Hatred Toward Liz
SueW
shown toward Liz because she lives with her parents? Newsflash, it's a
common thing these days. I lived with my parents until I was 33, (yes I paid
rent and all my own bills) for a variety of reasons. I've now got a place of
my own and am soon to be married. Am I also deserving of the hatred and
vitrol?
Belphoebe
I think much of the Liz-directed criticism stems from her having appeared to
have chosen to move back in with her parents, when she's demonstrated that
she *could* live on her own (she has before). Then, having chosen to live
with her family, she complains about her living situation, as if it's
something that happened *to* her rather than something she actively caused.
--
Belphoebe
Chris H. of Portland, OR
news:mkPuh.474896$Fi1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Yes.
--
Chris H. of Portland, Oregon
Konichiwa, Bitches!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUuIzw8X46Q
CMcL...@midsouth.rr.com
<chris...@comcast.FUCKOFFSPAMMERS.net> wrote:
> "SueW" <sue....@nospam.att.net> wrote in messagenews:mkPuh.474896$Fi1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> > Why is such hatred(such as "Move out of your parent's house, BITCH") being
> > shown toward Liz because she lives with her parents? Newsflash, it's a
> > common thing these days. I lived with my parents until I was 33, (yes I
> > paid
> > rent and all my own bills) for a variety of reasons. I've now got a place
> > of
> > my own and am soon to be married. Am I also deserving of the hatred and
> > vitrol?
>Yes.
Dang, you beat me to it! BTW, "bitch" wasn't in capitals in my
original post.
CMcL...@midsouth.rr.com
> SueW wrote:
> > Why is such hatred(such as "Move out of your parent's house, BITCH")
> > being shown toward Liz because she lives with her parents? Newsflash,
> > it's a common thing these days. I lived with my parents until I was
> > 33, (yes I paid rent and all my own bills) for a variety of reasons.
> > I've now got a place of my own and am soon to be married. Am I also
> have chosen to move back in with her parents, when she's demonstrated that
> she *could* live on her own (she has before). Then, having chosen to live
> with her family, she complains about her living situation, as if it's
> something that happened *to* her rather than something she actively caused.
Also, now that the Delicate Genius and his family have moved in, April
is displaced down to the basement while Liz, who could get her own
place (as could the DG and family), has her own bedroom.
racs...@gmail.com
That, combined with (A) Usenet's joy-of-piling-on and (B)
insensitivity to nuance.
The (B) factor is that Johnston makes a JOKE, people -- Liz makes a
very public thing of her broken heart, but then objects to April
getting into her private life. Why? Because April isn't saying "poor
baby, poor baby" but is actually trying to give her some thoughtful
input.
The joke is that we've all known people who poured out their hearts,
but only to get sympathy. As soon as someone begins to give actual
advice or (heavens forfend!) call them on their bullshit, then it
becomes an invasion of their privacy and how dare you?
When I was 19, I had one of those terrible post-adolescent events
where the woman I loved and my best friend/roommate .. well, you know
the old story. About six weeks later, one of the women in my circle
sat me down and observed -- rather pointedly -- that everyone would
have been extremely sympathetic to me if I had just had the good taste
to be wounded and destroyed and otherwise shut the hell up and stopped
playing the Ancient Mariner with my tale of woe. As it was, they were
more sick of hearing about it than they were sorry for my plight. That
little mini-lecture was a greater life lesson than the original
betrayal.
Nietzsche said something about how a person who complains of his
problems is actually taking pleasure in them. The problem is,
Nietzsche is so consistently right-on that it's hard to find a
specific quote when you need it. But, in any case, I think that's
where Liz is right now.
And I think Lynn knows it and is having some fun with it. Everyone
should unclench and watch the show.
Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org
<racs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That, combined with (A) Usenet's joy-of-piling-on and (B)
> insensitivity to nuance.
I don't "hate[]" Liz a bit, but those of us who left our homes at an
early age and never moved back in do tend to have a little distaste
for the current trend (whether mythical or real, though I think the
latter) of "boomeranging." I can see where some of that comes out
toward Liz. Why the hell isn't she even *looking* for a place?
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
LNER...@juno.com
> > That, combined with (A) Usenet's joy-of-piling-on and (B)
> early age and never moved back in do tend to have a little distaste
> for the current trend (whether mythical or real, though I think the
> latter) of "boomeranging."
*Two factors to consider:
1) This practice has always been around; would you have the same
snarky reaction to someone moving home to look after an aging parent
or two that needed just a little help now and then?
2) the idiotically overinflated real estate and rental market of the
past few years puts a whole different perspective on this kind of
thing. When there are claustrophobic (500 sq. ft.) rowhouses in
horrible parts of cities renting for $1,000 a month and students that
need little more than a place to plug in the microwave and laptop and
a place to plop the milkcrates being charged $600/month for little
more than a bedroom and bathroom, I can see the willingness to go back
to a family situation. I can even see the temporary situation of Mike
and Deanna becoming a nightmare as they can't find anything that they
can live with in their price range (yeah, yeah, start harping on how
much Deanna is supposed to be making), while dealing with the jobs,
the kids, etc.--good god, how do they have time to *look*?
