelin
"Don't take life too seriously, because there's no warranty" me
Dan "the man from the far reaches of the unknown" W.
I shall go distracted.
>> >Ok, we've talked about overweight and flat-chested characters. How
>> >many handicapped characters can we come up with? A couple to start
>> >off with: Doctor Mid-Nite (blind) and Barbara ("Oracle/Batgirl")
>> >Gordon (paralyzed).
Dunno if this thread ever died before mentioning...Daredevil! Not even *close*
to being one of my faves, but Matt Murdock *is* blind.
And so is Daredevil.
---Chet Zeshonski
THANOS IS SUPREME
rs_r...@stat.appstate.edu
Jonathan Coxhead
Handicapped characters so far:
Dr Mid-Nite (forgot his name!!)
Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
Daredevil (Matthew Murdock)
also:
Dr Midnight (from Infinity Inc - forgot her name too!)
... and who could forgot the issue of Justice League of America where they
were all handicapped ... Superman was blind, Flash was in a wheelchair,
Green Arrow had no arms (!), etc, etc (if my memory is working well). Of
course, they still *won,* because they were *heroes.* (Indeed - it was
*that* plotline. The same as the one where Superman loses his powers, seen
every couple of years.)
In case you're wondering, Green Arrow lay on his back and pulled his bow
with his teeth. Honest, I'm not making this up!
P S: Stamp out 'Re: '!
/|
(_|/
/|
(_/
none
Tony Stark used to be a walking iron lung case (alright, inconvienced, not
really handicapped...)
Wasn't Madame Web (from Spiderman) blind as well?
Cyborg from Teen Titans was handicapped (missing a few limbs) but had some
nifty replacements.
Guy Gardner is handicapped. Definitley 8>
Marty Ward
>... and who could forgot the issue of Justice League of America where they
>were all handicapped
> In case you're wondering, Green Arrow lay on his back and pulled his bow
>with his teeth. Honest, I'm not making this up!
Well, he did pull draw the bowstring with his teeth in THE DARK KNIGHT
RETURNS.
--
= Marty Ward, Jodrey School of Computer Science
= Acadia University, Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
= E-mail: 860...@aucs.acadiau.ca UUCP: ...!cs.dal.ca!aucs!860099w
= ...because after reading CEREBUS, everthing else is just comics.
Catherine C. Huse
>
> Handicapped characters so far:
>
> Dr Mid-Nite (forgot his name!!)
> Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
> Daredevil (Matthew Murdock)
Destiny of Freedom Force was blind.
--kender :)
*******************************************************************************
Catherine Huse / InterNet: ken...@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
31 North Main St. /----------------------------------------------------------
Hanover, NH 03755 / "What does an actor want with a conscience anyway?"
(603) 643-5716 / --Jiminy Cricket, _Pinocchio_
Ken Goach
Doom Patrol.
ken
---
-------------------------------------------------------------
THIS POSTING DOES NOT REPRESENT THE OPINIONS OF MY EMPLOYERS.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Q: How many guitarists does it take to change a
lightbulb?
A: Twenty-one. One to change the bulb and 20 to
watch and say "Oh, I can do that."
-------------------------------------------------------------
"I was. I was, you know, I was. I was kind of angry and I
think I was, you know, I felt frustrated and I felt, you
know, sort of embarrassed and disappointed at the time."
-Bruce Springsteen, explaining why he fined a
roadie 1 week's pay
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Moore
>> Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
>> Daredevil (Matthew Murdock)
>> Dr Midnight (from Infinity Inc - forgot her name too!)
>Destiny of Freedom Force was blind.
The owl (spider man) can't walk.
Mad Uncle
Jonathan D. Lyness
k...@batman.austin.ibm.com (Ken Goach):
>I hope someone has mentioned the various members of the
>Doom Patrol.
well, in a sense, the above comment could apply to the "most killed
character" discussion, right? :) Anyone remember D.P.(old series) #121?
:)
-jon
Peter C. Sun
>>
>> Dr Mid-Nite (forgot his name!!)
>> Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
>> Daredevil (Matthew Murdock)
>> Dr Midnight (from Infinity Inc - forgot her name too!)
>
>Destiny of Freedom Force was blind.
>
Shroud is blind
Dr. Fuastus(sp?) was/is confined to a wheelchair( i think)
Professor X. in the ol' wheelchair again
Black Crow is confined to a wheelchair when "normal"
Hawkeye (Clint Barton (?)) is almost deaf
--
The above comments are not those of Peter Sun but are those of
Greg Mowczko (Mooch). Remember if you can question your sanity
your probably fine. I know I can't.
Elisabeth Riba
>In article <97...@acorn.co.uk> JCox...@acorn.co.uk (Jonathan Coxhead) writes:
>>
>> Handicapped characters so far:
>>
>> Dr Mid-Nite (forgot his name!!)
>> Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
>> Daredevil (Matthew Murdock)
>> Dr Midnight (from Infinity Inc - forgot her name too!)
>Destiny of Freedom Force was blind.
And, Hover of Hero Alliance...
--
--------------------------> l...@cs.brandeis.edu <--------------------------
"I am of pliant, supple whalebone made,
And you are glue; the insults that you hurl Romeo_&_Juliet, V iii 420-423
Bounce off my buoyant frame and stick to you!" (The_Book_Of_Sequels)