I can see where some of that comes out
> toward Liz. Why the hell isn't she even *looking* for a place?
*Have we heard that she has a job offer, and where?
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, <LNER...@juno.com> wrote:
> > I don't "hate[]" Liz a bit, but those of us who left our homes at
> > an early age and never moved back in do tend to have a little
> > distaste for the current trend (whether mythical or real, though I
> > think the latter) of "boomeranging."
>
> *Two factors to consider:
I didn't say it was entirely fair, or even rational -- just that the
reaction is natural.
> > I can see where some of that comes out toward Liz. Why the hell
> > isn't she even *looking* for a place?
>
> *Have we heard that she has a job offer, and where?
As I recall it, she moved home *because* she got a regular, full-time
teaching job near her parents' house. No one I know would look
askance at her moving back in for a few weeks while she finds her
feet, but a full-time employed adult living at home in a situation
where the too-small house is also taking in her brother's distressed
family[1]? Inexcusable.
[1] Got my issues with that B.S., too, but the Subject: line says we
have to deal with Liz.
Peter B. Steiger
> Also, now that the Delicate Genius and his family have moved in, April is
> displaced down to the basement while Liz, who could get her own place (as
> could the DG and family), has her own bedroom.
... which is why April now wanders around muttering to herself, "I believe
you have my red stapler..."
--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY
If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes
where you see stars: wypbs_**2 at steigerfamily.com.
James Nicoll
J.D. Baldwin <ne...@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>In the previous article, <LNER...@juno.com> wrote:
>> > I don't "hate[]" Liz a bit, but those of us who left our homes at
>> > an early age and never moved back in do tend to have a little
>> > distaste for the current trend (whether mythical or real, though I
>> > think the latter) of "boomeranging."
>>
>> *Two factors to consider:
>
>I didn't say it was entirely fair, or even rational -- just that the
>reaction is natural.
>
>> > I can see where some of that comes out toward Liz. Why the hell
>> > isn't she even *looking* for a place?
>>
>> *Have we heard that she has a job offer, and where?
>
>As I recall it, she moved home *because* she got a regular, full-time
>teaching job near her parents' house. No one I know would look
>askance at her moving back in for a few weeks while she finds her
>feet, but a full-time employed adult living at home in a situation
>where the too-small house is also taking in her brother's distressed
>family[1]? Inexcusable.
>
And just to refresh people's minds, teachers in Ontario earn
between 38K and 70+K per year. Liz has been a teacher for how long now?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Jym Dyer
> back in do tend to have a little distaste for the current trend (whether
> mythical or real, though I think the latter) of "boomeranging."
=v= The "distaste" ought to be for the state of the economy that
is the root cause of the trend.
=v= Of course, the economy's always peachy in Foobistan, thus
the hatin' on Liz from all right-thinking non-boomerangers. :-/
<_Jym_>
Cindy Kandolf
> Also, now that the Delicate Genius and his family have moved in, April
> is displaced down to the basement while Liz, who could get her own
> place (as could the DG and family), has her own bedroom.
I'm not going to join in on the Lizbashing, but yeah, this bit gets to
me. If this were a real life family that I knew, I'd be allying
myself with the teen. Kicking a teenager out of her (or his) room
ought to be a last resort, not the easy solution. Everything else in
her world is changing unpredictably, including her own body and her
own mind, and she needs a private, consistent place to come home to as
a refuge from the storms. I know that sounds dramatic; adolescence
*is* a drama, it's just that nobody but the adolescent really sees the
stage.
Of course, we also see in today's strip
http://www.gocomics.com/forbetterorforworse/2007/01/28/
that Elly's not happy about all the arrangements, either, at least not
when they effect her. Elly, hon, treat yourself to a proper ice
scraper - those little plastic widgets on the end of snow brushes are
absolutely useless. And face up to the fact that since you're retired,
you're the least likely to have to rush off in the mornings... leaving
your car outside makes a heck of a lot more sense than banishing a
teenager to "the dungeon of the house" and letting an outsider pile
crap in her space.
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
flodmail: ci...@nethelp.no flodhome: Bærum, Norway
flodweb: http://www.flodnak.com/
James Nicoll
bad career choices and poor investments. Reminds me of my aunt's
family, actually (In that particular way, I mean. The Pattersons
lack other defining elements of my aunt's family, like the idea
that running around a lake is a good way to wake up).
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address>
wrote:
> > Also, now that the Delicate Genius and his family have moved in,
> > April is displaced down to the basement while Liz, who could get her
> > own place (as could the DG and family), has her own bedroom.
>
> ... which is why April now wanders around muttering to herself, "I
> believe you have my red stapler..."
So *she* set the fire at Lovey's apartment!
Veronique
Could be.
I think the vitriol towards Liz (and the strip in general) has evolved
from the arbitrariness of the plot. The entire Mtigiwacky adventure
set Liz up to be independent; when she decided to move back home, it
seemed to come out of nowhere.
I'm still confused as to why Lynn feels she has to follow the adult
children's stories minutely; I think she could have left Liz in
Mtigiwhatthehecky and focused on Elly and John-- and their
relationship with Liz, as Liz returned for a visit or through letters,
but concentrating on the details as seen from Toronto. Another
complaint about the strip has been how plot points are never resolved
in-strip--- you have to read the monthly letters on the website. So
instead of following the amatory adventures of Liz, or the Mike's
writer's cramp, perhaps the strip itself would have been better served
to remain with Elly as the primary focus, and let the interactions
play out from that viewpoint, rather than forcing characters that had
been carefully developed to behave unnaturally in order to "pull them
back to the homestead."
Honestly, a story wherein Liz's teaching in Mtigfaruppy HADN'T worked
out, whether because of cultural differences (hey, it happens) or
inability to adapt to the weather or other perfectly reasonable
explanations (or unreasonable-- maybe she and Paul were caught nekkid
by students or something) and having to return home to regroup and
rethink would have been a more interesting plotline. The improbably
Paul-Warren-Helicopter thang just exacerbates the unreality.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Carl Fink
> Honestly, a story wherein Liz's teaching in Mtigfaruppy HADN'T worked
> out, whether because of cultural differences (hey, it happens) or
> inability to adapt to the weather or other perfectly reasonable
> explanations (or unreasonable-- maybe she and Paul were caught nekkid
> by students or something) and having to return home to regroup and
> rethink would have been a more interesting plotline. The improbably
> Paul-Warren-Helicopter thang just exacerbates the unreality.
In all fairness, implausible melodrama has long been a hallmark of FBOFW.
For instance, the "John and Phil get lost in the woods and rescued" story.
Granted, to my mind these are generally the less-successful stories, they're
hardly new.
--
Carl Fink nitpi...@nitpicking.com
Read my blog at nitpickingblog.blogspot.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still confused as to why Lynn feels she has to follow the adult
> children's stories minutely; I think she could have left Liz in
> Mtigiwhatthehecky and focused on Elly and John-- and their
> relationship with Liz, as Liz returned for a visit or through
> letters, but concentrating on the details as seen from Toronto.
They don't live in Toronto; they live in Milborough (?), which I take
to be about the same rural-urban mix as London, Ontario.
As for your main point, I suspect a strip that's all about John and
Elly as they plan their retirement, future trips to Florida, Grandpa-
care issues, etc., would simply be dull as dishwater. Plus, Lynn
Johnston seems to have a strong "Sunrise, Sunset" view of the New
Patterson Generation. Let the old folks crawl off to the golf course
to die, and follow the kids as they set out into the world. (And from
a dramatic / artistic point of view, that's very much a reasonable
choice.)
> Another complaint about the strip has been how plot points are never
> resolved in-strip---
Getting sued, for example, is one pretty freakin' huge Life Event, and
I don't believe we ever revisisted what the hell happened with that
whole Kortney episode.
James Nicoll
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>On Jan 27, 1:18 pm, "SueW" <sue....@nospam.att.net> wrote:
>> Why is such hatred(such as "Move out of your parent's house, BITCH") being
>> shown toward Liz because she lives with her parents? Newsflash, it's a
>> common thing these days. I lived with my parents until I was 33, (yes I paid
>> rent and all my own bills) for a variety of reasons. I've now got a place of
>> my own and am soon to be married. Am I also deserving of the hatred and
>> vitrol?
>
>Could be.
>
>I think the vitriol towards Liz (and the strip in general) has evolved
>from the arbitrariness of the plot.
At the risk of venturing into Laurell K. Hamilton territory [1]
by acting as though a character was flesh and blood and not dependent on
the writer for existance, a lot of what Liz does doesn't seem to come from
her character but the desire for the author to push her in a given direction.
Accordingly, and yes, I know exactly how wacked out this is going to sound,
my gut reaction is that she's a victim of bad writing, not of her inherent
flaws and therefore she gets sympathy from me that objectively I can't
justify offering the character. If that makes sense.
1: http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/2006/12/dear-negative-reader.html
The moral is never, ever reply to negative reviews.
Carl Fink
> 1: http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/2006/12/dear-negative-reader.html
Wow, that page left me with literal phosphene lines across my vision that
made it hard to read for a full minute after I closed it.
It's also a moderately self-indulgent thing to write, though Hamilton is
entitled to indulge herself once in a while.
I review the latest Anite Blake book here:
http://nitpickingblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/danse-macabre-by-laurell-k-hamilton.html
I think I'm negative without falling into Hamilton's assumed fallacies.
A. Mayuzumi
On 1月28日, 午前6:28, "Belphoebe" <Belpho...@Belphoebe.net> wrote:
> I think much of the Liz-directed criticism stems from her having appeared to
> have chosen to move back in with her parents, when she's demonstrated that
> she *could* live on her own (she has before). Then, having chosen to live
> with her family, she complains about her living situation, as if it's
> something that happened *to* her rather than something she actively caused.
That, plus while she claims to pay rent, she also seems to have just
jumped right back into her teenage life, without helping around the
house, and just coming downstairs to meals that Mom makes (and
actually thinking to herself in a thought bubble "it seems like I
never left!"
while walking down the stairs to dinner, in one strip).
Plenty of people live in multi-generational households all over
the world, but usually their roles change somewhat when they assume
the "adult" phase. We don't see Liz pooling her income with the rest
of the family earners (John, I guess, at this point) or anything
along those lines.
In the letters, which I'll admit I read, but maybe you don't want to
take them as canon, John complains that Liz isn't helping
around the house either. But, I also sort of got the feeling
that Elly at least sort of revels in Liz coming back to the kid-state.
--
A. Mayuzumi
racs...@gmail.com
On Jan 28, 6:12 pm, dagbr...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) wrote:
> In article <1169945324.107285.69...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
>
> <LNER4...@juno.com> wrote:
> > 2) the idiotically overinflated real estate and rental market of the
> > past few years puts a whole different perspective on this kind of
> > thing. When there are claustrophobic (500 sq. ft.) rowhouses in
> > horrible parts of cities renting for $1,000 a monthWow. A *house*? For $1000 a month? And 500 sq ft of vast space to
> live in? Man, I wish I lived in a bargainsville like tha.
>
> --Dave (in the Tokyo area, $600/mo gets me a 235 sq. ft. *apartment*)
$650 a month.
<http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com/2007/01/this-picturesque-little-snow-
covered.html>
Of course, local payscales are in line with that. But it's still a
nice place to be a renter.
Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com
A. Mayuzumi
On 1月29日, 午前8:12, dagbr...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) wrote:
> Man, I wish I lived in a bargainsville like that.
>
> --Dave (in the Tokyo area, $600/mo gets me a 235 sq. ft. *apartment*)
I used to rent a 6-mats room with no toilet or bath in an ancient
building
in Tokyo (kita-ku) for... I suppose $300 a month equivalent (4man), in
1991. It got
sun, though, and was 5 minutes walk from the train, 2 minutes if that
from the
public bathhouse, so pretty good for what it was, I suppose. The main
complaint was the ventilation was horrible and the walls only
whitewashed,
so when I cooked (it had a 1m square "kitchen" inside the front door)
water would condense and mildew up so I mostly had to cook with
the door cracked open in winter. Plus the city bathhouses at the
time were $3 a pop or so, it added up. But the neighbors were
friendly. Ah, the studying life.
But now? I own a house in IL, which is 1000 square feet with
no yard, but all mine, paid, it was cheap cheap. People say
it's small, but for me, it's huge. Particularly right after returning
from a trip to Japan, it REALLY feels huge! Granted it's
not in the crossroads of cool.
On the other hand I've seen the same house as mine (it was
a popular bungalow house you could buy from Sears, with
slight modifications since 1912) in California, Palo Alto,
and told they go for over a million dollars. Location
definitely matters, I guess...
I've rented rooms in the US too, for $200 ish, though they
had better bathroom access. The kitchen happiness factor
definitely varied depending on the other renters and their
views on dishwashing.
If Liz REALLY can't stand living with mom, she has options!
--
A. Mayuzumi
Mike Beede
Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
> On 2007-01-28, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > 1: http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/2006/12/dear-negative-reader.html
>
> Wow, that page left me with literal phosphene lines across my vision that
> made it hard to read for a full minute after I closed it.
I read a little of it. I've never heard of her before. Apparently
she writes vampire books. Lots of vampire books. She seems
to be the Steven King of vampire books.
She writes at one point something to the effect of "there are only
three people in the world that hate my books everyone else buys
my books sometimes they buy three or four copies each because
they love me love me love me."
Well, make that four people, and I'm pretty sure my neighbor
never buys them either.
Mike Beede
Carl Fink
> I read a little of it. I've never heard of her before. Apparently
> she writes vampire books. Lots of vampire books. She seems
> to be the Steven King of vampire books.
Stephen King is the Stephen King of vampire books.
Dann
news:slrnerr86...@panix2.panix.com.
> On 2007-01-29, Mike Beede <be...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> I read a little of it. I've never heard of her before. Apparently
>> she writes vampire books. Lots of vampire books. She seems
>> to be the Steven King of vampire books.
>
> Stephen King is the Stephen King of vampire books.
Did someone mention Stephen King?? <grin>
Up jumps the devil!
More seriously, Mr. King deals with a much broader range of horrors. Of
course there are vampires in his novels from time to time, but that isn't
the limit of his range.
If someone is going to be the "Stephen King of vampire books" then I
would nominate Anne Rice. As she was certainly prolific with respect to
writing books about the lives....or unlives....of vampires.
As for Ms. Hamilton's work? I've read it. It isn't my speed. I've
taken her advice even before she thought to give it. Pity she didn't
stop after the first 2 or 3 paragraphs.
Regards,
Dann
James Nicoll
Mike Beede <be...@visi.com> wrote:
>In article <slrnerq3or...@panix2.panix.com>,
> Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2007-01-28, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > 1: http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/2006/12/dear-negative-reader.html
>>
>> Wow, that page left me with literal phosphene lines across my vision that
>> made it hard to read for a full minute after I closed it.
>
>I read a little of it. I've never heard of her before. Apparently
>she writes vampire books. Lots of vampire books. She seems
>to be the Steven King of vampire books.
She started off wanting to write sword & sorcery but the market
for that isn't what it used to be [1].
It took her a couple of books to find out what the readers
wanted and that was Anita Blake. The first few Blakes are an occult
detective series: Anita has special powers and she uses them to solve
cases.
At some point Anita went from "conflicted prude with naughty
urges that make her feel guilty" to "set libido to 11". The plots
started to get pushed aside by the sex. For people who joined up
for the occult detective stuff, this was an unwelcome or at least
uninteresting change. For people who joined on for hot necromancer
on vampire on werewolf action, it's just what they want.
She also has a series about an elf princess called Meredith
Gentry, a series that has always been about the sex. In fact, the
one report on one of the Merry books that I did had the phrase "Everyone
has sex with Merry to celebrate," several times.
Allegedly the screaming match that that entry is part of is
due in part to Hamilton surrounding herself with sycophants, which makes
the occasion contact with people who don't like the current series even
more of a shock than it could be.
1: As I recall, the main market for S&S suffered significant reverses soon
after she began the novel writing phase of her career so from her POV it's
just as well that she didn't go in that direction.
In fact, even if she had done novels for TSR (and she'd done short
stories), TSR at that time had a strict no stars policy, which means that
if her books got too popular, they would have dropped her.
I know what some of you are thinking. "Isn't punishing authors
for being too popular counter-productive?" That's one reason why TSR
went belly-up in 1996.
Julia
categories. So are Left Behind books. Go figure.
Julia
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:epkvkp$cm2$1...@reader2.panix.com...
ronniecat
03:45:08 GMT, "Julia" <juli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I work at a used book store. Paranormal romance is one of our best selling
>categories. So are Left Behind books. Go figure.
>
>Julia
I knew the "left behind" books were huge sellers, but that didn't
prepare me for seeing this at the Future Shop on Saturday:
I almost bought it for the box text alone, which I regret to admit I
found tremendously amusing for all the wrong reasons.
ronnie
James Nicoll
Julia <juli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I work at a used book store. Paranormal romance is one of our best selling
>categories.
Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
In fact, I was describing on my LJ account the odd coincidence of a
background detail that turned up in two successive manuscripts* I had been
sent (both had the re-appearance of magic having roughly the same effect
on society as a small nuclear war) and Ilona Andrews, who had just joined
my LJ, observed that _her_ upcoming book from Ace had the same background
detail.
This was less surprising than it could have been because one of
the two books I was talking about was hers. I had mentioned getting it
but she didn't start reading my LJ until shortly afterwards.
* I get weird coincidences in runs of books all the time, stuff like getting
half a dozen books in a row where horrible nightmarish families pop up in all
of them.
nickelshrink
"ronniecat" <ronn...@mycollar.ronniecat.com> wrote in message news:98hur21tpq9hljfdp...@4ax.com...
Ooo! You mean you hadn't heard about this delightful game?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL&type=printable
--
pax
ruth
--
Save trees AND money! Buy used books!
http://stores.ebay.com/Noir-and-More-Books-and-Trains
(remove fspam to reply)
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, nickelshrink <nickelsh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Ooo! You mean you hadn't heard about this delightful game?
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL&type=printable
So, these people are up in arms about a game in which the object is to
kill people for Jesus, but the games in which pimps kill people for
disrespecting their hoes haven't triggered their outrage threshold?
nickelshrink
"J.D. Baldwin" <INVALID...@example.com.invalid> wrote in message news:epo9ga$3s9$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> In the previous article, nickelshrink <nickelsh...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Ooo! You mean you hadn't heard about this delightful game?
>>
>> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL&type=printable
>
> So, these people are up in arms about a game in which the object is to
> kill people for Jesus, but the games in which pimps kill people for
> disrespecting their hoes haven't triggered their outrage threshold?
Good point but i'm not sure that there is *not* overlap
between, say, the GTA protesters and the Left Behind
protesters.
I can't exactly say that a game that teaches people that
Jesus wants them to kill for him is worse than GTA...
No. Wait, yes i can.
No, i can't. It's all inexcuseable. But.
Shit, i don't know. It does seem worse to me.
A. because Eternal Forces is not only sold with the blessing
of fundamentalist parents, it is actively encouraged by them.
B. because it perverts the Christian faith in a manner that
i think is more dangerous than merely helping people
get their killing rocks off, and don't get me wrong -
killing-for-fun games are perverted themselves.
But this perverts Christianity in 2 ways.
1. "Hoo-wee! It's OK to kill! He likes it! hey, Jesus!"
2. It makes non-Christians think this vile mindset is part
of the true faith and is thereby an *anti*-evangelical tool if
there ever was one.
This has nothing to do with whether you (or i) believe that
end-time events will unfold as they do in the game. To *make*
it a game. To-- what? "Help" your children be ready to mow
down the people Jesus "wants" them to? Is this really doing
their kids a favor, even if they believe in it?
It boggles my mind.
--
pax
ruth
--
Save trees AND money! Buy used books!
http://stores.ebay.com/Noir-and-More-Books-and-Trains
(remove fspam to reply)
Peter Trei
> "J.D. Baldwin" <INVALID...@example.com.invalid> wrote in message news:epo9ga$3s9$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> In the previous article, nickelshrink <nickelsh...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Ooo! You mean you hadn't heard about this delightful game?
>>>
>>> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL&type=printable
>> So, these people are up in arms about a game in which the object is to
>> kill people for Jesus, but the games in which pimps kill people for
>> disrespecting their hoes haven't triggered their outrage threshold?
> I can't exactly say that a game that teaches people that
> Jesus wants them to kill for him is worse than GTA...
> No. Wait, yes i can.
[...]
> B. because it perverts the Christian faith in a manner that
> i think is more dangerous than merely helping people
> get their killing rocks off, and don't get me wrong -
> killing-for-fun games are perverted themselves.
> But this perverts Christianity in 2 ways.
> 1. "Hoo-wee! It's OK to kill! He likes it! hey, Jesus!"
> 2. It makes non-Christians think this vile mindset is part
> of the true faith and is thereby an *anti*-evangelical tool if
> there ever was one.
[...]
> It boggles my mind.
Indeed. How would we react to a (hypothetical, I think) Muslim
version, in which you converted infidels to the True Faith or
killed them?
Peter Trei
Rob Wynne
Well your video game won't get you into Heaven anymore
Even if you beat the end boss and recorded the high score
Y'see, Jesus don't like killing, even in a virtual war
So your video game won't get you into Heaven anymore
(with apologies to John Prine)
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2007: Jan 5-7, 2007 -- Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org/
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Peter Trei <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Indeed. How would we react to a (hypothetical, I think) Muslim
> version, in which you converted infidels to the True Faith or
> killed them?
That one would probably cause violence in my own household, as my son
and I would fight for the game controller.
Seriously ... there's probably a BIG market for that one.
Mike Beede
INVALID...@example.com.invalid (J.D. Baldwin) wrote:
> In the previous article, nickelshrink <nickelsh...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Ooo! You mean you hadn't heard about this delightful game?
> >
> > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL&type=printable
>
> So, these people are up in arms about a game in which the object is to
> kill people for Jesus, but the games in which pimps kill people for
> disrespecting their hoes haven't triggered their outrage threshold?
Few civilizations have been seriously affected by pimps running wild
and killing people. That isn't really true for religious war. But
I expect that it's that little frisson (however the hell you spell that
word) of hypocrisy that they're homing in on.
Actually the nice part about _Grease 'Em For Jesus_ is that with minor
changes you can sell it to Islamics, Hindus, and pretty much anyone
else. For instance, comic strip fans.
"You must either convert the people you meet to fans of FBOFW or
kill them. Killing them costs you `fan points' which you can only
regain by Mike's novel. Said president John Doe, "this is
a pretty serious inducement to practice conversion. We haven't
actually had any play testers adopt a long-term strategy involving
killing."
Mike Beede
Peter Trei
> In the previous article, Peter Trei <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Indeed. How would we react to a (hypothetical, I think) Muslim
>> version, in which you converted infidels to the True Faith or
>> killed them?
>
> That one would probably cause violence in my own household, as my son
> and I would fight for the game controller.
>
> Seriously ... there's probably a BIG market for that one.
On the net, you can find anything, if your google-fu is good.
http://www.underash.net/
- start quote -
"When you live in middle-east you can’t avoid being part of the
image, as a development company we believe that we had to do our
share of responsibility in telling the story behind this conflict
and targeting youngsters who depend on video games and movies
(which always tell the counter side) to build their
acknowledgement about the world.
This game is suitable for 13+years age players, it contains
graphical violence and shooting at military personal models, it
does not includes shooting at civilians or abusing them, it does
not include suicide bombing or any terrorist simulation, level
contents are inspired by real stories of Palestinian people,
that were documented by United Nation records (1978-2004), west
bank and Gaza strip are occupied land according to UN law, and
military actions performed by local fighters against occupying
forces is considered eligible.
UnderSiege is about the modern history of Palestine and it
focuses on the lives of Palestinian family between 1999-2002
during the second Intifada. All levels are based on true stories
and we look forward to publish it all over the world on
PC/windows platform."
- end quote -
The site includes a free demo download, screenshots, and
teaser videos. I'm no connoisseur of FPS games, so I won't
judge it as to quality.
The development company, http://www.afkarmedia.com, produces
several other games. One, 'Quraish" (Arabic only website at
http://www.quraishgame.com) is a real-time strategy game
covering the early spread of Islam, and looks pretty
interesting. Screenshots at
http://www.quraishgame.com/quraish_download.htm
Peter Trei
Antonio E. Gonzalez
INVALID...@example.com.invalid (J.D. Baldwin) wrote:
>
>In the previous article, Peter Trei <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Indeed. How would we react to a (hypothetical, I think) Muslim
>> version, in which you converted infidels to the True Faith or
>> killed them?
>
>That one would probably cause violence in my own household, as my son
>and I would fight for the game controller.
>
>Seriously ... there's probably a BIG market for that one.
Not quite that, but in Command&Conquer Generals, the GLA (Global
Liberation Front) has the "Suicide Bomber" unit; further up the tech
tree, you can get the more advanced "Truck Bomb" unit . . .
--
- ReFlex76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between
looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
Mike Beede
Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
> On 2007-01-29, Mike Beede <be...@visi.com> wrote:
>
> > I read a little of it. I've never heard of her before. Apparently
> > she writes vampire books. Lots of vampire books. She seems
> > to be the Steven King of vampire books.
>
> Stephen King is the Stephen King of vampire books.
Yeah, whatever. I imagine he's going to post a big rant to
his web log about inconsiderate bastards that don't spell
his name right when using him as a standard of comparison.
If he'd start writing pornographic vampire stories
he wouldn't have these problems.
Mike Beede
Dann
@reader2.panix.com.
> Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
> paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
You have the coolest job in the world. And yes, I'm serious.
Regards,
Dann
Invid Fan
<deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ok, since we have some experts here, I have a question. In X-Play's
review of the Eragon game, the hosts tell the viewer that instead of
reading ripoffs of McCaffrey with "Idealistic boys psychically bonded
with dragons", you should read Mercedes Lackey's books about
"Idealistic lesbians psychically bonded to horses". Is this a good
recommendation? ^_^
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
James Nicoll
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
>In article <Xns98C9476F913F8d...@64.209.0.81>, Dann
><deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 30 Jan 2007, James Nicoll said the following in news:epnmr9$9ia$1
>> @reader2.panix.com.
>>
>> > Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
>> > paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
>>
>> You have the coolest job in the world. And yes, I'm serious.
>>
>Ok, since we have some experts here, I have a question. In X-Play's
>review of the Eragon game, the hosts tell the viewer that instead of
>reading ripoffs of McCaffrey with "Idealistic boys psychically bonded
>with dragons", you should read Mercedes Lackey's books about
>"Idealistic lesbians psychically bonded to horses". Is this a good
>recommendation? ^_^
That's unfair. Lackey also has weepy gay men psychically bonded
to magic horses as well. It's not like she's a one-note author or anything.
She is a very clear author, though. You will not have the slightest doubt
who the bad guys are.
I think, and I say this non-prejudicially, that if you aren't
13 and ideally a girl, you may have missed the window of opportunity for
Lackey. It's kind of like first encountering Ayn Rand at age 50: It won't
have the same impact as if you were an alienated, bright 14-year-old.
Of the two, Lackey is more modern in her sensibilities than
McCaffrey. There are definitely moments in McCaffrey that hark back to
the old days when slapping a woman around was just one early step in
courtship.
Paul L. Madarasz
perhaps among other things:
Now, see, if you were to shoot the *characters* in FOOB, you might
have something there.
--
"How 'bout cuttin' that rebop?"
-- S. Kowalski
ronniecat
>"You must either convert the people you meet to fans of FBOFW or
>kill them. Killing them costs you `fan points' which you can only
>regain by Mike's novel. Said president John Doe, "this is
>a pretty serious inducement to practice conversion. We haven't
>actually had any play testers adopt a long-term strategy involving
>killing."
Have the play testers read the novel yet?
ronnie
James Nicoll
will be addressed in an upcoming patch."
Invid Fan
<jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <310120071040130109%in...@localnet.com>,
> Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >In article <Xns98C9476F913F8d...@64.209.0.81>, Dann
> ><deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 30 Jan 2007, James Nicoll said the following in news:epnmr9$9ia$1
> >> @reader2.panix.com.
> >>
> >> > Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
> >> > paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
> >>
> >> You have the coolest job in the world. And yes, I'm serious.
> >>
> >Ok, since we have some experts here, I have a question. In X-Play's
> >review of the Eragon game, the hosts tell the viewer that instead of
> >reading ripoffs of McCaffrey with "Idealistic boys psychically bonded
> >with dragons", you should read Mercedes Lackey's books about
> >"Idealistic lesbians psychically bonded to horses". Is this a good
> >recommendation? ^_^
>
> That's unfair. Lackey also has weepy gay men psychically bonded
> to magic horses as well. It's not like she's a one-note author or anything.
> She is a very clear author, though. You will not have the slightest doubt
> who the bad guys are.
>
> I think, and I say this non-prejudicially, that if you aren't
> 13 and ideally a girl, you may have missed the window of opportunity for
> Lackey. It's kind of like first encountering Ayn Rand at age 50: It won't
> have the same impact as if you were an alienated, bright 14-year-old.
>
Lots of books are like that. I know the early Pern books wouldn't be
the same now, without the memory of reading them as a teen. I mean,
what geeky boy couldn't relate to Jaxom, who not only had a Dragon but
got the girl? :)
> Of the two, Lackey is more modern in her sensibilities than
> McCaffrey. There are definitely moments in McCaffrey that hark back to
> the old days when slapping a woman around was just one early step in
> courtship.
Even the strong women like being dominated, yes.
John Duncan Yoyo
I've read some Lackey but only really enjoyed the Diana Tregarde
stories about her witch detective.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
Default User
> In article <8bzvh.18576$w91....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Julia <juli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > I work at a used book store. Paranormal romance is one of our best
> > selling categories.
>
> Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
> paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
Did Wheeler do that to you?
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
James Nicoll
Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> In article <8bzvh.18576$w91....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> Julia <juli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > I work at a used book store. Paranormal romance is one of our best
>> > selling categories.
>>
>> Oh, sure. I see a lot of them for work, because I am the designated
>> paranormal romance reader for the SFBC.
>
>Did Wheeler do that to you?
>
for the SFBC.
Andrew did once send me a book specifically to torture me (He
said so in the cover letter) but it wasn't a paranormal romance. In
fact, I don't mind vampire-shaggers at all and I like the Kitty
Norville series in particular because of the recurring theme that
being unusual doesn't put one above or outside the law. This means
that where Anita Blake* would pull out two Desert Eagles and start
blazing away, Kitty is more likely to call her lawyer.
I will grant the situation in the first Kitty book is suboptimal
from a legal point of view but that pack is as much a guide to werewolf
behavior as motorcycle gangs are a guide to human behavior.
* Did you know that there is an Anita Blake comic?
http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2006/12/annotated-anita-blake-vampire-hunter.html
Mike Beede
Our lawyers have directed that direct questions about the novel
are not to be answered, since litigation is pending with their
heirs.
Mike Beede, Grease 'em For FBOFW Inc CEO
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntE...@aol.com>
wrote:
> Not quite that, but in Command&Conquer Generals, the GLA (Global
> Liberation Front) has the "Suicide Bomber" unit; further up the tech
> tree, you can get the more advanced "Truck Bomb" unit . . .
One of the very few computer games I've played more than once is
"Emperor: Battle for Dune" -- I'm not what you'd call into "Dune," but
the game is pretty cool. It has quite a few suicide units. My son
plays "Rome" and I'm pretty sure they have a suicide squad (which of
course makes me think instantly of "Life of Brian").
James Nicoll
J.D. Baldwin <ne...@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>In the previous article, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntE...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>> Not quite that, but in Command&Conquer Generals, the GLA (Global
>> Liberation Front) has the "Suicide Bomber" unit; further up the tech
>> tree, you can get the more advanced "Truck Bomb" unit . . .
>
>One of the very few computer games I've played more than once is
>"Emperor: Battle for Dune" -- I'm not what you'd call into "Dune," but
>the game is pretty cool. It has quite a few suicide units. My son
>plays "Rome" and I'm pretty sure they have a suicide squad (which of
>course makes me think instantly of "Life of Brian").
The old Avalon Hill board game had a particularly bloody combat
system: the two combatants designated the number of soldiers they were
willing to see die. The one who picked the larger number lost that number
and won while the player who picked the lower number lost all of his units
in that battle and lost the battle as well.
Mark Jackson
> In article <epsm3f$p9c$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> J.D. Baldwin <ne...@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >In the previous article, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntE...@aol.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Not quite that, but in Command&Conquer Generals, the GLA (Global
> >> Liberation Front) has the "Suicide Bomber" unit; further up the tech
> >> tree, you can get the more advanced "Truck Bomb" unit . . .
> >
> >One of the very few computer games I've played more than once is
> >"Emperor: Battle for Dune" -- I'm not what you'd call into "Dune," but
> >the game is pretty cool. It has quite a few suicide units. My son
> >plays "Rome" and I'm pretty sure they have a suicide squad (which of
> >course makes me think instantly of "Life of Brian").
>
> The old Avalon Hill board game had a particularly bloody combat
> system: the two combatants designated the number of soldiers they were
> willing to see die. The one who picked the larger number lost that number
> and won while the player who picked the lower number lost all of his units
> in that battle and lost the battle as well.
Which game was that? I played, or at least looked at, many AH games in
my youth (starting with Tactics II) and I don't remember any such
system.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
I'd love to see a fine painting by Titian or Leonardo
that was really silly - a Venus with false nose and
glasses and duck feet. - B[ernard] Kliban
James Nicoll
Mark Jackson <mjac...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>> In article <epsm3f$p9c$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>> J.D. Baldwin <ne...@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >In the previous article, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntE...@aol.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> Not quite that, but in Command&Conquer Generals, the GLA (Global
>> >> Liberation Front) has the "Suicide Bomber" unit; further up the tech
>> >> tree, you can get the more advanced "Truck Bomb" unit . . .
>> >
>> >One of the very few computer games I've played more than once is
>> >"Emperor: Battle for Dune" -- I'm not what you'd call into "Dune," but
>> >the game is pretty cool. It has quite a few suicide units. My son
>> >plays "Rome" and I'm pretty sure they have a suicide squad (which of
>> >course makes me think instantly of "Life of Brian").
>>
>> The old Avalon Hill board game had a particularly bloody combat
>> system: the two combatants designated the number of soldiers they were
>> willing to see die. The one who picked the larger number lost that number
>> and won while the player who picked the lower number lost all of his units
>> in that battle and lost the battle as well.
>
>Which game was that? I played, or at least looked at, many AH games in
>my youth (starting with Tactics II) and I don't remember any such
>system.
>
It had this cover:
http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/dunebox.jpg